Kingdom Confusion: Unraveling the NAR, Christian Nationalism, and Manifested Sons

Music Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at William-Branham.org and with me I have my very special guest, Janet Dornell, on a journey of deconstruction to solidify her faith in Christ. Janet it's good to finally have you on here and to talk through your story. I got your email and we were talking about some big name, some of which I know about them. I don't know a whole lot about them yet because as we were just talking through my my studies

I have extensively studied the history that created this movement and now I'm just getting to slightly understand the world that we live in today, this Christian mess that we live in today. And as people tell their stories I'm starting to pick up pieces and all of those pieces to the puzzle paint the bigger picture of what we have as the New Apostolic Reformation. So very glad to have you on to get your pieces of the puzzle and thank you for joining us.

Maybe you could start by just telling everybody a little bit about yourself. Well thanks John for having me and yeah I've been intrigued by some of your podcasts that you've done and just the history that you've gone into. So like you said I guess I'm more in the last several years of this exploring and then just hearing some of the history that you've shared has been very eye-opening to me and just causing me to really rethink of what I have been seeped in for the last I don't know five ten years and in that time frame at least like the last

five years I feel like pretty much every day I'm asking the Lord what is true and that's just has been a prayer of mine and I feel like in the last just probably six months honestly he's starting to like pull the curtain back and show me the underbelly of some things and you've been part of that journey so that's where I'm at.

Yeah I get accused by a lot of people of being the underbelly and I don't know how I like this.

This was a nasty nasty underbelly if you understand what it is and It's like the matrix, when you take the pill suddenly, when you see it, you can't unsee it. And the deeper that I go, the more rocks that I look up and all the spiders start fleeing, it just gets worse and worse. It doesn't seem to get better.

So people who are escaping this and I think coming to terms with that, this has a dark underbelly. It's got to be difficult. What's it like deconstructing? When you began that journey, was that difficult or what was that like?

Yeah, it's been very uncomfortable because it's like confronting everything, right? You have your friend base and they're all thinking the same thing. And so it's like, well, who can I go to and talk about my questions that I have now?

Or like, I don't think that's really biblical or is it, or am I understanding it differently? It's like, okay, who do I go to? And then I go to church and it's like, I don't know.

Do I fit here and kind of in my, like, and now I think I'm listening more critically to things than before. I think I just kind of took it as like, oh, yeah, they just, you know, said a scripture and that was, and that's biblical.

And so what they're saying must be biblical. I think I just took a lot for granted and I tend to be a steadier. So in this place of reevaluating everything, it also feels really uncomfortable in that, how was I deceived?

And because I'm not just a person that just goes to church and just sits there and I'm not, I'm not a person that's not engaged. Right? And so it's like, so that's been very convicting of how easily I think I've been deceived.

And so I feel like I've been on my face a lot crying out to God and just repenting and yeah, and then trying to figure out where I fit now. And I don't know where I fit to be honest.

So it's just, yeah, uncomfortable and unsettling, I guess would be the short answer of where I'm at. But I'm also thankful for it because like I said, I've been crying and asking pretty much daily, what is true? God, what is true?

And it's from the political arena to the prophets, to you name it. I just feel like I'm in this, I think all of us are kind of in this soup of... We're getting things thrown at us.

And supposedly it's true. They're right. They know the way or, you know, and they're wrong. And we need to be in this camp, you know. And, but there just always seems to be, at least for me, there's just always seem to be something that's a mess.

That's not on target. And so I continue to ask that question. And I feel like I'm in a fire hose now of getting some answers.

It's a whole system of dumpster fires. Right. So with the history, but then with today. So kind of what I am examining of being shown is like there's all these convergence. So tell me, you know, your thoughts on it, but it seems like NAR, New Apostolic Reformation, word of faith, the prophetic Christian nationalism.

Maybe there's some more, but at least like those four, I feel like they're, it's all converging and you get little pieces of it here and there or a whole bunch of it and some streams.

And so how do you like untie all of that? And I guess one of my questions is, is it necessarily all bad? All, or is there truth and God in there?

You know, that's a question that plagued me for the first several years of my escape from the cults. And it's difficult because there are different personalities of people who escape the cults and people who stay in them.

I have a very analytical mind. And so whenever I discover something that was this far off the mark, I get angry, but mostly angry at myself because how on earth did I fall for this?

I have an analytical mind, I think about things. Why did I fall for this? Why did I believe this for so many years? 37 years I believed the nonsense. And so a lot of that anger came out early if you, most of that history has been erased, the cult brought down my original YouTube site, but you could find these, back then, you could find all of these times where I was just openly discussing how frustrated I was, and most of it was myself because I should have known better and didn't.

But then you find people who don't have analytical minds who are in the cult and... They lean more towards pride. No, I can't be wrong. I refuse to believe that I am wrong. And so when an analytical mind comes in contact with this and you try to open a dialogue, what happens is they shut you off immediately and to an analytical person, this is like being punched in the face.

So you come up with these brick walls and you start to really examine everything that they believe in their pride and you get the false sense that everything that they believe must be false because these people are being just very rude to you.

But the truth of the matter is some of what they believe is good, some of what they believe is not, and they're filled with pride, which is one of the most frequently mentioned sins in the New Testament.

So I began this journey of trying to detangle all of the different movements that, like you said, were converging all these ideologies that were converging. And it took me decades to understand the way the group think works.

A movement necessarily isn't necessarily bad and whenever you have a movement, take the fundamentalist movement, for example. This is a group of people that, as the very, very liberal Christianity was emerging, the fundamentalists were saying, no, you're too liberal.

You need to be a little bit more structured in your belief, in your faith. And we believe that the Bible is inerrant, you know, all the fundamentalist things. But the problem is, within every movement, you have people who are legitimately trying to do things right.

And then you have people who are the prideful personalities, who want to go to the extremes because they take pride in whatever they're doing. So you have these extremists that emerge in the movement.

Sadly, some of the movements gets weighed by the extremists. If you were to mention the fundamentalist movement today, it has a very negative connotation because of all of the things that happen in that movement.

What's because the extremists pulled it into a direction that became very destructive? So it isn't necessarily that it all began bad. It may have ended up very destructive. But at the core, most of the movement, nobody wants to say, I want to create a destructive movement that's going to destroy lives.

Nobody says this, right? You all begin with this good intention, but you have a variety of people. And over time, unless you have checks and balances, you're going to have group think sway the movement.

And you don't know which direction is going to be swayed. Further that, by some of the people who sway the movement, or even end in the destruction, the side that begins into the destruction, some of them have a lot of influence over other people.

And cross-pollination happens. One group works with another group. They share ideas. And so you have this big mixture of ideas. And in the end, for me, it was a little bit hard to wade through that because I wasn't interested in a movement.

I could care less about a movement. I wanted to say, what is the truth? What does the Bible say? Why are these movements? Why do they exist? And in the end, where it comes down to is there has to be somewhat of a leap of faith in the beginning because you're never going to find definite answers.

The movements teach you a black or white, like fundamentalists. You're either fundamentalists or you're not. You're either with us or against us, that kind of thing. All the cults are like this. You're either with us or against us.

But in the real world, there's black, there's white, and there are various shades of gray between. And how do you navigate this? And what I've learned is that in my own deconstruction process, I have to find ways to understand the gray.

And sometimes I'll start there. I'll ignore the black, I'll ignore the white. Those are very easy to determine. I'm more interested, what are the variations between all of these beliefs? And why are there variations?

And if you can understand that, it usually unlocks the door to understanding why the movement existed in the first place. That's fascinating. I've often thought about all the different denominations we have, right? And I have Catholicism.

And then you have Martin Luther that came out of that. And then the different, the Wesley and the Holiness movement. All the kind of different takes, I guess. But it's like, I think I've heard someone say it like this.

Of like Catholics, they received a revelation or a new insight into, you know, Scripture or something. And so they created what they created. Well, then Martin Luther comes along and has a new revelation of Scripture.

And so instead of just adding on or combining, it's like we break completely away and start a new thing. And then we break away and start a new thing and break away and start a new thing.

And there was good and there was truth and there was life and some of the things that we've broken away from. Right? And so then we just have a bunch of these pillars, isolation, their own kingdoms.

I don't know what you want to call it all. But it seems like in this place that I'm in right now. Oh, the other one that I thought of is the new thought, which I had never heard that term.

I just heard that term. And that seems... obviously has a psychological grounding to it. But do you think that that started more from like Dr. Schuller and the crystal cathedral and that positive think and everything and now like Joel Olstein now really does it? But honestly I'm seeing that everywhere.

Well let me answer that first question. So and I don't know a whole lot about this history. So somebody may correct me in the comment feeds if I'm incorrect. But Newt thought seems to have emerged as a I guess a balance against the growing some of the growing Christian doctrines that were prevalent like Calvinism. They Newt thought people did not believe in human depravity which I'm still forming an opinion but I understand where the Newt thought came from.

We one of the churches that we attended after leaving the cult they were really big into the human depravity thing. It was one of their fundamental every sermon was based around this. It was a fundamental doctrine to them. And the problem that I had with the way that it was presented was that I have children I have animals and the way you encourage somebody to do the right thing isn't to tell them that they're evil they're bad they're inherently bad. You encourage them by giving them positive feedback not by the negative feedback. So I'm sitting here listening to sermons

where sermon after sermon after sermon you're lower than dirt. You're the most evil thing ever. Thankfully God came and sent a son which I get maybe that's okay maybe you can find scripture to support some of that. But over time what happens is you get so beaten down that you leave there feeling like you are lower than dirt you feel awful. And I came to the conclusion that there are certain doctrines that whether it's right or wrong it isn't healthy to focus so heavily upon them. Maybe it's right maybe it's wrong but I don't want to hear every Sunday how I'm the

worst awful person ever and thank God that he sent his son to make my awfulness go away. I want to hear that I'm a good person and I also want to serve Jesus because I'm a good person I'm doing the right thing. So there's this weird balance but new thought seems to have emerged in counter to all of this and they were basically creating a new way of thinking. This is a bad way of thinking according to them so we're creating a good way of thinking. Now did that end up good? I don't know that's for somebody else to answer. I don't know that I don't know that I could take the leaps that

they did because one of the other things that I have found specifically in regards to the movement that I escaped which would have been the foundation for the NAR today. There was a There was an attempt to throw everything into the spiritual realm.

Anything that you do, there were always spirits or demons. Angels or demons always around you with you. And the problem is, especially for an analytical mind, this is something that you can't see, control, feel, act apart.

But you had to pretend that you could. You have to pretend that you're warning against that, right? Yeah, pretend is probably not the right word, but you start to believe things that aren't there.

I'll say it like that. You start to believe that you're communicating with the angels, demons, God speaking to you. I was with one person and they were, unfortunately, handicap, but they were trying to get a handicap parking space.

I watched them zoom in and cut off another handicap person to get into that spot. And then bow down, oh, thank you, Jesus, that you gave me this parking space. And I'm sitting here, don't think Jesus, you just cut off that person.

And it was quite rude when you did it. And that world, for me, it creates a problem because mentally it puts you into a state where you're easily susceptible to mind control. And if you can get a person into that state, you can hijack their minds.

So I don't know that I could go where the new thought people went, but unfortunately, a lot of people in later reign seems to have some of the same influence. I know Phineas, Quimby, and some of the others really influence the movement.

So I have problems with it, yet I see it everywhere. Yeah, that's what it seems like to me. So when you said that there was such a spiritual focus, so tell me what you think.

Now it seems like, and maybe I'm wrong, but with the whole nor and prophetic movement, even new thought, it all feels to me very earthly focused, the health and wealth messages

of making your life better, reframe your thoughts. I just finished a coaching certification. And now I'm sitting on this side of going through that coaching thing. And it's like, I think the coaching certification was all new thought.

It was like, oh dear, what did I just do? But I'm sitting here with all of that. And I'm feeling like we're so earthly minded and not enough spiritually minded. Cause like, nah, it's all about bringing the kingdom here and now, and taking the seven mountains.

You know, all of that, with what you were talking about, the spiritual demonization and warfare. So a lot of the language is a warfare language, but it feels like it's been very much earthly focused.

Here's where your conversation is fascinating to me, because the things that you're describing, I'm putting myself into your state of mind, and remembering my state of mind back in 2013, 2014. Every question that you're asking me are questions that I was asking myself. Unfortunately, I didn't have anybody who is open to talking through it. So I had to figure out, I was stumbling through the darkness trying to figure all of this out. And it's not that I have all the right answers.

And I don't know that there are right answers. Each person, their deconstruction process is different. But there are people who have been through it, and they can help and give some assistance. One of the things that I had a hard time understanding was the way in which we were taught the Bible, isn't the way in which it was written or intended by the original authors of the Bible.

The Bible wasn't a book. It was a library of books. The Bible canon was chosen by men who literally went through several books and said, these are the ones that we consider to be the gospel, these are not the gospel, but these are the ones that we consider to be holy. These are the ones that we do not consider to be holy either because they have been influenced by other Gnostic views or pagan views, or they just simply were good books that weren't written under the inspiration of God. And that word inspiration of God, I think, was key for me to understand.

We were taught the Bible in such a way that every verse, line, everything had a specific application to us today. And when I began to understand how the Bible came to be, why it came to be, and what it actually was, my mind was blown. It was like, again, taking that pill in the matrix, and suddenly I can't unsee this, you go through the books of the law, the books of Moses, and a lot of it was, it wasn't just religious law, there were civil law, there were health codes. There is a passage, and I can't remember what book is it's in, somebody in the

comments making talk about it, but there's literally a passage that talks about how not to get mold in your hut. And I'm reading this, and I'm thinking, well, that doesn't sound very spiritual, that sounds like I've got Tilex, and I can spray, yeah, it's pretty practical, I can spray Tilex, and I can do the same thing now. Does that make me holy because I'm spraying Tilex?

to understand that the Bible is composed of different genres, and even within the same, like the letters of the New Testament, even within the same document, there are different subject matters, some of which have different genres, and I began to understand all of that, and then began to understand why they tried to bring it to the spiritual realm, and then bring it back to earth so that they could make money. I mean, literally that's what it all comes down to. They wanted to make money, and where I ended up was this. The things that we were that we

focused so heavily on, the health wealth gospel, for example, we were in the Brannamites, we were the precursor to the wealth gospel. It was the health gospel, which was also a prosperity. If you have good health, you're prospering in health. So it was a precursor to this, but yet while they're preaching this, they're also preaching that we don't need these bodies anymore. We're going to cross to the other side soon, the rapture's coming. So there's this conundrum.

Do we need this body to be fixed, or are we going to throw it away in the next day or two? There was always that weird balance, right? Yeah, but there's more money in saying, come to me, I will heal your disease if you come to the platform and let me pray for you. There's always that. So a seed and then you'll get a blessing. Right. Right. So there's that problem. Well, the other problem too is because they put so much focus on the spiritual realm. And because this movement was from its inception, it began as this healing prosperity. All forms

of medical science were somewhat condemned or discouraged. And especially the mental health sciences, I am fascinated with psychology. But as I began to understand that psychology is to the brain, what a medical doctor would be to, you know, if you go to a stomach doctor for a stomach condition and he gives you a stomach medicine, we go to a psychologist and he talks through using medical science to talk to fix the issues in your head and help you process what's in your head. It's a medical science. Now, while yes, so your question was talking about the things that you're doing as coaching and too much in the physical

realm, when my opinion, the psychology is a medical science that can be achieved in this earthly realm. However, the movements want to take it out of this and put into a spiritual and make you feel less like God is involved with this. But in my opinion, God is involved. God helped the medical science to come to where it is today.

God is behind the entire thing in the same way that a person who is in full charge and full control of everything that has happened in history would want to do to help people. I want to help people, so I'm going to teach them medical science and we're going to teach them coaching. And in the end, where I came to was the fact that if you want to help people, some of the ways that you help people might not seem very spiritual to you, but what was the spirit or who was in control who taught

them how to do this? Who was the one who progressed mankind in such a way that they had the tools to help with medical science and with psychology with all of these things? So for me, I had to understand that God was in it, but not in the way that they tried to say God was in it. It wasn't a direct connection because there was a stage act on a platform doing some sort of a gimmick. It was this overarching control of everything. Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign,

charismatic and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation? You can learn this and more on William Brandham Historical Research's website, William-Brandham.org. On the book's page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon and others, with links to the paper, audio and digital versions of each book. You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top. And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio

or video version that you're listening to or watching. On behalf of William-Brandham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support. So I'm 53 and I've grown up in the church. I'm a pastor's kid. And you know, there's been these different phases over the years. Like in the 1990s, was really spiritual warfare. And then for like the last 30 years, it's been pretty much just silent. And now it's all coming to a front again, deliverance ministries, everything like that.

I've never really been around the healing ministry, healing revivals or things like that. I haven't really ever experienced that. But like what you were saying, so that was big part of Brownism. And now you have like the Tim Sheets, Dutch Sheets, really pushing healing services.

I mean, there's so many that are pushing healing, healing, healing. So that's really fascinating, like the cyclical thing that's happening with just, I guess, a little bit new spins on it. But going back to also what you said, the tension between our bodies here and our heavenly bodies and the new earth and the new heaven and all the focus on health right now.

I don't know if I have a question or not in that. And does it, like what you said, does it just go back to money? Does it just go back to where pursuing that now?

We're going after that, not necessarily because God is saying to go after that now, but because we want to exploit people and create more money and more fame and more platform. I don't know.

There's multiple aspects. So in the cult, we were taught everything is black or white, true or false, good or bad, that kind of thing. But people are more complex than this. That's why I like to focus on the grays.

There are people who are driven by money and you can clearly see from their stage acts. That's what they're pushing. Give me more money. I want an airplane. I want to catalog whatever it is.

Not everybody is motivated in the same way. There are some people who just like power and they want, maybe they want money in power or maybe they just want power. But there are other types of people who like, I mentioned this in the before we started recording.

I'm in an odd place because I don't, what I'm doing in this podcast is really out of my character. I'm not one who likes to talk, I'm not like one, I'm not one who likes recognition.

During parties growing up, if I went to some sort of birthday party or something, I'm the guy that's standing in the corner, sipping coffee, watching everybody else make a fool of themselves. That's my personality.

So for me, if I were to be of that ill intent and become some sort of a, one of these guys in the new apostolic reformation, it wouldn't be my personality to do it from money.

It would be avoiding, for me it would be avoiding recognition. I would try to do it in such a way that I could help people and watch the benefits of them being helped. So I would feed off of helping people.

There are ministers who are in the movement that are like this, they truly believe what they're doing, they truly believe it's for a good cause, and so they build the ministries off of it.

There are also those who like the recognition that could care less the money, the power, they just want the respect and the dignity of doing it, I guess. So, you have all of these different complex types of personalities who are feeding off of this. Interestingly, the ones with my personality who literally just does it to help people, the sad thing is it comes to a point when you're looking at any of this thing that is the new apostolic reformation. The comes to a point where you can realize that it's truly not helping the people. So, people with my personality types can't really thrive or

survive in this environment. You come to a point where you realize that this isn't working. Let's try something else. Yeah, I think that's true. Because I'm driven kind of more analytical too. And I would say being in this the last several years, I feel like I've just gotten more depressed and more dissolutioned, more frustrated than I feel like I've been helped.

So, yeah, I get that. Okay, I want to, I want to switch gears a little bit and Christian nationalism, so that really, you know, is buzzword over like the last four years or so. And that first one I heard it, I just ignored it, puhu did, it was like whatever, I'm not that. And I was fully bought into it, whatever it was that I was bought into. I've always had a fascination with history and government. So, it was easy for me just to dive in, right? But now standing here, I am really having to take a hard look at all of that. And there was a statement you made in a podcast that I

listened to and it just pierced me. And I think that really was what started just kind of unraveling for me was you said, and I don't even fully remember the context, so you can probably give the listeners the context of the statement, but you said it is a political cult with a Christian front.

And when I heard that, I just like about fell out of my chair and it's like that's exactly what I have been living in for, you know, especially like since 2020, right? Maybe even back to like 2016. And then I started thinking about like all the prophetic voices that are out there, they all have this government bent to them. And I'm It's all about America.

It's not about the nations of the world. It's not about Uganda or anywhere else. It's just about America. It's not even about Europe or, you know? And it's like, okay, God does not just care about America.

That is not, and then all of these dreams and revelations and revelations and prophecies are all America-focused and Trump-focused and

and it's like, okay, that just doesn't make sense. And then from that, that Christian nationalism has come this kingdom, dominionism, and talk, and again, at first I was totally bought into that. I didn't even see it or hear it the way that I think they may intend to be speaking about it.

I sought more from a spiritual standpoint, you know, that are armor of God and, you know, different things like that. I didn't see it from an earthly takeover, take control,

but that I am salt and light. And so wherever I occupy, wherever I live, right, I'm bringing Jesus. I'm bringing the kingdom of God because the kingdom of God lives within me, because Jesus Christ is in me.

So I never even, it never even dawned on me. This militant government take it, control it, you know, command, decree.

So again, I feel like I'm rambling, but there's just like so much there of like, where did they come from?

Where does it have an endpoint where it's going? There's so much to unpack with that. I don't know, we've got like 20 minutes left in this podcast. I don't know if we had 50 times that to even skim the surface of how this came to be.

But interestingly, it ties back to what I was saying earlier about the fundamentalist party. So you had the rise of Christian liberalism in the United States. You had the fundamentalism that was growing. Well, that fundamentalist liberal debate was centered around evolution.

Like today, whenever you think about religion and politics, you always think about the gay rights and LGBTQ. That's where the political focus of religion is today. Back then, it wasn't that. It was evolution.

They were so strongly against evolution. Lucian fundamentalist party was rising. He had the scopes, monkey trial. William Jennings Bryan was one of the strongest supporters of fundamentalism. Well, when he died, there was this void that took over the United States because he was the most outspoken leader, William Jennings Bryan.

He had the slogan that was something to the effect we need to defend the Christian faith or something like this. I've mentioned the name Gerald Burton-Winrod and several of the podcasts. He created a movement based off of that slogan called the defenders of the Christian faith.

And interestingly Charles Fuller, a Fuller theological seminary who was, this is the seminary where C. Peter Wagner, John Wimber came out of. He was very strong into this movement. Well, when Rod went to Germany, I think he had counsel directly, either directly with Hitler or indirectly.

He goes there, a very poor little known minister from Kansas, comes back very wealthy. For some reason, after visiting Germany, starts this party and starts invading the United States with this document called the protocols of the learned elders of Zion, which was an anti-Semitic text, which was basically this fictional Jewish plot to rule the world.

And so this guy comes spreading that the liberalism that we see today, it's coming because of the Jews' secret agenda, they're invading the United States. We need to rise up as Christians against this.

At the same time, that theme was brewing. You had Christian, you had British Israelism, which was a notion that the United States and Canada were the direct descendants. So there was this royal heritage type of viewpoint mixing together with anti-Semitism.

And this spread all throughout, well, when Rod created the Christian nationalist party, I think it was 1930s that he created this. So this isn't something new, this Christian nationalist idea. It's been, I would say it predates that to quite an extent, but that was when it was formally given a name, I believe, was in the 1930s.

What's interesting is, I've got a photograph of when Rod and Fuller and some others at the Cadel Tabernacle in Indianapolis, Indiana, where William Brannum launched Jim Jones' career. So there's this weird locational tie in that same area in, at the time, all of this is brewing.

There was a man named Gerald L. K. Smith who later rose to be the head of the California Ku Klux Klan. Gerald L. K. Smith started the Christian nationalist crusade, I think he called it.

But basically further, the idea of Christian nationalism. It was because of Gerald O.K. Smith that it became such a name that it did. So the movement itself began with these themes of anti-Semitism, some white supremacy, a lot of anti-liberal movements. It was basically built around Christian fundamentalism, specifically to combat evolution, but what happened is over time as it began to shift, especially in the you know, Gerald O.K. Smith is pushing into the 40s and 50s. You're starting to see the third wave of the Ku Klux Klan emerge and this became widespread. We need to defend, we need to military,

with our military grade weapons, we need to defend the United States against our own government. That was one of the sentiments that they had. What's the biblical framework for it? Well, that's where it gets really tricky and interesting. When the 1915 Ku Klux Klan Constitution was written, it was written to be declared as a Christian organization to defend the nation against the outside forces that weren't Christian. So the militant language usually, whenever there is a sermon in Christian nationalism, they'll usually go back to the Old Testament where there's some nation warring against Israel and you know, the prophecies surrounding this. Well, that's why they

use prophecy so heavily. They will try to bind a prophecy against the enemy and say that we are the, we're the chosen ones, you're not the chosen ones, we're the United States, we're part of the royal seat of Abraham and you're not this. So that's why there's, that's why there's those themes, but it all began with the idea that this was a Christian organization. When in fact, it was a domestic terrorist organization. So I do feel that in everything that I've been in, that it's a

a really focused on Old Testament scriptures and works orientated. So under law, and even though, you know, they profess the new covenant and that we've been crucified in Christ and things like that, it's still, the undertones seem to be Old Testament and works of law. So I can get that of where that would come from, but then if we go to Jesus and the New Testament, he never dealt with the government. He never, I mean, he, he never really said a negative thing about the Roman government that was awful, was horrendous. I mean, we, about America's government being so awful and evil and corrupt, but I don't even think it

pills and comparison to the Roman Empire. And that wasn't Jesus's focus. And so there's like, how did we, so we take Jesus, but then we go backwards. I guess, if that's what feels like happening is like, we're going to take Jesus, but we're not really going to take Jesus. Like, I just heard in this whole movement, they said, I think I sent this to you. They said, the Kingdom of God is not a religion, it is a government, it is a nation. And it's like, well, there's some truth in that that, you know, we go to Isaiah, what is it? Um, nine, Isaiah and six or nine, where it says

the government is upon his shoulders. Um, and God obviously created order and um, hierarchy and different things like that. Um, so yes, you could technically say that the Kingdom of God is government. And yet that seems to be totally missing who Jesus Christ is and who, what our faith is in. Jesus is not a government nor is he a nation because if we have Jesus Christ as the son of God, living in us, we have accepted him into our lives. He said in scripture that the Kingdom of Heaven is a hand. One of the things that Jesus also said was that the Kingdom of Heaven is not

this world, not of this world exactly. We've talked about just sorry to interrupt, but that is where isn't it where they are pulling from heaven into the earth realm. Matthew 22 has one of the most profound things about Kingdom that exists in the New Testament. Whenever they're trying to, you have to understand the situation that was happening in the days when Jesus was alive, you had Rome had invaded with, they were under control, they're having to pay heavy taxes to Rome and they're trying to trap Jesus and they say, do we need to pay our taxes or should we not? And

he picks up the coin and says, whose face is on it? Render into Caesar, what Caesars? He's literally taking a separation between him and the current politics of the era. He's saying, this is not part of politics that you deal with your money. My Kingdom is not of this world. The British Israelism, which was at the core of, so there is British Israelism, the idea that United States and Canada were part of the lost tribes of Israel. Well, Christian identity was whenever the anti-Semitism and the white supremacy mixed into this. That's whenever our kingdom can't

have blacks or Jews. That's literally what this became. But the core belief system of British Israelism was that all of the passages in the Old Testament concerning the Jews are applicable to the world today. And they would say things like it has a twofold meaning. Yes, this verse is talking about the Jews and ancient Nineveh, but also this has a two-part meaning part of the supplies to us today. What does it mean? And they would have all of these prophecies and visions and try to interpret what is the dual meaning of this. So that's the reason why the focus is so

heavily upon the Old Testament. The problem with that is to do that, you have to basically reestablish everything that the Old Testament has in effect for the laws, which includes the feasts, the sacrifices, all of these things. And there's a statement in the New Testament that if you fail one aspect of the law, you're guilty of the whole thing. So if they're not doing this, they're guilty of the whole thing, which is interesting. But an even bigger problem with this is you have to destroy the idea of the covenants. There is no new covenant. Instead, there's a

blend of a covenant. Yes, we have the new covenant, but we're also under the law. So all of the passages in the New Testament talking about the new covenant, they all have to be either reinterpreted or twisted in such a way that you can say, yes, we believe this new covenant is an effect and it replaces the Old covenant, but we also believe we're under the Old covenant. So in doing that, what you're essentially doing is you're creating a new Bible, one that doesn't exist.

I hear it in the different, you know, sermons and different ministries that I've been involved in. I hear all of that that you just said. Like, I never knew about Jewish calendar and Jewish history and the Jewish feasts really, you know, besides reading and inscripture, but we never practiced it in our churches or things like that. But you see all of that taking place quite heavily in the NAR, especially NAR and prophetic. So that's fascinating to me that so that is a stream of resurrecting, I guess, the Old Testament and the Old Testament law. Fascinating because I never

would have identified it that way. I just was so intrigued to learn new things and be a part of that. I mean, you could hear me saying, well, Jesus, came as a Jew, and he lived as a Jew, and he died as a Jew, and he's coming back as a Jew.

So we should know these things. So there's so much to learn and it's so difficult whenever you first begin on the deconstruction journey. Even some of the things that I've said might not really resonate because there, it's like these building blocks of false doctrine. Before you can see that many things underneath what you're currently focused on are false, you have to unravel, like peeling, better example is peeling an onion. You peel one layer off and you find another, then you peel that off and you find another. Well, when you get down to the core, what I found, and some people

have similar experiences, you find that the core itself was completely rotten and you didn't want to eat any of the onion. And so you go find a different onion. Well, what onion do you find?

And for me, that was the part where I just threw everything away. I started with a blank slate. I read the Bible over and over and over and over multiple times trying to wash all this out of my head. Let's just start there and let's build on that. If you have a different foundation than that, then can you really even call it a Christian movement? Your foundation should be the Bible, not something else. So that's where I ended up with. Yeah, I feel like I'm there. A friend's, I told her, you know, I'm in deconstruction, I think. And she is like, and I told her, I haven't

gone to church in several weeks. I can't do it. I can't listen to worship music. I can't, I can't, I can't. And she's like, don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Don't throw it all out.

You know, we do these, and she's like, we do these pendulum shifts and we go from one extreme to the other. I was like, I know I get that, but right now in this spot, I just feel like all of it needs to go away. And I just need Jesus and His Word. I just need Him. And I don't need any of these other voices and theories and prophecies.

I, all of that has just left me so empty. And like, because it's been works orientated and I didn't even realize that. And like, you have to muster up so much faith, like faith is a force. It's not a relationship with Jesus, all of this stuff. It has left me so empty. And like, I'm just constantly chasing a carrot. And I can never get to the carrot. And in all of it, all of it, the prophetic words, the, you know, the Christian naturalism of we're going to defeat the enemy. And we're going to have a new government. And, you know, we're going to be gold backstandard, you know, just whatever it

is, right? It's. It's like, it's just constantly, it's coming, the new things coming, the more we want the more, and it's like, don't Jesus do enough? So that's been my question, it's like, don't Jesus complete, finish, do enough when he came, when he lived, when he died, when he rose again, wasn't that enough?

And it doesn't seem like it's enough in this whole conglomerate mess that we're in. So one final thing to talk about, if we have a couple more minutes, is another statement that I've heard several of them make is, God is in charge, but he's not in control.

We are in control, and it doesn't, I don't know where that comes from, I don't know how that is scriptural at all, because all authority is given to Jesus Christ, and he holds all things together.

He is the, you know, the Alpha and the Omega. That sentiment feels like, like we're putting America first, like, that sentiment is putting us first, and it's all about us, and about what we command, decree, declare, prophesy, again, all the works, right, of doing the kingdom, bringing the kingdom, being the king down, and God and Jesus are just somewhere on the peripheral.

I'm glad you brought that up, because I don't think people have yet grasped what I have been trying to say with the Joel's army, manifested sons of God doctrine, and how problematic it is.

So picture William Brannum as the foremost leader of the post-World War II healing revival, thousands and thousands of people who are joining into these revivals, hundreds, two thousands of ministers who are hearing what he says, and using it as marching orders to believe that the church in the 1940s, 50s, and 60s was the literal return of Jesus Christ.

Jesus was returning in the form of these people through the manifested sons of God doctrine. God is manifesting Himself in the church, and that is the return of Jesus. We're becoming little gods, that was the theory.

And we're becoming little gods why, because these invading forces, the mystery Babylon, which literally was the Jews in the blacks, mystery Babylon is invading, we need to become militant, we need Joel's army, and God's going to give us the power of gods to walk out upon their ashes.

That was the doctrine. How do you do this? You take the all-powerful omniscient God of the Bible, and you demote Him. You make Him lower, lessen power, and then raise your spiritual five-fold ministry higher in power. One of the ways that the Brannum was saying this to all of these men, and they're all just eating it up, he would say things like, Jesus could not do one single thing unless he first saw a vision from God. So he literally rendered Jesus himself powerless, the Christian religion, the ones who believed, Christ was just a man who is empowered through the manifested

sons of God doctrine and received his marching orders by seeing a vision, which is why the movement focuses so heavily on a vision. It's not. It's not even as it extrabiblical. This is one of the things that he taught that was anti-biblical, and all of these men, women, and they're offspring who are in, I mean, we're talking leadership figures who went on to have other ministries and influence other churches. They were believing this thing that he was teaching. That's why manifest that son of God exists today. They really believe that God was powerless, and you have to have humans in power,

otherwise God is not in control to finish the work. In other words, what is it? John 19, Jesus says, it is finished. They're literally saying it is not finished. We have to finish it.

Wow. It just like goes in the face of so much Scripture, right? I did hear Dutch sheets say that we are a new race. We are a supernatural race, and so that would fit the manifested sons of God mentality, right? And it goes back what he's saying is echoing the very, very racist Christian identity doctrine. They were talking about a coming race war. So we are the good race. There's coming a bad race. We need the manifested sons of God to stand up and fight against the bad race. Christian identity at its core was the idea that there are two bloodlines.

In fact, it will probably come out before this, but I have two podcasts talking about Bill Johnson, about the church, preaching about the DNA, how it's different for believers. That was what was being taught. We have the good DNA. The others have the bad DNA. We will eventually need the manifested sons of God to fight the bad DNA. So with that, and I've been a part of this, so I just I have to take full responsibility for my part, but that creates such us versus them mentality, right? And so judgmental. So like you mentioned, you know, the LGBT, that's where the focus is right now.

But if we are a superior race and they are not, then it becomes easy to hate them or just rail against them instead of seeing them as image bearers that need Jesus. Just as much as I'm an image bearer that needs Jesus, they need to be loved and cared for just as much as I do.

But that whole thinking puts us into this us versus them. And I think I was starting to really notice that just like government wise, you know, Republicans versus Democrats or Trump supporters versus, you know, whoever it was, the deep state versus, you know, it's always this dichotomy, right? So then that dichotomy is always created because we are the supernatural race.

And because we're the supernatural race, therefore we need to dominate, we need to take control of things to bring in the supernatural order, the supernatural kingdom. Is that what I'm understanding? That seems to be the theme. Now, whether some of the people preaching it actually believe that or not, it's hard to say, but that's where the doctrine came from. Historically, that's where the roots are. But anyway, this has been great fun. I feel like I feel like this is more of me being interviewed than bringing you to share your story, but it's all good. It's fun. Thank

you for doing this. Yeah, I think we just scratched the surface. Absolutely. If you've enjoyed our show and you want to share your story, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at William-Brandom.org. From more about the dark side of the new apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR, available in Amazon, Kindle, and Automore.

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