John Wimber & the New Apostolic Reformation: The Hidden History

Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at William-Branham.org, and with me I have my co-host, researcher, minister, and friend Charles Paisley, the founder of Christian Gospel Church.org, and the author of come out of her, my people. Charles, I'm a little excited for today's episode. We have in our revival history series walk through from the early origins of Pentecostalism and some events that happened before all the way through the rise of the latter reign and into the birth of the charismatic movement, but

today we're getting into the birth of the new apostolic reformation. And a lot of people don't realize how early it actually started. They see Peter Wagner as the one who named it much later after it already had existed, but even Wagner admitted this thing already exists. I just put a name to what people are calling it, and then he rebranded basically the latter reign movement, but they shifted some doctrinal elements. So what happened is by and large, the charismatic didn't pick up what they were doing, the doctrines had shifted, but it essentially was the framework that was laid down by

latter reign that enabled the authoritarian control of apostles, prophets, etc. And today we're talking about the origins of how this really developed into the new apostolic reformation. There is a book that I recommend anyone read who is interested in this history. Charles and I aren't really inventing anything new. This is all documented, but one of the best books that was recommended to me was the new apostolic reformation history of a modern charismatic movement by John Weaver. Great book, it walks you through a lot of this history. They obviously did not have all of the random history that Charles and I have laid down. Whenever Weaver wrote it,

had the information from us, I'm sure the book would have taken a much larger thicker form because there's so much to go through. But today we get to talk about the birth of latter reign 2.0, which everybody else in the world knows as the new apostolic reformation. That's a great introduction, John. And I also am in some ways looking forward to recording today. You know, as I kind of already said in the last two episodes, as we've started down this arc, there isn't, within me, a reluctance to record this topic for a variety of reasons,

which is part of the reason I've avoided. going too deeply into this stuff for, you know, for the years that we've been doing these podcast series. But I still have that same reluctance today. And part of my reluctance is just the complex legacy of some of the figures in this movement. John Wimber, who will talk about quite a fair bit today, being one of those people with a particularly complex legacy. And it's just very hard to approach these complex movements and complex legacies and just short little one hour episodes. And even though we're probably going to record

through four or five on it, we're probably not going to really cover all the nuance and complexity in it. And for me, as we go through these things, and as I wrote in chapter 10 in my book, I'm out of my people volume two, where I examine these things, it's primarily an exercise for me in identifying the other branches of the latter rain movement, so that as I personally, and anyone else who was, you know, my persuasion, as we leave the message, which is, perhaps one of the main branches of the latter rain movement, that we don't fall into another

sister cousin branch of the movement, which is just going to end up as another cult, right? It's not not being revictimized, leaving the cult. And so that is really the main purpose I see as I look at these things. It's where, where is it not safe for me to go having left the message?

And for me, what made the message a cult was not that we had a prophet that told us some made up stories. What made the message a cult was the underlying framework, which actually came out of the latter rain movement and can be found in all of our sister branches of the movement, many of whom are also equally destructive or even more destructive cults in some cases. And so that is part of the reason, John, that I am interested in, um, in looking at the other branches of the latter rain movement and where they're at today. Now, if you think of the latter rain movement,

the way I look at it, there are coming out of the latter rain in the 40s, there are three senior branches of the latter rain movement, three senior branches that each trace a line of direct ordination and descent from the elders of Sharon orphanage, okay? And the three senior branches of the message are, um, number one, global missions, which are the group that actually maintain control of Sharon missions. Global missions is the Sharon orphanage today, okay? Global missions is one of the senior branches of the latter rain movement. Regardless of what they may say, they are one of the senior branches of the latter rain movement. The second one of the senior

branches of the latter rain movement is the shepherding movement. John, we're talking dear Prince, Ern Baxter, those guys. The shepherding movement is one of the senior branches of the latter rain, which also claims a direct line of ordination out of Jim Wat, another one of the original elders of Sharon orphanage. The third senior branch of the of the Laterane Movement, John, is the message. It's where we come from, which had three of the original seven elders. The Houghton Brothers, John, all came into the message as all those things broke up. The Houghton Brothers remained an independent assemblies of God, and they fellowshiped

in message churches for most of their lives, and a significant number of the early message preachers, especially my sect of the message, John, had direct lines of ordination from the Houghton Brothers. The message is also one of the main branches of the Laterane Movement, and those are the three senior branches. Besides that, there are so many branches. The Laterane Movement seeded itself all across the independent assemblies of God, across the Elim Fellowship, across quite a number of independent churches, and there are so many factions of the Laterane Movement, some of which we covered starting back in episode 32. We want to go back and understand how those

all broke up the way they did and why they did, but those three senior branches, John, all in some degree or another played a role in producing the new apostolic reformation. We want to talk about that a little bit again today. If you remember in our last episode, we talked through the vineyard basically how the Jesus people movement got started. In the early Jesus people movement, John, the shepherding leaders, Villalani Frisbee and a few others, got a back door into the early Jesus people movement, and they influenced some percentage of the early Jesus people movement with their ideas, which were Laterane Ideas. The shepherding movement

is one of the main senior branches of the Laterane Ideology. They influenced those teachings into the early Jesus people movement, and the Jesus people movement took a softer version, a less extreme version of all those Laterane teachings early on, and as they did, they ended up breaking away from Calvary Chapel and forming the vineyard churches. The vineyard churches started as the charismatic hippies who were influenced by the shepherding movement breaking away from Calvary Chapel. That is who the vineyard movement was when they started, and John Wimber rises up as the most senior guy in the vineyard movement for its first decades. The influence into the vineyard

movement from Laterane came from multiple angles, though. There's multiple waves of it. The first wave of it was the shepherding movement, influencing at the very beginning really while they were still in Calvary Chapel, and then following them over to vineyard, and then once they're in vineyard, then the second wave of Laterane influence happens. That second wave of Laterane influence is what we're going to talk about today. Although I say it's the second wave of Laterane influence into the vineyard movement, historians actually call this period the third wave of Pentecostalism. That's what starts. What is born in the vineyard movement is the third wave of

Pentecostalism. Pentecostalism. A costal history is broken into three distinct phases if you read most historical books. Phase number one of Pentecostal history started with Azusa Street. That's the first way was Azusa Street and then what came after that.

The second way of a Pentecostalism started with William Branham and the healing revivals. William Branham initiated the second way of a Pentecostalism. So he's really the leading figure. Most people will acknowledge in the second way of a Pentecostalism, which is where we come from.

Then that goes on and then the third wave of Pentecostalism starts. John generally agreed in the 1980s and it starts among churches in the vineyard movement, which is where we're talking about today. And they are churches, John, who have been influenced by the Laterane practices and William Branham's practices from the second way.

And so that's where we're at today, John. We're going to start talking about these other influences that came into vineyard and combined with the already maybe softer version of Laterane that they had adopted through the vineyard movement and takes it and starts turning it into the more radical version.

They're progressing towards the radical version of this ideology in the vineyard movement as time goes on. And eventually, as we probably get in our next episode, John Wimber wakes up on his deathbed and realizes, uh-oh, you know, I'm going to go to hell maybe if I don't make this right?

I don't know, but whatever at the end of his life he realizes and he largely kicks them out and pushes them out of vineyard. And so our next two episodes, we're going to go through that phase, but what John Wimber pushes out of vineyard at the end of his life is the New Apostolic Reformation.

The New Apostolic Reformation was born in vineyard during the third wave of Pentecostalism, as these influences came together. And towards the end of John Wimber's life, he wakes up. Maybe I don't know. We'll talk about that in the next episode and they get pushed out of vineyard and they are the New Apostolic Reformation already fully formed by that point.

Um, and that's in the late 1990s. So here we go, John. It's going to be, uh, it's going to be a fun episode today. It will, but before we go there, I want to go back to something that you said because it is very important that people understand.

You're describing what makes a cult and you are absolutely correct. It isn't just the central figure or having a central figure. So whenever people look at a particular group, they might say, well, this group's not a cult, there is no central figure.

I don't see a face like Jim Jones that is hovering over the people and beating them into submission verbally. But let me, let me tell you a story about a minister that I knew.

I came in contact with a minister. He actually reached out to me who had been in the Brannum Culp for decades. And he realized he woke up towards the end of his life. He woke up and realized that I don't agree with some of the doctrine and the control and all of the things that William Brannum stood for.

And so I have tried for the past few years. to shift my church away from Brannemism and he said that I basically I don't say the word Brannem anymore. I just take the doctrines that he taught that were good. I avoid the doctrines that were bad and I'm trying to slowly bring my church into truth. And that's something I can sport. That's a good thing, right? However, in the midst of all of this thing, I'm helping this guy, I'm giving him information that I have. In the midst of all of that, his wife secretly contacts me

and is pleading for help. John, what do I do? This church is, yes, it is taking the name Brannem out of the church, but the level of control that they have over the people, the governance, the authority of the pastor and she's talking about her husband. And the sad part is this man died not long after.

So at the end of his life, he recognized that he had made a grave mistake and he had led his entire church down a path of no return. It was awful. And he thought that he had reformed.

And he, in his conversation, when I talk to him as his path of the equation, he truly believed that he had reformed and changed his church for the better. His wife was like, oh my gosh, what do we do? I grew up in a normal healthy church. I came into Brannemism later and I'm still seeing this vast difference. So what happens is whenever you are indoctrinated in a cult, you learn the cult framework of authoritarian control. And that gets to be a deep part of your doctrine. And though he is claiming that he has shifted his church toward reform and he's abandoning what he disagrees with,

the problem is his frame of mind is swayed so far from the truth such that he believes that the doctrines that he has kept are actually biblical when they're not. And so he's still, even though it had no central figure, people wouldn't call him a cult leader, he had taken the false doctrines and he had ran with them. And it's all the doctrines of authoritarian control. There's another book Dr. Stephen Hassan wrote combating cult mind control and it talks about the bite model which is behavioral control, information control, thought manipulation and control, emotional manipulation and control. And if you take those elements and you apply it to this destructive church that thought

it had reformed, many elements were still there. Yes, they had wiped away large portions of the mind control elements, but it still existed. And so therefore the church was, it was not a healthy church. I'll just say it like that. Now, when we look at some of the churches that we're examining in our Revival History series, yes, they may not have a central figure. Yes, they may have greatly reformed, but the question for me is what foundation was it built upon?

And so for that, I'm excited to get into today's episode because we're talking about literally that foundation that was laid, and you have to ask the question, yes, they've reformed, but how much and how much of the movement itself is still very controlling and manipulative.

You're exactly right, John. And there's such a risk when you leave the message or another branch of the latter ray movement of being revictimized by another cult because, John, if you take the message and you, and you demote William Brannum from central figure to just average prophet or maybe just ignore him all together, what are you left with?

What do you, if you just take the message and subtract William Brannum, what do you have? You have the new installer reformation, so it looks mighty appealing to people who leave the message. Other branches of the latter rain look mighty appealing to someone leaving the message, and it looks like, okay, we subtract William Brannum, he let us astray, let's retrace one or two steps, okay, then let's go into the latter rain, because if you back up a couple steps from William Brannum, you end up in one of the other branches of the latter rain movement.

And I think what I have landed at, John, in my own thinking is you actually got to go back about five steps at least. You got to get out of the latter rain, man, like you don't even want to be in a branch of the latter rain, because like I said, it, and you said, it's not, it's not the made up stories from William Brannum that made the message it called.

It is the framework that allowed him to get away with everything he did. That is the underlying problem. William Brannum got Scott free away with what he did and ended up forming a cult that grew into millions of people around the world, and there was no structure, there was nothing to stop him, to slow him down, barely even a speed bump, John, to stop this cult in this movement.

And you and I know the horrors of this movement, we've covered it in the podcast. So what allowed that to happen? It wasn't the made up stories of the prophet, it was the framework that he was already operating within, in large part that pre-existed him, John, that allowed all of that to happen.

And you're correct, that underlying framework of the brainwashing techniques of the authoritarian leadership model and of really the crazy ideology that leads to radical behavior, manifested sons of God, all of that exists in these other branches of the movement, and it's important to be aware of them that way, I mean, if you're leaving the message, I think you're at high risk of being revictimized if you go to one of these groups.

And so I'm just, I myself am incredibly cautious, you know, if I was going to join myself into another branch of the latter-rain movement, I know there are people who've left the message, and that's what they've done, and I don't begrudge them at all, I'm sure, here's the thing, John, there's not, there's quite a lot of branches of the latter-rain movement that are a whole lot less dangerous than the message, and where we come from.

But then there are other branches of the ladder rain movement that are just as dangerous and more dangerous, right? And so people just kind of have to use their wisdom and you know decide what they're going to do. But as we come back here and what we're talking about today, so in the vineyard movement, John, as the vineyard movement breaks away from Calvary Chapel, this starts to begin really in the late 1970s and by 1982, it's it's more or less a full clean break from Calvary Chapel.

And the break between Calvary Chapel and vineyard and the vineyard churches, John, is not like the splits that happen in the message, right? John, if you know if we're in the message in two groups split, you're dead to each other, right?

And you basically you walk on other sides of the street and you spit on the ground as you pass, basically, you know, it is that bad almost, John. Kind of like me and you at the blue board, right?

We, you know, you stare narrowly at each other across the blue board because they're not from our section of the message and they're going to hell. They're a post date, right? When you have a split in the message, it's like that.

But when this division happens between Calvary Chapel and vineyard movement, it's not like that, John. It is not like that. It is they're not, they're not in the same level of radicalness as the message back, okay?

And they're still kind of friendly with each other and they're still kind of a cross thing happening there for quite a few years. And so anyway, vineyard breaks away and they go down this route where they have, they have basically taken all of the shepherding movement influenced guys from from Calvary Chapel and Calvary Chapel starts on its path and it's reforming. So Calvary Chapel has been reforming away from this ideology, John.

Since really the late 60s and early 70s, the vineyard movement only started its reform away from this ideology in the late 90s, okay? So Calvary Chapel has like a 30 year, 30 year lead in reforming over the vineyard movement.

So, you know, you can keep that in mind for yourselves if you're thinking about these things, but the vineyard movement, John,

as you come into the 1980s, John Wimber really starts making very good friends with the shepherding leaders. And I have to say, Lonnie Frisbee played a role in the introductions and Lonnie Frisbee was the initial gateway through which a lot of this came.

But John Wimber, more or less, steps into that role, uses some of Lonnie Frisbee's popularity to draw some of the Jesus people movement over. And, you know, in a sense, I feel bad for Lonnie Frisbee, John. Like, Lonnie Frisbee is the guy that got used.

I just, you know, when I look at the history of Lonnie Frisbee, Lonnie Frisbee is a guy that a whole lot of people just used him, honestly. And they kind of threw him away like trash at the end of his life, the poor guy, you know, you feel bad for him.

But he was, he was pretty badly used by a lot of people. And so, he got used and, you know, Lonnie Frisbee, I don't- No, honestly, John, here's a book, I'll point out, it's called The Jesus People Movement.

We actually, this was actually recommended to me by one of our listeners, John. It's actually a really good read, if you want to look into some of this stuff. The Jesus People Movement by Richard Boostran.

Well, Lonnie Frisbee, I mean, I don't know, John. Just what to do with him, but basically, he eventually died of HIV. He was a homosexual, and he died of HIV, and you know, as you come into those years, basically, he collapses in any real influence.

And John Wimbler is more or less the undisputed leader of this faction of the Jesus People, you know, by the time you come into the 1980s. And as that happens, John, the Shepherding Guys and John Wimbler start becoming buddies.

And what happens, John, is you see John Wimbler regularly inviting all of the top Shepherding Guys to speak at the Vineyard churches and the Vineyard conferences. They start featuring John Wimbler in New Wine magazine.

And there is a full-on cross-pollination out in the open public. All the records are there. Everybody go look at this. A full-on cross-pollination of the Shepherding Movement ideas into the early Vineyard Movement. And they're bringing in five-fold ministry.

They're bringing in the positive confession stuff. They're bringing in the deliverance stuff. And they're bringing in a softer version of manifested sons of God. All of that is coming into the early Vineyard Movement in spades from the Shepherding Movement.

And you can look in the magazines that they published. And in the magazines they published, you got John Wimbler endorsing five-fold ministry. You've got him endorsing the deliverance practices. There's sermons you can get of John Wimbler teaching Derek Prince's Deliverance Formulations, John, where bitterness causes arthritis.

All of this crazy stuff, John Wimbler taught this stuff. And he's imbibing it. He's bringing it into the movement. And it's a softer version. John Wimbler, here's the thing. John Wimbler, whenever he preached it, he himself always preached a softer version of it, John.

But then alongside him on stage was the crazy nuts who preached the hard version. And so he preaches the soft version. They preach the hard version on the same platform at the same conventions, right?

And it's affecting the people. The people are absorbing this stuff as time goes on. It's such a complicated history to detangle. You know, I've had people who are fans of Wimbler. And much like the minister who has, you know, he's shifted his church away from it.

Anybody who's in that church who has gradually shifted away from Branemism, they might openly condemn the things that Branemism declared that was incorrect or wrong. The difference is, whenever you're in a destructive cult, one of the Key indicators according to Dr. Stephen Hassan is how open they are with their information if they try to conceal it from you That's a cult strategy and what I find is there there are a lot of people who Like it or not. They are supporters of people like Wimba and Wimba is just one in a crowd of hundreds It's not that we're singling him out in this

But he's one guy who has a history that really is critical to understand how the New Apostolic Reformation Came to be yes on his deathbed. He may have done whatever said whatever he said But that history still exists that history was there it was written and a historian would look at this and say this is what happened But what you find is a large number of people trying to cover up what happened which is a cult like Structure that's that's something that is indoctrinated. That's not something that you learn The other key indicator for me you're talking about the shepherding

movement years whenever Wimba is a big part of this Anybody who's of the frame of mind that all the history can be erased would totally glaze over this But you and I we grew up in this history. We know what this is So we know the loaded language Whenever we see people like Paul Cain who's preaching we need this in-time army this Joel's army We know the exact statements by William Branham that is referring to the second passage of Joel This was a this was a common latarine theme and Paul Cain is reinventing latarine basically Branhamism 2.0 which would

Ultimately it would develop into iHOP KC international house of prayer But what happened is you have people on stage like Cain and Cain is one of a line of like I said there's hundreds of these guys They're using the loaded language that we are familiar with Whenever they're talking all of these military terms they're talking about building Joel's army And we you and I Charles we pick up on this because we were indoctrinated in this way The general audience who has been indoctrinated in the same way during those same years they pick up on it

Whenever they talk about anything to do with army or military or any of these phrases They know that Paul Cain and others are referring to Joel's army On the same platform you have people like John Wimber who is making statements to the same crowd of people Wimber who is fully fully aware of the loaded language and he starts using the same terminology In fact his slogan is what was picked up by the new wine magazine and some of the others we're building an army And that's what carried forward into that that literally developed into iHOP KC if you understand how that went

The loaded language is key now separate yourself from this from a long distance you look at Calvary today You look at some of the offshoots of this some of those plenary groups They have, many of them have reformed, some of them have erased their history.

And if they were to hear Wembers saying things like we're building an army, they would just discount it because that means nothing to them. Yes, Wembers talking about an army of Christians, this is a good thing.

That's how you would think of it today. But think back then, to the audience that he's speaking to, who are fully aware that Wembers are saying we're building an army, we're building Joel's army, this is a big deal.

The other thing that I want to point out is that Matthew, I think it's Matthew 12, Jesus says, an evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign. One of the key elements of Laterane was that they wanted to ignore that passage from Jesus and they would broadly advertise, even in the newspapers, signs, wonders, miracles, they were inviting this evil and adulterous generation that seeks after a sign.

Well, that is what Wembers was most remembered for, his signs and wonders, conventions and all of these things that are declaring we are a people who is looking after signs and wonders. That framework didn't originate with Wembers.

You can't even credit him with this, you can't say that he's to blame, but he's part of a system, he's part of a foundation that has been laid, that has taught the people to believe that focusing on signs and wonders is a heavenly thing instead of Jesus openly said, this is the evil and this is the adulterous generation.

So, for me, I look at the history, I want to know the loaded language, whenever I look at these old sermons and recordings by not just Wembers, but many of these guys, I want to know what is the time period in history and what was their loaded language at the time.

You can generally find if this is an offshoot of Brannemism or not simply by looking at the audience in the time period. Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new Apostolic Reformation?

You can learn this and more on William Brannem Historical Research's website, William-Brannem.org. On the book's page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen McCummery, John McKinnon and others, with links to the paper, audio and digital versions of each book.

You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top.

And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching. On behalf of William Brannem Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.

40s, one of the big things that was frequently used as a appeal or selling point for this ideology was, look, we have signs, wonders, and miracles. And this is therefore going to make us more effective in missions because we can demonstrate power to these people.

We can demonstrate signs, wonders, miracles. And they will believe because of the signs, wonders, and miracles. And we can therefore have an edge on converting these people to Christianity. And that is still a major rationale in this ideology to the present day.

But what you're pointing out there is very correct. And you know, me, John, like I hardly ever in our podcast series talk about, you know, Bible and stuff like that. But yeah, you're right.

Jesus said, what did he say right there? He said, and that wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign. But what's the very next scripture? And no sign will be given to them except the sign of the prophet Jonas, the sign of the resurrection, three days and the nights and the heart of the earth and the resurrection, right?

And what Jesus is saying in that passage, John, is like, if the truth of the gospel message, if the truth of the resurrection isn't enough to convert these people, right? And you're trying to convert them with signs, wonders, and miracles.

You're actually fundamentally doing it wrong, right? The sign to convert the people is the resurrection of Jesus, not signs, wonders, and miracles, right? And that is the very context of what Jesus is saying in that verse.

And when people do that, and they go down that route, oh, well, our signs, wonders, and miracles are going to convert the people. They are really directly contradicting the Bible, John. I mean it.

So anyway, set that aside, moving on. You're right, John, when it comes back to John Wimber. John Wimber, the new apostolic reformation is just as much a part of the legacy of John Wimber as the vineyard movement.

There is no new apostolic reformation today without John Wimber. He is critical to the formation of the new apostolic reformation. He is the man who platformed and brought the leaders who form the NAR to the masses.

Without John Wimber, you don't get it. John Wimber was a critical man in this path. And he might have been a nice man. And he did not preach. I would agree. I don't think he preached the radical extreme as the rest of them did.

But he let them preach the radical extreme right next to him on the platform while he sat beside them and said, hey man, right? And indoctrinate the people who he then kicked out at the end of his life.

But he's the one who enabled it all, right? And you can't do this thing where you whitewash all this. No, John Wimber made some very terrible mistakes that ended up producing a incredibly destructive cult.

And yeah, John Wimber himself was maybe not crazy. And yes, maybe at the end of his life, he recanted this stuff. But nevertheless, this is a horrible, horrible mistake that John Wimber made. eight in his life.

And it makes him a model that we should not emulate. I mean, the stuff he did on this respect, I don't, this is what, again, I'm not going to vineyard churches myself, John, because this is kind of scary to me.

I see this is, this produced something really ugly, and I'm glad the vineyard movement's reforming. I don't want nothing to do with this stuff myself. This is, it's too dangerous. And so, let's do this, John.

Let's put up a clip for our listeners. And we're just, I'm just going to very simply, let's play a clip, and before we play it, John, here's what I'm going to point out to our listeners.

This is what I want you to watch for in this next clip, so you can understand what we're talking about. In this next clip, I want you to listen. John Wimber is encouraging the people to go into an altered state of mind.

And as they're in this altered state of mind, he's shouting submission and obedience at them. He's using the terms of the fivefold ministry language. He's promoting the elements of that authoritarian leadership model too, while they're in the altered state of mind.

And he's also using the loaded language of Joel's army manifested sons of God in this clip. And all the while that he's doing it, the man behind his shoulder is Paul Cain. Paul Cain, William Branham's protege, who was absolutely teaching the radical versions of this ideology when John Wimber leaves the stage, he gets up and he preaches a whole sermon on the radical elements of this ideology, okay?

And did the average person in the crowd realize that's what's going on? Maybe not. Did John Wimber realize that's what he was doing? Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I think so. And did a percentage of the people leave that crowd indoctrinated with this ideology and ended up in the New Apostolic Reformation?

Yeah, absolutely. A percentage of the people in this crowd ended up in the New Apostolic Reformation as a result of what happens here on this stage. And this clip we're going to play. So let's go ahead and roll the clip.

But he needs a clean vessel. He needs a cooperative and obedient child, not childish, but a child who will believe and step out on the things that he senses he's been called to do.

Is that where your heart is tonight? Is that what you want to be? You want to be the children of God? You want to minister in his power and authority? Then you must become as a child because the kingdom is given to children, not childish ones, but those that are innocent, pure, responsive, obedient, quick to do bidding.

And what we're talking about is kingdom power and kingdom activity. This is what the king does through his people. Speaking tongues, let it come, let it out.

That's it. Speak out. Speak out. That's it. Let it come. Let it come. That's it. Hallelujah. Hallelujah. Let the spirit of prophecy come over you. Lord, open their eyes that they may see the things of the spirit. Open their ears that they may hear the voice of the Lord. Open their being, O God, that they may enter into the things of the divine, that they may do your bidding and work, and know your mind, O God, that the spirit of counsel and wisdom come upon them. In Jesus' name.

Don't worry about that. That's just a little darkness. It's getting cleaned out. When life comes, darkness must go.

That's the power come. We need more. Capture them, Lord. Take them captive for your purposes, O God. Raise up an army for yourself, O God.

Pure and clean and empowered, perfected, joined to the body of Christ, under authority, in obedience. All right, John. Now, you just saw that clip. I mean, tell me what you think. I mean, it's pretty obvious there that this is, I mean, to me and you, and I think to anybody familiar with this ideology and reading the other stuff happening in the new apostolic referendum or in the vineyard movement at this time, that's pretty disturbing what we just saw. And roughly what you have here is John Wimber setting up the people for this crazy state that is gradually going to evolve into the new apostolic reformation. It is scary.

And you know, I had some time ago. I had somebody who wanted to work with me. And the whole thing appears to be a setup. They were working with me about John Wimber. And essentially what happened is they were wanting to control the narrative.

And later came out and tried to quote unquote expose everything that I was doing. But what they were essentially doing was trying to control the narrative and keep the people from understanding correctly the history as it was written. And things like this, things that you're playing here, things that we're talking about. If you're in this movement and you have given undue reverence to Wimber or anything anyone who came out of this movement, not just Wimber.

broad movement with hundreds of people, thousands of people. If you're giving undue respect to people and trying to erase their histories, I have a problem with it, I will always have a problem with this because that's what makes a cult and that's how people get not only deceived but they get controlled and manipulated and their lives get ruined.

So if you're in one of these movements, how many of these movements have told you that there are instances in history like this where this very destructive, very controlling authoritarian cult-like behavior was happening with not just Wimber, but any of these men that are in these movements that develop from Latter-Rain.

And in the new Apostolic Reformation, there are several, it's like a spider web, there are several different Apostolic networks that make all of this up. We find the same thing with, we recently did the podcast on Derek Prince.

Look at the comment feeds and watch the people say, but in the last years of his life, Brother Derek completely denied and rejected all of this doctrine from Brannum. So Bernala Cernum's ladies and gentlemen.

He may have, but how many of the people in the Derek Prince cult are aware that Derek Prince and all of this history, all of this connection to Brannumism, not many people are aware because they're erasing that history.

But like I said at the beginning of this, the problem is, I can't say that there's a Derek Prince cult and that Derek Prince is a central figure. No, I can't say it like that, but look at the framework that was laid by Brannumism, this authoritarian control, and now take the church that exists today, many of the churches that are built on top of Prince.

The question for me is, they may not be destructive today, but they have that same exact foundation, the same foundation that was laid by Brannum. What about the children of the people in that church?

What about their grandchildren? Are they headed into destruction? Are they going to be in a cult? And that can apply to Derek Prince, John Wimber, any of the people that we've described that are in this movement.

When you traced your lineage back to a foundation that was fully designed, as we've gone through the history, it was designed specifically to control the people for politics. You trace it all the way back to Brannumism and the men Brannum was working with.

This was a political cult designed to control the people. If that is your framework, if that is your foundation, if that is your history, are your children safe? Are your grandchildren safe? For me, I'm like you, there's no way you could get me to attend one of these churches.

No way you could get me to do it. But there are people who are, and it scares me. You know, John, when you think back to that clip that we played, there's lots of them we could play.

I think that's just a good little sample. There's a lot of people that would watch that and see what's going on and see what's going on there. And it wouldn't sound too bad, right?

And they would even think it's a... good thing that's happening. All of the spirit of God is following and it's obedience and submission to God and it's an army to spread the gospel, right? There's people in normal Christianity or even you know, healthier, penicostal Christianity. That's what they hear when they see that.

And it's because that it's using the same language that this cult ideology uses. Now, is that what John Wimber meant when he said all those things? Maybe he did. But I'm telling you, the man standing behind him on the platform there, Paul Cain, who came from the message, that is not what he meant when he said those things. It's the same language with different word, the different meanings. When he says army, he means manifest it sounds a God.

When he says obedience and submission, he's talking about fivefold ministry, authority, and leadership structures, right? And this is what's so important. And a lot of times I think John, people may be from more traditional, normal, normal Christianity. When they hear this terminology and then the people like us who come from the cult with this exact same terminology, we almost can talk past each other because we don't, you know, the words don't mean the same thing. We're actually speaking in a different language when we say these words, right? And that's what's so problematic with these cults is they've hijacked the words and they've changed the meanings of them, right?

And absolutely the language around submission and obedience all flows out of the fivefold ministry teachings of the latter reign that that is what they're imbibing there. And they're talking about, you know, forming the army and so forth. Yes, it's absolutely the entry point into the manifested sons of God ideology. Now the other thing I want to point out to you, John, is I mentioned how the latter reign influence came into the vineyard movement in two phases. They started, they started from the get go with that shepherding movement influence. Well, another thing happens, John, as you come into the early 1980s, roughly 1981-82, the Kansas City prophets join the vineyard

fellowship, John. If you go back in the 80s, where were the Kansas City prophets? They were in the vineyard fellowship. They were the vineyard church of Kansas City. That is who the Kansas City prophets were. They were in vineyard, okay? So, John, or John whimper by goodness, John. These starts out inviting the shepherding movement. It's going downhill. And then he invites in the Kansas City prophets. Who is the chief lead of the Kansas City prophets? Mr. Paul Kane. Who is Mr. Paul Kane? John, now we're talking about a branch of the latter reign movement that you and I are

deeply familiar with. Paul Kane is one of William Branagh's protegees. He was advertised himself as another William Branagh. Paul Kane was in message churches in the same years, okay? Mr. whimper, you have a message preacher standing on the platform behind you.

Vineyard folks, you have a message preacher touring your churches teaching you in those years. Now, don't you tell me, don't you tell me that there's no connection? No, you have. And here's the thing, John.

In those years, John Wimber is telling the people as he introduces Paul Cain, a message preacher, John, from message roots, from Branemism. He's telling the vineyard people that Paul Cain is the greatest living prophet in the world.

He's telling that to them. He's the most supernaturally gifted, powerful prophet in the world. This is what John Wimber saying is he introduces Paul Cain. And Paul Cain is the senior miracle man of the vineyard movement in those years.

And who are they platforming? They are platforming a homosexual man who worked closely with William Branem and was living out near Prescott with the park and all of that stuff when all the horrors happen and God only knows, John.

God only knows all of the horrors, you know. And the things we know about Paul Cain now, Paul Cain was a terrible, terrible person on so many levels. And John Wimber has got this man on the platform, telling the people he's the greatest prophet, parroting language of the latter reign movement, which maybe he's giving a different definition to, but Paul Cain is most absolutely certainly using the latter reign and message definitions and terminology as he teaches this to the masses in Europe, in the United States and Canada in Austria, they do this all over the place, John.

And as they throw open the doors, the Paul Cain and the other Kansas City prophets in the 80s and the early 90s, this is before Mike Bickle had Kansas City Fellowship and all that.

They are traveling around the vineyard movement, just like the message evangelist traveled a message circuit, John. Paul Cain was traveling the vineyard circuit, spreading this stuff all over the vineyard movement. Now did the whole vineyard movement accept this ideology?

No, absolutely not. Did the majority accept it? I don't even think the majority accepted it, John. But did a sizable minority accept it? Absolutely. And that sizable minority of vineyard, which accepted this ideology, which John Wimber opened the doors and promoted and let in, is the people who are going to start the new apostolic reformation and are going to be pushed out of the vineyard movement at the end of John Wimber's life.

It's scary, man. I don't know if you've seen the movies, there's a movie series, The Final Destination. And in the series, when somebody cheats death, then suddenly all of these bad things, like horrifically bad things, start happening to them because they've cheated death and death is coming to get them.

All of this reminds you, if you understand the framework of this thing, it is like, it's worse than the Final Destination movies and ironically, people are choosing their, false final destination in it. But many of the people who were in this trail of history were fully aware that bad things were happening because of the false foundation, bad doctrines, men were rising up, and they would actually condemn, like in the early years, I think we pointed out that Jim Jones actually condemned Brannum.

He and I think Brannum said there were 300 ministers that condemned him. They realized that it was a cult. Before that happened, you have the entire assemblies of God who recognized this is a foundation that is destructive, it is extremism, and we reject it.

So the assemblies of God rejected in the late 40, quote, 1949, I think it was. All through history, you have people rising up to reject it. Those who stayed in it were fully aware of the reasons why it was being rejected.

As they would watch people splinter off and break away from it, those who stayed and remained, they knew that it was bad. They knew the foundation was bad, but what they kept trying to do was shift everything that was built on top of the foundation.

Let's leave the foundation. We love the signs and wonders things. It makes lots of money for us. Let's keep the signs and wonders. Let's keep this foundation and let's keep all of the elements that enable us to claim power over the people who are submitting their to us, their authority.

They wanted to keep all of that, but they kept trying to change doctrines and tried to make it seem as though this is a fresh new thing with a fresh new doctrine. Same foundation will just like the final destination movies, bad things continue to happen, and this occurs over and over and over and over again.

And we're in a cycle where it has reformed so much so that if you were to look at the movement today and then compare it to the branemism that we grew up, it is two, it looks like two completely different things.

This is not the same thing. If you know the foundation and you have all of that structure and you recognize that yes, the doctrines are new, but the foundation, the very foundation that it sits on is the same thing.

You're essentially playing a game of final destination with yourself. Bad things are going to continue to happen. I think what's important, John, too, you know, when people say, well, the doctrine has changed and stuff, I would actually argue, John, that it hasn't changed that much.

And the people saying that are actually just unfamiliar with the branches of the latter reign movement. Yes, John, the two of the senior branches of the latter reign movement did continue on with dispensationalist theology and rapture and all that, right?

But one of the senior branches of the latter reign movement did not. And that is actually one of the very reasons that they broke off in the very earliest days into their own branch of the movement.

The global mission's branch of this, John, became a millennial. They stopped believing in dispensationalism. They stopped believing in the... capture, and they took on the viewpoint of manifested sons of God that basically everyone will just become a manifested son of God.

They will seize control of the world through the power of the spoken word, okay? And usher in the end of days. That is much more similar to what the Kansas City guys and stuff believed, okay?

It's not what we believe in the message, right? Because we had varying interpretations of this, right? There's varying interpretations of these things in the branches of the ladder rain movement. And as I said before, within the vineyard movement, you have a reconvergence of multiple branches of the ladder rain movement, okay?

I've already explained how the shepherding movement came in in the beginning. Well here we're talking about how the message branch comes in through Paul Cain, but John, that's not it either. It don't stop there.

As Paul Cain comes in and the shepherding movement comes in, they open the doors to some of the original elders of ladder rain. Bill Britain and some of those kinds of guys are also coming into vineyard and teaching and sharing things.

And they bring in that a millennial view from them. They bring in that dominionist view from them. John Wimber lets in the three senior branches of the ladder rain movement into vineyard job. And they recombine their ideologies and produce the gnar.

And you know, there's so much there, you know, a person could spend so long talking about all that John. But John Wimber made just a absolutely disastrous mistake in what he did. And I'm so glad that he changed his mind and started a reform process for vineyard at the end of his life.

But the fallout of the negative choices that the bad side of the choices he made continues with us to the present day. And I do know, I am putting a lot on John Wimber's shoulders here because I do believe he is that responsible for all this.

I don't think there's anybody more responsible in vineyard for what happened than him. I think he is by far the most responsible person for what happened. And to be clear, John Wimber platformed, sex perverts, homosexuals, our worders, child molesters, drug addicted people.

People who killed some people too and promoted them as senior leaders in this thing, he did. That is the reality of it, right? And to kind of downplay all that, I mean, it happened.

It happened. And Paul Cain was one of those people that he platformed in all of that. And they produced something really, really ugly and something that turned dangerous, in my opinion, certainly. Now what happens next, John, is as vineyard starts to bring all these guys in and you come into the 1980s, by the middle 1980s, guess what happens?

The shepherding movement starts to implode. Pat Robertson is launching that campaign against the shepherding guys. The shepherding movement is imploding, it's falling apart. Guess what happens? The shepherding people need a new home. The shepherding churches need a new home.

And so, as I've we've mentioned already, John Wimber and the shepherding guys had already become friends. And John Wimber's in their magazines and all that. And as the shepherding movement implodes, a sizable percentage of the shepherding movement migrates and builds a new home in Vineyard John.

And so now Vineyard, as you come into the late 1980s, Vineyard is made up of multiple factions. One of those factions are the charismatic hippies who were brought in from the Jesus people with the influence of shepherding teachings.

Another faction is the actual shepherding movement people who join them after the shepherding movement imploded, shepherding preachers, shepherding people. The third branch is, John, you have the Kansas City prophets and all of the ladder reentangled web that they're connected to also in as a third faction in this thing.

She got three deeply ladder reentensed factions in the Vineyard movement as you come into the middle in late 1980s. Now, these are not the only factions. There's other people in Vineyard besides these, but she got these three factions.

And they are combining together, John. It is like, I don't know, you know that stuff when you're in school and you mix it together and then the volcano explodes out the top. John Wimber, they're pouring these things together, John.

And then what happens as you come into the early 1990s, you get the Toronto blessing, okay? The Toronto blessing, and this is not exactly where it started. Although this is the point, it became very popular, famously well-known all over the world.

The Toronto blessing is when all of these elements have combined and are shaken it up and boom, you get the Toronto blessing, John. That's when the Toronto blessing happened. You know, it's funny, but it's also scary when you think about it.

I have ministers who and friends who are in the brand of call. And the brand of call, whenever you're on the outside looking in, it's all one and the same. This is one big group, this is a cult of people who have by and large accepted William Brandham's false doctrine as authority and basically his spoken word has replaced the Bible, the written word.

When you're outside looking in, that's what it looks like. But when you're on the inside, it looks much different. You have factions within the message that there's some what be nine. I wouldn't call them really a healthy church because of the foundation, but they're not as bad as the others.

On the far extreme, you have all of the things that you just mentioned from predators to, I won't even go how far bad it goes. If you want to know that history, go to Colonia, Dignidad, just type that in Wikipedia.

You'll see the far extreme of what this can be. But there's that vast of a difference in the sect of the message. There are people who are killing other people. and there are people who think they're in a somewhat healthy church.

But in the midst of all of this, they have the same foundation. So whenever somebody who's in one of the more benign churches, who, you know, I had one minister who tells me he's trying to make it a healthy church, and he's going through all the proper steps of a healthy church.

And in the back of my mind, I'm thinking, but wait a minute. You have the same foundation as the rest of them. Yes, you may have good intentions. What about whenever you're no longer pastor?

What about when you die? When the next guy takes over that next guy, if he studied Brannum, studied Brannumism, he has all of the elements necessary to make it a very destructive cult. And that same mentality applies to all of this movement from start to finish.

Yes, the church may look healthy. What about when this current minister dies? Is the foundation something that breeds a healthy church or is it something that breeds a very destructive one? You know, when you think about the vineyard movement in its early days, the vineyard movement was an easy target.

And you know, as I said in our last episode, I actually believe that the shepherding leaders purposefully targeted Lonnie Frisbee for recruitment. They purposefully target leading Jesus people for recruitment. And they did it because they wanted to gain access to this audience of easy marks.

And you know, it's kind of sad to say that, John, but I really think when you look at the origins of all this, a lot of these people were just easy targets for this ideology.

They were people who had come from not many of them, not really Christian backgrounds. They had come, they were young people, predominantly young people. And they were just, there's not a lot of eldership, real serious eldership, you know, from a good authoritative source that you can trust and rely on going on in these things.

And they just were easy marks. And like the latter reign movement, the entry bar into leadership is incredibly low in these movements. Now, it's not as low as the latter reign movement today, but you go back to the early days, John.

Like you go back, you know, forgive me for talking bad about Calvary Chapel, John, because I'm not throwing Calvary Chapel under the bus here. If anybody from there thinks I'm listening, you know, thinks that's what I'm doing.

You go back to Calvary Chapel in the early days. In what universe should Lonnie Frisbee have ever been made a leader? Never any universe should Lonnie Frisbee ever been made a leader of anything, right?

But he, you know, he was empowered into leadership. You can kind of go down the list of the people. There is a very low bar of entry into leadership into these things, right? And that is easily abused by this movement, right?

And the latter reign ideology around fivefold ministry and so forth, jives with that very well, right? It jives. with some of the spot that these people already were. And so they just come in and they're easy marks for this ideology and a percentage of them were converted into it.

And John, I think it's very true that as they came in and converted these people, you know, are you aware anywhere of Derek Prince saying, hey, I used to pass to a church with the elders of Sharon Orphanage.

Derek Prince never told you guys that. What is that? That's deception, ladies and gentlemen. That's what that is. You guys did, they didn't tell you all that they were headworked with the ladder rain movement.

In fact, they badmouth the ladder rain movement. You know, is what they would do to some extent all the while teaching you ladder rain stuff. That's, you know what that is, John? Again, that is deception.

I'm gonna tell you, yeah, the ladder rain movement was bad. But hey, let me teach you some of their ideology. That is exactly what they did, John. And the people kind of imbibed on it.

And by the time you come up into the 80s, I mentioned before how they kind of just had a very soft version of manifested sons of God at the very beginning from the Shepparding movement.

Well, as they bring in the Kansas City prophets and they bring in all of the ladder rain influence that those guys were connected to, John, they start to bring in the radical form of manifested sons of God.

It makes it, it radical form of manifested sons of God begins to make its appearances they bring in the Kansas City prophets. And Paul Cain is teaching ladder rain by name to the vineyard conferences.

And he's teaching manifested sons of God by name to the ladder rain conferences, okay? And so are others of the Kansas City prophets, okay? And they're going down that radical path. So it starts out more benign in the 60s, 70s.

As you come into the 80s, now that piece of manifested sons of God comes in. They already got the positive confession. They've already got five full ministry these guys. And now the radical, the radical manifested sons of God is coming in in the middle and late 80s.

And this is when they start to go crazy, right? The combination, it's not just the combination of people, it's the combination of ideas that produce the explosions and this ideology all throughout its history is all coming together in vineyard in the late 80s.

And so yeah, you end up with the Toronto blessing and there is, you know, Randy Clark is the minister there and Randy Clark, you know, I mean, we could do, well, there's so many things here we could just do, we could do three or four episodes on each one of these topics and guys, Sean, but things went crazy pretty fast.

And I'm not just talking about, you know, the people barking and foaming at the mouth and all that. That's crazy. But I mean, you know, very harmful stuff started to happen too through the deliverance practices.

People started to be harmed, people started to be injured, people started to be really taken advantage of financially. A lot of really bad things started to happen as you come into the 90s, you know, as this ideology starts to get crazier and crazier.

And all the while, some of these, in your guys are, you know, in the back rooms, absolutely, you know, terrible monsters of people, which has now, you know, come to the light. Mike Bickle was already doing his bad stuff back then, John.

You know, this period we're talking about, Mike Bickle was already doing his bad stuff back then. Paul Kane was already doing his bad stuff back then. Bob Jones was already doing his bad stuff back then.

And where were they doing it in back then? In the vineyard movement. They were in the vineyard movement when all that stuff happened, John. And as you come up, John, and I think in our next episode, this is where we're going to go.

As you come up into the middle and late 1990s, John Wimber and other leadership in vineyard start to enter into territory where there is going to be a schism over this stuff. And what's going to happen is John Wimber is actually going to vocally reject a fivefold ministry.

That's the piece that he's really going to reject. He's going to reject fivefold ministry. And as he does that, the people who want fivefold ministry, they're breaking away and they are the new apostolic reformation.

But during these years that they're all vineyard, C. Peter Wagner is also vineyard. And C. Peter Wagner looks at all of this that is happening and he says, this is a new apostolic reformation.

And C. Peter Wagner names this thing that he's seeing. And what's he seeing? What does he see when he calls it new apostolic reformation? He's specifically looking at the fivefold ministry teachings, John. Fivefold ministry is new apostolic reformation.

It's the same thing and he looks at this and he says, oh, these guys are commissioning profits. All of their commissioning apostles. This is a new apostolic reformation. No, this was he was mistaken.

This thing was not new then. There's nothing new about the new apostolic reformation. The new apostolic reformation is a continuation of the original fivefold ministry structures that were set up in the latter reign movement.

Paul Cain is a prophet of the message. He's a, he's a, he's a latter reign message ordained profit. He's from one of our fivefold ministry structures, John. You know, Derek Prince and all those guys were ordained out of one of the fivefold ministry structures.

All of these things were the fivefold ministry structures set up in the original latter reign movement that broke into competing fivefold ministry structures recombined and vineyard, okay? C. Peter Wagner sees it. They call it the new apostolic reformation.

John Wembers says, oh, these guys are going crazy. Let's kick them all out. And they're the gnar, John. It's the new apostolic reformation is the fivefold ministry structures that were pushed out of vineyard in the 1990s.

I'm not a big fan of beating a dead horse, but one last time going to beat the dead horse because you said something there that actually proved my point to the letter. And I don't think many people recognize this.

When any of these guys own their deathbed, whether they said it or not, I sometimes question where they really did. I have this deathbed confession, I rejected the whole thing. Think about the words that are used when somebody rebutged the argument that these guys have had this history.

They say he rejected the whole thing, whoever it was, but they're overloading that word whole. They're saying he rejected the whole thing, did you reject the whole foundation or did you just reject one part that you disagreed with?

Are you like that minister that I mentioned who rejected most of Brannemism but kept most of the authoritarian control? You mentioned Lonnie Frisbee, how it didn't take much for him to be appointed to leadership.

Think of what it looks like to somebody who's outside of this call, who has a minister with strong biblical understanding, who knows the Bible, knows theology, very sound teacher, and he's leading a church.

Someone in that church looks into this thing and sees Lonnie Frisbee. What are his credentials? Where did he learn his theology? What theology does he even have? It all goes back to this one central point.

The foundation was laid, was completely opposite to Jesus' words about the evil and adulterous generations he's after a sign. That phrase is pointing directly to what was created here. If you could have a sign, if you could display some miracle, you instantly got leadership.

If you go all the way back to the assemblies of God rejecting it in 1949, 1948 or 2009, whichever that was, that was their rejection. If you understand what they're saying, this creates the scheme to bring people into leadership roles who have no business being there whatsoever.

We, the assemblies of God, we're breaking away. We don't want this thing. Look what's happening with Lonnie Frisbee because this guy is high on LSD. You don't know what his signs and wonders really are.

Is it a manufactured chemical sign and wonder? You know, it's nonsense when you think about it. But because he could do whatever it was that he did, he was appointed to leadership with no scriptural doctrinal foundation to what he was doing, it was the signs and wonders.

That was his foundation. That's what all of this is built upon. If you can display some sign, and not even, if you can display it, if you can convince somebody that you did have a sign, that's enough to be in a leadership role in this.

That is the foundation. So I question, you know, whenever somebody says they rejected the whole thing, whoever it is, I really question that because you still see it continuing after they allegedly rejected it.

Yes, they may have eliminated one small piece of it, but that's what happened. So this, this is a big mess that continues today and with that, I'll stop beating the dead horse. John, I think this is probably a good place to stop the episode today.

Maybe in our next episode, we'll continue with this a little bit. We'll talk about, we'll talk about what happened. in the 90s, you know, in Vineyard and how the new Apostolic Reformation, which was not new, but thusly named the new Apostolic Reformation, how it ended up becoming what it is today, how it broke away from Vineyard, you know, in the events around John Wimburs' separation from it.

So I think that would be good. And I think it's also very important to talk about the messages reaction to all this when it happened. Because the people in the message, my sect, especially John, we were very aware of all of this as it transpired. Because as I mentioned, Paul Cain was coming around all our churches back then. And this was an issue back when all of these things happened, that Paul Cain was fellowshipping with the false anointed ones. And so John, we'll talk about the false anointed ones in our next episode. Well, I look forward to it. If you've enjoyed our show

and you want more information, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at William-Brandom.org and Christian-GospelChurch.org. For more about the history of William-Brandom and the healing revivals, read Come Out of For My People. And for more about the dark side of the new Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR, both available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.