The Paul Cain Tapes: How Spiritual Blackmail Shaped the Charismatic Movement

Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Brant, I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Brant, historical research at www.William-brant.org and with me I have my co-host, researcher, minister, and friend Charles Paisley, the founder of christiangospelchurch.org and the author of Come Out of Her My People.

Charles, it's good to have you back and to talk about this unbelievable bombshell. You know, I've actually known about maybe not this specific recording, but I have known about these recordings for a very long time and in fact I've been sitting on them.

Everybody watched my research into Chuck Smith and John Wimber and Paul Cain. It kind of was explosive for a moment and then it stopped. Well the reason for this, I don't even know if I've shared this with you.

I was promised a copy of all of the tapes and transcripts and apparently the person who, I won't give the source, but apparently the person who had them got cold feet. But what we're talking about would be devastating to the charismatic movement and the New Apostolic Reformation in general.

And I can understand why somebody would get cold feet because like it or not there is some danger in all of this because Paul Cain recorded everything, everything, everything. I'm talking he has dirt on people from, I don't know, you know, from Bethel Church all the way down to your mom and pop little churches that Pentecostal orgs where somebody thinks that he's a big name.

Paul Cain recorded everything. I came in to sad realization of this whenever I started having conversations with Paul Cain. At the time I was naive, I did not know that he was probably doing the same thing for me.

He was wanting me to open up and say something that he could use, which I didn't thankfully. But he called me and I'm certain that whoever has these recordings who won't give them up, he probably has a recording of me or maybe three or four.

But anyway, needless to say, we have quite an episode. This specific recording, the transcript was given to us by Mike Winger. And I read through it, I knew a lot of this information, I didn't know all of it.

I knew quite a bit of it. But before we get into it, let's put a proper perspective on this. This transcript comes out during the... early years, whenever Paul Cain is working with John Wember, there is a slight disagreement with Chuck Smith, which we'll get into this, but this is the early years before the separation.

So what we're going to talk about today, Wember knew, Chuck Smith knew, Paul Cain was the, Paul Cain was the fixer, he had dirt on everyone. We'll mention some other names in this as we go, but there are significant names that knew this, and think about the timeline.

I think you and I talked about the John Wembers work with the Shepherding Guys, which I'll throw a image on the screen, but he's calling for unity among everybody. Well, if you put this timeline together and understand that John Wember knew what was happening and all of these other figures knew, but yet they were controlling and manipulating each other.

What you have, Charles, this is more of a means to control the narrative, and the rank and fall members have no idea what's going on. But before we get into that, I'll let you talk and we'll get into some history that builds up to this event because it is critical.

Yeah, John, I'm glad to be back with you. It's good to see you again and hello to all the listeners out there. Yeah, when you shared the copy of this, I said, yeah, let's hop on.

Let's record something about this because this is something that there's pieces in here that actually go all the way back to the 1950s to some stuff I'm very interested in and I, myself, have been looking at in the 1950s. I know our new apostolic listed reference listeners and all that stuff. They're probably more interested in this as it relates to what happened in the 80s and 90s. But for me, the interesting part here is the stuff pointing back to the 50s.

And, you know, John, I am so reluctant. Every time we record on these guys, I say this, I am so reluctant to talk about Calvary Chapel and Vineyard and the Derek Prince guys. And all that I'm just incredibly reluctant because I personally don't have a dog in that fight.

I see a lot of stuff there that scares me. I want absolutely nothing to do with it as far as, you know, go in there or anything. But I mean, we do know a whole lot about these people because they share a lot of the same origins of us in the message. If you go back in time to the late 1940s and 1950s, a lot of these guys were all in the four square denomination. Chuck Smith was in four square. Paul Cain was operating around four square. William Branum had went into four square.

And it was a really awful, awful, awful time for four square, John, because during those same years, who else was in four square? The National Leader of the Ku Klux Klan, the leaders of the neo-Nazis, the leaders of the Christian identity movement, the the Aryan nation founders were all in there too, right? The Kansas Hitler was preaching in their church at the Angeles Temple. I mean, it was a really bad time to be in four square, okay? And not only did they have those really radical people of Crazy mindsets.

They also had all of the signs, wonders, miracles, ladder rain, five-fold ministry craziness happening at the same time. Because the four-square denomination, their district and superintendent here at Colt, was the man who was founding and starting the Sharon orphanage where the ladder rain started.

And they were four-square was financially sponsoring what launched into the ladder rain movement, right? So four-square is at the epicenter of everything that you and I are interested in as it relates to William Brannum history.

And William Brannum was right there at the center of it. William Brannum came and was introduced and visited four-square immediately in the immediate aftermath of Amy Simple McPherson's death. So there was a void when William Brannum appeared there.

And William Brannum made very good friends with her son, Ralph McPherson. And that's how all of this stuff is a melting pot. Four-square is a melting pot. And then somewhere in the mid to late 1950s, there are something very interesting that happened there that I know, I personally, John, that's what interests me about this, is there's clues about what happened here in the late 1950s where four-square had a breakdown.

And we see a lot of people exit or pushed out of four-square in those years. William Brannum had a follow-up with Ralph McPherson, right? John Robert Stevens has his falling out and goes on the branch to make his cult.

David Moses Berg, the founder of the children of God Cult, was in four-square back then, John. He had his falling out at that point in time. You know, that's the point when Lee Roy Cobb, who was the president of the four-square evangelist, has his push out, you know, and his church ends up getting sold to OL Jaggers and all that.

I mean, all that stuff happens right in this window. And in that same window of time, Chuck Smith leaves four-square and somehow ends up at Calvary Chapel in Costa Mesa, okay? And from all the pieces that we know, Chuck Smith, people have emailed me, John.

People have asked me stuff to dig into this and always tell them, no, I don't want to do that because I generally have a favorable opinion about Chuck Smith ended up. So I'm just, there's pieces that I'm just reluctant to even talk about, but something happened where Chuck Smith was involved in the things that went down and that really nasty breakup that happened.

And this is my speculation, I don't know for sure, but I think that started Chuck Smith's waking up process that there was something wrong. And it was a gradual wake up, John. He didn't wake up all at once, but that was his start of his wake up process that something was wrong with this movement and this ideology.

And as I see it, he slowly woke up and he was fully woke up by the time you get into the 1980s. And it was a gradual wake up. And I think the last thing I'll say is, I don't know, John.

We don't know precisely how some of those things happened except this document, and I'll just say for the 1950s, this... does indicate that Paul Cain played a role in Chuck's misprojectory out of four square.

So yeah, let's dive into this, John, because again, I think you're right. This, ultimately, this is a textbook case of how the leadership controls the narrative, controls the messages, covers up things they don't want covered up, protects their own, and uses basically black and dirt mail to get what they want out of everybody.

They do. You have mentioned so many things. I was thinking before we started recording, just this one document is, there's enough in this information, this transcript that Paul Cain is in, Chuck's myth, et cetera.

There's enough information here we could actually do an entire podcast series. If everybody knew the backgrounds to those statements, it would be a whole series. Granted, you and I did a revival history series that covered almost everything that you just said, and those who are interested can go back and watch those.

There are some key details that I think I want to re-emphasize that you said, and point back to some weirdness. I used to do, as we were doing the revival history series, as I would find a random fact that it was just a puzzle piece.

There wasn't really much more that you could do with a puzzle piece. I would record these little two-minute segments. They were very short, but they would just present the viewers with a document. They could look at the document, et cetera.

There are some random facts that, really, like you said, when you look at Angela's Temple and what was going on, it's really weird, but also in the grander scheme of the timeline. So let me just talk about a few of those trails, and then we'll get into this document.

So William Brannum, you and I had this conversation briefly this weekend, but there were significant changes in his stage persona and the gimmicks. In the early years, right after he had worked with the second-in-command of the Ku Klux Clan, he goes on this revival series, which largely fails.

This was in the 1930s, I think. He mentions it in his book, I was not disobedient. He reinvents himself, and he comes up with a gimmick. This gimmick is that his hand turns colors, and he can discern diseases with the colors.

To anybody who's wondering how this worked, it was a magicians trick, really, it's all it was, but you could place a rock or a stone under your underarm and squeeze it, and you cut off that main blood flow to your wrist and your hand would actually change color.

So he would do this, and if the hand turned, I think it was purple, which is blood red, obviously. If it turned purple, your disease was too much in God couldn't heal you, which it's like backwards from what the healing revival became, but that's what he did.

Later on, he would do this trick where his hand would vibrate, which anybody can do it. You just flex your muscles and your hand vibrates, and he started doing this, all Robert started doing this, there are others that started doing the hand vibration gimmick.

But the reinventing themselves time and time again, you mentioned this, and I think years ago I mentioned it in one of the little shorts that I did. But when voice of healing came out and they collected all the names and addresses, they had a spot where you could collect send your prayer requests for a friend, give us their name and address and we'll give them a free copy.

So this was a database of names and addresses for men and women who were pretending to discern the names and addresses and I find it so interesting that the new apostolic reformation leaders are doing the same gimmick.

But William Brannum, after voice of healings launched, after they get the database of names and addresses, what does he do? Come up to the stage, I will tell you your name and your address.

So if you follow William Brannum's trail of history, there's some showmanship that comes in here. Like you said, Amy Simplamert-Firson, when she dies, there's this void where they're looking for the next showman, right?

And Amy Simplamert-Firson was involved in funding what would later become the share in Orphanage where the latter reign revival breaks out. So they're looking for the next leader, who does it become? We obviously know that history.

And like you said, there's some very, very evil characters that are mixed in with this to develop into groups like you said, the neo-Nazis. But there's also some weird histories when you look at some of the characters.

You can clearly tell from his own words and from the historical documents we have identified his family was connected to the mob, directly connected to the supplier of whiskey for Alcapone. Kenneth Hagen. His brother openly admits that he was running with not only Alcapone, but he mentions some different mafia figures that you're just like scratching your head, wait a minute.

Why? Oh, this is weird. Right? Alcapone, in the years that are being mentioned in this document, one of the random facts that I put out on his payroll is a bank robber, and Alcapone goes to defend the bank robber.

There are some weird things. I'll throw that on the screen if you're watching the YouTube video, but there's some weird random facts. And for me, they're just random facts or just puzzle pieces. They really mean nothing in of themselves, but what they really describe is the character of the people who were involved.

When you understand that the character of the people involved is in question, now picture a consortium of people with nefarious characters who all know each other's dark secrets, who are all putting on stage acts, and they all have dirt on each other.

If you treat me wrong, I'm going to expose you for what you are. Well, they can all expose each other. That's the funny part of all of this. They can all expose each other.

So as you read through this document, which we'll get into, you start to read between the lines of that, and I've held back purposefully until we got our hands on one of these either transcripts or recordings because you can say it all you want, but until you see it, you really don't understand how deep this goes.

You know back then, too, John, four-square was much smaller than it is today. Four-square has thousands of churches today. Back then, four-square only had about 400 churches, and yeah, all the top leaders knew each other.

It was a much tighter knit community because there's a lot less people than there are today. And so, yeah, so this transcript comes, John, let's talk about this just a little bit. And this transcript is a meeting between, and the audio goes with it, it's a meeting between Paul Cain and Jack Deer with Chuck Smith and Chuck Smith's son.

So let's maybe just assume nobody knows who these people are, just a quick, who are these people? Paul Cain, a preacher who spent a lot of time around the message, who ended up leading the going in with the Kansas City prophets and the NAR.

Chuck Smith, he is the founder of the Calvary Chapel Denomination of Faith, which started out in Los Angeles in the late 1960s. And now, as I've said before, too, John, I think that, again, maybe this is worth recapping.

There's a lot of people that have the concept that all of these are just kind of different movements and different people, but it's not really like that. And I think that this document also kind of helps ties it together.

It's the same people all the way through moving through these different movements. The same people who were at the epicenter or working with the healing revival in four square in the 50s, some of them are the same people that then go in and are working with the Jesus people movement in the late 60s and 70s.

And then it's some of those exact same people who then break away and go with vineyard in the later 70s and 80s. And then it's some of those exact same people who then break away and be the new apostolic reformation as you come into the 90s.

It's the same people transitioning through these different movements all the way through. And when you see this trail, I think it helps make sense of all this because they had their falling outs all along the way.

They had their falling out with four square and exited in the late 50s and 60s. They had their falling out with Calvary Chapel and left out of there in the 70s. They had their falling out with John Wimber and left vineyard in the early 90s.

And then they turn into the NAR. But this ideology embedded and traveled through all of those movements. It's the same birds, just different nests, the same birds and different nests, okay? And so let me read, let me just read how this happens, this conversation between Chuck Smith and Paul Cain in October 9th, 1989.

At this point in time, these people have already broken away from Calvary Chapel and they're in the vineyard movement right now, okay? The bad guys are vineyard here in 1989. And this conversation is between bad guys and vineyard, okay?

Who are part of what's going to be the NAR confronting Chuck Smith, the guy they schismed from some years earlier, okay? I'm just going to read the opening paragraph. Palkane says, well Chuck, like I said earlier, your pastors gave me the tape that you made. I guess in the Midwest some pastors conference. And during the course of that meeting, you called me a homosexual.

You accused me of a high fly-in lifestyle that I ripped off your four-square church in Huntington Beach in 1959, 1955, when I was with you. You said I did that after I asked you to let me come preach for you. And then you said I was a fraud and prophetic gifting. Do you care to respond?

You know, the language that Palkane uses, it's a little bit funny. And if you know how it works, if you're in the upper tier of all of this mess, I don't care if it's Brandon, I don't care if it's IHOPKC, I don't care if it's Bethel. If you know that the leaders pressure each other, it gets a little weird when you think about it. I can remember my grandfather telling a story how I'm not going to mention which one, but one of the Brandon brothers came to him and was trying to pressure my grandfather. And grandpa said something, and I wish I could remember his exact words,

but it was something to the effect, we can try that if you want, but it would sure be a shame if they found out about, and I'm not going to mention what they were going to find out about. But that's how it works. You bounce pressure off of each other. And it's so weird when you hear it, because when you hear somebody doing this, you know that from a spiritual standpoint, they're not a very Christians, they're not a very Christian person. I'll just say it like that. Christians don't blackmail.

But they're using language as though they think they are. And if you read through Palkane says something to the effect, I'm sorry for that little bit of spiritual blackmail. That's extraordinary, man. He acknowledges that he is manipulating Chuck Smith. He justifies it as divinely sanctioned. And then out of all of this, he receives this affirmation from Jack Deere.

Jack Deere is present through all of this. And if you know the logistics of how I hop KC develop and understand Jack Deere's critical involvement in this, and understand that these guys all knew. And you know, I'm just, I'm a little bit floored that when this transcript came out and I started reading through, I'm a little bit floored to think that they're using language as though they're men of God. Blackmailing each other is though their mob bosses. And then manipulating the crowds as though the crowds think they're the spiritual, significant people. These are not good

people. But here's the point I'll end with. And I'll hand it back to you. This is one of those things that you've watched movies. I'm certain where you can see how organized crime works. And I'm not saying this is organized crime. That's another question for another story. But religious organized crime. I would go.

so far as to say it's like this. Once you get in the game, it is very hard to get out. And like you said with Chuck Smith, I'm gonna give him the benefit of the doubt.

Maybe he had a change of heart, maybe he really did one out, maybe he wanted to clean his life up. But it shows if you read through this transcript, and I will put, eventually this will be on the Chuck Smith and the John Wimber and the Paul Kane page on my website, and you can read it yourself.

But when you read this, you understand that whether he has a change of heart or whether he's lying through his teeth, he can't get out. Because once you're in the game, you can't get out of the game.

When you go back to the schism that happened, and this schism happened in the mid-70s, where Calvary Chapel pushed out all the people who would eventually be vineyard. And when that event happened, that is when Chuck Smith really seems to have firmly changed his mind on this ideology.

There's some indications out there. Some people say Chuck Smith changed his mind on this ideology when he left four square. I don't know about that myself. I'm not sure that's true myself. I know people say that I'm not sure.

I think he started maybe to change his mind on this ideology, but I don't think he fully changed his mind on this ideology until the, certainly the early 70s. After Calvary Chapel had already been started after the Lonnie Frisbee stuff happened.

Because again, when you look at Chuck Smith, he went from working with a homosexual charismatic evangelist named Paul Cain, working with a homosexual charismatic evangelist named Lonnie Frisbee, right? You go down that path.

I mean, he's still working with that crowd of people and that sort of stuff, even after Calvary Chapel. But as you come into the early 70s, Chuck Smith seems to change his mind on all of this stuff.

And when he does, he very publicly, John, and I should say publicly in the sense that he did this in front of a lot of people, he publicly outed problems with a lot of the key leaders, just like we read here about him talking about the problems with Paul Cain.

He also outed problems about Derek Prince, about Bob Mumford, about, he publicly said a whole lot of things. Now, I've never been able to, again, find copies of those recordings or transcripts. I would love to have them if they exist.

But there are plenty of witnesses who were in those events when Chuck Smith outed all the stuff he knew about those people that testified to it enough that I believe it's true. And that happened somewhere in the early to mid 1970s.

Again, Derek Prince, he outed a lot of problems with a lot of those people as that schism unfolded. And as those people are pushed away from Calvary Chapel and they go find their new home, they land in their new nest in the vineyard movement.

And I... have a feeling, John, that this is, this is, it's basically that that sets off Paul Cain, right? Paul Cain has got a copy of one of these tapes where Chuck Smith is doing his outing of these problematic evangelists that he has schismed from. And in my view, John, I, I have a positive view because I think Chuck Smith more or less made the right decision to try and get away from them like you said, but you can't get away from this stuff. You can't because the currency of leadership in the message, and I firmly believe based on everything

I've seen, the currency of leadership in these other movements, because we all come from the same culture, the same root. The currency of leadership is mutual blackmail on the leaders. Every leader has dirt on the other, other leaders.

You don't get into leadership without some skin in the game, okay? There's got to be skin in the game to get into leadership. They've got to have something on you so they think they can control you. And then the way that you get leverage and powers to get dirt and blackmail on them. Everybody wants to know where all the bodies are buried, John, so that they can control each other. And if if I have an atomic bomb and you have an atomic bomb, well, we're not going to shoot them at each other. Are we because it's mutually

assured destruction? And that, John, in the message where we come from is what holds leadership together. It's what holds the whole thing together. The leaders can't go nuclear on each other because they all know they've all got the nuclear bombs. And I firmly believe it's the same sort of stuff that's happening with this movement. Everywhere else it's went. When it went through Calvary Chapel, when it went through Vineyard, when it went through the New Apostolic Reformation today, it's mutual blackmail that holds the whole thing together. They all have the dirt on each other. And the sad truth is you

almost can't get into leadership without having some skin in the game. And what we see unfolding in this transcript is evidence of that happening between Paul Kane and Chuck Smith. I hate to say it.

Well, and it goes much deeper than that. You know this because you were in the upper tiers of your sect. I know this because of not only being in the upper tiers, but talking with many other people who were in the upper tiers.

If you have the mind of a humble Christian who doesn't think any nefarious idea, this is going to shock you when we talk about this letter. But this kind of letter, this is nothing unusual in this movement. That's the weird part. But if you have the mind of a Christian who's not thinking like this, you don't think about all the other implications that go with it. I have talked directly with people who were the people who managed the files that were kept not only on the other leaders, but also of their congregations. They had some of the people

had thick files. They knew every single thing they had done, everything that they had bought. I mean, right down to there were one of the documents to one of the files described to me was a folder that was like this thick on one of the people. Obviously, this was a person who is of status or they wouldn't have that much detail, but this is a person who likely had a lot of money, likely who did a lot of bad things, and likely was being controlled by the leadership.

Hey, we would like some more ties. It'd be a shame if somebody found out that you did X, Y, and Z, but that's how this works. It is in Paul Cain's own words, this is spiritual blackmail, and that's how the group grows.

Well, what this ends up with, if you can control a person because they're unwilling to be open and confess their sins and be a respectable person, if you can control that person, you can control the narrative that they give you that supports your narrative.

So if you're trying to do a spiritual agenda, well, you get a bunch of supporting people, and think how the revival has worked, man. You had people being healed while the newspapers were finding there were a lot of people who were claiming that they got received their healing, and they went home and died.

But then you had that one person who miraculously something happened in their lives. We have to wonder if they're manipulating people, how far does that go? Does that go all the way down to the person who's claiming to be healed, who will for the rest of their life profess that they did have something?

And then combine that with the fact, we have seen testimonies where the person got healed, and the doctors didn't even know they had the disease that they were healed from. So when you combine all of this weirdness, for me, it doesn't really give you any solid answers because you can never prove what is in somebody's innermost secrets of their heart, but it does prove one thing.

The leadership were controlling and manipulating the people to control the narrative. And I think that's the most important part of this entire transcript. The same thing is true where I come from, John. The leaders record everything.

All of the private meetings, all of the counseling sessions, phone calls even, they record everything. And they're trying what they're doing is a lot of times that we would know the recording was happening, and they would say they're recording it for evidence to protect themselves.

But the truth is, it was generating the blackmail. They were trying to get people to confess to things on tape. They were trying to get people to admit to failings or whatever. And sure, in that context, they would be forgiven, but then that tape is filed away, and it's there to be brought out whenever that person gets out of line to bring them back in line.

Okay? The dirt would go in. Yes, our church was the same we had. John, Raymond Jackson had dirt files on every single leader in the message. They all, they had all the dirt. And guess what?

I'm Raymond Jackson's successor, ladies and gentlemen. I have all the dirt files today myself. I am in possession of them. Okay? He had a dirt file on everybody, John, and he even bragged about it at the time.

He bragged about it to Billy Paul, right? We have examples like Raymond Jackson's letter to Billy Paul about... his dirt file, which is not unlike this letter that we're reading here, and there's an implicit thread in that that if you come against me with your dirt, I'm going to come against you with my dirt and we'll see who has the bigger nuclear bomb, right? And that is exactly how this works. And what happens is you read through this letter, this transcript, John, it's like probably 2000 words. We're not going to be able to probably not going to read

the whole thing, but it'd be up on the website for people to read. But as it goes on, basically, Paul Cain confronts Chuck Smith for outing his dark secrets, okay? And here's the thing, Chuck Smith was telling the truth about Paul Cain, wasn't he? It was the truth.

Paul Cain was everything and worse. I would actually say far worse than what Chuck Smith had said about him. I don't think Chuck Paul Cain didn't, was way worse even, honestly, than what Chuck Smith had said. And now Paul Cain comes in to confront him. And in page six of this transcript, Paul Cain begins to allude to something that happened when they were back in four square together. You know, it's not spelled out exactly, but something happened where Chuck Smith came to Angela's Temple to visit Paul Cain while Paul Cain was headlining at Angela's Temple,

which is the headquarters of the four square denomination. And there's an indication there that there was some sort of a counseling session, a sharing of information that happened where Chuck Smith sought the advice recommendation, counsel of Paul Cain. And no doubt in that event Chuck Smith shared some information with Paul Cain that was probably embarrassing, right, if it would ever become public. And who would ever expect that, right? You go to a counsel, you go to a minister, you go to a counselor or something, you expect to get honest advice and counsel so you can then go

make a right decision. You don't expect that they're going to turn around 20 years later and say, oh, you better do what I say or I'm going to tell the whole world what you told me when you sought some private advice, that that's dirty. I mean, that's evil. I mean, Paul Cain went to hell for this stuff. I hate to say it, John. I mean, Paul Cain is not, people might not like the that I say that, but Paul Cain is not a good man. I mean, good people don't behave this way.

Evil people behave this way. The devil, this is like devil stuff. This is the stuff the devil does, right? And he's clearly hinting to Chuck Smith. I know a secret. And here we are in the last days and God's going to start revealing some things that's going to embarrass some people.

I mean, Chuck Smith's, I mean, Paul Cain really eludes, says that really plainly in here. And then he goes, yep, and this is spiritual blackmail. And he is confronting Chuck Smith. And I'll just Listeners, just think about this.

Chuck Smith, John, one of the most prominent ministers of the last 50 years. Chuck Smith, the leader of a very prominent denomination of faith, if they would confront him and blackmail him like this, who wouldn't they do that to?

Who wouldn't they do that to? And I think that this is just an excellent demonstration of how this works against even huge name targets in order to control the narrative. Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transition through the latter reign charismatic and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation?

You can learn this and more on William Brannum Historical Research's website, William-Brannum.org. On the book's page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.

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Knowing how it works and knowing how people talk who are in leadership in these movements, it's not like your normal Christian church. If you go to a normal Christian church, even if there's a conflict that arises in the pastor has to get a little bit stern with you, they don't treat you this way.

But Paul Kane, he's read through it and he's saying things like, I'm not threatening you. And I'm laughing because you are absolutely threatening him, man. Yes, lighting. Yes, lighting. He is implying that there's divine exposure, God's involved, that reputations, there's consequences that's going to affect your reputation.

And all while claiming the spiritual authority that God is defending him personally, for things that is just unbelievable, all to silence Chuck Smith. And the problem just grows and grows if you read through it.

You can see that as the people are in this type of movement and as they present their problems, their confessions to the pastors, well, this is how you're treated. And then the responses are belittling.

He's using phrases like, young man, and I wish you were my son, my boy. He's using phrases that just kind of put Chuck Smith back in his place, right? Lowering the resistance, but what he's doing, if you really understand it, he's establishing a hierarchy.

And he's fighting to be at the top of that hierarchy while he's trying to... to push Chuck Smith down in the hierarchy. And the interesting part of all of this, kind of like you alluded to, Chuck Smith is actually the one who should be higher in spiritual authority, because he's pushing back that there's a wolf among the sheep, warning the sheep, it's going out on recordings, he's warning the sheep. Well, now the wolf comes in and confronts the guy who recorded this and he's kind of stepping back. And again, this is in the early years,

this is before it developed into the explosion that would become the new apostolic reformation. There were men who knew that this was going on. And one of the things that was a little bit shocking, you read through, and John Wimber not only knew all of the things that Chuck Smith was going to go verbal with, and then continued to work with the guy who was guilty of him for quite a few years after this, because this was in the early years. So does it mean John Wimber is worse than the rest of them? No. They're all the same way. They all have the dirt. They all know the dirt.

The interesting part of this is Paul Kane was like the fixer among all of them, because he had the master copy of dirt. He would go to, I've been told that, well, I better not give names. I've been told that high ranking individuals in the new apostolic reformation would bow down to Paul Kane because of Paul Kane's recordings. And I know this because I was almost given those recordings. So anyway, if you understand how this works, this is not a way where a public, where a confession of your sins to your minister is clearing your mind, clearing your conscience.

It's really going into the same database. Think back to, I mentioned William Brownham's database of names and addresses. Well, that's for the common people. But in the upper tiers, you have databases of dirt. I like what you said there, where you pointed out how this is happening right. I would put this, John, this happened right at the peak. This is the peak. This is peak Paul Kane in vineyard. This is peak Kansas City profits in vineyard when this is happening.

John Wimber at the same time is publicly saying that Paul Kane's the greatest profit in the world. He's the senior miracle man of the vineyard movement. These are top vineyard people that are confronting Chuck Smith here. Paul Kane was in vineyard when this was happening. This is part of that whole debacle. Let me read an example here of how Paul Kane is manipulatively threatening Chuck Smith here. This is from page six of the transcript. Paul Kane says to Chuck Smith, you're the only one that has ever come out with something like this and it's appalling. Well,

that's a lie. But he says, but I don't know whether I want to appeal to you and continue to be your friend that I thought You were? Make this right, so we can both go on.

I don't think the Lord is going to stand by and let this thing go down this way. I'm not going to do anything about it, but I think there are things in people's lives that the Lord would bring out at this point that could be the most embarrassing.

I don't think we can live them down, and I think you ought to make this right, make a real effort to make this right. I think we ought to go and check your files and see.

The transcript cuts off there, and Chuck Smith's reply is cut off there, but it's very apparent that Paul Kane has dirt on Chuck Smith, and he is directly threatening Chuck Smith with the release of his dirt if he don't retract the dirt that he knows on Paul Kane.

That is what is happening here. The other interesting part for me, the homosexual issue comes up. Paul Kane, for those who are not aware, Paul Kane openly admitted to being homosexual, and then suddenly retracted for some weird reason, but it was in this build-up when he was working with the Kansas City Prophets and John Wimber.

Wimber apparently took him under some pastoral authority or something like this. If you believe that narrative, which this letter kind of undermines that narrative a bit, if you understand what's going on. But anyway, they put the homosexual thing at the center of it.

But if you understand what this argument is all about, it's not really even about that issue because they seem to downplay the Christian consequences of this, and instead are focusing more on the reputation.

It's the reputation that is more concerning to all of them in the group. Chuck Smith knows that he can damage Paul Kane's reputation. He's not offended that people are learning of his secret sins.

He is offended that his reputation is being damaged, and he talks about the things that are about to come and how God is moving within him as a, I don't know, how he is presenting it as a celibate or something like this.

If you understand that narrative, what he's talking about is literally what would become International House of Prayer in Kansas City. He was working with people that were going to develop a movement. As they're developing what would become a movement, you can't have your reputation destroyed or the whole movement implodes.

You're correct, John. And at the end of the day, what do you think happened, ladies and gentlemen? Did Chuck Smith comply and give Paul Kane what he wanted? Yeah, he did. Isn't that sad, John?

So sad. He did. He, Chuck Smith very sadly folded to Paul Kane in 1989 and gave Paul Kane. What he wanted, and we have, you know, a copy of that letter too, October 18, 19...

89 on Calvary Chapel of Costa Mesa Letterhead, Paul, Chuck Smith writes, to the pastors and registrants of the Midwest pastors conference, in the questions and answer session of the conference, I made a couple of statements concerning Paul Cain that could be interpreted as inferences that he could be homosexual.

This was very inappropriate on my part, and I wish to apologize to you for those remarks, and you can go on and read the whole thing, but in summary, Chuck Smith retracts what he said about Paul Cain and apologizes for telling the truth.

Chuck Smith apologized and retracted the truth. I mean, that is what this letter is, I hate to say it. Chuck Smith is apologizing and for and retracting the truth about Paul Cain. Paul Cain was a man who wasn't just, it's not just homosexual, he was pressuring his assistants, manipulating people into homosexual acts with him.

There is solid, I mean, I would say solid evidence that there were secret homosexual rituals happening with William Brannum's inner circle from, certainly from the 50s, if not earlier than that, and Paul Cain was connected to this stuff from very early on, ladies and gentlemen, and it's just very unfortunate stuff.

And Chuck Smith had some insight into that, and he retracted it, and kind of protected Paul Cain for a few more years. I hate to say it. And what we see here, John, is Chuck Smith had already woken up to the problems and decided to try and get away from these guys by the mid-70s.

And at this point in time, John Wimber has not woken up, okay? Chuck Smith seems to have woken up in the mid-70s, whereas John Wimber seems to have woken up in the early 90s that this is bad.

Chuck Smith had tried to get away from these guys in the early mid-70s. John Wimber starts trying to get away from them in the early 90s. And the difference between John Wimber and Chuck Smith is a 20-year space of time, right?

Chuck Smith woke up 20 years before John Wimber, and John Wimber woke up after he was diagnosed with cancer, and he died really before he could complete his getaway from these people in the way that Chuck Smith did.

Chuck Smith got away from these people by the end of his life, and put Calvary Chapel on a very, I think a positive, reformative route away from this ideology. John Wimber didn't quite get there.

John Wimber started down that path, but he did not quite get there. And this is the sort of stuff that's going on under John Wimber's leadership in Vineyard. Key guys in his movement are blackmailing senior leaders of other denominations to cover up their dirt.

On John Wimber's watch with John Wimber's knowledge, before John Wimber has woken up, this is before the Toronto blessing and all that. So John, it's also problematic. It's the exact same sort of stuff we see among leadership in the message.

It's the exact same stuff we see in the New Apostolic Reformation today. It's all just a big... Ugly cabal. I hate to say it really is an ugly cabal. And when you look at these movements like, say, Kansas City prophets, the Kansas City Fellowship, the the IHOT movement, when it when it starts crumbling down, the evidence actually comes out that every single last person in senior leadership was one of these dirt bags. They every last one of them had this sort of stuff in their background.

Child molesting. Underage stuff with minors. Prophetic manipulation for sex. I mean, on and on fevery, all of this sort of stuff, every last one of them has this in their closet. They all knew it about each other, and they're all covering for each other. And what we see here in this letter, I'm not saying Chuck Smith was doing those sort of things specifically, but somewhere another, they had something on Chuck Smith in order to silence him, just like they know doubt or silence thing today. I mean, if what we're saying is true, ladies and gentlemen, why is Bill

Johnson quiet? Why is Chris Valetson quiet? Why are all of these other people quiet and not saying anything? Ladies and gentlemen, I mean, is stuff like this the answer? And I would tell you in the message where we come from, which is the granddaddy of the culture of all of this movement, that is absolutely why the leaders don't say anything against each other. That's exactly how it is all held together. Is that how the new apostolic reformation is held together today? I would say the clues are there to say that is absolutely how it is held

together today. And we might have to wait another 20 years until some of them are dead. But this sort of stuff will end up coming out on a lot of the people or in senior leadership, I think, in these movements today.

Well, just consider that Paul Cain recorded every thing. So every leader he connected with, and you can go right down the line of both the new apostolic reformation, the charismatic movement, the Jesus movement, there will be tapes or transcripts or documents that exist for every single person. And whoever has that, I worry, I actually fear a little bit for their safety. I can understand why somebody would not want to share that with me. But what this letter does for me, it does a bigger thing that I think might be helpful. And again, this will be on the website, hopefully by the time this podcast is

releasing, go to the John Wember page or Chuck Smith, any of these guys. But what this shows you for the people who are still in the movement, it shows you how the spiritual authority worked behind closed doors. Think about the people that have left these movements, all of the people who left Brannemism or Vineyard or IHOP KC, some of those people were burned by the platform. And those who stayed just accepted the narrative that was given of why they left. But if you understand that this is how it works, this is blackmail, understand that the rank and file members, they also go through the same

things that you're seeing behind closed doors. And also under stand that the accusations travel faster than the evidence. Think of Chuck Smith's accusations. He kept talking about financial and living high, and I can't remember how he lived at living high on the hog.

Well, he never mentioned any specifics. And again, it's just a random puzzle piece, but the years he's talking about are the same years that Paul Cain had a bank robber on his payroll. Was he being funded by the bank robberies?

I don't know, but what did Chuck Smith know? He never really opened up and said exactly what his accusations for the financials were. But he's talking about the same years that he had a bank robber on his payroll.

Also, we know that there's a lot of gimmicks. There's a lot of fakery. We know that I think I've mentioned this on the podcast. I've had multiple people who were with Paul Cain tell me that he was caught with stacks of phone books in his hotel room before he would go do the name and address discernment thing, which tells you he probably had a photographic memory, but he's reading big stacks of phone books.

Why is he doing this? According to what I'm told, he said, which is all here, say I can't prove this, but he said allegedly that sometimes the gift leaves you and you need a little bit of help between those times and take that for what you will.

I don't know what to date make of that. But it shows you that anyway, the accusation's travel faster than the evidence. And that's the same way it works if you leave the movement. You're accused of things far worse than just leaving the movement when you leave.

You're cut off. Well, that's how it works. And the leadership would literally destroy somebody who revealed their dirty secrets. You can see Paul Cain is about to do this. He's about to unload on Chuck Smith and had Chuck Smith not retracted all of these accusations.

Think of how Chuck Smith would look now instead of being a respected leader. All of Paul Cain's dirt would have hit the public. Everybody would know everything about Chuck Smith that nobody to this day, nobody will probably ever know.

All because he retracted his statement and he helped Paul Cain to shape the narrative. You know, in this document, it's not simply that Chuck Smith accused Paul Cain of being homosexual, but he also had knowledge of how he was faking his discernments.

That is also in this document. Chuck Smith knew how Paul Cain was faking his words of knowledge, what we in the message we call discernments generally. And the message discernment isn't figuring out if someone's lying to you.

And the message discernment is knowing your hidden secrets. Right? So discernment don't mean the same thing and the message is outside. But anyway, Chuck Smith knew that. And I'm sure that that was just as much in more damaging to Paul Cain than the home sexual bit.

So there's just a lot going on there, John. And you know, it's sad and it is unfortunate. And in this sense, I mean, I kind of feel bad. for Chuck Smith. He's obviously trying to go in a good direction and here they come back for him, right? Chuck Smith's trying to keep people from falling into the vineyard movement when all of the new apostolic reformation guys were going nuts in there, right? Which, I think it's a good thing. I think it was a good thing that Chuck Smith was warning the people.

Hey, don't go to vineyard. Don't go to these people here in the 80s because they've got these really bad dangerous people in their midst. Don't go there. I think what Chuck Smith was trying to do was very positive. And here he ended up getting confronted for it, blackmailed to be quiet about it. And it was a successful blackmail, I hate to say. And there's all kinds of successful blackmail. They do it in all kinds of ways today. The NDAs, you hear a lot of these wicked preachers get the people to sign NDAs, John, so they can't even tell where they'll come

to sue them if they tell the dirt that they know. Isn't that awful? I mean,

I don't even know what to say about some of these things. I mean, hell is a mighty hot place. I would be afraid of that place, you know, the way that a lot of these people act. And they think they obviously don't even believe in the Christian faith to behave this way, right? And to be in the hands of those people and trapped in their churches, I mean, my goodness, maybe the NARA is worse than I thought, John, you know, I thought the message was worse, but maybe they're just already as bad as the message is. I mean, good gracious. But what in the world is wrong with

these people? It is bad. And I don't know if there is a worse. Whenever everything is just bad from its foundation, it's just bad. I'll just, I'll leave it at that. They're all equally bad in my opinion. But I want to stop and thank Mike Winger for sending me this document. And to the person who has the collection of all of the documents, I understand why you would withhold them. And hopefully you will stay safe. I'll just say it like that and move on. But there's more out there. And eventually all of this may come to light. Because like I said, every single person

that Paul can encountered, myself included, there will be dirt out there. And who knows what my dirt is, you know, I think back to that conversation often. And I don't really remember saying anything other than asking him questions about what he knew about Brandon and the clan. And he Paul came kind of shut up when I asked him about the homosexual accusations. Because I could tell he was pressuring me one direction. And I don't, I don't like to be pressured. So I just ask him openly about the homosexuality. He fully denied it. He said that he, he said his exact words. If I

remember correctly, were I've never been that, I've been accused that, but I've never been that. What are you talking about, John? And I'm sitting here holding in my hand the document where he is publicly confessed to it. I don't hold him accountable for that. That's, you know, that's between him and God. It's not my opinion that anybody should get involved with that. But what I do hold him accountable.

before is he manipulated the masses, and I'm told that he may have even taken it beyond the homosexual sin into grooming, which is another sin altogether. This is a horrific thing. While working with, as you said, multiple men who were involved in this thing, and we've talked about that, you can go back in the Revival History series.

We had a whole episode talking about the homosexuality and the message. This was not a small thing. He was in the leadership, he was in the rank and fall members, and it was in, apparently, if the rumors are correct, it was between the leaders and the rank and fall members, and there was some, I don't know, maybe ritualistic things happening.

I don't know. But this is a big problem, and Paul Kane is at the center of it because he's involved with it, but he's more concerned about his image than his, he is even the sin.

And for me, I think that is telling of what this movement developed, but anyway, thank you so much for doing this, Charles. Yeah, thanks, John. As we wrap this up, I think I'll just say that, I don't have a negative view of Calvary Chapel today.

I believe that Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel has largely reformed away from this many years ago. And I think the vineyard movement is in the process of reforming away from this. And I hope that that continues to happen because this sort of stuff is there.

And the birds that flew the coop out of Calvary Chapel went to vineyard and then flew the coop out of vineyard and are now in the nar. Their nest is on fire again today, ladies and gentlemen, and there are no doubt going to be looking for a new place to land.

And what is important is to, is to drive a silver stake through Dracula's heart, okay? Don't worry about throwing out the baby with the bathwater, as long as you got the baby Jesus, you're going to be fine and throw out the rest and you can figure the rest out later.

That's what I think about this stuff. This is beyond the pale, this stuff. There's something really ugly and evil at the heart of this ideology and this movement and somehow, somehow that's got to be thrown out, got away with and people just got to come be safe with Jesus away from this stuff.

I don't know what else to say about it, John. So that's where I'll end. Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at www.Williamdashbrandom.org and www.ChristianGospelChurch.org.

For more about the history of William Brannum and the healing revivals, you can read come out of her my people and for more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle and Audible.