The Systemic Cover-Up Behind Modern False Prophecy

Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at William-Branham.org, and with me I have my co-host and friend, Jed Hartley, son of a false prophet and former member of the International House of Prayer. Jed, I am going to heavily, heavily target the son of the false prophet thing in this episode. There's so many things happening. I looked at Mike Winger and he put out all of his stuff on Bethel and it's I think it's step one and in some other things that he has to

come, but it's all about exposing this fakery and and then the problems that come from that fakery because it's not just that there are false prophets and fake, fake nonsense and non-syncical doctrines. It's that many of these people who are in this, they go on because they're fakes and frauds in the first place.

They go on and they do more extreme, horrifically bad things and to a Christian I guess you would say that theology is probably the worst thing, but to those who are in other categories, you look at the predators that have come out of this and it all comes back down to this one central fact that many of the people in this movement just simply aren't what they claim to be and they're fakery.

They're false prophets and they have sons of false prophets such as yourself. Well, and this is I think I may have even talked about it on our last video that we had, but when I was watching Mike Winger's video and just read, I was talking with some people that were on that video and just some people were in the mix of everything that's going on and I constantly was reminded just of how

rotten all of it is from the very root and I use that phrase quite often and the thing that kept coming up with me was this idea, this notion that like I grew up believing we have all sin, we've all fallen short of the glory of God and that was repeated so many times that it was Jesus who redeemed all of us and that we were all kind of in this sense sinners and we are all redeemed by faith and so we are both in the same boats of falling sinners who are all then redeemed.

and there's these two sort of like this sort of transformation and it equalizes everyone within the community and I've been thinking about how intentionally that was really latched onto obviously the Pentecostal new apostolic reformation was not the pioneers of this sort of doctrine that's been a long doctrine of like the American church certainly. But I think what is

becoming very clear is how much these NAR and leaders, IHOP leaders, Bethel leaders, Morningstar leaders, my own father, Sean Bowles, all of these individuals latched onto this idea of what we're all following and in this way of equalizing some of the really predatory sins that we're going on behind the scenes with them to make it seem like well we all have less that we deal with, less of the flesh in some ways, some people crave fatty foods, other individuals do that you know like it's just a way of making it so that everybody felt similar

in in in the dark and I just it is not normal what was going on behind the scenes what probably is still going on behind the seats the deception the corruption the abuse that was going on with my father with Sean Bowles with Mike Bickle with Bill Johnson all of these different and fairly extremely prominent characters the level of the gravity was just not the same it's not it's not we're not all in the same boat we're just not it's the the the sins and and I want to say more than just sitting because I don't want to put it just in a sort of specific Christian context

just from a universal moral perspective just the the gravity and abuse that was being committed again I'm using this past turn or tense but like I think many of this is still going on it's just so profoundly corrupt and it is not you cannot separate the sin from the sinner you can't you cannot separate what was going on in this community from um you can't you can't pull the baby out with the you know from the bath water in this sense like it's all one and the same because it it was intentionally made it this way we'll get into it more but like I think

it's just becoming clearer and clearer that the men who got love fate in this community were men who were entirely corrupt because it was the sort of whole house of cards in which everybody needed to have dirt on other people and they all needed to be aware there needed to have be this sort of mutually assured distraction in order for them to even elevate to a place of prominence within the community. And I think that's why I uniquely was able to see a lot of what was going on behind the scenes because I sort of got grafted into this entire

sort of leadership community just because my dad would tag me along and my dad more than probably any of these individuals had his flaws all on his sleeve. I mean he was very apparently and flawed even even in just a sort of generic character sense and in the way that he presented himself. So I think that he was one of those individuals who became very easily and quickly grafted into the community despite him being a wild card and untrustworthy and all of these different things because he so apparently was not going to betray the trust of these men

because he had so much dirt on himself. Unfortunately he was bringing his son along and I was able to see a lot of these things and I don't know. So I was sort of one of the exceptions to the rule of someone who is not like I was elevated and I was a speaking voice or anything like that but I saw a lot of these behind the scenes meanings that I'm the more I get older and more we talk but I realized I really should not have been privy to these particular things.

You know it's really powerful whenever you look at the victims and then the victims speak out. That's one of the most powerful things and all of this but I think what Mike Winger's video did it showed that there was a systematic cover-up. It wasn't just one or two people there was the system of cover-up and one of the things that we have today that we didn't have in the past we have almost instant access to information but more than that we have instant access to communication.

So when some fraudster does the fraud thing you can usually see it in a YouTube video you can watch it on their sermons that they're publishing on their websites then you've got these people who are analyzing it that they can find the fraud and then put it out on social media so within I don't know 10 minutes if somebody's saying something that's just ridiculous you might have somebody out there who's exposing it whereas back in the 40s and 50s whenever Laterane exploded you really didn't have that you did have people pointing out that the things were wrong but usually the power

of the movie was more powerful of a force than the critics could contain. So even though there were critics out there who were exposing left and right, their voices weren't heard. And that dynamic has shifted and turned upside down.

And you know, you watch what he's presenting and you're overwhelmed. It's just all of this information is leading towards the fact that there is a systematic cover-up. I wish that we had the same level of information from back in the early days of the research because if you read between the lines of everything that are published so far, my research suggests and can never prove because all of these people are dead.

But it suggests that this system of cover-up has evolved over the years and has actually been fine-tuned. It's not that this was some random thing that there were just a couple of people who were doing in their couple bad guys.

Maybe in the bathwater example, it's not even that there's any bathwater. I mean, I hate to say it. But you go back and I've only taken just a few trails of history. You can find them on the website.

Generally, I go back to John Alexander Dowey because he was the biggest fraud, conman, con artist, organized criminal that there was in the religious history in America. Everybody wanted to pattern their ministries after that.

So every fraudulent thing that he did, and I've got them pretty well documented, all of those things were copied, and everybody who copied them knew and they systematically pretended that they didn't know, then they built their empires after Dowey died, many of them doing the same thing.

And so, take, you know, there were hundreds, maybe thousands of these people, but say there's just five. You get five people that emerge from Dowey's empire, and they get together and say, hey, look, we can do the same things.

We can, John Lake is one of the people who helped Dowey with his fraudulent activities and faith healing. You can find that well documented if you search online for John G. Lake conman. You can find this, there's a whole thesis written about this.

He was helping to organize the con that Dowey was doing. Well, if you take that and say there's five people, well, five people are doing it, each of the five know what each other is doing because they're copying the same con.

But they're none of them, even though they may not be aligned in theology, they may even pretend to be enemies. They're not going to out each other because if you out one guy, the other guy is instantly outed, right?

So you could have your mortal enemy who you do not like, who you disagree with this theology, et cetera. And you say, that guy, he's got a real gift, but he's not used by God.

You say stupid stuff like this, right? Knowing that it is a con man. And so then those five train other people, they die out. The five turns into 50, the 50 turns into 500.

It just keeps going and going. And there's a point, which I'll get into this later, but there's a point when there are so many... people who are involved in the con, that they start to believe that the con is actually a good thing.

There's a, there's a Gnostic group that believe that you could tell lies for the sake of a holy end. And Earnas wrote about this, but there are people who actually believe if I can get people's faith high enough, even though it's fraudulent, and get them to believe in what I'm doing, they will, because I'm pretending to be Christian, they will believe in Jesus, and I said pretending very loosely there.

They will see my Christian, my false version of Christianity, and they will come to Jesus, and therefore, if I lie to them and make them calm, am I not doing God's work? That's really the theory behind all of this.

So you have all of these men who are propping each other up, and where it gets really funny, which we'll get into later in the episode, they know all the dirt on each other, and they use it to their advantage.

This thing that you were talking about, when people begin to think of it as like, more than just excuse it, they think that this is actually a good thing to line like, okay, we'll do this deception in Jesus' name sort of saying, I think that I've seen at least be this sort of weird cognitive dissonance issue certainly with my father.

I also believe that I have seen this, I don't know him as well, but just seen the patterns, but with Sean Bowles, I wouldn't be surprised if he had similar thinking, but these men are clearly fabricating prophecy in a way that it's different than like, oh, I think I had this dream and in this dream, I am interpreting it, and I'm not sure if that's God, but like, whatever, I'm just going to sort of delusionaly go into it.

I mean, that's one level of like self deception. The other is when you pull things off of Facebook and you're telling, oh, God gave this to me. I mean, obviously there has to be some level of cognitive dissonance where you know for a fact that you are deceiving this person where you are presenting information that you clearly got through natural means and you're pretending and putting on this sort of performance to make it feel like a religious spectacle or to make it a religious spectacle.

But because there's this sort of like, well, I'm helping people deepen their belief in God and there's this immediate and narcissistic itch that's scratched by doing it where one of the powerful stories and I, she's a good friend of mine and I've been on her podcast before and she was mentioned.

in this Sean Bowles video with Mike Winger, but Jubilee Don's, she was a member at Bethel, and she got a prophecy from Sean Bowles about, well, actually, her then ex, or at the time, her boyfriend, who she then married, and then he was abusive and tried to, or he did strangle her, like it was extremely, an extremely tragic situation with Jubilee, where he was, her boyfriend then husband was abusive, but because she believed in these prophecies, so Sean Bowles gave her these prophecies about them being together, and about the Lord actually giving Jubilee to this man, there was this sort of spiritual authority that rests on their

marriage that made it incredibly hard for her to feel permission to break free of that and to break up with him, or then later divorce him, because she felt like this was sort of this ordained thing from the Lord, but if you back up to when Bowles gives this prophecy, he gives this prophecy about to young people, and he thinks, I mean, he probably doesn't think twice about it, and says, oh, I'm going to anoint their marriage, and this is only going to do good things, because there's this sort of like, well, they're going to be confident that God has

blessed their marriage, and what young couple wouldn't benefit from having this sort of belief that God's going to bless their marriage, and in some instances that probably was, I don't know if fine is the right word, because deception will always lead to corruption, and in any situation, like no solid foundation of a marriage or anything can be built on this shaky, deceptive ground, but I can get from a sort of removed perspective how people like Charm and my dad were able to excuse the things that they were doing because they thought that the tree was producing good fruit, and they refused to see or investigate how it was producing

any bad fruit, because it's only positive testimonies. Only people who come up and say, oh, my goodness, your dad, to people who come up to me, I mean, I only ever heard the positive testimonies.

There are hundreds, if not thousands of negative testimonies, but who's going to say that? Who's going to come up to my dad and tell him, hey, you said this, and it was wrong, you know?

going to go to Sean Bowles and say, hey, you bless this marriage. And then he was abusive. And you're not going to hear about that. And unless it's in a situation like this where Jubilee is speaking up now and really where you're really having to hit the big red button and you're have to talk about corruption systemically within the entire church, you can't really ever express negative testimonies within that community. You can only express positive ones unless you're totally ousted and are on the completely opposite side doing what you and I and Jubilee and Mike are we are doing by exposing the whole thing. So I totally understand

how this system continues to prosper and continues to corrosively build itself around this insidious

exploitation of its people. You know, there's another thing that is pointing out when you read through not only his video, but all of the people who are doing the same thing. We've right now we have, I don't know, how many hundreds of people they're doing the same thing because they're seeing the same thing across all these ministries. One of the things that is pointing out is a different kind of victim that I think often gets missed. You've got, you know, the victims of criminal activities which we've talked about with, you know, Mike, Bickel, etc. The things that are really, really

awful. And yes, those are really awful. But there's another type of victimization that is happening in that these people are systematically rewriting and rewiring what it even means to be a prophet so that they can groom the people to believe that if they come up with a whim and they call it prophecy, it's good. It came from God. And if that whim just happens to be wrong, it doesn't matter because that's the type of prophecy that God gives us. This kind that is flaky. It might be true. It might not be true. And then I can apologize and say, well, I lied. It's not a prophecy. And

it doesn't matter because I was in tune with the prophetic. They've got this weird framework. So what they're doing is they're literally, and I hate to say it, but it seems like it's widespread systematically rewiring the heads to be receptive to this type of idea so that even more of these empires can be built upon that type of framework. Right now, I'm the God of this room. I can tell you, if I were to say to you, Jed, in this corner behind me, there is a ukulele. I'm the God of this room.

I know what's in this room. And you can believe what I say is true because this is my room. Well, these guys who are claiming prophetic, let's clear up the definition of this for those who don't know what a prophet is. A prophet is somebody who steps their mind out of the way.

in God speaks through their mouth. So it's God actually speaking. So if God is speaking and says, there is a, I don't know, there is a big accordion hanging on the wall behind me.

And I say this, well, I'm the God of this room and you believe it. And then I say, oops, I was wrong. It wasn't accordion, it's a ukulele. Well, you're gonna think I'm a fool because I should know what's in my own room.

Yet the people don't look at God this way. God says this thing and then suddenly it's not true. Well, oh my gosh, I got it wrong. I'm sorry, but I was in tune with the prophetic.

What they've done is they have coerced the people to believe this thing about prophets and prophecy that is not real so that they can take it a step further and they can hijack their minds and abuse them for it.

And even further than that, they can abuse their pocketbooks with it. Where it gets interesting, Branum, whenever he was part of the framework which we'll get into that in a minute. When he was laying all of this out, he would combine verses to make new Bible verses that didn't exist.

And one of them, he would say, the Bible says that I was born and sin shaped in an equity come into the world speaking lies. Those are two different verses, one talking about the good people and one talking about the bad people.

Well, he combined them like, I don't know if you remember the Budweiser commercials. I wanna watch Sumo Wrestling. I wanna watch. Let's watch both, right? That's kind of what this is. And then he would proceed to tell all of these lies and then it's okay because he was born and sin shaped in an equity just like the rest of us.

It's okay if he lies. But no, it's not okay if he's claiming that God is speaking through his mouth, thus say at the Lord, God can't be wrong if it's a prophecy. What it ends up is it's not prophecy.

These guys are just pulling things out of their butt. What's interesting is, you know, you could walk into my room. You could obviously deduce that I'm in a musician's room and I've got a bunch of instruments.

And without even looking, you might say, and you, John, you have a guitar. Well, you're doing an odds game, right? A numbers game. A lot of that is what this is. They will say things that may come true, but they're doing this fake thing.

And they don't really know. It's not whenever they say God is speaking through the mouth. If they speak five times, then it's true. And then the sixth time they say something that God didn't say, we have to wonder, is any of it true or are they just pulling it out of their butt?

And I've come to the conclusion that there's a lot of butt-made prophecies.

Well, and I think you addressed something that I've struggled to figure out how to address myself of some of the hidden victims of this group. I think some of the genuine people who could be pastors, who could be ministers, who could be individuals within this area, it's complete.

Lately is completely eliminated the any elevation of the genuine within this community. The anybody who, and I don't want to get into too much of like whether or not I believe in the gifts of spirit or any of things like that, I will tell you just flat out.

I am very skeptical of all of those things, but regardless, I still think that every community births births a wide variety of character in its people, and the community at large has a lot of really genuine, passionate, compassionate people who have all sorts of virtue and are really radically trying to be their best people unto God and unto others, you know, love God, love others, love do unto others that you would have them do unto you, you know, trying to extol the virtues of Christianity. I've seen that within the community very well.

I've not seen it within the leadership, and I think what's happening is because you have these people at the top who need to have dirt on each other, who don't really believe the things that they are saying, and believe in this sort of falsified, manufactured prophecy that is totally excused, you then have individuals who are honest and integrity have no path for any sort of future within this community. They have to leave the community.

I think that that's a great tragedy to these individuals, and also to the community at large, because you're cutting down all of the fruitful trees of the community, because the fruitful trees would show that the rest of the trees are bearing bitter fruit. I think it is fascinating and more than just problematic, depressing is probably the word that I'm thinking of, but that all of these individuals, I mean, certainly for me, it is a very heavy thing to come to terms with the fact that the people who are the leaders of this community don't even believe

the things that they are saying. If you believe in a God who speaks to people, who cares about people, who genuinely is able to give visions and dreams and prophecies to various individuals, I...

It's not these people, like they do not believe that because if they did, they would hold sort of holy reverence for it, you know, they would be the ones who would be protecting this and looking for the wolf among the sheep, you know, they would be looking for the people who are deceiving it because you need to protect, you need to protect that which is holy and not dilute it with that which is manufactured. That's just logically a necessity, you know, if you think that there's going to be gold within it, you have to mine for the gold. You don't just

take the foe's gold and the real gold and plump it all together. That does make any sense, that totally invalidates the genuine and anybody who is within that world and actually cares for the genuine obviously is going to try to protect and preserve it and the fact that these men are not trying to do it is a great indication that they don't believe it. They do not believe, like I genuinely, I'm saying this with, of course I can't know it for sure. I do not think my dad believes that God speaks to people. I do not think Mike Bickel believes that God speaks to

people. I do not think Bill Johnson believes that God speaks to people, not in the way that they pretend it is. They, I think that they may believe some of their, you know, aspects that like there is some sort of thing that they can tap into or they believe they themselves are God, like that they, if they speak, then God makes it happen, sort of like that they,

whatever they say is God ordained just because, you know, so if I find Revelation on Facebook and I speak it out, it's coming from God because I myself am an extension of God. And I really do think that it is that level of self-deception where there isn't this sort of division between them and their deity. They are their deity. Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transition through the latter reign cares Matic and other fringe movements into the new Apostolic Reformation? You can learn this and more on William Brannum Historical Research's website, William-Brannum.org. On the book's page

of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Steven McGummery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book. You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top. And as always, be sure...

to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching. On behalf of William Brannem Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support. So let's talk a bit about Paul Cain.

I believe if I remember the schedule correctly, it comes out right the week before this one, but we received from Mike Winger a transcript of a recording from Paul Cain. I shared it with you.

It's Paul Cain and some various other people. And there are several of these. It's not like there's just one. There exists out in the world somewhere, all of these recordings where men have dirt on other people.

Charles and I walked through how this works in the message because I hate to say it. Many of these things were built on top of William Brannem's message framework and ideology. More than people recognize, more than they realize, and the strategy that was employed is very much the same.

Well Paul Cain was part of the ones who was doing the same kind of strategy. And it created another layer of victim that I don't think, I think Mike Winger actually brought this up, but I don't think it's been hit as hard as it could.

I know he will probably hit it hard in the future, but when these men claim to be prophets, what they do is they try to trick you into believing that they are in tune with God.

They reshape what prophet means in your head so that if whatever they predict is false, it's okay because they're in tune with the quote-unquote prophetic. Then what they also try to do is they try to make themselves at a higher level of human than you are.

You're down here. I'm up here. Therefore, whatever I say, I'm your spiritual authority. I'm your spiritual guideline, your mediator between God and man, whatever you want to call this. Well, the way they do this is they try to trap you in believing that God is actually speaking through them because if they do, Brannum is the one who laid this up perfectly and he got it from Bosworth who got it from Dauy.

This was a Dauyite type of doctrine, but once you have that prophetic authority, then the word of the Lord becomes like a psychological trap. You can't leave because here's where God is. God is in this one.

It's not in the church down the street. If you leave to the church down the street, you're going away from God. Essentially, you become trapped and that is how all of this system of cults has kind of bypassed the public view for so long.

There aren't compounds with walls, with physical walls, Brannum and others. Dauy is just one and a long line of men doing the same thing and women doing the same thing. They identified the fact that if you can make the walls inside somebody's head, there's no way that you can pass any law that makes me a criminal for doing it.

It's their own fault. They could have walked away if they wanted. It's not my fault. And then they tried to claim this prophet card, false prophecies, et cetera, to try to make the people believe that they're God.

One of the... ways that they did this. Charles and I will hopefully hit this in the future, but there were different tricks that they would do as they were, as this faith healing movement was emerging.

I've mentioned with you, Branum used to have this thing where he would hold his hand out and his hand would change colors. And that was diagnosing the disease, right? And it's a trick, you put something under your arm and squeeze in the blood flow to your arm, shuts off.

You can turn your hand purple if you want to. And you would say if it turned purple, God can't heal you, you would say things like this. Well, about the time that the voice of healing magazine got into such incredible publication, they've got mailing list of, I think they said it was hundreds of thousands of people on that mailing list.

So you've got hundreds of thousands of people sending their names and addresses to you. In the front cover, it said send a copy to your friend, recommend that they too. And there would be a form you could fill out, one of the forms and I tried to find it for this video and I'm gonna have to dig.

But one of the forms says is your friend's sick. So you can write down your friend's disease, name, address. Well, then suddenly after all of this happens, suddenly you have this array of profits, not just Branum, but they're all saying, I can tell you your name and your address.

And they're all part of that voice of healing conglomeration. Well, they have a database of names and addresses. Where that comes into full force is, I've had multiple people tell me this, I did not witness it.

But multiple people have said that Paul Cain was caught in a hotel room with stacks of phone books, reading them. Which tells me two things. Number one, this is where he's getting his names and addresses.

Number two, he probably had a photographic memory. Because that's the only reason you would do this, right? So if you came into this movement with a photographic memory, you were one of the, you were one of the top ones, man.

This was a big deal. So Paul Cain elevates himself in this manner and he advertises himself as another William Branum. I have strongly suspected that Branum also had a photographic memory. And he was doing memory memorization techniques.

You can read it all through experiments. So there were these kind of gimmicks that were happening with names and addresses. And it all kind of started right whenever they had a database of names and addresses.

Well, all of the people who are doing the gimmick know how each other are doing the gimmick. They came a point when they were at such odds. They were like almost into a fist fight.

They're revolving around. In fact, Jim Jones mentions it. Branum mentions it happens with Jones in Chicago, I think it was. They all started fighting like 300 ministers, Branum says, were fighting and they were at odds.

And he claimed it was over a specific doctrine. But here's the funny part. They could attack the doctrine and take either, it was a racial issue. They could take either side of the racial issue.

But none of those men could say, and oh, by the way, we're all doing the same. trick because if you expose the guy to the room next to you that that you cannot stand, well, he's going to expose you back. So it turned into this thing where they themselves become trapped.

It's a different kind of trap. Yeah. Well, that continued to evolve and continued to evolve until Kane was one of the smarter ones. He started recording conversations because not only do I have the dirt of knowing how these people are doing what they're doing, I got all the dirt of them admitting it on recording and that we went through the transcripts of one of those recordings. But where it gets really interesting is you know the political nature of some of the sins that are involved in this. Kane, according to that transcript, and I'm sure you've read it, but he did not want his name

to get out tied with homosexuality. Everybody knew that he was, but he did not want it to make out, you know, to get public because he might lose his ministry over that. In the same conversation, they're talking about the fake, the fakery that he was doing and he was a fraud and Chuck Smith called him out for it and Chuck Smith basically, he grilled them like two or three times. Well, what about the fraud and the conversation kept getting redirected to the homosexuality, which was interesting to me because they put more emphasis on that as the bad thing than they did

the fakery and they're all doing the fakery. So when I read that conversation, I was like scratching my head thinking, do they not know that all of it is wrong? They should just confess the whole thing. So also why I harp on so much the prophetic manipulation because it enabled all of the sexual predation. So I mean, and with Kane, because it's so funny because I grew up in this world and Paul Kane was, I didn't, there was only probably four or five instances that I remember being in the same room with Paul Kane where he was preaching and I don't ever remember

talking to him myself with Bob Jones. I remember several times, but with Paul Kane, it wasn't, it wasn't as much, but I do remember, I do remember him talking, but he was more of this sort of legacy figure within the community. And my dad would talk about how he had issues of homosexuality and meanwhile, especially in the 90s, early arts, and I'm sure still today, I mean homosexuality was one of the big things that separated our community from other Christian communities, and obviously other secular communities is that the new apostolic reformation, the the IHOP, the sort of later rate movement was so, it was abortion and

in homosexuality, where the demons that were corrupting America and so are rabid sort of attacking of homosexuality was then put in a weird position against Paul Cain. Now later, as I grew up, the issue of what Paul Cain was doing was about sexual predation.

It wasn't just about homosexuality. It was that he was praying on young men too. It was criminal and abusive activity. It wasn't just sexual immorality. But again, it was framed in this sexual immorality sense. And I think that the reason why Cain probably had this defensive nature is because there was the same sex aspect of what was going on with him, where with all of the other individuals, they were praying on women. So it was Bob Jones. He could get away with what he was doing. Mike Bickle could get away with what he was doing, because

this isn't something that we are rabidly attacking from the pulpit every single week. And so I do, I get why all of the conversations sort of gravitated back towards that, because that was sort of the one sin in the community that was inexcusable, because it had to be. I also know this was similar to something that happened with my dad, because with my dad was young. And this is he, so this is all what I heard from him. I don't know the details of this, but I know that when he was younger, he had a girlfriend. She got pregnant. And I, I, from what I understand is that she went and

gotten abortion. And he was in support of that when he was a young, I think he was even a young Christian. And it wasn't clear whether that happened before or after his sort of salvation story or whatnot. But those are sort of the like unforgivable sins within the community that you wouldn't talk about. And I, it really is, is corrupt how much everything that wasn't those two issues was totally condoned and excusable even today. Now, even now, like I know that Mike Bickle right now has hundreds, if not thousands of people, oh, no, certainly thousands of

people who are brushing off what he did, because, It's in this sort of context of like, well, you know, people cheat on their wives and people cheat on prophecy and people will, you know, young women, she was 14, 15, but whatever, she was still like a young woman, not a girl, just the way that people will keep moving the sort of goalpost of their morality to basically nothing where there just is sort of this completely almost heibnistic zero moral boundary and framework. And then they cling to the one or two things that are outside of their framework, the one or two things, whether it's

abortion or homosexuality or whatever it is. And then they are so rapidly against those things because it's that's how they kind of draw the line. They make it so, so broad and so permissible for everything that's going on within their own lives and within the here, the lives of the heroes around them so that they can be then completely and utterly cruel to people who are homosexuals or, you know, to the LGBTQ community like because this is where they drew those lines. And I think I think it's frankly disgusting. I think it's so corrupt. And I think it's so a produces such bitter

fruit even within people's own lives because there's just zero sense of moral accountability within the community. There's zero sense of virtue within the community because there's just this hatred of everybody who who slips outside of this moral framework that they have sort of arbitrarily drawn and this total acceptance of everybody within it despite horribly horrific things going on within the community. There's a few things that are so obviously corrupt and yet totally condoned in this community is just this delineation of moral line that is drawn that makes it totally acceptable for leaders to groom people to have fraud, to commit all sorts of heinous

acts and it's inexcusable. It is. And you know, the thing that's really being brought out and Winger I think did this very good justice is that there is no accountability. And because of the way that they have systematically organized where they're helping each other do this thing, it's literally a framework to avoid accountability. And we saw that in the tape with Chuck Smith and Paul Cain, right? The accountability, that should have been broadcast.

This guy's a fraud, man. That should have been broadcast. And you can see Cain had enough dirt on Smith that Smith wrote the letter, sent it out, and said, I retract what I said about his homosexuality. And I disagree about a certain doctrine. But where is the fact that there was a fraud in our midst? And he wanted you guys of money. Where's that part? Well, that part was completely omitted because they're all doing the same thing. They all have some sort of a gimmick and they each know what each other's doing. It's like a bunch of magicians. They get on stage.

If a magician is in the crowd, they know what the guy's doing on stage, but they're not going to point it out because then whoever goes to his stage act, they're going to see the same thing. And oh, well, you told me how that worked. Well, that's how this is, man. You've got all of these different stage acts who are in each other's audiences who know exactly what's happening.

You know exactly the tricks they're using. And so what it does, it makes a movement that's just completely devoid of accountability. Totally. And again, it goes back to makes a community that only the corrupt lead to or come to power. I remember talking with Julie a long time ago about this where she was like, do you think that everyone's bad in this world? And I was like, well, not not everyone, but certainly everyone who's a leader. And I know that that's like a that's a very hard line to hold. But the more and more we go through this, the more I see these

transcripts, the more I listen to, you know, testimonies of people who are abused by shambles and by all of these different individuals, the more and more, I shouldn't be shocked anymore. But I watched that. I was listening to Mike Winger's video. And I knew most of the things that were going to come up in that video because I've been talking to some of the same victims.

And yet still, I was shocked. I was shocked by the level of depravity. We kind of didn't address it, but just to just to re-address what was going on. It wasn't just fraud. There were shambles. It was also had a habitual routine of sexually abusing his staff members as he would constantly undress in front of them and pleasure himself in front of them. And this is very talked about in way more detail in that video. And perhaps maybe we'll get into this at some point. But just the broad strokes of it is that he was also doing this very predatory,

sexual immorality, and using his sort of authority to do so, he would sort of use spiritual language and his spiritual authority to sort of condone and put in his staff members in their place when they would try to speak out against him or anything like that, which caused.

Despite the fact that this was, so several of those victims then went forward, and this was known about Sean Bulls for, I think it was like almost a decade or for at least five, six, seven years, this information was like very well known within the leadership, there's in my Gwyners video, there's a clip, an audio clip of several different people, a Stacey Campbell, Patricia King, Cheon, Chris Files, and I think we're all in this phone call where they were talking explicitly about the things that I just told you, and yet he's continued to be platformed, he continued to

Bulls continued to minister and speak, and it showed what Bulls was saying to his staff members was like fall in line to, as I say, like I can do this and don't be prudent about it, like I can do what I want, and he was right, in some respect he was right, like the community, the leadership, he knew the leadership wasn't going to do anything about it, I mean maybe there was going to be some consequences, maybe he wasn't going to be able to speak at this conference or that conference, but he wasn't going to be publicly, there wasn't going to be anything, in fact I wonder if that

actually helped his bid for prominence in the community, because now in this sort of way that we have dirt on each other, now it's like well I can get him, if the more I leverage him, like Bill Johnson after this, Bill Johnson goes on and publicly supports Sean Bulls, even makes a statement about how he's one of the most prophetic individuals of our times, and gives a forward on his book, because if Bill Johnson honors this man, like there's no way that Bulls is ever going to betray Bill Johnson, because now Bill Johnson has absorbed and been like has seen this very like

sort of fathering like oh you come to me broken, I will protect you, and I saw I saw Bill Johnson do this with my dad, it's like come you we can broken and I will help heal you, and he almost invited and was excited, like I don't think that it is a coincidence, that two of the major prophetic voices that Bill Johnson has lashed himself to, at least that I know of what he's spoken about in close doors and publicly, like the three prophets that he endorsed and most used for his own personal sort of political and church movements, like in so far as him

saying, this is the course of where we're heading as a church. He used my dad. So Bob Hartley, Bob Jones and Sean Bulls, these were the major prophets that Bill Johnson were using. What's the, what is the linking aspect of all three of those individuals? One, they all have very obvious mental illness.

They all are very obviously broken. Not even, you don't even have to hear the stories behind them, them just speaking up front. Not even in a insidious way, just in a, you can tell, I mean, Bulls is maybe a little bit more put together than my dad or Bob Jones was, but they're sort of the madman aspect of it. They all were pretty obviously and apparently fraudulent and were using fraudulent information to fuel their prophecy. And they all were really explicitly abusing, sexually abusing the other individuals. And Bill Johnson knew about this, both before, during and after, you know, like in, he platformed them before, he knew about it during

when he knew about it and then after. And I don't think that it's a coincidence. I think that he'd like springing in these, these broken, corrupt, horrible individuals because then he can sort of control them and he can control the narrative. And I saw this firsthand. We're going long now. So sorry about this, John, but this is my last thought, but I saw this happen firsthand is when my dad and I in 2023, we went, I know I've told this story before, but we went to Bethel. And this was before I knew about all of the, the sexual abuse that was going on that my dad had perpetuated,

but Bill Johnson certainly knew about it. And my dad goes into that meeting desperate, just absolutely desperate to prove himself to Bill Johnson. He would say anything that he could to show and get Bill Johnson to sort of bless him again and to allow him sort of back into the fold because he is right there on the outskirts of the community because he has clearly done some horrific sexual abuse.

abuse. And Bill Johnson knows about it. And in this meeting, my dad gives Bill exactly what Bill wants, which Bill had just his wife had died the year before. Bill had started dating a younger woman who he had known for a very long period of time. And by a younger woman, I think there was like 20, 30 years in between Bill and this woman. So she was in her 40s, I believe. But people were really, people within the community were like this feels iffy with, you know, you've been he just passed away and you're already dating

this young woman. And my dad comes in and gives prophetic permission for Bill to be with this woman. And clearly he pretends like he got it from God that he had no idea. There was just an email, a wide email that was released the morning before about Bill dating this woman. So like, it's common knowledge. If you're within the Bethel community, which my dad has obviously plugged into the Bethel community. And so my dad says that he had this dream. And it's like he just got the email this morning. Like I literally saw it happen. I talked with my dad about the email before he gave the prophecy is quite clearly

obvious. What is going on? You need no level of discernment. And Bill Johnson is not an idiot. He's not, he obviously could know that my dad is manufacturing this. But this is what Bill wants. Bill wants someone to come in and give him prophetic, you know, permission to do the thing that he wants to do. And then he can kind of annoy to my dad and make him into this mythical individual behind the scenes. It's perfect for him. And I know now that that's what he was doing. I didn't know this at the time. I thought Bill was mad at my

dad when this happened. Like when I was in this meeting, I was embarrassed for my father. I was like, Oh my goodness. This is quite clearly so obvious what you're trying to do. You're trying to offer him something in this deceptive way. Like clearly Bill is going to see through this. I thought Bill was annoyed with him during that meeting. But then turns out, I'm now hearing, I've heard from several different accounts that Bill was going around and telling people that he had been given prophetic permission from one of the grand prophets that he, you know, God has ordained this union between him and this woman. And of course,

they then broke up because I don't know more details of that. But of course, it wasn't God ordained because this is all fabricated anyway. So I know people... people have felt like, well, why is Bill getting involved with this?

He hasn't done these things. He is not innocent throughout all of this. And he has built it sort of similar to the way that Paul came to it. He absorbs the broken individuals around him because he can manipulate them.

The leaders that are doing this, that's an inherent evil that they're doing. Yeah. And they're doing it at the risk of just totally destroying lives. That's really the problem of all of this. So I wish that I could put a stop to it, and there just simply isn't a way.

And no matter how many podcasts you and I do that expose it, no matter how many Mike Winger does, there's going to be somebody who can push it forward because they've created this platform with rewired the heads to believe that this thing is prophecy so that the leaders can step up and hijack their minds.

That's the cycle that will continue. Everyone who eats of the bitter fruit gets sick. Everyone gets poisoned from this. No one is getting out of this, OK? No one is getting any sustenance from this corrupt and abuse system.

And that's why when I am so passionate about tearing this system down, people will say, can't throw the baby out with a bath water. It's all sickness. It's all corrupt. Throwing this out is only going to benefit me.

Literally every single person involved in this community, even the leaders there, because you can't. You can't. That's just the nature of the world that we live in. You cannot give yourself over to vices and expect flourishing within your own life.

It corrupts. It pulls you apart. You know, I spent a large part of my childhood in Georgia. We would be out and we would play in the ground. And the ground is red clay.

And when you get this stuff on, you it's this thick muck that just doesn't come on. And I can assure you that there are some bath waters that you do need to let out and get some bath water to finish cleaning the baby.

So thank you for doing this. Hopefully people will flush out that nasty bath water and get something better. Yeah, absolutely. Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.

You can find us at William-Branum.org. For more about the dark side of the new Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR, available in Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

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