When Spiritual Covering Turns Toxic: Legacy of Shepherding Abuse

Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at William-Branham.org and with me I have my very special guests, Martin and Sarah Johnson. Martin, Sarah, it's good to have you and to let you share your story to the world. We've been chatting a little bit through email and some of the things that you're talking about. I'm just I'm making to hear more. I know the listeners will be too. So maybe if you could just tell everybody a little bit about yourself and

then we'll get into the exciting stuff. Thank you for inviting us, John. Yeah. Very glad to be here. On the other side of the Atlantic, so we are Martin and Sarah. We live on the south coast of the UK, about two hours south of London and we were part of a church in London where there were lots of issues. We've heard lots of people tell their stories similarly and we left there about 15 years ago, so lots of stuff has gone on in the meantime. In the last year or so we've just come to that place where we felt we were in a place

where we could talk about what had gone on and so here we are. Yeah and I think also we've been watching different things on YouTube and the like and come across your channel and her people telling their stories and the things that they've gone through and also we feel in your friends who you talk about different issues concerning the message. Although we weren't part of the message cult, we recognise as we've been hearing these things that what we were involved, we was cultish at least and some other things rang very true. So it's now to listen to the programs and different people speak and the different

subjects you've talked about has been very helpful to us to understand more of what we've been through I suppose. Well that's good. There are so many people who are hurting they have been through really bad experiences and I really I'm a little surprised myself that this has grown to what it has because I never dreamed that there would be so many different groups of people sharing their stories but what I have found is within every single group even though the doctrine is different the leaders are different even a lot of the history is different. The

internal structure of the way that they're manipulating people is very much the same and the survivors of each group they have the experiences, what's really odd is that many of the groups even share the same loaded language.

So whenever I have a person telling their story, they're using loaded language that most people who've never been in a cult would never know. But the listeners hear it and they're like, wait a minute, that's exactly what my leader said.

So it's strange and odd, but it's exciting at the same time because it is really helping a lot of people. Yeah, I think for us, one of the interesting things here in you and Charles Paisley talk about Derek Prince and all those sorts of things because I certainly grew up with that being part of our, everything we listened to, everything we knew was what we should be listening to.

And to hear him talked about in those terms, which are a little bit more probably near to what was really going on, particularly regarding things to do with authoritative structures for churches, and I hadn't really realised until I looked back at some of the stuff we'd learned and we'd read about, was how much he had brought in that whole shepherding way.

And that really, that was in the 70s, and he and his first wife, Lydia, came to London twice in 1974 and 1975, obviously I was very young, but I remember him coming and I remember not long after he'd been, another, he sent another group of Americans from Ann Arbor, Michigan, in fact, to us and they were looking to take us under their covering so that we would have a commitment to them and my dad who had started, we'd started the church in our house along with another family and it was gradually growing and he was keen to, well,

these people were keen that we would come under their covering, but we didn't and we're grateful that we didn't. But it was interesting to look back at that and also to hear Charles's comments about him and how much he was involved with other people there who were, those, those fought Lorda Del V that they talked about and, and their connections, particularly Anne Baxter and others, to back to William Brannum and that was quite shocking in a natural fact.

We remember, didn't we, a video that we had when, when we were in the church, which was called the ABC of, of the charismatic movement, Alan Brannum and Co. And that was interesting because that, that was in those days in the 70s, it was very much people were talking about the things of the spirit, the move of the spirit, the charismatic renewal and there was such a sort of sense of everything being new and fresh that with that stuff coming in, all the, all the stuff about the, the, the control, the authoritative structure, you didn't really notice it, it was sort of woven in, it was stuck, it was woven into

what was happening, but what's interesting is that all of Looking back and hearing you guys talk about it is that even though it happens then, and even though then they seemed to say, well, we don't really believe that anymore, we'll just push that to one side.

It's a bit like Wackermoll. It's gone underground and it comes up here, and it comes up here, and it comes up here. And it really did at a later date, although my dad then died and he wasn't there.

It really did affect the direction that our church went in. And I think also I'd say what's been really helpful is you have been hearing the histories of things. I think one of your things is you want the history to be out there, and it's true sense, rather than the sort of sanitized histories of what you're in a lot of the biographies, or whatever, of some of these principal players, and hearing the truth of the history over time is really enlightening.

And as you say, that's spidersweb, it joins dots, and different things together. You never thought we're joined together, but they are in a funny way. They are. It's like a big puzzle that you're trying to put together.

I love the mystery shows and how you solve the mystery and get all of the clues all along the way. What I've found is that this is the biggest mystery that this can even exist in our world.

How is it possible that so many people have covered up so many histories? Because if they were to openly declare as they hold a revival, if they go into, like Derek Prince goes into the UK, if he's suddenly to talk about all of the history of all of the charlatans, the crazy people, the authoritarian control, all of the things that nobody talks about, and say, hey, I'm a part of all of this.

Would you like to join me? There's not a single person that's going to join it, but they cover up the histories, and then where it gets really, really problematic for me. There are many reputable scholars who have to be aware.

They have to have studied this enough to know when they write their books or their these biographies. Why do they eliminate the critical history? That's the part that just really confuses me. Yes. I mean, an interesting point that your co-host Charles Paisley made when you were talking about Derek Prince was that he got a lot of credence and a lot of acceptance in one sense because of his education, and his education was pushed to the front, almost everything.

Everything you read about him, it confirms he went to Eaton and Cambridge, and there's nothing wrong with going there, but equally, it doesn't give you five leaps ahead of everybody else in the body of Christ.

It doesn't give you a certain understanding, and although he clearly was a classic scholar and a philosopher and all those other things, it doesn't mean that you are automatically everything you say is right.

And I think the big thing for us was the people, as you say, the people they hang out with weren't very in some cases just weren't very nice people. And it really impacted our church because one of the men he hung out with was a chap called Harry Greenmot who died a long time ago, but was a predator and also an alcoholic.

And yet they traveled together and they ministered together and that man went into all sorts of places and I never said anything. And it's hard to think, it's all very well knowing the meaning of the Greek words and being able to talk about this that and the other.

But if you can't call out something that's wrong, that's not right. Yeah, I think it's it that the Harry Eard was an associate with Derek Prince for a time I think is what Sarah was saying.

And they traveled together. Okay, there was a little fellowship in Southwest England called South Chard Christian Fellowship. And this was quite an epicenter of things, a sort of charismatic renewal sort of thing. And a lot of people came to there, listened and came out again.

And that's where I think Derek Prince and this Harry Greenmot guy met and they tried to just place that sweet and whatever a minister to cover. But and it's hard to imagine because we've talked to various people who've had first hand experience of finding Harry Greenwood who's no longer with us in various compromising things.

And yet these things were never dealt with. They were sort of covered over and things were like to move on. I guess because people really want to give a bad name to the revival water, the movement or the church or whatever it was.

But it just can never be right. Can it to cover up what is obvious from the scriptures is not good. And that's what seems to have happened consistently. Yeah, I can't even imagine if somebody is in a position of power who has the mindset that they could pray on others that leadership who is aware of this would allow them to continue because you know it's going to happen again.

You mentioned earlier the phrase spiritual covering it's interesting because this is a phrase a few people in the podcast have used it. But I have had people ask me what this is. There are people who are in these movements who have the same exact thing but they go by different names.

What's interesting is what you're talking about in the leadership. Well, there is a spiritual covering that flows downhill to the rank and fall member, which is basically saying we are authority over you. That's what spiritual covering is.

But then there is a separate one for the leadership. They are spiritual covering among themselves and you have no way to push the push back uphill. Could you take a moment and explain spiritual covering what it is and what it meant in your church and also how it affected you.

Yes, I think it's a really important issue and I think it's something that's... that's not really spoken about. In terms of how it affects dust, perhaps I should go back and just tell a little of the story of how we started as the church. And so my dad decided, along with that, a few others that they would meet in our home. And it's just in the early 1970s. And so, in that sense, there were just a few families. And there was no structure. We weren't part of the Baptist church or the assemblies of God or anything like that. We were just meeting in our home.

But there were other people all around London doing what we were doing. And so the the men from the church or the leaders or whoever it was. There was no particular name for them.

Perhaps just an elder. They were called an elder for those days. They would meet together so that they could share what was going on. They could help each other out and so on and so on.

And then when the shepherding movement started to come in, people, like Derrick Prince or some of his people that he sent over came along and said that we should be really discipling people and that everybody needed a covering. And I remember one of the leaders of one of the little groups telling me years after my dad had died that they had a group, they had a meeting that a meeting was called in London. I'm not quite sure exactly who called it, but various house group leaders went along.

And it was proposed to them that everyone should be submitted to one or other of someone related to the Fort Lauderdale 5. And it was explained to them that if you were submitted to this person, they were submitted to this person and ultimately someone was submitted to someone in Fort Lauderdale.

And this chap was telling me, he said, I wonder if your dad was going to say anything. Because you know, this is not sounding good to us. We like this freedom. We've got freedom. We're not in a denomination. We can do what we want. We can meet when we like. We don't have to pay money to anybody. This is working really well. And there's this freedom. We can sing what we want and so on and so on. And you said at the end of the meeting, dad said, well, that's all very well. But I think

Don Basham. I think it was Don Basham who was the head of the show. I don't remember. But he said, what happens if Don Basham is wrong? What happens if he asks you to do something and everyone's submitted to everybody else? Who says it's a bit like having a Pope, isn't it? And that's really was the crux of it. And so we didn't. We didn't. And I don't think any of those house churches really did agree to go into their covering. There were several other people in the UK trying to set up those same sort of structures. But we never became part of it. But interestingly, as soon as

my dad had died, then an American pastor who had been friends with this other predator from the UK came over and he came over and started getting more involved with us. So in other words, it wasn't an overt right. I'm now your boss. I'm now the one you're answerable to.

accountable to me, et cetera, et cetera. He just started to come in and exercise a little bit of control here, a little bit of control there, and it's a very subtle thing, because isn't it lovely? I would say, yeah, he started to exert influence, I would say, rather than for himself, as say, the apostle or some, you know, whatever other name some people use as their thing, he sort of ingratiate himself with the fellowship and I was a charismatic guy, no doubt about it. I was quite talented musically in that, and he could hold a crowd, shall we say? And he said, I mean, he turned out to be a complete

a complete charlatan, but he was very clever, he was a sociopath, he was very clever at pulling people in. So it went from that sort of openness of people saying, right, I'm going to be your covering, to people then being a bit more subtle about it. And it almost as it is as if in these groups, it attracts people like that, it attracts these sociopaths, these people who have a strong need for control. And he claimed that he had been in Catherine Coulman's choir in Pittsburgh, he came from Pittsburgh, and that's where he received his anointing.

But yeah, the sad thing was that really the people in his church, in his home church in Indiana, Pennsylvania knew what was going on, but people seem to sort of be able to

to accept this a certain amount of things going on that aren't quite right. It doesn't really matter if the man's really anointed. Really, that's the case isn't it? Yeah, and I think also these sort of groups where people, you know, I wasn't around when it was meeting in the house because I met Sarah later, but it was obviously a time where people weren't self-seeking, they were seeking the Lord, and so no one had an agenda to try and make a ministry or whatever in general in the fellowship setting. But people, because there's no, you know, people knew what they

knew. Sarah's dad was obviously very knowledgeable. You were the New Testament Greek, and you know, you obviously knew his word, but these, these, these sorts of places I suppose are

inviting to those people looking to gain authority or whatever, because it's a malleable sort of thing, and they can exert influence in different ways and gain more and more control, but in a very subtle way. And he was very good befriending people, you know, but I have to say, I was one, you know, he could spot someone who was vulnerable, and he would happily spend time.

what we were called now, grooming someone to get them to the place and start pressing and pushing to see what reactions he got when some things were done. So it was a very skillful manipulator.

But it was interesting that even before, as soon as my dad died in the early 80s, even before this guy was sort of on the fringes and he wanted to come and, well, now we're looking back, particularly with what we know about trauma and all that other sort of stuff.

Looking back, we know that he was in it for the long game. These people who are in it for the long game, they're not, they're not going to rush, they're going to build their friendships, they're going to make themselves indispensable to you and they're going to control relationships.

I mean, it's really quite shocking when you look back and I think we look at all the other stories that we've heard. It's very similar with people like Mike Bickle, with people of that type, how they're in it for the long game, they build their relationships until they're really pulling all the strings in one sense. And they pull some people close, they keep some people at a distance so that if you talk to other people, they'll say, he doesn't do that to me.

I think, I think, I think you might be imagining that actually. Should you really be speaking about that? Should you really be talking about God's anointed? And you suddenly, we moved from being just a little, a little fellowship meeting in a home in the circle with the guitars out to suddenly, after my dad had died, we moved more meeting into a school hall, which was the way those sorts of churches went. And then one day I came in and instead of being in the circle in the school hall, all the chairs were arranged up to the front, facing the front, facing the one

man, and something had shifted really, but it was subtle because it happened slowly. Oh, it's going to be much better for everybody. If he's standing up here, if someone's standing up here, then we can, we can all see him at one go, or it'll be easier for running the, all the sound equipment if we have it like that, etc, etc. So it's like you talk about quite often the frog in the boiling water or in the cold water that gets heated up and that's exactly what happens.

It doesn't happen overnight because with these sorts of cults and cultish atmospheres, we look back and we think, how could we have been taken in by that? What happens? Help me out. We're sensible people. How could we find ourselves in this position? And yet we did.

You know, you just described about half of my childhood. I went to churches that were in mobile homes. One church was in this little building that was for the Boy Scouts of America, the Boy Scout. It was like a clubhouse. The Boy Scouts met in here on Saturday and then the church was held there on Sunday. They borrowed the building. And then they grew and obviously they become some of the massive churches. So I recognize all of that. But something you said, I want to go back to you. You're talking about...

the way the music is attracting people. We have this thing in the United States. I don't know if you have it in the UK. I've never been to the UK, but they have these buffets and America has widespread gluttony.

People go in and gorge themselves in a buffet. And as you walk out of a buffet, there's always this bowl of mints and you get a free mints as you walk out. And people think that's just so, you know, a treat for them, but it's actually not.

There is a manipulation technique behind this. If you gorge yourself and you go home and your belly starts to swell and you start to feel ill, you're going to remember that and you're gonna associate that ill feeling with the restaurant.

But if you take the little mint, the mint kind of soothes your stomach and it coats the inside. So then you feel good afterwards and you associate the good feeling with gorging yourself, which is kind of funny when you think about it.

Well, music has not the same effect on your stomach, but kind of the same effect on your mind. If you get all the people together and it's a very exciting, very uplifting, you know, people enjoying the music getting into it and the preacher preaches something that is just authoritarian and belittling, making you feel lower than dirt, well, you're going to remember that music because the music made you happy, you kind of forget the bad thing.

But if they didn't have the music and you walked in and some guys just shouting at you, you're gonna leave thinking, I'm not gonna go back to this place. There's no way I'm going back to this place.

So there are, in fact, I released today's podcast on just charismatic music and the effects that it has on the people. We didn't cover everything because there's so many different aspects to think through with just the music part.

But it can be used as a manipulation technique. It can be used for praise and worship. What people don't get is it actually can be used for both and that's where it gets a little scary.

Yeah, I mean, I worked in the States in the music business, the Christian music business in fact, for six months working for someone connected to South Chad. And yeah, it is a, well, it's another whole program probably.

What goes on there, that is another whole world, really quite shocking in actual fact, what goes on. But yeah, but in the early days, when we first met in our home, it was such a, those were really precious times and it was talked about often as body ministry.

I don't know if you've heard that term, but body ministry, the things of the spirit people would talk about. And we would just get together, someone would play the guitar, someone would share, pray, read the Bible, et cetera.

It was really very special. But once it got into the meeting into a hall, then when we were meeting up front, as you say then, they did say one of the things was they'd have the better microphones.

We had microphones. We didn't use those before, really. And so on. So yeah, it became more of a, it was a bit of a change to them from what I understand is from, something where everyone could contribute. So everyone was involved to becoming more a few people, whoever was in the worship team and the person who led the meeting at the time.

And it's a very different thing. But then, of course, once you've got someone up the front, then there's the opportunity to build leadership structures and things. And that was it. And I remember the first time there was a meeting when this American guy come along.

And it was such an excitement in the fellowship of that time. I hadn't seen this guy before, I hadn't met him, hadn't heard him speak. But everyone was like, oh, it's my godly man, it's my amazing charismatic man's coming. And there was a real excitement. I remember sitting in the meeting and it was all sense of awe when he was in the room. It was quiet. I'm like nothing else I'd had. And at that time, he was sort of giving sorts of, I guess you would call them words of knowledge. I don't know whether that makes sense to you. But, and he would point to someone

and ask them a question and say something. And, you know, it was just like, wow, what's going on here? And then he pointed at me in a, oh, gosh, stand up. And I thought, well, this man obviously can see through things. So there's no point. And he said, and he said, who do you say you are, whatever? And I just, at the time, I was not doing well when I just said, I'm weak. And he sort of looked at me.

And sat me down and stood me up later and sort of, I'd say he would say minister to me, but gave me a pep talk in a sense. And, but it was, it was really playing, you could, it was really playing with people in a sense, in a subtle way, looking back on it. It was really manipulation that was going on. It's not that I do believe people can have words of knowledge for people. I do think that's true. But I don't believe it's a public sort of a great show. If you know what I mean,

an entertainment that's not like what God is, God is caring and, and kind to us, I find most of the time. And it was that sort of early, early data mining. You know, the data mining that they talk about now are various people on Facebook and so on and so on. And they use that information then from the platform. He clearly did find out things from various people and then used it.

But it did give you an illusion that this man, yes, this Martin said could see into your soul. You know, and then of course that gives them the power of you because then you're afraid, well, well, what else can they see? What else do they know about me? And it's quite a subtle thing. And then this person becomes built up. His name was Stanley Hickman. And he would teach people Greek, but he'd never learned Greek. So he was just one chapter ahead of everybody. But no one knew that. Everyone thought that somehow God had come down and taught him himself. It's that

sort of building somewhere up to something bigger than they are. And then they become invincible really it doesn't matter what you say after that because even if you see something awful and he lived a homosexual lifestyle really throughout the time we knew him he's now deceased and he used that to get what he wanted from people in the guise of prayer and so on and so on but because he had this sort of image he could in one sense get away with things and he was careful because he did things one on one he never did things in the group so no one

saw or experienced what say I experienced because they weren't there you were only there one on one with him and of course because of this aura he had because people saw him as sort of this holy man this most the best Christian we've ever met sort of thing people wanted to spend time with him and so he was so severe great privilege you know and I was the same you know I wanted to spend time with and it was amazing to me that he would consider spending time with me because I wouldn't spend time with me at that point in my life but and he did but he recognised that

I was honourable and so he was spent he spent a good eight or nine miles just being kind to me when the occasions when I saw him you know obviously he was in America it would come over twice a year we might be in a and we had a conference in Europe once a year so I might say in three four times a year but he was kind and he just ingratiated himself from me so when he started sort of hugging you a bit tighter or or kissed you on the cheek or something it just it didn't really register to start

with but then it started then you started to have this battle in yourself of oh what's that is it that no it can't be because this man's a holy man this man's a dada dada and you have this whole conflict going on in you because everyone's built him up as this amazing man of god and this Christian with a perfect walk and on the side he was so he was so what's that what's that that felt yeah yeah but the other thing over all the bit like you're saying with the music and things like that it left it there was patterns established in your thinking that over all common sense

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You know, people ask me, I get emails about this, why I don't take sides on the cessation as continuous debate, and it's because I have so many mixed emotions. I think I mentioned in one of the podcasts, I'm a skepticist or something like this.

I made up a term, right? I'm skeptical of all of the hoaxes that are out there and all of the fraud that is happening. I have known people that new things that they probably could never have known, just things that, you know, they were able to, I don't know how they did.

I don't know what the gift was if they even had one, but they knew it. But the people who can do this that I have encountered, the ones who truly have the gift, not the charlatans, it's a burden to them.

They really don't want to have this thing because you don't want to, like you people, you're nice people, I would not want to know things about your life that you would not want others to know.

This would terrify me. Why would I want this, right? And so people who have this kind of gift, they usually don't want to tell other people that they have it. If it is used in a public manner, it's usually public in that they will take somebody who has some issue and call them to the side, not make a big show of it.

They don't want people to worship them, but more to the point because humans are afraid of things that they don't understand. So the humans in the audience who sees the person on the platform who's boasting I can do this magic thing, they start to fear this.

And like you said, this is exactly the case with everybody I know. When somebody does this and convinces the audience they can do it, if they ever get along with them, the person who they're along with doesn't want them staring into their secret private parts of their head, because every person, every human is broken.

So it creates this fear. And what I don't understand is why people in these leadership positions, especially ministers, they're supposed to be a shepherd of the flock, you're supposed to help one another. Why would a minister want his congregation to fear him unless he is some sort of a narcissist or has some weird personality disorder?

And at the same time, I can't brand the entire movement of leadership with narcissistic personality disorder. So I think there must be something else. This is either show, showmanship, fakery, this is something entirely different.

Definitely, it is the case that it seems to us and I've grown up in this environment. There are the people who want to take control, like this chap who get off somehow on having the control.

And they're all, I know. there are the people of which there are more of them who cover it up, who enable it because they see it and they let it go. So it's not just the people who are taking control, it's the ones who stand by and what should happen and say nothing and then become really involved in it because they've seen it and they should have said something. I mean, one of the early leaders of the church, after my dad had died, was a man who, yeah, who was, I suppose you'd say a narcissist or someone with narcissistic traits, who said he'd seen a vision of himself

holding it. He told you of it. He told me, because I asked him how he became, because he was a pastor. He presented himself as a pastor at that time and I said, how did that come about then? Had he become a pastor because I had no idea and he said, oh, I had a vision of me sitting on a throne with a sect or because I was such a young believer at the time, it struck me as odd and I assumed that, oh, well, I have a people must have had that vision if they agreed with you, but he was the only one who of course had that vision or if, well,

he would like you to think he had that vision, but I suspect he didn't and it's just such a ridiculous thing now when you look back, you know, for the wisdom that we have now 20 years ago, that's the way it is. But then he went on to, you know, it's people push as hard as they can put, people push you as far as they can go. It's amazing how far leaders like that. You talked about some of the things, the crazy things that William Branham said and did, but it's amazing how far people can go and say things and nobody

challenges it and that is very endemic in this day and age when there's not that balance leadership and he then went on, but one time he was really shouting at me about something and I'm just a member of the church doing my full-time job and then helping out in the church as well because these churches run of course with mostly golden tears and he was shouting at me about something and I just something came up on me and I said, why are you shouting at me? I did everything you asked me to do and now you're telling me you want me to do

something else and he said, right, we need to have a meeting and I thought, oh no, you know, I shouldn't have spoken up, but actually something inside me just had to speak up and we had a meeting with the other leader and he, this particular narcissistic leader, looked to me and said, well, I just want you to know I'm like Jeremiah the prophet to you and you've talked about people who say they're a large of the prophet. This guy said he was Jeremiah. He said, I can tear you down if I want to and I can build you up if I want

to and standing there right beside him is another leader who knew very well that what was going on was a load of nonsense, but he said nothing. And that goes on a lot, and people get away, well, they don't get away with it because they'll all stand before the Lord one day and give an account. But people don't want to say anything. And eventually this American chap, Stanley Hickman, coming from Indiana, Pennsylvania, from a church there, which was then called House of Yahweh, he came over and he said, right, we're going to sort this out. This isn't right, this man shouting

at people. And he told him he had to leave. And that's what's happening was one narcissist was being replaced with a much bigger narcissist. And that's what we also didn't see looking back. It seems so ridiculous that we couldn't, we couldn't understand that.

I mean, he did it also in a such a dramatic way because he knew him that way. He called me and the American guy, he'd left, he'd done a conference series and then left and go back to America. Then he called me and says, I'm coming back, but I don't want anyone to know.

And I'm like, well, okay, so I picked him up the airport and put him in a hotel near where the meeting was. And so we were having our normal, I think it was a wedding's meeting, I think.

And he was at the back of me and then he just walked into the meeting totally unannounced, you know, this, this, this, it's America, Richard, from somewhere else. This can imagine the drama. And he's creating a dramatic atmosphere, you know, so that people are off their guard already and then they're open to whatever. And of course, he confronted the guy in a very direct way, making it seem like he was the goodie when it was really, it was like the beast kicking out the anti-grist or whatever, you know, it's just one bad thing for another. But it was, you know, he knew

how to manage things and be dramatic and that it was, oh. But I think the thing that's really struck us, particularly we've gone on to train our heathers and the therapeutic foster parent. And I think we understand more now the impact that these have on. And we can look back and and laugh a little, you know, we look back and we think, oh, and it was a dramatic day that day.

And oh, the things that happened and the and the shouting and the towing and throwing. But in actual fact, at the heart of all this, there are people who suffer terribly, you know, there are people who's who's lives have been really impacted by what's gone on. And and I think that's something we feel very strongly about. And for example, this chat coming from this church in in Indiana, the elders there, all the elders who had good jobs, it was small, it's small-term USA in one sense. Is Indiana Pennsylvania? Indiana Pennsylvania. So they had, they all had jobs

which were, you know, school teachers. And, you know, I don't know, it's small, in the small town in USA, it seems there's quite a lot of, you know, hierarchy in one sense. And they had good jobs. And I don't think they wanted, it was too much, really, to recognise what was going on.

But they would be at our conferences, we had conferences for all the churches, the churches around the world, about four or five, five churches in total. conferences in Europe and in the Easter times and this man would be there praying for young men or praying on them P-R-E-Y-I-M-G in his prayer time and there would be young men queued up outside you know waiting to see him and yet there's me you know oh fantastic we've got you know here's the man of God and and we're going to you know it's lovely they're all queuing up to be prayed for and I didn't know I couldn't have known what was going on but now I

look back and I'm horrified that there were men there plenty of men well able to have stopped that from happening well able to have said and just to take it back a couple of steps then if you look back to what happened with someone like Derek Prince I'm not in any way putting him in that mold but nevertheless he set up an authoritarian structure that paved the way for other men to bring this man in it absolutely is directly connected we haven't touched on on any of the the deliverance and all that sort of thing that maybe that's another subject but this this whole

way of this shepherding thing has a lot to answer for because it was never really publicly discredited it just sort of went down quietly or we're just going to quietly move away from that but in that's fact that way of thinking that way of giving men a lot of credence a lot of authority a lot of power which couldn't be questioned then set up the way for these men and in in our case this particular man then to come in and really take control and really throughout the entire time he ministered in the UK which is over 40 years he was obviously he was obviously just a charlatan and it's never

just that one thing you know that once they've got control there's it's not just about what goes on in the prairie room which was clearly abusive it's all the other things that they're doing all the other type of control that they're having over everything over peeing. I mean as a good point to mention what he did to us when we met in the fellowship and we married and we'd asked him to marry us but hey oh but he he saw us a few times before we were getting married and he was I could sort of counselling us if you call it that briefly but go on sweetie if you want to speak

about that is it appropriate to say yes maybe I can I could tell the story of because this is a story that really highlights how much impact someone like that and ways like that can have on people's lives so we so we decided to get married ourselves without any outside intervention and as you know in these places the whole shepherding way although even if you're not calling it shepherding there's a lot of sort of coercive behaviour putting people together And, you know, or keeping people apart or stopping people from doing what they want to do,

but perhaps not actually calling it shepherding. And in our case, so we made our own decision that we wanted him married. And so we didn't really have any proper counselling, did they? No, we had from the UK pastor, but he wasn't counselling him, he was just rambling.

It was rambling, it was just rambling. It was nothing to do with anything that matters when people get married, they need to talk about all sorts of important things. But this was talking to us about Abraham and all sorts of stuff, and not that that's not important, but in the context.

There's other things too, practical things that you might be better served. So in our case, we had, we had, yeah, we had only one session really, actually. So he flew in specially to Marius, which was a massive, you know, that was a massive thing.

And I, the other thing that these people do, is that he flew into Marius, but really, I had very little by then to do with my own family, because he constantly, frequently, would refer to my family when he talked to me about them as being demonized.

And that's a horrible thing to do, because it pushes you apart from people, particularly if this person is to be believed, they're to be honored, and they say this about your family, oh, well, really, that makes that really hard, that relationship.

And my mum wasn't really, wasn't really even there on the day that we got, what she was there when we got married, but she wasn't with me, et cetera. However, coming back to that night before, and at two nights before we got married, we were both working full time.

And I think it's worth saying we were already legally married, because we had the league of ceremony, already a weekend before. So we were having our light church celebration a week later. And so two days before we would have a wedding rehearsal dinner, very American invention, we don't normally do in this country, but we were having that, because it was all sort of a bit Americanized.

And two nights before that, we were to see this guy for our formal counseling before we got married. And we came into the room and I was a bit nervous, because you know, this is the big guy.

And he said to me, so you're getting married. So can you tell me why you're getting married? I'm like, whoa, crumbs, there's always gonna be a wrong answer. When people ask you those questions, it doesn't matter what you say, it's gonna be the wrong answer.

And then they're gonna say, well, that's not the right answer, is it? This is the answer. So I thought I'm gonna be polite, say if I'm just gonna say, because Martin asked me. And I thought, got you there.

I've given you one, I've given you the right answer. You can't get me on that one. And he said exactly. He said exactly. And it's not too late to call it off. I'm like, what?

Wow. You know, we were slightly older when we got married, we were in our 30s and late 30s.

I suddenly felt, I suddenly felt sort of completely alone at that point. I was like, isn't... No one here but me Martin in this chap. What am I gonna say? I said, no, you don't understand.

We legally got married a week ago in the registry office, which we have to do here if you're gonna get married in a certain place. And he said, don't worry, I can take care of that for you.

I can have that nullified. And it was just the most shocking thing because it goes to this whole control that comes with this sort of setup that comes really from this whole authoritarian way of doing things.

And I didn't know what to do. I didn't know who to talk to or what to say. And so we sort of mumbled through the meeting. I said, I don't, I don't, I, I remember saying, it's too late to call it off.

It's too late to do that. We've got the wedding's booked. We've got people coming in from all over the world. It's all set up. We've spent six months planning this. It's happening in two days.

The wedding rehearsal dinner's being prepared downstairs. We can't call this off. Why would we call it off? I didn't ask him that question, but I think I know the answer was he wanted Martin more than he, you know, he had designs for everybody.

And he wanted control and he didn't have control. And I think he thought that he would lose control too if we were married. But the strange thing is we're in this room in this house, which is one of the leaders, the house of one of the leaders, where he was staying.

And he says these things. And it's really shocking in that moment because it questions everything you think. You're about to commit your life and you're everything to this person. And he's saying, well, should you really be doing that?

Hmm, don't know. And that's a horrible thing to do. Where I was thinking it was going to be a talk about all sorts of things I could imagine. But, and then he just sort of, I think he thought, well, I've tried.

Shrugged his shoulders and said, okay, and then off we went. I think he left us in turmoil. We were in turmoil for about 24 hours and we couldn't contact. We didn't really have mobile phones so easily accessible then.

We didn't really talk to one other, but when we finally talked to one another, we got settled that that's what we wanted to do. We got over it, but he was a mind game.

It was, it sent us into it. turmoil, what's going on? Then, you know, my mind to Sarah really want to marry me. I didn't know what Sarah was thinking. You know, it was all these things going on.

But simply because he stuck, you know, he's playing his game, he's powerfully and it's just wicked stuff. And his wife, and the sad thing is with all these situations that the wives know, the wives are part of well, not all of them, of course, but in many cases, the wives of both the protagonists, as it were, the main game players and the wives of the enablers and the cover-uppers are in on it.

They know what's going on. And then she said to me the next... morning. I tried to talk to her and she didn't wait until she married 24 hours then. I tried to talk to her, well I didn't really think I loved him when we got married either. I questioned it anyway and she less left it at that. But the interesting thing was that just not long before then I'd sat down at my piano and I had written my vows and I said to him, I'd said to him when we had the rehearsal, I've written my vows and someone's going to play them for me, I'm going to sing them

and he controlled everything, he controlled every detail of the service and amazingly he said to me, well I don't mind about that, you just go ahead and do it and that for me was, that was a good thing because he didn't have control of it but it did send us into term or we got married, he married us and then we went off to the States for our honeymoon, part of which was attending the summer conference which is the funny thing that you do, you know, you do those crazy things and you look back and think

what was going on, what were we thinking, but really it's that beyond from a analogy again. I'm sitting here, almost at a loss for words, I can't do somebody would do this to you, my grandfather married my wife and I and my wife, my wife looks down at this but I'll tell it anyway, my grandfather made this comment that marriage is a wonderful institution for those that need an institution and I understood my grandfather was joking, I don't think my wife fully did.

So there was some humor there and he was my grandfather but I can't imagine if my grandfather had said something like this but when you said it, the way you described the setup, the first thought that come to my head is oh my gosh, he is cold reading you, he's watching the way you respond, he's listening to words and he's trying to pretend that he has this supernatural thing going and he can see in your head and yet he's responding to your answer which was trying to trying to avert distract from his question. So the whole thing just, it's odd to me and the other

thing that comes to mind is this authoritarian control that Derek Prince and others set up, it was a downhill only authoritarian control. They said that it was shepherds governing the shepherds governing the people but if you actually understand what was happening, it was just the rank and file member that got the authoritarian control. Those in the leadership were never, ever really under control of any kind and nobody was checking to see are these guys predators or are these good spiritual men? Yes, exactly and I mean that's the thing with Derek Prince, there's no indication that he was a predator at all and I wouldn't want to indicate that but

he ran with predators or certainly ran with one and I think and that's never really talked about. That means many, many other people knew what was going on too and you know, apart from the fact that Eldon Purvis who was producing or whatever it is, the new wine magazine was himself a homosexual and they knew it.

and I've got lots of direct print stuff that was produced in the early 2000s before he died that's reproductions from those articles which are slightly changed around a little bit but it's still the same flavour coming through and I think it's a sad thing with people like that they could have stood up and taken a stand unpopular though it might have been for the truth and to protect people and you know that that man Stan Hickman from that church when Harry Green would brought him into the country first it was only pretext of ministering at

children's camps and I was a leader at the children's camps and it wasn't until everything started to the truth started to come out that I remembered the times when people would tell me that how kind Stan he was because he would take the little boys to his bedroom to minister to them because they were homesick and I thought wow how kind and now as a as a trauma informed therapeutic foster parent I can only see one thing and I think for for us you know one of the most disappointed things was when eventually things became so much that Stan he was exposed and the American

fellowship had to take action and removed him as pastor and effect paid him off to go and move away when how this was dealt with in our fellowship was just really difficult and ended up with us leaving because they were asked to in effect we victims were made the troublemakers and put off because we they sort of made an announcement in the fellowship but it was we were digging around we're finding out all kinds of things and it was nowhere near a big enough statement to say what had gone on and so we're great fear and trembling we asked for a meeting with our leaders

there's two of them and we just said we we really concerned that people one didn't really know the true truth of what's really been going on for so many years and we think people need an opportunity to ask some questions if they got them you know and and thirdly we think we probably need someone to come and help us with this because we've been under the swear this man for 40 years so that was our three little points a clear announcement opportunity to ask questions and get some help and and that was seen as almost in century when we presented that so the first time we

asked them that in the meeting they said we need to think about that and we'll come back to you well they didn't come back to us eventually we probably then we had another meeting and they said well would you like to change your mind about what you said was the first yes they said no when you tell us again so we went through the whole thing again and it was it was really the change in their attitude, you know, one of the leaders was the one who shed the gospel with me and I got saved for her and I would count as my best friend. The other guy I would have

counted as a friend too but suddenly it was like there was a chasm between us and all that section of God, it was a cold of the year. Yeah and they were terrified of it getting out as it were of a looting face. I think that's the sad thing when people are more interested in just protecting their position and protecting their reputation than they are in the truth. And you know, we we spoke to them very, very from our hearts but they did say, you know, is that that old, you know, people talk about Davo, you know, this deflect attack and so on. In other words,

for those who don't know what that means, when someone says something's happening, for example, if I said it would be like, it would be like there was a meeting going on, a church meeting in the church building that's day and someone's speaking about Psalm 23 for example and someone runs in and says in that back room where the children are meeting, someone's attacking the children and someone from the front would say, could you could you be quiet please, could you just sit down, will deal with that when we deal with it? And it's exactly that thing of we were told, we don't

want lots of emotion, could you just be calm about this? Could you just sit down and be quiet? And it was really devastating for me because I'd grown up in, I mean like you, I think you'd grown up in the church. It was my, it was my whole life. It was, I'd grown up in it. These people sat around my table with my parents, they'd sat in our rooms and we'd, and we'd seen them when they were at their worst, when they needed help, they'd turned up at the door. We'd been to their weddings because they got married, we'd held their babies, you know, and looked after them and been there

for them and they'd been there for us and all of a sudden it's, we just don't want to talk about this, we're not even going to talk about it. And these things are quite serious, particularly when you look at the vulnerable people who'd been impacted by it all over the world. So there was the church in, in Indiana, Pennsylvania, there was the church in, there's one in Calgary called Living Word, there's one in India called Disciples Fellowship, there's one in Germany, run by some and American and, and there was our church which had been rebranded and all, and our church had

been sort of rebranded along the way. It started as a little Christian fellowship, but it had been rebranded, the church in America, when all this came out, they just took the sign at the front of the building and they took it out and they put a new sign in. It's like, we're just going to, we're just going to make that just all nice and clean, just going to call it Word of Brace Fellowship now. So that must be Word of Brace, yep, grace, we've got the word grace in there, yeah, that's good, No, we'll just start again and and you can't do that really. You really can't do that. This this is

I guess our concern is that there are people out there especially young young men at a time who Experience varying degrees of unwanted attention from this man Who've probably been traumatized and hurt by it and maybe not found their voice to be able to talk to anyone about it And I think there is a great need For that I suspect there are we we know of some people who are unfortunately no longer in this earth because it was too much What didn't happen to them And it's a terrible thought And we you know, I I hope maybe that someone might hear some of this and might find the courage to think oh

I can speak to someone. I can say this out loud. I can Talk to someone and share it because I'd hate to think these things are locked up in people. I know for myself, you know been out of talk and Things has been such a help and to be able to say these things and people believe you It's such a big thing and I really hope that there are people out there That may be in some small way you can help us Yes, yeah, we had um, I think it would have been a one-of-your-podcast. It was about a year ago someone told their story

Oh, maybe it was on another one, but someone told the story and it wasn't so dissimilar to ours And I remember thinking oh my gosh This happened 15 years ago for us now This is the first time we really felt that we could talk about it And I think I was afraid. I was afraid what might happen to me if I talked about it and still even When we left the church someone had left before us and one of the Ladies said to me oh, I'm really I'm really afraid for that person and names them to me because he's left the church

And he said things about what went on with that man. I think he's I think he could die I think it needs to look out if he's it's almost like God could strike you down dead If you speak against God's anointed it's that old God's anointed thing and eventually obviously we made decision to leave because we thought you know We're talking no one's listening. We're getting pushback. We're getting An epimatized by it and so We left and it was like a cow off Yeah, we went and told certain people why we were leaving because we wanted them to hear it from our own mouth so people knew

What I've gone on but no there's only one couple who who found out halfway through the process what was going on And said we want to know his friends What's going on? He said you really don't know. He said there's we do and we shared it with them And God bless them. They stood with us and walked side by side with us and left eventually when we did And you find out who your true friends are don't you in Mucky moments like that and I praise God that we have two excellent friends. Charles and Sue have been wonderful with us

but the rest it all dropped off and the first thing that the leaders did when we left was have a church meeting to talk about the fact that we'd left. And also of course we were doing some of that.

About 75% of what happened in the first ship was for Sunday school youth group worship team various things, hoping and chatting the building all kinds of things was we were doing. And we had all the church equipment and everything you know it was it was wild you know but we couldn't do it you know it's just got to leave sometimes you've got to say this isn't got this you're not going to happen we've got to go.

We did we we forwarded we sent you on a copy of the four page letters they delivered to us while we were having a before we'd left and while we were having a it was a it was a worship practice worship team practice at our house so everyone's in our house it's quite full with people there's a ring on the doorbell and the door is the pastor I called him that and the elusive possible sense because he wasn't and he and he'd been put in place by the predator anyway and he stood at the door and he just handed us a letter and said nothing and

and we just didn't we and he just walked away and so we opened the letter and in the letter it said you know we don't like what you've been saying to us we don't think you should be saying it and he said oh yes it's a serious error to put do you say it says it we believe it is a serious error to put care for the hurt care for her it's above care for the truth

but and also that it was laughable that we should be asking for independent you know someone independent to come in it was laughable and offensive to them and so in actual fact the funny thing was that I glanced at the letter and it was 2010 so it's 15 years ago and then I glanced at the front of it you read it I think and I couldn't I said what does it say what does it say I can't read it and and you told me and it wasn't until about a year ago that I actually read the letter it just was I read it properly because it's so hurtful when people do those

things do the people that you know you people that you've loved wait and you thought loved you so it's really sad and but but being able to speak about it and be able to speak and say this happened to me but God has been faithful that's very freeing in itself yeah absolutely and I'm so glad you're free I know that hearing this story from other people who are going through similar things it will give them some courage to step out and be free so thank you so much for sharing this with us there's so so much more we could say it's really great and we're grateful for the

opportunity you know to sit and do it we just felt we've listened to a lot of your shows and we thought we could imagine speaking with you and having a a free conversation that's been very much it so thank you very much awesome can I say one more little little thing I just While I was putting down some notes as to what we might say, I was reminded of, you know, we've worked as therapeutic foster parents and trained a lot with how to help children who've experienced significant trauma and so on.

And one of the things I was reminded of was two things. One of the ladies you spoke to, I believe, was a therapist, is a therapist. She talked about post-traumatic growth. And we certainly experienced that sort of PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder.

I wouldn't say we were diagnosed with anything particular, but it does take a toll on the way you think and the way you trust or can't trust people because of what's happened. And we had a young child with us, a young person with us for a while, and we saw a clinician with her, particularly because of what she'd experienced.

It was terrible neglect and abuse and so on and so on. And she really couldn't talk about it. And I said to the clinician, I don't think this is a good idea. We shouldn't be having these sessions, you know, I mean, what are you going to talk about?

I was a bit nervous. And she said, and also as a Christian, I was a bit nervous, where we were going. And she just said to me, there shouldn't be anywhere in this young person's mind that they can't go.

It shouldn't be somewhere that's so dark that we can't shine light in it. And that was really helpful. So we sat round a table and this child was shut down. She learned to trust us and it was really a beautiful thing, wasn't it?

And it taught us so much. We felt that God took us through that with her to teach ourselves. And the clinician, we sat on bean bags round a table and in the middle, she draws a picture of a heart and she colors it in red and she says, this is your heart.

She says to this young person. And because of the things that are done to each time something was done to you, you put her a barrier around your heart. So she's drawing square around the heart so that when people try and come near you, and they want to love you and help you, they can't get in because there's the barrier there.

And that was really interesting. And then we're talking, the little girl's just sitting there. And we get to the end of the session and she said nothing. And she said, is there anything you'd like to say before we finish?

And this was before we started doing play therapy and so on with her. And she took a big black marker from the table and she went to the heart and she just went that she did a sort of like a thunder box, a zigzag line through the heart and she looked at us and she said, heart broken.

And in that moment, it was just so moving to me that she could express something like that out of nothing, you know, it felt like she was just, this is a child with punching holes in the walls, punching through the plasterboard in the walls, such as the pain of was going on inside and she did come to know the Lord as well and that was a wonderful thing and I think we are reaching out to those who have been heartbroken by what's been done to them and often people don't really talk about it or they brush it off but we are just like to speak

about the faithfulness of God and the love of God in rescuing us and thank you thank you for the opportunity. Well I'm glad you shared it like I said it will help help many many people thank you so much for doing this. Thank you. Well if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information and we'll share your story you can check us out on the web you can find us at www.William-Brandom.org. For more about the dark side of the new Apostolic Reformation you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR. Available on Amazon, Kindle,

and Audible.