Islam and the NAR: A Study in Religious Dominion | Bob Scott

Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at William-Branham.org and with me I have my co-host and friend Bob Scott, former co-founder of the Kansas City Fellowship and author of three books, the latest is some said they blundered, breaking my decades of silence on Mike Bickel, the Kansas City prophets, and the international house of prayer. Bob, right before this you pitched the idea for the podcast for today and interestingly this is something that I see as a theme coming up continually in our comment feeds but from the

opposite direction and today we're going to be talking a little bit about the similarities between the New Apostolic Reformation and some of the components of its history and Islamic extremism. I have had numerous people over the years. I started actually started doing this in 2012. One of my YouTube sites they took down but if you look at the old site if it still existed and you look at the new one you'll find people saying why are you attacking the Christians? Islam is out there. They're so far worse and I think people don't realize whenever number one I'm not attacking I'm showing that there's a lot of

fraudulent activities and a lot of mind control manipulation etc. within certain individuals who are key players in the NAR movement and its history but I don't think they realize the similarities between those people that we're exposing and what is actually brewing on the other side of the pond. So that's come to our front door that has come to our front door but if you look at both in my opinion there are two forces of evil brewing and growing that are equal but against each other and then the rest of the Christian world who are not

part of this thing. They're kind of caught in the middle between this so there's a lot to unpack there. I won't go too far with it but today we're going to talk about the similarities between the new apostolic Reformation and Islamic extremists. Yeah we need to and as we were discussing again this is my perspective. I wrote a book you know what's almost five years ago about how I believe that artificial intelligence was going to become in time and next sensual threat to everything that Christians believe about God and all that.

What I haven't really written about, but I've been pondering it, is the threat that Islam is as well. And what we're talking about are the two sons of Abraham, which is sort of interesting, because this all actually goes right back to Abraham.

But as we were discussing, it's interesting because first of all, there is a default setting and a historical default setting that's rooted in the human lust for status and stuff. And that dynamic is humans want to control other humans.

That's been the historical record. It's never not been that way. It started all the way back when we were tribal, and it's continued on to this day. How humans control other humans, either through technology or institutionalism.

And religion has historically been, and government have been the two primary institutions. So for probably what, 1500 years, the Catholic Church through its institutional hierarchy and its marriage to government, i.e. the Holy Roman Empire, it controlled mass swaths of a human population, using fear as its primary motivator.

Then we see this whole thing that's emerged in our lifetime with the whole concept of Christian nationalism or dominionism or whatever we want to talk about. And that's that same kind of thing again, right? Only this time, it's the evangelical community is going to take over, right?

Where it gets kind of bizarre for me was back in the 1980s. I had a very intense, I don't want to say argument, but a debate with Michael about all this, because in the 1980s, he was so convinced that this is important to understand this because this is how a lot of these guys think.

And I'm talking about the religious leaders. Mike was convinced that this billion soul revival that was coming, that was going to unlock dominionism, right? Where the Christians were going to take over the seven mountains and all this, and all this kind of stuff, work was going to be administrative by religious leaders.

In other words, the guys. that we're driving this message in the future, we're gonna be the guys over these seven realms, which just blew my mind, because I just said to him, I go, Mike, we've already had that.

It was called the Catholic Church. It was a disaster, right? Whenever religious leaders try to rule anything, it's a mess. It always has been. I can't think of anywhere where it's worked, right? And so anyways, but that's literally what's driving a lot of the guys that have this kind of worldview.

They're gonna take over, right? The third piece of this is what we want to talk about now is Islam. And the reason why this is important is because before 9-11, very few of us had any knowledge of Islam other than the fact it was a religion in a remote other part of the world in a culture that was so backwards that they were stuck in the medieval ages and they were of no significance other than the fact they kept pumping oil.

And we needed it for our cars. Nobody really anticipated them being a force, right? Because they were so backwards. Suddenly now there are a force. Well, how did that happen? And not only a force, a significant force.

Now for me, just backstory here, I'll give you a couple things and one was, I got a precursor to this in the 1990s that this was coming. And it just so happened that I was in the music business and I was touring Europe.

And I had probably the most significant evangelical pastor in Berlin asked to meet with me. And in the course of the conversation, he said to me, I'm on the city council of Berlin and we're struggling immensely.

And I said, Peter, what's going on? And he said, well, in your culture, you have the Hispanics as your kind of blue color labors. They're doing your crops, they're doing your hotels, they're, you know, they're doing your landscaping, they're doing all that kind of stuff.

In our culture, it's the Turks, but they're all Muslim. And where your Hispanics are coming in and by large integrating with American culture, that Islamic Turks are isolating themselves and refuse to integrate into our culture.

And I looked at him and I said, Peter, I don't think you understand what's coming. And he goes, what do you mean? He goes, Bob, we're failing. I go, you're gonna fail. And he goes, what do you mean?

I said, you're up against a religious worldview, a theology that's not about integrating with you. It's about conquering you. They have a dominion. in theology. They believe that there's a caliphate coming. There's going to be a great Islamic leader that's going to unify all the tribes together, all of Islam together, and they are going to rule the world. He was just stunned. Like this is one of the leading pastors who never had really studied Islam to understand that they have an agenda. They do, and a lot of people don't realize and recognize the problems with our current political system because of this.

So let's talk through this a bit. Islam is usually this word when you think Islam, you thinking 9-11, you're thinking the guys that fly airplanes into buildings, this kind of thing, suicide bombers, but much like the New Apostolic Reformation, it is a religious system that is hell bent on domination. They want to control the world. Where the NAR has apostles and prophets, Islamic extremism, they have religious moms and e-moms, but the similarities between them are uncanny.

They have unquestionable authority, and they basically become the sole interpreter of the divine will of Allah or whatever. Whereas in the NAR, it's the divine interpretation, the ramah, the spoken word of God. So you have leadership that are very controlling, very narcissistic, it's the very, I mean, it is an extremist cult whenever you look at Islamic extremism. But the key to understand is both in the NAR and in Islamic extremism, there is the idea that they want to create a global, not a regional, but a global theocracy. It's called a caliphate in their term.

And you look through history, look at all of the destructive cult leaders. John Alexander Dow is a good example. He created in America the theocratic party in America and tried to take over Washington. His ambition was to first conquer Washington. I have no doubt had he succeeded and had, you know, had he continued before he lost his mind, he would have had a global ambition because that's what a narcissist does. So when you get a cult leader, narcissist cult leader in power, they want global domination. That's, look at Napoleon, look at, you can look at any one of these

figures who has been risen, been given the power that was unquestioned. They rise to that level. So both have this, but the key to understand is in both sides Islamic extremism and the NAR, you combine all of this with an apocalyptic worldview and now it becomes militant.

The world is about to end. We must hurry. There is no stopping it. We must fight or die. That's what it comes down to. Yeah, it's interesting. I think, I mean, you know, I've, I've got connections in my dad's side of the family that go back to the Continental Congress.

My grandmother's, grandmother's uncle was Dr. Benjamin Rush. She signed the Declaration of Independent. So I've spent a lot of time kind of studying just that whole time period. And I've always been fascinated about how the liberal press and even the universities wanted downplay the influence of Christianity in shaping our early founding fathers worldview. Because if you go read all their private letters, it's just rampant through everything. You can see, it's like they look at the documents and because there's not a lot of religious terminology in there, they make this assumption that they weren't, but you read their private letters, especially Dr. Rush.

I mean, Dr. Rush was the founder of American medicine. There's a whole lot of stuff in there. But what's interesting is they seem to have an understanding that there is a brokenness in human nature where humans want to control other humans. Humans want to, they want to rule over others and then have an autocratic system where one guy basically tells everybody what to do.

So they try to set up a system that would prevent that. In other words, I think they were so keenly aware of how broken humanity was. They try to come up with a system that would have checks and balances, right? And make sure that doesn't happen. Well, you get outside of that world and you get into the religious world. What do we have? We have a pope, right? You have a man guy. We have these, you know, what do they call the guy in Iran, you know, the senior Supreme Leader, right?

And he dictates everything. You see these one man rule kind of environments, right? It's like one guy and he's guy could be nuts, right? The guy could be completely insane and yet the whole system, you know, is being controlled. So one of the things that I'm going to venture into here, which is going to probably surprise some people. But it will be good for you to understand what really was going on with 9-11 because one of the crazy things about where we are right now is the reason why Islam is infiltrating the West at such a high speed is because of us.

In other words, just in the same way that we've kind of shot ourselves in the foot by taking a backwards country like China, going over there, teaching them how to manufacture and then giving them the complete, can control of all of our supply chain, it's created a huge problem for us, a vulnerability.

Well, we did the same thing with Islam. And how did we do that? Oil. Americans wanted lots of gas and they wanted it cheap, right? So how does this all start? This will fascinate some of you because there's a history here that's intriguing.

So in the early, let me go back here. So we all know that George W. Bush was president. And we also know that his father, George H. Bush, was president. What few people know is that George W. Bush's grandfather and George H. Bush's father was Preston Bush.

And what Preston Bush is well known for was going to Saudi Arabia and discovering oil under the sand. And Preston Bush became very, very good friends with the king, well, the king who was, so the reason it's called Saudi Arabia, because it's the house of sawd, the sod tribe, controls all the other tribes in Saudi Arabia, right?

Because people don't understand that a lot of times don't understand that the Arabic world is still very tribal, just like Africa. They don't talk about it a lot. But they're all very aware of it.

That's where a lot of the conflict comes from. So the king, so Preston Bush brings his Texas oil mine over there and they start drilling and they pull the black gold out of the sand, right?

And this goes on and on and on to the point where all of these Islamic countries now are rolling in more money than you can even fathom, right? But what happened as they ended up getting more and more wealthy?

Well, to understand Islam, there's two main branches. And there's a third branch that's really under one of them. So when Muhammad died in Iran, 700, AD, Islam split. There was a fight between his nephew and an uncle.

And so it ended up splitting to where you have what's called the Shia and you have the Sunni, right? So the big Iraq war, Iraq, Iran war, was the Shia in Iran fighting the Sunni in Iraq.

Saddam, that whole mass, right? Anyway, so there's always been this conflict. Well, in the early 1900s, there was a Muslim prophet who came to Saudi Arabia and said, we've lost our way. We've compromised where we've become sinful and materialistic.

And therefore, or the air was what we would call Christianity a revival. That's called the Wahhabis, they're the Wahhabis, right? So the reason why Saudi Arabia is the most extreme when it comes to Sharia law, right?

Where they cut your hand off, they'll cut your head off, they'll stone women. All of that is because of this revival that happened in the early 1900s. So they see themselves as the preservers of pure Islam, right?

That's why you got them back all of that. They're considered the holy group. Well, what happened to that holy group? They got rich and what did they do with their wealth? They bought yachts, they started gambling in Monaco, right?

They were, they were into sex trafficking young women. They were into drugs. This thing, the royal families ended up falling into just rampant immorality. In Saudi Arabia, kind of off the grid is a guy named Osama Ben Laden,

who is watching this take place in the royal family and goes again, like what happened in the early 1900s with this Muslim prophet that's we've lost their way, decides he's the new prophet, he's Elijah, and he's going to bring correction to the wayward Saad family, right?

So he starts a conflict, but here's this problem. You know who he blames for their waywardness? The bushes. If you notice, before the, you know, the king, the original king has died, but whenever he came to America, you know where he always went first?

Midland, Texas. He wouldn't go to Washington, see, why did he go to Midland? That's where the bush empire is. That's where the bush family oil money is, right? That's the friendship. So Ben Laden's watching all this going, it's the bush family.

They're the ones that have corrupted us. They're the prophets of bail. America's the prophets of bail. They've corrupted my, my culture, my family. They've corrupted Islam. And so he decides that he's on a mission for God.

And he is going to restore the, you know, the royal family and Saudi Arabia back to its pure Islamic destiny. And so what 9-11 happens, what's sad is that the American press is so profoundly ignorant of Islam.

And the historical dynamics, they then try to communicate what's happening to all of us through a political lens and they're failing miserably because it doesn't really make sense, right? Here's where it gets bizarre. Why after 9-11 happens do we attack Saddam? Saddam didn't cause 9-11, right?

A lot of people have never connected the dots. Why? Well the reason was is that Saddam is another branch of Islam and Saddam is running around pretending he's got weapons of mass destruction. The Saudis have no military. They have no way to defend themselves but what do they have? They have us. Where are their protectors? Where are the the guys that have power? So the Saudis come to us and say hey we don't you know we don't want an attack from Saddam who's saying you got to take them out. So we actually do the Saudis bidding in order to

maintain the oil flowing, right, to maintain this relationship. So we become the policeman or the enforcer in the Middle East. That's how we get sucked into this whole thing, right? And we get pulled right into this thing. So as I said to people this is the absurdity of the whole thing that happened in the 2000s is that our government is so profoundly ignorant of Islam and the dynamics that are involved in it that they unbelievably, naively think that they're going to bring democracy to the Middle East, right? I mean if you even have a bit of

understanding of how Islam works and the you know the dynamics behind it and its religious worldview you would understand how profoundly stupid idea that is, right? But we're so convinced because we're America and it works here and we're going to export it around the world, not understanding that we literally inserted ourselves into a 1300 year old war, right? Like we're going to jump into this thing that's just been going on for 1300 years where these three sides are all in conflict with each other and we're going to solve it by implementing democracy. Well guess what? It's been an absolute disaster. It has and I want to

make a connection here that not many people make. Everybody misses this and I'm actually a little surprised that they all miss it. So you mentioned how they came to Texas, right? Because there's where they see the money in power right there in Texas and the Bush family. If you understand how Islam works and understand the significance of what you just said, now compare it to the prosperity gospel, right? In the prosperity gospel, God is giving you divine favor because he's giving you money.

That's what the message of the prosperity gospel is. Whenever these religious leaders flaunt their airplanes or their gold change or whatever it is, they say, God is blessing me and God can bless you too, my friend.

Well, if you understand the concept of how different that is from the actual gospel and then compare it to Islamic extremism, even in the movies, whenever there's some bad guy, Islamic leader, who's an Islamic extremism, they're flaunting the gold catalogs, the gold necklaces, the gold weapons.

I mean, they flaunt it to no end. And there's a reason why they do that because if they show money, wealth, power, sex, anything like that, very much like the prosperity gospel, they're displaying that God is giving them favor and therefore they're the ones empowered.

That's exactly right. So on both sides, it is exactly equal. Both of them are equal. And one of the, I hate why it's so dangerous that theology is so dangerous, right? Because here we have a group that wants to take us all out who has the same worldview, right?

Absolutely. And I hate to go here, but I have to because we're talking about Islamic extremism and something else that it ties back to what you said. In Islamic extremism, there is the concept that you, it's almost like forced donations.

There's mandatory alms giving it. They have a name for it. I can't remember what that name is, but basically it's like the tithe, the tithe system of the Pentecostal Charismatics. But outside of that, there's also this hidden blessing for those who are doing the, sometimes illicit funding.

You go into the all smuggling the, all kinds of problematic things that they're doing. Well, that money's going back into the religion and so the ones who you're doing it are saints. The ones who are in power are blessing them, knowing that the money was illicit money.

Compare that to some of the things that has been exposed in the NAR. It's not as openly blessed as Islam, but they're doing the same things. Because when you have something that is built on that type of architecture where power, money is displays of God's favor, it's not really the Christian God.

So you have two different things that are very, very similar in nature. The difference is one of them uses the word Jesus Christ in their speeches. And so everybody thinks, well, that's not as bad as Islam, but if you actually compare the architecture of the two, they are one and the same.

Well, and again, it's religion, right? Yeah. It's a religious worldview. I mean, the Catholic church had it as well. Right. You know, the thing that, you know, the thing I... struggle with. And again, I'm just thrown it out there because, you know, even at my age, I still have more questions than I have answers and I ponder a lot. But I cannot say my lifetime that I have seen many religious leaders that have the capacity to handle status and stuff.

It's weird. I see it in the business world and it's maybe because they're trained, but even there's a struggle there. But it's very interesting to me how often those two things end up

destroying the lives of religious leaders, you know. And then you go back to Jesus' teaching, where he seems to so often warn people about the trappings. And to a point where he's almost anti-materialism, he's anti-gathering status and stuff, where he says, if you've got two give one away, that's the antithesis of American prosperity thinking. Because if you have two, well, God wants you to have ten, right? So you go to get more, right? This is where I find myself in these head-on collisions often with not only sometimes are the American dream or the prosperity gospel with the message of Jesus in the Kingdom of God, because the Kingdom of God is all about laying

your life down for others. It's loving others, caring for others, sacrificing for others. And these two things seem to me, you know, to be in direct conflict with that. And so I struggle with it, right? You know, because I also understand that that part of the reason why we move forward is because we're driven by this need to achieve. And, you know, attainment. So even though sometimes our motives are impure, I mean, I think, I mean, this is just a sidebar here, but I think the greatest motivator for human development has been fear. Our survival instincts, the fear of death

has actually, in my view, been, you know, the greatest motivator for the advancement of technology. Right? We want to live longer. We want to protect ourselves, right? All this kind of crazy stuff out there. So, but yeah, getting back to this whole Islam thing, I think people are a little bit shocked right now, because this thing seems to have come out of nowhere, right?

You know, you're hearing these stories, you know, and maybe some of you have friends in Europe. extensively through Europe in the 90s and 2000s. And I have so many friends there. And they're in shock what's happening to their culture.

There has been this influx, right? It's like, you know, you get this group of people, they're oppressed, right? So we got to open the gates and let all these oppressed people in. Well, the oppressed people that they let in were all people that belong to a system who will never challenge that system because they have this fear of God and fear of their leaders, right?

So they're there not to integrate with anything in Europe, right? But to literally take over. And here's the crazy thing about it. Here's what people don't seem to grasp. As much as extremism and terrorism is what we see, right?

And we see this, what appears to be a war. That's actually the distraction. Because the strategy for Islam to take over the world is what? Reproduction, right? And you can drill down and you'll figure this out.

Islam is playing the long game. They're not in a hurry. Like we Americans, like we want it all now. They don't think like that. They know this. That European culture, Western white, the European culture, American, Europe are now reproducing at a level that's below keeping the population even stable.

We're shrinking. Elon Musk, a lot of people have warned about this, right? You need every woman needs to have whatever it is, 2.3 or 2.5 children. We're down to 1.7 I think it is, right?

So what do we do? Oh, we gotta let more people in, right? We gotta keep the factory, all this kind of stuff. Well, so great. Well, how many kids are the Islamic women having?

Six, seven, right? And then only that, where this gets even more dicey in Islam, you can still have concubines. You can have multiple wives, right? So we're back to the Old Testament again with guys like Abraham who are trying to grow his tribe and how do they grow their tribe so they can stand up against larger and more powerful tribes.

They have multiple wives and multiple concubines and Abraham's producing kids as fast as he can and he's hoping they're all boys because he needs them to fight, right? I mean, this is just raw human survival mode right now.

You know what I mean? And so people forget this is how the world, well, Islam hasn't changed. They think the... same exact way. So they are going to all populate us and they think within a hundred years we will be the minority and they will rule just by sheer population dominance. It is scary. I mean it's really scary. Let's talk about the equations. Have more kids. I think it's an open invitation.

If you start a war of population, right? You know, so the Brandham cult. The Brandham cult does not advertise the Brandham cult. There is no outreach programs. There's no obvious recruitment. In fact, I would say that it's quite the opposite. When they advertise, it's to advertise to keep people in, not to bring people in. If you drive down the interstate in areas where there's a heavy message, Brandham cult population, they have these signs like, how will you be judged?

And things that, if you're on the outside, you look at this and you go, oh, well, that's a cult. I'm not going in there. But to the people, they're really scared. Oh my gosh, we're going to be judged if we leave this place. There's no real advertisement to bring people in. It's too constrained.

Because they know, over time, as they repopulate, as their families grow, those children become cult members. As they have children, they, all of this, it's spreading literally through child birth. That's how it has remained stable. And if you look at, I mean, we've exposed countless things. Many people are aware of these things. If you look at how awful it is and understand that nobody should be in it in the first place, yet it still exists and survives. It survives because they're teaching the young children, the doctrines. The young children grew up like this. The same

thing is happening in Islamic extremism. And so let's break that down a bit. I have friends who are Islamic. I don't have any friends who are in Islamic extremism. I do have Islamic friends.

Yeah, I do as well. And they have explained to me whenever I, so I was redneck naive, I don't know what you want to call me when I left the cult. I kind of lumped them all Islamic people in the same bucket. Right. Much like I'm certain the Islamic people do Christians, which is fun, if you think about it. And I have a, I have a really, really good neighbor who's Islamic. He explained to me, we used to take walks every morning and he's explaining to me the difference between the core of Islam and the extremist views that, and he knew, I can't remember the names, but he listed

all of these different branches of extremism. And he says in the core, it isn't like this. They believe that Muhammad taught peace. And they, yes, if you read the Quran, there are things that are militant, but much like the Old Testament you have, John. Right. If you read your Old Testament, you're going to find many of the same things. When he first said that, I was like, no.

And then I go back and look. And I'm like, oh my gosh, and I started to understand it isn't so much about what you see as the very violent personalities. It's the extremist, you know, that are different from the core.

So once I began to understand that and then understand that within American Christianity, you have the same exact thing. You have a core base of Christianity who have core concepts, theology that has evolved for decades to become more humanistic.

And then you have these extremists that they want to defy the decades of theology. They want to say no, we want to be different. And they formed their extremist group and some of them are benign, but some of them go completely nuts.

So I began to understand that both sides are really, really equal. And it wasn't until I began my study of the New Apostolic Reformation, I began to realize the dangers of this because once those people break away and they want to defy the core, they want to say our version of Islam is more like Muhammad or our version of Christianity is more like Jesus.

Therefore we must dominate those who don't believe like we do. We need to claim dominion over them and enforce our policies. Once that hit me, I'm like, oh my gosh, we have Islam right here in America under a different name.

Even that, it took me, it took me a while to understand that no, it is still different. But what we have is the found, the very foundations for what became Islamic extremism, we're watching happen in real time today in the United States.

Well, as we're sort of what we're doing, we're playing Toto today, meaning that we're pulling the curtain back because on the surface, the facade, right, it seems we're talking about two things that aren't even remotely alike.

But then like you're saying, when you pull the curtain back and you see what's actually underneath, right, the motive, the theology, the worldview, all of this underneath, you go, oh my gosh, it's the same thing.

That's the shocker. And I think most people haven't had the opportunity to do that. I, you know, I look back at my life sometimes and I realize that I think God just does things like he, things I'm not even aware of at the time and how significant they were.

But around 2015, 2016, I actually went to work for a technology company in Lawrence, Kansas. I was the only white Christian. Everybody else was Muslim from either Pakistan or Iraq. And it was the most interesting thing.

Now based on my personality and my previous experiences in African all that, I was very adept at cross call. true old dynamics, right? I understood what was going on and over time they developed a great relationship with these guys and there was a trust level to where they were inviting me to their family activities and whatever. But like you, they took me behind the scenes of the Islamic world, right? And I got to see the other side of this. There's one concept I want to throw out real quickly here because I think it's really important and I don't even know sometimes if our political

figures understand this. But there, I learned it from these guys because I was in a situation where I would observe the owner of the company who was a convert to Muslim lie to white Americans in his business. And that really bothered me, right? And so I started poking around a little bit.

Well, I learned that there is a concept in Islam that I cannot pronounce very well, but it's called taqiyay. Taqiyay. I think that's how you say it. The theology is is that lying to a Muslim is a sin. Lying to an infidel is not a sin. The reason this is really important is because there are a lot of Muslims, even in America, that will lie to you face to face and believe that their religion gives them permission to do it because you're an infidel. You know, there's a, you know, if you've noticed, there's a lot coming about medical, what do you call Medicare, social

security fraud. A lot of this is coming out of these Muslim countries, right? There's a lot going on behind the scenes right now. It's not all out into the public, but the reason is is they feel like they have a right to do that, right? They don't look at it as see we look at it as that's wrong.

You broke the law. They don't look at it like that. They look at it as you're an idiot and and you know, we have the right to do this and you know, your technology is doesn't have, you know, the security protocols and we took advantage of it. We win. God's on our side. It's that whole thing again, right? If I succeed, God's with me. That's the proof. Lying is not an issue.

Chinese have the same problem, but that's not because they have a law that says it. They have a, they don't even, you know, they have a morality and an ethics that doesn't see it as wrong, right?

So there's all these things that these problems we have when we interact with these cultures, where you have to be very, very careful here of what you're hearing because and not do what Americans do and sort of assume, oh, he's being honest.

One of the early Christian apologists, and I want to say it was Irenaeus, but it might have been, I'm drawn a blank on the other guy's name. One of the early ones anyway was studying all of these Gnostic groups, and one of the groups he declared as heretical and said that they were following Gnosticism, believed that, and he used a different word too, I can't remember the word, but essentially the terminology is lies for the sake of a holy end. They believe it was okay to tell lies for the sake of a holy end. Somewhere in the millions of miles of ten point font that I have written

over the past ten years, I had a study comparing that group to some of the things that I saw within Brannemism and some of the branches of the offshoots. When Brannem would be home in his hometown, he would tell somewhat more truthful versions of the stories than when he went abroad, and I was trying to determine, is that A, because he thought, when he's out away from town, nobody's going to know, or B, was it because the groups of people were different, and the conclusion that I came to, which it's my opinion, there's no way to know what was in the guy's head, why he was lying,

but the conclusion I came to was that whenever he was trying to recruit people into the cult, it was okay to lie. Once they got in, he could tell them the truth. I started studying, I mean, that was, that opened the door to all kinds of research. You can go down rabbit trails, study almost any of the guys that were in the voice of healing lineup, and they're all claiming things that you know are not true. These guys are lying, but they're speaking to audiences that during this era, we've talked about it before, they were trying to push the fundamentalist agenda,

and they saw anybody who didn't believe Christian fundamentalism as much like you described how an Islamic person would see somebody who's not Islamic. These are heretical people, we're going to tame the beast so to speak, and it's okay to lie to them if I can get them to come join our cause.

I believe that that was the mindset of these people, matches very much what I saw in Islam. Well, you know, I think we did kind of address this on previous episodes, but it's been my observation like you. Again, primarily in the Pentecostal Charismatic Stream of Things, that this whole theology of the man of God model, where God anoints a man, right, and elevates him above everyone else.

He has prophetic insight that others don't, and so therefore we all default to the spiritual giant amongst us, right? Every time I have seen that dynamic come and play, I have watched that particular person lose their moral and ethical plumb line. It says, though what happens to them, is they start.

leaving their press clippings, start believing the adulation. They began to see themselves as on an elevated plane, right? There's all of you that stick to the rules and then there's me who makes the rules.

And so what I see this happen over and over again, because the mission, right? It's the same thing at IHOP, right? Again, I'm ADD in here, but if you ever read Tammy Woods, the letter Mike wrote to Tammy Woods about why she should not come forward, right?

With the whole statement that God told me that my wife's gonna die and you're gonna marry me, and Mike says in the email, because everybody then won't believe the prophetic history. And that's the most important thing.

I mean, if there isn't an insight into the thinking of these guys, right? That is classic to me. I have seen that thinking over and over again. In other words, we have to cover up my manipulation, cover up my lie, cover up all this, because if we don't, all these people out there aren't gonna believe this prophetic history that I also like about it, right?

But I'm just saying, you see the thinking? And again, as we said a week ago, the end justifies the means, right? It's not that there's a moral and ethical plumb line that we all follow.

It's my own end justifies the means. I'm leading this global revival that's gonna have a billion souls. I have to do this, this, and this, all because this is the most important thing, right?

So lying, manipulating, whatever I have to do to get there is all okay. It's all justified. And that's the deception. And I see it over and over again, what happens on the backside is intriguing, because I have had some guys sort of hit the ground so hard it was like a wake up call, like, oh my God, what happened to me?

You know what I mean? It's like, what happened? It's almost like a fog lifts, right? And they'll just go, what was I thinking? Like, how did I fall into this, right? And they're actually confused as how, you know, they bit the apple, like, you know what I mean?

How did that happen? Or other guys, they just relentlessly, even while, you know, they've been told to him and they just can't let go. It's almost like, if I let go of this, I have no reason to live.

It's like, they're psyche can't even acknowledge the fact that, you know, this is all fabricated because there are whole worlds going to come. bashing down around them and they can't survive without this and so one's kind of you know it's kind of wild and the other one's really pathetic in a way you know what I mean it's sad for me you know because I won't see all these guys restored but it's just like now it is sad and closely tied to that or I should say somewhat tied to that one of the one of the last

similarities between Islam and the NAR that I'll mention within the NAR and many of its apostolic networks leading up to the NAR whenever the people were being targeted for recruitment they would always target people who had a need for instance the divine healing lines these faith healing movements they were targeting the second needy whenever the cults began to emerge after this you find the people in poverty the people who needed help in a normal Christian church that is in the core not into the extreme same with Islam in the core of Islam as my friend was

telling me whenever the needy are being addressed you give to the needy as is declared by both Jesus Christ and Muhammad you give to the needy but you're giving in such a way that empowers them not that makes you empower over them in other words you you help them to help themselves and you you don't even if they don't stay in your religion you're you're fine that you help them because you're doing the good deed in the NAR and in Islamic extremism it's the opposite they will give you jobs money etc as long as you stay in the cult as long as you stay with them you can still

have this once you leave that's it you're cut off same with friendships all of your friendships are built around this core you have to be a part of the unit if you leave you're cut off and why is this it's because when you leave much like you described in the situation where Mike is telling her but what about the the prophetic history the moment somebody leaves the group everybody gets to question well why didn't they leave what's wrong with this group right it's the same thing it's that control of information that's causing this and you find that control of information both

in Islam and in the NAR well and the you know the it's sort of like the cared in the horse right I mean you know in in the iHop world the prophetic history is the carrot that's what's keeping everyone there right you have well and it was like that at Kansas City so there's two iterations of it for people that may just be tuning in you know there was an iteration called Kansas City Fellowship in the 1980s that morphed into the 90s and it became

Metro Christian Fellowship and then Michael laughed and then invented himself in the high-op world, but this prophetic history has always been the carrot. It's been in a weird way. It's also been the threat to your point.

Well, if you leave, you're not gonna participate in this incredible moment, right? It's like, you're walking away from your destiny. You're walking away from your calling. You're walking away from your prosperity. It's like this threat.

You're gonna be left behind, you know, like the movies left behind movies, right? It's like, you're gonna be left behind. You're not gonna get raptured with the rest of us because you left, right?

And so there's this underlying threat as well, right? It's like, you lose, loser. Yeah. You know what I mean? And so, you know, people, I don't find many people that don't leave these things that don't leave with their tail between their legs, right?

It's like, I mean, I hate to say this, there's very few people that are like warriors that leave. Most people are so beat up. And so whatever, that they leave, they know something's wrong.

They're hurting. They leave with their tail between their legs. And it takes a good 12 to 24 months or longer to almost decompress, right? To demystify, to rethink everything. And so it's a process.

And if you're listening and you're part of the IHOP world, you know, and you're still in the middle of struggling, you know what, you're absolutely normal. Anybody that's left to call it will tell you that sometimes it takes a whole decade, right?

For you to actually find yourself again, you know, especially, and this is especially true, if you came into it when you're 18, 19, 20 years old, right? Because your whole introduction to adulthood is being pre-formatted, right?

You are being programmed where to look, what to see, and how to interpret it. And you don't know anything else, right? And so it's not like you're older and you go, well, I'm gonna go back to something, right?

When you're, for all the IHOP kids, they're not going back to anything. They don't have a pre-form, right? So they're having to find the authentic, the new authentic on this journey sort of out in the desert, right?

Alone. And I think most of us that have been on this journey will tell you it can be a very lonely journey, but oh my gosh, where you're gonna end up, you're gonna find who you really are, who God really is, and he's no longer gonna be the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, he's gonna be your God.

And that's the real object of the exercise. Sometimes the disillusionment. You know, the detachment, you know, the depression, all of that stuff that feels like you're just a whoop puppy is actually really good.

That means you're actually on a healing journey and if you keep at it, you'll come out the other end way ahead, you know, like we have, you know, it's, but it's hard, you know.

And so you're fighting these forces, whether it's Islam, you know, the Dominionism on Islam, the Dominionism of Catholicism, the Dominionism of Evangelicalism, you know, that's why I have, you know, I don't know how you are, but I think now at this particular point in my life, I have a significant distrust of anything institutionalized anywhere where there's a system with a few people at the top controlling everyone else.

I just have it innate distrust because I just haven't seen it work well. Anytime there's a human and power, there's human problems with their power. Yes, right. We are the problem, not them, it's us, you know.

We also think it's the other guy who's like, no, it's us, we're the problem, right? And Jesus laid it out pretty clearly, it's like, yeah, that's because you have this nature that's very self-centered, your default setting isn't love for others, it's love for self.

You love yourself and that's what drives you and you have got to overcome that and the only way to overcome that is through the power of my spirit and being aware that's not my way, you know, it's not my way and what's crazy to me, I mean, again, I'm going to get myself in huge trouble here and we can close with this.

But you know, all of my Bible school training, all of my upbringing in Christianity, the most important thing was all about the transaction of moving people from the debit column to the asset column, meaning out of hell into heaven, right?

The most significant event in human history was the crucifixion of Jesus and His dying for our sins, right? And I'm not saying that's not, I'm just so you understand where I'm going with this.

It just intrigues me though, when I read the Gospels, there's very little dots about that. Everything Jesus is talking about is how we live. Everything is about how we relate to each other. Everything is about our motive and our love for others and our willingness to sacrifice and our ability to cross culture and do all these things.

There's hardly, he hardly ever talks about dying for the sins of others and getting people out of hell into heaven. And yet that's the major focus, right? That's why we spent all these missions and everything driving us to go to the pagans so we can get them out of hell and to heaven.

We can change their status, right? Instead of just loving them and part of the problem we have now as we have all this resentment and all these indigenous cultures because as missionaries we went in there and we imposed, you know, it was the imperialism, the dominionism, right?

We're going to take over and we wounded people and we hurt people and we discounted them and we demeaned them and they're hurting better about it and now it's coming back at us, right?

Because we didn't learn to love first. Absolutely. I was going to end on the same thing but from a different direction. When I read the Bible and you read what the Bible books and you read what Jesus is saying, take the woman at the well for instance.

Well everybody else wanted to condemn, to scorn. He wanted to lift up to empower and that's how it was. And I picture him in today's world seeing this big mess that we have and seeing the hatred against people of Islam.

Jesus would first want to disarm the Islam extremist. You can't do this, you can't be militant. And then to the others he would say, do you know who the God of Abraham is that you serve?

And he would not condemn and scorn. So it's a much different world. Like I said, I have good Islamic friends. I don't believe in the system that they're in. It is a system that they're in.

But they're of the core. They're not in the extremism and they have explained to me the differences. And when I look, when he started asking me the questions about Christianity, I really had to do a step back and self-examine because what he said was absolutely hurtful to the core.

And yet true to the core, we have the same exact thing in America. It's just a different name. So much to me, to me, if there's a doorway into the Islamic heart, to the Islamic person's heart, it's to understand that they actually revered Jesus.

That's something that most Western Christians don't understand. They do not believe he's the son of God, but they revered his teachings. And there is so much you can find oneness on. And that's an open door to have some deep conversations about life and spiritual worldviews and all that.

That's the door. Don't argue with them about the divinity of Jesus, but understand they rever his teachings. Absolutely. And I can tell anybody who's listening because of my conversations, that door works. Yes, it does, isn't it?

Yeah. This has been fun. Thanks for doing this. Well, hopefully we've been enlightening, educating, and in... firing.

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