Boom, Bust, and Control: Why Manifested Sons Doctrine Always Ends in Destruction

Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Brandham Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Brandham Historical Research at William-brandham.org and with me I have my co-host, researcher, minister, and friend Charles Paisley, the founder of ChristianGospelChurch.org and the author of Come Out of Her My People. Charles, I'm really excited for today talking about one of the most interesting topics as it relates to both what we came out of and the new Apostolic Reformation and that is the manifested sons of God. I know that we've talked about it in various other episodes but I think we need to take a deep dive

so that people understand how and why the new Apostolic Reformation has developed into what it is and also where it came from, how militant this is. I grew up like I said in this religion that had this as a theology. I'll be honest until I left it. I really didn't understand what it was and then once I did I'm like oh my gosh I can't believe that we were in something that believed this.

It's a pretty interesting John. I'm kind of looking forward to today's episode too. In part I'm looking forward to today's episode John because this is the last one we got to talk about these guys for a while. If our listeners remember this is the kind of our fifth episode in an arc where we have been looking at the dots that connect from the ladder rain up to the new Apostolic Reformation and this whole second series of podcast John we've been doing. I've just been going through my book, my second book chapter by chapter, come out of my people volume two and in chapter 10 I specifically look at how

the beliefs of you know that we shared in the message and originated in the ladder rain, how those beliefs found their way into the new Apostolic Reformation and the movements in between and how to kind of line those dots up.

And so today we're kind of at the end of that arc and if our listeners remember we kind of trace that path from from the ladder rain movement. You had kind of three main branches, three senior branches that came out of the ladder rain. One of those branches the shepherding movement played a role influencing the early Jesus people and later the vineyard movement and then within that movement, the vineyard movement, they invited in the Kansas City prophets and a whole other branch of the ladder rain movement that had connection deep connections to the message and even the Sharon Orphanage

global missions branch. And within Vineyard, those guys all kind of recombined their ideology and produced what is known today as the New Apostolic Reformation. The New Apostolic Reformation is the grandchild of the latter reign, born in the Vineyard Movement, primarily in the late 1980s and early 1990s towards the end of John Wimbler's life.

He was diagnosed with cancer in 1993. He died in 1997. In those years that he was terminally ill, he decided that the ideology was bad. He rejected a lot of it. In the very last months of his life, he wrote some John Wimbler's pastoral letters where he rejected some of that ideology and set Vineyard on a somewhat of a path of reform after that.

But the people who split and exited from Vineyard after that were the people who then went on to set up the New Apostolic Reformation. And as they come out of there, they're already deeply influenced by the Shepherding Movement, by multiple tangled branches of the latter reign via Paul Cane and the Kansas City Prophets.

Also directly from the message John through other things, we could spend a lot of time on reluctant to say it because we just don't have time to share all the documentation on it. But there is a variety of ways in which the different branches of the latter reign infiltrated into the Vineyard Movement and then into what ended up producing into the New Apostolic Reformation.

Now, like you said, we want to talk a little bit about the manifested sons of God ideology today. And I think something that's just kind of important for our listeners to know and understand is that the different branches of the latter reign movement had different flavors of the manifested sons of God ideology.

And we did a full episode on manifested sons of God somewhere back around episode 35, something like that. But maybe let me just, if you guys want something fuller, you know, you go back and listen to that episode, maybe, and get more details.

But maybe just let me give a quick summary of what manifested sons of God ideology is. And in our last episode, we spent a lot of time talking about fivefold ministry. Well, in this ideology, they needed to restore the fivefold ministry.

And then that fivefold ministry could perfect, complete, mature, unify, bring the church into its last day final state. And that last day final state of the church would more or less enable the church to enter into manifested sons of God.

But I think that just the easiest way to characterize a John is they believe that once people reach the state, some members of the church, some were all members of the church, dependent on, you know, which branch you're looking at, they would become empowered as Christ on earth.

Earth, they would become manifested sons of God. They would be like Christ, really, in power on the Earth, with power to control the weather, with power to speak demons out of this, and power to heal the sick, and power to just do all kinds of great, powerful, miraculous things, right, as Christ on Earth, and it would be Christ on Earth in them.

And these would be the manifested sons of God. And there's the beliefs that this would come about in a great last day revival. So a great revival would happen, and this restoration event would happen, and these people would be empowered in this great, incredible, powerful way, like the church has not been empowered since the days of the Book of Acts, you know, since the day that Christ even was still here on Earth with the church.

And basically, what would happen is the end of day scenario would then ensue following this event. Now, there's a variety of scriptures and ways that they arrived at those conclusions, John, and then there's some older teachings that came out of British Israelism that actually was their basis for coming up with these beliefs.

We're not going to walk through all that. That would take much too much time. But in a nutshell, that is the belief. And early on, John, schisms developed in the latter reign movement over just what to do about this.

And one of the biggest schisms in this ideology, and this happened in the mid-1950s and early 1950s, probably about 54-55, is when the schism really started. You had a section of the latter reign movement that was A millennial, and you had another section of the latter reign movement that was pre-millennial.

And the A millennial group and the pre-millennial group disagreed about how to fit manifested sons of God into their eschatology. And what you had in an A millennial pre-millennial and all of the dispensational beliefs that come around those things, those all predate the latter reign, John.

They're not latter reign specific. But what they did is they started to integrate manifested sons of God into those beliefs. Now, the branch of the movement that you and I come from, John, we were the, we were actually the majority back then.

We were the pre-millennial branch. And what, what our groups did, John, and I'll connect some dots here to help our listeners understand this a little more, but they basically put that manifestation happening shortly before the rapture.

So this manifestation will happen, the church will be empowered on earth, there'll be a short window of time where some things will happen, and then that church will rapture up into heaven. And then after, you know, the wrath of God burns up a bunch of people, they would then come back and set up the global government, the kingdom of God on earth, right?

They would purge out whatever wicked people had survived, you know, the wrath of God, and they would rule and reign over the earth, and the people would be... The people who ever was left living would turn into their servants and there was the rung of ladders, a pyramid where you had the heathens, would be the slaves at the bottom and you know, and then the Jews would get a little higher level and the fake Christians get a little higher level right all the way up to the elite people who have been powered as Christ, you know, in the top or upper levels of this thing.

Okay, so that was the belief that we come from, John, and that kind of manifested, for example, in each sect of the message even a little differently. Like your sect of the message believed in the tent meeting, right?

And so the tent meeting is where William Brannum would give the glorified bodies to the people and they would reach the state before the rapture. Joseph Coleman's thunders group believed that Joseph Coleman was going to give them their glorified bodies, you know, on such and such a date before the rapture and this would happen.

The sect of the message icon, we believe the fivefold ministry would do it through the power of the thunders when the seventh seal was opened, right? And then these other things would happen before the rapture.

Your sect of the message had their own little idea about it and it's the same with all the pre-millennial ladder rain groups. We believe the manifestation would happen and a certain amount of time would pass, then the rapture, then we'd come back and we would exterminate all the unbelievers on the earth who didn't submit to our rule.

Okay, that is, that in a nutshell is the message version of manifested sons of God, you know, end to end. And William Brannum was the first among many to become a manifested son of God was kind of the essential part of the belief set.

Now manifested sons of God, that phrase itself fell out of favor in the eighties. You don't find, it became a lot less common and they changed the terminology somewhat after the eighties, but the belief itself stayed the same.

Well, let's move over to the A millennial branch of the ideology, John. So there's the A millennial side of things where they stopped believing in the rapture. They didn't believe in a rapture anymore.

All of that is sent up to heaven and then the wrath of God thing. They didn't believe in that anymore. And that branch, John, there's a variety of them that went down that road.

Global missions actually themselves went down that road. Several of the other branches that remained in independent assemblies of God went down that road. And what that group does, John, is they integrate manifested sons of God like this.

This manifestation is going to happen in a last-day revival. The church will be empowered as God on earth, Christ on earth, you know, in them. But instead of ascending up to heaven in the rapture, John, they're just going to go straight into taking over the world, okay?

And this was a point of contention in the fifties, right? Do you have the side that says, no, we're going to have the rapture first. And then you have the side that says, no, there's no such thing as a rapture.

We're just going to take over the world, you know, when this happens. And that was a schism in this movement in the fifties, and that was actually part of the schism that led to the breakaway of Sharon Orphanage into their own branch of the movement, John.

That's when George Houghton and his brothers ended up- exiting out of Sharon orphanage and ended up in the message and you know George Warnock and those guys went down their path. So there's a variety of things that cut schisms over this.

Now as we bring this into the new apostolic reformation, John, okay? When this thing got started, it was the shepherding movement branch that was influencing the early Jesus people. Well, they were pre-millennial, John.

They were like the message. They had a softer, even version than what the message had of this. They were in the pre-millennial camp on this. And that was their influence. But as the vineyard movement absorbs all these guys in and roughly in the same timeframe that Paul Cain and the Kansas City prophets are coming in, they're also making contact with the A-millennial branches of this ideology, John.

And for whatever reason, I mean, I don't know, the A-millennial view starts to become the dominant view within the new apostolic reformation. So they reject the pre-millennial discipline, you know, manifest the sons of God view like you and I would have held when we were in the message.

And they accept the A-millennial view, more that's coming from global missions and in that orbit. And so that is how you get into where the new apostolic reformation is today and why they're a little bit scary, okay?

They believe today they have set up their global apostolic network to empower the church on earth. They believe they're heading towards the last day revival where this great manifestation will happen. But instead of, you know, a rapture and Jesus Christ, you know, personally doing some of this stuff, they believe it's their job to take over the world, John.

That's what they believe. And now I'm saying this in really blunt terms, they would dress it up and it would sound a whole lot more crackative, John, if they were going to be the ones describing it, okay?

But that in a nutshell is how the new apostolic reformation got to the A-millennial, got to the manifest the sons of God beliefs they have today and how that they ended up with the A-millennial variant of the beliefs compared to the message which had, you know, a pre-millennial variant.

I don't know, what do you think? Is that interesting? Crazy interesting. I go into this a lot in my latest book from Christian identity to the NAR, but there is a foundational ideology that is behind all of this from its very inception.

And a good example is George Houghton. This is a person who was deeply affiliated with the message he and his brothers, if I understand correctly, and they were part of the movement that believed strongly in the Christian identity ideology.

In 1989, George Houghton was exposed because he had been distributing books and literature on, and this sounds awful, but I have to say it for the podcast, how God created a superior whites that were meant to rule over blacks and blacks were created in God's wisdom to serve whites according to what was exposed. So that ideology was among the leadership who were influencing Sharon Orphanage from which influenced by and large the latter reign movement. You had William Brannum, who's also obviously mentored by white supremacists. So you had this ideology that's growing. But here's where it gets insidious. They used Bible verses with this manifested

sons of God phraseology to make people believe that they could become God in flesh. But they did it in such a way where the casual listener, if you were just to enter into the building and listen to one of the sermons, you wouldn't pick up on it. It wasn't until my grandfather's resignation speech when he said, William Brannum was God, tabernacled in human flesh, that he had openly declared that he believed William Brannum was this manifestation of the Son of God. What they instead did, they would focus very heavily on passages from the Bible that were mysterious or symbolic.

One of the examples, there's a passage in Colossians, I think it's Colossians 1, says, the mystery of Christ is in you. Well, because it has the word mystery, they go very, very deep into their theology of what that mystery is and try to overload it by combining other passages, probably the most common of which is a passage in Romans where it says the world is basically groaning, waiting for the manifestation of the sons of God. So they would say that this manifestation is coming. They would use passages from Romans, passages from Ephesians. I think there's one in

John. So scatter through the Bible. Anything that says something to do with the coming of the Son of Man, what they did was they changed what the coming of the Son of Man was. Every passage that's talking about Jesus, they instead wanted to say that it is this ideology that's coming forward.

And you and I, brothers, are this manifestation that's coming. I never understood it fully while I was in the message. And then after I left and began studying Christian identity, I was I was a poor man. We were we were just in something that was was awful. It was very good to get my family out of it. But where I'm headed with all of this, that was the foundation that was laid.

Then all of these movements started to grow and build upon this, many of which didn't even know they were supposed to be in this white supremacy ideology. So what happened over time is as it transitioned, this false doctrine that was built upon removed many of the racial elements.

And they grew in different directions. He had some groups that wanted to keep the racial elements. They grew into a form of manifested sons of God where there is a race war that is coming.

He had others that just simply wanted to take over the world and brought forth the seven mountains, man, date, etc. But all of it comes from the same foundation. You know, John, there's so much interesting stuff there. This part of the ideology is very quickly becomes crackpot. I've got to say, it's just that. And there's so many flavors of it where there's just nuance in it, right? And if you go all the way back to the 50s though, you're going to find the basic concepts all the way back in the later reign writings from the very beginning of this stuff. That the manifestation would happen through this last day.

Revival. Yes, John, that a man child would be born. A son of man would come. And it would be Christ in the church in a super great powerful way. You know, all the way back to George Warnock's Feast of Tabernacle books had this stuff in it. And then, you know, it would ensue. And all of the proof texts were in that book from the very beginning and through the ideology. And for our listeners' sake, John, you and I are from, you know, we're from the first and second oldest message churches, right? Our friends and family were in this from from pretty well day one of

this ideology, right? And we're not, you know, we're not speaking of things we don't know about, or even things I haven't read about. I actually pulled out here, John. Look, I have a mountain of literature. And these is not message literature, John. This is from these that all every single one of these is wrote by one of the elders of Sharon Orfinage right here. These are the, these are the writings that came out of Sharon Orfinage about these things, okay?

You know, and there's so many of them. And John, I mean, I know this ideology. And when I say, I don't, I don't just know the version of it that we believe where we come from, John, because there's been so many schisms over this stuff over the years that like where I come from, we learned how to argue against every other version of this ideology to prove that ours was the best. And so we didn't just know our version of this ideology. We knew the version of every other branch of the movement so that we could argue against them and prove that our version was

the best. So when I say I know these things like the back of my hand, I know these things like the back of my hand, John. I mean, from fivefold ministry to manifest, it sounds like the entire framework of how this ideology works all the way back to the fifties and stuff when it really took off. I mean, I know this ideology like the back of my hand. And I know each variant and who came up with this and that and those pieces in it and a lot of it because there were points and times where

we had arguments, you know, like I said, how we used to go spy on our own backstreet stuff. We knew we were competing with each other. We were, John, and we were aware of a lot of the connections of the history of this. What was surprising to me though, John, is with elements of it.

There's elements of it I thought was more orthodox than others when I was in it. I never thought manifested sons ago. I never thought that stuff was orthodox, right? I always knew this was some special revelation we had, quote unquote, special revelation.

But elements of it I thought was orthodox. Like I thought fivefold ministry was orthodox for most of my life only to discover. No, that was actually part of the whole package. That's something I didn't, you know, discover until really, you know, my last years in the message.

But, you know, in a nutshell, John, when you come back to this stuff, it gets so crazy. And you can see how this starts to produce radical behavior in people. They're chasing this manifestation, coming via the last day revival to empower them into this end of day state with the ultimate culmination belief that they're going to be the great world powers of the earth.

And the peep, it is so easy to go crazy with this, John, you know, and when you, when the people start to get brainwashed and here's the thing, how, how do they believe that they're going to get there positive confession, they're going to believe it's true.

And then believing it true is going to make it, is going to make it happen. They're going to faith their way into it. They're going to only believe their way into it, right? And so it creates a feedback loop where they don't have to be a shred of evidence that this thing is true.

We're only believing our way into it, right? And they start to get the, you know, the positive confession through the only belief is them, starts to brainwash the people in this stuff, right? And then when you've got the authoritarian leadership model of fivefold ministry, ruling over the thing, John, they channel it in what that went to whatever direction they want.

And it does, it gets, it gets very crazy, this ideology and it has and that's something that's repeated over and over in the history of this ideology, John. You know, in the first volume of, I wrote on message history, I did a short chapter where I traced, you know, the history of this ideology even before Latter-Rain, because this, this ideology didn't actually begin in Latter-Rain, just like it didn't begin in, in New Apostolic Reformation.

New Apostolic Reformation, they just repackaged it, right? Latter-Rain, they just repackaged it. And these things go back in time, actually, as some of it is far back as the 1700s, some of these beliefs.

I think as far as I know, we can credit Jane Leade, actually, as the originator of Manifested Suns of God, right? Just as we can, we can credit Edward Irving as the man who started fivefold ministry beliefs.

You know, there's different elements of this, we can credit to different people and what you see happen in the, in the, in the later 1700s and early 1800s, those beliefs all get imported into British Israelism and then via British Israelism, they transport forward, right?

And as you come into early Pentecostalism, there are two, there are two British Israelite groups of Pentecostals that are important. There are those that came from the influence of John Alexander. But then there's also the ones who came from the influence of his name is Jeffrey's the first name slip in my mind But he's the man who came out of the Welsh Revival and started the Elon Fellowship in the UK So you have Elon in the UK And which then also has churches in North America, but then in North America you have the branches out of Zion out of John Alexander

Dally you got two Small yet influential British Israelite Groups of Pentecostals and they have these ideas already an early Pentecostalism They already have manifested sons of God. They already have fivefold ministry They already have these concepts in early Pentecostalism But here's the thing mainstream Pentecostalism rejected all of that in the first generation Assemblies of God outright rejected those things in their You know conference meetings There's articles ran in the Pentecostal Evangel rejecting like they got rejected by mainstream early Pentecostalism And but but they but they survived in this British Israel portion of Pentecostalism which was slowly dying and then when the latter reign movement happens John

It is the British Israel Pentecostals who launched the latter reign movement it absolutely is you know, it's Elon And they they jump into it real quick because they're already British Israelite so they've got a big connection to it And that's where Bob Monkford comes from you know, we've talked about some of those things before But then you have in North America you have the British Israelites are predominantly within the four square denomination back then John and and four square We know is who planted the Sharon orphanage where later reign started Well anyways They launched this ideology the the the the these ideas and concepts carry forward into latter reign

And we know again mainstream Pentecostalism totally rejected latter reign And it kind of went into this hibernating under the radar approach John surviving in the message and it's branches Surviving in the shepherding movement and it's branches and in those years they dropped the ten lost tribes concept right and a lot of the movement But they kept other they kept a lot of the other elements that came out of British Israelism and That then finds its way into The vineyard movement in the 1980s and 1990s Influences what becomes the new apostolic reformation the ideology John Wimber pushes them out at the end of their lives and they're off

They're off on their tangent today doing doing what they're doing and if you look at the history of this ideology john It is a long string of boom and bust cycles This ideology is a string of boom and bust cycles all the way back to the 1700s Um as far back as you can trace it It's a spin a cycle of boom and bust boom and bust boom and bust the last day revivals coming ladies and gentlemen We've got to get ready hurry hurry hurry we're gonna have this gonna be christ is gonna return in a great way

And we've got a great work to do in order to help with his coming And then it turns out the leaders Well dirt bags, it follows up art and then it repeats itself and it repeats itself and it repeats itself and and here what we're living in today, John, with Mike Bickle and what's happening, you know, art, Lucia, and all these other, it's repeating itself again right now, right?

Daystar, all that right now, there's just there has been a boom cycle of this that has been building since the late 90s, John, and the bus cycle is now in full motion, okay? Because the people have discovered yet again that they, that the leaders were all a bunch of dirt bags, right?

It's just the sad truth of the thing and that's how this ideology iterates and, and, and you know, I don't have to be a prophet, John, to tell you what's going to happen next because I can look at the last ten times that this has happened with this ideology and I can tell you the exact same thing is going to happen again.

Here's what's going to happen, John, a segment of the people are going to wake up and leave and reform and go find their way to Jesus and be just fine, praise the Lord. Another segment of the people are going to be so fanatically devoted to Mike Bickle and any of the others, they're going to be a cult and there is nothing that is ever going to be done to be possible to stop that cult.

They are going to be mindlessly trapped in that cult system and that's going to last for two or three or four generations, right? And eventually they will probably fade out and it's very sad and it's going to get worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and they'll eventually die out.

But then there's going to be a third group that comes out of this, John. And that third group is going to be the group that says, don't throw out the baby with the bath water.

Yes, our leaders turned out to all be dirt bags. Let's try to find the right way to reform this thing and they will and those are the group that will restart the cycle that will repeat again and will be right back here, John, in about 30 more years.

That is what is going to happen because that is what has happened the last 10 times and it's going to happen again. And so ladies and gentlemen, I mean, I, we've primarily done this.

I think I feel trying to help people leave in the message, but I do know we seem to have a lot of people listening from, from that background, please, please, this, if you, this, there's never a better time to try and kill this ideology than right now while we're in a bus cycle, you know, put the knife, you know, you got a silver knife.

I've got a cross, right? Put the cross through Dracula's heart right here. This is the time to do it, okay? And don't let this thing go into another cycle for goodness' sake. Examine this thing and clean out all of the bath water, right?

And don't keep half the bath water with the baby, okay? And the thing is there's probably a lot of stuff you think is baby that is actually bath water, okay? Look at this then carefully, carefully, carefully, that you don't set up another cycle of this ideology to do this.

all over again. You know, whenever I began researching and trying to piece together how we got into this mess today from the mess that I was familiar with, it was really difficult because I would look at the different movements, some of which I knew had a lineage back to William Brannum, and I would examine its theology, its ideology, and my first thought when examining them is, well, they're pretty crazy, but they're nothing like what we came from.

So therefore I just, I really, in the beginning, just discounted the whole thing. I said, maybe some nut jobs just hijacked whatever power or money or sex or whatever they could get out of this movement and then went astray.

But it wasn't until I studied, there were two things that I studied that really helped me tie it all back to Brannumism, and that is, the first thing is what we're talking about today, the manifested sons of God.

The second thing, which I won't go deep into, the kingdom theology. If you understand the progression of how kingdom theology developed from what Brannum had and what was before Brannum into what happened during the charismatic movement all the way up to the NAR, the kingdom movement is how you are describing the domain for the manifested sons of God.

These two, in parallel, unlocked a door in the key to finding all of this history. So once I began to understand that, I started going through the different movements and you can see all of the different flavors of the manifested sons of God, how they begin to emerge.

Some of them, like I said, are purely racist because at its core, that's what it was developed primarily as by the Christian identity leaders. But remember, there were levels of layers below this, before Christian identity even was a thing.

You had, like you said, Jane Leade talking about the manifested sons of God way back in, I don't know what that is, 1,500 or 1,600s. It happened later, 1,700s, I think, when it was published.

If you trace all the way back to her version of what is kingdom theology, it's totally different, but they emerge and they evolve in kind of the same way. But like you said, there are these boom and bust cycles.

What will happen is it will build up until it is a platform that enables destructive leaders. It will build up until the group becomes so destructive that either a bunch of people die or they end up having all of these doomsday prophecies that failed with many, failed years of what they predict as the end of the world.

Or people will just suddenly realize, wait a minute, this theology that we're teaching doesn't match these specific passages from the Bible. Therefore it must be extra biblical or anti-biblical. And then they'll bust, but they'll keep the same foundation and build up again.

So it comes, it goes, it comes and goes. And if you understand that, at an understand how the movement has continued to evolve. You can trace its lineage all the way back and that's kind of what I did.

I've seen comments where people say, you're tracing everything back to Brannemism, not everything is Brannemism. It isn't so much of that as I'm tracing the manifested sons of God and the kingdom theology. When you understand that and unlock that history, it's amazing what it opens up because you find all of these movements that are inter-connected, inter-related, yet evolve into very, very destructive groups.

You know, if you take, say you take what they believe at Bethel about this today, right? Bethel believes manifested sons of God. If you take their version of manifested sons of God and then you go back and you read Jane Leeds version of manifested sons of God, you're gonna say, oh, this is, no, this is not the same thing, right?

But you can't do it that way. You've gotta look at all the intervening versions. I tried to do that in volume one of my book, John, to try and just walk through the how the versions evolved.

The Bethel got, you know, that version, they didn't get it directly from Jane Leeds. They got it from the A millennial branch of the latter reign, who got it from the early branch of the latter reign, right?

Who got it from the Pentecostal British Israelites? Who got it from Jane Leeds? Okay, it's went through those iterations and in each version, it gets modified a little bit. It does. And when you watch the evolution of it, right?

It makes sense when you actually look at it step-to-step, to step-to-step. And the elements though that remain consistent is before the second literal bodily coming of Christ, people are gonna be glorified on earth and enact a great last day revival and go out and do all kinds of great powerful things and eventually take over the world.

Okay? That is in Jane Leeds stuff from the very beginning, okay? Yeah, there are other details that change. As each iteration goes, there are elements that change. It eventually changes A millennial. You know, Jane Leeds version was pre-millennial, John.

If you go look at it, actually, Jane Leeds version was pre-millennial, right? The A millennial shift happened in the early latter reign movement. So there's an evolution of this ideology over time. And, you know, like I said, John, I could, I know this backwards and forwards, right?

Like, no, so I mean, I could talk to anybody about this in detail, you know, down to the fine nitty-gritty details of this stuff to try and explain it all, but I'm just trying to say these things in a kind of a broad way that I hope the average listener can just kind of pick up what I'm talking about.

But yes, John, I mean, this thing's been going on, going on forever, right? You go back, one of the bus cycle was Joe Anna Southcott. Remember, she believed that she was going to bring man child in and the manifested son of God, the start it all was going to come through her.

But it turns out it was a tumor in her stomach and she died.

You had a bus cycle because it turned out to you was just a dirt bag to see even everybody, right? And then it cycles again, right? Like you can go through every iteration of this ideology, John. And it just, it repeats itself. It repeats itself. It repeats itself. You know, one problem that I might point out, John, that I see in this ideology is that, you know, there seems to be, when you look at all these people, the last day revival is so critical to all this, right? There's a reason they're chasing it. They're not chasing a last day revival

because they want to see this lost saved and, hey, we would like to see souls. That's wonderful. You know, it's have a revival to save, you know, see people find Jesus. That's great. But they're after the last day revival because they need it for the end of day scenario and because they're chasing this power, right? That is what they're after a lot of them with, with their last day revival. And they're very keen to make it happen. Really, pretty well, it all costs, right? And you see within a lot of these people, John, and you'll find a lot of them

say this more or less that the new birth is messy. And so we should expect messy things to happen, you know, when we're converting people. They'll say revivals are messy and we should expect that there's going to be a certain amount of casualties in any revival, right? Like they have that mentality built in that whenever we go out and do this thing and have this revival, it's only natural that there's going to be x percentage of casualties and bad things happen. It's just the natural byproduct of God's revivals to produce this natural, you know, this ugly side of things.

And you'll hear them say this and they will vocalize that. There'll be people who say that very plainly. And as they go out and they have these revivals and they're trying to do this thing, they're doing it with the conscious awareness that yes, we are fully expecting this to produce at least some percentage of damaged people, damaged stuff, problems, right? They go into it with that expectation that they're going to cause harm. And it does, John, it does. And what ends up happening is that that percentage that causes problems is a whole lot bigger than a lot of them

ever want to admit. And in a lot of these groups, I think what's sad to say, some of them, I think the majority of what they do is actually harm rather than help. And, you know, I think, you know, like a doctor, you want a doctor goes out to help people. What do they say? Do no harm, right?

Don't make it, don't make it worse, right? And it's very hard for me to believe. I mean, when Jesus held his revivals, John, where their casualties, I mean, I don't think so. Right? Did the Apostle Paul, when he held his revivals, were their casualties? I mean, there the boy who fell out of the window and broke his neck because Paul preached too long, but Paul went and healed him, right?

So, I mean, I don't see in the Bible casualties coming out of revivals, John, or out of, you know, spreading the gospel, right? And so it's very hard for me, you know, to even want to touch that stuff.

And I think it's really eye-opening if you step back and realize that a lot of them say, yes, we fully expect a percentage of what we do to cause casualties. And we're willing to accept that risk for you because we need this last day revival.

That's a very common thing, you know, although I'm vocalizing it in a way they don't quite. It's there in the things that they say and do. You know, Charles, I'm a big fan of cartoons, I've mentioned that a few times.

What I see and manifests its sons of God, one of the reasons it fascinates me is because it is a religious version of pinky in the brain. I don't know if the audience is not familiar with this show, there's a, there are two lab rats that basically one of them wants to take over the world every single day.

And he says, what are we going to do today, brain, try to take over the world? And what happens is they attempt it and it turns into such chaos and mess that it turns into a funny cartoon.

Well, if you think about manifested sons of God, it's the same way with every boom cycle. They're trying to get to the point where they are literally believing that they're the manifestation of the son of God in the people or in the leader or some variation in between.

And the kingdom, with the kingdom theology, this is now our domain where the gods of the kingdom, we must try to take it over. And bad things happen. There is not a scenario that I can think of whenever you combine those two things where a bad thing is not going to happen.

So whenever I look at churches like Bethel or I hop or any of them that, that build their framework on those two elements, this weird variation of kingdom theology and the manifested sons of God, you're going to end up to be destructive.

Are they destructive now? That could be debated. But they will end up there if they're not already. Because that is what happens whenever you combine those two things. Bad things happen. And all the way back to its root, when you examine it all the way to its root, you have to ignore large portions of Scripture to believe this thing.

So while they're preaching and they claim they're preaching from the Bible, what they're doing is they're preaching between the lines. William Brannum would often say that you have to read a book, you have to read between the lines.

And he gave this example, I don't know if you remember, he said, if my wife sends me a letter, she's writing the letter while I know what she's saying in between those lines. That's how you have to read the Bible.

And I didn't even think of it when I was in the call. But now that I'm out of it, I'm thinking, that is so horrific, man, because you can inject whatever you want between those lines.

And so for me... It's fascinating. I can't stop digging because it's an adult version of pinky in the brain and every group that uses it, it's fascinating to see where they end up because they always end up in destruction. It really is something, John. I hope that a lot of the people who are in this ideology are able to escape it and not just reform it, but actually to eliminate these problems that that are the root causes of this stuff, right? And the root cause of this is not as Derek Prince would say demons. It's not the flesh. It's not all of these, you know, Derek Prince had all kinds

of ways to blame the problems on everything except the ideology. The problem is the ideology. That's the problem. The problem is the ideology makes people go crazy, okay? It's not demons. It's not people's flesh. It is a brainwashing system on these people that make them go crazy, right? And you actually need to step back and examine the ideology. And, you know, this is these manifested sons of God is in the way that Jane Leed and these moves. He's not part of historic Christianity at all, right? The fivefold ministry teachings are not part of historic Christianity.

I mean, they're just not. Positive confession is not part of historic Christianity. I mean, those three things are not Bible-based beliefs. John, I mean, I am firmly evictioned on this side of things. And those three things, frankly, need to be eliminated. But until they're eliminated, anytime those three things recombine together, guess what's going to happen? A boom and a bus cycle of this ideology. It is inevitable. You can trace it through history. It's happened over and over and over again in big ways and in small ways. So, John, I don't know. There's so much more we could say about this. You know, one thing I might say is this is, I think the pre-millennial

version of this ideology is safer. I'll be honest. I think it's safer for the world around us. Maybe not necessarily safer for the people in it. I think the pre-millennial version of it tends more towards Doomsday, right? But the A-millennial version of it tends towards societal chaos, right? So, you know, what do you pick there? The lesser are two evils. I think that for society at large, the pre-millennial version is probably healthier. But the A-millennial version of it, I mean, you see, they're much more into trying converting the masses and there's not really any safeguard in place to keep it from really going crazy, right? You know, the pre-millennial version

actually does literally expect a send up to heaven in the rapture, right? And that's stuff to happen. You can't really fake a rapture, right? I mean, that's pretty hard to fake, you know what I mean?

But the the A millennial stuff, you could fake all of that. Oh, yeah, you could fake every bit of that. And I wouldn't put it past them to fake a lot of it, John.

I mean, they are faking a lot of it today, right? It's crazy. And maybe kind of coming back to my remarks about how they always expect a percentage of casualties to come out of this.

You know, when you think to John Wimber, for example, we've talked about him a lot. Derek prints the same way, you know. Um, they're always talking about how it's God, right? It's God. God told me this this morning.

God led me this way. God told me the gifts of the spirit are going to come in this way. John Wimber would do this quite a lot. How God told me to start this movement.

God told me to do this. God told me to do that. But look at what Vineyard produced, John. Look at the people that he got into bed with. Look at the child molesters and the homosexuals and the rapists and all of that stuff that John Wimber put on the platform with it and let preach.

And who did that to the people around them? Look at, I mean, look at all of that stuff. Look at how it empowered the new apostolic reformation. Look at all the people that were harmed, you know, like out in, there's like class action lawsuits right now against Vineyard for sexual molestation from their pastors.

Um, the main Vineyard church out in Anaheim left the denomination here very recently, right? I mean, there's problems. There's problems to this present day with this stuff. And when you reflect back on it and John Wimber says, God told me to do all of this stuff.

It's, it's so, that is so problematic, John. I mean, did God tell John Wimber to do this stuff that was going to lead to all of these problems? Boy, it's really, that makes God look bad, right?

If God really told John Wimber to do this stuff, boy, then it makes God a bad person, doesn't it, right? And that's part of the problem that these ideologies create. Because there are people who walk away and will say, okay, well, I believe God told John Wimber to do all this stuff.

I believe God told Derek Prince to beat me until the demon came out of me. And now I believe Derek Prince told my parents to beat me until the demon came out of me.

And they did. And they say, well, I don't want anything to do with that. I don't want anything to do with a God like that. And that ideology creates those kinds of casualties in mass.

There are all kinds of casualties. You know, I talked to a Wim. I talked to so many people that come out of this ideology, John. You know, in the message we would sing in the name of Jesus, in the name of Jesus, demons will have to flee.

Well, there's one woman I talked to who said, my parents would beat me to the rhythm of that song as they cast the demons out of me. They would beat her to the rhythm and sing demons will have to flee.

You know, and preachers inspired them to do this stuff. Right? And this creates casualties. And there's. people that are responsible for doing this and there are people and it's not a few people. It is a large number of people who have been irreparably damaged by this ideology, right?

And all the primary, even when you see in the comments back on some of the some of the prior videos we did, all you see is people trying to make excuses. Oh, Derek Prince wouldn't do that.

Oh, sure he did. People listening to his preaching or did that, right? The same with John Wimber. People listening to John Wimber went off and made the crazy not. I mean, there is responsibility for this stuff, right? And making excuses for them don't help.

You know, trying to nibble around the edges and try to find some way to recover it all. At a certain point, you've got to step back and you've got to say, no, they were lying to us when they said God told them to do all this. No, he didn't. No, he didn't. Yeah, they were making all that up and all that stuff. They're saying, you know, how many Derek Prince I think said three or four demons possessed him at different points in his life, John? Derek Prince, I mean, if why would you want a preacher who's possessed by demons to preach to you? You know,

it's kind of like William Branham saying he was possessed by the demon squirrel. Like, why would you want to listen to a preacher who actually admits to having demons in it, right? I mean, I sure wouldn't want a preacher like that. You know, the harm caused by this stuff.

And a lot of the times that is just to deflect from their own responsibility in this. Yes, it was an evil spirit that made me do that. And now it's gone. Praise the Lord. Let's get back on track. Listen to me again. No, no, there's no, there's no get out of jail free for all of this stuff, John. And you know, for me, primarily the reason I wrote chapter 10 in my book, primarily the reason I did these past five episodes with you, John, is to try and help the people in the message, just understand that are leaving. There are other branches of this ideology that

are just as harmful, that are just as dangerous and that that do a lot of the same stuff, have a lot of the same beliefs. And just be aware, not to, if you want to get away from that stuff, that's not the place to go. You know, go find yourself a nice, normal, healthy, more evangelical church probably, you know, than that sort of, you know, crazy stuff where they're still, you know, piling on all of the nonsense from the places that we came from. And that's really what has motivated me talking about this. I don't really know, John, frankly, I haven't done this in such a way

that I think would even be helpful to people from these movements. I hope maybe that they can be helped by the things we've talked about, but that really hasn't been my target or the way that I've approached it in such a way to hopefully help them. But more so too, you just bring awareness to our friends, to our family, to our loved ones, to the people we know that are coming from our background to be where there's also danger over here in these other branches of the latter rain movement. And maybe that's not a good place to go either after having left the message.

No, it's not a good place. And, you know, like I said, I pieced all this together looking at just those doothiologies where it gets really difficult to explain whenever someone buddies on the outside looking in, is that it isn't just those two that are destructive.

Those two are the framework that enabled me to understand where all this came from. But with each variation that happens, with each different version of manifested sons of God, it's a different foundation than the Bible, so it produces different doctrine.

And the doctrines all differ, all vary. That's why when you look at Bethel, you're not going to see, it looks nothing like the message that we came from. When you look at Bethel, it's totally evolved into something new.

But it's using that same framework, that same foundation. And I worry sometimes, is I look at the groups that have developed from this, thinking through how destructive our cult was. What doctrines are they producing that are becoming commonplace?

What doctrines have made, even mainstream Christianity, believe it or not, are influenced by some of these things. So as mainstream Christianity evolves, and you have these destructive groups that aren't yet considered to be destructive, what theologies are they introducing that is going to make the whole thing a mess.

So whenever I see the mess that's created and where it came from, it just really worries me. I'm glad I got my family out of it. But I wish more people would stand up and say, no, we do not want this.

It already has a track record of producing destructive cults. Take it out. No more manifested sons of God, no more Joel's army, rip out everything that was built on that foundation. I think that's a very good way to put it, John.

There's just so much wrong and so much harm. It is, again, the reason that I want to stay away from, it is inevitable that this ideology is going to produce more cults. It's inevitable.

It is at this point a 250 year track record of this ideology. It will produce more cults, right? It is right now. You look at what's happening with these people from, I watched a video here of a lady from IHOP here, not very long ago, John, oh my goodness, I kind of up until now, I have thought they were maybe not quite a, you know, just how cult they had become.

Wonderful bone clout ladies and gentlemen, run for your lives, run for your lives, you know, after seeing some of that stuff, you know, and the thing is that is always that cultic element has been there in the nucleus of that from day one.

It has. And you're just now seeing it, right? The inner core has always been crazy cultic in these movements, right? But the outer layers are more normal, right, kind of like a pyramid. You know, Stephen Hasen has that really nice pyramid diagram.

You got the leader at the top. You got the most loyal cult like group around him. You got the next layer out is the next layer of the cult. But the further you get away from the center, the less culty the people are.

And what you see, John, is a lot of... of the people in that third and fourth layer tear out, they're escaping the movement, right? But the people from those interteers, they're the ones having the trouble getting away because they're the ones who've been most brainwashed by the ideology.

The same thing is true in the message, it is so sad. And at the end of the day, even though there are, there are indeed differences between the beliefs of the message and the belief of the new apostolic reformation, the elements that hold and trap the people are still common elements.

Positive confession is still what brainwashes the people in both movements. The positive thinking beliefs of this movement blind the people to danger. They blind the people to critical thinking and they trap them in a feedback loop where they cannot realize something here is very wrong.

The positive confession teachings do that. And the things built on those teachings. The fiefold ministry structures is an authoritarian leadership model that is controlling them. And the manifested sons of God ideology has then chasing something they're never gonna get.

It's never gonna come to fruition because it's not real. And B, it's gonna continue to produce more and more radical behavior. And what happens in these movements, John? I think we've mentioned before a book called When Prophecy Fales, which is really a fantastic study of ideologies like this.

What happens is, is the prophecies fail over time. And each time the prophecies fail, some people wake up and leave, but the people who remain get more radical. Isn't it ironic, John, that the chiefs won the Super Bowl the same year, Michael got out it with all of this?

What a great irony that is, right? Because the chiefs win in the Super Bowl was supposed to be the sign of the last day revival. Instead, it's the sign of the downfall of IHOP, right?

What irony? What irony? Their prophecy failed, obviously, right? But did the people actually wake up when their prophecy failed? No, a lot of them did not. Now, some of them did. Some of them wake up and leave, but the ones who stay stay and what happens?

They get more radical. And every cycle this happens, they will get more radical. And as that cycle continues, right? What happens at the end of the day is, you can end up in really crazy, dangerous places, right?

And it don't take, it don't take many more cycles, I think, for people as crazy as they are, to go off the deep end. I mean, I would think a lot of people say they're already off the deep end after listening to that poor, crazy lady and the stuff that she said about it all.

But I mean, they're off the deep end, John. And it's scary. And I have, John, I have so much sympathy for the people in these movements and in the message. Someone listening might think that we're being judgmental of the deliverance movement and all of that and the people in it, but not really.

Not in the sense, I think, that we're certainly being judgmental of the ideology. But John, I mean, we've heard of these people. Where do you think we come from ladies and gentlemen? I was a preacher in this thing.

I was the associate pastor of the second oldest messaged church in the world. John, your grandfather was the pastor, brand of tabernacle. We lived. Even if we lived to be old people, we'll have lived most of our lives in this ideology.

We are guilty of all this ideology has to offer ourselves. Right, Jesus said, you better be merciful if you want to obtain mercy. I am very merciful because I need a lot of mercy out of this thing.

And I'm very entirely understanding. I understand how this ideology grips you and holds you and traps you and blinds you. So you don't even realize what you're doing. And I'm also, no, intimately the pain that comes with waking up and realizing, oh my goodness, what have we done?

Oh my goodness, what have we, it is a painful wake up call when that sort of thing happens. And I have great sympathy for the people in these movements. And I have great sympathy for the pain than the difficulty.

It takes to escape these movements and to, and to re-examine your ideology and even to find your way back to a solid foundation with Christ on the other side of these things. And I just have a tremendous sympathy for these people, John.

And I wish I wish I had a million hours in a day that I could help everybody. But, you know, I tend to try and focus my efforts on helping the people leaving the message because those are the people that I know the most.

And those are the people that I am certainly the most qualified to help with. I sometimes get people reach out to me, John, asking for help coming out of these movements. I do my best to, you know, to be kind and offer advice.

But at the end of the day, I would encourage you to find a preacher who hadn't spent his entire life in a cult. To help you, you know what I mean? There are good preachers out there who haven't been in a cult for their entire lives that can probably help you a whole lot better than, you know, than someone like me.

But at any rate, I've shared with you the best that I know through these things, John. And maybe what we can do in our next episode or two. Maybe we can go back through the comments through the second series that we've done.

We finished. This is the last episode in our second series of revival history looking at the post-Brandom years. We can maybe look through some of the questions people ask. Maybe we can do a couple of questions and answers episodes.

To wrap everything up. So feel free, ladies and gentlemen, put your questions in the comment feeds. We'll go back through, pick out some good ones and we'll try and do a few question and answers episodes.

But thanks everyone for listening. Well, thanks for doing it. This has been a very wild ride to say the least. I look back on some of the things that we've gone through. And you have unlocked more areas for me to research.

So you've given me more work. Thank you for that, Charles. But much more to continue with in the future. And there will be hopefully some good fruit that has come from what we have done.

So if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at will. for more about the history of William Brannum and the healing revivals.

Read Come Out of Her My People. And for more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR. Both available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

Thank you very much.