When Deliverance Looks Like Shamanism: A Former Insider Speaks Out

Music Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Brandham Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Brandham Historical Research at William-Brandham.org, and with me I have my very special guest, Eve, former member of CARESMANIA. Eve, it's good to have you on and to share your story. You and I have been emailing back and forth, and I'll be honest with you, there's many things that you are you brought up that were interesting to me, some of which we can talk about, some of which we can't have unfortunately, but you were mentioning Randy Clark and some other things, and I'm

just like I said, I'm very excited to have you on. Maybe if you could just take a moment, tell everybody a little bit about yourself and your journey through CARESMANIA. All right, thanks. It's great to be here. So I am a fine artist. I moved to Mexico City to go to grad school and grew up in a atheist household. We did go to church a little when we were kids because we were southern, but my parents were very atheist. And nobody ever mentioned Jesus, never knew anything about it. Later on, I ended up moving to Mexico City

to go to grad school for sculpture and painting, and I always felt myself very lost. I had a lot of struggles going up. I'm not going to go into it, but let's just say it was pretty intense. And so I was dating this banker, and he said, in Mexico City goes, Oh, I missed my church. And I thought, Well, that's weird. I only heard people say how horrible church is, horrible church people. So I said, Oh, can you take me there? So he took me there.

And was a giant church called Amistad Cristiana, Christian friendship in Mexico City. And I went in, and you could just really feel the spirit. You know, there was this atmosphere of, of, I mean, I suppose it was the Holy Spirit and, you know, these beautiful songs and I was really just instantly converted. And it was really cool kind of to convert in Mexico City because they're so into it, you know, because they don't have a history like America.

They don't have just like casual church goers. Everybody is, you know, on fire and studying the Bible, studying everything. So, you know, I love that. You could go to so many classes. There were like grad school classes here. You know, it was a lot of deep studying. And they had a, they had just.

been like a school Bible college that was a branch of Christ for the nations, but in Spanish, where I learned about miracles, faith, healing. I was really into that, you know, from the get-go and evangelism. And I was a practitioner. I was that person I would get the groups together, like, come on, let's go. Let's go heal people. Let's pray people. You know, if we're going to do this, let's do it right. And, you know, if Jesus can do all these crazy and credible miracles, like, why wouldn't we want to do that? So I was very involved. And I ended up coming back to the state

to the Washington D.C. area, where I did a find a church called the gate, which was very, very ultra-carsametic, very small. And I was this person who I was single. I'm an artist, so I had a plenty of free time. I was going everywhere to see everyone. You know, if there's a prophet or somebody, you know, I've seen them, I've gone to it. And, you know, I was now looking back, I realized, you know, it was like a path into mental illness, not that I was saying to begin with, you know, but, but you're really just going off on this, like, ecstatic worship,

these great feelings and this hope of, like, anything can happen. So I was doing that at one point, and I'm an artist, and I was doing prophetic art, I had prophetic art group, and we used to go to Randy Clark. They had up in Harrisburg, which is just a few hours from here.

We would go up to the apostles, voice of the apostles, with Bill Johnson, Heidi Baker, everybody, Randy Clark. And at that time, this is literally like 20 years ago, like the ultimate, like the best thing you could do is go to Brazil with a Randy Clark, you know, they had these huge healing crusades. So I did go on one of those, and other stuff involving Randy Clark. I read all of his books. I really liked him. And so I was in Brazil, you know, we were doing prayers for people in giant stadiums. You know, as I mentioned before, we started recording. I was really excited

to get you on to talk about many things. Again, some things we can't talk about, but the Randy Clark episodes, I also have books by Randy Clark back in this room back here, and I've studied some of the deliverance things that he's teaching. And it's kind of funny because for people who aren't aware of the history building up to Randy Clark and many others who are doing the same things, you look at it and you think this is something new, this is fresh, it's the spirit of God moving down.

But when you realize that this thing has been going on for decades, long before Randy Clark, probably before he was even born, there were men and women claiming to do the same kind of tricks.

And each one claiming that there would be this big revival or something to the effect that this thing's gonna happen before Jesus Christ comes, which is imminent. And then we're going to be the ones who are, because we're so filled with the Spirit, we're the ones who's bringing in whatever it is.

In some cases it's rapture, in some cases it's revival. When you realize that's been going on and on and on, it's almost like this broken record that continues forever. And I was just thumbing through the book one day.

I've mentioned this before, but he's got this whole section on how to cure the demon of hiccups. And I've had hiccups a few times, and I can tell you, that's not a demon, I can tell you exactly what I eat that caused it.

And for me, the cure of the demon of hiccups is simply just avoid those foods and the combination of foods. But I'm really excited to talk to you more because the deliverance stuff just fascinates me.

It's like Harry Potter for adults. Yeah, it was full on Harry Potter. And we also, I worked at the healing room, study the John G. Lake method, and that whole deliverance thing. Well, you didn't do so much deliverance with the Randy Clark and the Bethel, we were just really into healing.

And the thing that really gets you off is that Bill Johnson says that we're here bringing heaven to earth, so we're bringing the Bible to life and that God wants everyone to be healed.

And that's where you really veer off course because God does not heal everyone. So how do you keep that charade up after a while? It falls apart. Yeah, it's when I'm talking deliverance and talking about the history.

See, this all kind of was birthed because of the healing revival. They were combining deliverance with healing in the healing lines during the post-war war to healing revival. And that eventually evolved into what interestingly you mentioned Christ for the nations.

Gordon Lindsay and William Brannum started teaching these deliverance seminars. And that eventually it was done under the business entity, the voice of healing, which was a business entity, Brannum created, Gordon Lindsay eventually took it over.

That evolved into Christ for the nations, but they were basically teaching that deliverance and healing were really one and the same. So it's interesting when you separate them, I've heard other people do this, they separate them because it has really evolved into its own thing and it is much like Harry Potter.

When you think of healing and you think of deliverance, what do you see as the differences between the two? Well, healing is more like positive force, the way we used to do it, we just had that energy, the Holy Spirit, healing, people getting well.

And then deliverance was more when people come to you with problems. I mean, yeah, we would throw in, you know, get rid of this demon in that demon. You know, you're just winging it and, you know, doing whatever it comes to your mind because, you know, it's the Holy Spirit, LOL.

So, I mean, the deliverance we had, we had a notebooks, we had, you know, all the things you had to go through, cutting the soul ties, there's that and the other. And let me just throw in here.

After I lost my faith, I became a shaman, a medicine woman, and I even went to shaman school because that's, I was just Harry pottered out. I mean, that was my life and I continued it without Jesus.

And it was exactly the same stuff. I was like, okay, and shamanism, we just use a rattle in healing and ministry. We do speaking in tongues, but it was almost exactly the same. Yeah, I've talked to other people.

I've actually talked to shamans in other countries on, on excursions. It's not like I went to see them, but I also, I was looking at this thinking, well, that's, that's not much different from whatever, what I left.

And when you go back to its original roots, it's kind of funny because they both really stem from the same type of thing. It isn't the, the same type of healing that Jesus does in the Bible, definitely.

But so that's interesting. You, you've mentioned, even in your email, you had left Christianity and later came back. Um, let's talk a little bit more about that. When you left Christianity, what, what other similarities did you see between the shamanism and the deliverance and the healing?

Well, you know, when you're a shaman, uh, the, the guy tells you, uh, oh, we were together in a past life, which reminds me of everything like the guy was saying. Like you use, you use that, I mean, any kind of predator takes that stuff and runs.

Um, you know, it's, you know, in the, in the Christianity, he's like, oh, you're really my true wife and my true soulmate, you know, and shamanism is, you know, some other stuff, but we used to do sweat lodges.

I was even a sweat lodge conductor like you just are getting into this ecstatic trance. It's the trance state. And I was really gotten good at being in a trance state after a while.

So much that when I left shamanism and all that, I mean, I was so far out in the universe. Like it's just making yourself go crazy, basically. Right. That's one of the things that not many people realize if you, if you're not in this movement and you're on the outside looking in, even during the, right, in the years building up to these deliverance seminars that Lindsey and Brannum had that eventually evolved into Christ for the nations, Brannum was teaching people how to get into a trance.

And he openly talked about it. He said, whenever I want to, and he would call it get in the spirit, he didn't use the word trance. But he starts talking about the chanting that he does and the beats, the repetitions that he does to get in his mental state of the prophetic he would call it.

But essentially what he's talking about is he is going through performing this ritual that leads to putting his mind in the state of a trance. And I've studied different spiritualism techniques and actually just simply mind control techniques.

And what he's describing is actually broadly used in just a simple form of mind control. It's a way to separate your mind from your state of being. And once you get out of that state, then it feels spiritual.

But you could use the word insanity. You can explain it many different ways with many different words. But essentially it is an experience where you have taken your mind out of the state of logically thinking.

Yeah, you're just associating from reality and if you're imaginative like myself, you could put anything in there you want. I want to just mention really quick last night. So I know it's coming here.

I don't listen to Randy Clark for 20 years. So in middle of the night I woke up, I listened to one of his YouTube's. And it was so, Randy Clark is so disturbing to me now because he's very subtle.

He doesn't come out like, oh, it's that guy with the blue eyes, you know, name a claim it. Like he's very, he's very subtle and I could, I've studied also cults mind control for years.

I've been a victim of mind control in other areas and by other kinds of people. But he will lead you in in a very calm, very sounding, very humble, like a very low key.

Oh, yeah, this person and then he'll just throw in some miracles that happen. He'll throw in some of this little by little mentioning this person or that person. And then like I could just track him going to starting to say, and you may start to feel, some people may start to feel shaking, you know, some people may start to feel this.

And I can see you is leading you into that. And I, I was, you know, led into that at one time with Randy Clark, I had like shaking for weeks. I don't even know what that was.

One of my friends wives did go insane after getting that, it's in India, I call a Shakti pot. Like after getting that anointing of that very heavy dose, like when you listen to Randy Clark, even last night after everything I know, I study your podcast and your books religiously, ever, even after everything I know was kind of intrigued.

It's like, oh, there's more, you know, there's more from God. I can have more. Why am I settling for this boring life, you know, a regular person? And it was intense and you could feel like, yeah, towards the end, a couple of people would start, they call it manifesting, you know, and you're making all these crazy noises and falling over and I could just, you could just see it.

him leading into that. Like very like NLP, like he's a very good mind control. And we did read William Brandham's books too, that he was selling now. I know I read them, but they always seem kind of weird. They're they're really cookie if you've never like I grew up on it. So it all sounds familiar and actually hearing the screaming voice that sounds like Hitler screaming at you, it's comforting to people who are raised on it because I was raised from birth on this, right?

It's just somebody on the outside, you're looking thinking, what in the world is this? What are they doing? You're automatic trans. Exactly. He's going through those, it's a very rhythmatic speaking. They he calms you down and you're talking about the the techniques of mind control. He tells these familiar stories that everybody during bat era were comfortable with. In today's world, they're actually they're unfamiliar. I'm not I wasn't raised in as a hillbilly in a log cabin, but there were many people who were. So he tells these comforting stories to just kind of get you to calm, relax your nerves. And then he starts speaking in this slow, rhythmic beat until the

climax of the sermon, he's just pounding that beat, pound, pound, pound, and your heart's racing at the same time. So when the heart matches the beat of the speech, that's whenever he can really hijack your mind. And sadly, that's what happened. What's really interesting is I go back and forth as to whether these guys are trained in this or whether they just learn by example, but you find what he's doing, not to the same extremes. I wouldn't say that, you know, Bill Johnson sounds nothing like Hitler, but many of the same techniques exist. And where does that come from? Is he doing

it because of, you know, are they passing this down? Are they learning it from each other? Or where does it come from? But many of the elements that cause people to shut off critical thinking exist in all of these types of ministries. And then whenever you bring in, like as I said, I was fascinated with the things you were telling me before we recorded. When you start thinking about shamanism and those beats and those trances, go to, if you've ever been on vacation and you go to one of these excursions where you can actually visit a shaman camp. And it all looks like show

because we're from America, you go down and you think, that's not real. But when you stop and think it actually is real, the people are doing these chants and they've done it for centuries, right? You have to believe that at some point one missionary went and experienced this and saw the power of it and came back and started using it. So when I started talking with you about, you know, Clark and shamanism, some of the other things, I really wanted to see how far that went because I'm starting to see patterns that emerged, you know, from every single culture that

I look at, these patterns are coming back in and it's being rebranded as Christian. Okay, so I was a Christian, I was a missionary, so I was very good at Spanish, and also I got into this prophetic dance, I had prophetic groups, and I used to feel like after I got that, I just only think of it as a Shakti Padle.

The anointing from Randy Clark, like all of a sudden, everything was super amplified, like I could see demons, and I just was in a really different state. I was enjoying it, I felt good, because I had had a lot of just very low self-esteem, a lot of issues, psychological social stuff like that.

So I loved having something to completely commit to, and that I could just show up, and be part of this group, like I didn't have to be accepted or anything. But the thing about the Randy Clark is I was listening to him last night, he's talking this name, that name, the other name, and it wasn't until I only mentioned Jesus once, it's like, you know, I was pretty good at it, so I started to feel like, oh, you know, I'm one of the magic people, and my art is magic.

And, you know, it was kind of like going up in the ranks. And then my nephew died suddenly, and me and my friend, we pray for him for like four or five days, he did not come back to life.

I had had a few bonifiable miracles, like bonifiable miracles in my days of healing and praying for people, which is why I kept doing it. And then a lot of people you never see them again, so you don't know, do they get healed or not, and some people definitely didn't.

But then I turned to 45, so all these years I'm praying for a husband and for a family, and if you go to church, you know, the pastor's always up in the front, me and my wife, me and my kids.

So as a single woman aging is extremely painful to live this, especially if you have been taught, you know, asking you shall receive nothing is impossible. I mean, I was like, even way older than that, and I was like still thinking, oh, I can, you know, anything can happen, you know, Sarah had a baby when she was 98.

Like I had a wasted most of my life helping and bringing people into these churches, working for free, paying on my money, and being a magical person about my own life, my career, my, you know, no marriage, no money.

And I just was like, either God is not real, or I don't understand God. And so I left Christianity, because also I kept trying to go back to the gate and my friends, and I would try to tell them, oh, our theology devolved to that everyone is saved.

And remember, that's, you know, once one brick comes out of your faith, the thing that you've uh, you know, the construction that that you have in your Christianity, like the whole thing just crumbled. And people didn't really want to talk to me. They're just like, Oh, if you're so inointed, you need an, you know, and God's going to bring you on man, just like you so annoyed it. And, you know, like, it just was such a BS. And I, so I couldn't go to church anymore, because everybody was so annoying, nobody would have a conversation with me about the things that I

observed. So when I left Christianity, I thought this is just like leaving a cult. So I kind of thought Christianity was a cult. And it wasn't until I found your videos 20 years later, I was like, Oh, wait, it was a cult. It was definitely I was in very cultish environments. And so I just left Christianity and, you know, went along my way. And after being really super crazy in the shamanism, the medicine woman, I was building medicine wheels and living very much Harry Potter life, then I became a Muslim, which kind of was better than all that, because at least you didn't really, I

like the people because they weren't drinking, they were family oriented, they weren't into mumbo jumbo. I wasn't like a true Muslim, I never really believed. Because after that Christianity, I was like, I will never be a total believer again in anything, because I got so far off the path.

And anyway, some years later, you know, I came back in a Christianity very slowly, you know, very, very slowly. And now I'm, I'm a Christian again. Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transition through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new Apostolic Reformation? You can learn this and more on William Brannum Historical Research's website, William-Branum.org.

On the book's page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Steven McGummery, John McKinnon and others, with links to the paper, audio and digital versions of each book. You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top. And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching. On behalf of William Brannum Historical Research, we want to thank you for

your support. So you've talked about your journey from Christianity or pseudo Christianity into shamanism and many of the similarities. And then talked about leaving. So interestingly, here's something that I can share with you publicly, but it's the private story of many other people. Others have shared with me the reasons why they left Christianity. And Often whenever they share their stories, some of them, you could not even tell that they've left because of the way that they talk, but they share many similar things and what you're describing openly, they described in private and probably would never say.

But whenever you're in this type of ministry, your focus is not really so much on the good. Yes, you have the things that do the trances, yes, there are healings, there are other things.

But if you really think about the essence of what's being taught, it isn't the good that they're focusing on. It's the demons underneath the hood that you're being delivered from, that's the focus. And so instead of a positive outlook, you're thinking, well, my gosh, there's demons everywhere.

And so you're just filled with this negative energy flowing throughout the entire movement. I looked back, when I first heard this, I kind of didn't believe it. And I started thinking back through all of the sermons that I heard growing up.

And it was true. The focus was more on the devil than it was Jesus Christ and how the devil might get you rather than Jesus Christ will protect you from it. And whenever you're in that mindset where there's demons everywhere, God's not going to protect you, you need this minister to protect you.

And then you find out that they won't give you the time of day, well, why would I stay in this religion? This whole thing doesn't make sense. There's no protection here. I'll go where there's protection.

So you see all of these people who actually leave Christianity because of this. Some of them have come back, but many of them, unfortunately, they have been branded in such a way that they picture all of Christianity to be this thing that's being taught.

And it is truly different. The gospel of this deliverance thing is different from the gospel of Jesus Christ, the two separate things. So I'm interested to hear your story because you're one who has opened up, and I thank you for that, somebody who's opened up about leaving what you experienced, the similarities.

Now let's talk a bit about coming back because if you're willing to open up about this, the ones who have gone through that journey and left and then started to come back, it's actually really, really difficult for them to come back because of the way that they have been framed in their mind.

They're framed this version of Christianity that is Harry Potterism. That's not the gospel. So let's talk about coming back. So I mean, it's so funny because when I did first come back, I was so sad.

I was like, oh, I wasted my whole life being out in the world. And now looking back on, I'm glad I was because I really had to just clean that out. And you know what?

It doesn't take, it takes a really long time. So yeah, I just somehow, I mean, it's kind of why I believe in God. Even more now because somehow I got back and I could just feel God kind of pulling on me.

And since I was a Muslim, I thought, you know, Jesus was idolatry, you know, Israel idolatry. three, you know, so I would just at first just listen to music that would talk about God, but not Jesus, you know.

So it took a really long time and I live in a city and I'm independent. So, you know, I can show up here, I show up there, I still don't have a church that I like around here.

And I started listening to bluegrass music because they're more like you die, you go to heaven. And that's kind of my Christianity. And that's all I care about, you know, you die, you go to heaven.

I saw a meme the other day, it said, I haven't exist, but this isn't it, you know, like, like if I hear somebody say, oh, today's a day of your breakthrough, nothing is impossible, you know, and it's like, you get old enough and you've been through enough stuff, you're like, you know, you know, it's people, it's marketing, you know, it's motivational speaking.

So here I am. And I feel happy and everything's going great, you know what I mean? And if I don't feel happy, it's fine because I don't need that breakthrough, like what you're talking about, the demons, you know, when people are sick, they say, oh, it's because maybe there's a part of your life where you still have sin, you know, and that's how the demon can get in.

And, you know, I don't think about any of that stuff. I am so like, at one point, even nothing to do with religion, I'm like, I'm just going to work, I'm going to make money, I'm going to clean my house, I'm going to do everything that a normal person does, and I study normal people and see what they do.

You know, it's funny, you say that because I have, I've seen both sides of it, somebody who's experienced unchurching and going through that process and then coming back, they get it. But many people who are trying to corral the sheep and prevent people from taking that first step out of their journey, the deconstruction phase, they see the whole thing as evil, it's Satan.

Basically, it's like the same type of deliverance thing in a different way and coming from people who were never experiencing this deliverance type ministry. But when you deconstruct, you're basically deconstructing a false god and you have to basically wipe the entire slate clean, start over with nothing, and then rebuild.

For me, and it looks different from every person that I've talked to, but for me, the way it worked is this. I was reading the Bible and I came to the passage in the New Testament where Jesus said, the entire law on the prophets is summed up in this thing, love God above all else, love your neighbor as yourself.

I can't remember the exact book verse that that came from, but anyway, I was thinking through that and logically speaking, what he's describing is when you talk about the law on the prophets, he's basically saying the entire Old Testament.

So if you read the Old Testament, it's summed up in this, love God, love your neighbor. And he's telling this to people who are being just heavily oppressed by the Pharisees and the had lawyers back then, which were people that would...

Read through the different statutes of the law and find how are you breaking this? We need to correct this much like the legalistic systems that exist today And I was thinking about that and I thought well that makes a heck of a lot more sense than what I was brought up with Jesus is saying the exact opposite of what I was brought up with Yeah, and that's that's exactly where I started. I didn't start with anything else This sounds crazy, but I did not even start with the basic elements of what is Christianity I just simply started with that and I started just adding things back one by one as I would

Examinate and think does this make sense does this does this match the pattern that Jesus said love God love your neighbors or does it not? And I would just continue building and Basically rebuilding my identity is what was happening because when you're in these cults They rob you of your identity and they want to put the cults identity inside of you So that you see their worldview their gospel their version of everything and I didn't want this and so as we were going through Different mainstream churches. I tried a few of them I would I could detect whenever they're going off into the doctrines of whatever is the mainstream church

I was in and then whenever they were sticking with just the basics that's in the Bible Well, I just ignored the doctrine part. I want to I want to know the basics and What's interesting is if you do that and you go to different churches and you weed out all of the the extra doctrines they all have the same basics They're just building adding things to it. It's like adding these weights on people some of it good some of it bad So for me that journey was rebuilding myself my identity What did that journey look like for you?

Yeah, so it was like three years ago. So also I was I was a crime victim and I got a horrible brain injury and I went through all kinds of stuff with that So sometimes although my things are a blur because of that, but You know Yeah, I don't I don't feel like I need to believe anything I don't have to force myself to believe anything That's what you do, you know in these cults that we that we get into you're like well that doesn't make sense And then somehow you make yourself make it make sense

So some doesn't make sense with me. It's like crossed off until further notice and Unfortunately, I mean You know and I've learned this from you about being a stage show was in another church for a year Which was not charismatic, but it was a stage show with lots of money lots of power and It was just rotten under the hood, you know and everybody's at this fake humility, you know like Oh, we're just these nice people from Texas and I worked at the Red Lobster. That was a church. I went to here, you know like

It is so fake and it's very hard because of the money, you know It's not like just Christians getting together hanging out, which is what I I'm only interested in It's just getting to know people.

I don't want to really, it's some guy standing up at the front. I really, I'm just kind of done, you know? I have a hard time with any of them, except there's a few that I like that they're just very humble.

Yet, maybe when they get more popular, they're gonna get totally corrupted, but there's a few churches, like little tiny churches in South Carolina that I like, little churches that take an hour. They ask like the prayers of the people, you know, keep a simple.

Lord's Prayer, I'm really into the Lord's Prayer, that's my only thing, because Jesus did say when you pray, pray like this. So I do the Lord's Prayer, but I don't say thy kingdom come, I don't think it means we're bringing heaven to earth.

I don't know what it means, but you know, just try to like give us a day or daily bread. That's my Christianity basically end. Yeah, and I want to pause right there, because what you just said, most people are gonna miss it.

This is actually important. When you have indoctrinated with loaded language that means entirely different things in the Bible says, even in things like the Lord's Prayer, when you're reading through that, the moment you hit that indoctrinated loaded language, the best way to overcome the programming is to just eliminate that from your being for a period of time.

There are passages in the Bible that I simply, as I'm reading, I will skip them entirely because it's so deeply rooted in my loaded language that's programmed in my head. It sets off all of these triggers and it's very painful.

I've actually got up and walked out of services because they read some wonderful passage that most people were just really enjoying, but for me, it was painful. And that's what these cults have done to our heads.

And I hate it dinner up, but that is actually a very important thing that you just said. Yeah, I mean, they stole my life, you know, and all of my friends I have from back then, I try to tell them and send them different information and they refuse to, you know, they can't, they're whole, I realize their whole self is constructed around that and they can't think that, you know, Mike Bickel is a bad guy, you know, or that we weren't meant to just sit around and be in love with Jesus all day long or whatever.

Yeah, I realize my whole life, I mean, I was mad. I mean, I'm still in mad. That's why I'm willing to talk about anything and come on here because it's just wrong. And, you know, if you don't get into one kind of cult, you get into another, you know, it's, it's just rough out there and Christianity and another, you know, there's so many other cults too.

So. So you left Christianity, you went into shamanism, then you came back. Let's talk a little bit about the differences of what you believed about Christianity back then and what you believe about it now.

How different. Is it for you? Well, you know, it's completely different because it's just very simple, you know? It's just very simple and you know, I never really understood the death on the cross.

Like I always thought it was pretty weird so I just avoided that. But so do all these churches, you know? So you're like, because it is weird. I mean, it is pretty weird why would God come up with that?

You know, but now I do believe in it. You know, as much as I believe in anything. And you know, it's just more basic like Jesus died. And now I go to different churches.

I kind of end up at some kind of Baptist stuff. But it's like a word for giving, we're washed clean. I don't have to clean myself every day by speaking in tongues for an hour or whatever people are doing.

And also humility, that's the biggest thing. I'm not trying to go up in the ranks to be super anointed, to be impressive with my healing gifts, you know, or be impressed by others or, you know, look at these incredible people, you know?

Now and I was re-watching Heidi Baker the other day and it was just embarrassing. And these people don't even make sense once you get your brain back. I mean, they really clerked my sense.

That's what was scary, but most of them make no sense. And it's just, it's completely different. I do actually just believe that, you know? We're doing our best and we don't have to try so hard.

That's the worst part. These are workspace religion, you know? The more I pray, the more I heal people, the more I evangelize, the more I get rid of on my inner badness. It's, it's, that's like you say this a lot.

You are the God, you know? I'm the person who can control all this stuff. And now it's just like, well, God made me this way. I do my best in trust that, you know, I'm forgiven.

I'm clean. I don't have to worry about if I did some yoga. Am I gonna get a demon, you know? Of course I understand, you know, cults and religions. So I don't get into the weirdo yoga and I don't, you know, think that that's gonna solve all my problems, you know, my problems are not gonna get solved.

I mean, basically, I guess that's my takeaway. You know, we're here and we die. That's why I love places like, well, you know, you die a best case scenario. You go to heaven, you see your loved ones.

I mean, you know, and then just try to do whatever work that I'm here, you know, whatever's in front of me. So I'm really curious, as I've mentioned, it's really exciting me to talk to somebody who's willing to open up about leaving and going into something like shamanism and coming back.

What were the things that made you wake? up and realize that even that was incorrect. Have you studied anything that helped you in your journey or were there things that you studied after having been involved with shamanism?

What did you do to come out of it? I think it's just that I was broke and unmarried and my career wasn't doing anywhere. Like I gave everything a 1,000% effort and I wasn't that manifesting.

And oh, I did earth healing with medicine wheels. I used to be the woman. I as a woman of two medicine men in a row. I learned a lot. I mean, it was very interesting, frankly.

A lot of people who leave and go through the journey that you've gone on, they get deep into studying about cults and just looking at the similarities between what they had come out of and the other cults.

It really helps them in their journey. Did you do anything like this? I studied cults forever. Like as soon as YouTube came out and I did the homage to Scientology, all of the cults and I also studied a lot of abusive behavior, because also my last relationship was so long ago, but it was this guy who did dark NLP, which is an abusive relationship and a cult is they all do the same stuff.

They have to fool you into thinking you're little and they're big, and they know, and you don't know, and you better do what they say or else. But I wasn't ever in a physical abuse, but I have studied it so much that I can just literally just spot it like a mile away, which is hard, because it's going on all the everywhere.

And the most important thing to me is if I'm somewhere where I can't ask a question and be respected, I mean, that's like the number one sign. If people just brush over you and just give you the same pattern answer every time, it's like, what's that?

What would you say? And I'm not going to name specific ministries, because each one is independent. But looking at deliverance ministry as a whole, and after having studied cults, what would you say are the similarities or the markers, the signs of a cult that you see in the deliverance ministries?

I mean, the whole thing is cultish, because you're just being led away from logic, little by little by little into this imaginary world, where unfortunately you can get just enough affirmation or just enough miracles or just enough positive information to convince yourself that it's real.

So I mean, anybody, yeah. And it's very young Christian. And anything that's a call is going to be like, there's something wrong with you. And you need me to help you. And that's what these ministries are all doing. And even if I'm helping other people, I'm still needing help.

And, uh, you know, you feel like you're pretty good once you got rid of a lot of your soul ties this down the other, but you're really not. You're still waiting for your breakthrough.

If I hear anyone ever say that word again, I think I'm going to get up and yeah, it's crazy. There are so many people that are caught up in it and so many people that don't realize that it is a different religion. It's a, it is much like shamanism to me after having studied both.

What would you, what advice would you give people who were trapped in that mindset that believe that this deliverance ministry is, is of God? What advice would you give them? Personally, I would study all of your work. That's how I really came out of it because even when I came back to Christianity, I started listening to Derek Prince and my father was dying and I was casting out demons. Luckily, he did become a Christian before he died. But, you know, you have to study, like I'll study hour after hour after hour because, you know, this is conditioning. We've

been conditioned and, and even now like this music today, I just was like, I'm going to listen to Bethel music and see, you know, what it is. And it's, of course, it's all songs that I know.

It's great music. You know, so I'm like, you know, you have to in this day and age just be self-aware and intelligent enough to investigate everything, everybody and don't be fooled, you know, because everybody wants your money and your time and your attention. And you need to give it to yourself, you know, and build your own life up in a normal way because, you know, God did create us to be here in this normal, you know, brick and stones world.

If you could go back in time, back whenever you were, before you had left and went into shamanism, right at the point, whenever you were getting so disenchanted with, with that version of Christianity, if you go back and give yourself some advice for the journey ahead, what advice would you give yourself? Yeah, I mean, I think just the whole study, I mean, I was so upset at that time.

And, you know, I was so had it. No, I can't. There's nobody you could talk to. I mean, even now, just to go even normal churches, people will just kind of spew their, their doctrine at you, you know, like it's, I don't know, I couldn't give myself advice. I mean, I wish I had just learned a math and learned how to manage money, basically, you know, because a lot of my whole life was trying to be successful and to live this great, you know, whatever kind of life I thought I wanted, and I thought that was a way of getting it. So even just getting healed, you know, even from

depression or whatever it is I used to have, I mean, that music. is a very healing in the beginning and it's very positive. So I still listen to it like 24-7. Christian, you know, I always need that positive but then you realize, you know, just like I'm like a stoic now, you know, like just, you know, cleanse your fists and go through the hard times and just be a person, you know.

Just because I do feel like I wasted most of my life in this crap, frankly, you know, it's painful. You know, and the only reason I could get out is that I have the ability to live in pain, you know, because a lot of my friends and people I know they can't even begin to fathom that their whole life, you know, decades and decades has been a lie.

I mean, that is, that's not easy, you know. It's hard, it definitely is. Well, thank you so much for sharing your story. I know that there will be a lot of people really interested to hear it.

And like I said, before we started recording, I was really excited to hear more. So thank you so much for doing this. It's great to be able to share because, you know, been through a lot.

Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, or just share your story, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at www.William-brandom.org. For more about the dark side of the new apostolic reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

You can find us at www.William-brandom.org. You can find us at www.William-brandom.org.

You can find us at www.William-brandom.org.