John Wimber and the Road to NAR

Music Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Brandham Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Brandham Historical Research at William-brandham.org, and with me I have my co-host, researcher, minister, and friend Charles Paisley, founder of ChristianGospelChurch.org, and the author of come out of her, my people.

Charles, it's good to be back and to talk about John Wimber. We've had a lot of feedback, some of it good, some of it negative, but I think by and large the majority of people are hearing things that they've just simply never heard. And you get the few outliers who are, I guess, still hardcore, let's suppress all the history, let's don't talk about this because on some deathbed confession or whatever it was, maybe months before or weeks before John Wimber changed his mind. So let's cover up his entire past, we get some of those as well. I'm more of a fan of, let's document the history

because people seem to be covering up the history in many, many various splinter groups that emerge from Latter-Rain. So here we are today, documenting the history of John Wimber. Yeah, John, I'm ready to keep going.

You know, we've got some more interesting stuff to talk about today, and I got to preface this one, the same I have preface everyone before we start this arc, John. I really am reluctant to talk about these guys.

I really am, you know, and one way I don't really have a dog in the fight, you know, I don't, I don't have much to do with any of that stuff. And my main interest is I've said all along through this is, going through these branches of the Latter-Rain movement, is it exercises finding places that I just don't want to go when I've left the message, you know, I'm not interested in jumping into another branch of the Latter-Rain movement, that is highly likely to produce another cult, because I firmly believe the doctrines of the Latter-Rain movement are a

cult factory, and I just don't want anything to do with that, John. And so here we go today, John, we're talking about one of the, we're really talking about how three branches of the Latter-Rain movement reconverged to produce the new Apostolic Reformation.

And again, I've said before I feel like these things are just kind of obvious, but maybe they're not, maybe they're not, maybe they're only obvious to people who are on the outside looking in.

But we are on the outside looking in towards the new Apostolic Reformation, and what's really ironic about the new Apostolic Reformation, John, and about this third wave of Pentecostalism is, I remember when all these things happened.

That's all happened in our lifetime, John. And the sects of the message, especially, I know the sect I come from, we were very keenly observing everything that happened because the events which gave birth to the new apostolic reformation actually fit into message eschatology.

William Brannum had a teaching, a set of sermons called False and Noided Ones at the End Time. This is a famous message sermon. I'm sure you know all about this one, John. This is a very famous message sermon.

The False and Noided Ones at the End Time. And in this sermon, William Brannum, he, at the time, he was definitely talking about oral robberts in A.A. Alan. This is who he had sermon was against.

But over time, the cult repurposed it, you know, because it didn't really get fulfilled with oral robberts in A.A. Alan. But the essential concept is in the last days, there would arise a false version of the message.

And the false version of the message would be doing signs and wonders and miracles, and they would steal some of our teachings and doctrines and beliefs. And they would do a lot of things like us, but they would reject our holiness standards.

And these false and Noided Ones would lead the masses of Christianity to damnation and the tribulation, John, by the rest of us escaped out of here, you know, in the rapture. And so when the, the new apostolic reformation began to come together, John, and the Toronto blessing and all this stuff is happening in the new apostolic reformation, the people in the message are very keenly aware that it is some of our preachers going into the vineyard movement in these other places, teaching message ideology.

We're keenly aware that Paul Cain and the others were going around doing this. And we were keenly aware that they were importing elements of our belief system. And our preachers very boldly proclaimed from our platforms that the people forming the new apostolic reformation was the false and Noided Ones at the end time.

And therefore the Toronto blessing was a sign that Doomsday was upon us all, right? And we were Doomsday call. And so they never missed an opportunity, John, to teach us all that we're all about, you know, the world's about to burn up.

And so we better stay, you know, you know, obey the message. And so that's what the Toronto blessing was in the church. So we were, we were watching all of this and spies were sent into vineyard and to these churches from my sect of the message to gather data and bring it back and would report back.

And you know, they'd come back and Raymond Jackson would confirm goes, yes, indeed, ladies and gentlemen, I can confirm to you these are the false and Noided Ones. And that's how we looked at the new apostolic reformation.

So we had, in real time, our cult viewpoint of what was going on in these movements, John. And so that's incredibly ironic, right? And I start that going out and maybe John, maybe we can put up here a few quotes.

We don't have to spend a whole lot of time on this, but Paul Cain got skewered by the I mean, coming to the 1990s, the message was turning on Paul Cain like nobody's business.

I mean, I think Levail was the first one to practically burn Paul Cain in effigy for taking the beliefs of the message to the false, anointed ones. I mean, there was there was veritable outrage across multiple sects of the message.

How dare Paul Cain take our blessed holy revelations of the message and feed and feed the swirl the pearls and the meats and the revelations of God to the swine, right? I mean, it was like that.

That is how the message viewed this whole thing. And again, I know that people in all that, they don't even know any of that happened, right? They don't even know that that's what was happening in message churches and reaction to what was going on.

But there's absolutely awareness through all those years that message preachers were going to all these places and giving away our blessed revelations to the NAR, to the vineyard guys, to the Toronto blessing people.

We were, that's what happened, right? That's what happened. And there's lots of recordings from preachers back then talking all about of that and characterizing it that way in those years. And I think that's the closest we'll ever come to hearing that Charles was a spy.

But there were no, there were no avadka martinis in Charles's case. So, you know, I don't have a dog in the fight either. Whenever I began studying Wembre, it wasn't because I was studying Wembre.

It was mostly because I was studying Paul Cain. That's how all of this began. And specifically, I was studying exactly what you're describing. How did this splinter group emerge from the doctrines that we had from William Brannum?

And it's difficult because if you look at one of the NAR groups right now, their doctrines are significantly different from Brannum's. But if you understand the architecture and the framework that it was developed from, you can kind of see how it evolved.

But you have to look at each milestone along the way in its evolution. Wembre was one of those milestones. That's really how all of this started. And I was specifically looking at the kingdom theology because William Brannum was not teaching the dominionism like they do in the NAR.

There was no seven mountains mandate in the form that it exists today. I'll just say it like that. But I was studying the kingdom theology specifically because if you look at the transmission of this thing from what William Brannum taught through Wembre taught through kingdom now, through all the way to the, you know, what the NAR has is their kingdom theology, you can find how it, the extrabiblical things that Brannum taught, how those began to spin like a snowball going down a hill.

And for me, each phase of its evolution, it... It's really the same doctrine. It just has different details surrounding the doctrine. So as I'm looking at the kingdom theology, Wimbler's kingdom theology to me is no different than kingdom now theology.

And as I began writing the page and looking at it, I had one of the Wimbler cult, I don't know what you call the guy, but he basically was, somebody who was wanting to set me up.

And he comes in and his first attack was really the kingdom theology. He said, Wimbler did not teach kingdom now. And I was trying to explain, well, yes and no. The kingdom theology as it developed was very much the same.

And it all came from Brannum's foundation. But I'm glad it happened because in talking to him, I began to understand, I can't really explain this without going really deep into describing that foundation. Because when I assume people see that all of this is the same, if you've been taught that this is biblical, what they teach today, well, you're not going to see all the milestones along the way.

So I had to take a step back and start going deeper into the history. Part of that we're doing today, but more of it, I'm continuing to do on the website. But make no mistake, Wimbler working with Paul Cain.

That is how we developed into the mess that we see today. There's so much complexity and nuance in this all, John. And in these, even in, you know, this is what our fourth episode, we might have one more after this, there's just not adequate time to address all of the nuance of all of it.

Then you've got the shepherding people themselves, you know, the shepherding preachers, the shepherding followers that Derek Prince and Bob Muffer and those guys had converted, some of them actually joined into Vineyard as a shepherding movement in the 80s.

That makes a second faction. And then you get a period of time, John, as you come into the middle 80s, where the Kansas City prophets, John, and the tangled, ladder rain web that they are connected to, which includes the message, they start making their entrance into Vineyard.

And when, when they come in John, when they come into Vineyard in the 80s, they, especially through Paul Cain, are already connected to a network of churches outside of Vineyard, which have been ladder rain churches for decades.

Okay? Paul Cain comes from, you know, roots of this that have connections all the way back to Sharon orphanage, all, you know, the very heart of the message, to the heart of William Brannum's, groups, all that.

So as he comes in, John, he is networking, he's networking in other of the ladder rain prophets. He's networking in other of the ladder rain preachers. He's networking in other branches of the ladder rain movement, too.

All right? You've had that, you know, that really nice lady on your podcast number times, Laura Lynn, I think, was her name. And she comes from a branch of the of the ladder rain ideology.

McCain played a role in networking all of these groups together, because back in those days the ladder ring factions, a lot of them had turned on each other, right? But vineyards, what was happening in vineyard, kind of gave a breath of fresh life into it all.

And within these other branches of the movement, John, they already had the apostles. They already had the prophets. There was already a global apostolic network in the message before vineyard even existed. There was already global apostolic networks in the ladder ring branches before vineyard ever even got going, right?

And what's happening is John Wimber is opening the doors and he's letting key figures in these pre-existing apostolic networks come into the vineyard movement. All came being the most prominent example of this. And their networking vineyard churches to this movement on the outside, the ladder ring movement that's been there all along.

And as all of this is happening, John, as this influence coming directly from branches of the ladder ring vineyard is happening, C. Peter Wagner, Charles Peter Wagner, was also vineyard in those years. And he sees what they're doing.

And he says he coins the term new apostolic reformation. And he coins that to what he sees of these growing apostolic networks with vineyard. And here's the thing. I think he had to realize, and John Wimber had, I think they had to realize that this thing wasn't new.

They had to realize, and they just, I don't know, they like to always repackage it and say it's new, right? They can't say, hey, this is the next phase of the ladder ring because they, you know, the ladder ring, they knew it was a crazy movement.

They can't say this is the next phase of the message, right? Because they know the message is a crazy movement. But what is honestly happening, John, is the apostles and the prophets of the senior branches of the ladder ring are coming into vineyard and commissioning new apostles and new prophets, both vineyard and in some of the other groups in orbit of this.

And what they commission in those years is the new apostolic reformation. And there's nothing new about it. It is just a continuation of the fivefold ministry structures of the ladder ring movement in its various iterations and its various branches, the message being one of those branches.

And so the new apostolic reformation, John, that's why when you and I look at it and people from our backgrounds look at it, we're like, oh my goodness, there's so many similarities, there's so much the same and it even looks appealing.

And I've even seen people, you know, from our group, like, how is it possible that these people seem so similar to us? Well, they must have had a divine revelation from God themselves. How else could they have got so much like us?

Well, the answer is no, they didn't have divine revelations from God. It's there's different branches of the same ideology and they got the same idea. is the same concepts from the same root source in the latter reign as we did.

And fivefold ministry is one of the key distinctive doctrines of the latter reign movement. And fivefold ministry is New Apostolic Reformation, John, it's the exact same thing. It's the same thing. Earlier I said that whenever I was studying John Wember, I was looking at the kingdom theology, the framework, the architecture.

And I've learned that I have to break things down. I can't just make statements like that because by and large people who were indoctrinated in this type of movement can't really pick it up because it takes a lot of work to do the ground work and understand what is Christianity and how am I different from Christianity.

That takes a lot of work and honestly, it takes a lot of breaking down your pride. It took years for me to break down my pride enough to realize, well, what I believe wasn't quite right.

As I'm looking at this architecture, there are five main points that I look at. The first one is the way in which the kingdom is presented with John Wembers theology and with Brannems and with NAR.

There is an expectation for the supernatural. That's why you have Bethel's supernatural school. I think they call it Hogwarts and other funny names. They use those names when you're not in this group because the expectation is for the supernatural.

In mainstream Christianity, mainstream Christianity does not discard miracles. Miracles are possible, but they're viewed as rare and they're not viewed as something that is, something that is expected in daily practice. But when you're in Brannems theology, Wembers theology, NAR, it is an expectation that daily, you're going to have some sort of expectation of the supernatural, whether it's angels and demons, whether it's healing, whether it's positive confession, whatever is their model for this, they have this.

The second thing is power evangelism. Wembers credited for it, but that's not where it came from. Wembers got it from, likely from Paul Cain and others like Cain, along this development. There is a notion that evangelism must be accompanied by signs and wonders.

In mainstream Christianity, evangelism is focused on teaching doctrine, personal testimony, power encounters, if you can even really call it that. I question whether you can call it that. The very rare in mainstream Christianity, and that's why in the later reign movement, Brannems would say mainstream Christianity is cold form of religion, we are not, because we have power evangelism.

There's power in what we do. There's signs and wonders, and they would have... retires even in their meetings, signs and wonders. The next thing is the use of spiritual gifts, and obviously in the charismatic movement, that's where the core is.

The core of what they believe in Pentecostalism, Charismatic Movement, NAR, it is this use of spiritual gifts, and in mainstream Christianity, they still believe in the gifts, but they're not emphasized. It's not the core.

In other words, the gifts are the byproduct of being a good Christian, not what makes you a good Christian. In Charismatic Christianity, it is the core. In the Charismatic Movement, there's this concept of training to, I guess I'll use the word activate.

You train to activate the supernatural. In other words, we're expecting that we're going to have this power evangelism, so if you're going to be an evangelist, you have to be trained how to activate whatever this is that you believe.

For a rank and file member, for a lay member, there's this expectation of constant supernatural in your life, so how do you activate that? In mainstream Christianity, because their core is not this, there's no reason to have this training, so that's sort of extra biblical.

But the last thing is the church model. In Latter-Rain, they taught that the church's mainstream churches were cold and formal. You go, there's a structure. You're expected to sing some songs, worship, hear a sermon, and sometimes at the end there will be a testimony.

There is a structure in an order to the service. Now it changes from denomination to denomination, but by and large there is a structure. In the model that was established by Latter-Rain, somewhat before this in Pentecostalism, the church model is really kind of free-flowing.

You have many of the elements that you see in mainstream Christianity, but there's always this dedicated time at the end for healing, deliverance, prayer line. They basically structure their services in such a way that you can see this power evangelism.

To the Wembur crowd, who argues that no, the kingdom theology is different, if you understand that framework, that's how you understand Wembur theology really is no different than kingdom now, just in the naming.

The NAR version of the kingdom theology is really much the same. The structure is exactly the same. It's just how it is preached, the trivial details of the doctrine, and how it's implemented. Those are the differences, but the core is exactly the same.

As far as power evangelism, that goes back old in this ideology too. All the way back to the 40s, they were doing that power evangelism stuff, where yes, we're going to convert the people with signs and wonders rather than the gospel, which is again, we talked about in our last video.

Step-as-so, Jesus said in a wicked and adulterous generation seeks for the sign, but the only sign given is the sign of the resurrection, as Jonas was three days of three nights in the hearts of the earth.

So the Son of Man will be three days of the hearts of the night of the earth. The resurrection, the gospel, is how you convert the people, not signs, wonders, and miracles. And that power of angelism, he has absolutely the sort of stuff that they were promoting.

I'm not aware of Chuck Smith promoting power of angelism as far as I know. I could be mistaken, but I've never come across him actually promoting that. But yeah, it's basically that they would use the gifts of the spirit to attract the masses and do all that. Yeah, and that's deep in this ideology as well.

But one of the big components of all this, and let me throw in one other thing, John. John Wimber rejected power of angelism at the end of his life, too, John. We go through these Wimber letters. He rejected all this stuff in here, you know, in this book. I want to talk about this if we get time, too.

He changes mind on all the books. I know. They still sell the book. Hey, you want to find where he rejects it in this? I mean, I could find you the page. But it's right about the middle of this book. He says, it's basically a section where he says, should signs lead or should signs follow? And basically, he changes his mind that, no, signs shouldn't be leading the way for us. Instead, those signs should follow, which is, I'll be honest, John, John Wimber, this is a good book, what he did in here.

This is good stuff. I mean, if they would take this stuff and actually follow it, they'd be a lot better off. And the ones who have taken the stuff he said in there and followed it, they are better off. Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started, or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism, transition through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation?

You can learn this and more on William Brannum Historical Research's website, William-Brannum.org. On the book's page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Steven Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.

You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top. And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching. On behalf of William-Brannum Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support. Coming back to Manifested Sons of God, because what makes the new apostolic reformation, the new apostolic reformation, isn't, to me, it isn't really Manifested Sons of God. That don't really make the new apostolic reformation,

the new apostolic reformation. What makes them the new apostolic reformation is their structure of apostles and prophets and so forth. And that is Fifold Ministry. Fold ministry is what makes them the new apostolic reformation and then yeah the rest they just have their own flavor manifest its sons of God and stuff which which also was in the message in in its own way and and John let me talk about that just a minute because I know I noticed in some of the comments sections like it it seems like there is confusion around where fivefold ministry came from fivefold ministry came into this ideology via

ladder rain fivefold ministry does not exist outside of the ladder rain movement and its branches it does not exist if you are using fivefold ministry concepts terminology and language you got that from a branch of the ladder rain movement that is where it came from and if you think you got it from somewhere else you've been tricked deceived confused you're looking at it wrong it came from the ladder rain movement and that is so important to wrap your mind around like because fivefold ministry is one of the core distinctive doctrines of the ladder rain movement right and so I know that it's important

if you're in this ideology to try and justify it to say that it didn't come from the ladder rain and it's very important to find another place to but the truth of the matter is everywhere the fivefold ministry is in the world today came through the ladder rain movement they are the ones who popularized it and and these and and and the fivefold ministry has two really important pieces John that that that produced the new apostolic reformation one piece of it is that in in the past the church lost the apostles and prophets and in the last days this fivefold ministry needs to be

restored which includes restoring apostles and prophets so the very premise that apostles and prophets were lost and need to be restored that's one component of fivefold ministry but another component of fivefold ministry which is equally important John is that they believe that the fivefold ministry is necessary to do the task of equipping the church with the powers and the signs and the wonders and the perfect unity in order to bring them into completion perfection maturity the man child there's different ways to term it but the fivefold ministry is the means to get the church into this completed state and when this ideology was

originally formulated fivefold ministry was the means to get the church to manifest its sons of god right they started out with the notion that we're going to get to this manifest its sons of god state and they they started to go back and and basically hunt and find in the bible how do we get there how do we get to perfection how do we get to completion and they they came across the verses around in Ephesians 4 and they started to develop up the belief that we need to restore a fivefold ministry, which is their version of what they

think those verses mean. And that fivefold ministry will then perfect complete the church, bring it into that final state of empowerment of unity, perfect unity, perfect perfection, perfect all of this. And then in that state, that church can then achieve manifested sons of God, they can achieve the kingdom on earth, they can achieve the the end-of-day scenario, right? And so fivefold ministry has those two important pieces. The idea that the apostles and prophets need restored, therefore they're commissioning apostles and prophets. And the belief that that fivefold ministry has the special mission to complete, finish, perfect mature the church for its end-of-day state, which

empowers it. And that concept, those two elements of ideas came out of Laterane and spread far and wide. And there are ways in which the fivefold ministry beliefs evolved after you left the message, or after it left of the Laterane, but it still, most of it contains those two essential concepts.

And now, John, I know like in the message where we come from, the churches you come from are the tape churches, right? And of all the sex of the message, your your sect of the message was the least end-of-fivefold ministry, okay? But pretty well, every other sect of the message is drowning up to their eyeballs in fivefold ministry. It is the means to get to perfection. We didn't believe the means to perfection was just the tapes. The means to perfection also included the fivefold ministry. And so these teachings are, again, I know these ones backwards and forwards too, John.

And this is a version of this is what got into the New Apostolic Reformation. Their first version of it came in through the, through the Kansas City, through the Shepherding Movement, but then they got a new revised advanced version of it through Paul Cain and stuff when they started to intersect with the other branches of the Laterane Movement, okay? And let me say one last thing too.

One last thing on fivefold ministry, just to help help people, okay? To put this together, because it can be hard to accept what I'm saying that fivefold ministry only comes from the Laterane Movement. And again, I want to point everybody to a book. This is a great book, The New Care's Midics by Michael Moriardi. And John, the stuff you're talking about, how manifest it sounds of God came into the NAR, this book traces that path. And you're correct. It goes through John Wimbler's Kingdom Theology, okay? That was a stepping stone into it. But this also traces how

they got the fivefold ministry stuff too. And I want to encourage, get this book read it. It'll give you all of the, how all that happened. Ladies and gentlemen, what happened, John, is I found this book while I was still in the message. And this book, indeed, says that fivefold ministry came from the latter reign. That's where it popularized from. And when I found this, I'm like, no, absolutely not. Can't be impossible. No way. He's got to be wrong. And so I did not accept that Fivefold ministry came from the latter reign because this book said so. You know why

how I came by that belief, John? Look at these books on myself. I have the primary sources of all of these guys. I have the primary source. I have the writings of the latter reign elders on my shelf over here. I got all kinds of stuff, John. Byfold ministry came from the latter reign, John. It did. This guy's right. He was right. It did come from there. And that's what I found by looking through all the primary sources. And let me tell you, if you guys want to look this up, how to do it? When you think of terms from the Bible, Fivefold ministry is not a term in the Bible,

you Fivefold ministry is not in the Bible. There are terms that are developed over time that are used as shorthand to refer to specific beliefs. There's a term, for example, like the hypostatic union, hypostatic union is not in the Bible, right? But people use that to refer to a belief they think they see in the Bible. Fivefold ministry is the same thing. It's a term that is not in the Bible. But people use it to refer to a belief they think they see in the Bible. And you can take that term, Fivefold ministry. And you can go look, who are the people who coined that term? And you

can follow through history, the people using that term. And John, if you follow through history, all the people using the term, Fivefold ministry, where do the dots converge? They converge on the ladder rain movement. They all came out of the ladder rain movement, John, like Derek Prince, who passed her to church with one of the elders of the Sharon Orphanage, right? Or Ern Baxter, whose members of his congregation were elders of Sharon Orphanage, or William Brannum, who the core of the early message came from the ladder rain movement, right? The ladder rain movement is where Fivefold ministry beliefs came from. Now the ladder rain movement got the beliefs out of the

British Israel branch of early Pentecostalism. So they do have a past, right? You can trace it further back, a little further back, through the British Israel branch of Pentecostalism. But ladder rain is where those ideas exploded into what they are today. And that is where people actually got them from today. And so I just encourage you to go look, if you have Fivefold ministry, it's important to actually acknowledge you believe a distinctive doctrine that was developed and promoted by the ladder rain movement, right? And then manifest its sons of God being another one.

And those two originally came as a package deal. Fivefold ministry was the means to get you to manifest its sons of God, the kingdom now on earth, okay? All right? And that is what they got.

In the New Apostolic Reformation, it's what John Wimber was slowly building towards. It is the same ideology, they just change the terminology a little bit, that's all it is. I recommend anybody who thinks that the Fivefold Ministry is biblical, go study what the word Apostle means.

Just look it up, it's a messenger that's sent out, right? Just otherwise, what kind of Apostle Messenger are you? It's more of a hierarchy than it is describing what Apostle even means. There's so much there to unpack and to work through, and if we had time, maybe we could do another episode at some point down the road and talk through some of the elements of all that.

Because again, this was a core doctrine where I come from, and there's so many nuances to all of this. There's just so many nuances. A person can hardly pack them all in

in just a short episode of these things. When you come to the end of John Wimber's life, John,

you're on the other side of the Toronto blessing, you're on the other side of things starting to go crazy. Well, guess what, John Wimber repudiates Fivefold Ministry too, John. He turns on that. So not only does he, look, here's a whole chapter in his pastoral letters on Fivefold Ministry.

Right, John Wimber turned on these beliefs and what is so, just like when he rejected power evangelism in this book. Here he's rejecting Fivefold Ministry. What he's doing, John, is,

and this is, again, we could call this a tad deceptive. He don't say in here, hey guys, I'm changing my mind. You have to know that he was teaching something else before. He's changing his mind here.

What he says about Fivefold Ministry here is the opposite about what he said about Fivefold Ministry in the 80s. What he says about power evangelism and signs and wonders in here, so it is the opposite of what he said in the 80s.

And he, and when you're inside one of these movements, John, I used to be inside one of these movements in a leadership position. I can understand why John Wimber did that because you can, he's trying to, I think, John, I mean, I think he maybe he's trying to turn the ship on it, turn the ship slowly, right?

And if he jumps out and says, in a really bold way, Fivefold Ministry is of the devil, we reject it. Signs and wonders miracles leading the ways of the devil, we reject it. Well, all kinds of people would have turned their back, but when he goes at it this way and he don't say, hey guys, I'm changing my mind, I was wrong.

When he goes at it this way, he can gently lead people away from it, right? Maybe had he lived longer, he might have been more successful at it, but he is very clearly changing his mind on Fivefold Ministry.

He is very clearly changing his mind on Signs Wimber's miracles leading the way through power evangelism in here, right? He's very clearly changing his mind on positive confession in this in this and it starts roughly about the middle of this book Which which was wrote the middle of this book starts being wrote after the Toronto blessing Okay, and in the last three and four years of his life and the fine and the actual rejection of five-fold ministry comes The last year of his life is when this one is wrote It's actually I think it might be six three or four months before he died comes out this rejection of five-fold ministry and

What happens John is he continues to use five-fold ministry language He continues to use ladder rain language, but then he starts putting slightly different definitions to things and Moving it in in in a better direction, and you know to people who are from this ideology You know if if you take John Wimbler's definition of five-fold ministry here and John Wimbler's definition of signs and wonders what he does in this book It's probably it's not really that bad anymore. You know that John Kind of he turns it into something not all that bad, right? If you're practicing it the way this in this book

I'll be honest. I don't think I really got a problem with it But that's not what he was doing before right? That's not what was happening before right and and what what we have what was happened And before is what's in the new apostolic reformation so as John Wimbler's life rolls on John and And all of the commissioning of apostles and prophets and the creation and expansion of the five-fold ministry networks Inviniered and the Toronto blessings happening I don't know why John Wimbler woke up. I really do not know why John Wimbler changed his mind, right?

Because just like Derek Prince you can find towards the end of their life where they're saying the opposite of what they said earlier in their life But they don't tell you why John Wimbler don't really tell us why he changed his mind on all this stuff and we're just left to guess at their motives And you know, we can assume it's good motives, but I want to tell you I Want to tell you a thought of mine John and you tell me what you think John Wimbler was like I think he was literally on his deathbed in August 1997

Where are the odds John Wimbler never even wrote this? What are the odds that other people wrote this stuff for him when he was dying and published it for him? What are the odds, you know, and that's that's kind of my my deep thinking I don't I don't even really know that John Wimbler wrote this Nobody really knows that John Wimbler wrote this all we know is some guy said hey I'm editing John Wimbler's letters and here's the one he wrote on his deathbed ladies in gentlemen Did John Wimbler actually write that? I don't know if he wrote that or not

But nevertheless this is got John Wimbler's name on it and it was published after he died As far as I know it was published more or less after he died the book, but Anyways, I would encourage anyone in vineyard John or anybody that's that's that respects John Wimbler Just read this book if you're if you're following, you know, the more healthier model that he put in the end of this you're probably not in such a bad state, but nevertheless, this still remains a gateway to the crazy ideology.

You're still using the terminology and ideas and concepts that came from the latter reign, if you follow John Wimper's stuff in here, which is a gateway to the crazy. And I still don't want the gateway to the crazy either, John, so, you know, you can still be healthy, you had a gateway to crazy, and be something I don't necessarily want to be part of.

John, I feel like we've been all over the place with this episode today, but hopefully we said something that's useful to our listeners. You know, I too question whether or not John Wimper wrote those letters.

There's the problem is we'll never know who actually wrote them unless somebody who did write them confesses and said, hey, I wrote this John Wimper did not write this. But for me, that argument, since it can never be answered, that's not where my head goes.

We have examined very thoroughly through the course of our podcasts. People who have been taught this very, very false theology from Brannum, the framework that was laid, and we have talked about people who died because of it.

People who have been spiritually led astray. People who have been under authoritarian control in their lives ruined. This is a cascade of error that developed from Brannumism. If you at the end of your life realized, I have taught something that have caused people to die physically and spiritually.

I have taught things that maybe not to the same level of extreme as some of the extreme cases of the splinter groups, but had the potential to develop into authoritarian cults where people's lives were ruined.

I believe that if he actually wrote this, he would be so explicit in saying that I denounce everything that I have said prior to this. I was wrong, and if you follow the things that are wrong from my teachings, then you have the potential to die, be led astray, spiritual death, bad things can happen.

I would say also remove every single thing, every single trace of my publications because I don't want that to fall into the wrong hands. I would say this, if it were me, would Wemberset, I don't know, it all depends on what kind of character he was.

So for me, it goes back to the character more than the question that he write them or not. When I look at the people like John Wembers, like Lonnie Frisbee, like Derek Prince, men of that caliber, I have not formed a personal opinion on them as individuals.

I really don't know what to make of them. They're enigmas to me, John, kind of like Gordon Lindsay, he's an enigma to me. I cannot figure it out. What is going on in that head of theirs?

But what I do know is they're teaching the same ideology, they're teaching elements of the same ideology that they... learn from the same sources that comes all the way back to the same roots in the latter rain. And I know that ideology is dangerous. And so while some of these people may have been perfectly fine, good people on their own, they were promoting an ideology that everywhere it goes, positive confession manifests as sons of God, fivefold ministry, and combination, produces horrors, John. It produces horrors. If you get those three things in combination, they just produce terrible things. They do. And I look at the three of those things like

like dials, John, where you can kind of go from low medium high, you can get fivefold ministry, low medium high. You can get manifested sons of God, low medium high. You can get positive confession, low medium high. And if you get all three of those dials up on high, you get a Jones town massacre. You get a faith assembly Warsaw massacre. You get Harvard Freeman. You get mass death when you turn all three of those up on high. That has happened over and over in this ideology. Mass death when you turn all those up on high. And when

you get them down on lower levels, you know, there's still deaths that happen in these things. John, there's deaths that happen in the churches I come from. There's deaths that happen in the churches you come from. Part of the reason I left the message to begin with is because people were unnecessarily dying from the ramifications of this ideology.

That was more than anything. What started waking me up, watching people die, you know, and this ideology has a long, long, long history and track record of that. And it's very unfortunate. I am not the least bit worried about the new apostolic reformation taken over America, John. That's never going to happen. You guys are crazy. What do you guys think that's ever going to work out for you? You guys are nuts. I mean, you're never going to take over nothing. Man, you couldn't even take over Chicago. I mean, let alone America.

So that's never going to happen. It's all a pipe dream, John, like they don't scare me from that respect. But they'll be harmful to the people in it. Well, people are already being hurt. People continue to be hurt. It's a sad and unfortunate thing that movement in that ideology. What they're chasing is a pipe dream. They are not going to become manifested sons of God. They are not going to be empowered as Christ on earth in the way that they think. The things that they're chasing are a fantasy, John. Is there even a last day revival in the Bible? You know, I don't know. You know, on this side of the message,

I don't really, again, this is my opinion. People out there might have a different opinion. I don't even think last day revival is in the Bible. I don't think it's there. I mean, maybe that 144,000 stuff, the last day revival, maybe, you know, but who knows even what that is. I mean, it's vague, right? I mean, it could just be something with Jewish people in the land of Israel, right? It might not have none to do with us at all. You know, the way you...

read it. So is there a last day global revival? I don't see it in the Bible. I mean, the Bible says the world gets worse and worse and worse, not better and better. But I mean, so I mean, the whole thing is a pipe dream, John. I mean, I just, it's very hard for me to even go along with most of the core concepts of that ideology anymore. You know, the apostles and prophets and pastors and teachers and evangelists of the first generation equip the church with everything they need, to be perfected and unified and reach the, you know, the fullness of the stature of Christ. You

know, we don't need new ones to do it. It's all, we already got everything we need in the Bible to get to that state. We just need to keep following what they gave us to begin with.

And you don't need positive confession is not faith. Positive confession is false witness. But positive confession is breaking one of the 10 commandments, right? I mean, it's not even, it's a sin. Positive confession is a sin. And I have, I have developed some strong beliefs around these things on the other side of the message, John. And I don't, I have generally avoided sharing my own viewpoints on these doctrines because I don't know. I was in a cult my whole life.

I might still be confused. You know what I mean, John? So ladies and gentlemen, don't take something just because I said it. All right. I am not like our false prophet. I am not, I am not the great authority. Okay. Look into these things yourself. You know, look into some of these books.

The New Charismatics by Michael Moriarty. This is a fantastic book. It really will take you through this ideology. And I didn't believe a thing in this book when I read it. Okay. I'm telling you, I only believe the stuff in this book because I went through primary sources trying to figure out this guy was confused. But Mr. Michael Moriarty, I'm sorry. You were not confused. I don't even know if this man's still alive. But you were right, sir. You were right about it all. And I was wrong.

And John, the new, the counterfeit reformation by Hank handgrap. This was wrote while Toronto blessing was going on and stuff. This guy was there and witnessed and went through some of these things. This is another terrific book where a guy was debunking this while it was happening.

Counterfeit revival, Hank handgrap. Look into John Wimbler's pastoral letters. He indeed rejected the dangerous pillars of this ideology at the end of his life. He rejected fivefold ministry formulation that he had been promoting earlier. He rejected the signs, wonders, miracles should lead the way model in this book. He rejected really the extremes of positive confession even in this book. And so what he did, John, and I make sure I end on this note, at the end of John Wimbler's life. The Toronto blessing churches are split, are split away. The church is influenced by that split away. The church is influenced by the Kansas City prophets split away. Numerous churches

divide and schism and split out of vineyard. Because John Wimbert he is he is indeed Rejecting at new apostolic reformation beliefs. He's saying no there will be no new apostles and prophets, right? Only a few years after saying oh After only a few years after saying Paul canes the greatest prophet there ever was right now. He's saying no. There will be no apostles and prophets He changed his mind And of course, you know what happened when John Wimbert started saying these things Paul cane had a great miraculous experience from God John that that John Wimbert was turning away from the

Miraculous and turning away from the move of God and John Wimbert rather Paul cane issued this great prophecy You'll actually find this reference, I think in some of my pickle stuff Paul cane issued this great prophecy and Lots and lots of people across the vineyard churches that were being influenced by this stuff heated Paul Cain's prophecy and Broke away from vineyard and What they formed when they broke away John was already the new apostolic Reformation. They were already the new apostolic Reformation when they were in vineyard and as they break away Paul Cain and the other Kansas City prophets and the other laterane guys some of them they brought in

They have already connected this faction of vineyard with the pre-existing laterane networks They're already connected to some message churches. They're already connected to You know like like Regillot lezel's glad tidings tabernacle right where where that Lord Lynn nice Lord Lynn lady is from They're already connected to these people before they break away and as they break away they're now Bringing together they're they're finding a new home in the latterane movement the pre-existing latterane movement churches and They're joining in with their pre-existing fivefold ministry structures and this new apostolic Reformation is taking off and it literally is at that point

It is the faction of vineyard that was expelled and it was a variety of other pre-existing laterane Apostolic networks merging together To form the new apostolic Reformation and and and I've kind of said before the best way to look at it is it's not a hierarchy It's not a hierarchy This thing hasn't been a hierarchy since the 1950s What it is today is it is competing?

It is competing hierarchies. It's competing Apostles and prophets with their own independent networks and There are points and times where they cooperate together There are points and times when they're competing with each other and what are they competing for ladies in gentlemen?

They're competing for you They're competing to have you in their seats You are the prize ladies in gentlemen. You are what they are competing for and in that I think is my biggest issue with John Wember it isn't that I don't think he's a good guy I think he probably was a good guy. I think his heart may have been in the right place and there are many people who have vouched for that But what he did was he gave all of this architecture that I'm describing credibility and that I think was his biggest mistake and he never really apologized for giving it credibility because

of his endorsement for ministries like Paul Cain and others. The problem was people who saw the endorsement, they moved towards it and that ideology was able to continue and actually grow bigger than what we had in later reign.

I would say that what we see today is much, much larger and more global than what we had with William Brannum. So he gave credibility to all of this and it is a mess.

So much more we could get into, maybe next time we'll go a little bit deeper into the messes that were created. So if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.

You can find us at www.William-Branum.org and www.ChristianGospelChurch.org. For more about the history of William Brannum and the healing revivals, read Come Out of Her My People and for more about the dark side of the new Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR.

Both available on Amazon, Kindle and Audible.