Daystar, Gordon Lindsay, and the “Elijah” Myth That Rewired Pentecostal History

Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at William-Branham.org and with me I have my co-host and friend, Laura Lynn Tyler Thompson, the host of Laura Lynn Live. Laura Lynn is good to be back and to talk about all things Daystar and New Apostolic Reformation related. The history as you have come to understand is so intricate and so sinister that I have to give it to you in small chunks and I was thinking after we talked last time there were probably

15 major points that would take an entire podcast to go through to summarize enough so that you could get the basics of just how bad this is. So I think what I'm going to do today I'm going to take one of the biggest main points that is really exceptional, exceptionally bad I should say and try to break that down a bit and digest it but I'm going to have to edge into something that's out of my comfort zone. I usually stick with the history and I avoid theology. However, say I'm not a theologian or a minister, however there are

times when the theology is part of the history. So I need to give you some of the theological background to everything that we talked about for the past several podcasts but it all goes back to what we talked about last time this the man who did not die Elijah and as you as I just shared with you recently we have major figures in the New Apostolic Reformation that this directly impacted including Daystar. So we'll talk about that a bit and then just break it down for you. I can't wait and I have been trying to take it all in bits

because John ever since I met you you know peels it feels like the the onion peels are just every every time we talk another layer is coming off and this whole Daystar connection. I mean I believe nothing's by accident the Lord directs our steps so the Lord directed me a I was on 700 Club for eight years in Canada as their daily host so to see the connection in with 700 Club then I thought it was the Lord's doing to open this door to be on Daystar with our own show.

The doors opened, miracles happened, everything just came together, and I thought, okay, there's the miracle. Then that kind of blows up, and I find myself in our Lucia's church, and then I find out that he has these allegations against him.

I talk to the women, and my world, and all of that blows up. Meanwhile, all of it's NAR, and I didn't know, and so you are helping me to understand what a lot of the viewing audience has been through with the different connections, with who we chose to watch, with who we chose to allow to speak into our lives through this tremendous gift of television.

We were able to hear the gospel at many different times, but who we heard it from, and what the background was has become extremely important. So I'm looking forward to you just explaining to the audience what you've been teaching me about, and I'm blown away.

I'm blown away, and I'm just asking God for discernment because He brought us here to help us and to reveal the knowledge for everyone, for everybody. So this is quite a phenomenon. You went from several frying pans into several fires, but they were all fanning from the same flames.

It's a little bit interesting, but it is interesting. And it goes back to, really it goes back to this, and again, I can't stress enough the significance of this Elijah thing. So let me embarrass myself a little bit.

Whenever I was born and raised into this Brandham cult, I was indoctrinated for 37 years to believe that we had the gospel, and we had the true gospel. Every other church had the false gospel.

And so there was this elitist mentality, which you and I have talked about a few times. You start to feel like, well, the other churches don't have the gospel. They're just preaching the water down gospel.

We had the real one. And so you started to see yourself as better than the other Christians. And that was by design. The other thing that we were focused on, and this is, again, this is embarrassing because I did read my Bible when I was in it.

It was like I was reading it with these glasses on that I couldn't see what it was saying. Until after I left, I read it over and over. We've talked about this to just wipe it out of my head.

But the gospel to us, when you asked us when we were in the movement, what is the gospel? We would say the gospel is that Jesus came died for our sins and we can be saved.

And we never really expanded upon it much more than that. But if we talk to each other amongst ourselves because it was this mystery religion, the gospel also had another element to it. The gospel included the Elijah that was to come for the last days.

looking for Jesus to save us, but we weren't really looking for Jesus's return so much as we was the return of Elijah, which is really interesting if you think about it because that is a different gospel.

And you can't, in the movement, we couldn't have one without the other. In other words, if the other Christians were believing in Jesus Christ for their salvation, it wasn't good enough because they also weren't looking for this Elijah figure.

And to break this down a little bit, let's break down the way the movement used, I've mentioned the term British Israelism to you. Let's break down a bit what that term means as far as theology.

So those who are familiar with the gospel, and I'll just simply skim the surface of some of the bigger points, but the gospel is, yes, that Jesus came and died for our sins, and we can be saved if we believe on him.

Ephesians mentions this very clearly, but there were also covenants involved with Jesus's returning. In, it's the book of, I think it's Exodus, it starts talking about when Moses came, he's reading the book of the covenant and Exodus, I think it's maybe 24.

It's whenever the covenant was sealed, that was the old covenant, that was the mosaic law. People entered into this covenant with God, and the covenant had blessings if they kept the commandments and curses if they did not.

So we were reading the book of Malachi, and believing that Malachi 4 was talking about this return of Elijah, this Elijah figure in the last days. And whenever you read Malachi 4, the very last part of that verse, it says, he shall turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to the fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

So those who understand the gospel and understand the covenants realize that there was the curse of the law, they needed somebody to come and break the curse, and the gospel is that Jesus came and broke that curse.

But in the British Israel model of theology, you blurred the lines between the covenants, in other words, we still believe we were in the old covenant as well as the new covenant. And William Brannum would say things like, Jesus did not come to destroy the law, he come to magnify it, and what does that mean church?

Magnify means become greater, more powerful. So who would say that God actually, Jesus actually amplified the law? And he would do this to emphasize his racism. He would say, when a white person marries a black person, and they produce a interracial child, that interracial child can't come into the tabernacle.

or I think he said 10 or 15 generations. He said, that was back under the old covenant. How much greater is that now? In other words, they may never be saved. So we actually believe that interracial children would never be saved.

And if you're in an interracial marriage, you are condemning yourself. That was part of the doctrine. Not to go too far into racism. The point I'm trying to make is that they blurred the lines between the old covenant and the new covenant.

And the reason that this becomes significant, if you think back to the manifested sons of God, the Joel's army themes, this was all documented in this book by George Warnock called The Feast of the Tabernacles.

And if anybody has read this book, it is essentially a book that is taking the modern church and it's putting it back under the old covenant patterns. The mosaic festivals, the priestly concepts, the temple theology.

So when you have this platform of all of this hero worship and you're teaching a hierarchical form of the fivefold ministry where the apostles at the top then the prophets all the way down to the rank and fall members, you have essentially re-established the Moses model.

And that was what the later reign movement went forward with. In fact, when Chuck Smith, who was influenced by later reign and deep into the heart of the Jesus movement, whenever there were sexual crimes that were committed, he would say they are not to be judged by man because we believe and follow the Moses model.

In other words, what he was saying is, we're above this, we have a separate code of conduct for the leadership, rank and fall members have no way to hold us accountable. It is only God that holds us accountable.

They've gone back to this Moses model and interestingly, if you think through the book of kings where a king or a priest would rise and then fall to sin or idolatry, the movement kept that Moses model to that pattern.

So in effect, they proved that the law needed to be replaced but they did it again in modern times. Well, this is just so interesting. One of the things in my church growing up, Marine Galardi and Regile Zell, it was important about the tabernacle, the entering of the Holy of Holies.

We had a huge mockup of the tabernacle and all of the steps to get into the Holy of Holies. And then we were taught about how the praises, we enter his gates with thanksgiving and into his courts with praise, all taken from the Word of God.

But nonetheless, I do remember a lie to being spoken about and the error and I think the... difficulty comes when the manifest sons of God begins and I'm going to be having an interview very soon with some people that I saw on your show, the Pelagrinos, and Dean Briggs and some of these other NAR leaders that have beliefs about the manifest sons of God. It's nothing they teach you on Sunday morning. You kind of got to read between the lines and if they think they can trust you, you might get the full dose someday, but I think that if there's dissent from their thinking,

they ice those people out and get rid of them. Absolutely, and that's part of the Moses model. It's basically an us versus them mentality, but what they did was they took the Moses model and turned it far more extremely authoritarian. In other words, the people at the top are beyond any sort of accountability because they are the next thing to God under the manifested sons of God theology.

So you had all of these different theologies manifest sons of God, Joel's army where they're trying to, I don't know if we've talked about this or not, the Joel's army theme. So from the book of Joel, Pentecostalism from 1906 when it was rebirth, Pentecostalism looked at the phrase in Joel 2, the prophecy of Joel 2, where it says, behold, I'll pour my spirit out on all flesh. They said this was the outpouring that happened at Azusa Street Revival. So we're looking at this prophecy and because of British Israelism, they can now take it out of its

historical context with ancient Israel. The prophecy was to ancient Israel and apply it. We'll later reign took it a step further. Now Pentecostalism is dying out. They started focusing on different phrases and thinking we need to summon God. We've now watched the Pentecostal movement die out. We have not seen, they were believing in the rapture. We've not seen the rapture happening.

Therefore, it's something that we did wrong as humans, as Christian humans. We need to do something greater so that we can basically summon God. And I'm using the word summon loosely. That's not the word they used. But essentially what it is, they were no longer looking for Jesus to return on his own. They were thinking that they had to do something first before Jesus could return. And if you think of the timeline of the wars and all of the fears that was coming with the wars, they were looking at each war, proclaiming that this is it. This is Armageddon, the end of days.

World War I is here. We're all doomed. And then when they weren't doomed, all of the ministers had to backtrack. And so all of the theology that they built on top of the fears of war, now they can't apply it. And so what happened was, I think to save face, they said, well, we were still right in our theology.

But God didn't come, so therefore we've done something wrong. So in other words, they had to summon God because they had literally had put so much bad destructive theology out to the public that they couldn't back up from it.

Absolutely amazing and I love when you explain all of this because then it makes sense as to how the different streams went into the different denominations that we see that have arisen and the strangeness by which they infiltrate even Bethel and things like this where strange happenings or beliefs are taught like they're biblical when they're extensions of, well, some have said, you know, cult like things or bringing new age practice into the church and so I guess that's the problem is that it's an extension of that is man-made that has come into our modern day

and you don't see it right away. You have to pick up on different things and you don't see the eliteism necessarily until they start talking about how you need the apostles or you need the prophets and you have to listen to them, taking away everything Jesus died for, that we have an advocate, we go straight to and we talk to the Holy Spirit.

So this is all faulty and it's destructive and it makes them glorified and that's why I think that is what ushers in mega wealth to the mega church establishment right now. They get to be wealthy.

They get to do all these crazy things and they want us to be like them but in a way I think that they think they're the special ones. They do and it's a pattern that has repeated over and over and over again. So, Brannum was not the first Elijah before Brannum was John Alexander Dowey who said that he was Elijah and made in today's money half a billion dollars in just 10 years pretending to be Elijah.

You also had Frank Sanford who said he was Charles Fox Parham who said that he was all of these people literally trying to fulfill this prophecy for Malachi. So let's break that down just a little bit more. British Israelism as I said was the idea that we of the Americas and Canada and the UK are the descendants of the lost 10 tribes of Israel.

So therefore all of the passages written to Israel were written to Israel in the ancient world but they're also written to us in twofold manner. In other words if there's a prophecy to ancient Israel that prophecy was fulfilled long ago but it's happening again today.

And so again today we're going to see the same prophecy fulfilled in a different way and the liberty. He's taken with that is such that it could vaguely happen today. So they would start looking at some war that's happening.

They would look at different political events. It was heavily weaponized for politics. If you had some leader who is saying something that matched, well, they would use it with Jacqueline Kennedy. They would say that she's the fulfillment of Jezebel.

We're seeing Jezebel again. Well, all of this comes from this British Israel doctrine. The way that they twisted the Malachi theme was in Malachi, the very, it was a scroll. Just like all of the books, you could open up the scroll.

There were no chapters. There were no numbers. It was just somebody wrote on a piece of hide and rolled it up. And the very first, the title line of the scroll was the burden of the Lord, the burden of the Word of the Lord, to Israel by Malachi.

So to a Christian today who was never influenced by any of this, they would read this and say, well, this whole entire book of Malachi was written to Israel to ancient Israel. But what the Laterane movement did was they said that, OK, this is two part.

Yes, it was written to ancient Israel. And it was spoken by Malachi. But this is also in part written for us today, because we are the modern Israel under this British Israel theology. So when they read the last chapter, the Malachi 4 passage, when it said that the son of righteousness would arise with healing in his wings, somebody began to say, well, that's the healing revival.

We're seeing it in part today. We're seeing this fulfilled before our very eyes. So they were taking the old prophecy to Israel, revising it, rebranding it, and taking just bits and pieces out of it.

And so they would apply this piece of healing to the healing revival. They would apply the Elijah to the Elijah prophet that was coming for the last days. And all of this was leading to the great and dreadful day of the Lord.

And not many people who, this was King James that phrased the great and dreadful day of the Lord. Not many people understood that that word dreadful, if you understand the Queen's English, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's a bad thing.

It means that it's something that you need to pay attention to. It's dreadful. It brings dread thinking about it, in other words. So it wasn't always that it was a bad thing, but it was something that was important.

So because the word dreadful, because they just went through all the world wars, they started to say, well, this is a dreadful day we're in, which it is. That is one of the two meanings of that word.

And so they would say that this is the time when we need this Elijah to be made manifest. And this fell away when Dowie died. When Dowie... built his empire and started kicked off what would become the healing revivals. When he died, there were men who were trying to say, well, what happened? We thought this was the end. We thought Dauy was it. Gordon Lindsay who wrote this book that the man who did not die Elijah, he was born in Dauy's sect. He was a Dauyite. Whenever he entered into the Pentecostal faith, I don't know if we've talked about this either. In the Dauy commune in Zion, there were

a group of men when Dauy started to lose his mental faculties who thought, okay, he's losing his mental faculties. He can't be the Elijah for the in days. We need a new one and so Charles Fox parham comes and tries to take over. With Charles Fox parham is John G Lake, FF Bosworth and Tom Hezmohaut. These men, if you go look through the photos, if you type in William Joseph Seymour and John G Lake, you'll find a picture of these men. So these these men were at Azusa Street, but they were also in the Dauy commune. When Gordon Lindsay starts touring in

the assemblies of God for Pentecostalism, he begins touring with John G Lake. So Lake is influenced by the Elijah doctrine. Dauy was influenced by the Elijah doctrine. So now Gordon Lindsay is influenced by this Elijah doctrine. So this is something that is carried carried forward through Gordon Lindsay. So you you're explaining to me, like I was just blown away. So Brannum and Gordon Lindsay had a tight tie, right? And then so Gordon Lindsay started the voice of Healing magazine to promote Brannum.

And then Brannum left the field and had a nervous breakdown basically because Brannum struggled with mental health issues his whole life and you know they did crazy stuff, the levitating boy and and this you know this thing about that someone had been raised from the dad and the family didn't know anything about it. But so there was all of that stuff you know that I've just been so intrigued to learn about just the deception in the background. But this was really mind blowing to me when you brought it home with you know how the magazine

then turned into a movement leading to all of sort of these figures leading to Daystar, Pat Robertson and other people that that you've mentioned as well that basically get featured in the magazine because this was our only media. So whoever's featured in the magazine, well they must be it. They must be the big ones. This was early media and no podcasters.

to say, you know what? That wasn't exactly true how that went down, you know? But so that was the shock to me to find that link into and then into a school, I believe, right? So I think that it would be valuable to kind of explain that to the audience, because so many young people and families have been impacted by like CFM, CFNI is it?

Crites for the Nation's Institute. So Gordon Lindsey, like I said, he was he was part of all of this. He is one of just many figures who were influenced by both Dauy and early Pentecostalism.

The Gordon Lindsey was William Brannum's early campaign manager. I don't know if we've talked about this either, but he was also trained in Angeles Temple under Amy Simple McPherson's movement for for Square Gospel. When the when the Laterane Revival broke out, he had become a field district manager for the territory adjacent to North Battleford. So he's right there in the midst of all of this. He's probably attending conferences with all of these people who are part of the North Battleford Laterane Revival movement. But there's another key aspect of this.

So he was in the British Israel movement and he was speaking at British Israel conferences. When British Israel started to integrate with white supremacy to form what is called Christian identity, he is speaking at the conferences of Christian identity. And if you remember back, William Brannum was trained, the Christian identity doctrine by the second in command of the Ku Klux Klan. So we can't prove it. There's no way to know, but he is in conferences where he is the keynote speaker. And William Brannum's mentor is widely famous in the United States for his titles with the Klan with other white supremacy groups. He is also a director on the board of the

Fundamentalist Association, all of which ties to the theology that Gordon Lindsey was teaching. So there's a great chance they were, they met with each other. We don't know. However, Gordon Lindsey is teaching this. Here's where it gets weird. So you talked about the mysticism and the ties to this. In fact, so Cindy Jacobs is also on that same publication. I'll put the picture up so people can see it. But the one I sent you that had Daystar and Robert Morris, if you turn the page, Cindy Jacobs is on there as his other figures that are just unbelievable. Jimmy Swagger, I think,

is one of them on there. So Gordon Lindsey is in these Christian identity conferences. Again, the movement itself is going off so far from the gospel, they're trying to reestablish the covenants and they're not understanding why God hasn't came. We've seen the world wars. We've all preached that this is the end and now our churches are giving us backlash because we preach to them every Sunday. This is the end. Then it didn't end. What did we do wrong? And they started turning to other things. One of the things that entered the movement as odd as the sounds,

they were bringing in pseudo-scientists who were teaching pyramidology, who came in with actual, I've seen some pictures of this in the newspaper or some articles of this in the newspaper. They would go into churches with a constructed model of the great pyramid of Giza and talk about how this was actually written as a milestone timeline for us in the last days and we just never knew it until today. And so they're going around teaching that the pyramids are part of the religion.

We just, we didn't know it. This was a mystery until the last day. And the belief, I think I did mention this with you. They were measuring the King's chamber, the tunnel down to it. They were saying that this is a countdown to the end of days in feet or whatever was the measurement that they used. Whenever they saw an imperfection in that tunnel, they would say, this is the great depression or this is a world war. But what they were saying is basically, now we only have so much time left before the end of days. So they were entering back into the mindset, the end of days is near.

We must look beyond this. What happened when they brought this into the church was so unusual because now they're bringing in the idea of pyramidology, they're bringing in that middle eastern type of mysticism and with it came the actual mysticism. They started teaching that we, as humans, had a celestial body that our human souls would eventually go up to meet the celestial body. And along with this Elijah ministry doctrine, they were trying to say that during the 40s, whenever Laterane is breaking out, there were all of the UFO scares. They were trying to say that

these UFOs are actually the angels very much like the book of Enoch described, the watchers. They're coming down to watch us. And one day, the UFO will come down and take us to our heavenly home to meet with, to marry with our celestial body. So another thing that Gordon Lindsey published besides this book of Elijah, which I don't have copies of these, he published a series of books on UFO theology. So we're talking about a person who is indoctrinated with the Elijah ministry.

with Christian identity, with the celestial body, themes, with the pyramidology. So all of this is the background to Gordon Lindsay. Whenever Brannum stepped away, Gordon Lindsay started publishing his version of how the end of days would play out. So if you go through the early additions of voice of healing right after Brannum gets instantly famous, Gordon Lindsay is publishing all of these timelines of when the world is going to end. Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started, or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism, transition through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new Apostolic Reformation? You can learn

this and more on William Brannum Historical Research's website, William-Brannum.org. On the book's page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Steven McGummery, John McKinnon and others, with links to the paper, audio and digital versions of each book.

You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top. And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching. On behalf of William-Brannum Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support. It was all about the end of days. My grandmother told my mom that she would never get older and marry and have children because Jesus was coming.

So then, you know, my mom did get married and so my mom got older and she said, well, my mom didn't think that I was going to make it, you know, to get older, but now I'm pretty sure this world is so bad. This is in the 70s. It's so bad that, you know, I don't know if my kids are going to get older and grow up, get married and have kids. Well, I have grandchildren now.

So I don't say it. I don't say this anymore. But when you're telling me that they're tying in this, the weirdness to it too, we pray for the Lord's return, but I don't know. We might have still quite a ways to go because he's coming for a pure and spotless bride. And the way that Daystar has behaved, it's not pure and spotless. It's not, you know, it's not wrinkle free.

It's got a lot of wrinkles. And the way that the mega churches have behaved now is a lot of wrinkles. It's not pure. All of the sexual immorality, all of this stuff that is breaking out, like in the Calvary churches in the United States, that's being pointed out, you know, I've had a real issue with Candace Owens, but even a clock is right twice a broken clock is right twice a day. And she's calling out some of the sin in the church. Now, she's converted to Catholicism.

So I've if she wants to throw stones at any other denomination, they're gonna come right back at the Catholic Church too, especially for sexual sin and these things that have happened. But I think that really, and this rapture stuff that's been happening lately, all of these preachers that are saying they're calling out dates for when the rapture happens.

I mean, how do they even have a church the next day? Because they're wrong, it's false, it's nonsense. And it seems like this has been going on an awful long time. How on earth did something so heretical or ridiculous end up being in the backdrop of people like Pat Robertson or even Robert Morris or Daystar, Cindy Jacobs?

Like this is all the background of it. And then they have their beliefs too about this elitism, you know? So it's just, we don't know, and at least you're bringing this to light, but it's all interesting.

And so people who don't know, they want the Brannum anointing. Like Stephen Holmstrom here in Canada and other Brannumites, they want the Brannum anointing. They have no clue what they're talking about. You know, it all comes down to this history.

So whenever these people were coming up with these dates, the way it worked in British Israelism, especially after Christian identity and you had these weird things like the pyramid, the length of the tunnel in the pyramid.

Well, what happened is like any mathematicians that are trying to figure out something that is unknown, they'll run calculations. And then the calculations might be missing some little tick or some little point that they missed.

So they'll run another calculation and another and another. Well, the movement got so used to somebody saying, I have mathematically determined the end of days. That's how Gordon Lindsay did it in the magazine.

You can see all the math that he used. I have mathematically determined the end of days. It's going to be whatever this year is that is in the math. When it doesn't happen in that year, they run the numbers again.

And they say, oh, I missed this point. We just didn't see it. Now it's becoming more clear. It was clear to us before, but we didn't have the bigger picture. Now we have the bigger picture.

It's more clear and they kicked the date forward a few years and more years and more years. And eventually people in the movement got so used to kicking the can that it's okay if somebody has this prophecy and says, it's going to be on this date because they know they're going to look for it on that date, but they know within themselves, it's probably not going to be on that date.

We're going to kick the can again, but I'm going to live as though it's going to be on that date. That's how the mindset was happening. So, Brandon brings all of this weirdness in.

The levitating voice is odd, but that was... wasn't the only thing odd that was brought into the movement, and I can't remember. I don't think we've talked about this before either. So when Brannum's mentor, Roy Davis, came to Jeffersonville, Indiana, running from the law for various crimes against women and humanity and fraud and all kinds of things, he's literally on stage with a, I think she might have been 15 years old at the time.

He's on stage in Jeffersonville, Indiana, with the girl who is at the heart of all of the law trying to take him to prison, because he's with this girl doing things that I can't talk about on YouTube.

This would actually be the girl that he later married. So we know that there was something there. While he's on stage, he just thrills the crowd with this idea that he knew the insides and out of spiritualism.

He had studied it. He was either a converted spiritualist or he had people who were converted spiritualists. And to us today, we look at this and that's just, okay, that's weird. But back during the era that he's doing this, spiritualism was widely popular.

It was spread all throughout the country, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, who wrote the Sherlock Holmes books, actually quit writing Sherlock Holmes and came to the United States to hold say-ances and get into the spiritualist craze.

That's how popular this was. So he's saying this to an audience that is very receptive to it. This is the years that he ordains Brannum, so Brannum is being ordained in this thing that is pseudo-Christian, pseudo-spiritualist.

When Brannum enters into the revivals, he creates a stage persona that has a backstory that no matter where he goes, fortune tellers can just pick him out of a crowd. And so the audience who is familiar with all of the spiritualism, they're like, oh, wow.

The spiritualists know this guy. He must be big stuff. And so if you go listen to any of his life stories, I don't think there's a single one that does not have a fortune teller in it.

They all do. Well, he starts to say that he would use phrases like, it's so close. In the last days, the two would be so close that it would deceive the very elect. What he's talking about is bringing in either the denominations he's against or the spiritualist world into this movement.

So he goes throughout Canada, throughout the United States and Canada, touring before the levitating boy, he was touring and claiming that he could move things with his mind. And if you had enough faith, friend, you can do it too.

So he would go into a church and have everybody sit in the audience and hold a bracelet on bring and see, do you have enough faith to move this bracelet? And anybody who has gone to school and seen the trick, you just move your hand just a little bit. And because it's on a pendulum, the little movement up here will cause the big bracelet down at the bottom to swing. The audiences were unfamiliar with this gimmick.

So they're thinking, oh wow, this person in the front row just moved the bracelet. And if you go to the very first sermon that William Brannum has about the, I think it's called faith as, maybe faith as a sub, one of the faith sermons. He is talking at the very beginning about moving this bracelet. So we have evidence from people who were with the early Brannum campaigns that Brannum not only did that trick, but he went and taught the elders how to move things with their minds. And so he's bringing metaphysics into the religion as what he's

doing. And people are starting to say that because of this, this weird spiritual metaphysics thing, he must truly be of God. Is he not the Elijah that has come? And so I want to say it was the year 1940, maybe mid 1947, out in Oakland, California, in the church of asexual predator.

Brannum was prophesied over that he was carrying the mantle of Smith Wiggler's worth. Wow. I mean, it's so crazy. And I know you've documented all of this. And that's why your, your website is so important. And where people can go, you know, you should just remind everyone, I know you do all the time on your show. But I feel like I'm just lucky. I stumbled on you because of sort of a connection, you know, with me doing the podcast and glad tidings and all of that. And I'm just so happy that I've learned this so that I can put perspective on the

deviance that's in the past of some of this thinking because that's how it seeps in. Like we're getting to the place, we just want the word and nothing but the word. This is my greatest treasure here. It's this huge Bible and JT got it for me. He got my name engraved on the front of it.

And it smells like smells like real leather. It's so good, you know, but it's a great commentary. And I find like I'm like, I don't want to know what people are teaching anymore. I'm like, I'm going to go to the word. I'm going to find it for myself. And you know, with, you know, technologies these days, it's easy to Google something. You go, what was that scripture? And then you can do a study on it. You can get, you know, a commentary, a Bible commentary that is of a correct and, you know, reputable person because this is crazy that this has happened.

And I thank you just so much, John, for the price you paid for what you had to go through for losing so much because leaving your family of origin and and the you know the religious denomination that you grew up in and literally going this is a cult and coming to that that is a crisis in a person's life to go everything I've ever learned is wrong you know except maybe the fundamentals which you can go to the word for but it's nuts and I'm appalled by it and even like thinking about recent days I remember when I was

a kid I thought something's really wrong with this guy oral Roberts telling people that if he didn't raise so much money that God was going to smite him and take him out like it and yet you know I remember watching that even on the mainstream news my mom and dad because this is where we got our information the national every night or you know what whatever was you know the the main news my dad was watching and oral Roberts had declared this and it was like I thought to myself what kind of Christian dude tells everyone that if you don't give me more money I'm gonna die like

is this the God we serve so I mean I was just flabbergasted but all of this nonsense can we we can be so easily deceived and I think God's bringing a new revelation of common sense and discernment we need to have discernment in these days so all of that is the background and you really had to have all of those pieces to understand the significance of what I'm about to say so as this Elijah theme is coming forward this is what Gordon Lindsey would later turn into the corporate Elijah the body of Christ is now going to be this Elijah and essentially if you understand

the theory behind that it's literally the leadership becomes Elijah William Brannum is teaching the manifested sons of God he is saying things like Jesus was just a man and he was powerless to do a single thing unless he first saw a vision from the Father so what he's doing is he's taking the deity of Christ removing it Christ is now just a human who died on the cross as a human he's actually less than a human because as we've talked about Brannum said Jesus had no mother Mary was not his mother so he has ripped away the deity of Christ

when he did this and people are now looking to this feast of tabernacles we're trying to get back into the temple the tabernacles the covenants the all of the old mosaic law everything that's written to Israel what they did was now the focus became on this Elijah figure we have seen we have had the children of Israel they went through the flood Jesus came Jesus was the manifested son of God for his day now we have something new we have a new manifested son of God And Jesus kind of takes a backstory to the gospel.

And this is called, Brannem even called it the gospel of divine healing. He didn't call it the gospel of Jesus Christ. And he said that these ministers who are in this movement are preaching the gospel of divine healing.

So it is a new gospel. It is one that is looking for a coming Elijah. So when I grew up in this movement, we weren't so much looking for the return of Jesus. We were actually looking for this Elijah more than we were Jesus.

Jesus was either off to the side or in some groups. The more destructive ones, Jesus took a backstory. The Elijah was it. And in fact, there are some groups that went so far as to say that the return of Brannem was the return of Jesus.

And now we're living in the new millennium. I had some guy tell me this actually. So you had all of this weirdness that's coming because they've replaced the gospel. But they've made Jesus a backstory or a side story.

The way that this worked. And I look back at this and I just I can't believe that I believe this. But Brannem started to say that he was able to peer into the other side.

Just like the spiritualist, just like the mystics. He would say when somebody would go through the faith healing line and he would declare them healed. If they died, he would say I talked to them on the other side.

And they're better off there. They're happier there. So we're going to let them stay. And that's a good way to cover up somebody that you just declared healing for if they die, right? But that is, if you understand what that is, that was punishable by death under the old covenant.

You can't talk to the dead. That's not what Christians do. But he's introducing spiritualism. Well, with the Joel's army theme, now he's building an army. And because he has made Jesus a side story to the Elijah story, it became the precursor to what is documented now as the NAR's God's generals.

He would say things like there was only one prophet per an age. And he, he didn't under, I don't think he read the Old Testament to know that they were contemporary prophets. But he would say things like there was only one prophet per age.

And then they had their people, they had their message. When the next prophet came, it replaced the previous message. And so he would go so far as to say that the gospel that Moses preached won't work when, or Paul, and Paul had a different gospel, Paul's gospel won't work for us today.

We have a new gospel, new message, new messenger. So with the Elijah theme came the messenger theme. The Elijah figure that is coming is bringing a new message, a new word of God, a spoken word of God.

And with this new word of God, this is going to teach us how we make it into heaven. So Jesus has taken a backstory, the messenger, the Elijah figure, this is the big thing, and then he started after teaching all of this.

He said, I had a vision where I was taken away to the other side into this place that was neither heaven nor hell, and I kept asking, where is Jesus and they would say he's up higher than this.

So he's seeing this basically Catholic purgatory, and he's watching all of these bodies of people move through, and they're going through basically to some sort of a judgment. And as they're going through, he would see this big body of people come through carrying flags and whatnot, and he would say, who are those people?

Oh, those are the people of Paul. Are they going into heaven? Yes, we believe the message of Paul. In other words, this body of people had the general of Paul, this general was taking their army through to heaven.

Then he saw a vision of these other people, and he said they were wearing, I can't remember how he he worded, but he said something like they were wearing the brightest, whitest clothes, but he said, who are these people? Oh, they're your people, and he said, are they going to heaven?

We're resting on the fact that you taught us the gospel. So the gospel of Branum was what carried his army through, his platoon, through into heaven, fast forward to the new modern movement. Now you have all of these people who are God's generals that rise and fall, just like the book says, but each one has their own message, their own people.

If they go off into a weird place of stray, they're still part of the army that's coming through. They're the ones who are leading the people into their place of rest. So when you ask any person who's indoctrinated with this, after they leave, what are you going to do? They always say, well, if you're not serving William Branum, who is your leader? Who are you going to follow?

Every single one of these movements has that mentality that we must have this general over our platoon, because they're the one bringing the message to get us in. It's no longer the message that you held up your Bible. It's no longer that that even matters. It's more the message of the minister, the leader, the apostle, the prophet.

It is the fivefold tier ministry, but it's more than that. It is a fivefold gospel, if you understand it. It's just mind-boggling. I can't even believe it. I can't even fathom that this is the kind of thing, and in general, we have no idea.

If we don't have you talking about it, there's a lot of people just have no idea about this. And I didn't until the last couple of years, and it's been really revolutionary for me to understand that history matters.

It matters what the foundation was. If the foundation is faulty, even the Bible talks about this. If it's built on... and on levitating boys and false doctrines and crazy mysticism, then what is built all on top of that?

And it makes me wonder if this is the crumbling that we're seeing, if this is the exposure, you know, and where this is all going. I don't know if you have any predictions about that, but where is it all going with all of these, you know, churches denominations built on something that hasn't been correct?

And they've got right somewhere inside their thinking, they believe these crazy things, you know, and they don't even say it out loud unless you press them. Well, that's where history does matter, because if you go back and you look at John Alexander Dowey, who also taught his people that he was Elijah, every single person in his group thought he was it, he's the one to carry them through to the other side.

And they had, I don't know if we've talked about this either, they were taking out something like thousand year leases on their properties when they would join, join the design commune. And it was really, really weird, some of the things that they taught, because they were believing that Dowey was going to take them into the new millennium where they would live for a thousand years.

So when he died, everyone who's indoctrinated with this is left with the feeling, well, what just happened? We believed he was the one, now he's not the one, and because you're so indoctrinated of this mindset that you need a figure who is the mediator between God and man.

Well, now you start to look at a different one. Who's the next one? Who's the other guy? I followed him, I thought he was it, he must not be it. But he was, they would use phrases like, he's a shadow of the things to come.

We followed Dowey, now something greater. So Brannum goes to Zion City, and he tells the people that of Zion City, that Dr. Dowey died on one day, and I was born the very next day.

And he would say things that, like he is the, he basically, he's saying that he is the Elisha to John Alexander Dowey's Elijah. It's what he's saying. So every one of those people who believed Dowey is him, now they're seeing Brannum as this new thing.

And so he would do this when he went from group to group he even did it in the Mormon church. He went to a Mormon group, and they had a William Brannum prophecy. So he sucked in some of those people.

So what happened is as you're sucking all of these various people out of all of these various cults, you're building a bigger cult, a bigger movement, and these movements of people would be attracted to Brannum until something happened that they no longer believe Brannum.

That's where Gordon Lindsay was so powerful. As soon as somebody fell out of the Brannum cult, well now there's a hundred more cults that they can get sucked into. Some of them went on to become ministries that maybe weren't so destructive.

but others believe this entire theology, hookline and sinker, so they're teaching this new gospel and went even further more destructive than what Brannemism was at that period of time. So Gordon Lindsay enabled the foundation that we see today in all of this new apostolic reformation.

Well, and there it is. There it is. And then look at the pictures that you showed earlier of these mega leaders, mega churches, influencers, and all of it coming from Gordon Lindsay. What an incredible, well, what an incredible gift you're giving us to help us to understand it all.

I just pray that whatever is real is what's left after the fire of God's, you know, his justice, his judgment, God's fire of purification that's happening right now where the exposure is bringing out the bad guys that whatever is left and what's left standing that that is the purity that we can believe.

I'm just, you know, we did a little home church here and I think that's the way I like it now. I am so done with the mega churches and the money and what happens to people when that engulfs them because I think with Brannum, I mean, they started realizing they could get a lot of funds from all of this.

And we want to just get back to the real gospel and I think maybe, you know, if people can't find a home church, even just starting one invite some friends over and start just enjoying the goodness of God without all the, you know, the rift raft going on.

Absolutely. Well, hopefully I've done this justice. Like I say, I tried to avoid the theology because the history is really where my focus is and I have no calling to be a theologian or preacher, but I don't know.

I don't understand a little bit of this theology to understand where all of this came from. And it isn't really that I'm focused so much on Brannum. I'm like, I hate even saying the name.

After 37 years of being indoctrinated, it pains me to say the name, but if you don't understand some of the key elements of Brannumism, you'll never understand the New Apostolic Reformation because it was the foundation that created what we see today.

So important. I just thank you so much, John. Thanks for having me part of your podcast again. I really appreciate it. I am such a beneficiary of what you're teaching and I'm bringing it to my audience as well.

And I just appreciate you. And this is life changing and it's eye opening. It's needed and we just thank God for this. Thanks, John. Well, thanks for joining me. If you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.

find us at www.William-Brandom.org and lower-line-live. For more about the dark side of the new Apostolic Reformation, you can re-weaponize religion from Christian identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

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