How to Choose a Pastor - and Avoid Spiritual Abuse

Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at William-Branham.org and with me I have my co-host, minister and friend, Cheno Ross, pastor and the voice of the understanding scripture and truth by Cheno D. Ross YouTube channel. Cheno I don't normally do this but I'm going to start by a fending half of the audience and I may offend you in the process. I was at I had this conversation with somebody else recently and we were talking about just the

way in which the hero worship has spread throughout the movement and people don't realize the significance of the hero worship or how widespread it is. Some of them can recognize these super apostles or being worshiped but they don't recognize that often it comes down to the pastor in their own church that has a higher esteem and higher respect than any man should be given in some cases and I made the comment you know we should strive to be better people and there are people who make mistakes there are people who are human and they're still

learning and I made the comment well even the Apostle Paul we should strive to be better than the Apostle Paul and I'm saying that knowing that there are people who are just going to be offended because they have worshipped the Apostle Paul and in their way of their teaching but the Apostle Paul was a human and if you really understand that there's in the Christian religion there's Jesus and then there's everybody else. Apostle prophet pastor take the fivefold out I mean I understand the Ephesians passage but if you understand that there's Jesus and everybody else and everybody else has a job to do the Christian religion takes a

completely different shape than in most churches and that's cult or mainstream so you brought up the idea and I'm I'm all for it I probably have way too much to say but this idea that choosing a good pastor how do you choose one I've had people contact me and some of them will say well where do I find the right pastor they always want to find the right guy I don't want the false guy right and it's a lot different than I think people understand after having been in one of these movements you you are looking for something that really doesn't

exist whenever you ask that question so I won't go too far with it. We'll talk through it, but this is a wonderful topic to get into. Well, let's see if we can help people out with that, John. What would you look for in a minister?

If you're going to the grocery store, you have a list. You have a shopping list. As you find the items that you need, you check them off. So what would you require of your...

And let's stay on this, really, your local pastor or your teacher or your minister. I mean, this is what we do with everything else in life. Whenever we're about to select a car,

we don't let the car select itself for us. We don't let the car tell us, you should buy me. I'm the best car on the whole lot. We have our own opinion on what we're looking for in a car, what we're looking for in a home, what we're looking for in a mate. So why should it be any different with a minister? But this is why this is where people fall into trouble, fall into difficulty. So I've had my own little informal questionnaire and I have questioned some people.

And I've often thought about it myself and I am a minister, but I have attended other churches and I've often thought if I wasn't a minister, where would I attend and to whom would I listen?

And I'm sure you've gone through these same steps, John. I mean, you're a person out there in the world. You would like to find a church. You would like to find a minister that you have a reasonable level of confidence in. And I think this is really where we should focus that you're not going to find an inherent infallible person. As you just said, there is Jesus and then there is the ground as level at the foot of the cross. We hear that phrase a lot that the ground is level at the foot of the cross. But when it comes to apostles and prophets and people who think more

highly of themselves than they should, we find out they're actually little mounds and little hills in front of the cross upon which these men stand. But it's not supposed to be that way. So being a reasonable human being, what would you look for in your local minister? And so as I said, I've had a small test questionnaire asking people, what would you look for? And so you could probably come up with a lot of things, but I have narrowed them down in my question and answer with others to about three things. So the first thing that you would probably look for

in a minister, in a pastor, which would mean also what you're looking for hopefully in a church because that minister is a pretty important part of the church. And I realize people look for churches for other reasons.

Like do they have a place where they'll babysit my kids or do they have a youth group for my teenagers? But at the end of the day, the minister, ministers, plural, the elders, the pastor, the teachers, are pretty important in that local group.

So the first thing would be a call. Surprisingly, it's important if this minister feels that he does have a call to do this.

It's interesting, a lot of them don't even care about, have never thought about where they have a call. They're just looking for a way to make a buck or looking for a way to become important or whatever.

But it's very important for that minister to actually have been called to do what he's doing. We've often heard in sermons this worn out phrase that some were called and some were sent and some just packed up and went.

And that's often what you'll find. And so I remember John in the interview you did with a woman named Jen Johnson who came from a satellite group of faith assembly and Hobart Freeman up in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.

There were actually two groups up there. There was one that was pastored by a man named Gary ID who died a number of years ago. From what I understand, you know, died with a lot of medical and health problems because he did continue to follow Dr. Freeman's teaching to the end and to the letter and would not seek any medical help.

But there was another group up there that was pastored by a man named Harvey. I didn't know anything about this group until I was able to talk with Jen Johnson. And that was the group she was born into and raised into.

And so I asked her in some of my conversations. I said, well, I'm sure since there were two faith assembly satellite groups up in Milwaukee that you guys probably got together and, you know, shared meals and shared meetings and traveled together and you know, shut down your meeting and go to their meeting and vice versa.

And you know what, she said no. She said, we didn't do that. We didn't really know much about the other group and we didn't have any fellowship with the other group and that's unusual for a faith assembly satellite group.

But the reason why they didn't have fellowship is because their pastor, Harvey, felt that the only way you can be a Christian pastor is you have to have heard the audible voice of God calling you to the ministry.

Well, I've not heard of that in other faith assembly circles. That was a new one for me. So here you have somebody who is following. the faith ministry and message of Hobart Freeman, but he has his own little twist to it.

And his own little twist was, I know I'm a minister because I heard the audible voice of God calling me to the ministry. And I think I've mentioned this before, I doubt that happened.

When you look at the man's ministry, when you listen to what Jen Johnson said about her experience in the church, you know, I don't think it was a valid Christian group at all. So I would doubt the call.

It's interesting that Hobart Freeman himself never really described, said anything about, told any stories about his call. He always told, I got saved on the road home from a nightclub in 1952, but he never said that I can remember any kind of details about how he was called into the ministry.

And when I look at the minister's under Freeman, the ones that I would call the faith assembly underlings, I know enough about enough of them, and I won't say this is true of all of them.

I'm sure there are exceptions, and I'm sure there were, I hope there were a few that were genuine and good and valid. But I think a lot of them just saw a way to earn a buck.

I mean, there was money to be made. When they saw what Hobart was driving, his Cadillacs and Lincoln's all the time, always talking about, I don't need to take up all Frings and we don't take up all Frings, and I don't need your money because God abundantly supplies all my needs.

And they saw that he had a big income, and then when they looked at some of those other ministers that go back to early days, Jeff Barnett, Bruce Kinsey, Steve Hill, they had a lot of money as well.

And so the other ministers that were coming up, the people like Jerry Reader and Jim Mansfield and Jim Oswald and all these other guys that were coming on the scene, I think in my opinion, they saw an easy way to earn a buck without having to have a job.

And so these guys would teach once a week or twice a week and be able to just stay at home the rest of the time. And I do know of what I'm speaking, although I won't share any details about that right now.

I think whenever we get to talking about some of the satellite ministers, then I can share stories of the people, for instance, with Jim Mansfield, who lived in the same duplex. So lived, there was only a door dividing one house from the other, and one woman has told me, so this is, she was a grown married woman at home while her husband is at work.

Jim is at home next door, but only a doorway is dividing them because it's a duplex, and he's standing on the other side of the door, talking to this woman all during the day.

So I, Do have stories, I do know what was going on. And I just think that the underlings, they were wanting to copy Hobart. Let's see if we can live this abundant life. But I really think for many of them, it was an easy job.

It really was because you just have to teach what? Just a regurgitated message that you got from Hobart. And all you gotta do is once a week and guess what, you get to stay home the rest of the time.

So I think the call is important, but I would be, I would be Larry of some of the calls of these men because I just think it's probably too subjective. Well, in my opinion, my number one criteria for a minister after you left a cult is one who says that they have heard an audible voice from God calling them to the ministry.

That's the one you don't go to. But let me take that a step further. So people have been falsely trained and manipulated into believing this weird miracles, supernatural thing that was taught, to the extent that if a person claims this and you believe it, I've had the audible voice of God, you must come to my ministry.

They think they actually have to. But say it is real. Say that the person actually did here an audible voice from God. God spoke from the heavens and said, you, my child, will be my minister.

It still doesn't mean that you have to go to their church. Does that mean that all other churches are excluded from God's ministry? It really doesn't, but people get in that mindset and it's just the wrong mindset.

I know that you bring it to a theological, from a theological viewpoint. I bring it down to a practical viewpoint. If you're going to take your car to the shop, in fact, we took my son's car to the shop this morning.

His struts, when he turned the wheel, he was going, and sounded like the, I can't remember what that car was in the Beverly Hill billies, but it sounded exactly like that one, right? And so when we take our car to the shop, his struts are out.

I'm not going to take it to some shop that only does oil changes. I'm going to find the shop that does the thing that I need. And people believe it or not have needs when going to a church.

Some of them just generally go to church and they show up because they think they have to go to church. But there are other people who actually have specific needs. There are things that they either want to learn or things they need help with.

There are people who are destitute. They need support from the church. One of the mainstream churches that I went to, which had an excess of money, refused to give money to the poor. Now if you're a poor person and you want to go to a church, are you going to go to the one that's refusing to help you when you don't have food for your five children?

Probably this is a bad idea, right? And that was a main story. dream church, right? So you want to go to a healthy church. However, I used to tell people when they would ask me what church do I go to, they were wanting to find what denomination do I go to. And I used to, instead, point them to these websites. You've probably seen them signs of a healthy church, which is a good thing. It's a good concept. But after I recommended a few and some of the more famous ones, I realized that even the list signs

of a healthy church, many of them are cultish. And so I can no longer tell people, go find signs of a healthy church because you're going to find all of these cult groups saying you must go to a church where the minister has heard an audible voice by God or some ridiculous thing. So you don't want to do that. You want to go to something that is a little bit less cultish, especially if you've been in a cult. And beyond that, you have to go in with the mindset that church was made for you, not you made for the church. People who are, when

they leave these cults, they think they're going to church simply because they have to. And sadly, because they have been under spiritual abuse for decades, some of them, whenever they go to a new church, the spiritual abuse trauma is still so fresh in their mind that they're not getting anything out of it. They might as well be going to the movie theater and watching some movie as to sitting in church. They got just as much out of the movie as they did the church. So church was made for you, not you made for the church. And there's

a lot more I could get into, but I'll stop there. I've got so much to say about this. Well, I'm going to give you plenty of opportunities. You know that with my other points. So the man has the call or he doesn't have the call. I mean, if he says I don't feel any call, I would eliminate that guy. So I mean, this is a bare minimum. Try to find out how do you, what was your call to the ministry like, explain that, describe that to me. And if they go, then I would leave because they missed the first one. But let's say they give us a call like

we just had, John, an audible voice from God. Okay, you look, I wasn't there. So I cannot say whether that happened or not. But I like your approach of, let's give them the benefit of the doubt. Okay. You did have the audible call. So we can check that one all. Now let's go a little further because just because, as you said, he has an audible call. Doesn't mean that the next month or year of his life is going to turn out okay. And doesn't mean you have to go there. So in the second place, would we not want our pastor to know and teach

God's word? The Bible is our foundational document. It's our foundational book. The truth that we want to know, we that we desire to know is in that book. And so I would want, if I were a member of a church.

or looking for a church, I would want my pastor, my teacher, to know and teach God's Word. I would want, that would be more important to me than do they have Sunday school or youth group, or singles group, or old people's group, or unmarried or divorced, or whatever. I would want my minister to know and teach God's Word. Obviously, it presupposes here off the bat that you know a little about the Bible yourself. How can you know whether he knows and is teaching it unless you know it? So it presupposes that we know a little bit, and here is where the bad ones

become the dangerous ones, because they know enough about the Bible to massage the passages, to massage the message, to get it to say what they want it to say. And I think one of the bans of the church world in our day, and it was one of the most horrific parts, I think, of Hobart's ministry, and I've talked about it many times before, John, I want to talk about it again and use a few examples and play one clip from Hobart, but that was his proficiency at cherry picking and proof texting, because people don't seem to quite understand

that because someone can quote a verse, they preach a sermon, they insert a verse, then they finish the sermon. If that verse has been taken out of its context and doesn't really say or mean what the minister is telling you that it does, then he's just lost support for the message because that verse was what was holding up, undergirding his message. And people like Dr. Freeman are out there who excel at this particular area. Dr. Freeman knew Bible verses very well. That's not the same as saying someone knows the Bible very well. You can have one without the other. I think if you know

the Bible very well, you're going to know verses and passages and chapters and stories, but I don't think the reverse is true. Just because you can quote some verses does not mean that you know what the Bible is saying. I think what I came to see in Hobart's method of teaching was that, and it's not just Dr. Freeman, it is almost every minister on TV, almost everyone, charismatic and non-charismatic. They are looking for a verse that has the word or a phrase is that fits their sermon.

And they'll pull that verse out of its context and they'll probably string a couple of them together that has a word or a phrase or some terminology that is what they want to talk about and then they go on until their sermon and tell their story.

So here is a great example. This is its John chapter 10 and verse 10. We can probably all quote, if the thief cometh not but for to steal and to kill and to destroy, but I am come that you might have life and that you might have it more abundantly.

It's a very famous verse, John 10, 10. And Hobart talked about it a lot, referenced it a lot. He's got gross and mass confusion about the verse because I challenge anyone, go read the first nine verses and then start with verse 11 and read that and see if you come up with the meaning that we're getting ready to come up with when we just pull the 10th verse out of John 10.

The thief that we say, well, we know who the thief is. That's Satan, ah, that's never what the passage says. But the thief is Satan and he's coming to steal you of steal from you, you're healing and your finances.

And God has come to give you an abundant life. So here is a message of Hobart's entitled The Abundant Life. That's the name of the message, The Abundant Life. This is almost hilarious. When you just take a step back and go, you may not fell for garbage like that and nonsense like that.

Why a person in kindergarten, if they read the chapter could come up with a better teaching than this. The abundant life starting at the 40 minute and 58 second mark. If we could play through the 42 minute and 55 second mark.

Now, I've got to do certain things if I'm going to live a day at a time in faith. First of all, I want to give you three or four things I've got to do and this is what I do do.

And that is, I must not try to budget God. I'm thinking now on the financial realm. Matthew 6.33 is talking about our material needs that he'll give them to us in that area.

If I'm going to live just a day at a time, I'm not going to try to budget God. Psalm 78, 41 says the sin for which God rejected Israel. That is that she limited God and a budget limits God.

It's your confession. You're not sure God will do what he says. People who keep budgets, you see. It doesn't matter what their income is. They're trying to live within that budget and they'll never allow God to move into that realm because then they'd be outside their budget.

God can't use them to believe. $50,000 for something he wants to do because they've got a $1,000 budget fee. Well, some may not be ready to see that the quicker you burn the budget and start believing the better off you'll be, but it's true.

You see, people keep a budget to say, well, if I can just live within my income and in anyone who has abundant life will never live within their income, that isn't the abundant life.

They don't pay enough. They don't give enough. There's nothing I could do that would give me the abundant life in action. There's nothing I could do because when I was earning my limit with my doctor's degree, I made $4,200 a year, a year.

That would take me if I didn't eat, but I didn't eat, I'd never spend a nickel. It would take me five years to buy the two cars on right now. So Hobart's not only teaching the old, worn out, tried and true, abundant life, health and wealth, financial gain, prosperity, materialism.

It just crafts materialism is all that it is. But it's based on a verse because the verse says, you can have the abundant life. You can have the abundant life. Not only does he teach that, he goes a step further.

And he's actually outlawing budgets in his church, outlawing budgets, family budgets. He's outlawing based on this verse. He also does this on another tape in title, which we're not going to go to. Listen to the title of this, God's great and precious promises, part one.

So this is promises of health and wealth. And so he is telling the people, the quicker you burn your budgets, the better off you'll be. He goes on to talk about the two big luxury cars, he drives and all of this stuff.

And so John, I look back on my life as a young teenager and a minister in my early 20s. And here's the thing. There was a catchphrase and it was called the abundant life.

They would ask, hey brother, are you living the abundant life? And the abundant life goes back to John 10, 10 because remember what I said, they're looking for a word or a phrase that fits what they want to talk about.

They couldn't care less what the context is. They want the phrase or the word. And guess what, the word is there, the abundant life. I am come to give you an abundant life. That was the passage that Hobart would use and talk about his Cadillacs, his Lincoln's and his prosperity.

But he would never teach us John's gospel, which would mean you'd have to teach chapter 9, then you'd have to teach chapter 10 and you've got to teach nine verses before you get to this 10th.

First, so I grew up an ignorant young person being trained by this minister who's promising everyone the abundant life, John 1010. And we'd go around quoting, yep, John 1010, I'm claiming the abundant life, not even having any idea what the Apostle John was talking about when he wrote chapter 10.

You know, Chen, I should have kept talking because you beat me to one of my points, one of my main points and I'll just agree with you and back you up and add this to it.

Whenever you go to hear a minister and the minister focuses on personal stories or in your case, you mentioned loaded language and they focus on that rather than the Bible passage that they should actually be focusing on, it's a good place to flee from.

It is not a good place to be. So I guess I'll head in a direction that I know you won't head. And that is whenever people escape a cult, they have been, like I said, under severe religious trauma and they're traumatized.

Many of them have what is called cult, post-traumatic stress syndrome, CPTSD, and many of them sadly need therapists. And I highly recommend if you are struggling, go to a therapist, it's just like going to a doctor.

I know especially in the Freeman cult in the brand I'm called, you've been trained to fear these people, stay away from them, step out of the fear. It can help a lot of people.

But think about, for those of you who have gone to a therapist, think about this, not every therapist who has a degree is a good fit for you. Some therapists, you may go to, if you're a female, you may want a female therapist, if you're a male, you may want a male, but even beyond that, you may just simply have a personality conflict.

It may not be that they could be a great doctor, they could be a great person, great personality, but their personality conflicts with yours, you have to go to a different one. Yeah, I have been to churches, I had a friend invite me to a church.

The church was actually pretty good, I liked it. I did not like the minister, I liked what he said, I liked everything about him, but he just rubbed me the wrong way. His personality was, I'm not even gonna say, because the person might figure out who I'm talking about, but it was just a personality conflict, and that's all it was.

I have nothing against the minister, I would recommend somebody else go to him. Maybe they don't have the personality conflict. I do, so I don't go there. But think of it like this, I was trying to think what's the most extreme example I can give because people might even still be scared of that if you've been manipulated.

When we, I grew up a large part of my life in the South, I would go spend weeks, months at my grandparents' house, and there's this one church that we went to is an African-American church, and those folks really like to worship man.

I mean, when I say they like to worship, but do they like to worship? And I'm talking like from 9 a.m. till 5 p.m. or longer, whenever I'm starving. So if you're diabetic, don't go to one of those churches because you will pass out and die.

But where I'm headed with that is think about that. There are people who won't attend a church like that, even though it might be next door to their neighborhood because the culture is different.

And they don't have anything against the culture. It's a great culture, it's just not my culture. Well, I have been to some modern churches where smokes billing out of the platform and they've got the disco light, it's not disco, but whatever it is, the lighting, the weird lighting, that might be okay for somebody.

That's not my culture. I don't really, when I think of church, that's not what I think of. I think it might fit a kiss concert or something like this, but to me, that's just not my culture, man, to each their own.

You may like that, but find one that fits you because so for the people who go to this, I know people who go to the, I call it a disco ball church, but it's, again, not a disco ball.

I know people that go there, I know people that their lives have been changed by going there because it does fit them and they enjoy it, the things that they're telling me, they're getting sound, scriptural teaching, it's a great church for them, not a great church for me.

So find one that fits you and don't look at it like you have to go because there's this weird thing when you escape a cult and somebody who is witnessing to you outside of the cult, you feel like beholden to them, you must go to the church, know that you don't have to.

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I tried in our earlier podcast to help document why I think Hobart was so obsessed with health and wealth. And I think it is spraying literally from his own lack of health and wealth.

And that's just not true with everyone else. I would rather, I've told this to other people, I don't think the Bible teaches some message of prosperity. You know, I don't think there's a message, an end time message of prosperity, an end time message of faith, an end time message of healing.

I think there's just the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. And some of these things are incidental, but they're not to be the focus of your ministry. And they definitely were with Dr. Freeman's ministry because he grew up poor and he grew up sick.

So when you find a message that promises you health and wealth, you know, sad to say, but you're probably gonna dive in and believe everything that's there. And I think that's what Hobart did.

You know, when he looked at other passages, like Matthew 6, Matthew 6.33 was a favorite passage. He probably talked about it way more than John 10, 10. Seek he first the kingdom of God and his righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you.

And he had always talked about, well, God gave this to me when I was saved on the road home from a nightclub in 1952. He gave me Matthew 6, 19 to 34. Five times there it says, take no fault for your material needs and he will supply all your needs.

And he would incessantly talk about that and show you each time it said, take no fault. Take no fault, take no fault. And I think aren't we taking fault by studying how many times we're supposed to take no fault?

And he was trying to get to Matthew 6.33. God will supply all of your needs. And it does say that and actually does teach that in Matthew 6.33. But prosperity, being able to have your needs met, I think if we studied that biblically, we'd see that that's just an incidental spin-off to loving God's kingdom and righteous living.

If you would teach people about loving God's kingdom and righteous living, you won't have to talk about prosperity anyway because of that passage. It actually says you won't even have to take fault. You won't have to preach on it.

You won't have to talk about it. If you will teach on loving God and his kingdom and living a righteous and godly life, loving him, loving his word, loving his people, if that would be the bulk of your teaching, guess what, you'll never have to mention prosperity.

But why not? Because that very passage promises you, it'll just be an incidental spin-off because it's nothing that you're concerned about one way, the other way, you drive a long car, a short car, a valuable car, an inexpensive car, really won't make any difference to you because you're so wrapped up in God's kingdom.

And when you're like that, well, according to that passage, then, yeah, God- but we'll probably just take care of your needs for you. You won't have to take thought about them. You won't be thinking about them.

So again, I think this spring from Hobart's own poverty and his own sickness in his own life. I've told this before on our podcast, John, whenever Hobart Freeman would do a communion service at the glory barn or in his church.

You know what he'd wanna talk about, divine healing. And at first, I was on board. I think, oh, because I've never really heard sermons on divine healing and oh yeah, healing's in the atonement.

And why don't other pastors talk about healing being in the atonement? So since we're going to celebrate the communion which represents Christ death on the cross, let's talk about divine healing. But I came to believe in just a few years.

It did not take me long because I've always tried just to be a reasonable person and a person who thinks about it. And so like you said earlier today, John, let's give the guy the benefit of the doubt that got the audible call.

What I came to realize is okay, let's give Hobart the benefit of the doubt that bodily healing is in the atonement, Isaiah 53, 1 Peter 2, 24, in the same way to the same extent, in the same degree as salvation for our sin.

Let's just assume that. I came to believe I don't think that is true because sin and sickness are so different. Sin is something I do. Sickness is something I catch. How can I don't try to get sick?

I just, you get sick. Sin is something I have to go do. So it never made sense to me how could both of those? Since one is something is a moral flaw and fault in my life.

The other is just something that happens to me. How can those be so similar that they're equal and therefore they are equally born by Christ in the atonement? It just didn't make sense to me.

I think the sin problem is the big problem. It's not the sickness problem. But anyway, what I was willing to do is let's give him the benefit of the doubt. Let's say that they are equally in the atonement.

Then you know what I came to have a huge problem with? Then why is it? Every single communion service is a divine healing sermon. Wow, that just seemed to me like way out of balance.

Balance would be 50, 50. Half of the times you're going to have communion. Let's hear something about sin and our savior and salvation and holy living and the other half of the time, to be fair, giving them the benefit of the doubt that is equally in the atonement.

The other half could be on divine healing. We never. And I'm going to say never because I do not know of an encounter. And I bet you can find in. Oh, Bart's 1157 message, there are at least 20.

I think I could find more if I'd go through all of them and hear them again, because he'll say at the beginning, well, because we're gonna celebrate the bread and cup today, I wanted to bring a message on our full redemption and then it preached on divine healing every single time.

And so that told me, I think you have a bias here. You're not really thinking of what Christ's death on the cross was all about. You are mostly interested in healing, and I think you're mostly interested in healing because you've got a heart condition because you have diabetes, because you have polio, because your other leg was run over and it is partially messed up and deformed.

I think you're really interested in healing because of your own personal private needs, not because healing is equally in the atonement as is salvation. I was thinking where to go next, I have so many things to say, but I think I will go the direction that you went in this instance, because this is actually important, I feel, will your brand of call this the gospel of divine healing?

This salvation is in the atonement, and if you really think about that, whenever you are teaching a gospel, even one that you're admitting has a different name, you're teaching a new gospel, and there are Bible passages that really explain how bad this is.

Like Galatians chapter one. Like Galatians chapter one, you're not supposed to teach a different gospel, so that should be obvious if they're teaching a different gospel run for your lives, but there are many people who have been in these movements who have no idea what the gospel is.

So I would say take a moment and just study the gospel, you can find all kinds of resources there, there are great resources online, there are books, it's not this complicated thing, it's very simple.

Whenever I left the cult and I started asking other people who some of them were in, had been in cult, some of them not, yes, and what is the gospel and they didn't have a clue, man.

They, some of them, actually I would say the majority of the people in the cult, whenever they would say he preaches the gospel, they just simply mean he preaches the Bible. That's the funny part about this.

He preaches the gospel, does not mean he preaches the Bible. Understand what the gospel is, and if you're in a church that hasn't mentioned it in three or four weeks, you're probably not in a good Christian church, at least you're not in a gospel preaching church because they didn't preach the gospel, and you can't simply say the minister preached the gospel this weekend whenever he didn't do it at all.

So you want to find one that is at least preaching the gospel. That's like the minimum criteria. Yes. Let me just help people out and I'm gonna go to my third point turn to the first few verses everyone First Corinthians 15 and Paul clearly says this is what the gospel is And they can go look that up for themselves So I'm gonna come to a third and final point John looking for a good minister Does he have a call? Does he know and teach the Bible?

Thirdly and people are probably gonna be shocked, but I think we're probably getting to I think you've intimated this earlier. This is probably the most important one and that is does this man care about me Does he care about me? Does he care about me as a person?

Does he care about me as a human being? Does he see me as a child of God enjoying the same saving grace that he's enjoying? Are we joint hairs or we fellow servants? Are we pilgrims on the same path?

I don't know what people out there thought that my third um Condition or requirement would be this maybe this shocks them Because I think they're looking for back to that first one the call Did he receive an audible call of an apostle or a prophet?

Is he working signs and miracles? Is he causing the moon to turn to blood and the stars of heaven to fall? Is he the seventh angel sent back to the earth? To prophesy all in time events You know, this is just a bunch of crazy nonsense is what it is What people should be looking for is does this man care about my soul?

Does he care about me as a human being? You know am I important to him? Guess what when you get to a big church faith assembly was a big church that ceases to be I happen personally To be an opponent of all big churches. I don't care who they are who the minister is I don't care how much good they're doing That's that is out the door for me That's my own personal belief everyone's welcome to have their own, but I don't think a big church Can function the way a church is supposed to function

And everyone have to come up with their own definition of what is big is that 50 is that 500 is that 5,000 But surely by the time we're to 5,000 we could all agree That's a big church if it's a big church and it's too big of a church to meet What I saw in Hobart's life John is he talked Incessantly about himself He would say God saved me on the road home from a nightclub in 1952 And I made straight A's all through college and seminary. I got enough degrees to paper a wall

He gave me this end time message of faith Matthew 633 And I've got these luxury cars and I live in this home and I study 14 to 16 hours a day Just on and on and on if you listen to any Hobart tape. I'm gonna say any tape you're gonna hear hear him somewhere in that message, begin talking about himself.

Now, if it's a more technical theological one, he simply won't have as much of an opportunity to talk about himself because he has to stay on the topic. But you get anyone on faith and healing and deliverance or prosperity or how to know God's will or anything like that.

And what you're gonna hear more than any teaching from the Bible, you're gonna hear stories about himself. I mean, it almost, I hate to say this, but it almost reminds me of Hobart acted like the neighborhood dog just walking around trying to urinate on every bush to mark his territory.

It's just always about himself. I don't know where I came up with that as an example, but it just reminds me of the bully bulldog and the neighborhood wanting to urinate on every poll and fence post to mark his territory.

This is me, me, me, mine, mine, mine. I didn't see Hobart being interested in the people in his church. He just wasn't. He didn't have any communication with him. How could he study 14 to 16 hours a day in his study?

He didn't wanna be bothered by his wife, by his kids, by the people in his church, by no one. No, rather than that, he was an expert at just putting heavy burdens on these poor people.

Burdens that they should not have had to carry too much for them to bear. He robbed them of their liberty. He robbed them of their joy. He did not know what was going on in their personal lives because he did not care to know that.

He did not wanna be bothered with that. He Sunday night and Wednesday night were the highlights of his week because he had been cooped up in his study, been a long, dull, quiet week, and now he gets to shine and prance about and show off.

And he didn't understand that everyone else was going through all the regular motions of life. Now they were looking forward to Sunday night as well. They were looking forward to Wednesday night. And they were looking forward to what their pastor had to say, but I'm on a little side tangent because I am and have been a minister.

And I don't know that people out in the pews have thought a lot about this. But let's say your minister preaches every Sunday morning. Let's say that he's in full time ministry so he doesn't work, doesn't have a secular job during the week.

I don't know that people have processed how important that moment is for him that week. And if he teaches Wednesday night, how important that moment is for him. He's got all of his eggs in one basket.

I mean, this is his week for him. Where the rest of us, we've already gone to work, come home, made beds, made dinner, mode the lawn. We've lived a normal life the whole week.

Someone like Ho- or did not live a normal existence. I think this is, I think the New Testament does clearly allow for a minister if he preaches the word to live by the offerings of the people.

I think Jesus said that. I think the Apostle Paul taught that. I do think that we do have biblical support for a minister to only be a Christian minister and not hold a secular job.

So I'm not saying that I disagree with that, but what I am saying is there is a lot to be gained by having a dual occupation. And I know this because I've experienced it.

Had I not experienced it, I'd probably be out there with everyone else, not really being able to understand how important it is. Hobart could not identify with real life and real living and real people because he was never around them.

Whenever you are a minister and you are dual, vocational, you preach, but you also work. Now for someone like Hobart, that'd be a cop out. Like, oh, you should be spending all your time.

You should be trusting God to meet all your needs, give you the abundant life. And you should be spending all your time and prayer and study and getting ready to preach. So they would look down their nose at a Christian minister like the Apostle Paul, who not only preached, but also had a day job.

They would look down their nose at them because they just think you're carnal, you're not spiritual. And I just don't think those guys understand what they have missed out on. You really come into contact with daily life and daily living by working out there in the world.

Consequently, your sermons and your teachings and your messages, they're going to have what? They're gonna have compassion and empathy in them because you've experienced real life that week. Where the minister who hasn't, he just has this standard set up so high for everyone now.

Have all of you read through the Bible in the last week? Did you spend an hour each morning praying as soon as you got up? Well, he can because he's got the time to do it.

Those people can't because they don't have the time to do that and that's the problem. They are so dependent on you as their minister and then they come and you feed them this nonsense, this garbage that is not, as you said, John, that is not the gospel.

So I would put this very high on my list of trying to find a church, trying to find a pastor, is does this man care about me and my wife and my husband? Does he care about our children?

Does he involved? Does he want to be involved? life at all. You know someone had a meeting I want to say it was in 2013. They told me about it. They met up with Steve Hill who was married still is to Hobart's oldest daughter Pam Freeman Hill.

Met up with Steve wanted to talk about the past time that Faith Assembly and you know what Steve who was the elder son-in-law of Hobart when he said about Hobart. They were asking him questions about Hobart. Steve Hill this is a quote said, I didn't even know the man. I didn't even know the man.

Gave him two grandchildren married to his oldest daughter, one of the top ministers in the church. You think those ministers, you think Hobart got the ministers together and they had regular Bible study together, regular prayer together, regular meetings of accountability. You know you ask your lieutenants. If you're a smart boss you ask the people under you how do you think I'm doing?

Should I do more of this less of that? What's the temperature of the congregation out there? Hobart knew nothing about his people. That's why he didn't care when they got author insulin and suffered terribly and then eventually died. He just said well they must have missed one of the conditions because you know you never died believing you only died doubting so I guess they were doubting whenever they would have a love feast and they would all bring their dishes and they would all get together. Hobart stayed up on the platform. He kept himself isolated. We don't want to you know

tame ourselves with the common man out there. That is not a healthy sign of a healthy church because it's not a healthy sign of a healthy minister. I'll follow on the heels of that again. So there's this movie. I don't know if you've seen it. Oh brother, where are they? I have. It's basically a hillbilly take on Homer's Odyssey. Well you're familiar with the John Goodman figure in this, the guy that he's selling bibles and he comes and beats him with a stick and takes all their money.

Here's the thing that I had that I know is going to make a lot of people mad and I've already done it so it's okay. I've got no problem with the minister who doesn't fully understand doctrine because I don't put them on a pedestal above me. I'm a human. I'm learning their ministers.

In my opinion, they can be learning too and they may not fully understand doctrine. If they're teaching old covenant tithe, I think they're in the wrong because we're in the new covenant. They're teaching old covenant tithe and they are asking you for 10% of your money count the congregation. Every 10th person is a salary for this guy, right? And you're talking about these mega churches here against them. I have to say I'm a little against them too because if you count the tens of thousands of dollars that are coming in every Sunday, I wish I had that much money

and the building doesn't cost that much. I'll just say it like that. But so I've got no problem with doctrine. They're teaching Old Covenant Tithe, they don't under, you're in a church, whenever you see this, you're in a church that doesn't understand the covenants.

That's fine. I've got no issue with this. But if they're teaching Old Covenant Tithe and they're leaving the part out of the Old Covenant Tithe where the priest gave it back to the people, picture John Goodman with that stick beating you on the head every Sunday asking for that tithe because they're following part of the law and they're not following all of the law. And what does James say about following part of the law but not keeping all of the law? Yes, John. And look, let's go back, let's go back to where we started this podcast talking about John 10-10, the abundant life, the thief, come with not before

to steal. I was always taught that the thief is Satan in that verse, that the thief is the devil. And what he has come to steal from me is my health and my money. And Jesus has come to give me all of that back in the abundant life. You know, the Bible uses a lot of different imagery and symbols both for God and for His ministers. And I think one of the most tender and beloved comparisons in the Bible is that of a shepherd. You know, we all know Psalm 23, the Lord is my shepherd and I shall not want. You know, it's that

loving, caring relationship that the shepherd has with the sheep. And guess what, John 10 is talking about. It's not talking about Satan. It's talking about hirelings versus a true shepherd, the good shepherd. It's not talking about Satan at all. If you read the previous part of chapter 9, he's been in a long, all of chapter 9 is to dispute with the Pharisees because Jesus had the audacity to heal the blind man. And they're all upset that he healed the blind man. That's what all of chapter 9 is about. And so the attack in chapter 10 of John's gospel is not against Satan. He's not even in the picture. And

of course, he is a thief, but he's not in the picture who's in the picture of the false shepherds. They're the hirelings. That's, that is who is in the picture. And so when we look later in the New Testament in places like I've referenced this before Acts 20 in verse 28, when Paul calls all of the elders from the Ephesian church to my lethas, then he calls him over and said, be good shepherds of the flock. He's using that same analogy.

Jeremiah used it in his prophecy warning against the false shepherds, Ezekiel and Ezekiel 34. He used the same analogy, criticizing the false shepherds in Israel. And that would simply be your leadership. It could be for Israel. It could have been their political leadership.

could have been their religious, it could have been a prophet, a priest, a prince, a king, government, civil leaders, whomever. Ezekiel was laying the accent, the root for all of them, because they had simply harmed God's people.

And I think it is in Ezekiel 34, maybe verse four, maybe verse five, I don't remember which one, but early in that chapter, the indictment against those false shepherds was that they did not tend to the needs of the sheep.

And the knees were physical, you didn't bind up their wounds, you didn't heal those that were sick, the responsibilities were those that wandered away and were lost, you didn't go gather them back, you didn't seek them out.

And when I compared those verses with Hobart Freeman's ministry, he was a false shepherd, because he didn't care if you were sick, he just pressed and pressed and pressed and made sure you didn't get any type of medical aid.

He wanted you to do whatever you have to do, trust God and end up dying if it comes to that. And that's exactly what it came to. People that left the church, people that had, you know, aren't we allowed to have a question to our minister and say, I don't exactly see it the same way that you taught it.

Did you mind answering a couple of questions that I have about your interpretation of that verse? Do you think that was allowed at faith assembly? Absolutely not. Hobart's word was God's word. That's what he said and that's what he taught the people and that's what they came to believe.

Hobart's word is God's word. Hobart's word is Hobart's word, Chinno's word is Chinno's word and God's word is God's word. And you better believe you have not only the right but the responsibility to go and ask that minister, I don't quite see things this way, could we talk about this?

When you find a minister who says, oh no, I'm not willing to talk about it, he doesn't care. He doesn't care about the fact that you, legitimately in your mind, maybe illegitimately in his mind, but legitimately in your mind, you don't quite see it that way.

You have a doubt or you have a question. He would just wanna steam roll over you and you can't do that to any person. A person who has a doubt has a doubt. I'm sorry, it's just that's who they are.

If they have a problem, they have a problem. You can't say, well you can't have that problem. You can't tell someone not to feel what they're feeling. You're not allowed to do that. You may not understand why they're feeling that way.

You may think what you said was abundantly clear and you can't understand why they can't see it, but if they can't, they can't. And it's up to you through patience and love and long suffering and that's what you'll do if you're a shepherd because those are your sheep and you love them so much and you care about them so much, you don't want them to stumble over anything.

So you will go above and beyond. on to make sure that they won't stumble, to make sure that they do understand. So I find it interesting, John, here just in conclusion that not only did Hobart misrepresent, John 10, 10, and he's always teaching on financial prosperity out of that, he failed to see what the whole background of that passage was to gonna be an indictment against him.

He's acting more like a hiring because he doesn't really care about the sheep. As long as he's got income, as long as he's got a pulpit, as long as he can dance and prance about in front of everyone and show everybody how great he is, how smart he is, he doesn't care about those brothers and sisters in that church that are suffering.

And as we have done a year and a half of podcasts now, and I have heard from people weekly, I hear from someone new, I heard from someone on Saturday, someone I never dreamed I would hear from, because I won't say who they are, but they are a child.

I told you this story in an earlier podcast. Remember, there was a person who wanted to leave Tom Hamilton's group. Tom Hamilton had probably the biggest and longest lasting satellite group of faith assembly down in Shelbyville, Kentucky.

Tom died about 10 years ago, but this person was a part of Tom Hamilton's church. They found me, thought I was better, I was a better flavor, and they wanted to leave Tom's church and come and join mine.

And I never, and I was okay with that, but I never wanted to be a sheepstealer. That just bothered me. So I called Tom to clear all that, say, Tom, look, you've got this family in your church, they think they like me more than they like you, and they want to leave your church and join mine.

And I don't want them here, unless I have your permission. I just thought that was the fair and honest thing to do. And so he said, yeah, you can have them. So they came and this person told me that he was a prophet, that he was just like his equal.

Zachariah, Malachai, he's a prophet. I haven't heard that person's name, haven't talked to him, his wife, anybody about him in 35 years. And guess who I talked to on the phone on Saturday, one of his 11 children, one of that man, and I said, sister, dear, honey, sweetheart, I'm so glad you called me, said, I am so happy to hear from one of the children of this very odd soul from so many years ago in my life.

So we had a wonderful hour conversation. By the one, that's the one that you turned me on to and them on to me because they had reached out to you first. So again, my point is look for a minister.

who is willing to walk with you through your Christian life and share your burdens and I don't think anybody could dispute what I'm saying that Hobart did not share anyone's burden. He thought he was above that. He got his message during the week and he came and preached it and it was up to you to live it. Was he down in the trenches with the husbands and wives and boys and girls, not one bit? So I would say maybe put it at the top of your list. I'm with John. I want a man who is

biblically literate. I don't want someone who is biblically illiterate, but I also want someone with personal piety. You know, both of these, I think they go hand in hand. I want someone who will teach me God's word, who does understand God's word, but I'm totally on board with you on this John. None of us know it all. So your minister, there may be something you know that he doesn't know. That's okay. You know, he's got time to grow. But if he's failing in this area of caring for the sheep, you know, I just think he totally fails as a minister. Yeah, and I would go so far

as to say he's not a minister. All right. Thank you. It's like we compared the notes. You're going down the pathway I was going to go. So I was going to end with this and I'll, I'll just add this story, I guess, to, so I have something to say. If you've listened to the last podcast that Charles and I did, it really sums this thought up. If you are in a church where the minister is preaching at people instead of four people, you are not an administrator that cares for you. He has no care for you whatsoever, especially if they're a minister that are preaching at people that are

leaving. Can you imagine if you went to a doctor's office and the doctor's doctor started telling all the patients how awful you were if you left his practice and went to another one? What kind of doctor is this, right? And you're going to a, to a guy who claims to be a shepherd and he cares about the sheep. Well, the moment a sheep leaves, if he's preaching at him, this is, this is not a shepherd. He could care less. Charles's, Charles gave some audio clips and oh my gosh, one of them was this minister. He said he walked into KFC and he saw a person who used to attend his church.

And he started screaming at him, hold there, the ugliest people, this ugly little gray-headed, ugly man. And what kind of a shepherd does this man? You're not going to invite them back into the folds like this. I'll just tell you that's not how you're going to attract them. And anyway, I'll end it with that. I've got a thousand more things to say, but this has been fun and interesting and thank you for doing it. Yeah, thanks for having me on, John. I appreciate it.

Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at William-Brandom.org. For more about the dark side of the new Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.