Charismatic Language: Modern Tower of Babel

Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Brannem Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Brannem Historical Research at William-Branem.org and with me I have my co-host and friend, Christian Thomason, host of Saint-Em Artifact on YouTube. Christian, it's good to be back and to talk about culture shock. You and I were chatting a little bit beforehand and I was struggling not to laugh because I remember this culture shock that we're about to talk about. We talked previously about language and we talked about music and somewhat we talked about culture but in the cults we had loaded language

and we had it was a language that only we knew and often if you're in a group of people who weren't in your particular movement they had no idea what you're talking about. It was funny and even so we're in I came out of the Brannem sect. We were in a Pentecostal type religion but I could be I had the experience actually a couple times of being in a room with other Pentecostal people and our language just made this communication barrier. They had no idea what we were talking about in some circumstances and we also had very

insulting language that I look back and I think this was not a Christian way to talk. This was if you if you take the position that many take that cuss words are evil. What we said was so far beyond worse than a cuss word to a person. We had I don't know if you if you knew this or not but we would call people who weren't in our movement cannon fodder and what this means basically is during the war you had back during the olden days when they had cannons and muskets.

You would send this initial round of troops forward because the the enemy would fire their cannons and just obliterate whoever was sent first and those people didn't matter it was the second round that came through to win the war so the first round of people literally were lives that don't matter. We don't care about you go in and die you're the cannon fodder we don't care. That is how we called other Christians who weren't in the movement. What what a nice way to to describe your fellow Christians. It really makes you want to join the

movement doesn't it. So anyway this this language thing I know we talked about language before but the culture shock of language and not just that but even so after I've left this. I've been part of different churches, different organizations, denominations.

And even within those, they have their own language so that when you're in a crowd of people who aren't Christian, you're talking one language. They're talking another. They don't understand what you're saying. And I look back and I think, you know, some of the conversations that we've had, we could have really appealed to those who are outside of the Christian community if we just simply spoke the same language.

Yeah, we talked about it in the very first, in our very first interaction, our very first video, because I see this becoming a problem in the future. It's already developing and becoming a huge problem here in Germany because there's a huge difference between the languages of each denomination they are using to describe their faith, their works, their righteous deeds, their moralistic behavior, what being a good person means, what experiencing God means, they're using exalted or special language. Like it's not even something special. If you are in a working environment, there's a special terminology to that environment because

people need it to describe steel, how to work with steel, how to work with computers, how to work with plastics. That's totally normal. So there is a Christian language already derived from the Bible, derived from Christian education, derived from Christian academic discourse, I would say, I'm not talking ivory tower language, I'm talking serious Christian language to be as precise as possible, to be as nuanced as possible, and to be as honest as possible, describing your faith. That should be a normal thing, but it isn't. And that's becoming a huge problem for me. Just today I had a discussion and that's the like the kicker for me wishing myself,

I have to talk about this. It's unbelievable to me. Over and over again, I am in dialogue with Christians that are using the most exalted language to describe basic things, or they are thinking that using terms like I'm born again Christian, I'm part of the body of Christ, connected to all the Christians in the world. I'm not exaggerating. That's the language these people are using, and they really think they are making an argument, an intrinsic inherent argument that has a value, but it hasn't. Saying you're the wizard of us isn't an argument, saying you're the red power ranger and have the power of grace car isn't an argument. If you talk like that to

a non-Christian from... outside of the Christian world, they would think you are crazy if you are using this kind of language. So you are using this kind of language to make yourself seem like you're professional, like you're moralistic, but there is no intrinsic argument to it. It's just framing. It's just qualifying. I am an academic. Okay, so what you're saying is I am an academic. Yeah, but what do you want to say? I am born again. So that's the problem we are having. Christians are talking like that without the understanding of how to describe their face, their faith, how to describe

their beliefs, how to describe their worldview without using this kind of hyperbolic, exalted language that has no intrinsic value. Please, don't use it.

Absolutely. I was in a conversation recently in a group of people with one person who was, I guess, charismatic Christian, another person who I don't think they were even Christian at all. In me, who has experienced all of this weird mess that I have experienced, well, the lady had just gone through some severe trauma. I won't describe what it is she went through, but she said something to the effect that I was in a season of whatever was the trauma. And I looked at the person who's not a Christian and they're scratching their heads season. Is she some kind of a tree? What kind of a season is she talking about? In the message,

in the Bram call, we didn't have that language. So for me, it's kind of funny. This goes back to our music conversation that we had. The first thought that come into my head is the bird song to everything. Turn, turn, turn. That's what came into me. There's a, and that probably is the more biblical meaning of what she was saying. However, her interpretation came from loaded language that she was literally parroting her pastor. You're in this thing. You're going through this trauma.

It's for a season have faith and you will be brought out of this thing because your faith will help you out of it, which is good. That's not that bad. But you're, if you're in these charismatic type movements, what if you have a dehabilitating disease that is going to last the rest of your life? This is not a season. This is something you must endure. They don't have allowance for this. So her language of season to her meant she was going to faith her way out of it.

To me meant the birds is one of the greatest songs ever. Turn, turn, turn. And to this person who doesn't understand the language, thinks, this woman is a tree. What is she talking about?

And it all comes down to this. There's two things going on. Number one, when people are in these movements, they get so caught up in it that even their language... Begins to shift and change and they start parroting what they hear from the minister and they don't really The other thing the other big thing they don't consider their audience when they're speaking so Yes, you can have a language But if somebody's in your audience who doesn't understand your language for for example if I speak English and there's a person who doesn't speak English and in my audience

They can't understand what I'm saying they have no idea what I'm saying well we are As in these Christian movements, especially in the charismatic movements when they have loaded language This turns into a huge problem because now you can even have I've seen the case where Charismatic Christian from one group is talking to charismatic Christian from another group Their language comes from their pastor their pastor has different loaded language will now two worlds have collided And they can't really speak to each other and it becomes two towers of Babel Yeah, good example What you were describing is some kind of private talk

So there's there's a Christian sister. She is not well read. She's not well educated and if she starts to describe her feelings How her well-being in pictures or loaded language still everybody understands what she wants to

What she wants to express, right? But if you do this in a bigger setting on a stage Presenting yourself as the big teacher using this kind of language. That's very deceptive At least it's not professional But you could also say it's deceptive intentional deceptive if you use language that's open for Interpretation right even more than deceptive. So I've been in What's a good example?

in technology I have a client who has a thing that they are specialized in whatever it is Yeah, and they have language that they have Evolved and created within their organization to talk about specific business processes related to the organization so This becomes common language within the organization and whenever the term is used people understand that this term refers to this entire Policy operation function whatever it is, right?

But then when they hold a meeting that involves another company and the other company comes in If the employees start using these This specific language that only they have and only they know and that they realize and recognize that only they have and only they know It becomes almost as if they the outsiders are inferior We know this process we're using this language and we're not going to even give you the benefit of telling you what it is We're talking about we're just going to continue using our verbiage and leave you in the dark so you can't understand our speech.

And if you're in a meeting like this, this meeting doesn't go well. I've actually been in meetings like this. When you're in a good, healthy meeting, where both sides are collaborating, both sides are learning, when a term is used, they will pause and say, now we just said this, this is referring to our process, which includes X, Y, and Z.

So it's more to the fact of being courteous to the other side. Yeah, good point. So that's anti-Christian already. So if you're not interested in the other person that doesn't speak your language, if you don't ask questions to specify,

did you understand what I just mentioned? Stuff like that. That's anti-Christian. It's not Christian to use language that people can't understand. That's anti-Christian. That's like, yeah. These people are not worth it. On the other hand, what I'm experiencing is, if we are using this kind of language, maybe in an environment that is common to this language, if we use it over and over again, describing basic things of life in this exalted, huge, hyperbolic language, we are de-evaluating our own language, our own culture.

And in the end, there's nothing left we can say if we want to precise. I don't know if there's the story of Peter and the wolf in, yeah, like the kid that's always shouting, wolf, wolf, wolf, to a point where his, his wolf doesn't have any meaning to it.

There's no way to it. Nobody reacts. It's worthless. Him shouting, wolf, wolf. And that's the same as happening to our language. So we have to be very careful about our culture, about our language, about our outward behavior, especially in front of the world, if we are explaining us to the world, describing the gospel to the world, giving a picture of God in all his holy attributes in this language that we are using.

We are far too careless on the one hand in using words that are too loaded, as I explained on the other hand, we are de-evaluating our own culture and language. There's a balance to it.

There is. And you know, some of the language, and I'll give some examples here for people who aren't familiar with this concept that we're talking about. Some of the examples of the loaded language have the full intention of keeping the people in a cult-like mindset.

What I mean by that is there are specific terms that are used that have the full intention of corralling the people that include a full doctrine or a series of doctrines that they claim come from the Bible.

Touch not God's anointed. So if you're in a room of people, and there's some person who's... The Sean Feist method. Yeah, well, and it was the Brannum method too, but if you were in a group of people and somebody who's not a Christian, or even somebody who is a Christian, but has never came in contact with this.

Yeah. They are behaving like a normal human with curiosity and questions. And then suddenly the person says, no, touch not God's anointed. Well, that means to the charismatic Christian, shut up, you can't talk about the leader.

You can't question the leader. He has authority and you must submit to him like you would obey a king or a monarch. That's the loaded language, right? But the person who's outside has no idea.

And yet at the same time, it is used as a condemning mechanism so that the person saying it can condemn the person who is hearing it, even if they don't understand what it means.

Yeah. The opposite of this is spiritual covering. So a person goes and does something really stupid and gets injured. I don't know what it is. And they're in a group of people in the hospital and they're in the waiting room in the emergency room and somebody says, I'm under the spiritual covering.

Well, in the context of an emergency room and the context of spiritual covering, I am under the leadership of a person who claims that he can divinely heal me. So therefore it's okay that I'm in the emergency room.

That would be the weird context of this. But to the other people in the waiting room, they're like, how does spiritual covering apply to your broken leg? This doesn't make any sense to me.

And there are several terms like this that spirit of rebellion. So if you ask questions, if you're genuinely filled with questions about the movement because you're interested in joining it, asking those questions in many cases will lead you to a convert of the movement who says, you can't ask these questions, you have a spirit of rebellion.

Well, then they're just going to walk away. You're never going to gain this new convert. So these words and these phrases, while they have an entire doctrine or series of doctrines behind them, often they're used as offensive terminology to offend the person you're saying too.

Look where we are as Christians. This is exactly what I meant when I was saying, I am the red ranger, I have the power of grace car. How devout are people, excuse me, how stupid are people to fall for that kind of language for them?

that kind of behavior, but that shows that nuance, precise use of language is so important. And here I am already struggling. Every time we both are talking, I am struggling, thinking, oh my God, there was way too general.

My expression was way too general. Okay, it was funny, but it was general. In this generalistic sense, it was funny. Oh my God, I was missing some nuance there. We have Christian brothers and sisters out there with various YouTube channels.

And it doesn't, let's not talk about agenda or the word view. I won't name names, but there are Christians out there struggling with every word on their channel because they know how important words are, how important it is to describe some things, very nuanced, very precise,

very respectful. This should be everyone's approach to the Christian message, everyone's approach to the Christian message. It's not a problem if you can't, if you're not that well read, if you're not that well educated.

Yeah, okay, then you shouldn't become a preacher, but that's not a problem. What we are talking is people presenting themselves out there on a stage using this kind of exotic language. People out there in the comment section of any random YouTube video, telling others what to believe, what to know, what to read, lifting themselves up with the rhetoric, putting other people down with the rhetoric.

They are not saying, I'm up here, you are down there, but that's the rhetoric they are using that makes you feel like you're less of a person than them. They have the power, you have no power.

They have the Holy Spirit, you don't have the Holy Spirit. Please watch their language, watch your own language. It's so important. It is important. And there's so many, like I could go off into a tangent talking about examples of what you just said.

But they create these barriers that are just really offensive. If you're not in the movement, if you're not into the collective movement, they number one, they don't make sense if you're outside, but number two, they're really offensive.

An example would be faith versus doubt. A person might say, if you question this, you're in doubt. What these movements have trained people to do is make everything really black or white. You're either a believer, you're either in faith or you're in doubt.

And what this does, this belittles anybody who might have questions. If you have questions, you are doubting, but that's not the case. black or white, to form an opinion, people have questions, inward questions.

And that's how opinions are formed, right? The very first thing or isn't that the most important thing that we want to

infuse our children with, be out to ask questions. That's the most important skill that you can ever develop in your life. Ask questions, ask everything. I can't describe it in English, but basically, I take everything into question, everything, really everything.

That's the most important skill you can ever develop in your life. Ask questions. Absolutely. Another example, we're spirit-filled, but they're religious. The loaded language behind that is so offensive. What it means, basically, is we in this collective group, we have the Holy Spirit, but all other Christians who aren't in the spirit-filled unity that we're in, they're in a dead religion, their religion is dead.

They're basically their Christians, but they're lesser Christians. And that is one of the, we had different phrases for this, but essentially, that comes down to the same verbiage as the canon fodder that I mentioned earlier.

It takes the person who's not in the same agreement with your doctrines that you have, and it puts their opinion on your doctrines as though their opinion is no longer Christian. You're in essence taking all of all other Christians and you're saying, they're not spirit-filled, they're religious, they're making joyful noise unto the Lord, but their noise God is not listening to.

Yeah. As you mentioned, there's one aspect is they are raising barriers to normal quote marks, normal Christians. So they are the, if we say there's one,

someone on the stage using this in a deceptive way, this kind of language, intentionally, in a deceptive way, then there are describing things that are so huge, so big, so otherworldly that there's, that normal Christians can't find them in their own life.

So they start questioning themselves, questioning their own beliefs like, he has all these experience, he's seeing all this thing, describing all the things, I don't have that in my life, maybe I'm not Christian enough.

So there's, they are raising barriers between themselves and God. The other problem is, of course, the misleading difference between religious and spiritual persons, and that's exactly what I was experiencing. today, because the person I was talking to was framing everything in the most pious and moralistic words you can find, qualifying themselves before they would make any intrinsic argument, permanently, repeatedly qualifying themselves as moralistic, superior, pious, you name it. It's, yeah, it's just, I don't know the word, Zebes Beweiräuscherung, we call that in Germany, like when you're anointing yourself, you're permanently anointing yourself. Yeah, and that leads me to the other

thing that I've noticed. And this is odd, I would have expected to see this more in the Brannum religions, because they're more, more cultish, but I actually see this more on the charismatic side. So the ones that are not as destructive as the Brannum cult, I'm seeing this one, but when two people get together, if they get into an argument and one side starts to feel like they're losing the argument, then if they're in a charismatic church, the person losing the argument will say, well, I don't care what you say. God told me. Well, that that

halts all conversation, because if God is the one speaking through them, God can't be wrong. I must be wrong. I must, I must be quiet. I must listen to what they say. And it halts an argument, and you really have to ask the question, did God really speak to them? Or are they just trying to make the other person shut up? And I have to believe that in some of the cases that I have heard, it was literally just to quiet the other side. Yeah, that's what we call in like the rhetoric, fear, the argument from power or the argument from authority,

right? So if you're somewhat educated, you wouldn't fall for that. But that doesn't count for most of the Christians out there, even more for Christians that are starting their journey, right? They are impressed by that kind of language. They are impressed by that kind of outward behavior. This habitus, we would call it in Germany. People presenting themselves with that kind of authority might be impressive for very young, very unexperienced Christians.

But in the serious theological and philosophical arena, you would be a clown. The problem is that arena is very small. And most of that people don't care about themselves posting in the common sections of YouTube or making big

videos on YouTube. And that's why it's so important to have these kind of conversations like you and I have. It's so important. We need that. I just was made aware of that. Because of our conversations, I became aware of the fact that there's nothing like this in Germany.

It's really missing. People are craving for it already. Some of them reached out to me like, man, I felt so alone with all of that. I was feeling like I'm the only person ever experiencing this kind of deception from the NRA. Carous Mania called it whatever. People are starving for honest, well-meaning, down-to-earth conversations. Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation?

You can learn this and more on William Brannum Historical Research's website, William-Brannum.org. On the book's page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book. You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top.

And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching. On behalf of William Brannum Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support. Whenever I was making my transition out of the cult and into the churches, the thing that really bothered me is I recognized the loaded language because the moment I started attending new churches, I could use phrases that we would say after service in the Brannum cult, and they had no idea what I was talking about. Even though we're kind of talking the same

language, the language barrier was harmful, but then after attending one of the new churches for a period of time, if I attended a different denomination, like you said, each denomination sort of has their own language. And a lot of that, again, is tailored to the pastor. The people will hear it over and over and over, and it's human nature. You start to pick things up from other people.

In fact, I won't mention names, but some of the podcast hosts that join me, I've noticed them starting to use phrases that I use just because they're in conversation with me. That phrase resonates with them, right? So that part of human nature is normal. What's not normal is...

If a person were to pick up a phrase that I use for whatever reason, and we're in conversation, and that makes sense, and we can collaborate on our conversation with it, if they were to start having a conversation with another person and use the same phrase and watch the person's expression change, and pick up on the fact that they just, they didn't understand what I just said.

They would have halted and used a different phrase that the other person could understand. But when you are in a religious setting, in a religious context, the people not only pick up on the language, but they pick up on any hint of pride that the minister has.

If the minister is a very prideful person, and the minister is saying these phrases that he has, you know, in his loaded language, the people pick up on that and associate with the pride, then they too mimic the pride to other people.

You can read through the New Testament, you can find all of the examples where Paul is preaching in his letters against pride, as this is one of the greatest sins, because if you're prideful, how can you attract other people to Christianity?

Yet, when you're picking up the language and you're using it in a prideful way where people can't understand it, and not sensitive to the fact that they don't understand it. What you're doing, it goes beyond just a failure to communicate.

It's really a breakdown in conversion. How are you going to convert somebody to Christ if you can't even speak a language that they understand? Yeah, just in our last talk, I think we ended up talking about Paul's speech at the Areo Park, and from there, we developed a contrast in or talked about how important it is to see your audience as they are.

If Paul was preaching to Jews, he would start with the history of Israel, if he was preaching to... Gentiles. Gentiles, if he was preaching to Gentiles, of course he wouldn't start with the story of Israel.

They wouldn't care. There was no connection to it. He would start with God, the creator of the universe, the creator of the world, the creator of the human race, the human race, based on one blood from two parents, etc., etc., etc., so of course he would recognize his audience.

He wouldn't make his preaching about himself in that kind of way, but he would care about the people he was preaching to. And the other thing you mentioned, the language barrier, if I was to wrap up my 10 to 15 years Christianity, the topic of language would be in my top free, especially because I see the problem that the difference in language between the denominations, especially between, I'm sorry, Carismania and every other denomination, is so different that there is no more common ground.

And I will explain what I mean by that. Over the years, I talked to many carismatics in a loving, caring way, both engaging, friendly, everything was okay. But

as I grew up or matured in my Christian faith, I read the Bible, I read Christian books, I was Christian-educated, I became firm with academic discourse and the language used there. Again, I'm not talking ivory tower language, I'm talking basic Christian language derived from the Bible, okay. So over the time, I realized that carismatics aren't using that language anymore, they have developed some kind of, in Germany, we call it kiki-schbrache, like baby speech, softening everything up. The problem in the end and the problem that I see for the future of Christianity is that we, Christians like you and I, become the strangers, become the strange ones,

the harsh ones, the unloving ones, but we are using basic common Christian language to be as precise, as nuanced and as honest as possible. The problem is not, the problem is they are using language that is worldly, as a taric, hyperbolic and very interchangeable in all of its compositions.

That's a huge problem. We can't reach them anymore. The language barrier grows higher and higher and there's so much explaining to do and just to make sure I'm not talking about the Holy Spirit touching someone to be in the presence of God. I'm talking about truth here. I'm talking about world views here. I'm talking about the Bible itself. There are already German translations of the Bible that are outrageous. We even have a gossip language Bible, a transgender Bible, and the language there is not a Christian language anymore. It's a world ugly, obscene language that has nothing to do with Christianity.

And I see that I am sorry with Carismania. They are drifting further and further apart from the truth, because they can't express the truth anymore. In its basic, precise, honest form, because they don't have the language for it anymore.

They are using Kiki Sprache, Baby Sprache, isoteric, hyper-ballistic language that is of no use, that is interchangeable and worthless in itself. You know, and a lot of it really comes down to not just the language, but the false worldview that emanates from the doctrine surrounding the language.

Yeah, of course. It's a world of angels and demons, and it's either right or wrong, black or white. That's really how the cults, that's the cultish mentality, a black or white mentality. Picture, if you will, a minister in the charismatic movement, who goes to a college of people who are studying, I don't know, say they're studying literature, and he's speaking to an audience that is not Christian.

Picture a charismatic minister doing this and quoting Harry Potter in his speech to them. Every charismatic person in a charismatic church would roll over and say, this is heresy, you can't do this, you can't speak Harry Potter.

But yet Paul, there's a famous verse, what is it? I think it's first Corinthians. He says, to the Jews, I become a Jew, to those outside the law, I become as one of the law.

I have become all things to all people so that he could save people. That's a quote from the Apostle Paul. And he did this, as you mentioned, not only with the example you gave, but even in his linguistic style and his letters.

There are letters, it might have been from that passage. He says, for how is it? For in him we live and move and have our being. And that phrase actually comes from a pagan poet.

It's not actually something that he came up with originally. He also said, one of the other quotes is, we are his offspring. I think that's from Aritas. He uses verbiage and language that was familiar to the people who he's writing or speaking to.

And that language may not have came from a Christian circle or Judaism or anything like this. He's speaking in common terms that they can understand. And in today's world, especially in the Charismatic Movement, you can't do this.

I cannot picture a sermon. I'm laughing as I'm giving. these examples, because I can't think of a sermon where a minister will speak in the language of those who are in his audience, if his audience is not the collective church that he's usually speaking to.

I have been in situations where the minister has invited people from outside, or he's out speaking at an event, and the loaded language that's used comes straight from the Bible. It's not taking into account the audience that's being spoken to, and he's not following Paul's example. Paul's example is to find common ground, show them how the common ground matches what you're trying to say, then give them the message, and they better understand that message.

Yeah, a good example. One thing I want to mention, JK Rowling is so often misunderstood. We should be glad that she was writing her books for an audience, and especially young audience, because, and that's the main point.

She would introduce the horrors of German Nazionaresozialismus to a young audience. That's the essence of her books. She is describing how people are bullying, other people that are different from them. Later on, as the story develops, the story develops around other, let's say I'm sorry from a basic English, other magic people against the muggles, the lower muggles, they hate them, they want to erase them because they are different.

She is introducing a young audience to an emotional, rollercoaster drive of what it means, what German Nazionaresozialismus really means, being a Nazi really means. That's what her books are about. And if you want to criticize her for using a magic as a kind of device, it's a literary device in the end. It's interchangeable, but let her tell a story of what it means to, yeah, to, I hate that I don't have the language to really marginalize people that are different in your society.

You have just put into words what I have tried to put into words with Harry Potter now for, I can't tell you how many different episodes, you hit the nail right on the head because if you are outside of these movements and you are familiar with the literature, but not just the literature, the meanings within the literature and...

the literary styles like you mentioned. If you're outside of the charismatic Pentecostal circles and you're watching one in those circles condemn you for reading these books, but you have a deep understanding of these books, you take a step back and you just kind of laugh because while they're falsely accusing you of all of this demonology just simply for reading the book, many of the things that is mentioned from the magical standpoint, from the demoralizing standpoint, from dehumanizing the moguls like you mentioned, many of these things are actually happening in real time in these charismatic Pentecostal circles.

So the person who's reading it, they're thinking, wait a minute, you're condemning me and you're practicing this type of magic, you're demoralizing these people, you're condemning the outsiders as inferior, how are you not the subject of this book?

Brother, I'm really outspoken right now because I think it's, I don't filter my language, okay? People that are struggling with, in my view, really simple Ken Follett novel, right? People are struggling with a Ken Follett novel, want to explain me what Harry Potter is about?

And these are the same people, they are less art, they are way of reading. They are applying the same way of reading to the Bible. People that are thinking that Harry Potter is about witchcraft, how wrong can you be?

Harry Potter is not about witchcraft, witchcraft is just a literary device, it's interchangeable. Harry Potter is about marginalizing minorities in a society and how that develops into the horrors we have already seen all over human history.

It's not about witchcraft. That's the same, like, saying Ken Follett novels are about raping because he's describing, I mean, he's describing most of his books about medieval history. So, of course, there's raping, but his books are not about raping, are not glorifying anything medieval, right?

It's so stupid, excuse me, it's so stupid. And the same people that are talking like that, like, Harry Potter is about witchcraft, they don't even, they don't understand a Ken Follett novel. I'm sorry, people that can't understand a Ken Follett novel can't tell me they know how to read the Bible.

Reading the Bible is about nuance, is about precision, is about honesty, is about truth, is about, is it biblical or not? And if you are not that well read, please shut up, stop talking.

That leads me actually to one of the other terms that's used. There's different variations of this, say they have a Jezebel spirit, or they have a religious spirit. Ah, yeah, the famous Jezebel spirit.

Yeah, not understanding, so the Jezebel spirit, this is one of the things that I studied extensively, because this was a phrase that we use often. And I was a little surprised when I first began to understand the deeper meaning behind that section in the Bible. It wasn't that Jezebel was doing any of the things that they applied Jezebel spirit to.

Jezebel was literally bringing idolatry into Israel, which included human sacrifice. She did one of the lowest forms of evil that can possibly be done, brought this idolatry that included human sacrifice. And she was, she was eventually put to death, right? Well, they apply this Jezebel spirit even to somebody who might be forming a question in their mind. Do you have a Jezebel spirit? Or especially if you're female and you don't dress according to the dress code, they have a Jezebel spirit. In Brannemism, it was so ridiculous, Brannem would say that anybody who is female, who wears facial makeup, they have a Jezebel spirit because Jezebel is the

only person in the Bible who painted her face, which actually isn't true if you read the book of Esther. But that's what he said because he apparently had never read the book of Esther.

But I could go off into a tangent with this like you did. The terms Jezebel spirit, they apply it to people who might be questioning. And other examples they might use, they have a spirit of deception, they have a religious spirit, not a faith-based spirit.

And they apply this to ironically, to even theologians. They'll say this theologian, he just has a religious spirit. And what they're saying is a person who actually studies the deeper meanings of the Bible and understands it like you do the Harry Potter books, which that puts us on the same page interestingly. So a person who has a deeper understanding of the Bible, we're going to use insulting language against them. So therefore anybody who's in the church who sees this, they suddenly think, oh my gosh, when I read the Bible, I must read it superficially, because if I get the deeper meaning of it, I might catch that Jezebel spirit. I might become

one of these religious zealots. And so people actually are not reading the Bible to understand the deeper meanings, they just read it superficially. And in doing so, you're missing the entire meaning behind each book. I would understand if we introduced a wording or a deduction,

a literary device in that form, like Jezebel spirit in a way to describe, like make it a common thing to describe someone who is misleading people into something. So we, just printed a term. I don't think printing is the right word, but we just printed a term, Jezebel spirit. Another example would be a good example would be Calvinism. If I were to use, were to use, if I were to describe to you the foreseeing of God, his almightyness, and so on to you. Without using the word Calvinism, you would say, yes, yes, that's true. That's from the Bible.

But if I used the word Calvinism for it, you were just like, oh, no, that's witchcraft, that's

that's bad. So there's the problem again, the problem of language. Sometimes we use deductions to describe things in a very easy way. Again, your example of a working environment, we are talking computer language, we are talking plastic language, whatever, engineer language. And we want to deduct, I don't know, like one word describes a whole concept.

So we have people like that in Germany as well. We have words like heilsgeschichte, if we talk all the, it doesn't matter. People come to me like, there is no heilsgeschichte in the Bible, of course not. Trinity is also not in the Bible, but it's a specific terminology we use in theology to describe things without having the need to explain the entire concept again and again, again, again, as we are speaking, it's just a specific term. So that's a problem of language, again, if people don't define their terms correctly, yeah, or demonize certain kinds of languages

without being very well read, very well educated in them, and very superficial about it. Then it's easy to demonize everything into that's bad, that's not Christian. Some of it even goes beyond dehumanizing the verbiage and loaded language that is used for implications of spiritual warfare. So this concept of spiritual warfare, which even that in of itself, if you're speaking to a person who's not Christian, they won't understand what does this even mean, the spiritual warfare, but they have brought forth this idea that we're living in a world filled with angels and demons, and if I stump my toe, it's because a demon was around

the corner, but thankfully I had an angel who helped my toe not to break. That's the kind of world view that has been created, and then this idea of spiritual warfare augments it, and they have a whole set of language that surrounds just the spiritual warfare.

and the battles you face in it. So if you're talking to a person outside of the group and you say, I just had a breakthrough. Well, the person who's listening, who's not part of this movement, they think, oh my gosh, did you invent something?

Are you going to file a new patent with the copyright office? And it just simply means I have had a spiritual warfare victory and my victory has helped me not stump my toe, whatever is the example.

There are words like this that the, like you said, the word itself has this entire doctrinal meaning that if you were to take a person who's outside of your group and try to explain what the single word breakthrough meant, it would take you probably an hour because you would have to transfer the indoctrination in your head to their head.

And here's where it gets interesting. This is the most interesting for me part of the conversation that we've had. The people who are indoctrinated like this, many of them have no desire to be a teacher, are frustrated with the thoughts of being a teacher.

And if they were told that they had to sit and explain the doctrines of that single word to a person who's not in their movement, they would simply refuse to do so. I'm not going to teach him.

He can learn for himself. And so there is no desire to even teach them the meanings behind the word. Yet at the same time, I don't think many of them could because they themselves don't even understand.

What is the doctrines they're supposed to believe? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it takes time. It takes care. Sometimes it's not even enough to explain a concept because behind the concept, there's already a worldview. Like talking Christianity, atheism, new atheism, translating into, we are already at the point where humanists realized that atheism or humanism can't be a serious argument anymore.

So we are translating into a post-humanism or transhumanism. So entire concepts, entire worldviews on the table to explain just a few words I used need hours to be explained fairly nuanced, honest, you name it.

So what I want to say in the end is there's a consequence to all of this we just described. There's a huge consequence to it. We are devaluing other people if we don't see them as they are, use language, they can understand and that's not Christian.

If we take it even further, what a great point from you. We are dehumanizing them. They are not from us, they don't talk the same language. And because of that, it's so important that we, as Christians, the entirety of Christianity starts to use not only a common language, biblical language again, not a traditional language, religious language, not the language of your denomination, but biblical language to explain the gospel and to explain the holiness of God to the world. And if we don't do that, then we slowly start to dehumanize everyone that's an outsider. And therefore, in the consequence,

we miss to see the image of God in them. The gospel is not for religious persons, it's not for persons that think of themselves, they don't need God. Of course, the gospel is for them, but the point I want to make is the gospel is for the people that don't have the truth, that don't understand the truth, for the people outside of Christianity, for them is the gospel.

But if we dehumanize them because they are lower than us, they don't have the language, they don't have the expressions, they don't have the right cloth, etc. We are dehumanizing them, and therefore we are missing the point in that all of them are made in the image of God.

And we are in effect treating them like the muggles. So thank you so much for doing this. Exactly, yeah. There's so much more I could get into, and I'm just I'm really happy that you're able to put into words what I've been thinking about the Harry Potter books. I've interestingly, I've not read them, I've watched the movies, but the concepts behind it, when you watch the movie and you understand the deeper meaning, it's just like you said, we should not treat people this way.

They should not have treated people this way. And if you understand the deeper meaning behind this, it's saying many of the same messages that you will actually find in the Bible. It's just using a different verbage and a language that appeals to a different crowd.

This appeals to a younger crowd of people. And I sometimes wonder, does not many people in the charismatic movement, and Pentecostal movement, who have not yet learned the deeper meanings of the Bible, do not they need something that is lesser and simpler for them to understand, like this.

It's written for them. It's written for them. It's so ridiculous. First, Jacob Rowling is attacked nowadays by LGBTQ people, and that shows the These people never understood the novels and never understood they were written for them.

They are the minorities, JK Rowling wanted to make a story about. Like you are made an image of God, you are very like you have a worth, you're a soul, you're a living being, you're my human, you're my fellow human.

That's her message, these people don't understand it. And on the other hand, every, it's again like Paul meeting people where there are. Every one of these stories, fantasy novels, whatever, introduces some kind of lesser messianic figure, being it Superman, being it Spider-Man, being it Harry Potter in the end, saving everyone.

One of these stories is about Jesus in the end because Jesus was the original Messiah. Every other story than the Bible just tries to explain what a Messiah is, what it means to save people, what it means to sacrifice yourself for the good of other human beings.

Well, thank you so much for doing this. Like I said, I could go offer a tangent for hours and I'm sure you could too, but hopefully people get the deeper meaning of our conversation.

Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at William-Brandom.org and Sanctum Artifact on YouTube. From more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.