When “Faith” Becomes Fear- Second and Third-Generation Trauma After Cult

Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at William-Branham.org and with me I have my co-host, minister and friend, Cheno Ross, pastor and the voice of the understanding scripture and truth by Cheno D. Ross YouTube channel. Cheno it is cold. That's about the only way I can introduce this. It is freezing. We have heat but even with it being eight degrees out it's just billowing into this basement where I'm recording so if you see me shivering it is

because right now we are freezing and it reminds me of to try to tie that into this podcast. It reminds me of the emotional feeling that I got from family members whenever I left the call. It was just it was just as cold and even still to this day. We've had this conversation you and I but I don't talk about it a whole lot on the podcast but there are various levels of shunning. We have mentioned this but my family, my wife's family is from Ohio and she grew up in an Amish community and became somewhat infamous in Ohio because she was

teaching at age 16 in an Amish school. It's a fascinating story and I've got to know Amish people and I know of all of you know the various practice. I can't remember the name for it but whenever they decide to go rogue for a while and decide if they want to stay Amish or become part of the Englishman's culture there's a there's a term for this. I can't remember it. I've met these people. I've actually worked with these people and I have come to know what Amish shunning is because one of the guys was shunned by the Amish so I know how

all that works. It's a physical shunning but in these destructive cults like we came from the shunning is quite different because the parents get so embedded into the psychology of the cult that whenever you leave they may not physically shun you. You may be welcome in the house but emotionally there's this wall that comes up because you are actually different than them when you don't believe it. They're called commune literally is in their head so there's this emotional shunning that happens and that is when I say it it's cold in here and it feels like that. It really feels like the cold shoulders you get when you're

shunned emotionally. Well I want to talk some more John about where we were last go around. We were looking at first and second generation, cult members, cult survivors, I think most, speaking of faith assembly and Hobart Freeman, most of the first generation of those people have managed to extricate themselves from the movement, not everyone, but most.

In that regard, it seems to me to be quite a bit different from Brannemism, where Brannemism is still going strong, you know, long after Brannem's death, but you still have these churches and these groups and these offshoots literally around the world with hundreds or you would know better than I, for sure, probably thousands of adherents or followers still a part of the message in following William Brannem.

Hobart's is not exactly like that, Dr. Freeman's. Of course, it was never as big as William Brannem's, it was never as widespread, but most of the people have found their way out for a variety of reasons and some openly, some under the cover of darkness.

That doesn't mean everyone is out. There are still people who completely adhere to Dr. Freeman's teaching. Even if they don't or can't practice every bit of it themselves, it's interesting that I have come across people who, when I talk to them or I see a picture of them, I can't help but notice that they're wearing glasses and yet they are completely in agreement with Dr. Freeman's teaching.

So you know, I find a little inconsistency there because that was a big no no, that was a taboo and you actually also will hear this, John, you'll hear people, the defenders of Hobart often, it's tapered down, it's time has gone on, but you hear them often say, when a Hobart, they'll call him brother Freeman, they would never call him Hobart or Heff or Hobie, like other people calling, but brother Freeman, he never actually taught that.

Well, of course, he most certainly did and that's why everyone walked away with the same interpretation of the message that glasses were definitely taboo. So I find that interesting that there's some of the people who've not extricated themselves.

I've talked about dear Kathy Kinsey, Hobart's middle daughter, she is obviously still in her the belief camp of her father, but I've also talked about Kathy Sun who's contacted me to curse me and pray for my death and eternal damnation in hell.

So that doesn't exactly square with being part of the group. It is just fascinating when you look at the layers of involvement and the layers of connection that people have. I don't think that...

Kathy would ever pray for my death or that I would burn in hell because she does come from, you know, a Christian Religious Bible teaching background, but here now with her son. That's a That's a third generation faith assembly person and and to pray for and hope for and wish for me to go to hell No, you know, no Christian is gonna ever pray that or wish for that for anyone And yet he does, but he's doing it in defense of the name of the family. He's doing it to I guess protect his mother So I just find I find all of these idiosyncrasies to be so odd

We even had someone Just this year who was a long time and loyal follower of Dr. Freeman's he was a Preacher his name was Tim Neely His wife had died Quite a few years ago. I want to say at least 10 years ago His wife had died. I believe of cancer and from the stories that I've heard from a variety of people it was a it was not a pretty sight It was a very Just a terrible death with a lot of pain and suffering involved and someone said and I won't say who but someone said the reason that she died was she just failed her faith trial

Failed her faith trial. I mean, that's there's not much heart. There's not much love and someone saying something like that And I know that Tim and his wife had a large number of children Some of whom I have spoken with some of whom I know and so this this this dear man It just passed away in August of this year We're talking about 40 years after Hobart died I neglected to say in our last podcast that was the the day you and I recorded part one of this was the 41st If you want to call it an anniversary and anniversary of some sort the 41st anniversary of Dr. Freeman's death

So we're 40 we're 40 years 41 years now removed and Tim Neely was a minister who kept Trying to hold on to and teach and preach Dr. Freeman's doctrine none of this none of that can't go there can't wear that can't believe this can own that can think that Can't go there can't confess that and can't go to doctors or take any medicine in the poor individual I felt so sorry for him as I heard from other people and from family members that he was dying and sufferings through it You know, I just felt terrible for him. I mean, I don't wish that on anyone

I didn't think there was anything I could do, but I definitely told the family members if you think of anything I can do for your father, I would do it in a heartbeat. I will drive there and talk to him.

If I could make any grounds and simply trying to point out to him the difference between what Jesus and the apostles taught and what Dr. Freeman taught. But you're likelihood of being able to help in a situation like that is slim to none.

I'm glad he was able to go ahead and pass away. He died in August of this year, 2025, so that he no longer has to suffer. But he died believing Dr. Freeman's teaching. So not everyone, not everyone, has extricated themselves from this movement.

Not everyone has been able to find and navigate and navigate their way through all of Hobart's complicated and contradictory teachings and just read the Bible and see the Bible for exactly what it says.

So my sympathy goes out to, I know he had a large number of children, but all of the children who lost both their mother and their father years after Hobart's death, but still following this same message.

I want to highlight something that you said there. You're talking about how whenever somebody leaves, you're never a Christian wouldn't treat them like this. I can't remember your exact words, but whenever we left, my grandfather turned the Brannum Tabernacle into a reenactment of one of Stephen King's books.

He said from behind the pulpit that for me, my wife, who he didn't even know if my wife believed it or not, she was just categorized with the same curse as me and also my children.

He said, I turn their souls over to Satan for the destruction of their flesh. And that's based on Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 5. Yeah, that's someone who actually had sinned, but for you guys, you're just leaving a false path.

Yeah, but the way that it turned the audience against me, all of my friends instantly, whenever you do this, especially for somebody, when we left, I was very clear with my grandfather that I'm leaving a Christian and he knew it, but yet he said this thing.

So for every Christian who's sitting there, suddenly thinking, oh my gosh, Satan's got that guy, I better stay away from it. We lost everyone overnight. And that mentality, it really, it becomes like a Stephen King book.

You're cursed, you're walking around with a curse. The people look at you like you're some kind of a zombie. And I felt like I was, I'm drawn a blank one of the titles, but I felt like I was one of these horror books, I was living this out.

And I've come to terms with the fact that you're in, a group that creates an us versus them mentality. That's part of the cult mindset. But worse, you're actually taught to hate those people who aren't in the group, and especially hate those who leave the group.

And so in a fact over time, I've come to learn that and just come to terms with the fact that this was a hate group. If you look at pure doctrinal teaching against outsiders, you see that it is nothing but hate going to the outsiders.

Yeah, it's definitely, you took the words out of my mouth. It's an us against them type of environment. And I was there at one time, John, in my late teens and early 20s. I remember exactly what it felt like because that's what I had learned from Dr. Freeman.

And there are two things that go with that. One is spiritual pride. And the other is just a disdain for anyone not a part of the group. So the spiritual pride part, has you going around looking at the world and then looking to heaven and saying, I thank you, Lord, so much that I'm not like these other people.

I thank you so much. It reminds us of the Pharisee and the tax collector who were praying there. The Pharisee said, Lord, I thank you that I'm not like this man because I have so many good deeds in my life.

And the tax collector just said, beat upon his breast and said, God be merciful to me a sinner. And Jesus said, I'll tell you, that man went home to his house justified. So you have the spiritual pride, which I had.

We all had. We were, we thought it was gratitude. That's the way we would interpret it. We're so thankful to you, Lord, that you have revealed this to us. But the other side of that and the part that shows that it wasn't gratitude, it was pride is, yes, we would definitely look down on other people and just feel sorry for them.

And I'm not even talking about people in the world. I'm talking about people in Baptist churches and Methodist churches and charismatic churches who weren't willing to pay the price and go the full way.

Yeah, we looked down on them and would despise those people. And it's just the opposite of obviously what the gospel teaches. So I know that you did an interview here recently, which I think came out last week, the end of last week on, with another person who was a part of Faith Assembly, her name was LL9, her maiden name was Nye, and she was a granddaughter of Don and Betty Nye.

And those are the two people who provided the land, they had a farm and a trailer park there, outside of Willment in Northern Indiana, provided the land for Faith Assembly to build their new building on.

They did that in 1978, but you can even go on earlier messages. There's one I can remember from 1977, where the question had come up at the Glory Barn, which is where they still were.

That was a name. of the facility, the name of the group was faith assembly. And I think some people, based on some of Dr. Freeman's teaching, had maybe begun to question or murmur a little bit regarding church names.

I mean, they just love to fight over everything because that's the way they were trained. But they were talking about church names and wondering whether faith assembly was a correct name because they sit in the New Testament. The churches were always named after a location, the church at Rome or the church at Philippi or the church or the group of people, the church of the Thessalonians or the church in Thigh House. It was always based on a location. And I remember hearing him say, well, you know, I'm open to that because you know, we're not going to be here much longer. We

are moving. And we could name it the church at Don Nye's Trader Park because that is exactly where they were headed. And that was a year prior to them actually moving. And so, so Lail and her siblings and her parents and aunts and uncles, you know, we're all a part of an important and important family in that church. And you were talking about, here's where I'm going with this, Sean, you were talking about how you look down and with disdain on the people around you.

I remember, you know, when I first came to know Lail, I think I had talked to some siblings of hers, maybe a brother and a sister of hers. I had talked to them first. I did not know who Lail was. And they said, you know, you ought to call, they told her, you ought to call this guy or text this guy, he's talking about us and the family name and, you know, our background. And so, she and I traded a few texts and then she wants to set up a time, I think, where we could actually have a

phone conversation and forgive me, Lail, if I'm forgetting some of the details of all of this. But before we had the conversation, she reached out to me and said, I just want to know if it would be okay with you if I record our phone conversation. And I go, oh, good Lord, here we go. Someone's setting me up for some big lawsuit. Something's going to come of this. Anytime someone wants to record your conversation, you know, nothing good can possibly come from this. But I had a good feel for her. She did not feel like a nefarious character to me at all. So I said, sure. I mean,

because whatever I say is going to be true as far as I know it, this is the truth. And this is what I believe. So I said, sure, so we did. She recorded. And I think it's because she really is the type of person that wants to go back and hear it again and, and make sure she didn't miss anything. So she can really process what was being said.

So, as I got to know her, then I'm hearing these stories and one of them, John, was what she shared with you last week about her dear father. She loved her father, loved her parents, her mother is still alive today, I think there are maybe seven siblings in this family, and they were long time loyal followers of Dr.

Freeman. I'm talking about today, first generation, second generation followers, and her father, 20 years after Dr. Freeman died a terrible death, is going to face some of these same situations himself. He had gone to the barber, to, I guess, have his hair cut, the barber, who can be your best friend because they can notice maybe things on the side of your head or the back of your head.

You don't notice, had noticed something on the right side of Lail's father's head or face and said, you know, you ought to get that looked at, you ought to get that checked out. Well, can't do that in these circles, you know, even to say that is a negative confession.

You have to think positively and you have to speak positively, and so he just didn't have anything done. And, you know, before you know it, what is something small that a dermatologist can easily deal with, you know, becomes a much worse form of cancer, and, you know, consequently this poor man died from that.

And I have read some of the things that he said, John, and he was so earnest, we're not talking about people who were cult members who were evil and doing terrible things and stealing from people and committing adultery on their spouses and beating their children and starving their children and locking them in an outhouse or in the basement.

We're not talking about people like that. We're talking about good people, sincere people. But you know what I said last time is that's the majority of the people that ended up at faith assembly.

There were a few shady characters to be sure, but the majority of them were good, normal, sincere, hungry people who thought they had found heaven on earth, who really thought this man, Hobart Freeman, has the answers for better understanding of the Bible and a deeper walk with the Lord, and that's what these people were after.

And so as she made available to me, you know, her father, first of all, is going to believe God. Well, it's not going so well. And you just think, I wish these people would have processed in their mind what people are able to process today through listening to podcasts like this and by other people.

that if the leader died of all of these terrible diseases, maybe I should rethink my theology. Maybe there's something not right there. But that is simply that power of the brainwashing. They have a hold of those people where even when you are looking in the mirror, knowing I'm probably dying, but I can't be because I've got positive thinking and positive confession.

And so what this man did is he rebuked and he claimed and he had deliverance sessions to free himself from this demon and that demon and the other demon, any possible thing. And in his own diaries, he's saying, Lord, I'm trusting you, I'm trusting only you and I claim I'm healed and I command that I'm healed and I decree that I healed and healed and I confess and I profess and I thinking that this terminology, that's what they were taught, that there's power in words, that this terminology is somehow going to turn this around for me.

And I just hate it that someone like this poor man who was doing the best he knew, following a cult leader died as a result of that. And so you have these children, seven children who go on with the next 20 years of their life up till now and from here on out without the father that they could have had.

This is terrible. This is terrible. To have people like Kathy Kinsey still defending her father. I know that she's just twisted in her mind, but I don't hate Kathy at all. I just feel so sorry for her.

I know a man named John Solinger has been preaching messages against me recently and I feel so sorry for him. I'm not angry or mad at any of those people and I would open my phone or my home to them any day of the week to sit down and talk about this.

There is a better way and it's definitely not this cult way. But here's just to give you one example of how bizarre

these teachings can become of how they turn you inside and they turn you against everybody on the outside. So occasionally I will get these sporadic messages from different people including from my dear friend Layelle.

And so here a few weeks ago, I get just this out of the blue question from her because they're all trying to figure out where did these ideas that I was raised with? Where did they come from?

They seem to be odd, but they're deeply ingrained in me. And so she asked me about free masonry. Just out of the blue question. the blue about mason's and Masonic buildings and Masonic lodges and here was her question.

She said, you know, I have a long memory in my childhood history about evil, evil, spooky, Masonic lodges. These are temples of demons. And she said, I'm wondering, did my parents come up with this on their own or was that something that they learned?

And of course, I told her immediately, I said, trust me, none of us had anything on our own. If your parents had any kooky idea, it's about 99.9 percent certain that they got it from Hobart Freeman.

And I said, yes, they got all of their ideas about free masonry from Hobart Freeman. Hobart Freeman wrote a book called Every Wind of Doctrine and in the book, he covers all these various cults and aberrations and, you know, strange groups, you know, anything from free masonry to, you know, the children of God religious cult.

And it's all in a book over there on my bookshelf entitled Every Wind of Doctrine. Let me do a quick aside here, John. I was talking to someone else over the phone this past weekend who was, he probably doesn't want me to give much information.

So I'll just say he was a song leader. He was the main worship leader at one of the big satellite groups. So anyway, he has been out fully, I believe, out of the cult for many years.

He has definitely fully out of the cult. Not a part of it doesn't agree with it, it doesn't believe it. Although he did tell me on the phone. He said, every one of these podcasts, I'm hearing some new little idiosyncrasy and it's dawning on me.

Oh, that's why I say that or believe that. It's because it's traced back to Dr. Freeman's ministry. But anyway, I'm on my first aside, then I'll go back to layout story. He told me just the most hilarious story.

He said, you know, years after we were out of the cult, he said down in the basement, I have a bookcase and on that bookcase, I had Dr. Freeman's old book with the title Every Wind of Doctrine.

And he said one of his children, probably adult children or teenage, I don't know, who has a little bit of an artistic background, had actually done some artwork on the cover of every wind of doctrine, which remembers talking about every false belief you can think of, had done a little artwork.

And had after the title, Every Wind of Doctrine, hadn't put in there except one. So the book had included every false religion, except Freeman's religion, except his own. Anyway, getting back to layout story and free masonry, so she said, Chino, I have these vivid memories.

of, as a child, being so afraid of a Masonic lodge. And we had one not far from our house. And it's like, you know, you got to get on the opposite side of the street because you don't want to get to near that building. She said, and I remember as a family, we would march around this Masonic lodge building, pleading the blood of Jesus, binding Satan, rebuking demons, and praying to God that this place would burn to the ground. And, you know, I just think that is a wonderful, but very humorous story. Of course, from Lail's point of view, it's traumatic because she said,

to this day, I've been terrified. And I said, you need to pull out a sleeping bag and just go lay right on the front porch and spend all night there. I said, nothing's going to happen to you on the front porch of a Masonic lodge. For her, it's very traumatic. For me, it's hilarious. But it also shows how spooky and weird a cult like Dr. Freeman says. And I told her when she's telling me this story, I said, listen, Lail, I said, and she wasn't totally free at that point. She said, I think I'm going to go visit one of these places so I can get free. I said, go knock on the door and go inside.

I said, I guarantee you, those old collagers inside there are probably not as weird as those people that were marching around the outside of it years ago, praying for it to burn to the ground.

I said, I bet those people on the inside, I said, if you want to meet somebody weird, you know, a, I don't know, bridge troll or alien, go to your local Walmart. At least that's my experience with the Walmart surround here. You can find some really strange people. Look, I don't, I'm not in agreement with free masonry at all and their little groups and their secret societies and all their rings and signals and all this. I mean, to me, to me, Mason's just, they remind me of like a club you would have been in as an 11 year old boy and you have a treehouse behind your house

and there's a secret knock and secret passwords and code. It's just grown men who have never grown out of having a treehouse in their backyard. Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation? You can learn this and more on William Brannum Historical Research's website, William-Brannum.org. On the book's page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen McCummery, John McKinnon and others with links to the paper, audio and digital versions of each book.

You can also find resources and documents orientation on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top.

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So you saw me here. I'm dying laughing. And I'm laughing. I'm actually laughing at myself. I'm not laughing at what you're saying. I'm laughing at myself and somewhat poking fun at everybody who goes through exactly what I went through because we all do it.

When you're in one of these calls and everything has been made secret and suddenly you discover the secrets that they're hiding, the very first thought that comes in your head is this must be part of a much larger secret.

I can't be trapped in this, but not just this little group. There must be something bigger going on. What is it? Then suddenly you come in contact with free masonry and in your head, all hell breaks loose.

I went through down just down paths that you wouldn't believe and I've traced it. If you go back in William Brannem's own history, the Brannem Tabernacle, key figures in the Tabernacle themselves were high ranking masons.

And there's some question as to whether William Brannem was 33rd degree or not. It's interesting that you find so many things that he puts fictionally in his supernatural life stories with the number 33, so it raises all of these weird questions.

The thing that you have to understand is that number one, when you do this, you're actually turning the secret societies into a much bigger demon than they actually are. I accidentally went to a lodge meeting.

This guy, one of my clients asked me to go to dinner with him. I'm sitting here in dinner and this guy gets up and starts speaking. I'm like, wait a minute. I'm at a lodge.

I had no idea that it was in a lodge, right? I had no idea that the meeting was going to be in a lodge. We had a casual dinner and then this guy started speaking.

It reminded me of two things and both of these hit me at once overwhelmingly to the extent I think I was laughing and I think the client looked at me and I think he was a little offended, but number one, I started immediately thinking of the annual meeting of the water buffaloes and the Flintstones because it's not much more than that.

These guys get up and they read their meeting minutes and then I started to look around and here's all of these grown men. Most of them really elderly. You don't find a younger crowd, it's usually the old guys.

I'm looking at all of these elderly people thinking, well, this is like one step away from spanking the little rascals in their He-Man Woman's Hater's Club and here's this bunch of old man, why are they doing this?

I know people take it further. You can go back to the Freemasonry history. There's all kind of weird stuff in it, but in the end, if you actually go to one of these You feel yes, it's a secret society. Yes, I agree with you. This is kind of ridiculous, but on the other hand, it's also kind of silly if you really think about it. I could create a neighborhood group of kids and we could get together and I could create a He-Man woman haters club in the back of my, although that's politically incorrect. A He-Man

something haters club in the back of my thieves haters, liars haters, something like this. Anyway, it's not as bad as people make it out to be, but you go through those and the reason you do is because you yourself have been in a movement and you've been tricked. And suddenly, you have to come to terms with either you accept these people duped me for my entire life. Everything that they have built upon this big platform, it's built on a bed of lies. What do I do with this?

Do I accept that I just suddenly was naive enough to believe this my entire life or did they really have some sinister demon that's sitting in a corner behind the pulpit who's giving all these instructions and it's tied to a broader scheme? I tend to believe that yeah, I was duped. Well, I mean, it's like I said, John, I'm not a, I don't believe in the mason's. I would not never be a mason, but I mean, they're just as you said, I think they're fairly harmless. When you get to know them, it's just like I said earlier, just a group of grown

men who still wish they were 13 years old in their treehouse club. I mean, when I was at age, we did have a treehouse and it was definitely no girls allowed. You might get a coup d from a girl, so you keep the girls out and it's just a little group of boys, just rug rats who are ignorant, but who have secret passwords and winks and handshakes and all that. So it's neither here nor there.

But of course, Dr. Freeman made it like, oh, it's a secret society. Demons are lurking there. And so if you even get near the building, you might pick up a demon. And he would have flipped out if he had known that, in fact, I'm editing pages on my website.

I've got it up right now. The original Brannem Tabernacle before it formed into the building that it became, they were held in the Freemason lodge. And then when it was first built, I've got a photograph of it. It says Brannem Tabernacle. It was the Pentecostal Tabernacle. And then 1945, he renamed it Brannem Tabernacle and put a pentagram on the front of the door. Like right above the door, you're walking under a pentagram to go into a building that was a Masonic lodge, if that's not evil enough. All this to say, the irony of Freeman being so hardcore against Freemason, and not realizing

that almost every thread of history that I go through, there is a Freemason tied to it. Because it was really, really common. If you go back before the 1920s, all these societies were just really I mean, there are a lot of people in them.

And faith assembly was a secret society. I mean, 100%. They wouldn't call themselves Freemasons, but they were a secret society. So I was talking earlier, John, about people who have extricated themselves. I think the vast majority of people are out of Freemannism.

They're out of it to one degree or another. So you have different groups of people. You have what I would call maybe the sneaky ones who they have not publicly acknowledged. They have not publicly apologized.

It's almost like they just crawled out the back door on their belly. They, and I'm thinking of some of the better known people like Steve Hill and Jeff Barnett, who were two of the big time ministers, two of the main ministers under Freemann at faith assembly.

You could probably call them a couple of the heavyweights. And so do they still believe everything Freemann taught? Well, I mean, listen to Steve Hill's messages now and you can tell he most certainly does not believe what his father-in-law taught.

So he has extricated himself, but in a sneaky fashion. And I don't think that's healthy. I don't, it's healthy for Steve and I don't think it's healthy for other people. And I don't think it's healthy for the people who were following Steve earlier in his life.

They need to hear a public acknowledgement because there's confusion in people's minds. How could you have followed this so wholeheartedly, but you're not doing it today? I mean, Tim Neely, the man I mentioned who preached it and died recently, he did follow it wholeheartedly.

So that doesn't excuse him, but at least he doesn't, he doesn't have to come out with a public acknowledgement against Freemann because he was never against Freemann. But the ones who kind of snuck out, I just said they just changed their message and they changed their address and they're difficult to pin down and they're difficult to find.

But they've come out, but they've not come out in a healthy way. The only way to come out in a healthy way is just to completely and publicly, since you were a public figure, recognize, acknowledge, and then apologize.

There is someone who is a friend of mine who is also a longtime friend of Steve Hills. And every now and then I get this weak moment in my life where I'm just thinking, oh, surely by now, Steve or Jeff or Jim Brennan, who've also asked, would you please join me or Malcolm Webb?

or whom I've also asked, will you join me and publicly talking about this? The latter two say they have rejected Freeman, but they don't wanna talk about the past. I just don't think evidently that they realize the damage that is still out there.

Malcolm definitely feels that he spent a good part of his life post-Fremen era trying to help people. And now that's in the past and they wanna, I don't know, save the rest of the world, but there are so many people still affected by this.

So this friend, mutual friend of mine and Steve Hills, I'll have this moment where I think surely by now, by now, I mean, Steve is willing to say something. We're all getting older. Steve's probably 10 years older than I am.

None of us have very long to live. And just based on the calendar, Steve has less time than I have. Jeff Barnett has less time than I have, just based on our ages and based on the calendar.

Why wouldn't you want to make right the things that you made so wrong and so difficult for people earlier? So I'll reach out to our mutual friend and I'll say, you know, if you ever talk to Steve again, tell him I would love to talk to him.

No judgment from my side. I'm willing to talk to him any time, any day about anything. And maybe we can find a way where he is willing to work with me because he's a much bigger voice than I am to help these people.

And what our mutual friend said, well, the first time I asked Steve, he said, well, I don't want to hurt Pam's feelings because Pam's one of Hobart's daughters, his oldest daughter. I don't want to hurt Pam, that's his wife.

I don't want to hurt Pam's feelings. And my argument was, well, I don't want to hurt Pam's feelings either, but how about the thousands of other feelings and lives and deaths out there? Can't we find a way to do it in which you don't hurt your wife's feelings, but you can still be transparent and help these other people?

So then the second time I asked him to ask Steve and he asked Steve, then it comes back with, Steve says, well, why are you still talking about Hobart? Why are you still on this subject?

And I had someone else ask me not that long ago, how many times are you going to exume this man's body only to rebury him? And I said as many as it takes, because it seems like every time we do another podcast, there are more issues and items, false interpretations of Bible verses at surface.

And then I hear from a new whole group, whole class of people who have found the podcast and they're saying, wow, I did not know this was true and I did not know that these connections were there.

So I guess I'll just keep talking about him for a little while longer. And then the third time, you know. I thought just the other day, no Steve has heard some of these. Probably he doesn't have the stomach to handle very many of them, but maybe he's heard a few of our talks together, John.

So the third time I reach out, say, he said, well, the third time I approach Steve, he simply said, I'm not interested. And so there's nothing you can do if someone is simply not interested, but the offer remains from my side and the intention, the good intention is always there from my side.

I don't have anything to gain from any of this. You know, I live a pretty good life. I think I said last time, John, what if, what would you and I be doing today?

If William Brownham had been a true minister of the gospel, had nothing kooky about him, had never contradicted himself, had never snuck around. What if William Brownham was a true minister of the gospel?

What if Hobart Freeman was a true minister? What if everything Hobart ever said and claimed happened? Then Hobart would have only died five years ago at the age of 120. He would have been just like Moses.

What if all of that was true? Well, we wouldn't be doing these podcasts now. I'd be out fishing or doing something different today. You would probably be a deacon in good standing in a Brownham church to this day.

If everything was true and accurate and correct, the very fact that we're doing this means that we have a history and a trail of bad things behind us. So to go to Jeff Barnett, Jeff Barnett taught this message strongly.

He was probably second or third or fourth behind Hobart as being the most legalistic and the most dogmatic. No one could go to the doctor. No one could take any medicine. No one could wear glasses.

Jeff is preaching at a church in Pennsylvania now. When I look at him preach, he's got glasses on. I see nativity scenes all around in the church background. They celebrate Christmas. I've talked to people who were at the service whenever after having taught no drugs, no doctors, no hospitals, no medicine strongly.

If you have to die, you die believing rather than live doubting. That was his message and he had people die and I would yet have talked to people who were at the service when Jeff has a child who has a kidney situation so severe they need a new kidney and Jeff is gonna donate through medical science obviously his kidney and his excuse or his argument or his justification which is a good one.

I agree with it. but it didn't fit the narrative from his earlier life with simply this, it's my own child. I've got to save my own child's life. But Jeff, what about all the other people who had children die?

And none of you guys cared anything about that. So where are we today? These are the sneaky ones who have extricated themselves, but they need to do it in a public way that involves public acknowledgement and public apology.

I was thinking as you were talking and you're saying, what if all of this scenario were to play out where Brandon was real, everything he said was real? I would be a deacon. Well, then I was doing just a little variation on that.

Well, what if somehow they honestly got all the money that they got instead of dishonestly? And I was inheriting millions of dollars because I missed out on a lot of money doing what I do.

I'll just say it like that. So many thoughts to play out. But in the end, like you just said, this life could be so much different. I went to a funeral of a friend this weekend and he died of cancer, I believe it was, in a movement that's teaching that you can overcome cancer, become be healed.

And in the end, we all still reap the same benefits as those who aren't in these types of faith healing, deliverance, divine healing movements. The only difference is we struggle more. We have so many burdens added to our shoulders as you're in the cults, doctrinal burdens, rules that the cult has imposed on you, lifestyle changes, all kinds of different things.

And when people escape, they kind of just go berserk because, well, now I've got all these freedoms, which one do I take first? And you watch people just bouncing off the walls and freedom going to the other end of the extreme.

And everything, like you said, if it had just been normal, if it could have been a normal church with normal teaching, don't add all of this extra stuff that we don't really care about.

It's not in the Bible. Who cares about your supernatural experience that you think is real? That none of the rest of us should think is real. Keep that to yourself. It has nothing to do with the Bible.

Maybe you had it. Maybe you didn't. Don't preach it. If it was just normal like this, we wouldn't be having the discussion today. But I'm glad that you're doing the discussion with me. Just, and some people got out in a healthy way, John.

It's taken on many, many years. I would call them the good ones. There are a lot of them. I think that they're probably in the majority. And the reason I think they're in the majority is because I think that the majority of the people that got in in the first place, at least into Hobart Freeman's church and ministry, got in with...

good intentions and good motives. So the good ones, God has been merciful to all of them. And us, I include myself, they have been able to extricate themselves. However, we just have this incredible dynamic that's happening now. It's happened in the past. It's ongoing where that first generation has exited with lots of shame. If they're the good ones with lots of shame and lots of guilt, I've heard from so many of them, I can't believe they tell me I was so gullible. And I fell for crazy ideas that didn't work. And then you have their children. That's this second generation.

Like Lail and her siblings and just hundreds and hundreds of others who didn't join the group, but who were born into the group. Again, Lail, forgive me if I'm wrong on my days, but I think she told me that she was born right after Dr. Freeman died. That means this woman never saw him, never heard him. She was in her mother's womb the first year of her life, the last year of Dr. Freeman's life. She didn't even know the man. And yet she grew up under that shadow and the influence of that man and his ministry and his teaching that doesn't happen in normal church Christian circles. If one

minister dies and he was a good and godly man, you're not like remembering him and preaching his sermons in the next 40 years because there's someone else that's equally as good and godly. And you simply go to their church, not with a cult church. That founding member, that person of personality, he just holds a long spell over that group of people and just casts a really long shadow. So first generation, second generation, the second generation, they struggle with relationships. They struggle with trust. Some of them trust too much and some of them don't trust enough. Some of them trust everybody. Some of them don't trust anybody. As you just said, you know,

you don't know which extreme people are going to end up going to. They don't know how to set boundaries. They deal with anxiety. They deal with fear. And now they are having children. And they love these children so much. They're not being raised in the call. They see and feel what it's like to be a parent. And now they're looking back at their parents in shock and anger. Like, why didn't you protect me? Why did I have to go through this?

So we have this incredible balancing act here, John, of the first generation and the second, the good first generation who definitely went into this on their own, no one forced them to, but as I have said, as I've labored to say, you know, they were mesmerized by the message and the messenger, and it did not really point them to the Bible so that they could grow in a relationship with Jesus and really understand the scriptures for themselves. And then you've got their children who didn't ask to be born in this, and yet they were. So, you know, we have to say that the

balance of responsibility tilts in favor of the first generation as the ones being responsible. They were the adults, young and immature, though they were. They were the adults who went into this. Children were born from them into this movement, and that's this second, and sometimes even this third generation who are struggling to find their own identity and struggling to find out how I am supposed to process my past and how am I supposed to relate to my parents today? And I would just say to all of them that for the first generation, those guys, you know, there's going to be

the need for a lot of apologies, a lot of patience, a lot of acceptance, lots of dialogue, be open to questions, lots of affirmation, affirm your kids and how proud you are of where they are today knowing the background under which they were raised. And for the second generation, I mean, this is, you want to talk about a difficult scenario. You've got the first generation, hey, I'm so sorry I did it, but it's too late now. What can I do to undo it? You've got the second generation. I didn't ask for this and look what I had to grow up in and among and around and look

at the ramifications. For the second generation, there has to be a lot of love and forgiveness expressed from their side. But I don't think any of this is really going to work or to set in or to take place until that first generation is willing to come clean. And we just talked about so many of those who are not willing to come clean. You've got to come clean. You've got to explain to your children any type of question they have. You got to be willing to answer it. And it involves a whole lot of humility. Dad, mom, you appear to me to be such an intelligent person. Why? It's

ever believe this, just explain I was young, I was naive, I was hungry, I listened to this man, he strung this verse with that verse and the other verse and it all made sense to me back then.

Does it now know? No, but back then did it? Yes, but we need to have this dialogue and this next generation, this second generation, they're going to have to practice an incredible amount of maturity on their part to be able to look to their parents and say, Mom and Dad, I forgive you, but we need to have this conversation. You do need to come clean. I talked about the sneaky ones who've extricated. There's probably another group, John, that I might call the pretend group, who somehow they have managed. They weren't leaders, so they don't have to stand up and announce to the entire

public what they did and taught and believed and propagated wrong, but they were still the parents and they just found a way to just kind of slide into on a greasy trail, slide into a new lifestyle where now they are wearing glasses and now they do go to the doctor, but there's never been an explanation to their children about this transition period. And some of them didn't go to the doctor or haven't today until something is like forced on them, like, oh no, I'm going to die if I don't go.

40 years removed from Dr. Freeman's death, I want to save my life because I'm in my late 70s now, and so they go to the doctor, but what they have forgotten are all of those earlier years where they told their children who had grown up in it and decided to go the medical science way.

Well, we'll pray for you and forgive you and ask that God forgives you for going to the doctor. Wait a minute. You're going to condescend back then and say you're going to have grace on them, and now you're doing it yourself, but you won't explain to them. Here's the transition that has happened in my life. I actually thank John so many of these people that I call their somewhat pretenders. They are kind of holding on to Freeman. They won't simply come out and distance themselves from him, and that's creating a lot of confusion in their kids' lives. Let me just tell

one last story, and I'll be through. And it goes back to my new dear friend, Layelle. And I think she shared this, John, in her interview with you. She's told me this story, but I'm pretty sure I heard it on that interview as well. And it speaks to, if I can set up the background, the type of scary

spooky setting where everyone was living on pens and needles for fear that they were going to say something or do something wrong that was simply going to damn them forever. And if you had been brought up in a normal Christian environment, which is one of love and encouragement, you would never have these experiences.

And so she told the story of because she was in a large family, she was normally around a lot of people. But on this particular occasion, I think she might have been upstairs, other members of the family left.

By the time she comes back downstairs, there's nobody there. She is not the first one I've heard this story from. It's at least three people. I've heard this exact same story from. She came back downstairs, nobody was there.

And rather than have a normal fault, which would be, I wonder where everybody went. I need to go outside and find them. She had an unnatural fault because of the unnatural way in which she was raised.

And her thought was the rapture must have occurred and God left me behind. And what I don't know what age she was when she experienced that, but I've heard other people tell me that what a terrible traumatic experience in thought.

It's something that when you have that as a child, it's never going to leave you. You're always going to remember what that moment was like. Had she been brought up in a normal environment where she was taught, your savior, the Lord Jesus would never leave you behind.

He would leave the ninety and nine sheep that don't need any help and come and find you if that's what it required. If they were brought up understanding the grace and love and mercy and forgiveness and kindness and long suffering of the Lord Jesus, she would not have had to deal with that.

And that is just the tip of the iceberg of the kind of fear and trauma that the second generation people went through. I would suspect back whenever they were young children and it should not have been that way.

They should have been in an environment of so much love and support. You know, it was supposed to be a faith environment and a we believe God and we're the best ones, but it wasn't like that.

Larking behind the scenes all the time was this incredible fear, you know, the fear of the Masonic lodge. So you have to go on the other side of the street, the fear of an empty house that maybe the rapture has occurred and God took my mother and my father and all my siblings.

And for some reason, because I must have confessed something wrong, I had a bad confession or I had a bad thought. or something evil in me, that Jesus chose to leave me behind and take all of them.

Just very traumatic and my plea to the first generation and the second generation of these dear people is you've got to find a way to come together with open dialogue and with open arms and I bet we can see some healing as a result.

Absolutely, and that's why we do what we do so that people can find some healing. Thank you so much for doing this. Thanks for having me, John. If you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.

You can find us at www.William-branum.org. From more about the dark side of the new Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian identity to the NAR. Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

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