Shawn Bolz, Bethel, and the Prophetic Playbook Nobody Wants Examined

Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Brannum Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Brannum Historical Research at www.William-brannum.org and with me I have my co-hosts and friends, Brantley Smith and Alwyn Dunning. Brantley, Alwyn, good to be back. Good to have you back on. Alwyn has been a while. As you know, all of this stuff with Bethel is just flying everywhere. People are sending me so many things. I honestly can't even read them all right now or watch them, most of them are videos. But so much is coming out and Alwyn, you

mentioned that you wanted to share some of your experiences. As everybody knows, I'm not one of these people that hops onto the bandwagon whenever some big event happens and some churches being attacked from all sides for doing something very destructive. I'm more of a methodical attack, the core doctor and attack the thing that really caused the whole, I don't know, the whole crumbling empire to exist. However, there is some precedence for having somebody who was actually a victim at Bethel to come on and speak. So glad that you offered to do this and I guess I'll just let everybody listen as you

introduce yourself again for those who don't know who you are and how you are connected to Bethel. So probably most people that would know me would know me from somebody who was speaking out in regards to standing beside the original Jane Doe that came forward with IHOP spent some time early on with Mike and that camp at Metro before it became IHOP. It was a part of IHOP for a little while. But you know, you read these cult books and they talk about that sometimes you end up in three or four different camps. And I'll just say this,

for me personally, when I left and detangled a lot of things with IHOP, you know, the gnosticism, the works, the intense fasting, the everything's evil and coistered and you know, I could go on and on. For me, I really felt like Bethel was like this cup of cold water in the desert after that. Not realizing that it was on the opposite side of the spectrum, but it was on the same spectrum. You know, I've said this before like sometimes I feel like that randomism is a virus that it just mutates a little bit differently in the camp.

So there's similarities and there's differences. A lot of people find themselves happening from morning start at IHOP to to Bethel. But I Personally, I went to two conferences. I'm so ashamed to say this, but I went to two school of the prophets and two other conferences.

Listen to their music, a ton, listen to their teachings, followed them on social media and that kind of thing. So that's kind of, oh, and I have permission to say this, but my son did three years at the SSM.

Oh, that's crazy. I am super grateful for Owen. I wanted to interject this before we got deep into conversation. But me and Owen became friends about two years ago. I think it's been now, I was trying to recount last night.

And Owen is responsible for me meeting John, which I am super grateful for, for introducing us and opening up a wide network of connections to me. So I am super grateful for you, super grateful for your journey.

And I am excited to talk to you about Bethel. You know, I think for me, I think we'll have another conversation another day where I'd love to share about some of the experiences that I've had at school with the prophets and things like that.

When I was listening to your podcast, John, and you were talking about somebody within the old camp around Bran, I'm starting school of the prophets about fell out of my chair, how interesting of a title.

And so, like I said, I'm so embarrassed. But, you know, I was trained really early on within Metro and those types of things and called out is a prophet, prophetess, whatever. Like I fully denounced all titles and offices and all that kind of nonsense.

And, you know, I don't have a stage. I'm just a nobody. But I will say that, you know, I spent a lot of time training and activating and all of the different things. And I spent actually time with Sean Bowles when he was at Metro.

And he was just this kind of an early guy that played video games and had a prophetic gift and he wasn't getting addresses and names and birth dates and all that stuff. But there was a certain level of discipleship or mentoring with him.

And so I find that pretty interesting. When I saw him launch from Bethel's stage and doing all this stuff, I was like, what have I missed? Because I was off the grid detangling for a really long time and I'm like, something happened between here and here with Sean.

And so, never saw him at any conferences or anything like that. But I saw him on all the rosters and, you know, saw the videos and then of course, you see him on the stage at the call and Azusa's and all that different stuff and I just thought, well, dang, something happened in his camp.

You know, you mentioned it's like a virus and it's, it's really odd. In fact, I have a person today that just email me, I get this all the time. This is guilt by association.

That's the most common phrase that's thrown around. But when you understand that it's a doctrinal framework that they're all sharing, how can you not say that it's all connected? They're all doing the same thing.

It's the same stage act. And the problem is places like Bethel, and this is my opinion, so take it as for what you will. They probably have a different opinion, but I look at it like it is, it's a, you know, a spiritual den of thieves.

I hate to say it like that, but you have these ministries that are built upon people who are known to be con artists, and they're supporting it. John G. Late, one of the guys that is reverent, not just Bethel, but many of the NAR, and just go to the web and type in John G. Late, con man, and you'll see they have completely uncovered all of his history.

How he was the, he was the person who was helping Dowie with his con with a faith healing con. He would, they would be in different cities, and he would take a telegraph and say, I'm healed.

I'm healed. Well, John G. Late goes to Africa, and he does the same thing, but he has family members who were healed of the same disease like 15 times. It's kind of crazy, because they're all part of the stage act.

And that's what this becomes. It's a stage act, and it's a virus, and you mentioned the school of the prophets. I actually have a person who's coming on soon to talk about that school that's here locally, but it's a cascading event of error that instead of cascading to its destruction, it cascades bigger and bigger, and big empires are built upon top of it.

When my son went to Bethel, and again, I have permission to share some things from my perspective, that's when the eyes started opening a little bit. But I'd almost like to talk about the indoctrination in programming that happens when we're really young.

First of all, I came into Metro at 19 years old, an 11-month discipleship program, left for two years back to vineyard, and then came in nine months into an uber charismatic, louingal, orientated, hyper-works, hyper-demand group.

And you hear a lot of these things, and I'm sure Brantley could speak to these as well, because he came into eye-up kind of after I was gone, right? So chew the meat spit out the bones, is a big one.

God will offend your mind to reveal your heart, and all of these teachings about offence, they use the bait of Satan in these types of things. So there's these teachings that go on that turn off your critical thinking.

Every time you're quote-unquote offended, or AKA, I don't know, using critical thinking or sensing things that are wrong, it's like programming kicks in, right? It's just, it's like muscle memory, it's just there. Sometimes you actively tell yourself that, and sometimes you just do it.

So my son calls me one day, as he, you know, we talked a couple times a week, and he's like, no, I've got a question for you. He's like, I've heard Bill Johnson say this a couple different times, and I've heard other people say this too, and it's not sitting right with me.

I'm like, okay, bud, what is it? He's like, they say that they're not raising up disciples, that they're raising up revivalists. So you know, I'm trying to teach my soon-to-be-adult son. critical thinking. I'm like, well, what do you think? Like, why doesn't that sit right with you?

And he's just like, you know, over and over again, people's complaint here is that they're not being disciples. And, you know, they're creating revivalists. So we have this whole conversation. And my conversation with him was, what was the last words that Jesus said? Go there for and make disciples. So in my mind, immediately, and I think I even said these words to my son, chew the meat and spit out the bones. Here's the thing. At what point do we realize there's a bone yard? Bone yard after bone yard after bone yard and where it's enough, where it's big enough

that it's a problem. That was my first kind of like, huh, you know, I love whenever those phrases become things that we end up using in a positive thing for us. I find myself all the time, Mike used to always pray that prayer of like, God, let me see what you see and feel what you feel when you look at me kind of think. And I've caught myself over the years, like using that as like a centering practice of sorts. As you were talking about going into, prior to going into these environments, almost being groomed for it in a sense, I think about, and I don't think we've

ever talked about this, John, that there was shades of like the shepherding movement in my home church with our youth group specifically to where it was, it was, what it ended up doing was removed agency from us. It removed the risk of consequence in a sense. So it was appealing in that way, because we knew if we had our leaders approval for something that if something went bad, it came back on them. But we all know if it did go bad, it would always come back on us. But that's that was, you know, kind of where it went. I don't think it's come out yet before this podcast drops,

but I have, I've been doing work, as you know, with other people in Y-WAM looking to try to understand how, how is that all connected? And as I'm researching, I came across a news article where leadership from the shepherding movement were actually visiting the bases. So the shepherding, it's widespread. This is all really connected if you really understand how it all works.

It's connected so much that I sympathize with you working with your son. I have friends who are in splinter groups of brannemism who whenever they finally escape that splinter group, the very first place that they go is Bethel because it's so familiar to them. Even though brannem, you know, he's totally different doctrine, different central figure, etc., the doctrinal framework that was established that brannem was helping to establish, it is so familiar to these people, they get re-victimized whenever they leave the groups. Sometimes I wonder how vulnerable to be, but why not, you know, like if your story can help somebody else out there, like I was an idiot,

you know, a sincere, you know, useful idiot, I guess. But, you know, I actually went to Bethel the first time because it's a whole series. of events that's not worth getting into, but like I felt like God sent me there to get a mantle.

And so when you bring your kids into things, man, I'm so thankful, I've paid for a lot of counseling. I'll just say that. But we've had frank conversations where we've had to apologize and I'm very grateful for my adult children that we have a great relationship and we're detangling together and that, you know, they've been able to share hurt and we love each other a ton.

And so, you know, that doesn't always happen and I'm really grateful. But one of the other kind of core indoctrination things is this one and, apparently, maybe you can relate to this, but it's like dig for the gold.

So you're going to pick up on stuff. And so it's almost taught that like this radius around everybody, there's this solish floating stuff, you know, you can picture a screen like Iron Man with Jarvis or something, you know, like, swiping it out of the way and there's just, you know, all of these solish things around someone you're going to pick up on their sin.

And so any prophet worth their two cents is going to kind of bat it out of the way and reach through and find the gold, you know. And so yes, on one hand, we should be seeing people at their best and what they can be and those types of things.

But what I think that really does is every time your brain says this is a red flag, this is a yellow flag. All of a sudden your critical thinking goes down because you're afraid of being offended or, you know, you got to, you know, find the gold.

And I think a lot of predators take advantage of this stuff. Sean Bulls taught it, Bob Jones taught it, Bob Hartley taught, I mean, I don't know how many people didn't, but it's a really big one at Bethel.

So there's a lot of this positive thinking, positive thinking, you know, they call it, you know, declarations, but let's call it what it is, it's name it, claim it. It's, it's just a rebranded word of faith message mixed in there.

And, and it doesn't allow for people to pay attention to stop signs that they should see. Yeah. It's the, the, the see the best in people like the digging for the gold thing. It made me think, I'm super grateful for Mike Winger's work, but if you don't know, it's a six hour video that he did, I don't know too many people that actually watched the whole thing all the way through.

I got to, I probably watched you in half three hours of it or something, but, but one of the things that's, one of the weapons that Sean used in that with the, the people that he was grooming in a sense will say was that he would turn it back on to them.

That instead of it being something that he was doing wrong, even though it was obvious by his actions, while he was doing would not be accepted. I don't think in any religious circle, let alone Christian circles like it was just not okay.

And he looked at them and says, well, you must have a religious spirit or you're just uptight or you're just this or just that and it's Darvo in a sense in the moment that it's reversing victim and offender kind of thing. Oh, it's your fault that you're uncomfortable with this. And I can't imagine that that extra element of because I don't know if they were fully aware of his data mining and stuff the whole time like the people that worked with him. But whenever you're around those prophetic people, I want to be sure you're very familiar with this is you're afraid that they're just going to like see your soul and

like see like all your dirt and all your sin. And they know what you did before you came to church today. And they know like these things is like God forbid they call it out from the platform or something. But then you find out they're all grifters. And again fear becomes a tool of control. I've mentioned on the podcast before, but there was a minister and one of the churches that I attended. And it's exactly like you said, you fear what they say because he can peer into your very soul. That's how this framework is established.

But I remember I remember clearly sitting there in this absolutely drop dead gorgeous woman walks into the congregation. And I'm a man, everybody else who's a man, you see the beauty that's walking in, right? Well, as the guy is preaching, he can't keep his eyes off of her. And in afterwards, he apparently called her out and said, you have a seductive spirit on you, lady. And he was dealing with his own personal issues, obviously, as were probably half the men in the congregation. But he redirected that focus to her because now she can start gilting herself. Is it something I did? What did I do wrong? And that's

really the problem here. The leadership won't admit that they're human. They want to be superhuman. They're above all of this. And they can peer into your very soul. So whenever half of the things that you just said, Brantley, the phrases, the loaded language that you're using, that was also common loaded language in what we came out of in Brantemism. And that's why it's so familiar. That's why the revictimization. Man, if we had a dollar for every time we've heard that story, you know, Jezebel, or it's so interesting how scriptures taken in this charismatic, fundamentalist light until it's stuff like pluck out your eyebrow, you know,

eyeballs, because you're, you know, like it's not what's happening outside that defiles you, it's what's happening inside. Oh, no, like those scriptures don't apply right now. You know, it's, you know, so and so needs to go through some healing program or something like that, because, you know, they didn't wear, you know, a burka or something. It's absolutely ridiculous.

I kind of want to turn the thought to some of the online stuff, because this reminds me of Chris talking about, you know, Chris Valentin, how tough it is to be a pastor in an online age and, you know, those types of things. And so, yes, but also, can I just say, you took up the job of being a leader. And there really is a difference between online trolls, because the really are people who will just argue for the sake of argument and they're just, you know, mean, and people asking legitimate questions. For instance, I know several people during the Bickel

debacle coming out, you know, might spend on their stage, their buddies, you know, all of that kind of thing. Side note really quickly that I want to say is I have heard from a lot of people at Bethel, including my son, that when people come from IHOP and go to their school, they actually, and this is my wording, but they put them through deprogramming from IHOP because they don't like the, you know, end times doom and gloom, you know, they're really happy about like the future, you know, the future is going to be better. Anyways, that was one of the things that drew me there,

but back to Chris and online. So what I find really interesting is, in my opinion, I think that some of his behavior online is kind of bullying-ish. Now granted, it's his page, I guess he can act like how he wants, but you know, free to the spirit or whatever might be nice, but he just blocks anyone that asks a question. So we had folks that were a part of, you know, like, hey, SSM alumni here, you know, are you going to speak up about Mike? And so he goes on stage, and I've heard him several times when I was at school of the prophets, like, you know, everybody blasts us

all the time and takes stuff out of context, and you know, like casting this whole thing of like, what was me? I'm the victim. And he literally cracks a joke, calls the people asking him to speak out in idiot, and the whole crowd laughs. And I'm thinking, yeah, 20 victims of a multi-decade abuse. That's funny stuff, man. You know, like, why are we making fun of this stuff? Like, weeping is the answer here. Like, like, not Mike Bickel's my friend. And so we see an ecosystem there of many predators, of many grifters, of the place where predators go to be restored. And so

this isn't an alone event that just happened. Mike Winger should not be making six-hour videos, which by the way, I watched the three-hour one and the six-hour one. And he, we just shouldn't, he shouldn't be doing that. They should be calling their own stuff out, which they seem incapable of doing. We had a front row seat, me and I went to whenever this stuff was going on with, Bob Hartley, after he got called out at IHOP, and he fled to Bethel. And even Bob Sun Jed, who's also, I would call him a friend, and John has him on. And we know Jed and Jed reached out

to Bethel leadership, reached out to security there, did these different things, and they still turned a blind eye. And as you're talking about Chris Columnum idiots, I can't help, and I know people hate that I go here so often. But I heard that in a news clip just last night of someone who is questioning a narrative of media and of one of our national- leaders will say, looks at them and says, anybody that didn't see that, you're all idiots, you're all idiots if you think that. And it's such a learned behavior. And it's also like a tool to cause that dividing line of like, you don't want to be the idiot. So you'd

pick a side is what ends up happening. But whenever they frame those questions and those inquiries as persecution, you can't help but laugh. People ask me why I don't jump on the bandwagon whenever something like this comes out. I usually avoid it. It's not just because I'm more interested in the history, which that part is true. I could really care less about the modern. But the bigger problem is you jump on that bandwagon and you're actually playing into their narrative. The way this narrative works is this is spiritual warfare. We are spiritual warriors. The enemy has risen up against the church. And now we are, we have to admit our apology.

And that always happens. You know, the apology comes. But what comes next is textbook and it will happen with Bethel. It's happened with IHOP. It happens all the way down the line. They realize that actually the apology and the fallout from that is less powerful than the martyr complex that they come with next. They will play the martyr card. They will say Satan rose up against us.

They attacked our church. They almost brought us down. Look what happened. And what it is, they redirect focus from the real issue, which here we have con artists that they're supporting our predators. That's really the bottom line. They redirect focus from that to the fact that we're spiritual warriors and look what just happened to our church. Well, in that framework, they are guiltless. It's the enemy that did it. It's not us. It kind of reminds me of my kid when he does something bad. The devil made me do it, dad. That's what they're saying.

Exactly what they're saying. It's interesting how you look at, I don't know, hypothetically. Let's say you're a predator. You know that there's a chance that you've got lots of victims and that maybe the history, prophetically, that you've been weaving could come undone.

Because I don't know, maybe it's made up or altered or all of the above or things didn't happen that were prophesied or you've got victims. The smartest defense is an offense. You come up with stories in advance about like lo and behold, someday a black horse is going to come or whatever that situation hypothetically might happen. But it's like this in a lot of the different places. But can I just say that at Bethel, there's this don't look back. Bill had this maybe someone else is running his page. Maybe it was locked and loaded in advance. I don't know. But right after

these videos come out, it's like yesterday's sins. Don't visit the past. And so there's this kind of like mind blocking or the sin leveling, even if like don't ever look back, you know, ever, ever because that's the blood of Jesus cancels this out. Here's a quick story.

I live in a place where a lot of people Bethel live and by the way I have a ton of friends that are involved in Bethel and there's good things at Bethel and there's really beautiful people please still be my friends after this podcast but I think they're wonderful and I think that they're sincere and I think that some of them like me have been groomed and so this story represents that so without going into too much detail I ended up meeting this person who had moved from Bethel and we kind of got stuck together in this situation

and so it's going to be a meal together with other people and this person doesn't know me from Adam right doesn't know my job with IHOP or anything you know in terms of speaking out and out of the blue she says you know good golly like isn't it wild that whole story with Robert Morris and that woman coming forward years and years later and you know she's just a money grub and I'm just like don't don't just cost don't hit you know I'm just like wow like this is really interesting I don't know what it is but when women have

that response there's just something that guts me you know having been a victim in my childhood of a ton of those different types of things man and the weight and the counseling that you need and the physical breakdown of your body that happens and no I'm not a victim I am a survivor I've got plenty of wonderful stories I can tell but I'm like are you aware that happened for four years are you aware that she signed NDAs are you aware that she was silenced are you aware are you aware well no I haven't really looked into it well let me just say

first of all that survivor deserves millions of dollars because there is a biblical concept called recompense but the harm that was caused her cost her a lot of money just a duct tape herself together but here's what this woman kept continually bringing up haven't she you send Owen have and I'm like yeah but no I have never you know assaulted 12 year old for four years listen all sin isn't the same there are sins that go before a man there are sins that go behind a man when leaders sin they should be called out from the front I'll be kind of reading

some scriptures later because I think it might be really helpful for a lot of the folks who've burned brainwashed with it this other stuff but it makes me so mad when the name of Jesus or the blood of Jesus or any religious terms whatsoever are used as an excuse that there isn't responsibility for what happened it's just infuriating I my jaw was just dropped I could not believe that my quote unquote lack of mercy or understanding of the cross was the problem there it was wild have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of

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You know, earlier in the podcast, you were talking about the indoctrination, and you weren't afraid to say it. And talking about the lady who gives this type of response. It isn't just the women that do this, the men do it, but you're correct in that by and large, the women are more likely to do it than men.

And there's a reason for that. The indoctrination of this hierarchy that they have created for the male and females. They have created it in such a way that the women feel like the leadership can do no wrong.

And that is by design, and that's part of the reason why we have so many predators. When a leader does something that's horrific, they say, well, you send to, what's the big deal? He's sending, you're sending.

We're all sending, hey, we're all sinners. That's the kind of the framework that's been established here. But they don't understand, like you said, that leadership is in a different category. You can't continue leadership if you're doing this kind of thing.

But because the way that this has been established, the leadership are above any sort of accountability. And there, this authoritarian control that they have created, it puts them in a position where they can't be seen as mortals.

They have to be super mortal. They have to be, they're basically the mediator between God and man. And who are you to call out the mediator between God and man? And it's just not a biblical model at all.

No, it's, the things that I keep going back to, you're talking earlier about, it's almost like there's a playbook for this stuff. And there really is. It's, I'm thinking back to IHOP stuff that's very similar to what you're referencing all in is, I remember Mike would use the phrase all the time, you talk about the rage of Satan.

And so that was a way to frame these outside questions, these quote unquote, persecutions as the devil. And I remember there being times where it's like, oh, it's not that person, it's the devil.

Kind of thing, it just reframed slightly. And after all the, the Mike Bickle stuff went public in October 23, one of the first messages we heard was from the prophet. air quotes Chris Reed who came and he preached the message of don't look back. That was exactly the message it was of God has so much in front of you. Don't dwell on the past. Don't look back.

And if you do look back, he framed it in the context of the story of Lot and his wife. He's like, if you look back, you don't want to be turned into a pillar of salt. And so like at that point, it's put on you. And the other tool that Mike would use, I think, that he hoped, I think, would come around and save him was the whole push delete and move on. That there was like such a low, there wasn't a whole lot of consequence for sin in those, it to be to be so outspoken

against sin. Sometimes there would be penalizations that happen, but they would use that, especially with their inner circles, with your stories, that they would use that to grant themselves clemency in a sense, that it's it's push delete and move on. We all have weaknesses. We all have this. And all the while they're using as a tool to push their abuses under the rug, which is very different than the most sins that we are committing on a weekly basis. We're not abusing people

just as part of the human experience, but it's the sin leveling. That's exactly what it is. I, I'm not one to be like, okay, their response wasn't repentant, see enough for humble enough, or whatever it is, like I truly can't judge the, the motives of somebody's heart. Okay.

But let's see the fruit of repentance. How's that? Release everybody that has signed NDAs through the year. That is a fruit of repentance. NDAs do not belong in the church. Name and call out the other predators that you have connected to, endorse, put on your stage, etc. Be honest about what has happened and what you've known. What I find interesting is they didn't even discuss the Bob Hartley stuff at all in that like they didn't know I didn't catch that. Yeah. And so maybe I've missed something. So forgive me if I wrong, but to my knowledge, they have not reached out to

Jubilee Don to apologize to her or the other guy that cashed in his retirement to create a film and almost lost his marriage and all that kind of stuff as well. Listen, those are two stories.

There are thousands of stories of people who have made decisions, moved places, married people, broke up with people, you name it, that the fallout, the fruit from this stuff is so rotten and it's so interesting. I, you know, we don't study spiritist, right? Like we study scripture. And, you know, in listening to John's podcast, he's talking about, you know, Roy E.

Davis and, you know, the mentalists and the, you know, of course, getting information fed to them and all of those types of things. And then I've seen video sense then of, of Paul Kane having people moved through the line and he's got the numbered cards and they've got very good memories of nothing else. But it's like, when you see it, You're just like, oh my gosh.

Like it was, you see the grift. It's like the wolf falls off your eyes. But listen, people don't know about Shawn Voles, except for the most part that he was launched from their stage.

They talk them up, they share stories, they lift them up to celebrity status, and now it's time to make a recompense for the harm. That's been done. Yeah, I completely agree. I was, I read their statement.

I didn't listen to the apology. The video apology, but frankly, for that reason, I knew that they weren't doing anything to bring restitution. And at that point, words are just words. But I can't help but to look back at where Shawn came from, as you mentioned earlier, like he was a product of Mike Bickles' culture.

I've heard those who say that his kind of mentor of sorts, somebody that we're all very familiar with, if you listen to podcasts, is Paul Kane. And so it's, it seems like a bad joke eventually.

Like, whenever you see that all these people are connected to the same root system, over and over, like it, it feels like a bad dream that you want to wake up from is what is really what it feels like.

If I were a predator, and I wanted to go make money, and be in a place that if I was found out that I would be quickly restored, I'd go to the charismatic church.

Now, I can't speak to other churches. I know there's plenty of stuff that goes on in them, but I just haven't been involved with them. So people are so quick to eat any breadcrumb, to see people restored.

And listen, I think that truly repenting people can be restored to God, but there's a point where the sheep or the people they just need to be protected. And I'll never forget Rick Joyner reading what he said.

Like he knew Todd Bentley was gonna like fall again and like re-vec to my people essentially, and he'd put him into place anyways. And I'm like, why is no one like Rick? You need to sit down and retire, buddy.

Like that's not okay. And it's just a safe haven. It's an ecosystem that needs to be addressed. And there's so many teachings. And I'd love to talk about some of those in a minute here.

Well, that's just it. It is an ecosystem. And I get accused often of all trails lead back to Brannum and my research. That's not really quite accurate, but many trails do, because he and Gordon Lindsay systematized this entire thing.

They're all of these other ministries that were doing similar things, bits and pieces of it. And these two man basically created a platform that generated cult leaders. You can read through voice of healing and you can find all of the different guys that are claiming.

I saw an angel, I saw a vision from heaven. I actually went to heaven. I actually went to hell. All of these different things. And it's just state. jacked if you read and understand. I mean, one of the stage acts literally was a boy who claimed that he could see through a plastic eye from God. That's the kind of stage acts that's being promoted in this thing, right? When you have that kind of ecosystem where it really doesn't matter if you're Christian or not, as long as you have a gimmick and as long as you can draw a crowd into

that gimmick, the idea of the movement was really this, which is a nostic idea, that we can tell lies for the sake of a holy end, because if we lie and the faith is converted by the people and that faith is in Jesus Christ, then we have done God's work whether we're lying or not.

The problem is you still have liars at the top and those liars aren't, they have no sense of accountability or... I hate to say it, but many of them probably aren't even Christian because Christians don't do this kind of thing, but they're in the leadership of this ecosystem.

I think that there's a website that people should check out. It's called Show Me the Toes.com. And yeah, it's still up. One of the things that Mike Winger brings up in that video is the fact that there was this woman who claimed that three of her toes grew back and then they wouldn't show the toes, right? Show me the toes. And finally, they're like, we're not going to re-victimize her, what? Like, by having her show the miracle, we're going to document it. And so she finally puts a picture of her foot up there and then somebody scrolls down in her Facebook post and sees

an old picture of her foot that's exactly the same. Well, you know, that was addressed in Mike Winger's video in terms of this buddy of bills saying it happened and Bill going on stage and saying it happened, it was verified by a doctor or that your toes grew. I mean, the toes grew or they didn't, right? So, you know, I'm not going to call out every miracle. I believe in, you know, I've seen some things that I can't, you know, deny. But, you know, like, let's just not make it up, right? So, there's this book. So, Danny Silk was one of the people who was brought in behind

the scenes in terms of Sean. It's called unpunishable. Yes, I've read it. Yes, I've even recommended it to some people. It's really interesting to me to look back at like what was happening in my brain when I read that because there were some really beautiful things in this book. But, but the premise is that he tells the story. So, I'm not going to name a name. He happens to be overall the prophetic still to this day as of January 12th, at least, when he did a teaching and at Bethel. So, here's the story. He had an intern or BSSM student, someone, you know, younger and in their care, living in his

home and he, quote, unquote, had a affair. And he got found out and they put him basically on desk duty and they told it was the second year or the third year or the second and the third year only. And then it comes out that he'd had a quote, unquote, another affair. I don't know the details of it. But, let's just call it what it is. It was CS A, just like a doctor and a patient, a therapist, and their client, a teacher, and their student, they lose licenture and go to jail, right?

So this is a crime, by the way, in 14 or 15 states, not enough, but we're gonna do something about that. That being said, he wasn't restored properly in the past, apparently. And so this woman is like fired from her job there and treated terribly, and he goes through this restoration process, never told the church.

Now, this book is all about that there's people that Danny knows that would sit there in judgment and not understand the mercy and the grace of Jesus, and they would want him permanently removed from ministry.

And I remember reading that and I was like, man, I don't understand mercy. I don't understand grace, I don't understand the cross. And there's something wrong with me. Well, rewind to my first school of the prophets, which was right when the car fire was so it was 2018.

I go there and I go to, oh, this is so embarrassing, but I go to this dream interpretation workshop. And this dude is sharing about dream interpretation. And one of the things that he talks about is that there are times where you can have a dream and you might, I'm trying to find the word so I don't get buzzed here.

Have intimacy, you know? Like a husband and a wife would have with someone you're not married to or a person or even Jesus. And that doesn't necessarily mean that it's something wrong, that it could represent intimacy with Jesus.

And I'm like, you know, like what in the, like I didn't even hear this nonsense at Metro. And he's talking in this beautiful black mama from Africa stands up and her beautiful garb. And she just, you know, like only a black mama can, you know, she just dresses him down and she's like, you know, where we're from.

Like we're not in rational land. Like we understand stuff in the spirit and like this is not okay. And da-da-da, the dude doubles down. And I just remember thinking like check red flag, red flag, red flag, like, but here he is endorsed by these guys and on the stage and they haven't called him out on his story yet.

So two years later I go back to school, the prophets, and they reveal this story to everybody. And I'm like, God's mercy, God's mercy, God's mercy, God's mercy, something's wrong with me that I have a problem with this.

I'm a little more educated now. That was CSA and it is unacceptable. And that is just one story about the ecosystem of what's being taught to all of these people. You should have at least told your church so they could choose to attend or not.

I mean, like bare minimum, right? I'm one of these people that's not too proud to admit that much of my moral code came from Andy Griffith's show. I watch that show. And the funny part is it actually had more morals than the religion that I left, which is just mind-boggling.

Think about it, but there was this one episode. I don't know if you saw it or not, but there was a ex-con man who came into Mayberry and he was just trying to establish himself, find some work.

The whole town rose up against him. Everybody hated this guy and he was trying to do better. And Andy Griffith stepped in, it's the, you know, at the end there's the heartwarming thing where he explains that this guy is trying to do good.

He had a bad past and now he's trying to do good. And the key difference between the moral of that story and the moral of the church today, the charismatic church today, Andy Griffith was not at all hiding the fact that this guy was an ex-convict.

You might be at risk. This guy, yes, was an ex-convict. He's trying to turn his life around. In this type of religion that has been established, they hide the fact, they don't want you to know.

Picture that same story, if say it wasn't Andy, say that it was Opie and Opie starts letting the guy, I don't know, run the little league for the kids and finally they find out that, oh my gosh, the little leagues been operated, been coached by this ex-convict, all of our kids were at risk and he would have stepped in and said, all right, all y'all need to be locked up.

And that's really what needs to happen today. You look at the church today, they're letting people who should never, ever be back in leadership in those positions. And some of them say that they did some small thing.

There's still no transparency. So when you find out, that's why all of this explodes into the way that it does today. That's why Bethel has to have this response they have because they're not transparent in the beginning.

Whenever it finally does leak out, you have to step up and say, oh, we're sorry, this happened. And then later, like I said, they're gonna play the martyr card. Satan rose up against our church, it almost took us down, look what happened.

But now we're better, God is back on our side. That's literally how this house of cards, crumbles and rebuild itself. I think to one of the things that stood out to me at Bethel was the, it's called honor, but it's like celebrity worship.

When Bill's gonna go speak, for instance, there's a standing ovation before he even speaks like a really long one. And I'm like, okay, there's something wrong with me and dishonor, you know, do you see a theme in me like that I've been healing from?

Like, and then they have these flash cards that they sell in the bookstore. I don't know if they're still there, but they were last time I checked. They're quotes of Bill that you could buy.

And I'm like, who are we following y'all? Like, that's not honor, like that's people worship. So my first, okay, my first flag was my son, like, you know, the discipleship thing. And then my second one was they did the series on the office of, you know, the prophet, the pastor, whatever, and so Bill was the apostle.

And so at the end, I think it was Dan Hurley. He's like, Bill, like, what about this NAR thing, you know? you part of the N.I.R. and it feels like I don't know really what that is. This is my paraphrase.

And I remember sitting there and I was like, I know what that is. How do you not know what that is? And I just thought, I think he just fidded for what the word. I'm like, did he just lie?

Like, and then you're like, is that possible? No, that's not possible that he lied. The other thing was my oldest son when he found out we were kind of going to Bethel. He's like, you know, that they practiced necromancy there. Like, what's up with that, you know? And I'm like, no, that's not true because here's the thing. Like, there were accusations of grave soaking, sucking, whatever. And they released this statement like a couple of rowdy unbelievable, you know, students went and did some things. Like, we're not behind that. Like, you know, we disavow, disavow.

This, you know, message will delete in 30 seconds. And come to find out, like, I actually have pictures of the late, you know, Benny Johnson laying on different, you know, God's Generals Craves. We see Bill there. He says he was just honoring. We see, of course, video of like, Sean Foy at, uh, um, Count Sins and Dorf with that other guy that little guy that defends I hop all the time. And it's fascinating how there's just proof over and over and over again that it's happening. And so when I saw that, I was like, well, that's a lie because you're doing

that. You did that. So if you're lying about that, what else are you lying about? Well, I remember a very similar thing happening whenever I was in I hop you, with Dave Slyker, we asked about NAR. There's what it was. And we were all hearing that phrase for the first time. And this probably would have been 2010, 2011, something like that. And I remember him being like, no, we're not that and like trying to give all these reasons of why. But it also reminded me of which we still don't have a whole lot of like public information on, I guess,

which is that the Tyler Deaton stuff that happened at I hop whenever his wife was was found in a car by the lake is what we'll say. There was a very specific distancing that happened between I hop leadership and this group. But whenever we hear testimonies from this group, I hop leadership was actually very close with this group and like had mentoring relationships with this group. And it wasn't until because that was ideal for them. These people were living in extreme community. They were sharing finances, sharing housing, sharing food, all these different things that were having meetings every night. Like it makes I hop look like a walk in the park as far

as like high control. And as soon as things take a turn, it's disavow. We don't know these people. I've heard stories not going to out people, but I've heard stories as soon as all that stuff happened. They're running them live in email servers, doing name searches, they're deleting videos, all these different things to try to hide the fact that they knew anything about these folks.

And we're still seeing that happen with with with with winger with his videos as he was approaching Bethel with these things about Sean All of a sudden all these videos started getting taken down and I love that he like broke out his cell phone show and The the computer screen showing that this video is unavailable now because that's what they do I've been doing a research project that I told a friend. I was like, I can't say anything about this publicly because if I do They're going to end up taking everything down like that's that's their move. That's what they do

It's it's a playbook. It is Interestingly enough, you know, the first survivor that went forward was to Patricia King and it sounds like she treated that person with empathy Made some recordings three different ones sent them to Cheon. It was hot a game of hot potato, right?

Listen, I haven't told my personal story yet of a groomer and everything that I went through Trying to come forward. Maybe I'll be brave enough someday, but you when you're they call it the second wound how you're treated after you try to come forward and Honestly, to this day, it's more painful than the things that happen and

It just breaks my heart that these people have been hurt and All the while there's books being sold and frankly every single person I agree with Mike Winger every single person that endorsed that book It needs to come forward with a statement. So back to Patricia King She's like she issues this statement like I feel really bad. I'm sorry You know, maybe there was some genuine stuff in their crate But she's like I do not hardly know the man and Mike Winger like whips out all these videos and she's like I've known shambles since he was a teenager and all these different times where she's just like, you know

Dear friends and friends of the house and all these different things and it's like Yalayan, you know Listen, these honorarians that these guys make are unbelievably huge Yeah, it's it's crazy because like that the financial impacts like that's the thing like what does somebody have to do?

What do we not know about Sean that he becomes such a liability that they cut him off? I mean, there's there's public testimony and all this stuff But that didn't keep them from keeping Paul Kane on I hop property for years I didn't keep Bob Jones from saying in ministry like we know these guys have skeletons in their closet Like I wonder if they have like a data analytics person in their back office like at what point do they become more of a risk than they are a benefit Well, and Charles and I talked about that this Monday

I it's probably come out before you guys have heard it Jed and I are going to talk about it to some extent Paul Kane had dirt on every single person and actually had recordings and We got one of the transcripts of one of those recordings and you can clearly tell that some buttons are being pushed Even though the transcript that we got was heavily edited it looked like It's hard to know because we don't know what's underneath there But it looks like to protect Chuck Smith and Chuck Smith had a sudden chains of heart I'm not going to condemn Paul Kane of his homosexuality after Paul Kane came in bully dust and threatened whatever it was he threatened

So very clearly they have dirt on each other, but it just shows that this is a systematic problem. This is not a single church problem. This is something that is developing over and over in bigger and nastier ways.

And it all comes back to the fact that the foundation that was laid wasn't a Christian foundation. And all of these ministries are building on top of something that wasn't Christian in the first place.

So anyway, very glad that you came and shared all of this with all of that. I may ask you to come back and do some more with this if you have more information. Would you be interested in doing that?

I would. I feel like I talked about 10% of something. I'd love to add this before we go if that's okay. Two things. One, a book I recommend. Something's not right by Wade Mullen.

It's kind of showcases the playbook. So concessions and minimizations, I'll leave you with those words. Look up the definitions. Could be what's happening, could be not. The other thing is, please, please, seek legal counsel and not an ambulance chaser before going to this thing that Bethel has set up where you can call in and quote unquote anonymously and give tips or say I'm a survivor of something.

Listen, I've lived through four internal investigations. Now, the people that go through those end up quadruply wounded. So I can't tell you not to do it because I could get in trouble. But what I would say is please talk to a trusted lawyer before you come forward because I care about survivors coming forward and their stories and them not being re-injured because those usually, those types of things could be places where stories go to die.

That's very good advice. And thanks again so much for doing this and thank you, Brantley, for helping me. This has been interesting, fun, sad and scary all at the same time. So if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.

You can find us at www.William-Branum.org For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle and Audible.

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