Wolves in the Pulpit: Why Discernment Matters

Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Brannem Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Brannem Historical Research at William-Branem.org and with me I have my co-host and friend, Laura Lynn Tyler Thompson, the host of Laura Lynn Live. Laura it's good to be back and to talk about today hero worship. I've talked about this a little bit with Adam and a few of the others but one of the things that I've noticed as you go back through history there is this weird unusual thing that happens in the movement where

somebody becomes spiritual. They get a following, gather a following of people, the people begin to almost worship the person and then whatever they do, good or bad they're always viewed as the hero of the movement and this has continued as far back as I can go in history all the way back to the ancient times, the ancient religions. What's really interesting about it to me is there was a book that I read by Eusebius who was the he's known as the Father of Church history and he went back through all of the ancient pagan religions and he talked

about how an average person did a great thing for a community and the community respected him and over time the respect turned to veneration, to basically hero worship and eventually people turned into over over the centuries turned into gods. They were gods onto the people and in enough time people begin to sacrifice their children to these gods. Fast forward to today's religion we have people who don't even really do that good of a thing who turn into heroes because they say that they can do the good thing. Everybody begins to worship them and then no matter what they do how evil it is that they do people will

continue to give them undue respect and submit to their undue authority as they govern these people and it's unbelievable to watch it happen again and again and again you were talking we were chatting through text last week and you were talking about some situations that you'd gone through so I thought I would just open up the floor and let you talk about this hero worship and how it has impacted you. Absolutely thank you John wow I I'm just before or the Lord so much right now because we're under probably the most pressure that we've ever felt even leaving Daystar but having to be in a process of exposing a wolf amongst

us and he was my pastor, he was also, he's considered an apostle, his name is Art Lucia. I opened up the word today and if it's okay, it's funny how God taught us how to fight in the Old Testament and right through to how Paul the apostle also taught us but so this is in Ezekiel 28 and this I just asked the Lord you know to help me today and I opened up my Bible and I started reading and it says the word of the Lord came to me son of man say to the ruler of tire this is what the sovereign Lord says in the pride of your

heart you say I am a God I sit on the throne of a God in the heart of the seas but you are a mere mortal not a God though you think you are as wise as God are you wiser than Daniel is no secret hidden from you by your wisdom and understanding you have gained wealth for yourself and a masked gold and silver in your treasuries and that is always a big part of why this is happening it's about the money and you have a masked golden silver in your treasuries by your great skill in trading so because you're a good business person

you have increased your wealth and because of your wealth your heart has grown proud and so God then reveals to Ezekiel like what to say to them and God is taking them down and in this world where we've got all of these doctrines about being little gods remember that that was so popular a few years ago you are a little God I mean God is directly speaking you think you're a God wow and you are not and so these big personalities have actually found ways to capitalize to use the gospel for gain and they have no character and so to explain to your

audience who might not understand this I'd like to open your audience's eyes and we're really happy because Julie Royce did a big story on this apostle apostle art Lucia he's now being called apostle bear butt art and that's because he sent a selfie of his bear butt which is just crazy it's crazy apparently there's been a few of them but this guy just loves to send his butt around town but what he did was he sent it to a woman that he was grooming for a season of time this was amongst hundreds of selfies this week he apologized for this one selfie he didn't apologize for the

selfie that he took of himself in the shower steamy shower sending it to her he didn't apologize for the literal dirty memes and pictures of private parts and things and such and gross communication and disgusting, awful pictures that were sent that were seen by someone else besides this woman.

So this woman, because she admired this guy that had, he had charisma, he had a following, he would hold these big events across Canada called Battle for Canada. So in the t-shirt that was made for Battle for Canada, he's taken his bare butt picture, sending it to a married woman and in the process of grooming multiple calls a day.

So at first she thought, oh, you know, he's just this, you know, he's this leader and we're friends and she was really honored. And then the process that these people engage in whether it's Mike Bickle or Dr. Michael Brown or Robert Morris is just using their, you know, their clout as a minister, their unusual sort of charisma and personality and they woo these women in.

And so, oh my goodness. So I started, you know, when we left A-star, we moved to Kelona. I was in Kelona, British Columbia and we decided to start attending Art Lucia's church. He was the only real pastor I knew in the town.

And so we start going unbeknownst to me. We're treated very well there. I mean, I'm his friend. He's had me on Battle for Canada stages across Canada and front of thousands of people. I've been one of his noted speakers.

And so, you know, I have to say, my heart had reservations about art, but art is art. That's what you say, you know, art is art. He can be very rude and nasty. And I had seen that spiritually abusive, personally abusive to people.

And so I had taken him on about that a few years ago. But we go to Kelona, we start attending his church and what comes to me, John, is that there's a couple of young women.

They're Indigenous women. And we now know of at least five. But two of these women are going to take him to task and they share with me their stories of what he did. He, his alleged molestation.

And so this is all as categorized in the Julie Roy's report. You'll be able to see it. And so I engaged in a Matthew 18 process with him. First of all, I always went to him as soon as I would find out information.

And I said, first of all, there's all these people that are spiritually hurt and abused. They feel that they are. And this is what I'm getting from them. And these are the areas I think you could maybe go and apologize and maybe it begin to engage in a conversation with them so that what can happen is restoration in these light matters.

Then I found out about... the grooming of this lady, and I said, how could you send this bear butt picture? I went to him, and we had further meetings with, well, I met with his wife for three hours.

She said there was multiple butt pictures that were all over, and she downplayed it completely, like, oh, who cares about this butt picture? What she didn't really realize is that the only one that had this particular butt picture released in the Royce report was Jane Doe that they speak up.

And so his wife has been running this, like all the wives do, I don't know what it is. It's something in the water that they drink, I don't know, like why you support your husband and doing these things.

They, you know, the predatory behavior builds up over decades, and they still, they don't leave, they, they stay put, and so, you know, and, and maybe, maybe this is how they can find true happiness in the end, because nobody else wants these men after they've been shown to be such predators and alleged pedophiles.

So these two girls, one of them beginning at the age of 11, have their stories about being molested. And so when after I heard about this, then again, I went to the committee, and I met with the committee.

So as of today, so, you know, depending when you put this broadcast up, it should be, it should be out, John, we are releasing the recorded conversation of the private meeting. And the reason that I'm doing that is because in spite of everything that we've done to show this man as a predator, the wolf pack, those that support predators, those that come alongside of people who act without integrity, with sexual misconduct, and they, they prop them up, and they keep them in ministry, and they, they help them to stay in a position of power, thereby allowing the possibility of more victims.

And so we're just so done with it, and we're releasing that today. And so that's sort of the beginning of this story. It's unbelievable. And the fact that two grown adults are talking about butt pictures on a podcast is, it's, it's blowing my mind.

It's like a really bad comedy. Apostle. Apostle, Apostle bear butt art. So-called Apostles, it, you know, so I've gone through the history of this movement. And from its very inception, there were problems brewing.

I have not yet published this, so I'm, I'm actually, this is the first time I've actually talked about this research that I'm into. I wanted to know how the latter rain started and why, the latter rain movement, because all of these movements, all of these Apostles, they go back to latter rain, and they claim that this is part of their heritage.

And yet they create these concepts, such as God's Generals. The idea that these guys can rise to become great Apostles, do terrible things, terrible things. And yet we should give them undue reverence and respect as an Apostle, when they're, these weren't good people at all.

I'll never forget when I first started- encountering the research that existed for Charles Fox Parham, the father of Pentecostalism, and found out from a few people that had told me that he had been involved sexually with another young man.

My mind was blown. How could this movement have something like this? There's supposed to be God in this movement, and the deeper I dug into it and the more I recognize that it wasn't just that.

These weren't very good people. Parham was also involved in a scheme to swindle people out of money by turning ordinary rocks into gold. He literally was investing in this company that you had. And we're talking about silly things for two grown adults, but had this little dropper that he could drop one to a rock, and he would say, step right up, folks.

This will turn to this rock into gold from God. That's the kind of schemes this person was involved with. This is the father of the Pentecostal movement. So if you read the Bible and you understand that Jesus said by the fruit, you'll know them.

You can understand by the fruits that it bears something's wrong. If you look at this movement today, there is something wrong, definitely wrong. So I went back and I'm trying to determine what really ignited the latter-rain movement, because it wasn't just the Sharon Orphanage and a revival there.

If you understand how revival is working this movement, it isn't that suddenly this outpouring of God came and everybody's blessed, and there's this revival, that's what they claim after the event. There's usually something that sparks that event.

What they claim as a movement of God literally is numbers of people. If they can say we have pictures of a lot of people here, they'll say that was a move of God. Yet you look at the fruits that it bore, and you're like that couldn't have been a movement of God.

There's no way. I'm going back to the research. What actually drove me into this, I was digging into Smith Wigglesworth, who is this crazy figure who believed that he could heal people through the power of God by kicking them in the face or punching them in the gut, which isn't of God.

But that's what he was claiming, and Brannum claimed to be some sort of weird descendant from that heritage. As I'm doing this, I come across this prophecy that was given right before the latter-rain movement came to fruition.

If you line the timelines up, you had Wigglesworth dying right about the same time that Brannum starts to rise into fame, and there's a person named Harry Morse, who is basically spreading the news that Brannum is the new Smith Wigglesworth.

If you think about the timeline... If what happened, this is the only explanation for how Brannum got overnight fame. He's being touted by the Pentecostal movement. So I dig in, I want to find, okay, who is this guy?

Who is this guy that is spreading the news of Brannum and literally sparking the latter reign? And the very first newspaper article that I hit was a big scandal by this guy who was a elected official of the Pentecostal PCI, the Pentecostal Corporation.

And he was exposed for having inappropriately touched several women in his congregation. And the women actually wrote to the headquarters of the Pentecostal organization, said, this guy is doing this to us. He's molesting us, basically.

And the pastor admitted it, he said, yes, I was doing these things. And was never apologetic for his actions. His wife stood behind him just like you're talking about. The Pentecostal organization did not remove him.

He remained in his position for probably a decade or two decades after this. I'm still going through that history. I've got a piece all of that together. But this movement was actually started with sexual misconduct as was the Pentecostal, the original Pentecostal movement from the early 1900s.

So you see this repeating again and again and again. And the only reason it could repeat is because when these people present themselves in such a way where they're greater than human, they become like little gods before the people.

They have the power over you. They have the undue worship from the people. They have basically created this mentality where you can't question them. They're in power. Whatever they do is okay. It's not okay.

And at some point we need to stop and say, this is not okay. We need to walk away from this. Wow. Absolutely. Yes, we do. And it's not okay. And for some reason, the people that have jurisdiction, they don't want anybody rising up and saying, we don't want a pedophile in the pulpit.

And they protect the pedophile, the alleged pedophile. They protect this person to be in ministry. All of Canada goes silent. All of the United States for a season. You know, Mike Bickle got away with a lot for a while.

But it was the nameless, faceless people. The people that nobody knew that started saying, no, no, no, this cannot happen. And so they began rising up and bringing awareness to all of this. But I'm shocked to hear what you're saying about the past.

I mean, obviously Satan doesn't change his tricks. He attacks people. He tries to make them and turn them into sexual deviance. There's a lot of things that happen. Kids are assayed and assaulted when they're little.

And then, you know, a person has a choice, whether they will become oppressed. or whether they will become one who sets people free for predators. And there seems to be a lot of people that maybe there was something that happened to them and instead of turning into the person that becomes a champion for the voiceless and for the victims, they become a protector of predators that now maybe want to claim that they've been somehow revised into a new being in Jesus.

And nobody negates the power of the cross. But this is what has been said to me on this recording that I'm going to be putting out there today. They basically said, well, how powerful is the blood of Jesus?

How many rapists, how many pedophiles, how many murderers are there? And I'm not in the pulpit, brother, does this office not matter? And what I think is happening now is God is literally ripping apart this false church, these fake prophets, fake apostles, these pastors, leaders, teachers that have no courage, it is disgusting.

And now it looks like the whole church could fall. I have a guy that I'm interviewing tomorrow and we're going to be talking about the fall. The fall NBC is covering it of the assemblies of God.

It's the assemblies of God. Like this huge Christian organization, they're now thinking they might be going bankrupt because they have had predators that have been grooming young boys and they do it in packs.

So it's so violent, so evil that the assemblies of God in the U.S. And I can send you the articles, John, so that you can even show your viewers, but this is happening.

God is uprooting and taking down these systems and to see that so much evil started way back when. And I guess we've allowed it to continue, but I'm just saying that not on my watch and for the rest of my days and for John Collins days, we're going to speak the word of the Lord and we're going to expose the wicked works of darkness.

And I appreciate your ministry for doing that because these other men supposed men of God are doing absolutely nothing. I've just lost my credentials from the independent assemblies of God. I think no relation to the assemblies of God in the United States, but they've just taken away my credentials citing that it's I'm being unkind.

That I'm being uncharitable, that I'm not honoring other pastors and basically you're not allowed to speak against other pastors. If you are, you know, if you have your credentials through their organization. So I said to them, like, how are you all dealing with predators?

What are you going to do with somebody bad? Oh, you know, we have our way, but you can't speak out loud. And you're not speaking just in the church, Laurelind. I mean, you should go to the church.

I said the church is the internet. The church is the worldwide church of God. or I'm attacking people that are in the public square declaring their righteousness. These sins are known and have publicly also been spoken.

They are in a court of law fighting a civil suit for the allegations for a child's sexual assault and they are speaking every day about their innocence. And so why am I supposed to deal with it in the church, what church?

They're all over. The church is the internet now these days. This actually is the church. What you and I are doing here is we are speaking to the church, we are speaking to the remnant and we call for holiness, we call for righteousness, we call for speaking the truth with courage and the rest of them, they've lost the plot.

Absolutely. And it may not be a bad thing to be kicked out of the independent assemblies of God because if you go back through the history, the revival history series that Charles and I have done, this is the same organization that created Jim Jones who led the people to the Jonestown massacre.

The independent assemblies of God is an exact example of the fruit that I was talking about earlier. This group exists solely because the assemblies was growing into this large organization and Branemism, the Laterane Movement, this thing that I just talked about where this guy prophesied and Branem becomes overnight famous.

Well, what happened was it grew so rapidly and the people who were being appointed into apostles and prophets and this hierarchical structure of the fivefold ministry, they weren't really qualified to do what they were doing and some of them were outright scandalous, they were just horrific people.

And leaders in the assemblies of God, the primary organization, began to realize that you can't really appoint somebody into a position of leadership without first vetting them. And also, you can't really trust that these people who say that I laid my hands on your shoulders and prophesied over you, that gives them instant qualification to be a leader.

But yet that's what the movement was doing. So, I think it's 1949, the assemblies of God put out a council decision that they would not accept the movement to Laterane within their churches. And what happened was it caused a schism that split the assemblies of God in half.

The half that took the Branem side was the independent assemblies of God. They broke off from that branch. It was at that same exact time, if you go through the history of Jim Jones and how he came to be such a famous leader during the years he was a Pentecostal, it is because of this.

He joined that independent assemblies of God sect. I actually have his ordination. papers from Joseph Matson-Bose and I have letters between Matson-Bose and William Brannum basically setting Jim Jones on his trajectory. So being excommunicated from them to me is actually a good thing. This is not an organization that produces good fruit. But go back to the foundation of this. You have a foundation not just in the independent assemblies, but many, many groups that sprung off of this, that their very foundation enables a predator. It may not be that they promote it or they want it or even that they are in such a position where spiritually they think that

a person could do such a bad thing. They think they're pointing good people. But because of the very framework that has no guardrails, people who are predators strive to get in those positions. So in your body of church, whenever there's a predator there that suddenly sees, wait a minute, I can have ultimate power, I can have all of the sex I want because nobody's going to check me.

If I do get caught, all I have to do is say, I'm God's chosen and then the people will ignore it. What predator doesn't want this. And so what has happened time after time after time, predators are getting into that position. That's exactly right. And you know, I had a guest on recently that was talking about, so he was in the Delta Force Marines or something, JT.

But he went on to a TV show where he played a Navy SEAL, a top very trained, well-trained fighter. Now he's written a book about the spiritual warfare. And his thing is he goes into a little bit about the psychopathy of sociopaths. And the thing is, when you see them, at the time that you see something that is like, you know, it's an alert to you. When you see it, you don't think that.

You don't go, oh my gosh, you know, this is a sign that there are a sociopath. What you see is something that makes you go, that's really weird. That's really odd. Oh, that doesn't resonate with me. I would never do something like that. That's kind of crazy. But then you build in sort of these things where you kind of let this or that go. And before you know it, as you look back, you can see everything that shows that this person's a predator. This person is a sociopath.

They harmed children. They harmed animals. They were mean to people. They were bullies. You could never trust them at all. They were people that used their position to harm others. It should they be the type that would become a sociopath and a CEO.

or pastoral, ministerial position, you know. So all of these red flags that you once saw as tiny little things begin to come together. You know, for Art Lucia, one of the things we're very concerned about.

And of course, no one's diagnosed Art Lucia. I'll just say that right now as a sociopath, but this is a guy that he had a cat and a dog and he sent his dog into the garage and to kill the cat.

He let the cat in, he let the dog in and he thought it was funny. And you know, when you look at that, you go, oh, wow, that's like horrible. Like what are you doing?

But later on, you know, when you put it together with a whole bunch of other things, you begin to wonder, who is this man? Like how, I mean, is he really a Christian? I mean, he only became a Christian after his girlfriend was murdered.

They did, he was the prime suspect for five months. Then they found someone in the court documents that we've, you know, been able to find. The judge was never happy that this person that took the fall for the murder was not adequately represented by any legal representation.

And so these interesting things that go, you know, it's terrible that he had to endure that and he talked about it several times and all of that. But he went through a lot of trauma.

So this introduced him to Jesus, which was just such a great escape from his life of selling drugs and being a drug addict, basically. And so there's just all of these things that we've been able to find out and so there's just all of these things that lead up to where we are today, where we have somebody that's grooming a married woman three years ago leading a huge movement in Canada called the Battle for Canada, thousands of people showing up at his events.

And in 2022, while he's having these events, you know, he's basically at the tail end of this bad behavior sending selfies of his butt around. And he's on, you know, he's on the, I was there.

I was on the stage with him. And so the predators are not being held accountable and actually in this release of the recording that I'm about to release, one of the apostolic coverings that just wants to let him go and has completely exonerated him.

He says, you know, that, you know, basically, we don't have the mechanism by which to control, you know, people and pastors in the church, like there is no governing thing in all churches, of course, because it's all different denominations.

We're so divided. And so predators just have a field day and a heyday going in and out. any place that they want. And as you say, this begun many years ago, this began with predatory and gross behavior back in the day.

Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new Apostolic Reformation? You can learn this and more on William Brannum Historical Research's website, William-Brannum.org. On the book's page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon and others, with links to the paper, audio and digital versions of each book.

You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top. And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching. On behalf of William Brannum Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support. I've actually spoken with Pentecostal historians, and they just write it off, which, you know, ironically it's exactly what we're talking about here.

There's a hero, they're worshiping the hero, and they say, oh, it was just one time. But that's not good enough. If you're in a position of power, yes, I do believe that there, according to the Bible, there are people who do such things and can be forgiven, but there is no Bible precedent for leaving them in power to do it again. That's really the problem here. And I've spoken to Pentecostal historians for parham, for example. And I say, yeah, but it was just one time. If you go back through the newspapers, it wasn't just one time. Parham had a school where he was working with

children. He would gather all of the children into an auditorium, and he would tell the parents, they can't come for the week or duration, however long this was. And it wasn't just one child.

There was a number of children that were apparently attacked. Now, he did not get convicted. He got out of it somehow. I don't know how he wiggled out of this. But if you read through the testimonies, he admits to at least one of them. And he says, I can't apologize for what I may have done in my sleep. In other words, he's saying, I did this thing while I was sleeping, I was basically sleep sacking, I think, is what he was trying to say. But it was just that was just in one case that wasn't all of the other cases. And there is no record that I can go look up to see. I want to say

there was 10 to 15 different parents who came forward and said he did the same thing to my child. So this is in the history of the movement. And that history, so Parham goes out to, he goes out to California, right as the Azusa Street movement is starting to grow, and he basically tries to push his way back into it.

They had cast him outside just a little bit at the point of time, which Azusa Street revival happened. But then after this, he connects with John G. Lake. He connects with F. F. Bosworth, who mentored Brannum.

He connects with Gordon Lindsay, Gordon Lindsay, who became Christ for the nations. He was a brand new campaign manager. He was highly influential in this movement. And not a single person said, wait a minute, you do not need to be in a position of influence, you need to stay away from our kids.

And that's really the problem here. Whenever they are lifted into hero worship, they're never given that boundary that keeps them in check. Even if a person has done something and got his forgiveness, it doesn't mean that they don't have whatever was inside of them that caused them to do this.

They still have some sort of a psychological issue. And you need to keep these people in check. So whenever they are attacking children like this, never, never put them back into position. Now the person you're describing sending the pictures, I can't imagine a single parent in the church who wants to have their children have this phone number connected.

Why would you do this, right? He would not let your children be around this, but yet he's going to be lifted up into leadership. I just, the whole thing blows my mind. It really is shocking, John.

And I took it, you know, in the noggin recently for bringing out my grave concerns regarding Sean Voit. And you know, people are starting to apologize to me. I put out a couple of screenshots of how he's taken his son to a grave, you know, where he's literally, then he gets down, he lies on the grave.

This is called grave soaking. He's from Bethel, communicating with the dead or trying to get any kind of power from the dead. This is strictly forbidden in the word of God. And it's so ridiculous, it's such a terrible thing.

But amongst that and many other things with Sean Voit, you know, I was very alarmed because I've been fighting the LGBTQ agenda as far as what you teach children and how it's seeped into our schools in Canada and the United States.

And I have been one of the strongest, most outspoken that we have got to have the protection of children pivotal that we do not ascribe to this agenda. But Sean Voit took a picture of a young trans kid.

And obviously to me, it looked like a boy dressed in a girl outfit. And you know, and he's making this, he has this, you know, sign that says, you know, we want to help the trans kids in Palestine while I'm pretty sure they're hard on not alive anyways.

And so it's a ridiculous sign. But Sean Voit's acknowledgement on the top is basically, you know, let's open the mental institutions, ASAP, and we can all have our thoughts about how much mental health problems they have and all of that, but that was a very sarcastically toned, very brutal attack and assault and actually using one kid's photo, you know, these kids are very suicidal.

These kids are broken and they really need Jesus and they need to find something that might rescue them from the plot that they're in. And I don't think that not even a great worshiper like Sean Foyte is going to be bringing anyone to Jesus talking like that to all of these groups and then he uses it to gaslight them, get them to come to the meetings, and then, you know, the people that have been whistle blowing on him saying he's a prolific liar. This is their accusation.

They allege he is a prolific liar. I just talked to another podcaster who said he's very well known and he says, I'll come on your show if you want to talk about my time, season, working with Sean Foyte and what a liar that guy is. So these should not be our leaders, what is going on. Other people can worship lead. If you all want to have really more worship, why are we doing celebrity culture, you know, as you say, I mean, we're just idolizing these men and he's not worth being idolizing. I mean, for one thing, his comb over is like ridiculous looking

and I don't know what he's hiding on the top of his head from like how he brings his hair over like that, but just to throw a little meanness back. But the thing about this guy is he doesn't have any Christian values. He doesn't stand up for these godly values in the background. He is a massed millions of dollars for himself, 10 homes that he owns. This is all cataloged absolutely verifiable. 10 homes he personally owns, then three that are in his ministry, including a hunting lodge because every ministry needs a hunting lodge. And then he still comes out, fleeces the people,

gets thousands of dollars and then tells his co-workers and volunteers to pack it into their suit cases, $9,000 each to get this unaccounted forecast back into the United States where he can do unaccounted four things with it. And so that's what we're facing with, you know, people like Sean point. So when I begin to bring this to light, I mean, oh, people are mad at me or just going against the worship later. What is wrong? Has someone, you know, they literally thought somebody had accosted my account at that like somehow I'd, you know, someone had taken over and this was not

really me because they couldn't understand. So I had to like put it out there in several different ways and I had to be more clear. I realized just because I have discernment doesn't mean they do and John, this issue of discernment, this is troubling to me. I thought everyone would see what I see. Everyone should see what you see, John, but they don't. And so the discernment, where is the discernment in today's leaders?

and this this vacuous place now that has no character and people still with power, still with money leading the flocks, no discernment. And it all goes back to the very inception. Branum actually taught the people misrepresented what discernment was.

Desornment in the movement meant that whenever you enter the prayer line, you give a prayer card and you write on it your name, your address, your sickness, and you give it to an usher. And discernment was when he go through the line, he's going to tell you everything that you wrote on that card, that you just handed into the usher.

That was called discernment in the movement. And where I'm headed with that is that these people have taken something that sounds scriptural and they twisted just a little bit. So that if you read the Bible, you think that you're hearing what they're saying, but it's not discernment at all. That is not discernment. That's not what the Bible talks about as discernment. What it did was it reprogrammed the people to think that that was discernment and we don't need the actual discernment. So there was no discernment in the ministry.

That's how it flourished so so rapidly. It grew into this big, this big thing. But I want to circle back to something you said. You're talking about the exploitation of the trans person. I want to highlight that because this movement from its inception was a political cult disguised as a religious cult. And if you think about how politics works, think about two opposing politicians, they're never talking about how you build the other person up. They're never talking about how wonderful the other person the opponent is. They're trying to find as much dirt as they can possibly find on the other person so that they can make them look horrible. This movement began

as a political cult. It was disguised in religion and they were teaching religion in the same way that they do politics. In other words, you come and join us. Everybody who doesn't, they're the bad guys. And they start ridiculing the people who aren't with the movement.

And what that has done over time, and you see the fruits of it today, it has created a people who as Christians, if you don't agree with whatever is their agenda in their church, you're going to be ridiculed. Worse than that, if you are like you just said, a sinner who needs to be saved, you're going to ridicule the sinner. I have friends who are, I have one friend who is trans, and I have a few friends who are homosexual. There is no way I could ever lead them to Christianity by doing this. If you offend them, they're going to be pushed further away. You have to show

your friendship, you have to show your respect. That's how you treat humans. And if you read the Bible and you read how Jesus sat with the sinners, the prostitutes, the woman at the well, all of these examples are examples where Jesus led people to become more like him because he gave them respect.

But in a politician's religion, there is no respect. You're always belittling the other side. So from its inception, from its very core, this was a movement that was created to be the opposite of Christianity.

And you know, on today's show, we're going to be showing a clip of Sean Foitt saying, yes, we want to be Christian nationalists. You know, basically, heck, yeah, we want to have full control of the government.

Heck, yeah, we want Christians to be making all the laws. Oh, yeah. You know, and I remember when Lance Walnut was first coming out with this Christian nationalism. So I've had to go on quite a journey.

And I really am late to the game. I admit it, and I feel foolish about it almost. But Lance Walnut, as someone that I kind of enjoyed watching because I would like his take on politics and his support of different things.

But he would say they're all calling us Christian nationalists. And he was complaining about this term, Christian nationalists. I didn't know what it meant. So I'm like, yeah, well, if Lance is against it, I'm against that term.

Like, why are they using Christian nationalists? And now I'm like, oh, you're a Christian nationalist. You want to take your Christianity to do what Jesus never intended to take over the government. You want to take religion and make our religious position something that would take over Caesar, not honor Caesar.

So give Caesar, render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, but that we do not become Caesar and put ourselves in that position because you just explained it so succinctly. That is the best explanation I've ever heard, John.

When you're a politician, you play dirty. When you're a politician, you are looking for the muck and that guy's back yard so that you can expose him. And then you win. You get to be the political leader.

So when Sean Foyte wants to be a Christian nationalist and he claims that that's exactly what he is. And oh, yeah, we want to have all the power. Well, what do we do? Well, of course, that we trash talk of one young kid.

We put his face all over to millions of people on our social media and tell everyone he's such a mental case that he should be, we should open up all the institutions for this kid.

And we do that because we're not thinking about how Jesus came to love the lost and that Jesus came for all and loves all and hopes that all will understand that their sin will lead them to hell's fire.

But that Jesus has the answer and that he will forgive and he will lead you and he can heal you. And so I did another interview with a guy from queer to Christ. And so he was in the homosexual lifestyle and he's come to Jesus.

And he is so upset about what Christians are doing because they're not loving. This is the first commandment Jesus gave. And Christian nationalists, they are not loving. They are the meanest brood. And I have to say I become a little.

but more mean at them. You know, like sometimes I put out some stuff. Like it is, I am now, like I guess I'm a bit of a warrior. So I'm like Jesus, I'm calling out the, you know, I'm not like Jesus.

I didn't mean to say that John, but what I'm saying is I want to be Christ like in calling out the Christians call, he called out the religious zealots, the white wash supplicers. He had a problem with the Sadducees and the Pharisees.

That was who he had a problem with. Never once did he mock a sinner, you know. He loved them, even Judas who ultimately betrayed him. It was like so painful to him. What an example Jesus is to us of how we are supposed to love and be Christ like.

So now, I mean, I'm pretty mean to the Christians right now. I'm pretty mean to those who call themselves Christians and they allow predators in the pulpit. And I don't really make an apology for it.

I don't know who's going to handle these guys. And I always say, I don't know why a girl with, you know, five, I'm five foot five with fake eyelashes and some fake hair and fake nails and God's asking me to step out into the front of the whole land with my podcast and speak the truth.

And none of them will. And one of the other things is we have to be prepared to lose everything, John. And you in some respects understand this. You have to be prepared to lose the social network that you thought upheld you, the social network that you thought, well, this is where I have respect, you know, because after all, I'm an apostle, you know.

And so some of these guys, they can't do it. They can't release their title and their position to confront sin in the church. And the church is now, it is imploding in so many ways.

And it goes back to the politician stance. I know really, really good people who have ran for office against really, really bad people who had more money. And the campaign, the smear campaigns that came out just ran the guy through the dirt.

And in the end, after you've done this, what happens to the other side? A lot of people aren't really thinking of this. You have a really good person who did run for office. His name is mud in the entire community.

Everybody who stood with him now is kind of skeptical. They're standing back. That's what it's like when you rise up against these movements because the moment in which you speak out, they want to demonize the other party.

Anybody who's not with them, they demonize them. They have a demon. Because we have God, we're little gods. They must be a demon because they're an opposition. It's an us versus them mentality. And when you're presenting religion and an us versus them mentality, who's the one who goes to the them and tries to save them?

That was one of the things when I was leaving the Brana movement. I'm a songwriter, I'm a musician, and I kept having these songs come to me at the time, after time, after time, I'd be in the shower and a new song would come to me.

So fast, I didn't even write down most of them, but they all had one thing. theme. Why are we preaching to the saved? Why are we not preaching to the lost? And I look at all of these movements that came after Brannemism, and they're all doing the same thing. It's a rally. It is like a political rally, but they framed it into Christianity.

And if you're in that rally, you get really excited, you get really hyped up. But if you're not in that rally, if you're somebody who needs the Christ that they're talking about, if you're not in this, they just pounce on you. They show you all of their hatred.

This is not what brings people to Jesus. And in the end, I came to the conclusion that not only was this a false religion, they really don't want to save the lost. They want to be seen as they're better than the lost. That's what ultimately that is the foundation for all of this. We want to show that we're better, because if I can be better than you, I have more power, I have more clout, I have more esteem. Everybody who's in my circle, we can all rally each other and make each other feel good. A feel good religion is not Christianity.

Christianity needs to go out to the people who are depressed and oppressed and go to the transgender person and lift them up. Go to the person who's homosexual and lift them up, not pounce on them with the hatred that these movements are spewing.

100% and in the end, it just isn't glorifying a relationship with Jesus and God is not mocked and he's not happy about it. A few years ago, I had somebody in Edmonton, they prophesied over me that I would have a Jeremiah one calling, that I would have to stand against the whole land, the magistrates, the priests and the people, and not to look at their faces or God, not to be terrified by their faces or God would terrify me. Within a short period of time, I went over to Ontario and somebody said, you know, I just feel the Lord saying that you're going to have a Jeremiah

one calling. That was interesting to me and all of these years happened and I did have lots of fight. I stood against the land, I stood against the education system and I stood up for parents and parental rights in order to have our children not indoctrinated. I did all of these things, but it's like I have never stood up to the whole land like I did this last month and a half and everybody mad at me and I faced something, John, I faced, I was lying there, you know, in the night and I said to my husband, like, am I doing the right thing? There's no blessing on this,

there's no favor, everyone's so mad at me. And my husband is such a good sounding board, but he said, have you done what you felt was right before the Lord? Did you speak exactly what the Lord has told you to say? I said, I believe I have. I have spoken what God wanted me to speak out about the compromise in the church and in these particular people coming into our nation. I have spoken the truth. And he said, then we just do it. People were saying they weren't going to support us anymore. People were like, I'm unfriending you. I'm not

following you anymore. Who is this? You know, you've gone off. You're crazy. You've gone off the deep end. And I'm like, Oh, my word. I thought when, you know, when you're in the will of the Lord, the blessing of God comes. And I've not filled out for a while.

And it was so interesting. And I said, All right, Lord, I'm going to tell you something right now that no matter what it takes, whether I lose all of the accolades of man, I will walk in the fear of the Lord with the integrity of God. And I will speak what you ask me to speak to the entire nation, to the priests, to the magistrates, to the government, to whomever you ask me to speak to, I will be faithful to you and you alone, Lord. And I'm very comforted because I will always have my dogs. They have no idea what I'm saying. They love

me despite everything. And I also will always have my husband. And I think that I'm going to have the friends, you know, who actually see what I'm saying. And they stand with me. So a strange thing began to happen. It was like I needed the Lord tested me. He just, he kind of wanted to see if I would cave into the pressure when people said they're not supporting me anymore, would I be silent? If they're not going to be my friend anymore, if they're leaving my social media, oh, no, I'm going to lose bands. And, you know, what

will you do, Lorelin? And every one of us has to come to that place where we're beginning to say, what does it profit a man to gain the whole world, but lose his soul? What does it profit? If actually at the end of the, the age you are found to be an uncorragious coward in front of God's, you know, judgment day, that would be, to me, the most horrible thing. And for us who fight, we know we're doing the right thing. And, and we do it for an audience of one, which is the Lord Jesus with God, the Father and God, the Holy Spirit,

that we are, we are doing what is right before him and him alone. And I passed a test. I passed a test. I've never faced in my whole life. I've had people upset, but usually, you know, if the, if the, if the sinners are mad at you because you're standing up for righteousness, there's so part of you that goes, well, good, I'm doing God's work. But if the Christians are mad at you because you're doing God's work, like the discernment is not there.

So I passed the test and the Lord began to show me some really cool signs, um, that he's with me. And, and so I felt like, I felt like the pressure eased. I felt like I did what was right.

God is here. And it's a good feeling. I've been through hell and back. I don't know if you and I have even talked about this, but the website, the YouTube site that I have now, the website that I have, it's relatively new because I had grown, you know, leaps and bounds from, from the years 2012 until I think it was just two years ago.

And the cults attacked, they wanted to silence all of the voices, all of the information. They attacked and brought it all down to nothing. And so as I'm in the process of rebuilding, and sometimes when you're rebuilding, you're talking about a voice of one, well, I could literally put something out and have a view of one as you rebuild this kind of like this.

And they're simply put, there's not a lot of money in doing this kind of work and there's not a lot of encouragement. What you get instead are you get the people who need to be a Christian the most attacking you because they don't like, they're uncomfortable with the truth.

They do not like the truth. And especially if you have a voice where others can learn the truth, they want to silence that. And so for people like you and I who are bringing the truth and bringing the hard uncomfortable truths, it feels like it's an uphill battle at all times.

But in the end, like you said, there's only one person that really matters. If you're doing this for money, this is the wrong career, I'll tell you that for certain. And if you're doing it for the right thing, it gives you a greater reward than money because there are people who will contact you years from now.

I had one guy, I want to say it was five or six years. He had been one of my strongest haters and suddenly he woke up and realized, wait a minute. There's not a single thing that John has put out that wasn't true.

I just refused to accept it. And he sent me this long apology and he was very sad and I responded, you know, I wasn't in the same place as you. I thought exactly like you.

And I was programmed in that mindset. I didn't know the politics then. I would use the phrase, a political mindset, but I basically used, I was in the mindset of scorn, I think. I scorned other people, I hated other people.

That's the way we were trained and we were taught that was Christianity. I said, I had the same mindset. It took me a while to wake up from it. I woke up too. So there's nothing to forgive you for.

I did the same thing. I came out of this. And to the listeners who are listening, you too can come out of this. You can rise above it. You can become a better person.

You don't have to be a person who hates other people. And you certainly aren't attracting people to Jesus by hating other people. So I'm glad that you are able to find comfort in this and thank you so much for doing this.

Thank you, John. Thanks for having me on your show again and I appreciate your courage. I appreciate it more and more every day when I'm seeing the lack of leadership, the lack of willingness to put people's selves out to abandon their reputations and abandon their positions to stand up for what is right.

They can't do it. And you have and you've paid a great price. So I can't wait to see your mansion and have it, John. And I appreciate you having me on your show. Thank you so much.

If you've enjoyed a show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at William-Brandom.org and Laura Lynn Live. For more about the dark side of the new Apostolka Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

For more about the dark side of the new Apostolka Reformation, you can find us at www. William-Brandom.org.