Andrew Wommack, Woodland Park, and the New Christian Nationalism

Hello and welcome to another episode have the William Branham Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host John Collins the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at William-Branham.org and with me I have my very special guests Kevin and Barbara Siste. Kevin Barbara it's good to have you back and I'm drinking my machine gun coffee so that I can be energized for this but it actually the machine guns might I don't know in a strange way relate to our subject matter. It might you guys don't know this but I have been as I mentioned right before we start recording I've

been pumping recordings out because in the holiday months I get all kinds of cancellation so I'm doing a few of them myself but I'm diving deeper into trying to put together some of the research that I have done into the background. I'm trying to dig and see more get more insight into the creation of laterane because I based on the trails of history that I'm going back to the birth of laterane. I'm seeing all of these ministries covering up their past and I've got this thing inside me that says okay if they're covering up I want to know what it is. What in the world are you covering up?

Well the deeper I go the darker it gets and the more sinister and long story short I have started to combine more of my research into the podcast I'm doing myself. This one that we're recording now will probably air in January so to things I'm talking about I think we'll come out before this but Gordon Lindsay and William Branham as we've mentioned they created this platform for creating hero worship the voice of healing with magazine which turned into the voice of healing revival. It spawned off the well it came on the heels of laterane but for a period of time it was spawning off new laterane

ministries and oral Robert was part of this T. L. Osborne word of faith guy was an editor in it Branham obviously was spearheading it and I'm diving deeper into Gordon Lindsay and I'm finding things that are just really sketchy. Gordon Lindsay was a he was a four square minister Amy Simple MacPherson's church left the ministry he his district was right adjacent to North Battleford where all of this originated well there was a period of time he left his ministry to start publishing books on Christian identity and that was in mid 40s I think maybe 1940 fast forward to win

Laterane was birthed after it started sweeping through the nation. He started publishing Christian nationalism ideas and Christian identity ideas in voice of healing, but you can't tell it. If you just simply read it, you can't tell it.

But one of the charts, and I go through this in one of the podcasts that I did, he's got these charts of when the, basically he's implying that the Doomsday is going to come.

And he will say things like, it's a decision point in 1948. Well, when you read that in today's world, you're thinking, okay, well, 1948's come and gone. There's no really value in this. But if you go back and you look at the timeline of Christian identity and Christian nationalism, Gerald L.K. Smith, who is a leader of the California clan, working with Wesley Swift as his right-hand man, the most notorious Christian identity leader in the nation.

They had created a political platform of Christian nationalism. And they were running in the years for these timelines. So Gordon Lindsay is saying, we have a decision point and oh, by the way, here's this Christian nationalist guy.

And then he's saying phrases in his timelines that are in full alignment with Christian nationalism and Christian identity. And he gives these terms like ages. We had the age of the New Deal. And he's referring to all the Christian nationalist Christian identity people were strongly against Franklin Delano Roosevelt and the New Deal.

They called it the Jew Deal, which is offensive. But anyway, all of this was birthed on the heels of the Christian identity movement, turning racist and turning very, very militant. And we start to see in the timeline, if you align them up, you're starting to see people becoming weaponized in these movements, which leads us to our conversation today.

Exactly. And I think we're just talking about the machine gun coffee or there it is, okay. Well, and interesting with what you've been studying with 1948, Israel becomes a nation. There's so many things.

Yeah. And it seems to all head back to the to the latter end. And even what we're going to talk about today, a lot of word of faith, which has come out of it.

But to get to the point, we're talking about a ministry out of Woodland Park, Colorado. It's Andrew Womack, Ministry's International and Keras Bible College. And Barb happened to grow up in Woodland Park and knows a lot about the town growing up there, a tiny little town right next to Pike's Peak in Colorado.

And we have this man and a movement, Andrew Womack, who appears to be a humble grandfather, type figure, just really calm and all that in his appearance when he's on the... platform, but almost a maniacal takeover is in place of the town of Woodland Park itself as kind of a prototype of what he wants to do to take over the nation, to take over the world, which is really a dominionist agenda. And I'll pass this over to Barb in a second, but I wanted to read just an excerpt from an article that was written in 2021,

May of 2021. And the title of the article is Andrew Womack urges followers to take over Colorado City. So in 2014, Andrew Womack moved his ministry from Colorado Springs to the nearby city of Woodland Park to launch Keras Bible College. Now he would like his followers to run the city and the surrounding Teller County. Man, as many people as we have here in the school board or in this in the school here, we ought to take over Woodland Park said Womack during an April citizens academy that was hosted by the 501 C4 political organization he founded in 2017,

Truth and Liberty Coalition. Remember that. And that was designed to help believers get involved in politics. The county ought to be totally dominated by believers. Now the interesting thing about this is I was looking this up. That's a quote from him. Yeah, that was a quote from him. The Truth and Liberty Coalition this year had a conference September 11 through 13 at Keras Bible College.

And the speakers that were scheduled for this event were Andrew Womack, pastor from Detroit named Lorenzo Sewell, and Charlie Kirk, who was murdered the day before. But this is this is the crowd. This is the Lance Walnell crowd, the the Seven Mountains crowd, combined word of faith with positive confession, faith as a force, guaranteed health and wealth, all the things, Dominion nationalism and really Christian supremacy at an extreme extreme level.

So with that, I'd like to pass it over to you, Barb, because you grew up in this town and you know far different town before 2014. Yeah, I've had family in that area for over 52 years, and we, you know, it was a small sleepy town of a couple thousand when I grew up. It's almost 10 or so now. But I think one of the things that has been alarming to me is just the duplicity with which he's come into the town. Obviously, it's, you know, there's lots of churches in the town, different denominations, all the things that you would expect.

growing up there, it's one of those towns where people, you know, as a kid, I always used to say it, especially in high school, people know what you did before you did it. So everybody kind of knew everybody, there was one high school, there was one grocery store, you know, a couple banks eventually, you know, I remember the big thing was when we got McDonald's my junior year in high school because we didn't really have fast food and everything was at Pizza Hut because that was our big fancy restaurant. So every like schoolcast party, baseball, wind, celebration,

every kind of thing was at Pizza Hut. And so obviously people grow in towns evolve, where I get concerned about this and this is what's weird as someone who professes Christ as a Christian. Colorado Springs became a hotbed of ministries because the Colorado government changed the law for 501c3s and they got a big tax break. So a lot of people moved in, moved their ministries into Colorado Springs, I don't remember, I just remember when I was a kid, there was a big issue and there was some drama because when Dobson put up his focus on the family,

he put it where in a big swath where there was an elk migration path and people were trying to protest the focus on the family where he was putting it because at that time there was nothing out there. But what's interesting is you would think a town that is, I would say mostly pretty conservative, very Christian, would be excited about having a Bible college and you know, but what's happened is when he moved up there, it's turned into kind of a takeover and he says things like taking over the town, he says things like it's a prototype city, they're doing 11 in

the state of Colorado as prototypes and how to take over the political environment unto,

he calls it Christianity, but it looks like Christian supremacy to me and it does, can't coexist with democracy as democracy is defined by our government, which is really interesting.

And so what some of the fallout John has been that's really been alarming is people that I've known my whole life that I've been witnessing to and chairing the gospel with some know Jesus and some still are, you know, I'm still talking to, now we're going, wait a second, maybe I'm not a Christian, if this guy is Christian, if this is what Christ looks like, then maybe I'm not a Christian and so they're wondering about leaving their churches, then I have a whole new group that are like, well, this is what God is because basically they took over the school board, 70% of the teachers

were forced out. There's been businesses there, we're going to probably eventually in our podcast, we have several people that have run businesses there, one has been a ranch and children's camps since 1946. These are people that have been in the area that have built ranchers that have lived there.

Their families have lived there for generations. And he's coming in professing to be a Christian, but doing things in the darkest, most evil way. And it's this bait and switch thing where it's supposedly of Jesus, except for it's not a servant heart.

It's not coming in the fruit of the spirit. It's not about even evangelizing the people in the town that don't know Jesus. It's about bringing in the brethren who basically live at poverty level.

Several of them live in their vehicles. There's in my parents' neighborhood, they have houses where it's basically like 20 people that are Wal-Mc brethren live in the house because they've been told to give everything to the ministry.

So they have to all kind of be in these like commune houses in neighborhoods. It's really sad because a lot of the followers, they preach the prosperity word of faith thing, but the followers have to live in poverty because they're supposed to give everything to the ministry.

Meanwhile, Wal-Mc's got like a 45-acre ranch in an adjacent little town. And apparently the compound for the carous Bible college is like billions, I can't even remember, we'll have to look and get the real figures, but they're very excited about how much money they have to build.

And it's just been alarming the way they're trying to take over things.

There's so much done packed there, and you brought back so many memories that I had growing up. I've mentioned before, I grew up everywhere between Arizona and South Carolina, moving from place to place.

I spent a large part of my time in Kansas, but went to church in the Ozark Mountains in this little town in Missouri. And everybody in the town of Missouri lived kind of like you said.

There was a pizza hut, and that was the place where we all went because that was literally there was no restaurant in the town where the church was, but we would drive to the nearest town, which had a pizza hut, and that's where we ate.

Almost every Sunday, and I can't tell you how many pizzas I've had. They had a buff, anyway. As a good memory, I could go off in a tangent now, try not to. But the people of the church would go to this passion play where there was this big, massive statue of Jesus that was called Christ of the Ozarks.

And when you're in the movement, and you're especially as a teenager, you don't know all of the sinister stuff under the hood. You look at it and you think it's just a bunch of kids, they're worshiping Jesus, and they're going to see a passion play about the Christ.

Nobody told us that the statue erected and the play was directed, the whole thing was established by one of the most notorious leaders in Christian... identity. And only after working with Charles, as I'm piecing all this together, I start to realize, wait a minute, the town where this church was, which seemed like a simple humble church, was right in the heart of the mess, where all of the Christian identity people just came and went to hide, right? And it's all connected to the things that we're talking about. Charles mentioned in his research that his church, whenever they would talk

about the coming end of days, they knew where all the weapons were whenever the war came. And that's one of the themes that they're not going to tell you from behind the pulpit. There's this coming war in Christian identity. It's a race war. It's the William Brannum said specifically, blacks and whites will rise up and fight again. And something like the blacks will die like, I can't remember how he said it. I don't want to miss quote. But it is a theme of a coming race war as part of the end of days theology. I did not realize any of this when I was in the

church. And now that I'm researching identity, racism, clan, all of these things, there are multiple facets and components to it. But one of them is just simply this. You go to a church and it may seem like a normal church. It might be bad. This might be Pentecostal. And all of the brethren who are some of them deacons, they're just humble, simple men. And during the daylight, everything's fine and they're happy and you would never suspect it. And at night, under the cover of darkness, they're doing all of the things that you read about in the newspapers whenever it goes wrong.

And you're mentioning places that right before I called you for this podcast, right before we connected, I was talking to another person and their family is from the area that you're talking about. So there is a Brannemite concentration right there where you're talking about. And I'm not saying Womack is connected to Brannemism, but in weird ways, he is connected to what I mentioned earlier, Gordon Lindsay and Christ for the Nations. In fact, as you were talking, I had to pull it up to refresh my memory, but he mentions right on his website that he and his wife went to hear a

conference in 1972 at Christ for the Nations Institute. That is the school that Gordon Lindsay founded. It was a result of Lindsay and Brannem. And it's interesting, because like I said before, all of these people are hiding their past. Nowhere have I found yet to date where he mentions who was the speaker, but he gives great reverence to the speaker that changed his life at Christ for the Nations and taught him the word of faith. Now, there have been numerous ministers connected to Christ for the Nations. Some of them sinister characters in our history. If I remember correctly,

Hobart Freeman was attending the conferences during that time, and Hobart Freeman led his entire cult into massive destruction. We talk about that every Tuesday with Chino, but there's been some very notorious sinister people.

Christ for the nations, and Wilmak refuses from all appearances. He refuses to tell him who taught him the word of faith. He just says, I went to Christ for the nations for it. So here's Andrew Wilmak teaching the Christian identity and apparently the militant version of it and the Christian nationalism. And he got his inspiration from the very heart of what I'm researching.

Absolutely. And I think it's clear also that he's been under Kenneth Copeland. And I watched a video one day. This was a couple of years ago, but where Kenneth Copeland was actually anointing Andrew Wilmak. And Andrew Wilmak has admitted the fact that Kenneth Copeland has been a mentor in his life. And so when you consider the extremes of Kenneth Copeland doctrine, little gods and just the faith and faith and all of these things, the fact that they're great.

Yeah. Because Kenneth Copeland's grandson. Well, right down the street, there's a church at the entrance of town called Legacy Church, which is Kenneth Copeland's grandson. And interesting about that church, there was a situation where he was actually just pulling the congregation up, pulling them, but asking the congregation for money so that he can buy a private jet like his grandfather. So crazy, crazy word of faith stuff.

Yeah. And I think that's in even, you know, when you're talking, John, I'm thinking about the connections and one of the things that we had met with a reporter a while ago who did a

several part story on Wilmak and the compound. And so he kind of gave us some information. We did some research, but one of the things that I think Kevin knows more about than me, but the the current... So Andrew stepped out of Paris and has his truth and liberty thing, which is some other name, but it's... So, Paris has been handed over the Bible College, so they're training people up, but it's still on the same property. It's interesting that Andrew stepped out of Paris right as these articles went out by the Colorado Times recorder exposing what had been

happening out there at the secret. Right. Well, and what is interesting, there's so many things, but one of the notable things is the person that he put in charge of Paris now was a former...

Yeah, I'll get into that. There was something in Pennsylvania, it was back in the 90s called the narrow gate cult. And basically it was an authoritarian type cult that started actually going... Messiah College in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania. But there were teachings in that group that were largely based on Andrew Womack's teachings. And so this particular man led this this cold for about four years authoritarian, sexual, even deviancy, all kinds of crazy stuff where actually in the end his wife and his child ended up leaving in the middle of the night all based on Andrew Womack's teachings. Now the interesting thing about this is

fast forward from the 90s to 2000 I believe it's 19 and the man who was inspired by Andrew Womack and teaching that destructive doctrine in this cold is now Andrew Womack Ministries International senior vice president. This very man that created this cold has been hired by Andrew Womack.

I think he was prosecuted in state of Pennsylvania. I mean, there are ministries and carous Bible college. So this is the destructive nature. And so what we're looking at we want to expose this stuff to to warn because we see all the kids like when we're in town you know that are hanging out at Starbucks or the coffee shops and and they've got their Bibles but they don't understand the theology necessarily behind it how destructive it is and how anti-Christian it is especially when you look at the idea of the little God's doctrine. Right. And it's been interesting.

I just have to put my Bible on the table at a Starbucks in the town. The one is there now and the brethren will come and they come over and they say are you a brethren and then yes the yeah brother Womack is what they call him and they're the brethren of brother Womack and and it's I've had some I mean I've met some amazingly delightful people and they just they just seem to be all in and they're trying to run after the Lord and then there's a part in the conversation where I don't know how to explain it but it's like this glazed eye look comes over and it goes from

we're just telling your stories to like I I don't know what it is but it's not it's not the Lord and I you know you start to hear the giving up everything we sold everything we we used to live here and and again I don't whatever people choose to do to follow the Lord but I I really wonder when you have health and wealth and prosperity word of faith being preached from the pulpit by people who are living in very big houses driving very fancy cars and then everyone that serves them is poor as dirt and some of the people

are living in their cars. I mean there's been horrific stories. It's been a town council they're trying to get on the council of the city and the city finally has woken up to what's going on but there's been issues with people like living in their cars and because they're trying to be near the compound and there's not the accommodations for all the influx of people that came in and also they don't have money. You know and things like- 8,000 feet in elevation. It's not the greatest thing to be living in your car in the winter.

It's more like 9,000. Part of the problem. Well and I think one of the other issues is they keep making promises to the city because there are 501C3 and C4, their tax exempt. So all these people are now coming in. They have this massive compound. They're using city water, city, you know, police, city, everything and the problem is they're not paying taxes. So they build up these new dorms and they were like we're going to we're going to pay taxes on the dorms because it's going to take more from the city and then they reneged on it and got a lawyer team and said we

don't we decided we're not going to and what are you going to do. So it's just really disingenuous. It's not the Lord. It's not what Jesus calls us to be servants of light and truth and- No and that's that's one of the reasons why we want to speak to. It's because of the people that that we know there and elsewhere that this is not Jesus. This is not the Jesus of the Bible.

This is something altogether different that they were seeing and we're seeing in a in a lot of different places now. It is widespread and it's very troubling. I um you you probably don't know this. It has just now kind of kicked off and in fact I think this Thursday maybe the first one where it's actually a podcast series but I've been doing a podcast a started a podcast series with a lady who was in youth for a youth with a mission who'd gone on outreach programs and escaped it after a horrendous story. She gave she gave me her story on one of the our

Fridays our stories on Friday and she became a licensed counselor and she helps training she has a ministry training and helping people who are disconnecting or disassociating a lot of body, somatic training. Anyway we are unpacking youth with a mission because this is very concerning to me. I haven't yet came to the point where I'm ready to say whether or not it's a destructive cult but there are so many signs and similarities that you have to just say well that's a that's a red warning flag. This is this is very dangerous what is happening and some of the stories she's

telling me it's just like oh my gosh man I can imagine letting children youth being involved in something like this when it's so potential for a disaster. So we're unpacking that and I was trying to remember where have why have I been researching Andrew Womack and so while you were talking I was digging through all my notes and I found it.

The carous ministries they they actually a lot of the students went alongside of the youth with the mission missionaries and they would have you know they meeting coffee shops. It wasn't I don't think they were the same bases but there's this weird the mission doesn't seem to be about the mission they're describing which is another part of the story that's making me want to dig deeper.

There seems to be something else going on and you see the youth with the mission going into a place will right alongside it you see missionaries from that are involved with cares Bible college and you have to wonder well do you need both sets of missionaries what what's going on here doesn't make any sense.

If you're going to convert the people and you're converting them to Jesus Christ and you have two ministries that are very much aligned with each other they're running in parallel not in opposition. Why do you need both bases so not to give too many secrets because we're going to be unpacking that as we go forward with youth and a mission.

I came across it because of this and this was like a rabbit trail that never ends when you start digging in this now I'm bringing back memories of. Research that I had in the sixties where people were going into literally going into lockdown as militant extremists and you wonder is this the precursor to that and I'm not qualified to say but it looks very bad what's happening.

I mean we have our own stories with y-wam so that's a that's a whole other how close to the y-wam bases in color. Yeah there is y-wam base in color. Not that far and further and then the one where the shooting was is just up up the road towards Denver a little bit.

I do think there's some major red flags with y-wam I think there's a lot of the bases even just traveling overseas as I have I've run into people in country. And my takeaway has always been it's alarming to me how young they are and how unequipped they are for what they're in charge of when I've been in other other countries seeing them lead trying to lead stuff and we have come across.

Even just and when we were living in the desert working with people living full time in their vans and intense we've come a lot across a lot of kids that were former y-wammers that are now like living in their cars because they're so disillusioned they're so burnt out they were they were put in charge of things they had no business.

Being in charge of and now think you know hate God hate Jesus hate the ministries and we found ourselves multiple times talking to kids in their late 20s early 30 or turn to drugs and again.

Again. Once or twice that happens, it's like, okay, but we have seen enough now over the years that we have actually kind of had some conversations about what's really going on because the fruit,

and there is there's so much even with the family book with Jeff Charlotte just about some of the some of these organizations being a front for something else that has to do with government or with, you know, even changing the governmental leaders in different countries. It's really alarming because Jesus seems to be nowhere to be found. He's more a vehicle to get somebody in a country to do another nefarious thing. And, you know, I don't know to the degree that is, but it's definitely happening enough that it's scary. And I think with the roots of Y-Wam, with Lauren Cunningham,

the seven-month mandate, although it was less militant, the Bernie Hard Group, Bill Bright, names like this is as we go back and look at it. I think there's definitely some concerns with the Y-Wam group, and really more of a dominion agenda with the entire group that's not even sent, it's really a decentralized type of organization. Right. I think that at some point, and John probably knows more about this, people started to recognize that there were certain buzzwords that you probably shouldn't say publicly if you wanted your ministry to survive, especially after the William Brandham stuff and the Jim Jones stuff. So it's really interesting to me. I think that's part of

the reason we got duped at IHOP because we didn't know the language. And so when we started hearing things, and I'm like, okay, that kind of fits. So that's a new idea on that passage. That's a different spin on that passage, but okay, I'm open to what God might be doing. And then you're like, but I don't think he's doing that. And so I think it's interesting. So these guys, it just seems like there's so many of them. We were kind of tongue in cheek. We've been having conversations with Chris Berglund, who does the dreaming for Lewingle. And he's been pushing back comments on YouTube.

But one of the things that I told Kevin, I respect about him, is at least he says on his website that he's about manifest sons of God. I'm like, you know, I don't agree with it. I think it's not it's heresy, but at least he's not trying to do the bait and switch. It's not that it's not that when it really, it absolutely is that. So, you know, for that, at least at least he's being honest.

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It took me a long time after leaving to realize that there were reasons why things were not as they appeared. And the deeper I dug, you know, when I first discovered the connection between the clan and all of this, I thought, well, the clan must be the agenda. But I'm starting to understand the clan was just the vehicle. There was a bigger, larger agenda because you see multiple players who aren't really aligned with each other coming into the revivals and you might attend a revival and here's this guy from the FBI who's sitting in this corner undercover. Here's this guy from the clan.

Here's this guy from Germany. Here's, and you start to look at it and you think, well, what is this? This doesn't really seem like religion. And you mentioned the family, which it starts me thinking down those pathways and I'd really try to contain myself because you could very easily get branded as a conspiracy theorist. But I will say factually, I can say these things factually. William-Brandham's campaign manager was the Baron William T.

Prairie von Blumberg, who was the direct, adopted cousin of Hitler's minister of defense, Warner von Blumberg. And he was a director in the family. So you're talking about the family. This is one of the big guys, right?

He sponsored William-Brandham's tours all over. He and Paul Kane and William Brandham went into Germany and during that time in Germany, they set up a foundation that literally established the and kickstarted the ministry of Paul Schaefer who went to Chile, founded Colonia, Dignidad. And this was the colony wherein all the Nazis escaped into the colony into Argentina.

Well, I haven't talked about it much. I don't want to go too far because the moment you edge into current events and current things happening, that's whenever you start to see weird things in your technology and weird people and black vans following you, which I have had. But I can talk about historically there were places in Brandhamism, some places in Canada I'm familiar with, different various places where there was this large concentration of migrants from Germany. And I was when I saw this, you know, as younger, I thought, well, this is just unusual, but now you understand declassified documents like Operation Paperclip, where

they were taking the most important minds in Germany and divvying them up among all of the people who, all of the nations who had conquered Germany, some of them coming to the United States, some in Argentina, et cetera. And you look at it and you're scratching your head thinking, wait a minute, and you start to wonder, was this really religious?

And one of the other things that is coming out in a podcast that it's not out yet while we're talking, I had come across some FBI declassified documents that was trying to determine was the Baron William T. Ferry von Blumberg, a spy. And I started looking at it and they're trailing him because he is under the guise of this religious ministry, but he's doing things that you just don't do as a religious minister. He's having escorts into his hotel room, mail escorts into his hotel rooms. And I'm thinking, you know, I talked with Paul Kane and he mentioned that Germany trip. And he said, in that Germany trip, Brannum

was never allowed back. And at the time, I'm thinking, well, maybe it was because of the homosexual thing. And when I combine this with William T. Ferry von Blumberg, I'm like, well, now you've got two people who are homosexual in the same hotel at the same time, it's actually three, because also Schaefer was. But as I take a step further back, well, no, Germany does not want people who are in espionage to come into their country and invade through religion. So now you have to wonder, well, yes, this was about religion to some extent on the surface of preaching Jesus. But it wasn't really the Jesus of the

Bible. So you can clearly tell these are men who don't know. I can assure you, Brannum did not know the Bible. I doubt he ever read it. Why was he preaching it? And you go through all of the lines of men who were in other countries as missionaries. They have really one job to study the Bible and spread the gospel. But what they're spreading actually isn't the gospel. So you have to wonder, what is this? And like I say, my conspiracy theory mind, I want to go there. But for the sake of religious history, I don't go there.

So John, it's interesting because I have a quote here from Andrew Womack concerning that idea that maybe this is about something else. Well, he says revival is not coming through the prayer closet. He said this at the Truth and Liberty Conference. He said revival is coming through the ballot box. As well, Lance Walnell once said on one of Womack's Truth and Liberty broadcasts, it's about how to storm the cockpit and take over the plane of a nation. And I think that's what...

We're talking about, you know, you were mentioning Brannum and the idea that he was using religion, you know, but it was really a political movement and money movement. You wonder about this stuff, especially word of faith, prosperity gospel.

What you were saying before, Barbara, about like the kids having to just sell everything and move up there so that they can, you know, be a part of this man's vision and it's so incredibly sad.

And since we've been duped ourselves and been involved in things that we shouldn't have been, we want to get the word out there and tell people, no, those little things like where you were just mentioning John, like you're in it and you're like, something about that doesn't sound right.

Well, and that's those things, those times that we need to say, we need to move away from it. One of the things in my travels, pre-keven, you know, I spent a lot of time in different countries in Asia and across Europe and in Alaska.

And it's really interesting to me what I discovered is interesting that a lot of people that I met that were missionaries, called themselves missionaries in the mission field, instead of what you talked about a couple of seconds ago, John about just reading their Bible and preaching the gospel.

What I found with a lot of the people were pushed out of churches in the United States because they couldn't, they didn't agree with the leadership and they wouldn't conform to whatever the doctrine was of that denomination.

So they got offended because they weren't allowed to be on leadership in American church. So they either fled even to Alaska, still America, but and decided to, you know, they're not the best and brightest always of the United States.

A lot of them are people that wanted to run stuff, found it to be a really easy thing. You know, and I've told Kevin, you get some sort of special VIP status. It feels like in a lot of nations just by being from the United States.

And so a lot of people have capitalized on that over the last. And I've met so many people that are missionaries overseas that their families are a mess. They don't appear to read the gospel.

Their fruit is not good, but they're living in a cheaper kind of culture. So they have these huge houses or they have. And again, not always, not every, and maybe not even most, but there were enough that over the years, I've kind of talked to other people and global missions of like, okay, how are we training people?

And how are we knowing what they're about and what their core belief is? And how are we bringing people back if they're over there because the health and and well-being of the missionary should be important to the shepherd that sends that missionary out.

And if that missionary is just like, you know, independent, I'm just out here and I've started to church, that's a suspicious thing to me. And I just, there's a lot of things that I've seen in global missions for the last 25, almost years that I've gone, hey, wait a second, like how come we're not discipling down?

How come we're not pulling people out if they are, you know, having problems, you know, I'm talked to a guy in an Eastern block country and he was like, I don't even know if I believe the Bible anymore, but he was over there with one of the big missions organizations and I said, okay, then that's your, you need to come home.

Like, first of all, you need to get right with the Lord. And second of all, what are you doing over there? If it's not preaching the gospel and you're now questioning the Bible? Like, and I think what you're saying kind of reminds me, John Erujert book on Roy E. Davis as well.

The, and Branum, how back in the day, they would go from town to town. And once they got to the next town, right, they wouldn't know in the former. Anyway, that kind of reminds me of it because these missionaries are people that don't fit in or going elsewhere and spreading something that's just.

Because they want to be in charge and they can't be because they have to be accountable. And those are just the ones in good places. It's a religious version of the music man only not nearly so good.

Right? You know, like I said, I dig into this and there are things that just make you really scratch your head. I have so many pieces of the puzzle that I could probably put more of it together than I do, but there's a little bit of risk in doing it if it's realized in modern terms.

The Roy Davis stuff, I can talk about that all day because it's ancient history, but you look at the formation of the Sharon Orphanage. It was happening at the same exact time Roy Davis was setting up his orphanage and you had a congressman from Georgia who was the department of Americanism which was a keyword for the clan as the clans being birthed in California or re-birthed in California.

But I came across things like Roy Davis who was posing as a federal agent and you look at the timelines and you really start to question because the birth of the lettering movement is also the birth of the CIA.

I don't know if you guys knew this. The timeline is aligned fully and Davis who's posing as a federal agent which is a crime which he should be convicted of gets off of it.

So you start to wonder, no, wait a minute. If you got away with it, either A, they pardoned him which they didn't or B, he really was a federal agent and you start to wonder, well, how much of this is real, man?

How much of it was religion? How much of... it was government, how much it was something else. And you look through the photos of the Sharon Orphanage and they've got things like an airplane hanger with airplanes.

What does an orphanage need an airplane hanger with airplanes? And they're part, without the Sharon Orphanage, you don't have the laterane movement in the post-World War II healing revival. Without that, you don't have charismatic, without that, you don't have new apostolic reformation.

So this is like the epicenter. And there's so many great, great areas that everybody is hiding the past. I want to know why, I don't want to dig too far, because they're like a sense, a little bit of danger.

But just enough to understand that, for me, I'm going to take it to the point where I understand, okay, this wasn't religion at all in the first place. They're calling it religion. And I'm like that close to making that decision anyway.

But once I reach that decision, that's the point at which I stop, because you go beyond that and now you're digging into things that are state secrets. And I just won't go there. But I'm looking at it from a critical history lens and also from a doctrinal history lens.

And doctrinally speaking, none of the things that are the foundation of this movement make any sense. And if you actually read the Bible and you understand the concepts that are being presented in the Bible and each one of the books that they reference, you're thinking, well, they're not referencing it in the way that that book is saying.

So what is this? What are they teaching? What are they preaching? And like I said, I'm just like on the cusp of saying, okay, the whole thing was never supposed to be religion. Anyway, religion was a front.

And then if you wanna go look at the dark side underneath, you can do that, but there's danger there. It's interesting. One of the things that was, to me, to me, was like an urban legend when I was at IHOP KC, is I heard a number of different people talking about how Paul Cain was CIA because he was on the, they did some supernatural, the government made a special committee or group of people that were like trained in the supernatural and who knows?

But I heard it enough that I would always just kind of, okay, sure. So I have studied that and I have talked to Paul Cain about that. Okay. There is a movie which is an awful, awful, stupid, boring movie called Men Who Stare at Goats.

And it's got so many famous people that you look at the list of the lineup of actors and say, that's gonna be a good movie. And the movie really stank. I don't even take, I finished it.

But it's got like George Clooney in there in the CIA Operations Center where they're literally staring at goats, trying to use the power of the mind to influence the goat. And when I first saw it, I thought, this is the stupidest movie ever.

Years later, I learned that that was actually a true story. It was not intended to be funny. It was intended to be a, Like a historical movie and I'm I'm scratching my head Well, you you look at this and it is true Paul Cain was part part of this and I have enough Other people who back up his claim and some names. I can't mention. I'm sworn to secrecy But they are aware he was involved with both this and the mob And I won't go there too far either because there's some danger there But it doesn't make sense when you see the key players involved what does make sense is there are things happening that people

Can use as a vehicle to spread an agenda and it works both ways so this may not even this this whole thing that I'm talking about may not even exist today but the network exists and if the network exists and Say it's not even in use at all today. Well, what about next year? What about if we get into a new And it looks like we're entering into a new cold war Well, what if we do that does that network get re-reignited do we start using that and For me I could care less about all of that

But I'm thinking look at all the kids in that network in youth with a mission Which is why I'm I'm starting to go a little bit deeper and try to spread some awareness there because I would not want my kid Involved with that and you should not pay me to make my to let my kid do this. There's no way. There's just too much risk and Further if you're a Christian and you're seeing that they're teaching things that aren't really aligning with the Bible Why would you want to do it anyway? Why would you want your kid to be indoctrinated in something that is spreading

Seven mountains nonsense, which is not biblical so it's a big it's a big mess that I think needs to be cleaned up amen to that John I agree with it John I think it's I think it's interesting I guess getting Getting back to Womack a little bit One of the one of the quotes that that he had and this is why we're talking about this like is is this a a cloak Is this whole thing a cloak for really a word of faith scheme to make some money because Some of the things that are coming out of nationalism. Yeah, our nationalism a political which which you know

houses the truth and and liberty coalition so Womack was was quoted saying this that Believers needed to quit focusing on their personal relationship with Christ or Simply praying for the nation and begin getting involved starting with their school board So forget your relationship with Christ You know that's they put that put that aside because it's all about politics Again, he said we have enough people here in this school. We can actually elect anybody we want can take over this place. So you've got to wonder about these things as as we're looking at and we've looked at a lot of ministries lately as well, mainly because we've been involved in them. We've

been a part of it in some way, thinking that it was different and finding out in the end that it was something far different than what we thought. So now to try to expose this so that maybe if people, if they're involved in it, they might not see it. But if you can see some of these negative things, maybe to just give you that little tinge like, hey, I've got to look at this.

I've got to spend some more time looking at it. This is one of those situations in Woodland Park that we want to just highlight and lift up. Because it's not Jesus. And that's the whole point.

It's not about conspiracies and everybody's scary and everything's dark and it's not about sensationalism. It's about the Bible. It's about Jesus Christ of the Bible and what He calls us to and how He calls us to live and to act and to serve and to come alongside. And I think that's the thing is I've been spending more time again in Ezekiel 34. And what God says about shepherds who abuse their sheep and get fat on their own flock. But what He says, it's my flock.

And I think that's the thing that Kevin and I are trying to figure out here is like, okay, here's the thing. We've both dealt with a lot of broken hearted, broken faith individuals in their 20s and early 30s that are being tore up because they're trying to basically serve for no money in some of these situations because the more tired they are, the hungerier they are, the longer they are in a prayer room or the longer they're on the mission field, the more they love Jesus. And I'm like, that's not Jesus. That's not the Jesus of the Bible. And increasingly,

Kevin and I have, you know, Kevin keeps saying, I don't think this is the same God. This is not the same God of the Bible. And then when you add in all the, you know, the potential political stuff and, you know, promoting all that stuff, that to me just makes sense as far as like if it's not really based on God of the Bible in Jesus Christ, then the fruit is going to be very, very lacking and obvious. I mean, Jesus said, we will know a tree by its fruit. A good tree can produce good

fruit and a bad tree can only produce bad fruit. So, and the fruit of the spirit is the fruit we're looking at. It's not stockpiling weapons. It's not Americanizing every nation on the planet. It's not getting, you know, a certain party in office. I mean, I find it just fascinating that Jesus never ever touched the government officials never talked about it just give to Caesar what a Caesar's give to me What is mine but beyond that His all of his any kind of criticism was with the religious leaders of the day Those are the ones that he was calling out he and he if we're not of this world and where this is not our home

then I you know I'm part of something else But now but not in the way of the kingdom now and the dominion now It's not it and so the nuance John the language is so important Because if you don't talk about the nuance you look lose it You know and one one more vote from Andrew Walmick if I could just because this so this one's a good one and you'll appreciate it John Walmick was part of a group of pro Trump prophets who claim that Almighty God once Donald Trump to make America great again Even if a 2024 Trump victory leads to a civil war

Andrew Walmick said, but it would be worth it to turn this nation back. I believe it would so This is this is the kind of rhetoric that we're dealing with and I'm sure you've heard it before as you've looked at the latirane, but But yeah, some scary stuff coming out of this community. It doesn't look like it doesn't look like laying down my life and taking up my cross daily And there were citizens denying myself another place citizens of heaven and ambassadors here loving my neighbor as I love my side It doesn't look like that doesn't look like Jesus. Well picture this

And you can see these photographs online of tens to hundreds of thousand people who are coming into these revivals And they're looking at William Brannum was the foremost leader Even recognized by historians as the leader of the revival movement He would come and he would preach and he would teach and after teaching he would Was invited into the churches by many of the ministries who were in those meetings of hundreds of thousands of people Which sparked the whole revival and basically laid the groundwork for everything that we see today in this movement And he's coming out onto the platform and he's saying things like this as a Bible teacher. He's saying things like this

I don't know the Bible real well, but I know the author Now what Person who's looking for a Bible teacher to come in their church would listen to something like this and say that's the guy that I want to come teach our church Bible doctrine You have to understand that it's not a Christian movement that's based on the Bible It's a Christian movement that's named off of the the word Christian There is a difference It can be Christian and based off the Bible or it can be Christian and we're just calling it this I drive a Ford

You know SUV I could say well, that's a Porsche SUV and everybody riding with me could say, it is not, it's a Ford, and I don't do that because it's a lie, I'm not going to do that, but that's essentially what these guys were doing. They were taking the word Christian, the name Jesus, they were branding it differently, totally different religion, and that's why you see mysticism and all of these other things. It's just not based on the Bible, but thank you so much for doing this. There's so much more, actually, I want to talk about. Maybe we could come back and talk about more later in the future.

Sounds good. Thanks for having us. Thanks, sir. Awesome. If you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at William-Brandom.org and Pellegrino Walk YouTube channel. For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR. Available in Amazon, Kindle and Audible.