Surviving Spiritual Abuse: What the Church Won’t Say

Music Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at William-Branham.org, and with me I have my very special guest, Naomi Wright, founder of Beam Bolden.

Naomi, it's good to have you back on here. We did a series of podcasts a long time ago, and they were so much fun going through all of the questions that everybody had, and anyway, I wanted to reconnect with you and find out how things are going, and talk about Beam Bolden, and all of the things that goes on behind the scenes, because not many people are aware, if you reach out to my website for help, there are certain kinds of things that I can help, with answers and finding history, that sort of thing.

But when it gets into the spiritual abuse, that's where I usually call Naomi or send her an email and connect people. So, good to put a face to the people who are being connected behind the scenes and invite anybody else who is looking for help and spiritual abuse to reach out to me or reach out to Naomi.

So, welcome back. Thanks. Yeah, it's been a long time. We were just reminiscing about that. I'm like, gosh, I remember sitting on a floor in our apartment, mine and Michael's apartment, and you were propped up on an Ottoman.

We try to record this because we were out in the middle of nowhere and we have the world's worst internet. And so, that's how we recorded that series. Yeah, and I was, a lot of people don't know.

So, in this recording studio, it was not a studio at that time. Back behind me, there's a little closet. And I had purchased a lot of soundproofing equipment and put all of that into a closet.

And I was like, huddled down in this dark, scary place when you were recording with me. You were, because you put that background on where it was like, what, someone is star worst thing or something like that, but yeah, look how far we've come.

We have actual chairs and spaces that you can move around in. It's amazing how far we've come. And the funny part is, you know, even then, I really had no idea that it was going to last as long as it did.

I think I had the conversation with you. I've actually walked away from this quite a few times and I tried to, whenever I was walking away in the past, I would try to set up enough research that anybody who is connected into branemism could look at the research.

and there's plenty to escape. And then what would happen, the cult would attack and bring it all down. And so then my exit strategy was gone, so I'd be forced to come back. And then recently, we started connecting it to all of these other movements.

And some of the big ones, International House of Prayer and Kansas City, when we found out that that was essentially Brannemism 2.0 and so much began to develop from that. I started having people contact me where I don't have research information yet published.

So now that's into hyperdrive. I'm trying to quickly create resources for people. And I don't know that there will ever be an exit strategy. Yeah, I don't know if there'll be a strategy other than just like, poof, he's gone.

Where'd he go? I'm not telling. I won't tell. I'll keep your secret. So tell us a little bit about being bolden. You have been actively working. You're a lot busier than me, which is kind of hard to do for anybody who doesn't know how busy I can get.

Things have been developing on your end. What is new with being boldened? Ooh, when we first started, okay. So when you and I first met and we started talking, I think we were just getting our mentoring services going.

I think the organization was only maybe a year old. And I think we had only been really a fully formed organization for a matter of months. So we've grown a lot throughout those four years.

Our mentoring services have blown up. We have two other mentors on the team now, which is incredible. They're incredible. And that's kind of a slow thing. Like, I just have to meet people along the way, really get to know them, get to really trust each other.

Like, no, okay, this is going to be a good fit. Because it's really scary to say, oh, yeah, talk with this person. You know that. You know, we had to get to know each other.

You're like, oh, like, who am I referring them to? And I'm still scared of her, by the way. Yeah. Oh, my, all good reasons. So that's been really incredible. We also have a month to month for people who want to gather with others in a very safe, low-risk way.

So for all of us who have been through spiritual abuse, bread-em-ism, or other, charismatic, or other, you know, hyper-charismatic or other, not coming at Kira's media when it's healthy, just when it's full of it.

So for anyone who's like, okay, yeah, I want to dip my toe back in. I want to try to practice this rebuilding trusting. And but I want to do it in a really low-risk environment.

I still want some psycho-education and things like that because I'm learning. And so we have that option for people. We have resources for churches at this point. We just launched our second digital course.

Our third has already done. It's coming out in the fall. And we have our first in-person conference in severe ill-tenancy in September of this year. So I know this will... about there forever for the rest of time, because it's gonna be such a golden episode.

But this is 2025 that we're talking about here. So September 12th and 13th, 2025 for anyone who is wanting to gather again in a low-risk way. We're taking an approach that I haven't really seen much of and is very close to my heart, which is a trauma-informed approach to having these conversations.

It's important in all of the work that we do at Be Emboldened, but I think it's also important when we actually get people in a room. So we're gonna have things like weighted blankets and coloring books and you can stand up and move around and floor seating and some rocking chairs and not just that more corporate feel for a conference, more like we're sitting together and having a conversation.

So I'm looking forward to that. We have, I think, seven different presenters. There's eight on our website, but I think it's because they slapped my face on there and I'm not presenting. I'm seeing, so I was like, I don't think my face should have been.

I think the webmaster just liked that it was even with four and four was like, I don't actually belong in that lineup. So I think there's seven. And yeah, tickets are still open for that.

We also have some scholarships available that have come available for anyone who maybe has a need there, but we also looked for a location that would kind of balance out the fact that this is a, not the most fun stuff to be talking about.

So we're like, well, let's set it up. So it can be a family vacay and there's an indoor water park that just got a $40 million renovation on it and it's right by the entrance to the Smoky Mountains National Park.

And so it's just a really good spot to be able to come and also blow off some steam, have some fun, get out into nature. If you're like me and you find that helpful and be able to bring the family and stuff.

So that's a big thing for us. I did not have hosting a conference on my radar, but I also did not have being bolted on my radar five years ago or five and a half years ago.

So I'm super, I feel really, really privileged to be able to, to, I mean, all of the people John that we've gotten to meet at this point in this work. I mean, we meet the best people.

We do. And it's funny because you organize things so well. It's different from what I would have ever expected. I would picture a gathering of ex cult members to be kind of like a five-step program.

Hi, my name is John. I was in a cult and people go around the room, but what you're describing is actually a good and helpful thing. I've had people who went to some of the gatherings that you have and I've attended a couple and people get to know each other and they are really good people.

And some of the people, it's really sad because you watch how the cult has robbed so much of their lives. And then after they're able to get free and get themselves established, it's this mixed emotion because they're moving on in life.

They're starting to experience new things and things that they were not allowed to. But there's always this. anchor that reminds them of their past, and unless you can get over that, unless you can get over that weight that you're going to carry around in the rest of your life, some people are just suffering from it.

So watching people overcome that suffering is, I don't know, about you, but for me it's just, it touches me and I get emotional because of that. So everything that you're describing is very helpful to a lot of people.

It is an incredible experience to get to see, like I said, I really do feel like it's a privilege to get to see other people who, who go through this and they don't have to go through it alone, I think a lot of us have needed to go through it alone because we just didn't know anybody else at the time or we didn't know how to figure out like who was safe or who to trust and things like that.

And to be able to have a resource and have a conversation and be like, okay, this person also gets it, they're not looking at me like I have three heads. They're not trying to rush me like a back into something.

There's this agenda of like, you got to be back in church on Sunday or you got, you know, it's like, no, where are you at and where are you trying to go and then how do we come alongside you to assist you in getting there?

So that's our approach. And I think that's critical because not everybody is ready yet even to go back to church. I know several people that I know, they just can't, they can't go through that emotional turmoil that they have sitting just sitting in a pew.

I still from time to time, I don't go that often because I have these triggers and I'll be sitting. I remember the last real hard trigger they hit me was during an Easter service and it was such a simple uplifting, awesome sermon about Easter.

I mean, you shouldn't be triggered by this, right? But all he did was mention that one single verse that one of the verses that was commonly used in the cult as loaded language triggered all of that loaded language in my head and I was ready to explode.

And I know that there are people who are suffering like that because I still do and I still from time to time have that and not everybody is ready to jump back in and understanding that I think is helpful.

I do take an issue, I have people who are of the opposite opinion, they think, well, the way to help somebody to get them back in church and get them under their proper authority.

And I'm like, you don't really understand how this works, right? Speaking of which, I think we should probably spend some time on that. What are the things that are your pet peeves and all of this that you do?

Well, that would be one of them. Absolutely. Proper authority. Okay. Who is the proper authority? Let's slow down and ask that question. What does it mean then to be under that authority? And can you remove their authority?

Can you get out from under there? I mean, there's just a lot of questions that go on with that. And anyone who's out there cl- Meaming. Okay, I'm your authority. I think it's really similar to someone who has to walk around and talk about how mature they are or talk about how humble they are.

You're like, I'm pretty sure mature humble people don't actually say that. And I think people that may be warrant any sort of influence in your life, probably are not demanding that they have influence in your life.

And let's your four. Okay, like I mean, that's, we're different, right, we're talking about adults. I'm the most humble person that you've ever met. Right? I've heard people say this and it's like, you know, and that's one of the things that really gets you.

Whenever you escape something like this, the central figures of most of the cults that have emerged from this nonsense. Anybody who is still in the cult, they will say, no, this person is not like this.

This is the most humble man ever or female, there are some female cult leaders. This is the most humble female ever who also claim to be that they were the next thing to God.

Yeah, they're so humble, but they're one of the two witnesses or they're whatever it may be. It's like, okay, another one that's been bugging me lately is this phrase from scripture about like being in the world but not of it.

And how none of these high control groups remember the being in it park? Yeah. I was like, why is, why ain't anybody in it anymore? Where'd everybody go? Yeah, you know, and that bothers me too.

There are people who, whenever they leave the cult, they want to experience the things that they've never, ever experienced. And granted, all that said, there has to be some balance so don't get me wrong when I say this.

But many times I will watch somebody leave a cult and then they will experience things that most teenagers might enjoy. And for example, one of the things that I do is I'll go out to Arcade Room and I'll take the boys and we're playing these old quarter machines.

I don't know if you remember them from the 80s because that was one of the things that was taboo in the cult. Interestingly, my father was a champion, miss Pac-Man player, so he loved those things but going into an actual arcade, it was this, I don't know, it was this double standard because I would be preached, don't do this.

But then if there was ever a miss Pac-Man machine, we were right there. But physically going into an arcade is taboo. And here, it's like 15 miles from my house. They have this awesome place where you walk in and there's two levels of every single arcade game that you can imagine from the 1980s.

And so I'll go do this because this is something that I didn't get to experience. And I have seen people who are working with spiritual leaders, so-called spiritual leaders who some of them have good intentions, but they don't want to...

They want to put so many restraints on their experience that they're really controlling the narrative. And so the people can't really find their own footing. And my advice whenever I see something like this is think back to when you were a teenager, if you were never in this, look at the mistakes you made.

But yet you're experiencing things that these people never have. So they're going to make some mistakes. They're going to do some things that probably is not helpful. And that's how you learn. You learn from your mistakes.

So I'm a little bit different than my peers and that I think people should have their own journey with enough restraint not to get into trouble. Sure. Yes, we, and I think I would piggyback this on it a little bit of a different kind of concept, but I think they relate.

There is so much worry I see in family members, which I get it. Like to be a loved one with a family member who's going through something difficult or has gotten involved in a high control group or is coming out and they're kind of like, okay, where are they going to land?

Or like I get when you love and care for someone and you're not sure what exactly is going on with them like that's scary and it's stressful. And I remember actually, my husband has spoken about that because we got married.

And four months later I realized I had been raised in an apocalyptic doomsday cult, you know? And I hadn't really known what to do with all that yet. And he was concerned. He's like, well, I don't, I don't know who she's going to end up being now.

And I married her already. So what's going to happen? Which is really like terrifying looking back on it. At the time I was just like, I'm going to be fine. Don't worry about it.

But in retrospect, I'm like, dang, like that. That's an unfortunate situation to find yourself in. And I know there's others out there who have, but when people are their figuring stuff out, they're getting to do things that they haven't done before.

And I agree with you, like we're not saying whatever it is that would be, we're going to harming themselves. But we're getting to have these experiences that really are not actually a problem most likely.

Then I don't think we have to be so worried about the timeline. Like we can just settle in and have a sense of patience of if someone is saying that they believe in God and God is omniscient, omnipresent.

And supposedly Jesus is like coming back soon. It's been 2,000 years already. Like it gives us an idea of timeline, like patience. And it's okay to let people have time to figure this out.

We don't have to be so worried about it. If they are wanting to move forward in a certain direction, then they're going to move forward in that direction. It's just going to be not totally linear.

There's going to be some ducking and some moving around and some obstacles and stuff like that. that. And I remember reassuring Michael of that when I was like, yeah, I'm not going to church. I'm not going to a small group. Oh, my goodness. That really made me want to come out of my skin. I was like, no one's going to tell me that these are my people.

I'm going to co-find my own people and gather them. Well, now it sounds like I'm a cult leader. Okay. I don't mean it was that either. I'm just going to make my own friends.

Okay. I'm going to make my own friends and then we'll hang out and go to the movies. So that was what I needed to do. That's what I could do. That's what was actually available to me. My nervous system was not going to allow anything else. And there's some legit neuroscience that goes along with that. But yeah, so I think I have hair on my mouth.

But I think John, just piggybacking on what you were saying, like, we don't have to be so worried. Either it's going to be okay. And that's one of those other pet peeves actually that I'll add before you jump back in. And I remember actually being a teenager and these were some of those, like, first things I caught with my dad where I'm like, hmm, this seems off. Like, not that I wished we had been more evangelistic because that would have been really unfortunate in retrospect. If we had the one true true, the why on earth weren't we telling anybody? And then

two, if God was everywhere and he was all powerful, why couldn't I travel? And if I traveled, I'd like, missed the rapture. Like, wouldn't he know where I am? And just so you guys know, anyone who listens to this, I'm saying this as a Christian, like, I'm not trying to be a reticle or be flippant about God and His word in the Christian faith. I'm not. I mean, flippant about some of the beliefs that I had been raised with that are so contradictory to what I actually even see in scripture. I'm like, wow, you know, some of these things

just don't actually make sense together. And so let's go ahead and question them. And that would be, again, those are a couple other little examples that started for me as a teen. But now, okay, if he loves us and all these things are true and he knows and he's patient and he's faithful and he's in someone is seeking, then we can relax and just show up for them and be a, be a companion through it. Well, and to piggyback on your piggyback, the one of the things that really bothers me, we escaped this cult and the cult was overly controlling manipulative and you could catch this

accidental demon. You could walk along, say something, do something and accidentally get a demon and you got to come back to the church and we're going to cast it out of you. I don't know.

Like he's done some dog poo. It's like, yeah, it's crazy. And whenever I left this thing, I've read the Bible over and over and over and over again, lost count of the times, just cover to cover, just to wash it all out of my head. And there were passages that really shook the way that I had built my foundation. My foundation was wrong. One of them was Colossians too. So this is a world that is filled with pagan practices. And I don't know what it looked like back to in child sacrifice. There was all kinds of bad evil things. And in Colossians 2, Paul

says that we've got his conquered these principalities. And therefore, no man judge you when you eat, drink, I'm going off of memory here, respect to a holiday or a new moon or a Sabbath.

What he's describing are pagan festivals. If you really understand what's happening in the region in this area. And he's telling them that you're not going to catch an accidental demon. And he's specifically writing to people who are trying to be as overbearing as some of the people in religion were to us. One of my pet peeves is that whenever somebody escapes this, I have found that a lot of that type of mentality has crept into even mainstream churches. And they want to be overbearing and try to stop them from catching the accidental demon.

And it just bothers me to know in because it's your God powerless. That's usually what I ask them is your God powerless to protect you over this. And I've been trying to think of a good example one that somebody won't pick up because I don't want to single anybody out. But say hypothetically that in my arcade, I'm there, I'm playing a game. And one of these people comes in and says, oh, did you realize that there's a Hindu symbol on the side of this arcade game? You're going to you're going to catch a demon. You're entertaining the demons. This is a literal thing that has happened

to me and even some of my co-hosts. People who are in mainstream religion or cares mania say, did you know that this symbol you're wearing, this symbol that you're touching, that is some pagan practice. It's wica, it's Hindu, it's whatever. And they go to such extremes like I'm not worshiping, if I'm playing this game, I'm not worshiping the Hindu gods, right? But if you go back to Colossians and you understand what Paul is saying here, don't let those people ruin your lives. Go have fun. God is protecting you. You can eat the meat that has been sacrificed

to the idols. That's how open this was. But people have tried to add these restraints. And that really bothers me. And we see that all the way back in Scripture too, where Paul actually rebukes Peter for adding a restriction. Peter of all people, I mean, that's pretty bold.

So it's not new, right? And I think what's interesting about it to me is the leaders who are saying these things are claiming that they are so knowledgeable about Scripture. And yet they're missing so much. Another example that comes to mind for me, that gets me and I am actually gonna read it because I think it's worth actually reading.

We hear so much about Matthew 18 and we hear so much about their being division, people causing division if we're gonna speak up about something which is what you and I are literally doing right now.

So I think this is really relevant. Okay, we're speaking out about problems in the church. Really part of the church, not part of the church. I don't know, I mean, I have opinions on that, but whether it's a high control call or it's whomever's falling, you has come out of like I hop or something like that as well.

More of the care is hyper charismatic movement, new apostolic reformation movement. We get told, okay, you're speaking up and so you're causing division, you're now the problem. And it's also like the Trump sin somehow.

Like, well, you're speaking up and you cause division. So you just trumped child abuse. Like whatever it is, like this is the worst. And so now we're just gonna nullify everything that you have to say, like your testimony is thrown out.

And I just wanna point out for everyone that if you haven't come across it recently,

cause I had not and I was reminded of it. I'm like, oh my goodness, I need this one at the ready all the time. First, I'm at the five, 17 through 21. And so this is also a disclaimer that I'm actually gonna read this.

So trigger warning for anyone who might not benefit from having this read to you. I am gonna read it in the NIV though, not in the KJV. So if you feel you must pray for me, go ahead, but I'll also say that it might be less triggering because I'm reading in the NIV.

So I'm doing it on purpose. You're going to catch the NIV demon. Should I do the ESV? Like which one is everyone? Okay. So you can go pull it up in the KJV if that's more comfortable, but I think it might be less triggering for some of I don't read that one.

So the elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. First scripture says, do not muzzle an ox while it's shredding on the grain and the worker deserves his wages.

Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. There's more about what is a witness. So like if someone is claiming that they were abused and then they're showing signs of like trauma, those signs of trauma would also be another witness.

This is not literally multiple people have to be there. Like say a child is abused, probably nobody else was there. But if you then see the child is acting out differently, they're saying certain thing, then okay, no, that's another indicator, that's another kind of witness to what has happened.

So I just want to clarify that quickly. But those elders who are sinning, you are to reprove before everyone so that others may take warning. charge you in the sight of God and Christ Jesus, and they elect angels to keep these instructions without partiality and to do nothing out of favoritism.

So this definitely is saying, if you just like the guy, you have some sort of allegiance or loyalty to the guy, and this could be a girl too, so I'm just saying guy because I'm thinking of William Brenham at the moment.

But it doesn't matter, this isn't supposed to be partial. We're not supposed to be showing favoritism here. If something has been wrong, then we're supposed to say it as loud as what was said wrong.

And again, all this like you're causing division, everyone has to be quiet, like it's just constant. And it's exhausting, some like you guys, like, and I'm not talking to your audience. So when I'm saying you guys, I'm not talking to all of you who are watching and listening, I'm talking bigger picture when I'm seeing comments on being Bolden's videos, comments on your videos, comments on, all the videos of everyone out there right now who's speaking to these things of your causing division.

What are you doing? You need to sit down and be quiet. It says in the Bible that we shouldn't. And if we didn't have social media, we wouldn't be posting it on social media.

If all of these people weren't putting their sermons and their false teachings and abusing people behind the scenes and putting it on social media, we wouldn't have to say it this loud, but they are, so we do have to say it this loud.

So that's another pet peeve right now. Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation?

You can learn this and more on William Brannum Historical Research's website, William-Brannum.org. On the book's page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon and others, with links to the paper, audio and digital versions of each book.

You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top.

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Many of the things that we go through behind the scenes, not many people who have escaped this are aware. And people who are on the outside looking in are have never experienced, they have no concept of what it is that we go through trying to help people.

We face quite a bit of resistance trying to help people. And even from the people we're trying to help, sometimes we have resistance from those people. And it gets really interesting because you've probably had this too.

I've had people who fought me tooth and nail for no reason, you know, like I don't actively go after people and say, hey, you need to leave the call. But what happens is they stumble.

will pull my research and then they start wanting to fight with me because unfortunately that's how they were programmed. The cults program you to fight with somebody who challenges your opinion mentally you can't help it and I understand that.

So they start fighting with me and I just simply, I don't fight back, I don't engage in arguments but if they ask a question I will answer it truthfully and whenever they look at my answer and eventually come to the conclusion, wait a minute.

What John's saying is actually true, some of them wake up and then they later come back and they apologize for how they behaved and my answer is always simply there's no need for apology.

I was the same way when I was indoctrinated in the cults but people have no idea what we go through on a day-to-day basis that waking up every morning to hate mail isn't as fun as some people might think.

Yes, and it's not true that it never has a wearing effect, like it can be tiring, you know, we need breaks and one of the other things that is like a consistent battle to have to push back on and continue to educate on and again I say all of this from like I get it just like you're saying John, like we get it, like we've been there too and I'm not speaking to the survivors who are kind of wrestling through like what's okay and what's not okay and feeling a lot of that pressure and a lot of that fear of endless empathy

and compassion, I know exactly what that feels like and exactly how long it can hang around and it can pop its head back up and it is a difficult, difficult journey to take on.

And for those though who are teaching this stuff and are still teaching it, not those who were teaching it or like oh wait, maybe I shouldn't and let me re-evaluate and then share what I've learned, those who are perpetuating all of it who are coming at the idea of someone actually getting help at all, like don't talk to anyone who's trained, don't talk to anyone who's licensed, don't talk to anyone who's a professional, don't talk to anyone outside of your group, don't get another perspective, right, that like information control so that we can have better thought, behavior control and so no mental health, let's not

talk about mental health, let's only use the scriptures and pretend that we haven't learned anything in 2000 years about neuroscience, about how in the framework of a Christian, how the Lord designed our brains and our bodies to function.

We get to learn about that, it's cool, it's really cool stuff, it's really interesting stuff and it helps us a lot actually in helping others, like this is a lot of good solid information where we can be more effective and are helping, it's not just like well intentioned helping, it could be effective helping.

We come up against a good amount of that too, people are there's afraid and again I understand the fear I'm frustrated by the teaching that is being perpetuated that's causing that fear because it keeps people isolated in their pain and their grief and their confusion and their suffering and oftentimes can also then keep them at least somewhat tethered to what was back there that they were trying to get out of because they don't have support to work it through.

So I see it as such a control tactic that can really just linger for someone even when they have taken steps away. There was a good friend of mine who used to say that there are some people who are so heavenly minded they are no earthly good or they're so earthly minded that they are no heavenly good and this was his simple way of saying that people need balance which is something that I've come to the same conclusion as I get older in life.

But one of the things that you hit on and I want to hit even harder, the problem that I see that exists in the cult world and non-cult world is that there are a lot of people who are in the position to help former cult members who don't want to take the time to understand how their brains work. Understand the psychology behind it, understand how you help them. It's not that you can help them in the same way that you help everybody else in your congregation.

There are different techniques and methods that you really have to focus your attention to understand and they don't want to take the time to do it unfortunately. And so what happens is if they're a minister or they're in an elder in a church who are trying to help these people often what they do is they fall back to well let's look at the Bible and see what the Bible says about this and they try to make it a one-size-fits-all every passage can apply to today's world but it doesn't and that's really the problem here. I get often attacked because of

going after and exposing the histories that have been covered up by some of these so-called super apostles or prophets or whatever and one of the common attacks is well you don't need to do this we have the Bible and if they read Corinthians they would know that this same problem has existed since the days of Paul the same problem existed. That's partially true but what didn't exist back then was a generator of cults that generated thousands of super apostles and prophets all around the globe because you only find Paul writing it to one letter to one city.

He didn't write the same letter of super apostles to the whole world so I have to believe that it wasn't as widespread as it is today but more to the point some of the problems we face today are for things that didn't exist in the Bible times like if you're wanting a sermon and on how your children might be, I don't know, use the phone and get technology and connect to somebody who might be a predator, you're not gonna find that in the Bible, they didn't have a phone back then, they didn't have this technology,

not everything fits and not everything applies. But if you try to use that mindset, rather than understand how a person who is in a cult thinks, the problems that they face on a day-to-day basis, understand the triggers they have, understand just the struggles they have in general, of even some of them even coming to church, if you don't take that leap, but instead you try to beat them over the head with the Bible even further, what happens is you push people away from Christianity altogether.

And I see this, we've talked about in one of our episodes, we talked about revictimization, which is a huge problem, but think of the opposite problem of that, somebody who leaves a cult, who has been beating them over the head with the Bible forever, go into a mainstream church and find somebody who just really isn't willing to understand how the cult mindset works to give them proper help, and instead tries to beat them over the head further, you're pushing people away.

Absolutely. And something that I very much care about is being a support to the church, recognizing they don't, when I'm talking about different local bodies, I'm not talking like Big C church, I realize I'm a part of that.

When I'm talking about is those local gatherings, those buildings that we go to, whether it's home church, whatever that building looks like, but for them to have someone to reach out to, recognizing that requires that humility word of, I'm not fully informed, and so either I want to get informed so that we can do more for our congregation or I want to bring someone else in from a different organization who can help the person who needs help or the people who need help.

And that's something I really care about offering it, something that we've started offering over the past year, so it's a newer service, but the goal is that people learn. I love the education piece, and I love when people actually want to know because it is nuanced, it is complex, like there are complexities, like I recognize like I was tricky.

I have a card for Michael, I haven't given him to it, given it to him yet, because I don't know if it's actually been relevant yet in our relationship of 12 years, but it's a Rubik's cube on the front, and it says I've been difficult.

I should have given him that card so many times. So I know it's hard, it's difficult to figure out how to come alongside someone in a way that's actually helpful, like one, cut the platitudes, like...

Will it be okay? I mean, hopefully it will actually be okay, but it's not great to hear that when I'm not okay so things like that but It's it's gonna take yeah, it's gonna take time It's gonna take time and it's gonna take a lot of compassion and It's also gonna take action at times. You know, just okay. How do we show up for people and Having someone to reach out to to be like, okay, what do I do?

And that's something else I get to do to be emboldened that is really fun for me As when I'm in contact with families Loved ones friends who are like, okay, I have this person in my life and I want to do this well How can I do this well and being able to help equip them to be able to is just really fulfilling?

Yeah, that's really good one of the most common emails that I get from people who are on the outside looking in is in fact I just got one yesterday. We have a Email some similar to this we have a new family who just moved into the neighborhood Turns out they're brand of might so I went in and I saw the halo photograph. I saw all of this stuff What scriptures can I use to help them see the truth and It's such a hard conversation because you have to mentally Untangle the person who's actually trying to help mentally untangle what's in their thoughts and in their head and help them to understand that

You may read that same passage to a person who's programmed in a cult and you're thinking you're saying one thing But they're hearing something entirely different because they've been programmed and manipulated and the words that you're saying don't register Just simply put they don't register And so you have to understand you have to teach them as as I respond to these you have to teach them first how to start Communicating how to open up a dialogue how to get below the surface of that cult identity that is so blocking of any You know information that doesn't agree with the cult leader you have to go through all of those levels

Which is a lot of work and then once you're down to the authentic person once you actually start engaging then The part that people often miss is they want to have an argument or a debate To try to convince them by showing them something that they can't deny But once you go through all those layers if you do a debate or an argument Then suddenly the cult identity is it blocks it all so you actually have to plant seeds of truth while not engaging in a debate So it's a very difficult process and One of the one of the reasons why I wanted to vent my pet peeves is because I don't think many people understand how difficult that actually is on a day-to-day basis and

People like you and I who are engaging Others who are either intercult or others who are wanting to help a cult It's not simply that we can just respond in a single answer it goes through Chains of back and forth with emails and phone conversations and sometimes I meet people for coffee who are wanting to help cult members to try to educate them how you do that process.

And there are resources out there like Dr. Stephen Hesson's Freedom of Mind Foundation. I think he has some master classes you can go through, but it takes work to do that. And sadly, people who want to help who are in some of the churches, they want to help more for, I don't know, the prestige of being able to say, hey, I helped this person out of a cult, rather than actually doing the homework that it takes to engage a person.

So one of my pet peeves is just how do we, and I'm asking this rhetorically, how do we get the people who are wanting to help to go through that process of engaging, of learning, of understanding.

And I have to feel like conferences like you're describing that you're about to host. I have to feel that those conferences would probably help. I think so. I hope so. It's relational. That's a word that comes to mind as I'm hearing you share, John.

Like there's such a relational element. And I would have smelled a disingenuous one a mile away. Like if someone, if I felt like I was a project, a case study, someone had a motive of getting me out when I wasn't ready to get out.

Oh, I mean, I've been taught a lot about those kinds of people, right? I mean, I've been well-worned. So that was going to be a hard pass. Like, no, I've got to run yours.

Those are far beyond the accidental demon. Those were the actual demons. Right. Yes. That was not just I stepped in some dog poo. It's you are the dog poo. Like I got to get away from you.

So it's not going to work. It has to be for real. And yes. So for those who want to learn more and they want to better understand this audience, again, you're just not going to meet better people.

I truly believe. I mean, I know people, I have people I could visit all over the world at this point. And I would love to. I want to do a world tour at some point, get to go see everybody.

But my goodness, I'm like, I just just lovely, lovely people. And so whenever I hear pushback from other places, there are some pockets within the Christian community who would think, oh, you're not going to church.

You're not doing this or whatever. And they would be very worried. And just like these people are, they're getting after it and we do not have to worry. I mean, we can learn from them truly.

And it's, again, it's a privilege and it's an honor. And so yeah, going back to the conference, I would love to see some more people coming from your neck of the woods. Because I have conversations with people from all of these different groups.

There's always going to be a special place in my heart for people who have come from a message-related background. So yeah, if anyone wants to come, reach out. If anyone has questions- Again, we have some scholarships that have opened up that I'm excited to be able to help people out with, and yeah, I would love to be able to meet everyone.

It's also going to be small enough. It's our first year doing this. It's going to be not so small that it's scary intimate, but it's going to be small enough for like, you're actually going to get to chat with presenters and I'll get to say hi and, you know, it's not like, you just walk in and you sit in the really hard uncomfortable chairs and you don't even get to talk to anybody.

Well, I'm excited for you. I'm excited for all of the things that you're doing to help people and I know that I've had many people who have been working with you, who have contacted me and said, how much it has helped them and I'm very glad that you're doing what you're doing.

So thank you so much for doing it. Oh my goodness. Absolutely. Thank you for being who you are and being diligent in what you're doing and not giving up but taking breaks, take breaks, continue to take breaks, they're good.

And yes, I know my husband's going to watch us be like, damn, we take breaks and for helping because it's through people like you who are so genuine, like good people who care that help build the trust for people and say, oh, yeah, like, let's go see what being bold and doing them like, oh, okay, yeah, this is helpful.

And then we get to actually help. So I wouldn't be able to help any of them if you weren't out there being true to who you are. So thank you for that, John. And I remember actually when I got your phone call and it was like, oh my goodness.

It's working. Something like, I'm actually going to get to talk to people, I'm actually going to get to come alongside people and, oh my goodness, a few years later, it's crazy. It's crazy what has happened and it's been fun to be a part of it with you.

It has been a fun journey. We've vented all of our frustrations. I don't know that I have too many more frustrations, but beyond that, it's been a pleasant journey and helping people, like you say, it's the big thing.

That's really why I do everything that I do and I know that's why you do it as well. So I'm very glad to have met you and connected and if anybody wants to go back and listen to our free and clear podcast, you can go check those out.

We talk through several different questions and issues that people have and if you want to go to Naomi's conference, Naomi, where can they go to find more information? If you go to beembolden.com and you can just click from there, you'll see conference right up at the top or if you want to do the forward slash L-O-F because it's called the Living Out Freedom Conference.

So beembolden.com slash L-O-F. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for doing this. It was fun. We get to record about pet peeves. Well, you're probably like, well, never because it's probably not a great idea.

But we did and we hope all of you have enjoyed it. We're sure you have your own pet peeves as well. And again, they were not directed at you, the survivor. they're directed at what is happening out there that continues to make it harder for us to do what we're doing. And you, all of us survivors, to do the hard work of healing and rebuilding that we are trying to do. So we are in your corner. Thank you for letting us be a part of it.

Absolutely. Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at www.William-brandom.org and www.bmboldens.com. For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR. Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.