Exposing the Elijah Spirit Myth: From Jonestown to the NAR

Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at William-Branham.org and with me I have my co-host and friend, Laura Lynn Tyler Thompson, the host of Laura Lynn Live. Laura Lynn, it's good to be back and I'm a little bit excited about this episode and a little bit triggered by this episode both at the same time because I'm going to be getting into the heart of what is believed in Branhamism which was a very authoritarian cult. It is, you know, thinking back is

very painful for me. So I'm going to go through some pain but I have to give you the background of this really so you can understand the complexity of what I'm about to say and it ties into something that you were bringing up. So I think all of this is going to tie together and hopefully be both informational and entertaining to the listeners but I'm excited about that, John and I'm always happy to be with you. I learned so much. I've got people telling me that it's quite revolutionary what you're presenting and that it's giving them a grasp on

what happened to them because many people have similar stories or have tie-ins to Branhamism and you are making it so clear and so all of us thank you for that. Well this is a clear scary thing when you really think about what this is that I'm about to say. So Jim Jones, he was the head of the People's Temple, he went to Johnstown, Guyana, Big Massacre, people believed his theology unto their death. They would willing, some of them were killed but many of them willingly died. I've actually listened to the death tapes and it is both tragic,

scary and triggering for me because as I'm listening to Jones speaking before everybody is, as they're taking the, you know, the Kool-Aid, he is saying things that I heard in my church and when I heard this and I'm researching Jones, who is Jones, how is it tied to all of this, I suddenly realized that the doctrinal foundation that Jones had, the one that led them to that mass destruction, is the same doctrinal foundation that I grew up with that my kids were in. So we were at the same risk if you understand the complexity of that. And as I began

working with the Jones Town Foundation, they were giving me all kinds of different research tools and information that I didn't have on Jones. So, I started to understand who he was, I started listening to his actual sermons before, long before any of the people's temple out west.

And I'm hearing the Indiana version of Jones. And then I'm listening to a faith healing line where Jones is praying for the sick, the people are coming up. And there's this one lady that looks at Jim Jones and says, you are Elijah.

A revelation how called me, Elijah. And a revelation how called my daughter, Elijah. So I saw the cripple coming on, crudges me, wrapped out and left the crudges behind us. Something there. And I'm coming over to wherever the backache in my kidneys was just so badly in past the Jones revelation called me, he put his hands on me.

And my heart stopped. I'm sitting there thinking, oh my gosh, I can't believe this because I had just heard the Jones town death tapes. And in Brannemism, we believe that William Brannem was Elijah the prophet.

And we were specifically, almost every sermon that I heard. I can't think of one that did not reference Malachi chapter 4, verses 5 and 6. It reads, in the KJV, it reads, behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.

And he will turn the heart of the fathers to the children. And the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite them with the curse. When you read great and dreadful, great and terrible is another version of the variation of the translation.

In the ancient language, this just means something great or awe-inspiring, amazing, something big, something unbelievable thing is about to happen. But when you read it in today's language, dreadful is filled with dread. You know, it's something that you're looking down upon, not something that you're looking forward to.

When other Christians read this, they think immediately to the gospels, whenever, as Jesus is being baptized and John the Baptist, they look at this and they think, that's John the Baptist that it's referring to, the great and dreadful day of the Lord, the Lord has come.

And there's a reason why Christians see it one way. And the laterane movement, the Brannum called, they see it a different way. And it comes down to something that we've mentioned a few times, Christian identity.

And in Christian identity, they believe that the Old Testament could be read in a two-fold manner. It was written to the ancients, but it's also written to us. So in Brannumism, we were taught to read this and believe that part of Malachi's prophecy, specifically chapter three, was referring to John the Baptist.

And then the second half was referring to William Brannum. That's how we were trained. And where I'm building up to, and I'll stop here and let you talk for a second, but where I'm building up to is this.

You have to... a day, this idea of this kingdom. And if you're Christian and you look at this kingdom that's being built by the New Apostolic Reformation, it doesn't really resemble the kingdom that Jesus was describing.

And you have all of these predators and scoundrels that are leaders of this kingdom. And you're wondering, how can this be? How can they be part of this kingdom? You have to understand that there was a movement being created.

And it had many of its roots, like I said in Christian identity and white supremacy. All of these different, Steve Montgomery calls it the converging apostasy. We had this convergence of apostasy, the birth of the New Apostolic Reformation.

But there's a piece to this that I think a lot of people miss. And that is, think today of the Seven Mountains, mandate the kingdom, theology that the NIR had, think of Dutch sheets.

So who is Dutch sheets? He was a former director of Christ for the Nations Institute, where the institute, where many people are trained in this deliverance ministry that's working with many networks within the NAR, led by, founded by Gordon Lindsay, who was William Branham's campaign manager.

When William Branham died, after the entire movement believed that William Branham was the return of Elijah the Prophet. William Branham died in 1966, they held his memorial service. Right after his memorial service, Gordon Lindsay started working on this book called, The Man Who Did Not Die, Elijah.

And it goes through and tells you the biblical story of Elijah. But the last chapter of this is entitled, Will Elijah come again? And what he's referring to is not only William Branham as this Elijah figure, but what Gordon Lindsay did was brilliant in that he took the Elijah theme, and he applied it to a spirit of a movement.

And he started going through systematically this passage from Malachi and saying, this part applied to John the Baptist and Jesus, but this other part, it applies to this kingdom that we're creating. And Elijah is coming to fulfill this, the Elijah spirit.

It's coming in our movement, the new iteration of manifest sons of God. All of these things were rooted in this theme. Wow, that is so eye-opening. And such a sign of the delusion that was being presented to everyone as if this man is Elijah.

And after everything I've learned about William Branham from you, from his history, you always have the receipts behind what was going on. It's shocking, and it's a delusion and a deception. You can almost go down through the new apostolic reformation and just start naming names.

Lance Wal now. They... He is a person that's heavily promoted by Christ for the nations. Cindy Jacobs, she's well known in A.R. circles as a prophetess. She has links to Christ for the nations.

I think she might even be mentioned on the website or yet. I know some of their literature. Bill Johnson, you have all of these figures that Christ for the nation is either promoting training, working with, or in the network to receive students to be trained.

And they're being trained in this deliverance ministry school. A lot of people don't realize that that school was a, was the result of Gordon Lindsay when he worked with Brannum. They were starting to create the idea that they, they would have deliverance seminars.

And these deliverance seminars would come train all of your ministers, they would learn. It became a training tool for the Joel's Army version that they were trying to create before Brannum died. After Brannum died, what this was developing into Christ for the nation's institute.

And the, the version that I have is not the original version, but it is actually published by Christ for the nation's institute. So they are still publishing this idea that this Elijah spirit is coming back.

For me, where this gets really problematic is this. I've read the Bible over and over after leaving. And one of the things that you begin to understand when you compare that systematic way of thinking to what the Bible is saying, there was the, the law of Moses, there were the curses, there were the blessings.

You read through the book of kings, you find people falling into idolatry, the curses came upon Israel, the final curse was death. And if you understand the Old Testament, you understand that they needed redemption, they needed a savior.

Then you have the Gospels, Jesus comes, he is the Redeemer, he is the one who is restoring all things, restoring it to where the people are now united with God, they're not under the curse.

It is literally describing everything that Malachi said. And so it's being fulfilled in the Gospels, if you understand the Bible, if you understand the Gospels. But what they have done is they've twisted it so they can say, no, the Gospel doesn't apply to this situation.

It applies to only a portion of Israel. And then we are the new Israel, we are the one that, whenever you read the last chapter of Malachi 4, we're the ones that's being restored, not Israel.

And when you do that, you're actually taking away the application of the Gospel to ancient Israel. That has all kinds of ramifications. And you know, the names that we bring up that you bring up are like pivotal to what?

First of all, Dutch sheets, everyone's listening to the give him 15, Cindy Jacobs and all of these others. And, you know, it's troubling in our spirits, and I think this is why when I, you know, mentioned some of these names, sometimes on my broadcast, like the feed, the live feed goes really crazy.

They don't, everybody's waking up to the fact that something's not right with this teaching. We talked briefly about Dean Briggs before, but this manifests sons of God and Joel's army and all of that.

So it's not like these guys are putting this out right in front of us, and that's why we have to figure out what they believe. And then people like yourself expose it, and everyone needs to know.

There's only so much that I can present through history for people to understand it. You actually really need to go back to the Bible. If you understand, just simply the basic concepts of the Bible, you begin to understand that what their teaching doesn't quite fit.

And it reminds me, I don't know if you remember those cubes that the children have with the square and the circle and the triangle, and you put the block into the cube. Well, it's like trying to take the triangle and wedge it into the circle hole.

It just doesn't quite fit, but if you take a hammer and you beat it hard enough, you can make it go into the box, right? So for me, when I look at all of this, I look at it with the idea that if you could read the Bible for yourself without the lens that they're trying to give you, and understand what it's saying to you, all of this nonsense that they have presented, all of it can be just eliminated.

Not a bit of it has the foundation rooted in the Bible, but it does have the foundations as we've talked about in many of these other themes. Christian identity, for example, they wanted the idea that the, whenever Gordon Lindsay began working with the, I think it's called the Anglo-Saxon Federation.

I've got, in some of the podcasts we've done, I've put some newspaper articles up about that. But this was a movement that was truly believing that there were two races of people on the earth.

One that was the result of the sexual union of Eve and the serpent and the Garden of Eden, and one that was the good guys. And so you had this good or bad, black or white, Thor and Loki.

You literally had the types of religion that they had in the ancient world. It's us versus them. And the movement as it developed, as the themes began to integrate into the laterane movement, that us or them mentality continued so much so that they started pointing fingers at all of the denominational churches, and said, we are the true seed, but you are in the cold form of denominations.

And so they created this dividing line between Christians themselves. And you know the Bible passages as well as I do. There are passages that talk about those people who come and try to... to sever the body of Christ.

Well, this literally was a movement intended to sever the body of Christ. That is so scary. And I remember you telling me about this serpent seed theology. And you know, in all my years of Christian dumb and all of that, you might hear my dog in the background, but I've never, you know, I haven't heard it, but I do know like if you look it up, people actually believe in all of this stuff.

And I guess that's how we get to manifest sons of God. Is that right? Like because they're like, that's the good side. And so we get to be like super, super beings. And especially if you're the chosen or whatever it did, it's like a leadism.

That's it exactly, but it's a little bit more complex than that. So early Pentecostalism, the Azusa Street Revival, the birth of Pentecostalism, they took a chapter from Joel 2 that talked about behold, I was pouring my spirit upon all flesh.

What they tried to establish was the idea that the day of Pentecost mentioned in the New Testament was the old reign. And we are now the new ladder reign. That's early Pentecostalism before the ladder reign movement existed.

Well, what happened is that began to die out. And so they used that same passage to say that Pentecostalism was the former reign to our new, new ladder reign. And so they called it the new order of the ladder reign.

So you had a little bit of complexity there. But the Joel's army theme, it does come from Joel 2. It's talking about the Canker worm, the Palmer worm, the caterpillar. And what's interesting about that is, again, if you read the Bible, none of it makes any sense.

The army that it's describing in Joel 2 was not the good guys. It was the plagues that was being sent. When you read about the army, but there's a specific phrase that's mentioned in there, your sons and daughters will dream dreams, your old men will see visions.

They began to focus on the sons and daughters. So at the Sharon orphanage, they tried to train the young people to get into this movement to basically summon a spirit. And if you think of Christian mysticism and you think of spiritualism, this gets really scary stuff.

But they're trying to summon essentially this Elijah spirit. They want to summon the Elijah that is coming before the great and terrible day. And so they're trying to train an army of youth to do this.

So it's a really twisted theology when you think about it. And none of it, again, if you read the Bible, none of it makes any sense. You don't want to create an army that are these plagues that are coming to the people.

Yeah, it really doesn't make sense. And but they're teaching it. I know Art Lucia had a youth group. And I think it was called Joel's Army. And he was teaching some similar things. So it's very important that we fully understand what is being presented here and the fallacy of it, what is and what isn't right.

And how I'm not understanding, actually, John, how any of that means that apostles or prophets are elite and have special powers, like it goes so far as to say, sometimes that you won't die or you're, I don't know, healings and all of this kind of thing, right? It's like, it goes really far if you dig into it.

Well, it goes back to something I said earlier. What they've done with this movement is they've taken the gospel, the gospel of Jesus Christ, Jesus came to pay the final penalty, which was death and restore everything, restore all things.

He is the one who's literally, when you read Malachi and you read all the way up to chapter four, it is talking about the coming of Christ, talking about John the Baptist immediately before this.

If you understand that and understand the relationship between Jesus coming to pay the penalty, which was death, the ancient old covenant, the result of the mosaic law and the failures of the law, that is the gospel.

Whenever you understand all of this, it's not really that difficult to understand, but what they did was they twisted it so that it was a slightly different gospel. It sounds the same. They're mentioning many of the same things, but what they're doing is they're taking the restoration of all things that Jesus did and they're twisting it so that it can happen in a later day in this Elijah spirit.

So that's how you begin to have this restoration movement that comes, this new kingdom that's coming. All of the passages that Jesus is referring to when he talks about the kingdom, now it's no longer what Jesus is talking about in the New Testament, it's now this new thing, this new kingdom.

So restoration changes, the kingdom changes, but the bigger consequence of this, behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day. If you read that such that this is John the Baptist and then Jesus is the greatest thing, that's the gospel.

If you read it in their terms, Jesus wasn't the greatest thing, there will be this new thing that's coming, this new Elijah spirit. So think of the end of days, think of the right before Armageddon, they're not looking for Jesus to come, they're actually looking for this Elijah figure to come.

So they're taking all of the work that is intended for Jesus to do when he returns, it goes right onto the head of a human. So essentially what they've done is they've rewritten the DNA of the gospel and recreated what Chuck Smith called it the Moses model.

Basically, it is an apostolic figure who is the one who is going to do all of... the things that Jesus is returning to do. Okay, so this is so very wrong when you think about it, the way that you're saying it, John, this is aberrant.

So the hard part is to get it written down in such a form somewhere that you can actually put your finger on it because I think that's what happened with Dean Briggs when he said, okay, okay, I manifest sons of God and I believe in William Brannum, all of that.

Like the friends that were with him had to literally and for those that don't know, they need to go back and watch your interview on this. But this is where you don't know what they believe until you press them until it kind of like just they have to tell you, right?

Like is that common or is Bill Johnson or any of these other people actually putting this in writing? Well, that's where it gets even stranger. So when you look at the ancient mystery cults, the way of mystery cult works in the ancient world was, they had this divine mystery, whatever it was.

In the cult of Dionysus, they had this idea that they could get into the spiritual ecstasy and get into a frenzy and go rip the flesh off of animals. And that was their mystery.

On the outside, you look in, this is just a group of people, we don't know that they're doing this weird thing but that's what they're doing to get into the spirit or whatever it was that they wanted.

They were actually bringing down all kinds of sin and I won't even describe the things that they did. It was awful. But in a mystery cult, the outsiders can't know your mystery. Otherwise, it's no longer a mystery.

And that's the way in which these esoteric religions work. They have a mystery, they want to conceal it. And they will often mention that we have the mysteries fulfilled. That was a theme that we heard over and over and over in Brannemism.

And if you go back through the recordings of William Brannum, you can see that even during the laterane movement when he's widely popular, you have hundreds of ministers who are subscribing, either subscribing to him or joining him and participating in his revivals, they all believe this mystery theme.

But to the outside of what is the mystery, we don't know what's interesting is, even if you're on the inside, they never fully tell you what the mystery is. So William Brannum claimed that he opened the Seven Seals.

We truly believe that he had the revelation of the Seven Seals. He knew the mystery that was underneath. The Seven Seals from the book of Revelation that no man was worthy to open according to the book.

We believe that he did, but he couldn't tell us. And so today, when you ask any minister, you try to corner them and what was the mystery behind the Seven Seals, you get different answers because they all try to give their own answer.

But when they get into... or room together, none of them have the same opinion of what is the mystery, so they don't really want to talk about it because the other guy might start arguing with them.

So now, broaden this to the New Apostolic Reformation. They all have, like you mentioned, he goes back to William Brannum. Well, there isn't a single person who can build their ministry off of William Brannum and be consistent with another person who does.

On every single subject, William Brannum taught both sides, otherwise he might offend the people who were working with him. So you can make it say black, you can make it say white, you can make it say red, green.

Literally every doctrine in so much that he would go to a Onus Pentecostal group and say that anybody who even uses the word Trinity is of the devil. They've taken the mark of the beast.

There is no such word as Trinity in the Bible, he would say this. But then he would go to another church and he would say, he would even pray. He would pray, thank you God for sending the third person of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit, who's in our hearts tonight.

We have accepted the Holy Spirit. So he has actually accepted the Trinity in the second church, but he's rejected it in the first. So two people reading and understanding what he's saying, they get two different ideas.

Everyone who is built on top of this, it's like this pain of glass that shatters in a million different directions. You don't know which pieces go together, so they all can't tell you their mystery.

They themselves don't even understand it. And it seems like it feels like maybe they kind of make it up and they kind of feed it themselves with some ideas which are kind of ego gratifying.

Like maybe I have this revelation, whatever it is and I have an idea of what it is and I'm not sure if they do or know it or my other guy that I associate with what he really thinks it is.

But I'm kind of, I really like this because this might mean that I'm important, that I'm special and I might get these special powers or whatever to me. It's just ego gratifying and it takes our focus off of God and off the simple gospel message.

I'm really grasping what you're saying onto this new, completely totally thought, this new thought of what this is about and it all makes them feel better. And a lot of these people are really narcissists.

It's narcissism and so they easily accept it like Jim Jones who you started with. This guy thought he was all that in a bag of chips so much so he took people to their deaths.

He thought he was so significant. Absolutely. And that's really what's so scary about this because when you get in that mindset, not everybody intends to end up like this when if you go back and listen to some of the sermons.

by Jim Jones. You'll think he's just an average Pentecostal preacher. You know, this is a, in fact, many of the things he said, he was praised in the local newspapers for his work with the poor, for his ministry. He was actually respected when he was in Indianapolis.

What happens is, when you get in that mindset and you're connecting with the crowd, Bob Scott and I just did a podcast on this. We've talked about it a few times, but there is that energy that flows as a speaker and you get it. So a football player, when he gets in the crowd, he's on fire and you see him when he leaves the stadium, he might act a little bit differently, might not see the same guy, same with a rock star. They get on to the stage, they feel that energy. What they're feeling actually is a dopamine hit. When you get into

that excitement, you start to release chemicals in your brain and if you continue to do it, you become addicted to those chemicals. So as you're connecting with the crowd, they're feeling the excitement too and many of them also have the same releases of hormones. So as they continue to come, they become addicted to it. So there's this weird high that happens, but that's just, you know, rock concert aside, take this town to the religious level. Now you've got a framework of people who believe that we have a Moses model. We are the ones who are coming to restore all things. We must restore all

things because Jesus won't return if we do. We have to have through our prophetic and apostolic power. We have to be the ones to claim dominion, to wipe away and restore all things. Then Jesus returns. So the mission changes, instead of the gospel of saying go make disciples of others, it's literally go conquer others. So the idea of Joel's army is it fits into this. It's literally a mission to conquer those who do not believe as you do. And that's not what the gospel is.

So when you say conquering others, is that rejection of anyone who's not going to buy into what I'm saying? So you're not one of us. You know, you quickly, you destroy relationships by, you know, a natural force because they don't, they're not buying what you're dishing out. So this is very divisive, then I guess. Absolutely. Whenever I was in the group, the way it worked was this, if somebody seemed to be receptive to whatever you had to say about the cult and the cult leader, you would entertain the idea and you would try to get them to join. That's how recruiting works.

The moment in which they reject it, you totally cut them off. There is no way that they're going to be converted. So now we move on to the next person. That's how missionaries work and within a very destructive cult. What's interesting is there are varying levels of destruction within the group.

So, in Brannemism, you had people who actually went out and they tried to do real missionary work. You had others who would just cut them off, blindly cut them off. But as a destructive cult, the moment that they started to believe and then came in contact with some critical information, the moment that they left the group, I can't think of anyone who is in any of the levels of destructiveness that didn't just cut off the ones who left.

So, that's you end up with the shunning, you end up with abandoning, father separating from children, et cetera. That mindset flows through the entire movement. And that mindset was actually at the foundation, whenever people like Dutch sheets is talking about, we believe William Brannem, the years that they were claiming that he was in his full element, that was the years when all of this that I came from was created.

So, they're believing in this idea that you do cut people off. We're on a mission and anybody who's not with us on that mission, they're either with us or against us, we're going to cut them off and we call them cannon fodder, which basically we don't care if they die.

Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started, or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism, transition through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation? You can learn this and more on William Brannem Historical Research's website, William-Brannem.org.

On the book's page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen McCummery, John McKinnon and others, with links to the paper, audio and digital versions of each book.

You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top.

And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching. On behalf of William-Brannem Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.

I could just ask, because I bet you a lot of people have questions about Dutch sheets and what you're saying. You have mentioned him very specifically. Is he definitely not? Do you have any indication that he believes in this sort of mystery gospel, or is it kind of like piecing it together?

I mentioned him specifically because in connecting to the New Apostolic Reformation, and the answer is clearly yes, but in connecting to the New Apostolic Reformation, I was going through this theme specifically, this Elijah, the man who did not die written by Gordon Lindsay, who founded Christ for the Nations, Dutch sheet was an executive director for Christ for the Nations.

So that only... as he believe it, he is teaching the same type of theology. He was a member of the school. I don't believe he still is, but in the mid, what was it, 2013 or 12, he was an executive director for the company that published this book.

So this book, is it still available and is there like parts of it that can be cited to show incorrect theology? I received this copy today. This very day I was trying to order it so I could get it before you and I talked.

But Charles Paisley and I, Charles has a copy of this and in our Revival History series, we actually build up to this book because this book is actually more pivotal than people realize. So you're leading up to the death of William Branham.

The movement as a whole believes that he was the return of Elijah. He is the fulfillment of Malachi 4.5. That's the reason why T.L. Osborne, who was high in the word of faith, prosperity gospel.

That's the reason he said that this was more than a man. This was a God man. It's this Elijah theme. They believed that he was Elijah. He was restoring all things. But then he died and nothing was restored.

So when this happens through cognitive dissonance, you try to understand, well, wait a minute. We believe that he was gonna restore all things. Now he's dead. What does this mean? So Gordon Lindsay took charge to spiritualize it.

It's the spirit of Elijah. It's not William Branham that we think this is going to come on the corporate body of Christ. That's what he started to frame this as. This is being published about the same time that earned Baxter, who is William Branham's other campaign manager.

He starts forming the shepherding movement with Don Basham, Derek Prince, some Charles Simpson, I believe, five people created the shepherding movement. And they created this authoritarian hierarchy of control that was literally the, almost call it the prototype for the New Apostolic Reformation.

They're creating an authoritarian pyramid scheme in which the five at the top were the super apostles. The ones below it are under governance of the super apostles, all the way down to the rank and file member.

So that structure was being created. All of these people are trying to understand, they're trying to reconcile, okay, William Branham died. What do we do with this? How do we, how do we move forward?

And one of the ways that they move forward is the Elijah spirit is coming in the corporate body of this movement, but we need to, we need to take more control because the end of days is drawing near and we're not in a state as a church where we can fulfill these scriptures ourselves.

So we have to move forward, we have to become more diligent. in authoritarian control. Wow, and that makes sense because of the control that some of these big mega ministries now have and how very strange they are. Some of them, even really strange things coming to light, and I don't know if it ties into branemism at all, but the Kabbal, the religion of Kabbalah, and looking at ancient old texts, so you can sort of bring in, like some people are bringing in the Torah, the Talmud, and these other writings, ancient writings that have, you know,

strange things in them, and that all gets tied into, and it's like very cultish, and they present it like it's God's truth when they're just people do in these high level big money, mega ministries, want control over everybody, and so strangely there's been this, you know, raising of concerns about what Robin Bullock is teaching lately, and it's Kabbalah teaching, it's sort of mysticism from Israel writings and different things that he ties all in, but a guy ended up dying in his office, a tragic death and a sudden death, and he didn't go to the guy's funeral, it was a key person

in their ministry, and then over the next few months he keeps dropping that there's, you know, he's seen an anionis and safair a death, well this guy was an awesome man apparently by all accounts, he was a good man that was kind of a bit of a problem for Robin because he was calling out some of the things that he sees. Now that story is unfolding, so I don't know much more other than to say, this seems to be problematic when these big leaders want power, want to retain the money, have to have this mystery about them, teach and kind of draw in all kinds of things that are

kind of mystical, and even Bill Johnson doing things like that, bringing in new age, that it just seems so fun. Okay kids, let's all lie on the floor and try to have a trip to heaven right now, like literally doing mystical, crazy stuff, unbiblical, and this has been rising, it's like a form of witchcraft, I would say, I don't know what you think about that, but mysticism, we could probably do 10, 15 podcasts if I were to go through the history of what we were taught to believe, so like all of these NAR movements that are the Moses models, they all have what is called,

they have different names for, but essentially they're prophetic histories. I hop KC actually called it the prophetic history, and it's a focus on the human- not a focus on God, if you understand what this is. It's hero worship, right? Well, in our hero worship and Brannemism, one of the pillars of the story was that he kept encountering fortune tellers and he would call them a mystic woman, and they would tell his fortune of how the stars and the planets aligned on the day of his birth. It sounds so silly talking through it now, but all of this

was happening, and he received this from a fortune teller, and that's a huge part of his, they call it his life story. So this is the life story that is being sold to the Laterane movement. If you go back through all of his recordings, they even brand it like this. Gordon Lindsay, who founded Christ for the Nations, who published this book, would publish this as the life story in the Voice of Healing magazine, which was distributed among all of the evangelists embedded in this are these esoteric mysticism themes in so much that we actually demoted Jesus of the Bible so that we

could elevate ourselves to his level, and we did that through what William Brannem called as the, well, he even used the word mystical, now I'm thinking about it. The mystical union between the Christ and the bride is some of the series of sermons he had, and what he tried to say was this that he would reference the passage in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was made flesh among us. He would, from John 1-1, he would say that Jesus was actually the result of a thought made manifest. So if you think about that, God had a thought

and Jesus appeared, and then when Jesus came to earth, he was this weird mystical figure. William Brannem said he was powerless before the people. He had to see a vision first from God before he could do anything, and he was neither human nor God in this weird form, because Brannem would say Jesus had to die as a man because you can't kill God. He would say things like this, but he would also say that Mary was not his mother. So this was a man who was not born of a mother, who was not God, who had to die as a man, and the whole gospel just becomes really twisted

when you think of this. The reason he did this was because of the manifested sons of God doctrine, which you mentioned earlier, he believed that Jesus was the ultimate manifestation of God until this Elijah figure. So we had Jesus of the Old Testament, we have Elijah of the New Testament, Elijah of the New New Testament, which is essentially his words and his recordings. The reason he did this is because he wanted to say that we have this mystical union between Christ and the bride. We were...

We were thought of by God before the world was formed, so therefore we are just like Jesus in that we were a thought made manifest today. And we will be in dude with this power from the manifested sons of God theology.

We will become like gods. And from this was birth many things. I'm certain that you've thought through the themes, but you can tie this back to the word of faith movement, the NARs, little gods, theology.

All of this was built on that framework. Wow, that's just crazy. What you just said about all of these beliefs, like literally he wasn't, like Mary wasn't his mother.

I mean, it's just not even Christian anymore. Absolutely. And it twists, because he's twisted the gospel, it's a new and different gospel, but because he's twisted it, you can't make the Jesus of the Bible fit within the new gospel.

So I'm certain you're shocked, Jesus had no mother. That doesn't make sense. Jesus even said, he called his mother by name. So when you twist it like this, you're rewriting the DNA of the Bible and you're rewriting the DNA of who Jesus is.

It's a different gospel, different Bible, and now you have a different Jesus. And there are numerous passages talking about men who will come and preach a different Jesus. That's literally what this movement was based upon.

Here's where it gets really scary and problematic. You have people like Bill Johnson, you have the God's Generals guy, I'm drawing a blank on his name. The ones who are saying that William Brennan was a good man, he was God's general, and then he went astray.

Everything that I'm talking about to this point is during the years that they think he didn't go astray. They think in the latter years, towards the end of his life, he formed an obstructive cult.

The cult still exists and we can see their destructive cult. So they brand that as the years that he went astray. But all of this horrific theology that I've mentioned, this was during the height of his movement, not the latter part of his movement.

This is really eye-opening. What can we do I'm wondering to get the word out? People, podcasters, you know, they've got social media opportunities to just put certain quotes of what Brandon said that would be mind-blowing.

Is there anything like that, like where there's actual comments that he's actually made so that it can kind of begin getting out there that if you've put your hope, because I know Steve Holmstrom, good friend of Art Lucy and all of them, they worship Brandon.

They want the Brandon anointing and mantle. They want to be just like him. This is... a bunch, you know, just recently on Daystar. And it's, it's so, you would think that this is kind of some weirdness, but it's actually going very mainstream.

It's a double-edged sword. So I have my YouTube channel leaving the message, which has the podcast and the research videos. Before this, my website and my YouTube channel, my website was called SeakyTheTruth.com and I had a matching website, YouTube channel. I published this series called Did You Know. The cult had published things that was intended for children, little memes, I guess you would say. They said, did you know? And they would have a quote by brand of some ridiculous, nonsensical thing. The children were being indoctrinated with this. So I countered this with these short viral videos. Did you know? And I would say things

like, did you know? Here's a quote of brand name, Jesus had no mother. Here's a quote of brand name, Jesus was not God. He was human because you can't kill God. I started to publish these things and as it started to catch on, as people started to see these, I made it all the way up to the point where I'm now talking about Jim Jones. I got a very sophisticated attack against my website, my YouTube channel, my Facebook. I was literally at work one day at a client site and my phone started just buzzing off, buzzing like crazy. And Gmail has been hacked. YouTube

has been hacked. YouTube copyright strike one, two, three, with three strikes on YouTube, everything comes down. Eventually, all of it came down and the attack was severe. There were things that they attacked technology in my house, actually physical hardware in my house. Whenever all of this happened, I lost a very expensive piece of hardware. So they will stop at nothing to bring it down if you make people aware. So it goes back to the mystery conversation we had before. When you're in the group and you're speaking amongst yourselves, you can say all of the nonsistical things and people will believe it and worship it, the worshipping brand name. But

when the outsiders learn of this, well, that's our mystery. We can't let it known to the outside world. So that becomes very problematic for a mystery cult. Why do they care? Why would they go to such, you know, I'm really tempted right now and I don't know if you've been using GROC and I don't want to do stuff on your show that, you know, GROC, like so we have X accounts like used to be Twitter at X now. And I don't know if you're on X. But when you sign up for X, you get GROC. So

GROC is the new AI. I have absolutely been blessed to pieces by the knowledge. You know, the word of God says in the last. knowledge will increase. So for instance, if I say I want to know about all the times that demons

cried out against Jesus or if I want to know about witches, which is something I presented on a recent show, it just gives me where witches are mentioned in the Bible and it has like commentary and stuff like that. You know, and I don't know if you're a game, but if I said, do you have William Branham quotes? We could see what it says. So what you're talking about is the spreading of awareness through different medias in this case, Grock, but other AI platforms.

So here's what people need to know. Whenever you're doing a search on something, say the Bible, and you're searching the King James version, this is literally an index of many different platforms, whether it's books or media or websites, AI is just consuming information. Sometimes that information can be correct, sometimes it can be incorrect. And this really gets to the heart of what we're talking about here as far as the cover up by these calls. So when you type in a search and you're trying to find, does the Bible say this or that? Well, in almost every instance

of it finding the King James version or the ESV or the NIV, it is finding an exact replica. So it's through a majority of the consensus of information, it can give you a fairly accurate answer. It can't give you a spiritual answer by no means. And you also have to qualify and make sure that what it gave you was correct because AI has issues. It's a software. It can return hallucinations. But here's the dangerous part. And here is why I do what I do. Whenever it is indexing information, say it's websites, we have all of these different movements, all of these

different cult groups and even not quite destructive cult groups, but leading into destruction. I'll say it like this. They're putting out misinformation. That's why whenever I publish histories, I get all this backlash. They say, no, that's not true. And I put all of the references in my book. So I'm putting the actual literal sources. What is happening is AI can index those sources.

But at the same time that I'm putting out information, there are, for my one, there's a thousand different people who are putting out misinformation. And some of them, not even purposefully, they just don't know their own histories because the cults have covered up their histories. So what you're talking about literally spreading awareness. Can we spread awareness where people, no matter where they search, they're going to find the truth. The cold, hard fact of all of this is that unless people dive in themselves and unless they dig in themselves, it's going to be very difficult to find accurate truth because there's so much information out

there. I've been trying very meticulously to document the truth. to go through and paint all of the histories that have been erased, which is quite a big deal. And sadly, like if you search for the Bible in AI, you're gonna find fairly accurate result because every copy of the Bible that it finds is exactly the same.

But no two stories are the same with many of the cults. As I mentioned earlier, you've got Brandon preaching one in this brand of preaching trinitarian. How can I software decide which one he really was when he was neither?

You know what I mean? So you have to get to the heart of the information, which is factual, which is historical. And from that, you start building pillars of truth. Eventually, if enough people do this, if enough people are starting to voice their findings of truth, eventually software platforms like you're mentioning will find a different consensus.

But there has to be enough people who are overwhelming the software with the truth that they're actually overcoming all of the misinformation that's out there. It's a big deal. People really need to be spreading awareness.

That's what you're driving at with the question and that's why I do what I do. People need to be spreading awareness. Unless there are enough voices out there who are saying, no, we will not stand for the false thing.

We want to know the truth. Do not cover up your histories. Do not paint pictures of history that are invalid because you can't build, it's sinking sand. You can't build all of these towers on sinking sand and expect that they're going to continue to stand.

Eventually, somebody's going to find out and it's going to topple. So that's why I do what I do. We want to get the correct information out there. And that's getting you on the show where you can help share this puzzle of finding out what is this mess.

I think that's very helpful because people can watch you as you go through this as well. So getting the information out there for me is the key. This is pivotal to us understanding where we've come from, how this happened.

And my concern is people not listening, like thinking that persons like yourself or me, like we're the fringe, where we just don't get it or we're some kind of heretics. But in actuality, you've been researching all the facts.

And so this is so scary that people are so deceived and they are literally now they have been steeped and bred in it. So as hard as it was for you to come to the realization that you were in a cult and you had to come out of it.

And I did resonate earlier. You said something, you don't know how it was with us growing up, but yeah, we thought we were it. We were told, if anyone leaves glad tidings, you're out of the will of God, you're going to someplace that doesn't have the same Holy Spirit power.

And our church was like, you know, you just don't leave. this was said from the pulpit, I remember that. So this elitism, this control factor is an interesting, it's an interesting, well, it's an indicator that this is the kind of, this is not good, you know, if somebody's actually trying to pull this stuff off, but people do get suckered in. Yes, they get suckered in and I was a sucker. You know, I've had people contact me. How do people get trapped in these movements?

And interestingly, it's not always the less intelligent people who get sucked in. It often it's the more intelligent people because you go to church thinking that you're going to hear the gospel and you just kind of shut off the critical thinking when you're sitting there. So they start talking and there are manipulation techniques that are used. If you know what those are, you start to pick up on them whenever you listen and critically think, but most people don't critically think. So they just turn off their thinking.

They come in to try to rest, relax, recover from the week. They sit there on Sunday and they think they're hearing the gospel, but they're hearing something quite different. And I think if people were to just turn on their critical thinking just a little bit, there would be this mass exodus as people leave this thing. So very, very glad that we were able to escape. I was, I'm glad that you were able to escape. And I hope that we have said something that would help somebody else to wake up. And maybe they too can escape.

So thank you so much for doing this. Thank you. I appreciate it, John. Once again, always a pleasure. Thank you. Well, if you want more information, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at William-Brandom.org and Lord Lynn Live. For more about the dark side of the new Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.