Deliverance Ministry: Modern Salem Witch Trials

Music Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Brandham Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Brandham Historical Research at William-brandham.org and with me I have my very special guest, Audrey Goff, a deliverance cult survivor.

Audrey, it's good to talk to you and to talk to yet another deliverance cult survivor. There have been quite a few of these and it just fascinates me to talk to people who are in this because I grew up in this world where even comic books were disallowed.

We had this very, very rigid set of rules and while the other kids are playing sorcerers and goblins and this kind of thing, I wasn't allowed because the demon might get you. And then to find out there's this whole world of adults that are playing hobbits and goblins and all kinds of demonic weirdness.

It's really odd to me and I've got, I think I've shared on the on the podcast, I've got a handbook of a deliverance minister with all the instructions that they go through and it's like, if you have the hiccups, you have this particular demon and it really reminds me of like the old Dungeons and Dragons game.

You go conquer this demon that of the hiccups and I just drank water from my hiccups so it's a little bit different in the real world. But anyway, with that, thank you for joining.

Maybe you could tell everybody a little bit about yourself. Okay, first of all, just thank you so much for inviting me on here. It's an honor to be able to share my story and really give God glory for what he's done because it's all because of him that my family and I got out.

So yeah, I don't know. I, at home school, I have four children and I married my husband and I just celebrated 20 years of marriage and our marriage is doing great, which is like a miracle considering we were under a pastor who was pretty much trying to drive wedges between us.

Almost the whole time that we were members at his church. So the fact that we came out on the other end stronger is only God that can do that. So, but yeah, I feel like at this point in my journey looking back at the several years leading up to and then going into this deliverance church and then coming out to where I am now, I really feel like this is just a story of God, getting a hold of my heart.

And for some reason, I had to go into a cult for five years to come out. And I can't explain it, but his ways are greater than our ways and higher than our ways.

And I don't understand it, but on this side of it, I can look back and I can see where he's taken me and having to do with just knowing his love for me that it's like he just wanted to show me how much he loves me.

And it's just this amazing feeling that I wouldn't change for anything. So. You know, you said something right there that nobody has yet said on the podcast. And it is significant. It's a really big deal.

The wedges between us, the spousal wedges between the partners. This is a big deal. I have seen so in the Brandham cult, it was the same thing. Pretty much anything that is based off of this deliverance ministry has it.

Because if you have a person who is trying to find demons where there aren't any, suddenly anybody who does anything that makes him uncomfortable, he, him being the minister, sometimes it's a female minister.

But if it makes them slightly uncomfortable, they say, oh, that's a demon. And usually it comes down to personal preferences or opinions, but they're looking for demons under rocks that have no demons. And those rocks often are spouses.

So they'll start looking at something the spouse is doing. So she's possessed. She's got a demon. You need to watch her brother. You need to keep her in line. In the Brandham cults in the years gone by, the women were very, very subordinate, sometimes spanked, et cetera.

I have heard stories of this because the wedge between them and that wedge gets deeper and deeper and deeper, the longer time goes if the, if, whichever spouse, either the male or female is a little bit stubborn, and they'll say, no, this is not sin, what I'm doing.

This is your opinion versus my opinion. If they're stubborn about this, well, that demon gets bigger and bigger. And I have, I have had people in the support groups tell me that the minister had actually drove the wedge so hard that it caused a divorce and a separation, which is very, very painful for people in, in the Brandham religion because you weren't allowed to remarry after you separated.

So they would drive that wedge to separation and then the two parties are just split. So I, sorry to hijack your story, but that's a big deal and it's never been brought up yet.

Yeah, and just listening to you talk about it, I, it just reminds me, as I've been listening to some of your videos and some of your shows here, and hearing more about some of the Brandham influenced institutions out there.

And the common things that they did, I feel like the church that I was a part of was just really different. in a lot of ways than a lot of the things that you talked about, like even what you're saying now about the women being subordinate and that being a main focus in the church that we were at, it was very empowering of women.

And to the point where it's almost, it was almost like, it's very hard to parse it out because it's like it's good in one way. Like, yes, women are just as valuable as men.

So there was that aspect where it's like, oh yeah, all of this time in my Christian upbringing, I've had this kind of subordination kind of attitude. And so in a way, it's like it was good, but then it's like it tipped over too far into like, now like women, I don't know, like you might question like what he was really doing with women because it was driving the men away, what he, how he was advising us, I guess.

And then at one point, he had like a text group with just all the women in the church and him, like a group text, you know, and then, so like all the husbands are just, you know, they're just like in rebellion because they're not submitting really to him is what the problem was.

Like if you aren't going to submit to him, so like he was teaching the women to not submit to their husbands necessarily or be equal with them, but submit to him. So it was very perverted in that way.

It was a complete like hijacking of the marital role and the whole picture of the church is really in marriage, but he was making it like, he's the one that you're submitting to. While telling you, you don't need to submit, you know, but it was a very confusing, oh my gosh, confusing time, a lot to sort through.

Like seriously coming out of this, I've just been like, word, you have to help me parse through these things because, you know, for me coming into this, and I guess I could share a little bit about how I even got into this church.

It was very much, you know, at first I was just like living my life, you know, I was like building my business online and I'm like working it, I'm ambitious, I've got goals, I'm living my life and I love Jesus, but like I've got my own plan and I'm doing this.

And it's like God like just took me and like moved me over here and now I'm like walking this way. Okay, like I'm not doing that. Like he literally took my desire away from me.

Like, you know, God gives us the desires of our heart and it's like he took that away from me and I'm just like, I don't, why am I not wanting to work my business anymore?

And so like this was the beginning of him really, like getting a hold of my... my my heart and but it was a long journey from there but um and anyway so around that time is when he and this is kind of part of my story that i feel like is is just it's not black and white it's not yes or no it's like i don't really know it god is like not inside a box right and so um i during this time when god put me on this track i start like researching things and i start

because i'm like very much a researcher and i'm very like want to understand things if i start it's like if i start learning about something i will peel it open like and keep going and until i understand it as thoroughly as i can and so i started doing that with like i don't know weird stuff like i started learning about secret societies and like all this like weird things you know conspiracies and things like that and i'm like oh my gosh like there's so many lies that i or things that i was totally unaware of as a Christian and it was very like

convicting for me because i realized satan was real so this is the whole thing with like the deliverance ministry it's like okay that was like really bad like there were bad things that happened there but there was like a lot that happened in my life before i even got there and it was like god showing me like we know it's undeniable there is a spiritual battle happening okay so like what what do we do with that and it's like god wanted me to learn about like okay this is but but because he is over all of that it's like but i don't know he i was learning about

all this stuff what do i do with this and um and during that time i wasn't working anymore um and um i was i was a group leader at this bible study called bsf it's called bible study fellowship i don't know if you've ever heard of it before no it's a big like international anyway thing it's they're they're pretty solid i think now looking back at everything i'm like okay that was actually pretty good um but i was a group leader so the the way their structure is is you have a group a small group and you discuss the bible study and then everybody goes to a big lecture

and they hear a lecture from a woman who's gonna teach on the subject and um i was the year was ending and i was not going to come back to that study and the leaders came to me and said hey we have prayed and we want you to be a substitute teach it the the lecturer a substitute lecturer and i was like whoa i didn't really think i was a very good group leader like and you want me to like be this like i don't oh my gosh so this was the first time in my life this is the reason i'm praying i'm

and sharing this is because this was the first time in my life that I really like submitted to the Lord and was like, okay, Lord, what do you want me to do? Because being a lecturer sounds like a challenge that the old me would be like, yeah, I'm going to do that, you know? And so anyway, I basically prayed and I got a clear no. And these people were like, okay, that's great, you prayed. And so another reason I bring this up is they responded so great to me saying, you know, I prayed and I'm not going

along with your, you know, like what you think that I should say. And they handled it really well. And that contrast so greatly with like this church that we were in, it's like if you go against anything that they say, you, something's wrong with you. Like they want you so badly to be led of the Holy Spirit and they really teach, it's like the teachings that they were giving at my church were, some of them were very, very good teachings. And if you actually listen to them and apply them, you would basically be taught out of their own church because at some point you're

going to butt heads with them. So that's, it's kind of like this weird thing where I'm like, how, how do you reconcile the fact that you want us to use critical thinking and you want us to use seek the Lord on our own and all these things. And you want us to be who God created us to be.

Like we would literally be like yelled at from the podium like, you're not living the life God wanted you to live. You know, you're not being who God want. Like just all this like, and you're just like, oh my gosh, I'm not, what am I not doing? You know, and so, but if you actually took that and were like, okay, Lord, who do you want me to be? Like it could have a good outcome, you know.

But then eventually you're going to be led out of that church because God's going to lead you out because you're going to be led of him. So anyway, eventually something happened in my home where a family member did something and it was very much like we could not explain what happened what this person just did. It was like a, it was like a, it was an outburst. It was what I would, I would still call today like a demonic manifestation. Like, and this is the thing where I'm like, I don't know, you know, some people think Christians can't have demons. Some people think they can,

obviously deliverance people think they can. How about I just say, you know what, I'm open to it? Like, I don't know, like I'm not going to say no, and I'm not going to say yes, like I'm just like, okay, if something happens that I can't explain, I'm open to this possibility. But at that point, when it happened, I had no context for what it was that we just witnessed.

is what we just experienced. And so of course me, I go and I start researching. I don't even know what I looked at, but I'm like trying to figure out what in the world this was, what happened.

And I found these two moms on YouTube, and they were interviewing this pastor. And they were talking about demons, and I was like, oh my gosh, I think this is what that was. And I was just, I felt like this is the answer.

And that was the pastor that we ended up joining his church.

There's so much to unpack there. So if you've read Dr. Stephen Hasen's book, Combat and Cult Mind Control, one of the things that he talks about is the way in which a cult will get people involved because if they can get them involved and then overextend their time and their energy will, their guard goes down, their critical thinking goes down.

And that's just one aspect of the critical thinking going down. The other thing that you were talking about is interestingly it all ties together, the secret societies, when people leave these types of groups, especially the deliverance ministry, you are looking for a demon everywhere.

And I'm not making this up. If you've never been in this, you are literally looking for a demon if somebody stealing your parking spot, if somebody gets a parking spot before you, that demon was out to get you.

That's the world that this is. I have witnessed this. I've been in the car like this. There are people who are looking for demons when they don't exist. Now, I'm going to separate that from the biblical version of a demon.

I'm talking about, I'm walking through my room and I stumped my toe. Well, that demon got me, it got my toe. That's how ridiculous it gets. Well, when you leave something like this and you're in that mindset, then you suddenly begin to wonder wait a minute, that was a cult I was in.

This was purely evil. What if the devil was trying to get us through that? And you start looking into secret societies because you start to think, well, wait a minute. What if it's not just the minister?

What if it's bigger than this? What if it's big? And I have talked to so many people in the support groups that the first place they had, interestingly, is not towards the Bible to reread and understand what it says.

They'll go to the masons. They'll go to the secret societies, free masonry, all of this stuff, and try to understand it so that they can somehow link what they came from to the secret societies.

And I don't, I don't dissuade it. People ask me questions about it and I just say, well, you can't prove any of it. So you're welcome to go look, but they don't really let you access the records.

However, it is a mindset that I think can be with anything if you can let your mind sort of spin out of control in that direction. It can be very unhealthy and it'll lead people to places they don't want to go.

So that's one aspect of things that you have going on. But the other thing that you mentioned, which is also just as important, which also I don't know that I've talked about in the podcast, the yelling at people from the pulpit.

So they get you to come into the building, they get your guard down, they want you to turn off critical thinking. Sometimes the atmosphere of the church service itself is designed to get your guards down.

So you really don't critically think in these types of environments. Well, during the course of the sermon, the minister starts yelling at you and forcibly, just verbally attacking this, that, and the other. Well, mentally, what happens when you're in that type of environment?

Your mind goes back to the place that you were when your child, when your parents were upset. So you really shut off critical thinking. You become more and more submission. And what it does eventually is, if they can get you to that level where they're beating you down like a, like a stepchild that's being verbally abused, well, they can take full control of your mind.

And that's whether they know they're doing it willingly, or whether they've learned this by design, I don't know. But this is a horrific thing that they're doing to the people. That is totally what we had going on at our church.

Absolutely. Yes, yes. And, you know, I, it was very familiar to me, actually, because just, you know, part of my, my story is, you know, I grew up in an alcoholic home and dysfunction.

And, you know, these things were that, so like my nervous system was very, like, oh, this, I know how to handle this, like shut down. You know, and, and just disengage and do whatever you can to at least, at least it's not being directed at you.

Because sometimes it was like, well, we'd be being yelled at, but they'd be yelling at us about like someone else and what they did. But we'd be like getting all the wrath. Like that person was gone.

They're not even at the church anymore. Like, you know, but we're receiving all the, the, you know, wrath from whatever they did. You know, and so that again, it's, you're right. Totally, like, shuts you down.

It is a form of mind control. That is absolutely what they were doing. And, um, and the thing is though, they would preach on mind control and like, you know, teach about it. And then there's like this huge blind spot that like, this is what's happening in our church, you know, and, but that's, that's how effective it is.

Really. Yeah. So another little just piece of like my journey coming into this church was as, you know, I'm just learning things. I'm reading. I'm like, like devouring my body. I'm which I hadn't really done a lot of like previously in my Christian walk and but I'm also doing all this research and one of the things that God did was He brought some people into my life who I Became friends with and I thought they were Christian and I was like, oh, yeah, these Christian people and like, but there was something like a little Off about them, but they would say some of the same words

But I just was like, what is this? It's just a little different, you know, and so of course I'm like, Lord, what is that? And I just start researching some like, what do they believe?

Because I've always also been fascinated with like cults and like different religions and things like that just to learn about it, but So maybe God was just trying to give me a good lesson on what cults really are like No, but I so basically I found out like all these people are new age like okay, and new age isn't really new It's old and like all this stuff and like the origins of it and all the Nosticism and the divine feminine and like just all these things right Christ consciousness and all these things and I was like

Oh my gosh these people are not Christian That was mind blowing to meet up to find out that there is like this this side of like you know Basically Satan's kingdom that is it looks good because it like it looks It looks good. It's the light. It's the false light, you know But anyway, so I had this kind of Base knowledge which the NAR is is part of this whole new age system really I mean, it's really new age with a Christian stamp on it which I Had kind of learned about the NAR before, but I didn't go that deep with it. I was like, okay

They're they're doing things that I disagree with you know, I They're slaying in the spirit. They're having manifestations that I would they could call it a manifestation of the Holy Spirit and to me That's how a demon would manifest, you know

So there were some things and our church the church that we were at would also say these things okay and but your video on One of the videos that you did with somebody on Derek Prince where you talked about how these fractures of these churches They all say each other does things wrong. Yeah, you know, and that's where I was like oh my god So even though the church that I went to was it was really small very insignificant compared to like some of the things that some of the Churches that you've you know talked about on here

They still claim like like I don't know not Descendancy maybe but like kind of they claim kind of Derek Prince as like first generation Deliverance and then it's like my pastor after that, you know, but so like in the 60s There were these men is what they'd say like Lester Somerall Frank Hammond Derek Prince wins, sorry, win-worthy, that they had this, that God put this call out, you know, basically, who's going to take up deliverance, you know, for my people? And anyway, so, and win-worthy was my pastor's pastor. And so that's kind of how these connections, but Derek Prince is in

there somewhere, like what they always said that Derek Prince was like religious. Yeah. You know, whatever that means for them coming from them. You know, it's odd. I get a cue. In fact, I just heard this the other day. I get a cue because all of these characters, they're working, maybe not working directly together, but they're building on each other's theology. I think that's the better way to put it. And so there's this weird cross-pollination that happens among a bunch of men and women who are literally competitors. And that's why they want to denounce the other guy. They want to become

bigger than the other guy. And so in many cases, what happens is they're cross-pollinating. They hear of the other doctrines. Well, they start using it. And so you can't really tell the origins of where the doctrines came from. Derek Prince is one of these guys. Everybody says he was the greatest thing since sliced bread to some of the people. And you can see it in the comments.

But he's networking with a bunch of people who are already doing exactly what he's doing. In fact, William Brannum, if you heard the same podcast, William Brannum and Gordon Lindsay were setting up schools to help train this deliverance thing. So they were literally training the masses to do exactly what he was doing. Well, he's the one who rose up and become big enough to become more famous than the others, I guess. But they're all doing the same thing. And then what happens is because of the new age ideas that are being disseminated among the group through various means,

you know, William Brannum went to spiritual camps, spiritual list camps. And he's learning weird things in the spiritual list camps. Laterane actually began with this idea that you could metaphysics. You could basically focus your mind and you could cause things to move in the room.

And I've seen testimonies where William Brannum came and taught others to move things with their minds. Now, whether you believe this actually happened or not, I don't know, I don't, I technically just, I discount the whole thing. But there's this group of people that are trying it, I think, is the way to say it. So metaphysics is not a Christian thing. This is not something that you read about in the Bible. But the men are doing it. And then that built, because of the cross-pollination of doctrines, that builds into other doctrines based off of the metaphysics. So where you end up is,

you can have this guy over here in this part of the country who's never heard of this guy over here in the other part of the country, both teaching the same thing because that apostolic network was basically teaching them.

through the cross-pollination of ideas, and that's the power of the NAR. You've got all of these people who have very similar frameworks of theology that is so anti-biblical that it doesn't even look like Christianity, but they're all networked, and the networks are supporting them and lifting them up where they sound to the unknowing people as though they're Christian. And the only way to get rid of this is for the unknowing people to start reading their Bibles and see that, you know, that's not the God of the Bible.

Yeah, and, you know, to your point, you know, people who, you know, love, they love Derek Prince, and they love, you know, some of these people, and, you know, it's like the best counterfeit has some good in it. The best counterfeit is going to have some truth.

And so I, like, yes, of course, just like the church that I just left, there were good things there. There were good teachings. I, I did receive deliverance. I know I got deliverance. I, my life has changed, you know, since coming into there and then being, and there were good things, but that doesn't make, that doesn't mean it's all good. Like it's, you're going to eat the whole like sandwich. It's like the truth on the, the bread is truth, and then like it's like a lie in here, and you're eating all of it.

And so, I don't know, I just, it's like I've just come to this place where I started seeing that they don't really believe what they, what they themselves preach. Like they really would preach on the sovereignty of God, and, you know, and then I saw in practice that they didn't really believe that because in my mind, if we believe God is sovereign, and then they would always say, oh, well, God, God, meters out your deliverance, like God's in control of your deliverance, right? But then they'd get, like if someone left the church, then, oh my gosh, they are now outside God's will. Like they've, they've, somehow they've managed to get themselves

outside God's will. They've like phoned their shipwrecked. Somehow this has happened. And, you know, because they're not tied to the helm of deliverance for the rest of their life, you know, where I'm reflecting on all this, and I'm like, well, wait a minute. Okay, if God's in control of our deliverance, if he's sovereign, you know, Jesus, you know, it is the burden of the Lord to set his people free so that they can serve him, you know, like that is a thing. Then why don't we just be happy that we were able to minister to these people while they were here, and then let them go and bless them on their way? Like why does, why does it have to be a thing that when they leave,

it's like now we hear messages for the next two years on all the mistakes that they made and how horrible they were. And oh, by the way, they're probably witches and, you know, They're they were tears. They were never of us because they've gone out from us So they were actually never they were never you know, and it's like why do we have to speak of them that way?

If God is sovereign over all of this, I mean, you know, God is gonna have his will done in your life and

There is not a demon in the whole Satan's kingdom that is going to keep him from being able to do that So whether you're in a deliverance church or not getting actual deliverance God will make sure that you are to the point where you can carry out what he has purpose for you in your life You know, and so that's like that's one of the things that can give us peace as Christians that God is in control and that he you know Like so all of these things just started to like kind of it was like the cognitive dissonance in my mind

And I just kept seeing it. I was just like oh my gosh like I can't why why do they say these things? Why you know and then my heart started being broken for the people that had left and The things that were said about them that I believed that were just so awful and terrible and like not true, you know, and I just had to repent and Like that's the work of the Holy Spirit He was just gently like hey, this was not right, you know, and it's like oh my gosh, right, but but something had to crack through

that Mind control for me and what that was was a at a workshop in September of 2024 There was a prophecy given by our church's prophet who is the pastor's wife and

that prophecy just I was like something like it kicked something off in me. Okay, so this was like five years After I had like done all this research on my own right I had joined the church and I was on my deliverance journey and I kind of put that stuff aside So I'm just trying to focus on my my heart and myself and with the Lord and But this something happened with this with this prophecy and I was like something's not right And I didn't know what it was, but I started researching the NAR again

I was like why am I researching the NAR? I don't know why but I was just like going all in on it and learning I learned about the manifest sons of God and the sacred purge and like all the new age just like Alice Bailey Jane Leade

All these connections even going back to the Jesuits where they like wanted the charismatic

Movement to start anyway just was finding out all of this stuff. And I don't know why I'm researching this because I'm like, okay, I feel like this has something to do with this prophecy.

And so I'm sending my pastor like, hey, I found all this stuff out. Like this is crazy, right? Like there's a group of people out there and they're like actually a pretty big group of people now.

Like there in churches have their doctrine, they don't even realize it, you know, and like all this stuff. And he didn't, he just what he basically said, I'm too black and white. All of my mind, my brain isn't working.

Like I need deliverance. I'm, my demons are preventing me from being able to think. And I'm, you know, my alcoholic patterns are just, those demons are just really showing right now. And I just need to just get deliverance, sit down and stop researching this stuff.

And so time goes on and I found out that the source of this prophecy that she gave was actually a NAR prophet. Wow. Mario Marillo, I don't know. Yeah. And I found online his, like he had given this prophecy and her prophecy that she gave to us was verbatim, what he had said.

And I was like, oh my gosh. Like this is why, and I'm thinking, oh my gosh, this is why I'm researching the NAR. Like it's not, I'm not being like two black and white or whatever my pastor is saying.

Like I was being led of the spirit to research something that was extremely relevant to what was happening in our church, right? And so I send this to my pastor. I was like, hey, oh my gosh, like here's the link.

This was your wife's message. Here it is right here. And this guy is a NAR guy. I'm like, are you, like do you see what's happening? Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation?

You can learn this and more on William Brannum Historical Research's website, William-Brannum.org. On the book's page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.

You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top.

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So I want to talk so badly about the copying and plagiarizing of prophecies because that's a common thing that happens. However, you've brought up point number three that I've never talked about. I'm surprised that I have not. You brought up the term which when you're talking about how they're labeling other people, this is not unique to these cults. This goes far beyond these cults. But if you study the deliverance ministries, how they function and how they operate, and you are actually familiar with history and you understand what happened at the Salem Witch Trials, the two are exactly the same. There were people, mostly women who were getting into

anxiety attacks or states of euphoria where they were eventually coming down with fits and out bursts and convulsions and whatnot. Well, the understanding of mental health back then was very, very low. So they started saying, well, these people have demons. We need to cast out the demons from these ladies. And one of them had not been attending church. Well, she's an outsider. She's outside of God's will. I mean, that's the phrase that I'm laughing because it was commonly used in the Brannum circles, but it appears to have been far beyond this. So you have people who are

literally claiming that they can see a demon in a person and they're calling it a witch. They're different forms of witchcraft, et cetera. And what happened was it became the term witch hunt. They started going through from person to person trying to see if they could detect these demons, much like the deliverance people. So if you go to a deliverance service and you come with any sort of sickness, well, that's a demon. If you come with, I said it before, if you come with the hiccups, that's a demon. It's unbelievable. And so they're doing this in the Salem Witch Trials and they

realized that their power to cast out the demons is not good enough. We need to burn the devil out of them. And so eventually it turned into, I think there was something like, if I remember correctly, it was like 200 people were accused of having this possession, this evil possession.

I think it was maybe in the 20s were executed, but obviously they were not witches. And you know, I'll get feedback for that. So I'll qualify that statement. Most of the people who were either executed or accused were regular church members that were attending churches who were Christians who were being accused, but they had a mental health like it turned into this mental health crisis because people were breaking out in convulsions, etc.

There's a lot of anxiety, and anxiety was probably fueling a lot of it. So if you compare what happened historically there, now compare it to what's happening in deliverance ministries now, they're going and pointing fingers at people saying they have, you have this demon possession, you sister have the hiccups, that's a devil it's going to get out of you.

And I mentioned those wedges that are drawn between the two people. If you're married to a spouse that has a demon, oh my gosh, I don't want to be married to a spouse that has a demon.

So people start thinking in ways that they should never be thinking. And it turns into a witch hunt. So historically, it's basically history repeating itself into this thing. Now combine that with what you just said about the power of the NAR.

All of these networks, they're all doing the same thing. When news begins to spread through these networks, oh my gosh, this church, they have several demons. What's called our most famous demon hunter, the deliverance minister and they bring him in.

I have no doubt that's how Derek Prince got his fame. He started being the one that they were asking to come cast the demons out of the churches. And it turns into the Salem witch trials, but on a much, much more national scale.

And that's what's happening here. Yeah, totally. It's really sad too because I know, like if any of the members of the church, I was just at, if they were to see this video and see me having a conversation like this, I just know they would say, oh, Audrey, the veil has just come back over her eyes.

She is just for questioning things and just not blindly, like, okay, can we just talk about this stuff? You know, like when you're in there, you can't, you can't. You can't really question it because like, questions are allowed to a certain extent.

But once you, there's like a line that you can cross. And it mainly has to do with if there are any problems with the way things are being taught or the type of thing being taught.

Like if you can prove that, hey, this is, is that really what the Bible says? You know, then you're just, oh, you're just being religious. Oh, your lawyer's spirits are really, you know, you got to get deliverance and they don't actually address what you're bringing up, you know, they just gaslight you.

They're just like, gaslight you and then you don't even know if, and then like I, it was confusing for me when it was happening to me because that's what my pastor did to me where when I was bringing, when I even said, here is her message right here.

This is the NAR message that she gave. And he just was like, he said, Audrey, we are not in the NAR. And I was like, I know, I mean, I thought, I was like, yeah, you're not getting what I'm saying.

I'm at this point, I'm thinking, oh my gosh, they're... They're listening to people and being influenced by people who are in the now that I'm out and I've had more time to think about it. I'm like they're like in it. Like they're like more they're more so in it. But anyway, he just he went back to I really just think it's your black and white thinking, Audrey, you really got a work on that, you know, and it just and doesn't address. I'm like, yeah, but what about this prophecy? Like if I had known this was her source, I would have

run for the hills and not even given it another thought. Like we are to mark these people and avoid them and, you know, like these false prophets. And so it's like it's not like they're not just they're not just fellow sheep with bad with like some bad doctrine. Like they're wolves in sheep's clothing. Like it's it's not just like there are brothers and sisters and they're just a little deceived, you know, when I was talking about the witch trial, I think I even said it in correctly because it's so commonly said that the women were burned at the

stake. That's actually not what happened in Salem that did happen I think in Europe. But in the United States, I don't think there was a single burning if I remember correctly. What happened was there were a few that were executed and there were some who died who were kept captive and they were just kept separate from the other people. I think maybe in a jail or something like this, they were branded essentially. And there were people who were treated so poorly that they died while imprisoned. Well, if you consider the way that the cult treats the people who

question the people who, you know, if you engage any critical thinking at all, well, that's a demon. That's spiritual possession. And so what they do is they label people and they brand them just like they do in the witch trials. And so you become, even mentally, you become isolated from the other people, you're like, oh, my gosh, do I really have a demon? And the other people who aren't aware, they're like, well, he says that this person has a demon. I need to stay clear of this person. And so it causes this separation that's, it's even worse than an

almost shunning. And an almost shunning, there is no, I guess there are some cases where there are, but I have seen some cases where the almost are shunning people. And it's just because they want to go live out in the world. They don't associate this with a demon possession. They just associate this with rebellion.

And so the person is still human. In these deliverance ministries, the person is actually dehumanized in the same way that they were in the sale of witch trials. Yeah, because you can, like he can always say to me, oh, it's your alcoholic patterns. You know, and I'm like, well, how much deliverance do I need before I can actually use my brain? You know, because like I, like, are you in charge of that? Like, how do I know? You know, I don't know. Yeah, it was, it was a lot too. But That false prophecy, that prophecy that led me down that trail for that connected with the

NAR and then I found out all this other stuff about the NAR was what cracked through the mind control for me. And that's when I started, like, I separate, I just like pulled back a little emotionally so I could just see like, okay, I'm just gonna, I'm still gonna, so I'm a distance I was a distance member. So like the churches in Colorado, I live in Kansas. So we would just tune in.

So that was a benefit to me because I wasn't there. I mean, I was just, I mean, even though I wasn't there, though, oh my gosh, the control was still like insane. But at least I wasn't going seeing in person, you know, but I would go out to these workshops like a couple times a year. So, but anyway, I started just pulling back. I would still tune in and we'd still watch church and pray and like do all these things that we normally did. But it was just like, it was just always there. And then I started to see other things, you know, I was like, hey, you know, like he told a

story that he's told a million times. And it was a story that every time he tells it brings tears to his eyes, you know? And I was just like, those are fake tears. Like that's not real, you know?

And I'm just like, oh my gosh. And I just, I just started like it just, it was just a little by little after that. And then I started to think more about how we treated people when they left.

Like that was kind of what came next. And then I reached out to some people who who had left because I was like, I'm not afraid to talk to these people. Like I've just been told not to talk to them and to cut them, like not just to not talk to them, completely cut them out of your life. Like block them, like burn, get rid of anything that they gave you, like just cut them out and don't ever talk to them. And so I started contacting those people. I was like, hey, what happened? You know, what happened when you left? And because we were told you are a witch, you know? And I

were pented to them to ask for forgiveness because I believed these things, you know, even though I knew these people when they were at our church, like I knew them and I loved them, you know?

So I was really heartbreaking for me to see like how far you'll go, like, but you never would have behaved that way. But think that, think God, he pulled me out of it and he, you know, my heart was not hardened. He could still get to me and and prick me with that conviction, you know? So I'm just really thankful for that. So you've brought up yet another thing that I've never talked about. This is a podcast of firsts for anybody who was never in this thing. We have a lot of viewers and listeners who...

are just curious, what is this mess? What is this weird thing, the NAR? And so they have no clue that this is actually a thing. But there are people who are programmed, manipulated, and fully controlled from remote. I was in remote churches. I was in churches where the church was actually miles and miles and miles away. And sometimes we would have an audio feed only, sometimes we would travel to it, but remote controlled. I mean literally remote controlled. And much like you, I interestingly, one of the places that I live was in Kansas, very close to Joplin, Missouri.

And the church we went to was way off in the Ozarks. It was like an hour and a half drive. So this was pretty remote for us. But much like you, I noticed the fakeness of it because, and I have told this story before, I went to a some sort of a revival thing down in Georgia.

And they had just rebuilt the church. And my kids were a little bit unruly. The interesting part about unruliness in these Pentecostal type circles, your kids get severely beaten because they strongly want you to spare the rod and spoil the child. I refused to do this. And so instead, I took my kid who had sat through this long, long sermon. He couldn't sit anymore, took my son downstairs. Well, they had a, this was unusual, but they had a men's room for taking your children down that was comfortable. They had a recliner and they had a big screen TV where I could watch the

sermon. So I was up in the audience with all of this euphoria that you get in these, you know, screaming and your brain is in, it's almost like you're in a football game. That's kind of the excitement that it brings you. Well, then I leave this euphoria and I go and I watch it on TV.

And I've got the volume a little bit low so I can talk to my son. Well, then I'm looking at it and I'm like, this looks so fake. These guys are faking it. And that was the first time it had ever hit me when I'm watching it on TV instead of actually being in the audience, feeling what the audience is feeling. Yeah, that is, I mean, yeah, once you see it and you just have that little bit of separation,

that's when you're really engaging your mind, you're engaging your mind, and you're thinking critically and objectively and for yourself. Yeah. And like I said, there's like, you know, experiences that I had in that church that I really can't explain. I mean, I've been through some deliverance sessions where I know a demon was cast out of me. Like, I mean, I guess I guess I'm open to the idea that it wasn't like, I don't know, like something happened and I changed. I'm different.

But it's not just the deliverance. It's like also the truth being poured in through God's word and learning more about who he is and his love for me. And because growing up in the home that I did, and I love my family dearly, but it was what it was.

And I had a lot of really bad, like wrong belief systems that were really bad and they did not line up with God's word. And in that aspect, our church that we were at, they gave messages that were very focused on addressing your heart and addressing your belief systems.

So that's why I say too, and then comparing them with the word of God. So that's where we really got a lot of actual, I think it was pretty good meat. Now there was a lot of junk in there too.

I know there was. But that's why I say too that they would preach, if you really did what they said, you would be preached out of their church. If the reins of control were broken off of you and their tactics of control and manipulation no longer affected you, and that's the key because if they're still affecting you, then you could be getting all these great messages and hearing truth, that's really truth, but you're still bound by their control and there are these puppet masters in your life.

Like there was a girl who she did something and ended up being maybe something she regretted and the pastor was like, well, she should have asked her pastor if that was a good idea.

And it's like, so you want us to just come to you and ask, literally ask you for everything. But at the same time, you want us to be led of the Holy Spirit and you want us to seek the Lord for everything.

So it's like, it was just this, what is the word like duplicitous, like kind of, or like a paradox or something? I don't know if that's the right word either. But it was confusing, it's confusion.

Because you're like, well, you're saying to do this, but then you actually are expecting us to do this and it conflicts. So yeah, so then after the false prophecy,

I really, I didn't know what to do because I was really broken because of the way he was treating me and I was sobbed. It really wrecked me. This was the first time that I had been treated this way.

Really, like he had been really a positive thing in my life up until this point, I thought, you know, and I was sobbing and I was crying out to the Lord and I was just like, word, like healed me, like this is really hurting, you know?

And for the first time ever in my life, I heard. It's, it's okay, you're gonna be okay, you know, and I had this, like, part of me that was mature and could comfort myself in the midst of, like, heartbreak, which I hadn't in my life really had that before, and that was just really fruit for me, like, fruit of growth in the Lord and maturing, but meanwhile my pastor was telling me that I have an arrested conscience, and, and my, I can't, my, I'm arrested, I'm like a baby, I'm like a baby in Christ because I'm pursuing this and researching this and keep bringing this

to him and I won't let it go, I'm like, my conscience is arrested, and I'm like, well, I'm experiencing the opposite of that, I'm experiencing a mature mind, you know, a developed conscience, you know, and so it was just really, and I was like, Lord, you're gonna have to judge between us because I feel like powerless right now, and at this point, I had the thought in my mind, I was like, well, what's the worst thing could, that could happen, like, I, I leave the church, like, that's the worst thing that could happen, and that's the first time I ever would have, I mean, I've never had that thought before, like,

no, I would never leave this church, never, you know, and then I, it just kind of plopped out of my mouth when I was talking to my husband, and I was like, not really bothered by it, like when it came out, which, it kind of stopped me, and it was like, yeah, I mean, that's the worst that could happen, and I, I think that'd be okay.

There's this interesting vicious cycle that happens when you're in these movements that, if you're not in this and you've never been in it, you don't understand it, but the ministers put you through such mental anguish that you become mentally distressed, and the interesting part of this is, so the Bible mentions demons, and the Bible talks about demon possession, et cetera.

There are people who believe that any sort of mental health issue is also a demon, because the way that the authors of the Bible, the way that they understood mental health issues was, we don't understand this, this is a demon.

So there's this whole group of Christians that believe that mental, anguish, mental health issues is demonic, and especially in these groups, they believe this, but yet at the same time, the ministers are putting people into that position, so if you really think about what they believe and what they're doing, they're causing the demons that they're delivering people from.

What happens over time, and this is something that, it's difficult, really, to explain to people if you've never been in it, but what happens over time, you become so oppressed and mentally distressed that you start to feel deliverance in different areas, because they're pushing you down to such a level that they'll lift you up in one other area, and so suddenly you feel this thing, what you're Feeling is this release.

You're feeling this release in your head that's happening that some, you know, out of all the mental distress you have, now I've got one area that's free. One area is better. And you start to look at the deliverance minister as though he's some magician.

He's cured you of this demon. But in fact, he's usually the one that caused it to put it there, he or she, if you're in this type of movement. But it is a horrific thing to go through and people don't understand how bad this is.

And again, they're causing the very thing that they say they're casting out in many cases. So in fact, this would make them a devil. This would make them the witch or the warlock, right?

If you could go back in time and give yourself some advice while you're in this and some encouragement that you would finally one day leave, what advice would you give yourself? Kling to Jesus.

Kling to Jesus. That's all I can say. I mean, it's only God who can get anyone out, really. I mean, yeah, Kling to Jesus and don't let any person come between you and the Lord.

Because I really feel like I felt like I was following my pastor following Christ, right? That's how it was in my mind. But I always maintained connection with the Lord and made sure I took my own ownership of my own faith with God himself and didn't just listen to the pastor on everything.

Well, it's very good advice. Thank you so much for doing this. Thank you so much for having me. Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.

You can find us at William-Branham.org. For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

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