Faith Is Not a Substance: Surviving Hobart Freeman’s Cult

Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at William-Branham.org and with me I have my very special guest, Liz Shella, former member of Faith Assembly and also Chen O'Ross who was researching Faith Assembly. Chen O'R I just got to see you what was it two days ago, three days ago and we've been talking through all of this weird mess that was Faith Assembly and how it connected to various groups forwards and backwards in time and I was really excited we were

talking about bringing Liz on to share her story. It's very glad to have Liz on and maybe Liz if you could take a moment and just begin by telling everyone a little bit about yourself. Sure. I was 19 living in Ohio newly married and at the time husband's brother who got us involved in the charismatic movement. Thanks a lot Bill and he told us about this church in Indiana that was this college professor that was going to offer everybody a seminary education for free just show up and buy the books and I'm like I'm all about that. I became a Christian when

I was 15 was not raised well I was kind of raised in the Presbyterian so the charismatic thing was was pretty dramatic for me that's how I rebuild so we moved there and that was the day because of the glory bar and it was I got to tell you it was pretty exciting the atmosphere was incredible a lot of young people just a lot of energy and at that time it was really a lot of teaching Old Testament survey, New Testament survey and that's how we got involved there and we left in that was in 1975 and we left in 79 shortly after they

moved into the new building so we were there for all the phases you know the glory barn the the exile to the tents and and then the new building and it just it was just it just got too weird it got too weird it's funny hearing you say it like that you have fond memories of being in the group I also have fond memories of being in the group so I fully understand where you're coming from and We recently met with a lady who had escaped a random cult and she also described this.

It's funny to me when I read the comment feeds, you find the people who are still very active in the groups and they think that you left it because you didn't like it and you're disgruntled or all of this stuff, all of the baggage that comes with it.

But many of us like myself had a good time. It's not that we didn't like it. It's just that we found that it was so far off the mark and I could not continue my family and something that was wrong.

Yeah, very much so the same for us. We were kind of on the fringe, outer fringe of the inner group knew a lot of the young teachers and it was very special in the beginning, especially for young people like us.

And as time went on, it just got harder and harder to, of course, one of their favorite phrases when we would be talking about different stuff theologically is, you eat the meats, spit out the bones.

Well, we ended up with a diet of bones, basically. And I noticed the biggest change when we left the glory barn. And we were in the tents and we met in homes for a while.

My ex-husband and I met in his brother's home. He was, he was actually in charge of doing the tape editing for Dr. Freeman. And so he was kind of on the inner circle a little bit, but it was a real hierarchy there.

And after we left the glory barn, things started to get just really contentious. I saw a big change in Dr. Freeman. He was always this mysterious daddy figure. He would walk onto the stage.

But we were more involved with Bruce Kinsey, some of the younger teachers. Bruce will always have a special place in my heart. I think Bruce was in over his head from day one. And as Dr. Freeman got more and more paranoid the only term I can use, he started turning on his own leaders.

And after the catalyst for me was the Jonestown thing. We were rebels to a certain extent. We kept our, we kept our TV. It was hidden in the back room. But when Jonestown hit and all of the news outlets

were talking about the characteristics of a cult, it was like, you could have knocked me over with a feather. It's like this, this is our life. And so I was ready to leave them.

It's been a little longer, but fortunately, thank God for me, when I became a Christian, God really gave me a love for his word. And so I was always a student of the word.

So I was a little quicker to go, you know, this is not right. Hebrews 111 was one of my favorite examples. When you have somebody like Hobart Freeman, who's supposedly the scholar, faith is a substance of, you know, and he actually taught that faith is a substance of things hoped for.

And that when you hope and you have faith, this turns the substance manifest what you want. It was like, I don't think that's what that says. But, you know, who am I? I think that's the response that so many people had with different things, Hobart, taught, they had a little sneaking suspicion in their own mind, something's not exactly right here, but almost invariably those people pushed it under the rug.

And I know I did that really early on, but because I was a minister pretty young, then I quickly had to come to grips with some of those things that I didn't agree with either.

And so when you were at the glory barren, you were there in 1975. So you really did see the glory barn, then you saw the breakup between Hobart and Mel and Mary Beth Grider, moved to the tents and moved to the new building.

What you just said is what we have heard from almost everyone that the transition from the glory barn to their future location was a turning point. It's like Hobart, you know, he was, he had this somewhat kind and accepting spirit prior to that, but once he had the fallout with Mel and Mary Beth, and once he knew I think that they were going to get their own place where he's not renting from someone else, then didn't you think that he took it to an entirely different level of just authoritarianism?

We're the ones and we're the only ones. Oh, absolutely, that was a dramatic shift. It became a feeling of, you know, we've been evicted and now we're being persecuted. And that's when the media started getting involved.

I remember back when, was it Jerry Berkett's wife died? That was, yeah, Sally, that was glory barn days. Nobody criticized him. Everybody stepped up, helped him take care of the baby. It was just a tragedy and everybody kind of rallied around him.

And so to see the the difference between what it used to be like and the sense of family and community and what it ended up being. And I was mentioned to you before because of the whole positive thinking and confession thing, you couldn't talk about anything.

Right. And so we kind of heard hints and, you know, whispers of, did you hear that so and so died? Or their child died? No, I hadn't heard that. I'm sure it's just a rumor, you know.

And so we really did not know the extent of what was going on which was one of the reasons, and we weren't trying to be heroic about it, but one of the reasons after we left and moved back to Ohio while we started reaching out to the media and saying, can you please fill us in because we have no clue what was happening.

There were just things that were taboo. You couldn't make a negative confession. You couldn't, you know, that was gossip. That was backbiting. That was being an accuser of the brethren. And it was, it was really shell shock.

We walked away and it just, I was just stunned and really eager to find out what in the world who we had been a part of. John knows from these interviews that the two of us have done together that those newspaper articles, some of which contain your name and your husbands and your brother-in-law, that was my source of information because when I would try to talk to Hobart or June and I did talk to both of them or to someone else connected to the church, just as you described Liz, it was, they shut everything down as far as information.

And that's a problem with an organization like that. And I'll always tell people, it's one of the true signs of a cult when they control all the information. When you're not allowed to hear or see or learn anything apart from what comes from the pulpit, you probably have a religious cult on your hands because a normal, healthy church environment, as Avolfin said, the pastor obviously believes what he's teaching is right or he wouldn't be teaching it, but he doesn't forbid you to disagree with him or to check out other sources.

That's just part of what human life and adulthood are all about. But I would not have known about those deaths. You didn't know about them because you weren't reading the newspapers and weren't allowed to as soon as you got out and you could get your hands on a few newspaper articles and before you know it, you're just astounded at the number of deaths.

And you're right, Sally Burkett and her unborn child were early ones back in, 1976, right around the 4th of July in 1976, and it was, as you said, always as though we are being persecuted, not that someone has died.

It's like they didn't have any value for human life. What they valued was their cult doctrine, and they really valued this persecution complex that they wore very proudly. Absolutely. And Dr. Freeman, in particular, it got to the point where that's all he talked about.

He wasn't even really teaching much anymore. He was talking about, you know, don't talk about this and don't talk to these people. And, you know, it's the end times, and we're the overcomers and yikes.

Yeah, it was really tragic, really tragic to watch that disintegration of him in particular and the leadership and that family feeling that just that got left behind when we left the barn. I find it fascinating that I'm involved with the former members of the Jonestown group, which that is, it's an unbelievable story.

Those who are unfamiliar Jim Jones, and somewhere around 900 of his followers committed mass suicide in Jonestown, Guyana, I've been working with the Jonestown Institute and they've invited me to some of the community support groups.

What most people miss about that event, when you think of that event, you think that's it, it stopped, it's done, it is no more. There's no way that anybody could continue in this thing.

But a lot of people don't realize that there were other components to this. You had the actual massacre in Jonestown, Guyana, but there were actually people's temple groups and support groups and little satellite groups that were throughout various places.

And in the United States. And much like you described, information flowed very, very slowly into those groups. One of the people that I was talking with said that she and her husband actually joined people's temple after the event because they were trying to get information about their family members who had died sadly.

And the only way to get information they thought was to join the group, but even then the information's being withheld. Yeah, that's the truth. And again, it's like the old game of telephone by the time it gets from a little bit, from one person to a little bit to another and on and on, you never know what's real.

And like I said, it was, it was real shell shock after we left. People that we knew that we had no idea what was going on in Marty Mud and their children. It's just complete shock.

So you guys evidently, you lived in Ohio and you came in to contact with Dr. Freeman's ministry and message somehow in Ohio and then ended up moving to Indiana. Can you share some of that?

of how all of that took place? Sure, that was really at the persuasion of my ex-husband's brother, Bill Schwann. He was, I don't know how he got involved, but he was getting the tapes, he was listening, and he was going to move there.

And he talked us into it. Of course, I didn't take much persuading for me. But we just ended up just picking up and moving. No notice, we found a place to live. Work was a bit of a challenge for my ex-husband, but it was just a kind of a spur of the moment thing, but he was very, very involved.

And so we were at the meetings almost every day, sometimes twice a day. And when you weren't actually physically in a meeting, you were listening to the tapes or reading the books and talking about them together.

So it was a very immersive experience, very much like making a new language in some senses. But that immersion is part of what has helped me sort all of this out. I kind of tried to deconstruct after we left.

It doesn't work once God's got a hold of you. That's it, you've done. But I ended up reluctantly kind of becoming a bit of a heresy hunter, I guess, and I'm sure that's how I stumbled across you guys.

The algorithm works to the advantage sometimes, you know? But now I'm retired. I have a passion for teaching hermeneutics to women. And the church is so biblically illiterate. It's a shame. And that's how groups like this end up being so persuasive is you got a little bit of passion and a little bit of knowledge.

And it's just enough to get you in trouble. And they take it and they run with it. And it's they control every aspect, not maliciously, I don't think. But it controls every aspect of your life, you know?

Who you marry, where you live, whether or not you have your children at home, which I did not, well, my last one I did, but that was accidental. And she came really quick. But you know, I was, again, I was a rebel.

I had my babies in the hospital. We went to doctors when we needed to. But you didn't talk about it. You did not talk about that. You didn't share it. So anyway, back to Bill, he got us involved.

And he then became kind of on the inside group with editing the tapes. And after we experienced the whole tent thing, And we were meeting in my brother-in-law's home and doing Bible studies there.

And there, for the first time, we were actually able to begin to talk about some of these core differences. Is faith really a literal physical substance? Is it only us, you know, if you leave faith assembly, you leave the faith, and I never believed that.

And so the word got back to leadership that we were actually talking about some of these things. And now I didn't even remember this until you brought it up, you know, but we got booted.

Actually, we didn't. My brother-in-law did, along with a bunch of other people. We were in Ohio that weekend, so I was not aware of what was happening, but because we dared to actually discuss theological things.

Not even to challenge a question, but just to openly discuss differences. And what does this really mean? And by that time, some of the families that we were meeting with were taken Greek, and it's like, wait a minute, that's not what that verb is.

That's not what that noun is. So in that sense, I guess we actually were a little persecuted.

John, you might not know this part of my story with Liz, but I can say this for everyone's benefit because John does, he does so many interviews with people from different streams of Brannemism.

And even maybe things that aren't totally connected to Brannemism, although for some reason, most of them seem like they are. Dr. Freeman and Faith Assembly definitely had a connection to Brannem. So when he gets a contact or an email from someone, if it concerns Dr. Freeman or Faith Assembly, then he normally copies me and forwards that to me.

So that's how I first came into contact with you. And then you and I traded some text messages, and then we ended up speaking on the phone, and I've told John, I think I've told him this story.

If I have, and I'll tell him this story for the first time now. But as we were talking, I knew you as Liz Shella because that's who you said you were. And I was just asking some about your story and your background, and the stories that you told me reminded me of someone that I knew or that I knew of.

And I was just racking my brain, thinking, how can this woman be different than this person I'm thinking of in the past? And what I'm thinking in the past up are for some newspaper articles, which I have sent you pictures of.

And so somewhere in our conversation, I said something about a woman named Elizabeth Schwand. on. And you said, that's me. And I was so surprised because I hadn't made the connection between your name now and your name there. And then as soon as you told me that, it was just like a flood of memories came back. And I said, you know, I know you, I know of you and your husband and your brother-in-law. And I remember your story. And so it's how interesting is this for you today, thinking that this was a June 27, 1981 Warsaw newspaper reporter

who interviewed you about your exit from faith assembly. And here we are 44 years later. And you're being interviewed again by two podcasters about your exit from faith assembly. That it's crazy. Like I said, we moved there when I was 1969 now, 50 years for crying out loud.

But it's very much a part of who I am as a person and not in a traumatic way. I'm very grateful that I'm someone that survived intact. We didn't lose a family member. We didn't suffer serious consequences in terms of, you know, health or anything like that. And the faith that I have today is very much grounded in what I went through to overcome all the false teaching and the shunning and, you know, repairing family relationships that I had abandoned because they weren't in the faith, you know. And the faith that I have now is real because I chose it, you know,

piece by piece, item by item. And it's made me into a very grateful person that I did survive. I'm not one of the folks who unfortunately end up very bitter or abandoning their faith.

If they ever had it to begin with, these groups just suck people in. I'm sure somebody has done the research, but I would be interested in finding out how many people who get involved in a group like that have a history of trauma. And it's very much like a refamily experience. If you didn't have a good one to begin with, it fills a lot of emptiness for people. And it's very, very hard to leave that behind, you know, relationships. That was hard. We have an upcoming podcast.

Lady was going to share her story. And I hijacked her story because she started talking about her work in the mental health profession. And that's a subject that fascinates me. So I like started opening up and asking her all kinds of questions. And that's one of the things that we discuss. So that'll be coming out soon.

I can't remember if it comes out before or after this one. I think it's before. But it is true. There are people who go through severe trauma and they're seeking something and they have this void that they need to fill.

We're usually a cult is appealing to a person trying to fill a void because they think it's an easy plug-in and they can suddenly fill this emptiness that they feel inside. And what they suddenly learn is it's like planting a virus inside of yourself, it begins to spread.

Now the void is literally there's something that you have trouble ripping it back out. But what's interesting to me is the way Chen O described, he was talking and then suddenly realized who you were.

Well, me talking to you, I have, this is the first time I've met you, I feel like I've known you for years just because of the things you're saying. You're talking about faith as the substance.

That was Brannemism 101. In fact, I can't remember if the title still has the name or if they've changed it. There are sermons that that is the theme, the title, the substance of the sermon.

And you can't really even call it a sermon because he's taking a thought and he's building a whole speech around the thought. So as children, we have a go around trying to substance things.

You know, if you think of the kids today, ironically, who are condemned by the offspring of this movement, it's like Harry Potter with his wand going to expectro patronum. We tried to do this with our faith.

And it was just wizardry. That's all it was. They were trying to teach wizardry. And I get labeled, even you use the label, Heresy Hunter, what's funny is, I, like you, don't see men and women who are getting into the ministry, who have no experience, no learning whatsoever as teaching any sort of sound theology.

They're winging it and get it building a following. Well, I see heresy hunters in much the same way. There are people who they escape something and they become a quote unquote, heresy hunter. And they too haven't become grounded, which is a huge, huge problem.

So I actually avoid that title. All I am trying to do is piece together all of the history that these groups have tried to cover up. But interestingly, when you do this, it becomes heresy hunting because they're covering up their past heresies that everybody does not even know exists.

That's very, very true. And I use that term in just. I like to think of it more as teaching people to have discernment. That's a lost art. And when I teach women's Bible studies, I inevitably get asked, what do you think about this person and what about that podcast and what's the, what do you think of this book?

Is this okay or not okay? And I always tell them, I can name names and often I do. And then I follow that up with, but I'd rather let's talk about what makes someone okay or not okay.

What are they teaching that's not okay? and you have so many people now rising up there, you know, so popular who have absolutely no theological grounding whatsoever, no training, no, it's frightening what's happening to the church now. They're just right for the picking. And I think going back to something you said in the earlier part of this interview, Liz, that it was Dr. Freeman's seminary training that was just a huge lure for so many people, where people like William Brannum and Kenneth Hagen and Kenneth Copeland and all these guys, you know, they had zero theological training and Hobart actually

had a lot, you know, he had gone through undergraduate, he'd gotten a master's degree at Southern Baptist and he'd gotten his THD, a doctorate in theology, not a PhD, a lot of people are preachers and professors with a PhD, but he had a doctorate in theology and Hebrew and Old Testament.

And when, so when you're young, as you were, as I was, I was 17 years old when I first heard Dr. Freeman and I visited the glory barn in August of 1975. So you were probably there, whatever I visited, when you're, when you were already naturally turned on by the Holy Spirit to a love of God, a love of His Word, a love of His church, you want to be with His people, you want to worship, you want to study Scripture, you want to grow, you know, you're not satisfied where you are, and then you have this offered to you, there is no way that you're going to turn away.

You are definitely going to pack up and move to the glory barn and get all of this wonderful knowledge. But as you've said with Hobart's use of Hebrews 111, and as John and I have talked, add nauseam on these podcasts, Hobart, even though he had some training, his training was in Hebrew and in Old Testament, it wasn't in systematic theology, it wasn't in apologetics, it wasn't in epistemology, the things that are important to me, it was not in apologetics, it was not in hermeneutics, you know, it was in a couple of technical areas, which is good,

and the classes that led to that should have given you a foundation in these other areas, but it seems like once Hobart came into contact with the charismatic movement, his real formal theological undergirding kind of went by the wayside, and he adopted the proof text mentality. As long as you've got a text that has a word or phrase that says basically what you need, then as John just said, it's not a sermon you preach from that, it's just a bunch of storytelling and you just make it whatever you want. And Hebrews 111, is a great example. I also way back then never thought that the writer of Hebrews meant that verse

as a formal definition of faith. I think it's just an illustration and he goes on to illustrate what he meant by that by all the Old Testament examples. But if I'm hearing you right, it was that verse and you and your husbands and your brother-in-laws interpretation of that, which differed with Hobards, that calls the division between you guys and them. Is that correct?

That's correct. Actually, my brother-in-law, Bill, was called into the Principles Office by Bruce,

which to this day find surprising. But I think what happened to Bruce was he was really trying too hard. He was trying too hard to be his father-in-law. And so he made some really poor choices. I don't hold that against him. But yeah, and it wasn't just Hebrews 111. It was a bunch of other things, the role of women, the idea about it being a sin to go to a doctor. And the other people that Hobart had previously been aligned with that he was now badmouthing. It's funny when I heard John say that Hobart distanced himself from people like Granham and Hagen. I bought their books in his

bookstore. But it was that push to become exclusive and we're in and we're special. And yeah, it was an ugly breakup, but it was more than time. It was a good time. That's what we needed to have happen. I don't know that we would have left as quickly as we did if it hadn't been for that confrontation. But yeah, if Hobart had not been a professor, former professor, and careerist theological seminary for crying out loud, I never would have gotten involved.

At least I tell myself I wouldn't have, but that was the appeal to me. He had something that I wanted, which was an education. And it's ironic, because I ended up going to seminary.

Got a master's degree in physical counseling and became a counselor, a mental health therapist. So I've been able to help a lot of people, women in particular, through a transition like that. I worked for a while in domestic violence, working with victims.

And I can't tell you how many times I heard, you know, well, I can't leave my husband, you know, my church will kick me out. Or, you know, I can't get divorced, divorce is a sin.

It's just a per- version of theology and religion and the confusion and the new age practices and the focus focus and the the focus on you know emotions emotion is the big thing it's not about theology you know theology will cripple you it's all about how you feel and what your experiences are it's just that's a recipe for disaster and it's it's becoming evident. Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transition through the latter reign charismatic and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation you can

learn this and more on William Brannum Historical Research's website William-Brannum.org. On the book's page of the website you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Steven Montgomery, John McKinnon and others with links to the paper, audio and digital versions of each book you can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements if you want to contribute to the cause you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top and as always be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching on behalf of William-Brannum Historical

Research we want to thank you for your support. Whenever you guys were I guess dismissed or disfellowshipped where were you living at that time and how did you find out about that and what did the next few weeks and months look like for you guys. Wow um we at that point were often driving back to Ohio to be with family um I had you know two little kids I ended up with three babies under three um and I was one of those people that was never going to have children so thank thank God I did but um we were in Ohio when that went down with Bill and Bruce and so we found out about

from my brother-in-law and quite frankly um I barely remember the next couple of years I had my third baby when we were in the process of moving back to Ohio um like I said at home she came in like an hour and a half um so it was it was a blur I was depressed I was anxious I had lost all of these friends all of these connections um and a sense of purpose um I was so used to being very involved um having my every waking moment taken up by church activities and you know hanging with

friends um I was lost I was just lost and um ended up in counseling myself Thankfully, but reaching out to the media was actually very therapeutic for me. It was validation. That is really good to hear.

I showed one article. This was the main article, a series of articles, John and Liz, that the Fort Wayne paper did. This was done in May of 1983, where the first time they entered, you left in 79.

Yes. And the first article was done in the Warsaw paper in June of 1981, where they interview you and your husband, and I don't know if your brother-in-law was involved in that interview, but they were looking for someone who was willing to talk.

And nobody at Faith Assembly was willing to talk. Even a lot of ex-faith assembly people, they still had this fear on them that if I say anything against Faith Assembly, I'm going to have a car wrecked, or I'm going to die of cancer or something.

But then two years later, a series of articles came out in the Fort Wayne newspaper. And they were the bombshell. They were the ones that were picked up by the national media. You can see here up at the top.

It says 52 deaths. Well, they became hundreds of deaths shortly thereafter. But that is where I saw that you were giving, and they quoted you more than the men. Maybe the men weren't being interviewed.

I don't know. But it did look like you were just free enough. I'm guessing by that time that's four years out of Faith Assembly free enough to feel like, why not just tell the truth?

Like it or leave it. This is what I experience. This is what I witness. These are the true reasons why I'm no longer there. It's not as though you were, as Faith Assembly adherents would say, oh, they're just out biting the hand that fed them, and they couldn't stand the Faith Walk.

They failed their Faith Trial. So now they're out criticized. They never could accept the fact that people could leave and did leave for some valid reasons. Now, I know you guys were kind of disfellowshipped, but I think you were probably headed out the door in the next few months or next year anyway.

So you're saying that even doing these newspaper interviews, irony of irony, because that's a sin to talk to the newspaper people, irony of ironies, that was therapeutic for you. It very much was. And I guess I'm a little, I have a bigger mouth, I guess, than the guys in the family did.

But also, my brother-in-law in particular had a hard time giving up the role of profit for Dr. Freeman. And we left before things got really crazy, before most of those deaths. happened, um, at least to my knowledge. Um, and it took me a while to sort out how I felt about myself, how I felt about God, how I thought, you know, I, I remember asking the question, I got, I, I thought you sent me there. What, what happened? Um, so I had to work through that, but I was, when we first left, I still saw Dr. Freeman as legitimate. Um, I got over that.

Um, I, again, I don't think he was a particularly malicious person. He was just a narcissist. Um, with some pretty serious health problems. And I, I think towards the end, untreated diabetes, you know, that will make someone psychotic. Um, and I think by that point, he pretty much was, uh, completely irrational. Um, but we, we left before things got really, really bad. Um, and I'm glad that we did. I don't know what, what would have happened if we'd stuck around, but yeah, the fall of, um, 79, uh, is when we made the break, but I was ready by that summer of 79.

I was done. Um, I was looking for excuses to not go, you know, you couldn't say, I don't feel well. You know, it's like, oh, you know, this baby. Um, and I said, I had two little kids too. So, but I, I was done. I was just done before we got dismissed. And we didn't get dismissed directly.

My brother-in-law did. And I think Bruce, I mean, we were at Bruce's house, you know.

I remember playing pong. That was a big deal. He had this, you know, equipment. Um, but I don't think he realized that my husband and his brother were family. Um, so he didn't target us.

He kicked out his, um, my husband's brother. Um, and so we, that was good timing for us. Where we done? I think the people who have exited faith assembly, as you guys have, and have spent some time processing the man, Hobart Freeman. I don't think any of us are willing to say, because I don't believe this to be true, that Hobart was a deliberately evil, wicked, manipulative, money, hungry, power, hungry person. I don't think he went into his ministry with any of that in his mind or in his personality. But I do agree with you. I think that he had some personality disorders

that are traceable all the way back to his early childhood. He definitely had physical illnesses, as we know, that trace back to young in his life. And when he heard this Kenneth Hagen name and claim it message, I just think he thought he had found heaven on earth that I can get rid of my heart condition, I can get rid of my polio and if you can great then be about your business and do it. But we know that none of that ever happened for him. And so to continue to hold on to that for years and years in spite of the reality and then to begin to double

down on everything and against everyone who doesn't see it the way you see it to your point is a sign of someone with some serious physical and mental health issues. I also want to go back and focus on something that you said because it might get missed and that's for me this is the one of the more significant things. You mentioned the diabetes and how that affects the personality of the person. I'm diabetic so I understand everything that you're saying people who aren't diabetic might miss that entirely. But in the Brannum family I've been told and I think if I remember

correctly there are two or more birth certificates that confirm it diabetes ran in the Brannum family as well. And for somebody who doesn't understand the disease whenever your blood sugar elevates your blood thickens and as the blood is flowing through the brain it's not flowing correctly through the brain because it is thicker. And unless you treat this and basically you have syrup running through your veins and unless you treat this it does very weird thanks to your head. I'm fortunate that I was out of this movement whenever my onset happened and I was with the doctors at the point

in which they told me now it's time for you to go on this stuff. It was an instant change. My outlook on life changed. I remember I was getting moody and even probably some of the videos. I don't know if people caught onto it but my mood had significantly declined until I was able to get onto the medicine and it fixed this. So when I look back at Brannum's ramblings and watch how moody he was in the rambling they turned into rants and ironically when he would get angry and go through these rants he would just everything from women using you know washing machines

to loose-weight shoes and everywhere in between. You can go to my website and you can type in rules and you can see some of these things. They're not really rules. They're mostly him just very very distraught and it's all coming as like diarrhea the brain and a constipation of the brain and diarrhea of the mouth. And I look at Hobart towards the end of his life I see the same kind of thing.

So I think what you said with diabetes may have more of an impact even than anything else we've examined. Well it's ironic because my ex-husband is Amin and nursing home with dementia with several strokes because of untreated diabetes. So yeah it's tragic and it just completely changes someone's personality and you know looking back I can I can see again especially after we left the barn that's when I started noticing changes he was at the grandfatherly type anymore he was angry he was bitter he was hostile and when we left he was really hostile like I said he was turning on his own

leaders at that point yes I've given a quote somewhere John in our interviews in one of his later messages he's talking about church discipline and the fact that he doesn't play favorites and he said I would even he didn't use a word kick out it's I think X can mean I think it was put out I would put out even my wife and daughter if they are contrary to the word of God and you know what Christian minister what pastor would ever stand up there and say that about your your lovely dear wife you know maybe your daughter but not your wife

you don't make comments like that that is just you know that is a crow magnon the andrathal comment for anybody to make and when you hear that you know something is not right with this with this man he is angry he's angry things are not working out in his life things are not working out in the church he's got critics they're abounding he's got people dying he the medias after him the state legislatures after him and rather than humble himself there was an alternative he could humble himself and seek God and turn his face to God and God would have worked everything

out for him in his life that was that was an alternative he had but he he chose to go even harder make things as hard as he possibly could for people and just make him hard on himself and it's and it's too bad he made that choice yeah it is and you know based on what you said about it's like the autopsy results and the kind of pain he must have been in I ended my career actually at the Cleveland Clinic working with chronic pain patients and pain changes people and I'm sure that that had an effect on him as well it just it saps you

of your personality and your energy and so I can imagine when he had all of this not that I'm making excuses for because there is no excuse all of these things bombarding him on all sides he must have been very desperate lonely and John and I have said the same thing Liz and we're not trying to make excuses but we are trying to process what happened and what went wrong and I think this is part of it I wasn't a member I was never a member of the glory barner faith assembly so I wasn't there as the other people were but last summer I had a

a pull of good conversations on the phone with Jerry Irvin, who was, you know, Dr. Freeman's main song leader. So he saw Dr. Freeman all the time, and not much outside of church, no one saw him outside of church except June, but at least he had dealings with him before and after services because he was the main worship leader.

And Jerry told me, because I asked Jerry, it's a Jerry. What was Hobart like there at the end? And he said, Hobart was really angry all the time. And even Jerry said, he said, I think he was mad because I think he was hurting.

He said, he said, I think he was in pain and I think he was in pain because of his diabetes. So he was physically not feeling well and that began to affect him mentally.

And you know, he had taken this lived I sink or swim. I'm going to trust him kind of approach. He always quoted Joe, though he slain me yet, well, I trust him. That was a favorite verse to use for you don't go to the doctors, even down to death store.

You keep believing God. And whenever you take that approach, you know, guess what? You've painted your whole room and backing up the whole time and now you're in a corner and you can't, you can't get out of the room.

One time that I was there, I visited occasionally, you know, once a year, twice a year, skip a year. But somewhere in the early 80s, 81 or 82 or 83, I was in line as other people were to get to talk to Hobart after a message.

There was always a long line to talk to him and and I saw him. I had not, because I wasn't a member, I didn't get to experience things like this. So it was new and shocking to me.

But I saw him scream or yell at someone to do this or don't do that. I don't even remember what it was because it caught me by surprise. I just was expecting a pastor, a Christian minister to be loving and kind and patient.

There's our qualifications required in the Christian minister and is it difficult? Sure, it's difficult, but that's part of the calling. You don't get to yell and holler at someone when you get mad. But he did and it was a big red flag to me.

That was something that I saw that I didn't have to base on second hand, third hand, tenth hand report. I saw myself and I wondered if I saw that. And if it happened right now, is this the only time that has ever happened?

And according to Jerry, it wasn't because he would be upset with Jerry over things. And it's like the frog and the warm water and the pot on the stove. It just slowly... It increases the temperature in your life, and you don't recognize what's happening around you.

And I think that was true for so many people there. I'm curious after you began working as a counselor, did you come in contact with several other people who had been in cults and were re-victimized?

Not a lot. More what I saw was, it was a Christian practice that I worked at when I was in private practice. And I worked with a lot of women who just, they were bored with their lives.

And it was this mindset, they were conservatives, and it was the mindset of, you know, I'm supposed to just hang out at home and take care of the house and have babies. And I would always challenge that.

Where's that coming from? So even the subtle things, I'm a complimentarian. So I'm not one of the fringe people, but I would always challenge them. Where are you getting that? Show me chapter in verse.

Where are you getting that? And it just became a passion of mine to challenge women to have a genuine faith.

And that was actually part of my ministry for a number of years. Left private practice and went on to the clinic, but it's not even the cult thinking. It's the small subtleties of just being in a certain kind of mindset.

And I see that a lot now with all this emotional stuff. You know, I'm gonna sit here in this room until I hear from God. Well, you're gonna be there a long time. Good luck.

Yeah. You wanna hear from God and read your Bible. Well, if you couldn't tell, I was very much holding back. And if you see the other one, and again, I think it comes out before this where the lady mentioned that she was dealing with counseling and mental health.

I totally hijacked her podcast. I was trying very hard not to hijack this one, but I did have that question because one of the problems that exists when you're in a cult is because, like I said, you're trying to fill this void.

If you leave the cult and you're able to break away, now you have, again, a void that you have to fill inside of you. And many people sadly get re-victimized into other groups. So it was just my own curiosity.

I didn't mean to distract. But anyway, this has been great fun. Channel, do you have anything else? Well, I just wanted to say Liz, I really appreciate connecting with you after first hearing of you 44 years ago.

I never dreamed that one of these X-Fate assembly people from 44 years ago would actually be on our podcast. And I just appreciate where you are in your life now, that you, you know.

You went to seminary, you've really come to understand that it is all about a proper hermeneutic, and God does speak to us, but He does speak to us through His word, and that's the imperative for all of us.

We really do need to read into study God's word. Well, thank you so much again for doing this. Well, John and Shana, thanks for having me on and let me share my story. I hope it's encouraging to somebody out there who might be struggling to know that, you can get through this and come out stronger on the other side, so take care, guys.

If you've enjoyed our show and you want to share your story, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at www.William-Branum.org. For more about the dark side of the new Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Automal.

You can find us at www.William-Branum.org. You can find us at www.William-Branum.org.

You can find us at www.William-Branum.org.