God or Man: The Doctrine That Makes People Divine

Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Brandham Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Brandham Historical Research at William-Brandom.org and with me I have my co-host, researcher and friend, John McKennan, author of the persuasive preacher, the gifted prophet, and the noble politician. John is good to be back and to take another deep dive into this heresy that you've been doing. I was looking through what we're gonna talk about today and I'm remembering some conversations that I've had in the not-so-long-long ago past.

Different people of different groups, different cult groups that have kind of borrowed the same doctrines and each one had some leader or set of leaders that claimed that they had this divine revelation and this doctrine, you know, they're telling me exactly the things that you and I are gonna talk about and I'll never forget the look on their face. I'm talking to them and I'm saying, well yeah I had these recordings from William Brandham from 1947 to 1965 and and then I could quote Brandham and talk about the things and they're jaw-dropped. They're like, oh my gosh, you mean back in the 40s and 50s and I'm like, yeah, you know, it's

nothing's new under the sun and these people who are claiming divine revelation. Most of them, they're loony and they're just, you know, some of them are just making stuff up but there are people who are meticulously going through to find the deepest, darkest, most sinister heresy and then revise it a little bit, twist it a little bit, repackage it, put a new bow on it and then feed it to their congregations as something new and I'm just, you know, when I look at this, I'm a little shocked that it continues and even more shocked that congregations of

people allow it to continue. There has to come a point when people actually start reading their Bibles and they say, no, no, no, we're not going to do this anymore. You can't feed me this garbage. I'm not going to take it but we're going to be talking about some garbage again and not long ago I did this podcast with Adam and we were talking about Bill Johnson at Bethlehem Church and how when you become a Christian he says, Bill Johnson says, it rewrites your DNA. You become, you become the DNA, you have the DNA of a different person and so many alarm bells

are going off, man, you know, you can tie that, the way that he packaged that, the way that he put that bow on this big pile of stuff, you can literally take multiple doctrines of William Brannum and package it up with that same package, rewriting your DNA. I'm thinking the serpent seed, you can rewrite your DNA in this manner. All of this, you know, the manifest sons of God, that's a pretty package for DNA. And what we're getting into today, we're going to be diving into the ER God's theology. And, you know, it's sad because I grew up thinking this way. We were

little gods. And whether the cult likes to admit it or not, that's what was being pushed. It was being pushed that William Brannum said it like this. He said, I've had, and this is him quoting, this is Heresy, this is awful that I'm about to say. So no, this is his words, not mine. But he said something to the effect, I've had more miracles in my ministry than Jesus Christ ever did and all of his years on the earth. And I've only, you know, I've only been in the ministry so many years. He is bragging that he is better than Jesus.

That's how bad this Heresy gets. But then take it a step further. He is telling the people that I've done this thing. I'm greater than Jesus. I'm bigger than Jesus. And you can do it too. Let me show you how. And then he put this carrot on a string for people to follow and nobody ever got to the carrot. They were just following the carrot on the string that's hanging from the stick. I was one of these people, man. I thought I could speak things into existence just like he told me I could. I thought I could heal the sick, all of this stuff.

And when it comes right down to it, Brannum was just one and a long line of men spewing the same Heresy. Brannum, there was really nothing new with Brannum. But he's spitting out the same heretical statements over and over. And they're copying other people who were also heretics.

And you've got this long transition of Heresy molding and shaping and repackaging and selling to the public. And you know, that's what we're going to be talking about today. We're going to be talking about pure Heresy. Hello, John. It's great to be back with you again and do another show.

It's been this time exploring, you know, William Brannum's concepts and teaching of the seeds of adoption. And that's what we've been exploring in the last couple of episodes here. And just want to do more deep diving into all the avenues that's going to.

I don't want to rush this, of course, as I said before, because it takes quite a while to present enough of it, you know, so you can fully explain it and understand it. And second, you know, this teaching in all of its avenues that it tends to go down is really the heart of message teaching.

And that's what I really want people to understand as we're diving into the message of William Brannum. But also, I know you can take it and relate it to other groups as well. And of course, what you been focusing on is probably the New Apostolic Reformation, and certainly a lot of these message teachings have made their way in there. But other groups have taken just portions of it and used it for their own ends, and I want to say the doctrine is so subtle. You know, it does use a lot of scriptures, but it does morph those into something that scriptures not really

sane, I believe. And so it's very subtle, but while I was studying on this episode today, John, right now my notes, I got to even a more clear picture, you know, where this originating within the Christian church. And actually, if you want to really look at where it came from, we could take it back to when Satan fell, and then to the Garden of Eden, when he was persuading Adam and Eve to disobey the Word of God and become like gods. You know, that will be clear when we get to that, and it's quite interesting. And I've got some interesting things to say about

that, that the doctrine that we're focusing on here, though, when you take it to its core, it's man-centered, it's rather than being God-centered. Although much lip service is given to God, and Jesus, and all these things, they sound good, but Jesus Christ, as being God's eternal sun, is not seen for who he really is, that he is the one true God from eternity past before there was anything. The Bible said he, being the Logos, was with God in John 1-1. So we're going to explore that today, as well, and I've got some really good information from other, from ministers,

and what they've said about that, to share there, especially from basically just one, who was well-known within the message ranks. So when you get caught up into the man-centered doctrine it just leads you off to deep ends, sends you the people out into many trails, even ministers that go nowhere, and they do give you a view of who God is. But in the end, the main focus of all this is the preaching no longer is the cross of Christ. And I believe once the cross of Christ is not central, you know, to every sermon where you can bring it back to the work of Jesus Christ,

the church is off on the trail that will take you nowhere. But if we stay with what Paul taught in the New Testament as well as other writers in the New Testament, you know, the cross is central to everything he taught. Everything else flows from the death of Christ in his resurrection, everything that God did. That was the central message of Scripture. The message ministers will mention the cross and remind the people they needed the cross, but it's certainly not central in most churches. The life of a Christian, you know, to them is how they live the Christian life,

it's just a journey to see either on one side of the prosperity gospel side, how much they can get from God, or how much they can manipulate God through his laws, or how you can even become a God, and even to the point of being part of the Godhead as a God. So I'm really excited that we can explain, you know, these cons, to people because I really hope many message people will finally understand what is being taught to them because it can be difficult, it can be difficult to see how it deviates from the Bible.

But I think if people really believe Jesus to be God, they wouldn't be following these teachings that bring Christ down to their level or bring themselves up to his level. You know, we're just God's created beings.

The person of God is Father Son, Holy Spirit, you know, was never created. The God had never had a beginning. So we in Brendom contradicts this by saying, sons have beginnings. And we'll see that here shortly.

But that beginning may only be true when we're talking about the human birth, and I would agree with that, even the birth of the body of Jesus, but not when we're talking about God had been Father Son, Holy Spirit, that's the big difference here.

And message teachings also very clear on the subject and how they view it. So John, looking forward to getting into this with you today. Absolutely. You know, I really struggled when I first came to terms with the fact that my entire foundation was built on a doctrine that was solely intended to humanize God.

That for me, once I understood the implications of that, how heretical this is, but the severe consequences of this, trying to humanize God, it has to be offensive to God. I mean, I can't look at this any other way.

And so when you understand that what William Brendom taught was slightly different from even one of Spenacostles during the times when his stage persona was one of Spenacostle, there was the slight variance. And it was just slightly different.

It became something that was new even to the one of Spenacostles. Then when he's speaking to trainitarians, it's slightly different. It's a variant. The times when he's praying to the persons of the Holy Spirit, the father's son and Holy Spirit, he's praying to the persons.

But even in his prayers or whenever he's referencing this, it's just slightly different. And so people who are not understanding sound theology, they hear this and, well, this is different than I understand. Maybe it's new.

Maybe it's something either new or maybe I'm incorrect and they start going that direction. The problem is because William Brendom ridiculed theologians in theology and because he was appealing to an audience who largely they didn't know theology, they didn't know sound theology.

Some of them were largely uneducated and he's appealing to these people by taking God and making God more simplified but even more humanized. So he's basically making God more relatable by humanizing God. Then once he is humanized God, as we said before, now he tells you that you too can become like this.

God has come down to our level. We can rise up above his level. And that's... really floored me when I began to understand this. This is awful. This is this is heresy. Now take today's world. You mentioned and it's true. I am diving deep into the New Apostolic Reformation. Once you understand that that foundation that was laid, what was he doing? He was teaching a variant of truth. So here's the truth and let's twist it just a little bit, make it a little bit different, more peeling, new, exciting, whatever. I want to know what the variance is and that's

why I, you know, at this point I could care less to even study Brannum, but I want to study what is the variance between what he said and what is the truth or what he said and what is the actual history, what he said and what is the actual Bible because so many ministries took that variance, that variance between truth and fiction, and then they built their ministries on top of the variants, then other ministries came, they built their ministries on top of that variance. So you have this entire empire that has been built, that has literally built upon the variance between truth and fiction. And all

this comes back to, like I said before, it comes back to these recordings that we have that I grew up with and so it's fascinating to me to dive into this. John that's so true and I tell you as we get more into this we're gonna, it's gonna boggle the minds here of your listeners today, but I want to go back to what I pointed out last time about the person of God being made up of attributes and we quoted a minister let him speak about what he was saying about that, but you know if the person of God is only made up of attributes and you and Jesus and

bride or just attributes to varying degrees, you know some is more important and some less important, then then you begin to see yourself as God. You know the message teaches you that since you bypassed the word body and that's what they they call it, you know you were a thought, but you just bypassed the the offending word body that you should have had. That's why you came into these sinful bodies. You just don't remember it that you were really part of God. So Jesus of course wasn't like that. He came in in as the offending body in the

beginning and he was born in flesh, so he didn't have the sinful nature we had according to how message teaches this. And the message of course is just trying to bring you back to that memory by revealing mysteries, you know through the prophet William Brannum. That's really the essence of the the whole thing here.

And you know that's the reason the cults bypassed the Bible and go off into eras because they have this belief that their leader has the full truth. You know even if it contradicts everything currently believed by the Christian church and just to show how they leap into this belief in the message, I'm almost quote something that this minister that we quoted last time goes on to say and they all have to bring this in. We'll find this in this other minister soon that I'll quote a different one. But they bring in things to try to support

or their belief in William Brown to be the prophet. So he says, Revelation is 10, 7, tells us that during the days of the voice of the 7th angel, when he should begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished as he's declared to his servants to prophets.

So consequently, it was unknown thing until this age. He emphasizes, of course, our time. Many have probed at it, coming, and so we're not trying any way to put down what people always believe or previous believe.

That's not the idea. The idea is we won't to share with you what God has done in this age, an unveiling scripture. So in the days of the voice of the 7th angel, that it would be, of course, the same angel, that is in the messenger of the last church of Revelation 3, 14.

It says, under the angel of the church of Laodicea, that's the 7th church age, 7th Gentile church. We see this mystery of God is reserved until this unveiling is to take place in the voice of the 7th angel.

The issue is God has done something new, and we just want to share with you what God has done in this age. So just before the 2nd coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, God has graciously sent us a thus saith the Lord on many biblical things, points that are essential to our faith and preparation for the next really big event in God's program.

This age is required to have a faith unlike any previous age before, because no other age had to believe for a change in their body, the meeting in the air, the rapture. So this is the first age that has to have the faith to believe that.

So consequently, a very special message had to come forth to bring a very pure word, to bring a very pure faith to prepare people for the 2nd coming. So we see in what he said here, he's just trying to support, there's been some new message brought to bring a new kind of faith, just so that you can get a body change, and all this teaching runs together, and we've shown how they're bringing it down, but really, there's only one faith, and really when you're born again, you have that one faith.

You don't need some other message, some new message as he says it comes, or was there something to be revealed in this age only to a people so they can have a body change?

No. No, when you've believed in the Lord Jesus Christ for your salvation and God has saved you, he's given you the faith that saves, the faith that he's granted to you, you have that faith without any additional message.

You don't have to believe in these seed doctrines like we've been talking about. So, but that's how they hook you in as they try to get you to believe there's something special going on.

But I'll say this, what's a cult gets a person to believe that God has sent a special person with gifts or signs where they only have the true interpretation of scripture, then the person's mind becomes totally brainwashed, and the mind controls sets in.

And it's hard to, you just can't get out of that very easily. So I understand where everybody is. Their critical thinking just goes out the window and we're no longer using the scripture then as our guidebook.

And we're only using the sayings of the gifted person's words as speaking for God straight from the throne of God as the voice of God for our guide. And that comes always before scriptures.

Even William Bram says, I read between the lines of scriptures. So he's not really reading what the scripture says. He's only trying to say what he thinks scripture says between the lines. He's creating his own scripture in other words.

So whatever the prophet says is true, even if it contradicts scripture. And so until a person just resets their authority structure you know, back to scriptures, they will remain in this mind control. There's no way to get out of it.

You have to put scripture as your first priority. And that's really what happened to me is when I began to minister I put scripture as my first priority. I said, I have nothing to say.

No man has anything to say except what God has said in his word and his scriptures. You can't read between the lines and try to interpret what scripture's saying. You have to say it exactly as it says.

So when I use that as my guidepost then I ran into conflict with the message. So these groups John tend to do several things and I'll list them out here. They have an exclusive truth or reveal truth, not previously known.

And I would say that's not so because the apostles had that exclusive truth that was revealed in the first century when Jesus appointed them and they had the only truth that we ever will need to know.

And these groups also say, you must know this truth to be in the elect. But I'll say again, the apostles gave out the only truth that was to be for the elect people. And then they'll say, this truth is the most pure form of word is ever known.

And that's what we just heard this minister say and he said, they gotta have a real pure word to be a real pure bride. But I'll say we already have the real pure word in the word of God in the scriptures.

We don't need someone to come try to tell us what it means because it means what it says. And they'll also say, well, doomsdays just around the corner and these things are gonna happen very soon in our time such as maybe the rapture.

But Jesus also says no one knows the day nor the hour.

And they also say, we heard this minister say they requires you to have a different faith or a faith like no one else has. Well, well, John, if God has not already given you the faith, you'll never have it anyway.

And this is more of a works-based man-centered gospel because if you're trying to attain under that faith and you don't have it already because you've been saved, then it's a lost cause because you'll never attain of how it works.

And over and over even in this message of adoption that we see, there's a tinge of works in there. There's always a tinge of- works in William Brandham's preaching. He's always preaching about you've got to have everything sealed up correctly and the father has to inspect you and make sure you're okay before you're finally sealed even with the Holy Spirit. So that's totally contrary.

If you go through the book of Galatians and I've been going through that recently, you'll find that it's always faith without works and without one thing that you can do. So that's how these groups get you in. They get you hooked and then you're forever working for forever trying to be a good person, forever trying to please God and you realize you never do. But once you get into the group's mindset, the bending of scriptures, meaning is much easier and it's very hard to detect by the members. That's how cults pray on others, John, and especially I would say innocent people, innocent, sincere people and there's many of them

in the ranks of the message today. You know, I was just thinking last time after we were talking just how bad it is with regards to how a group turns into a destructive cult, but even more than that, how they turn into mind control from some of the doctrines that we're talking about. I'll never forget whenever Charles first started talking about positive confession and he was describing how this is basically the recipe for opening up brainwashing. You're getting people to believe something that isn't there. They are starting to step away from reality.

They're trying to believe something that their body is telling them, their own body is telling them isn't real. Many people who are in the positive confession mindset actually go onto their death from the same condition that they believe that they're healed from and yet up until their death, they're basically out of their mind while they're doing this. They're brainwash to believe that they should claim healing whenever they're not healing. But whenever we're talking about doctrines where you are becoming God, the idea that you are to believe that you're empowered by God, you're becoming God. This really has the same effect of the positive confession. You are

literally separating from a reality. You're believing that you as a human being, as a mortal human being are essentially God. And what it turns into and what it has developed into, you can see this widely through the charismatic movement and to New Apostolic Reformation. People start believing that even their inward conscience is God speaking to them or they believe that if they have a gut feeling, that gut feeling is God. Many times those the conscience and the gut feeling are a result of either their environment or their upbringing, their training or the conditions around them.

In other words, a child who is stealing a cookie from a cookie jar has no idea that this is wrong until somebody tells them that it's wrong. And if they're continually told, hey, don't go steal cookies from the cookie jar, it will spoil your supper.

Well, eventually, when the mother's in the room, and the other room, and he walks into the kitchen, his conscious is telling him, I shouldn't be doing this. My mother told me not to do this.

How does he know? Is the mother telling him? No, the mother's not telling him. It is a trained response. And whenever people get into this mindset, it's really trained responses that their claiming is God.

Now, does that mean God is not speaking to them? I'm not going to say this. I can't say because I'm not in their hearts, but I do know that I have seen people who are claiming this for the most ridiculous things that I seriously do doubt that God would intervene in such a situation. I'll just put it like that. Maybe it's true.

I don't know. I doubt it's happening in all of the situations that they claim. But it opens the door for mind control. And for me, this is one of the key elements of why the message called falling of William Brannum is a destructive cult.

It has, if you look at Dr. Stephen Hassan's bite model, behavioral control, control of information, thought control, thought manipulation, and emotional control, emotional manipulation. Every one of those key elements we find in Brannum's ministry, and I've actually had that conversation with somebody who was a Brannumite, who had some clout as a Brannumite. And he said, yes, but you have to understand, John, the people in the message who are in the leadership have taken this away from Brannum's core theology, and they've turned it into a destructive cult.

This guy actually believed that it was a destructive cult, but he said it's not a responsibility of William Brannum. Brannum had nothing to do with this. It's the ministers, the leaders of it today.

But what he doesn't realize is if you go back to those recordings, you can find every single element of that, of that bite model, you can find it right there in his own recordings by his own words. He is controlling the information definitely. Nobody knew that he was working directly with the second and command of the clan. I mean, that's kind of a big thing, right? That information was hidden. The control of, you know, behavior control, the thought control we're talking about today, the thought manipulation, and the way that he prayed upon the emotions was just there's not a

single person. Even if you're the most devout Brannum follower, you will admit that he is really appealing to your emotions. So this has all the signs and all the makings, all of the pillars of a destructive cult. And for me, this turns problematic. Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the New Apostolic Reformation? You can learn this and more on William Brannum Historical Research's website, William-Brannum.org. On the book's page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Steven Montgomery,

John McKinnon, and others. with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book. You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top.

And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching. On behalf of William Bramham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.

So let's get into this. It's built upon the concepts that we looked at last time. In this episode, I do want to focus on the background information a little bit leading up to the diminishing of the person of Jesus Christ and how they do it.

And then how the Bible's teaching of who Jesus is was distorted. Or it was changed by William Bramham and the message preachers to believe what they now believe. But I won't message people to understand this because I think if they see this, surely they would understand that you cannot diminish who Christ is.

But I'm not sure all preachers really get to this level. And especially the young ones nowadays because they don't study deeply. They've just kind of been brought along and they're just going to repeat things.

But they're going to stay on the surface. Sometimes, sometimes, managers just stay on the surface of these things where it's safe. Because they know if they do a deep dive, they probably won't even understand it and they may get confused.

And they'll eventually get their congregations confused. So their congregations might even leave if they taught what the message really teaches. And I hope that's what will happen in this case that many message people will come to their senses about what's really the authority here and come out of it.

But there are some things that William Bramham believed about God that are simply not biblical and nor are they orthodox or what we call the accepted doctrines of Christianity. And I'm going to quote the same preacher here that we shared last time.

You know, in this quote, and it's continuing on in the same message that he was giving there. In general, they have to invoke the prophet every time the end time message, just secrets that could only be given by God.

And I want to make this clear that such points as these could not be known in the previous ages, the Bible shows us clearly that there's to be a mystery saved to the end of time.

So when they take scriptures out of context, they put all these things as mysteries to be revealed at the end time. They diminish what Paul preached, they say, well, Paul didn't know the full truth, didn't know all these mysteries.

Whereas I think Paul knew all the mysteries that God wanted us to know even for this time we're living in now. So that's why many ministers and good men get caught up in this teaching because they're looking at this particular slant of the Bible and how these things come from and fail to see the real context of the scriptures.

Knowing that Malachi 4 is speaking of John the Baptist, the Elijah that was to come, because Jesus confirmed that that's who the Elijah was, but they try to split it up and say there's even another coming.

Of course, that will come before the great turn. day of the Lord. So you top that off with something that looks supernatural, manifestations, and you know these arguments about an end time message and all really become convincing. Now here we are continuing on what this minister said. Jesus of Nazareth said to the Father in John, now Father glorified thou me with thy own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. So Jesus was more than the man born of the Virgin Mary before the foundation of the world. He had a glory that was God's glory. Now we'll

see how that was as we continue on. So we'll find out how he was. He the first born to become the manifestation of the invisible God. So I stopped right there. This minister is saying the same one I've been quoting. He said he the first born to become the manifestation of the invisible God. So it was not like he was God in the beginning and manifested himself is like he had to be born out from God to becoming manifestation of God. And that's how we've said before being attributes in God coming out of God is the same thing as how they're teaching

how what Christians are today is they're just manifestations of God coming out of God. And I'll continue on what he says. I'll give you a simple thought on that. A word is a thought expressed when we speak a word it becomes an expression of my invisible thought. So God God with this great thinking desired expression and out of the thoughts of God came the word. So that's how this minister portrays Jesus coming is being a thought of God first. And it's no different than how they view the bride. Brother Brown was very clear in this saying the eternal thoughts of

God the bride was in there in his eternal thoughts. So that's how they equate Jesus and the bride being equal. And that's how we get the leap to say that we are God. So here's what we get to the nitty gritty and it's really subtle. You know I'd say it's as subtle as a serpent in the garden. Notice he begins with word as they thought expressed and that's really the crux of the matter. He said out of the thoughts of God came the word. So Jesus came out of the thoughts of God. He you know that word that was eventually dwelling in the body of flesh.

You know wasn't God himself according to this teaching as Father Son Holy goes to eternally existing. It was just a thought of God that came out and became known as the word a low God say form of God and then only became the fullness of God as God stepped into that form. So to me that that just goes contrary to the orthodox Christianity in that God as Father Son Holy Spirit distinct as three and yet one God you know eternally existing as what we have termed persons of Godhead and maybe in another episode I really go deep into

into that into that term persons. But in the message teaching because it's based on a one this side or one God it has to be one being with the father and the Holy Spirit being very same in every way or one person.

Then out of this person's thoughts came the word and so that was drilled in Jesus Christ was only the word. So he had a beginning and he came out of God's mind in the beginning.

So as simple as I can say this, this is exactly how this teaching makes the leap to make you a God similar to Jesus Christ because you were also the attribute, a thought that is now expressed here as the word of God on earth.

And that makes you, in a sense, equal to God, you know, you've got to say that spoonful of God and you can go create a world saying go live on it. So and beyond that, when God manifests himself in you, then you are fully acting as God himself.

And that's why they would make the leap to say you can begin creating things because you're speaking God's own word. Here's where it gets really dangerous. So when you're teaching this kind of doctrine, you too, friend, can speak the word of God.

Just as I speak the word of God, well, what happens is the people who are listening to the leader who is telling them they, they too can speak the word of God. Then the leader starts doing it to them.

The people who are listening, how do you argue with this? This is God speaking to me. I can't question what he is saying. What if, what if it's wrong? Oh my gosh, I can't question God.

So people shut off their critical thinking when you use this type of language in your speeches. But worse than that, it leads towards all kinds of abuse, spiritual abuse, obviously. But think of this from a, just from a human perspective.

So a person who starts to tell people that he is speaking as God starts to believe it. If he starts to believe it, if his personality is, if his brain is wired this way, some people have tendencies to want to govern people or be an authority, authority positions over people.

And so they start to use this word of God for commands. They tell people, you must do this. God has told me you must do this. Well, some people have narcissistic personality disorders or other disorders where they start feeding upon it to the level where they start to use this control and feel empowered by it.

And widespread problems, we've talked about this in many podcasts, widespread problems occur because of this, all kinds of abuse. So people, I won't mention the names of the people who've done it. We've talked about it on some of the podcasts, but some people use it for purposes of sex.

They can tell people that God has told me that you, my wife is about to die and you're going to be the next one. So let's, let's fool around or whatever. I don't even know how that conversation goes, but people start to do this because they feel empowered speaking.

the Word of God and having people believe this. Now, are they truly believing that they are speaking the words of God? I don't know. Some of the men and women who are doing this, I kind of question whether they themselves even believe it, but they recognize whether they believe it or not.

They recognize the power that it has over the person listening. And so it breeds elitism. You have people who are just feeding on this elitism and this type of doctrine where you're talking as God, it leads to all kinds of abuse, which that's another podcast for another day.

And it's a direct descendant from this manifested sons of God theology, which again is humanizing God. It's bringing God down to the human understandable level and what human can understand God. And back to our previous conversation, the fact that William Brannum had the gall to say that Jesus did not exist from the beginning, he was a thought in God's head and God spoke it in Jesus' game.

Not only does it defile of the scriptures, it is taking your thoughts and it's turning your thoughts into God. So people literally start worshiping thoughts in this weird religion. I don't even know how to explain that in a way people understand.

Your thoughts have so much power that they are the precursor to the spoken word. They're the substance that is coming out in the word of God. So not only is he creating this elitist place where you can have spiritual abuse widespread, he's diminishing God and he's literally taking Jesus down to the level where Jesus is nothing more than a thought.

Now to me, that's where it goes off the rails. Because I would believe that the son of God, the word was already existing with God, the father from eternity passed and he was born fully God in the manger and he never ceased to be God until he willingly gave up his spirit, own the cross, not in the garden.

So if Jesus actually willed to live while he was on the cross, no one could kill him. He had to willingly give up his life. He was God and flesh all the way up till then so until he willingly gave up his life as a human being of course.

Because he was a 100% God, a 100% man, he was a dual natured being. So this minister now says in him is to be a family, catch that he's not going to create a family.

God is going to be a family for he's sharing his only eternal life. Now I want you to catch what this minister said. He God's not creating people. He's actually going to be. He's only manifesting what he already is.

So that puts the bride, the thoughts and God is eternal. So you see how they say the bride is God. God is not creating. God is becoming by sending out his thoughts to earth.

Of course, in sinful flesh and then redeeming them by the work on the cross. So now you see how message believers who's understood this teaching has said, you know, I was always saved because look, I was in the thought, I was eternal in the thoughts of God.

I come from God, I go back to God. You know, Jesus, the only one that really could say that because He was fully God. He was the one that fully came out from God as God.

So this word should never be spoken by man. You know, only God can say that. And this minister continues with this thought as well. I'll quote, he said out of God as he begins to manifest himself out of God, the materialization of God's thoughts comes this term in the Bible called the Logos.

So the mind of God, the attributes of God are now going to be expressed in word form. So he said, Logos, so I'll go to what another minister has said about Logos and how he's just totally twisted a scripture and really, really trying to rewrite scripture, in fact.

But so what he's saying here is God's only manifesting his thoughts. But here he goes on, each of these prophets had anointing, a measure of Christ, so they became Christ, bringing the word to the people of Israel in each age.

So this messenger, this man to each age becomes a manifestation of Christ to the age. Jesus said, if you receive whomsoever I sent, you receive me. And if he sends a messenger and we reject the messenger, we have rejected Christ.

So here he is thrown in a little bit of extra such as if you reject the message of William Brannum as not being from God, then you've rejected Christ because many will say, you know, the message is Christ.

I would believe that I believe I could just present what one minister is saying here and it's pretty plain. You know, what I've just said, you know, whether they're going with this. William Brannum had a direction he was going, although it was so scattered in his preaching, you know, you had to really dive into it to really catch all the bits and pieces and put them together.

But I guess it's that way because he had to watch what he said to different audiences, you know, or he would risk being rejected outright. He couldn't just really be plain about what he was saying.

The latter rain group tended to go along with it, you know, because it was an alignment with their manifest sons of God doctrine, because it really made them a manifest son. I've mentioned this a few times, but when I left the Brannum cult, I read the Bible over and over and over and over many, many times covered a cover trying to wash all of this stuff out of my head.

And there were passages that really stuck out to me. I, you know, I wish I could go back and think through all of the different places. I wish I had actually logged them as I was going through, but it wasn't just simply the trivial and consequential doctrines that were in direct conflict with the Bible.

The core theology, the very basis for what everything he preached, we called it the message. The very foundation of the message was built on false... doctrine that had no relevance to scripture whatsoever. In fact, in many cases, like what you're talking about here, it's actually anti-scripture. He had this doctrine, you've probably mentioned this, I think, in one of the ones we've done, but he would say, Mary was nothing more but an incubator.

He was trying to be, he had this thing against women, apparently, and he was trying to be very offensive to Mary. But he tried to say that Jesus was not even human. He would actually dehumanize Jesus. And he said, Jesus was not even human. Mary was just an incubator, and Joseph had nothing to do with it. So this thing that was born of Jesus was not even human. But then he would try to twist even that, twist even his own words, and say that he was human. He died just a man on the cross, and he would say that he was the manifestation of God. He was a human, and then God

manifested himself in Jesus. And you, too, friend, can be manifested, son of God. Well, there's so many problems with it, not even just from William Brannum's own words, his own words and his own theology contradict each other. But I'm reading, for example, I'm reading the book of Luke after I left. And it talks about all of the events that are happening, the angel coming to Mary, says, the Holy Ghost will come upon you. Well, there's a thing, there's a phrase in the Bible that just undermines all of that. It says something to the effect that the holy, the holy one that's

going to be born of the shall be called the Son of God. So it's not, it's not a theology that you can take and make it fit with every part of the Bible. There's no way that you can make it fit.

And even William Brannum's own theology, it can't fit within his own theology. It's in contradiction. But all of it, all of us to say, it is just simply so that he can humanize Jesus to the level where people can understand what Jesus is, understand what God is in simple terms, so that he can tell them that they can become greater than this. They can do something bigger better than this.

Greater works than you, greater works shall you do, was a phrase that he would often say when he's doing this, year of God, year of little gods, all of these phrases. And that became core, core theology that built the entire New Apostolic Reformation. So this is very, very problematic and it's very, it's very deceptive when you think about it. He's just twisting little words here and there to make the Bible fit his agenda rather than making his agenda fit the Bible. So let me go a little further here and you'll see how the person of Christ as God born in flesh is diminished

and how the Son or the Word of God being born as a man in flesh is not really God as a person as the Father or the Holy Spirit is, but just a part of God or his attributes. So I would say if Jesus was just an attribute and we're his attributes, there's an equality there between us and Jesus.

You know, the Jesus was God in the beginning, then we have no equality with that. You know, otherwise, as they also teach, you know, you would, on some level, be dear to yourself, even when you were born on earth.

And to me, that's just blasphemy, John. So let me read on to what he said here and try to make this a little planer. He said, Mary was overshadowed by the Holy Ghost to bring forth a child, and as this child was birthed to the attributes of God.

As his child was birth, he said, the attributes of God were dropped into this child. He was born the Word of God, so the Word may flesh into up to Mungus. He says, but, and this is the key statement here, he does say this, but not yet quickened life of the Logus didn't come into the child at birth.

So here he's saying a child was born, attributes were dropped into the child, but then the very life of God was not in the child at birth. Now, to me, that's just not correct, and I would borderline say that's also diminishing Jesus Christ, because you're saying he was not born the Christ.

He was not born with the life of the Logus, he said it didn't come into the child. He said, and you'll see why in a moment, he said, but he was the fullness of the Word when he was born, and then he goes on in his ministry.

Now here's some quotes from the prophet in this day, the same Logus that was with Christ was not yet birthed to yet, yet he was the Word. He was not yet quickened to his ministry, but now as Jesus the living Word goes down to the River Jordan meets the prophet in the water, and when he's there in the water, then the Scripture says something very special happens as the Spirit of God settles upon him.

When we see the Spirit of God like a dove coming into this vessel, and now the Word is quickened into manifestation, and now he is the fullness of the Godhead bodily on earth. So after all that convoluted things he's saying there, he finally gets to the point of what he's trying to say.

He was saying Jesus was not God on earth or not the Godhead bodily on earth until he was quickened by the Spirit of God at the River Jordan. So you would say that Jesus all his life was never God really in flesh, the fullness of Godhead bodily until the Spirit of God came down.

Now to me the Spirit of God came down so John could see him, so he could actually identify who God was, and so God could declare his son to the world. This is my beloved son in whom I'm well pleased.

But me this is very contrary to the Scripture because you're saying that Jesus was not fully God until the baptism at the River Jordan. Exactly. Like I said, I read the Bible over and over, and there weren't just small simple things to be ignored.

There were huge glaring problems with what he was teaching. So like... We're talking here, he's being baptized, Jesus being baptized, and the Spirit comes on him. He was just a man until this is Brandeum's theology.

And then he would say that the Spirit left him in the Garden of Gethsemane. That was one of his Easter sermons. He literally said this in an Easter sermon of all things. But his concept of God was that Jesus was nothing more than a prophet.

He would say things like, Jesus could do not one single miracle until the Father first showed him a vision. And then he would proceed. William Brandeum would proceed to tell people that he's about to do miracles because he saw these visions of them.

So he's basically equating himself to Jesus. But what he's doing is he's carefully skipping parts of the Bible. And even while he said, you know, he would ridicule these ministers if you had to or take away from the Word of God, he would go off into these tangents.

He himself is doing the same thing that he's condemning other ministers for. The book of John, for example, Jesus says something to the effect. I think it's John 17. He says, now glorify me with your own self with the glory that I had from before the world was.

So he's literally saying, before the world existed, Jesus is saying this, before the world existed, I was. But that's not what William Brandeum is saying here. He's saying that Jesus was nothing more than a thought in the Father's head.

And the thought was spoken. It became the spoken word. At this spirit had not even come down with the spoken word. So you've got this weird contradiction. What does the spirit come into this?

Because Brandeum taught various forms of modalism and everything from one is penicostalism to trinitarianism, he taught. But when he was teaching this manifest at Sons of God, it was more of a modalistic form of God.

Where Jesus was the Father, Jesus was the Spirit. But then how do you make that word? Jesus was the word manifested into a human that was not quite human because he was not born of Mary.

And then the Spirit came down to fill him whenever he's being baptized. Well, what do you do with this? What's that spirit? And who is the Father that he's talking to while he has the Spirit?

None of it makes any sense. And John, just for Jesus, not to be fully God at the baptism of the River Jordan all the way up into the time he was 30 years old, you're making him something less than he really is.

The scripture says he was born Christ the Lord. So he was already the Lord. He was the Lord God in flesh. He didn't have to wait for God to come inside of him at the River Jordan.

And he also didn't have God leave him in the garden against Seminy. He totally, being found, of course, as God in flesh, he did submit himself to the will of the Father, the will that was in God in the beginning is that was to die for humanity, for lost humanity to show himself a...

savior. But even though we had those, it wasn't that he was not God in some parts of his life and then only God other parts of his life and then God had to leave him so he could die because he willingly gave up his life. He says, I lay down my life and I can take my life. No one takes my life from me. Jesus declared that. So we have to be very careful when we're speaking as they do, speaking of Jesus in these terms. And anytime you make Jesus less than God at any time, you know, you've gone off the rails. So John, I really

enjoyed today. It looks like our time has just gone by so fast and I didn't even get to the second minister I wanted to get to. You know, that's a whole another 30 minutes of speaking here. So I think I'll stop right there. I think, you know, we've gotten through most of what this minister I was speaking of says. And I think I'll have more even to come later. But I hope this is very informative, entertaining to your guests and look forward to going to the next round, you know, with you, John. Absolutely. Yeah, there's so many.

As you were talking, I was thinking of, man, I'd like to talk about that. I'd like to talk about this. There's so many different rabbit trails of things that we could go down. But in the end, it really comes down to this. I don't believe that William Brannum himself was a Christian. I don't believe that he believed in God at all. I've mentioned this before, whenever you believe in God, there's one thing that you at least must do. You must believe in the nature of God. And watching him teach modalism, oneness, pentecostalism, watching him pray to the persons of the Trinity, he's actually praying to the third person

of the Trinity in some sermons. And then condemning anybody who even says the word person, and he will say things like there, there is no such word in the Bible person of the Trinity.

There's no such word oneness in the Bible either, but you're teaching both. And so I don't believe that the man really believed what he was saying. I don't think he had any convictions because if you have convictions, you can't do this. You would, if you're teaching oneness and you start saying, well, it's, it's heresy to teach trinitarianism, then you start teaching it. Well, you have to at some point repent that you have done this because you've been teaching all of this, this doctrine. He never did this. I don't recall one single instance where he ever repented for

changing from oneness to pentecostal to motorists to trinitarian or the other. He just simply didn't care. And that's, that's really what this comes down to. He didn't care. He didn't care about the people. He didn't care if it was true doctrine, false doctrine, even the things that he said about himself. He didn't care if it was true or not, as long as the audience applauded. That's really what it comes down to. Did the audience applaud? So, so much more to do. I, I agree with you, we'll come back and do it later. So if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information,

you can check us out on the web. You can find us at www.Williams.com. dashbranum.org. From more about the dark side of Roy Davis and William Branum, you can read Persuasive Preacher, The Gifted Profit, and the Noble Politician. And from more about the new Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR, Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Automobile.

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