Apostasy Across Continents: Branhamism, Latter Rain, and Africa’s Revival

Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at William-Branham.org and with me I have my co-host and friend, Steve Montgomery, author of the converging apostasy and a quick outline of hands-on eschatology a matter of timing and agency. Steve, you took me on a wild ride last time. I have as I mentioned last time I had always wanted to go deeper into the traces of this you call it apostasy. I just call it a mess of history into Russia and the Persians and

you took me on a wild ride that I had not yet time to do. I've never showed it to you but I've got this list of gosh it's probably a thousand different names and topics that people have emailed me or they've said in the comment feeds and I've caught it where they say can you please research this or research the other thing. I was telling another guy earlier today I have become somewhat of a gatekeeper of rabbit trails. It's turning into a mess but there's not enough time to study the things that I want to do because I have now this task list to do

which is still fun but there's a lot of things that I want to get into. I have also not got into the topic today so we're going into Africa a bit. I have went into Africa as far as my history goes with branamism or with John G. Lake but some of the topics you're going in today I'm going to be much like the listeners. I'm going to be sitting back and just taking it all in rather than dishing it all out. Yeah that's cool John. Whatever I find I'm glad to bring that up too because constantly finding these stuff. Speaking of something is

very very current and you know try to try to keep some of my beliefs as my beliefs and I've pushed them to others but since you were doing a historical research podcast I think that the revision his history that's occurring at this very moment in regards to the sun in these in and in their relation to the things they report about slavery which are quite factual and Harriet Tubman's basically like a song book that she's using Christian tunes with I think it's completely disgusting and I'll leave it at that.

people find out what they want to find out about it. But in the battle for all things work, I think truth has to be the friend of the people, not the enemy of the people. So if you run against truth and truth tells you this is American history, pretty much have to suck it up and take it as it lives.

I find it really interesting that many of the religious leaders who have a direct conduit to the upper echelons in Washington, many of them come from backgrounds that I'm tracing that have proven to conceal their histories. So you have people who I have a track record of concealing history now influencing Washington and Washington starts doing the same thing.

This is a big problem for me. Yeah, and a big word of cup comes in my mind immediately with flashing lights as hip that's all I can think of. Well, I know that you have mentioned a big interest in science fiction movies and the way that they'll show, you know, the bad guys and the good guys and how it really pans out in kind of an educational fashion. While it just happened to be watching a little bit of a movie called Prometheus, which you said you had watched also. And I found it interesting that really I'd say the main character, Elizabeth Shaw, she's confronted with all this disaster

and so forth, which no need to go into it. And she's asked this question, you still believe after all of this, she doesn't answer verbally, but she answers by putting on her necklace that has a cross on it. So I think that there was a kind of a poignant and telling moment in the movie.

Okay, the title that I was working from for this podcast, I think of it as Deliverus from Evil. Okay, well, that's, you know, Lord's Prayer, Nars links to Africa, which you talk about Russia, you know, and the Arabian world, well, I never had really thought about Russia too much.

I'm sorry, Africa, except in the fact that C. Peter Wagner and his many Nard of OTs and students, they referred to the third world countries as just blossoming with legit, second century Christianity, like going back to the roots. And that's not exactly the truth.

So when I say Deliverus from Evil, I'm thinking Deliverus from their evil. And also it's kind of a play on Deliverus because I know that deliverance ministries are still quite a problem and a confusion with Christians, especially charismatic and pedocosal, but pretty much anybody. So the Nars extremely Eager to claim that church growth in Africa, and in third world countries is the freedom of their labor, and also an indication of their billion soul harvest that's already begun due to their efforts.

So that might be something to keep in the back of your mind as we go through this. So as always, I'm just kind of looking through the internet and talking to different folks. And I found a doctoral dissertation from 1999, the fellow has received his doctorate based on this investigation.

And the title of it is Akin Witchcraft in the concept of exorcism in picture to Pentecost. Now this is written by Dr. Opoku Onina. And so what he was talking about when he says exorcism,

he's really talking about what we would say to the living ministries, I think as he used that word also. So the first comment is first question, who are they Akin? I've never really heard of them, but it's a large influential ethnic group in Guyana on the West Coast of Africa.

They have a language which is called Tweet, T-W-I. They believe in Andyan Kapan, which is the all powerful, but he's all powerful, but he leaves the world in the hands of the lesser gods, which are referred to as ablom.

I kind of traditional religion sees ancestors as the go-betweens between the living and the spirit world. And they really value prophecy and divination and see the potential for demonic possession even with Christians. So they also, they also as actresses on which the story is used for, which is deliverance, this turns out to be a blend of Akin beliefs and Pentecostal Christian beliefs.

And so this fits with their belief system because they also believe in spiritual warfare with an emphasis on healing. And I almost thought of this as kind of like one of those breaking news comments you hear in the media sometimes.

The thing that Dr. Opuku said was a charismatic demonology in the US has elements of traditional African beliefs. So John, how do you think this is impossible if it's true? You know, it's unbelievable how many different connections in the spider web of apostasy that we're covering come back to the center of this laterane movement and it's precursor.

of mentioning Peter Wagner and my mind went back to all of the research. I actually did it for my latest book, the Christian identity to the NAR. Wagner had this book that was very, very racist called, what was our kind of people, the ethical dimensions of church growth in America.

I think it is. And it's basically describing how we need to separate ourselves from them, but we must not, we must let their ethnic heritage evolve in the way that it evolves, while we evolve differently. If you read it, it's really weird what he's trying to say. And I read it from, I spent a lot of time in the Southern United States around a bunch of people who were racist. And so I know racist when I hear it. And I'm reading this thinking, that is a very highly polished way to say the same exact racist things that I heard growing

up in some of the circles that I was in. But that was widely popular. And when I look at people like John G. Lake, who went to Africa, and then he's one of God's generals. He's one of these people that's well respected in this movement. Well, he went to different parts of Africa, but basically established what would become the apostolic faith missions. And that became a wide sweeping movement through Africa. If you go back just a little bit in time before this, Lake and FF Bosworth, who mentored William Brannum, were in a weird cult in Zion city that was dedicated to

Charles Fox Parham, who was trying to replace John Alexander Dowey. And they had a, they were performing what the newspapers openly declared his exorcisms. It was the precursor to what would evolve into deliverance ministries. And they were killing people. They were literally killing people with their deliverance. And Lake, Lake goes to Africa, I believe, because there was some fear that they would be convicted over these crimes. They were, they were real crimes.

Bosworth goes into hiding literally into the revival ministry. There's Parham escapes because he's in jail for the molestation of the young boy, not just the young boy, but apparently there was a long trail of young children that he had inappropriately acted with and touched. So you had, you had all of this weird mass. Well, Bosworth goes on to mentor Brannum, Brannum and Gordon Lindsay, Lindsay, who also whose family was in that Charles Fox Parham cult. They start training people into the deliverance ministry, essentially what Parham had established. And it became widespread.

In today's world, you look at deliverance and it's, people think that this is biblical, what they're doing in the way that they're doing it, which I question that severely. But they don't know the history of it, and what's interesting is, if you talk to any one of them and say you're doing exorcism because the movement was so strongly anti-Catholic, and the Catholics apparently owned the exorcisms to these people, they would say, no, we don't do exorcisms, we do deliverance.

And it's the same thing, they don't know it's the same thing, but they separate the two in their minds. So it is evolved into this weird mess that I have a hard time even describing it to people.

Yeah, you know, when you mentioned Balsworth, I said, if I can get this quote correct, but I believe that he said something along this nature to you, Brandon, he said, go with what you had there.

Like, you know, like, whatever you believe now, this is correct, and he got us revealing the end time, you know, choose to use, so go with it. That turned out to be a pretty bad advice.

It's basically the same advice that Alistair Crowley had, do as thou wilt. So yeah, it's very apt that you bring out the connection with the latter rain because the Akin and the Akin society and the latter rain definitely rubbed elbows.

So a latter rain team actually visited the Church of Pentecost, which in this thesis, the writers refer in terms of the C.O.P. for short. So the Church of Pentecost in Guyana, this is where the latter and team visited in 1953, which is, as you know, later any still kind of in full swing and spreading their tentacles.

So the latter rain, this is like a go figure because we already know what they did over here. The latter rain encouraged a break with the other Pentecostals that happened to exist in Guyana and the area.

So the C.O.P. continued their connections with the latter rain, inviting them to minister again and again and vice versa. That's an area I'd like to research further because I'm not really sure when and where the the Guananese came over here elsewhere to minister what they were receiving from the latter rain.

Now here's a big name, which I know you know of. T.L. Osborne made many visits to the Guananese and he sent a large quantity on his his tab of healing in his rings, which he told the C.O.P. to translate into into their language of tweet.

Now also significantly as if the books of the latter rain prophet Franklin Hall were also circulating in the C.O.P. in Guyana. And I do know that the message called following William Brannum has a strong presence in Guyana.

We would often have missionaries that would come into the headquarters during the gatherings and the events. So I'll get to mission. to visit all of these ministers, it had a much different flavor to it though than what we had in the United States.

And I never really knew what to make of this. Whenever I would see those people, I'm understanding now what I was feeling was they were very mysteriously spiritual in ways that didn't really match what I considered to be Christianity.

But yet they still all kind of subscribe to the religious following of William Brannum. So they would say he's our prophet and we would call them one and the same. But the way that their religion had evolved was much different than the way that ours did.

Yeah. Very good. And that's a seamless connection to the next portion that I have down here that I looked into. And so happens that Thomas wait from the lettering, he in 1948, this is like an easy prediction but considering where he had his foot in the waters, he said it would be a great revival in 1948 and what did he do?

He happened to have helped William Brannum in the beginning of his tour of the West Coast. So that really fits what you're talking about there. And then according to Dr. Opoku in 1949, what invited what he says, this is quote, the most notable leader of the lettering revival, which he thinks was George Houghton to speak at his wings of a given temple, it just says a quick reminder, Houghton, who I corresponded with before his death in the mid, yeah, but I think it was 1986, 87 somewhere there.

And Houghton even promoted the writings of Jacob Bowen, who of course is just a real out and out occultist esotericist, whatever you want to call him. Then in the early 1950s, what became associated with right wing politics, and I've had my notes question mark because I bet you could find out more about that John, I would like to know more about what is that really referring to, Opoku doesn't really give any detail.

So what then visited the church of Pentecost in Ghana in 1953, the C.O.P. were greatly influenced by his beliefs and practices of the lettering, because they emphasized healing, deliverance, and made directive prophecies. So for them and for anybody else related to the lettering in the NAR, a directive prophecy is used to name who are the apostles and prophets, you know, through the laying on of hands, and then get them direction on what to do next, where to go, who to minister to, etc. And so these interactions with the lettering were possible for the COP's great growth,

which probably CP to Wagon was watching intently. So the global membership at this current time, or at least down around year 2000, years was about 4,200,000. So kind of a go for your kind of questions, but as with the NAR, do these numbers really equal truth?

Almost every group that I have examined, whenever they publish their numbers, they're never true. Yeah, it's simply put, they're never true. Yeah, and so, so where I get really fascinated about this, this blend of Acon traditions and the Church of Pentecost and Ghana, that came when Dr. O'Poco talks about the Lateran's visit to Ghana, and he says that at court we've revived profitism, they were still lurking within the psyche of the aching Christians.

So in other words, they were kind of like primed and ready to go to receive the Lateran message, which may speak to what you were saying, John, as finding the fucks from Africa similar, but not quite exactly, something else is going on.

So the Lateran services, special meetings were conducted for healing and exorcism deliverance. They continued Acon so-called Abisa, which is called for them spiritual consultation with divine aids such as blessed water, blessed handkerchiefs, herbs and blessed pictures.

And some also what I think what you just called verbal hocus pocus based on their traditional beliefs. Amazingly, Dr. O'Poco reports that the Lateran leaders appropriated some of these methods for themselves. That one again would have to be panned out a little bit further, but I found that interesting in that he, oh, what I forgot to mention, he had well over 100 primary sources for his investigation for his dissertation.

And he had, let me see, 1,200 personal interviews as part of that investigation. And of course, he was living in a guy on at the time. So, yeah, that's a big one. Likewise, to make the gospel African was led by, as you know, John Alexander's Dowery's church and the Zionist healers in South Africa were similar divine aids.

I find that pretty interesting because in the Bible in Open Diet 1, 21, it says, Saviours shall come up on Mount Zion to judge. Well, Gene Lead had a lot to say about that. The Savior is, you know, being like manifest sons of God, and so on. And it brings up a little question, though. Do Dowry and the COP have the same take on the Scripture about Zion?

That's a good question. I've looked at Dowry's version of what he considered to be Zion, and the only way that I can frame it is, it looks like he, his view on Zion was how do I make Zion to make money? There isn't, there isn't a spiritual thing. And if you look at the thousand year leasons or whatever they had, it was literally a means to make money and to control the people. And where it was established, I don't, I truly don't believe that he thought Chicago, Illinois was going to be the home of, of, of these Zion city.

It just didn't make sense to me. But there are people who believe it. Maybe, maybe he did, maybe he didn't. And it deeply ties to the British Israelism, which, when you consider Africa, that gets really interesting because which parts of Africa do you consider to be grafted into the British Israelism? If any, you might say that some of the English planted colonies might be, you know, grafted in, and then those developed. So how do you, how do you frame that under British Israelism? I don't know that Dowry would have been connected to this very much. Yeah. And so as you're speaking about that, now every time we start

talking, I'm going to be thinking science fiction, because I can't remember which one of the matrixes this was in. But when the people go, they have this great celebration, they go to Zion, is what they called it. And I don't know if that was one, two, three for the matrix.

Matrix reloaded. Okay. Yeah, you got a true fan knows those chapter in verse. That's very good. Okay. So, yeah, this thing about exorcism is deliverance. So exorcism, aka, deliverance developed in the context of a can abyssa, which is, I said, is pretty much divination, contacting your ancestors and receiving messages from them as, as if they're spirit guides. Abyssa also included, interestingly, speaking in tongues and healing. And then as the title of this dissertation leads to the Abyssa were thought to be able to hunt out witches through the revelations that they received and through their spiritual consultants. And so, yeah, that's all which around

every corner. During their prayer services, people would, this is also familiar, sob, roamed, salt, and fall to the ground and roll around under the power of the spirit, was it might say. So, I found something way which you can correct me if I'm incorrect.

on this one, but I thought this was sounding something like Brainham's twisted version of piety in which most of the things made by I say like fashion designers are said to have been engineered by demons, therefore buying and wearing them would attract demons to you and your household. Also as with Brainhamism, this created an undeniable fear of witches and demons.

Dr. Apoku compares this mindset to the healing and deliverance ministries by ministers such as Edward Irving, John Alexander Dowry, and as you mentioned, Mama DeGro Charles Parham. So I did a little quick AI cheating session here and I asked AI about some of this about like say Edward Irving and it said it is highly likely that Edward Irving was wearing a lead 60 propositions. What else might be highly likely?

That's just it. It's really difficult to pinpoint the areas of connectivity between the different groups, but there's a lot of cross-pollination going. I won't say which cult leader, but I've got stacks and stacks of research right now on my desk from a specific cult leader that includes his notes, his drawings, his study material, where he got all of his divine revelations, all of this stuff. I'm going through, I'm meticulously cataloging it and what I'm finding is that this person subscribed to all kinds of things, whether he believed it or not, because what he was doing

was he was gathering subject matter for discussion, sometimes pro, sometimes con, in his sermons, or his lectures, whatever. And so in doing that, some of the people he's reading from were obviously cult leaders, so he's getting information from other cult leaders and then disseminating that information, disseminating that information to his cult, and some of the things clearly came as quote-unquote divine revelation to those guys. Now that's just one person in the example, but I had an interview guest just yesterday talking on the podcast, and he was asking about the Toronto blessing, this big event, how are the people connected, how does that relate to Brannemism?

And I said you have to understand, whenever these events happen, it isn't that you just look at the host and the speakers, you have to look not only there, but once news began to spread of this, well you had other people coming who may not have even announced themselves, somebody may have said in the audience who is of great fame, who didn't even announce themselves, and then they may have spoken to the speakers afterwards, say hey that was a great speech or great sermon, whatever it is, did you know, and then and dump his information on it.

So you have all this cross-pollination going. It's really hard to connect the dots, but it's interesting when you see the similarities between all of the groups. And, as you mentioned, Jane Leade, it's also interesting to me that so many paths of our research all seem to go back to Jane Leade.

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The currents, the streams, whatever, of the actual mud that came in through Jane Leade, are just so absolutely non-Christian. You know, there's elements of penicostless and charismatic. You say, okay, we believe a little bit definitely about this and this, but we're all Christians.

Jane Leade has been identified by some scholars as a Christian mystic. But when you look at it as, I don't know, that may be a Christian with your feet on the ground, at least a little bit more hopefully, she doesn't really come across as what you'd think is legitimately Christian.

And her sources of information, or like I said, just in the deep end of the pool of esoteric thought, okay, so this is an introduction to the later in trained prophets of the Church of Penicost.

So I'm thinking, okay, what were they like? What are some examples? So as with the latter reign, the C.O.P. leadership said that if the positions of prophets and prophetesses were not recognized, they would break away from the other penicostles and become independent.

Yeah, that sounds like straight out of the mouth. There's a brand of them and George Houghton and the whole lot of them. And the C.O.P. Apostle, who's an example of one of, so called Apostle, J.K.E.N. and began to sell his pictures.

Why? Because I find this a little bit humorous, but I'll say it also, as with the tooth fairy. right? If you place these pensions under your pillow, you would receive divine revelations. So it's like a contact point, which yeah, in a club world, you know, you have a little, a little doll and you poke it with needles. And that supposedly has, you know, some kind of impact on the real world. So like some in the NAR, another prophet named John Mensa said that he could travel in the spirit world to anywhere he wanted to. So he could perform an exorcism.

So he could stay in his house and, you know, drink coconut milk or whatever he's doing and and travel off to wherever. Now, I know that especially I've heard that from several locations in NAR.

But I think it's very prominent with the teachings of the Navasiste, Gwen Shaw. She was reliant to that. And I think she had an influence on some of the folks in the ministry at Bethel Church in the same kind of thinking. So according to Dr. Apokou's informants, which yeah, he had those, he said the prophetess sister offers, and it looks like sounds offers her healing and deliverance ministries were very much like those of T.L. Osborne.

So yeah, it had an impact on on this prophetess. Then there's another prophetess who became very popular was the the word that Apokou wrote about it. She became popular and her name was Man-Didi.

And she supposedly raised a lady from the dead and also did spiritual consultations for a fee. So as a result, she became very rich, bought a car, fell in love with her driver and divorced her husband, accusing him of a lack of spiritual purity. So no need to point fingers and get too specific towards the NAR land. But what's really interesting to me, having grown up in the brand of there was this idea of spiritual perfection that you had to achieve in order to get to the other side. In other words, what Jesus did on the cross wasn't good enough, you also have to do this

other thing and then you can be saved. That was the religion, that was the core of the faith. That was basically the salvation plan was save yourself. And then when you found out that the leadership, they were so problematic, the things that the leadership were doing, not all, but many of them were doing. And you find out that not only were they not perfect, they're so far more filthy than what you can ever even imagine or think of. I look at some of the histories in IHOP KC and the dates. If you just chronologically look at the dates,

when did this first happen? And when did the movement start growing into its prophetic movement and all of this, all the prophetic histories being written and laid down. Once you line that timeline up, you're like, oh my gosh, man, this, this wasn't a spiritual leader at all. How does this make any sense?

So, for me, I just, I, I go back to this and I think they're the idea of the core got, what they would consider the gospel in the movement. The core was so faulty that leadership, they didn't matter what they did because they were elevating themselves into a spiritual plane higher than the people, didn't matter what they did because if they did, they fall while another leader who's in the same category will lift him back up and say, you are, you are now restored. You are now without forgiveness, without apology, anything like this, you're now restored to the ministry and people widely accepted.

Yeah. Yeah. And just kind of kind of jumping off on that point. There's a scripture that I was thinking about in relation to that. It says iron, sharpened iron. And of course, the way that a lot of people interpret that is that by hanging out with other Christians and supporting one another, you pretty much sharpen yourself as a Christian and grow. So I call this next section rusty iron sharpened corroded nails. And what I mean is about a bad company corrupts good character.

So I would include in that the visits of Moore Cerello in 1977 in Archbishop Benson, Adelhozo in 1978, who both had a big impact on the C.O.P. and Ghana. Interestingly, and maybe you've already heard this one, John, Adelhozo was commissioned in the ministry in 1971 by our friend Gordon Lindsay. And so Adelhozo, this is another one of those wild claims, he climbed to a raid, raised eight people from the dead and this deeply impressed the the C.O.P. and Ghana. Also with the books and cassettes of Ghana, again, Ghana, Copeland, and Benny Hinn. And the word that the word that the writer uses

here, he says this enhanced the preaching of the C.O.P. ministers. They had a strong belief in territorial spirits, which of course was promoted by the Narkeen himself, C. Peter Ragnar, in his concept of strategic level spiritual warfare. Another influencer on the Pentecostal Church that was being influenced in Ghana, was the Norfiliated Gwen Shaw's ideas about dislodging evil spirits in different geographic areas. And Cindy Jacobs idea is about militant intercession. So both of those could be dealt into quite a bit, and I think I've seen other people on various podcasts on your channel that don't do go into those

things. And then here's another interesting one. Dr. Apoku also states that the influence of Pat Robertson to the four gospel businessmen's fellowship is without doubt those are his words. And the four gospel businessmen if you understand all of the different spider webs that they're connected to, it's really unbelievable. And I don't know if I've told you this or not, but did you know that what you probably obviously knew that the founder of the four gospel businessmen, Dima Shakerian was the nephew of the Kardashian patriarch. Did you know that there was a co-founder who was a brandemite who lived like 15 minutes from my house? So yeah, so it's really interesting

if you if you understand that. And Charles and I were going through that history for our revival history series. And at one point we kind of sat down and went through the leadership in in the four gospel business businessmen's organization. Almost every milestone that we could look at in history, there was a brandemite who was in control at that organization. And anyway, it's crazy interesting. But when you understand the theatrical nature of what the four gospel businessmen was achieving and that it was to be operated as a business, hence the name four gospel businessmen, they would definitely want to integrate a lot of these weird exorcism type

spiritualism, I guess is the best word I was looking for. They would very obviously want to introduce spiritualism into the movement because spiritualism sells tickets to the conventions. Yeah, and I can't remember when I started hearing people say kind of a play on words, I'm sure it wasn't when I was in the church, I was in the word of faith church, but Shakerian's first name began to sound more like demons. Shakerian's people play on that. I don't know how that works out, but yeah, and it sounds like what the four gospel businessmen thing is a

really great, not great for you and me or other Christians, but great for deception is the kind of actor that is a predecessor to the seven mountains mandate because they're right there in business and trying to influence it as much as possible. And so yeah, you mentioned Derek Prince earlier, so the next section I have here is Derek Prince, the latter reign and beyond. So Prince himself visited Ghana in 1987. So, Dr.

Apuku tells us that the ideas of prints, along with Von Bastion, John Wimber, and Jack Deere, grow found fertile ground in Ghana, it appealed to their aching ideas about healing, deliverance, and witchcraft. So I'm not going to make any play in words here, but the next thing has more on prints.

So prints said that angels are the spirits of a preademic race, not mentioned in the Bible. That probably should raise a few red flags, John, because I don't know you about the preademic race.

He also said that he was a student of the philosopher Plato, and he says, in fact, I wrote my dissertation on some of his views. I didn't know that prints had a doctor, but apparently he did, and was based on platonic knowledge.

Depends on what you do with that knowledge, but a lot of people have done that's a wonderful place. So like those who delve into Kabbalah, print says the word heaven is plural, not heaven, but heavens. So we have a plurality of God and a plurality in heaven.

That's interesting, and yes, that does sound like Kabbalah to me, and a lot of other esoteric teachings. Prints asserts that one can be a Christian baptized in the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues, yet still have demons in their life.

Is it any wonder that the Achan spirituality of the COP related well with their prints? I think we've talked about it before, but the idea of the multiple heavens, Brannum would describe it as dimensions, and he, I think he may have used the word heavens, but usually it was dimensions, and he would say that there are seven of them.

And what's funny is, I was talking to a Hindu guy, I don't know if I've told you this story, but I was explaining what I was researching at the time, and he says, oh, well, that's Hinduism.

I said, really? And he pulls up, I can't remember what it was on the internet, but he pulls up and shows me the religion, the meaning of the seven dimensions, all of this stuff, and I'm scratching my head thinking, wait a minute, I thought I came out of a religion that at least claimed to be Christian, not Hindu, and the interesting part of that conversation was he was still a Hindu, but in his faith you can have multiple religions and multiple gods, and so he was a Hindu Christian, which was really, really odd to me, and he started preaching to me in conversation, obviously,

and what was odd is he knew his Bible backwards and forwards, and was actually pretty good at preaching it. And I was like, man, how does all that work? How does the one true God work with your other gods? And I don't...

Thank you was able to answer that question. But if you look at some of these ministries like you're describing and many of the different things that they're bringing in from other pagan sources and clearly they're pagan sources, you have to wonder, do they not believe much like the Hindu guy?

They're bringing in other religions, other, Branum said that the zodiac was the original Bible. Well, if you understand where that came from, you have to wonder, well, which God are you serving? Well, many of the men who were connected to this, they knew that he was saying those things because it was widespread through the movement.

And so you have to ask the question, well, which God is the whole movement serving and do, are they like the Hindu guy? Do they have some other God and Jesus? What are they doing?

Yeah, and this is kind of culminated recently with other people I've seen on the internet and things that I've read a long time ago. But the idea about the seven heavens, yeah, that's been around forever because it's pretty much based on the antiquated idea that there are seven spheres in our solar system.

And so they would base each one of these spheres, each one of these planets would have a spiritual force connected with them and you can tap into that force and so on and align the forces, whatever you want to do.

So it's very interesting to me that not only player profit, I don't think we've talked about her too much, but she had the cult, it was called the Church of Universal and Triumphant, which is totally esoteric and based on Alice Bailey's teachings pretty much on the esotericist, Alice Bailey.

Also, Alice Bailey herself talked about this, she called them, what was her word? Almost like paths, you can get aligned with any one of these seven schools of thought or paths of spiritual power.

And very interestingly, General Michael Flynn, almost made a direct quote from Claire Profit and Alice Bailey in one of his big Christian Patriot nationalist conventions that he was at. And of course, the red flags went up all over the place and people heard us say, where in the world did you pick that up?

And why are you presenting it? So anyway, or then the seven mountains, there's another one. So yeah, no need to find sevens all over the place and make connections when they don't exist, but it is true that sometimes it do exist.

And of course, Kabbalah has that idea too. So methodology and technical matters in the COP, similar to the AIDS that Brandon used for his so-called words of knowledge. A actual form was used and filled out by people visiting the COP in their prayer camp.

were heathens were supposedly made. So these little forms that they filled out would include complaints about riches which were always constant in the society, family spiritual background and strange phenomena and peculiar dreams. So this was given to something we briefly touched upon. But again, you know, we didn't have like more than one podcast on it. But these testimonies on the forms words are called prepare clients for deliverance. This is very similar to what was said and this is the writer's words don't mind. This is very similar to what has been written about Ericsson in a book called evocation and indirect suggestion in the communication patterns of

Milton age Ericsson. That's 1988. Somebody wants to look it up. Why is that significant? Ericsson's techniques are the basis for neuro linguistic programming which a lot of people call NLP for short. These techniques are described as quote indirect suggestion in hypnotherapy technique which can be used as you might think for either therapy and assistance and somebody working out to difficulties or as some of the profits that we know about can be used for manipulation.

And so Dr. Opoku says the indirect use of psychology is strong in healing and deliverance ministries. He's correct. In their so-called confessions they talk freely about personal experience which allows the spiritual consultant to quote extract information from them. Dr.

Opoku says some practices related to exorcism in the COP such as begin and times repetitive prayer fasting and these sorts of confession actually make exorcisms comparable to magical formula.

Dr. Opoku wisely points out in my view that since there is no need for training to begin a prayer camp where healings and deliverance occur where charlatans who have strong personalities can easily claim spiritual encounters with the aim of getting money as seen in the prosperity and word of faith churches. And of course I would extend that to in the Suffolk Grand Dysment whatever you want to call it at the Nar churches. So my final question about this is how do Dr. Opoku see insights fit in the context of the NARS claims that true church growth and purity has to

be found primarily in third world countries. And that is a good question. And you hit the nail in the head with the comment about the charlatism that he has emerged in the movement. It's really difficult to tell whenever a person is being serious or if they have a mental health condition or if they really saw an angel because if you look at these guys and you sum up the entire summation of what is their doctrine, you find that it's not biblical and yet the angel was supposed to give it to them.

So if you believe it as an angel, then the next step is you have to say, well, this was not an angel of God, but the person has issues. So then you ask the question, well, is it really an angel and is it an angel that is not from God or is this just simply a person who has a mental condition?

But then we have the charlatism and people who are claiming to see angels who haven't. That was widespread throughout Latter-Rain. I don't think it's so dominant in the NAR today, instead what they have, they've taken William Brannum's element of spoken word and they've used it like candy.

God has spoken to me and now I'm speaking to you and listen to me, listen to what I have to say because it's not my voice, it's coming from God, you have to listen to it.

So it's such a weird mess and to think that it's all connected to all of these things that you're finding it's unbelievable. Thank you for doing this. Yeah, no problem. I'll keep it up and I know you will too.

If you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at William-brannum.org. From more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR, available in Amazon, Kindle and Audible.

And for more about the converging apostasy, you can read the book Deconverging Apostasy and also a quick outline of hands-on eschatology, a matter of timing and agency.