Dual Atonement and Cult Psychology: How Followers Burrow Deeper When It Breaks

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Lujan Branham Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at William-branham.org, and with me I have my co-host, researcher, minister, and friend, Channel Ross, pastor and the voice of the understanding scripture and truth by Channel D Ross YouTube channel. Channel it's good to be back and to talk through the last moments of Hobart Freeman's life. I think this gives a special insight to people who are in a group like this. They build up to this expectation that the leaders going to

carry them through to the other side. Well, what happens when the leader doesn't? And that's really where this gets... it's all too familiar for me. I think I think back to the Branham religion. The moment's leading up to his death, I'm sure certain the people thought, well, oh my gosh, what's going to happen? All of the things that were prophesied that we would be part of is all of that in question now. Do I question the whole thing? So there had to be this moment in time where everybody's just re-evaluating what it is they believe and what they were

told. And then as we'll get into in future podcasts, this takes a whole new direction when people kind of bury deeper after the event happens. So we'll get into that. But right now this is a this is a critical snapshot in time for a cult who is a... I don't know if you would frame it like this, but in my opinion it was a Doomsday cult. They were building up to the Doomsday. B, they were a divine healing cult, much like what I came out of. In fact, they were if you look at the threads of history, they were an extension of it. So a Doomsday cult that

implodes from a leader who's dying of an illness that was not cured from a divine healing makes this a all-to-unusual scenario. And with that, I'll let you take it off. Well, I totally agree on both of those analogies, a Doomsday cult and a divine healing cult. John, it was a Doomsday cult in the sense that if you listen to the last few months of Dr. Freeman's preaching, especially in a series on Exodus, he was preparing the people for the worst. He was expecting faith assembly to be delivered from the jaws of the media and legal and medical world just as the children of Israel had been

delivered from each other. in the book of Exodus. He did see himself as a second Moses. He made all the analogies and comparisons of how Moses had been trained in all the wisdom of Egypt so that he could be that person who would eventually be sent by God back down there to Egypt, to the courts of Pharaoh, to deliver the Israelites from the Egyptians. And he saw in his mind similar parallels how God had taken him through southern Baptist seminary, gray seminary, prepared him and all the wisdom of the denominational world so that he could be the Moses to lead them out of that. And I have to say from my

own perspective that I was not, I guess, their terminology there would be, I was not in fellowship with Faith Assembly in 1984. I had written some letters asking Hobart about some of the issues happening at Faith Assembly so I was on the outside. So I was not a part emotionally of the summer and the fall of 1984 that led up to his deaths. So for instance, we talked last time and we'll talk some more today about the serious problems he had with both of his feet, especially his left foot, the one that had been damaged in an automobile accident where a big factory truck had run over him

when he was 13 years old and had just crushed the leg, the foot, and he had lifelong permanent damage as a result of that. And consequently, you know, a wound a sore had opened up there and he was not able to stand up as he had in the past and preach. So I wasn't aware of any of that.

You've got to keep in mind in that if you were part of Faith Assembly and you were there in the main building or if you were a member in good standing at one of the satellite churches, you had also kind of inside information. You not only were on what they call the automatics and what that was. Dr. Freeman's tapes were automatically mailed out if you signed up to get on the automatics and you got those the latest tapes on a regular basis.

You also had friends and contacts there at the mother church so you could find out what was being said and done and what things looked like before and after a service. The tapes just had Dr. Freeman's message. You couldn't get a feel for everything else unless you were there unless you had a friend and I was not privy to any of that. All of my information was was going to come later and was going to come secondhand because I was not a member there. Hobart's preaching schedule over the years is had evolved in that's something I want to talk about to begin with and it's true for any minister. When I was a young

minister, I had appeared in my life where I think I told during the day, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, maybe Thursday, maybe Friday, I'm sure Saturday and definitely Sunday. That little flurry of activity didn't last long but when you're newer in the ministry, you do preach a whole lot and as Dr. Freeman got older and I'm not faulting him for this, I think a lot of ministers do this, you've preached for years, you've preached for decades, so you evolved into an easier schedule.

So his schedule by the end of his life was he preached on Sunday evening and he preached on Wednesday evening. You would think Sunday morning because that's the main church service but Hobart was not a morning person. He liked to stay up to one or two a.m. and then sleep in late.

He was just not a morning person and he let that be known on a lot of different messages. So at the end of his life, he was only responsible for Sunday evening and Wednesday evening.

Another routine that he had later in his life was that he would take a month off from preaching. He had preached 11 months and he would take a month off. And again, I'm just documenting what the facts were. I don't have any criticism of that.

It's a seminary professors will or college professors will teach for seven years and then take us sabbatical because you need to recharge, do have time to do research, get things fresh again in your mind before you resume teaching. So it was his habit to take a month off in the fall.

Earlier in his life, because he had lived, he had moved from Kentucky to Tampa and then had moved from Tampa to St. Petersburg, Florida. He had a connection to Florida. He liked the weather who wouldn't. It's pretty and warm down there most of the time. And so earlier in his ministry, when he would take that month off, he would often travel down to Florida.

The last year that he did his regular monthly seminars was 1976. And that's how I first heard of Hobart Freeman. He came to Memphis in the spring of 1976. And each month, except the month, he would take off. He would go to Lafayette, Louisiana, Albuquerque, New Mexico, Knoxville, Tennessee, Milton, Florida was one of the places he would go, which is not far from Pensacola.

It's up in the Panhandle. So earlier in his ministry, he would take his month off and they would go to Florida. But in... later years, they like to go out west. So they would get in their little recreational vehicle, and they would, you know, just drive out to places like Colorado. But in 1984, he's also going to have his month vacation, but is coming a lot later in the year than it normally did. I mean, this church was in northern Indiana. So when you want to take a month off, you don't want to do it in November and December, January, when cold weather and snow are going to arrive, you're

definitely going to do it in September or preferably October. And that was his normal routine. But 1984, he did not get that month off. We've got to remind ourselves of the last year, worth of podcast, Sean, and of all the things that were beginning to happen in 1984 for Dr. Freeman.

In February of that year, he was served these papers. He says on a message entitled avoiding an unsettled mind, I think part two, he had 104 page document. He had gotten from the court of a civil lawsuit. And we documented all this many, many podcasts to go. You know, people will have to go back and find that. But a couple in Illinois had hired a Michigan attorney, and they were after not criminal proceedings, but civil proceedings in Dr. Freeman's life to uncover how much money he was worth and to see if they could sue him for some of that money.

There also were just numerous deaths that were happening all during the spring and summer and early fall, either at faith assembly or in one of her satellite churches. Indiana had passed new law, so because people were continuing to die, now the court system, the legal system could go after them, and they definitely did that. So in addition to the deaths, now you have all of these trials where these different families, such as David and Kathleen Bergman and Gary and Margaret Hall, were being arrested and charged and convicted and sentenced and Gary Hall actually ends up going

to prison as one of the members of faith assembly who had had a person in his home die. So as a consequence of that, you have a swarming media. The media is just all over the place trying to get to the bottom of the situation. Also that fall, the, what whom I would call the air apparent to the pulpit at faith assembly, Dr. Freeman's son-in-law, Bruce Kenzie, up and quit the sect.

Bruce wrote me a- better, and said, I'm leaving because of, and he gave the list that we've talked about before, women can't wear pants, and you can't watch, and own TVs, no hunting is allowed in the church, no medicine, no certain athletic shoes, no prostitute, purses, and so forth.

And then finally, the two things that really came to bear on Dr. Freeman in the fall of 1984 were, first of all, a criminal indictment. And that had to do with the death of a 15-year-old girl, Pamela Meeney, who had died of a kidney disease. Left untreated, her parents were members of the church, and they were following Dr. Freeman's teaching of no medicine. Jesus is your doctor. If you go to the medical field, you're leaning to the arm of the flesh, and you'll put God's curse upon you. And so consequently, a grand jury had been convened, and Dr. Freeman had

been indicted. Again, John, we've talked about all of this in much detail earlier. People can research that on the earlier podcast, but he received the summons on October the 17th of 1984, which was a Wednesday. He preached that night, by the way, and then he was to report to court and jail the next morning, the morning of Thursday, October the 18th, which he did. He was arrested, fingerprinted, booked in Caziasco County, jail, photographed, obviously weighed. All of this, the weighing part will come into importance in our discussion here in upcoming weeks. And he also went before the judge. The judge is trying to determine the validity of the claims of the

indictment. He asked Dr. Freeman about his teaching on divine healing, what he taught. And again, this is all public knowledge that is available in the reports that when he asked Dr. Freeman, did he teach his church members not that they could not go to the doctors? He said, no, he didn't teach that. He said, what he taught was that healing was in the atonement. And if they would pray, they could be healed. And it was his own private position that medical science was not the root he was going to take, but he did not teach that to the church. And of course, we provided many

clips and excerpts from tapes to show that was a false statement. He made to the judge. He most definitely warned everyone against going to doctors. He said, God will lower the boom on you in one of his messages. One of his messages.

other one, he said, you just have no place here in faith assembly, if you can't trust the Lord for your healing. And then the second of these big issues, hitting Dr. Freeman at this time in 1984, were his own personal health issues.

Those were simply becoming enormous. So I say all that, John, to say this, consequently, that's why you have this message that he preached in two parts, part one on October the 17th and part two, a week later, a Wednesday night, October the 24th, entitled comfort for troubled times.

Now he says that, oh, the Lord had already given me this before I got the indictment, just so you know, the Lord had already given me this message, well, whether that's true or not, I don't know.

But he clearly was talking to himself and preaching these messages. And it was from Romans 8 and he just kind of works his way through Romans 8. Again, the title of the message was comfort for troubled times and just look at the trouble that he was experiencing personally.

So these messages, which are available online, are pretty fascinating to listen to. I would recommend anyone who's curious to hear a couple of the last sermons of Hobart Freeman's life to look those up and hear them.

On one of them, I think the first one, you'll hear the ban against hunting. No hunting is allowed. And that caused all kinds of problems. You'll hear and we played that quote before. There's no sense in doing it again, but he gets himself into a little trouble as he's talking about overcomers are not going to have anything to do with weapons of death or hurting or harming God's creation.

I think then to his mind comes the story of Jesus and the apostles fishing after the resurrection. So he says, now I'm not saying you can't go fishing to catch fish. You'll just have to work all that out in your own mind.

And I thought, how convenient that you want us to take your responsibility for your confusion. I think the confusion might have hit him as he was saying that, but be that as it may.

What's the difference between catching a fish throwing it in the bottom of the boat and watching it starve to death for lack of oxygen in the water and going out and shooting a squirrel?

Anyway, that was something that came out on these messages as well as you will hear him saying, look, the reason I'm leaning on the pulpit in case any of you wonder, I'm not nervous, but I have to stay off of that other foot because it has a big hole in it.

And I think the end of the quote, John goes something like this and I don't even have it in front of me, but I've heard. this enough that I'm aware of it, something it goes something like this, but I was healed at Calvary 2000 years ago, so I have no problem. So that's the context of this last fall of Dr. Freeman's life before he is getting ready to be gone from the pulpit for a month.

And for me, for a divine healer to stand up behind the pulpit and say, I've got a hole in my foot while you can be healed of anything, just ask me, it would be like taking your car to a mechanic and the mechanic says, sure, bring your car, but the one that just drove off of here, it blew up before it got out of the, onto the freeway. I mean, that's exactly what this is. And you look back through history and you just see example after example.

I've mentioned them and I won't go deep into the names, but William Brannum, the biggest one for me, the biggest real exposure to this is before the recorded history. He has this booming faith healing ministry. He documents this in one of his publications that just completely crashes. But he doesn't mention why it crashes. He just says, I went off the field for four or five years. And then later he comes back, he reinvents himself, new stage persona, et cetera.

Well, what happened? His wife died. His wife died of tuberculosis. And to a faith healer, that's a big deal. Well, picture Hobart Freeman, to a faith healer who has a hole in his foot, that's a big deal. But I'm thinking more as you're talking about the, the destructive nature of a doomsday cult during this time, you've got the walls are closing in on them. You've got the hole in the foot, obviously, but you've got the legal issues. You have all of these things that are building up weights where if you listen to the recordings, he is clearly upset.

He's emotionally unstable. You can hear it in his voice. Well, to a doomsday cult, when they sense that the leader is unstable, and they have, they have given everything to this movement. There's part of them that just wants to leave. And wordly, you can tell that some of the people just want to, but they can't, and they're trapped. And leading up to this, I'm sure Hobart Freeman did, if I were to examine the sermons, I know all of the other doomsday cults do. When it gets to the point where they sense that something's going to happen that might put their leadership in

question, they start introducing the notion that the walls will close in in our doctrine. So the doctrine starts to take shape that before we leave, you'll see in in Brannemism, we called it the squeeze. You'll see the squeeze happen. The government will come in. There's different phrases that they use, but they all use this. And what it does, psychologically, for the leader, it prepares them for an escape route.

should something go wrong with everything that they're saying, but to the person who's trapped on the inside in the rank and file, they look at this like, oh, well, we're expecting something bad to happen. It's going to challenge our faith. I think that's the big thing. So what happens is they burrow deeper and deeper into it, even though they see the walls are closing in on them, and the walls are crumbling in this case. Well, they bury themselves deeper into it because they have been manipulated through that dequeous doctrine or however it's called and Hobart Freeman's

call. And I'm sure John that that's true for the people listening to this podcast who were a part of Faith Assembly. You know, I didn't experience it only because I wasn't there, and I didn't, I didn't feel this was after the fact when I was able to hear the messages. You know, no one, I was not allowed to be sent any of those messages that were happening during that fall and winter of 84. So I'm hearing this afterwards, but had I heard that live, you know, in the moment as as it was going down, then yeah, I'm sure that's exactly what everyone is feeling. And you can

listen to the Exodus series. I mean, the Exodus series, which I think is only nine tapes, you know, he just got through. I don't know 10 or 12 or 14 chapters. And as I've said about Dr.

Freeman all the time, and this is the honest truth. He was never interested in teaching the people. So they understood the historical second book of the Pentateuch, the book of Moses Exodus. That was not his concern or interest at all. And that just can't be gained said. If you listen to the messages, he is looking for Faith Assembly in Exodus 1 to 14. And he's looking for himself. And in those messages, he talks so much about the the world is closing in, you know, the authorities and the media. Now they're writing laws against us. You know, the state legislature has convened just

because of us. That's how important we are. And they're they are crafting laws directed specifically against us because we're God's chosen people. We're God's faithful people. We're the only true church. I'm the only true minister 100% a doomsday called. And 100% psychologically manipulating the people's minds into this us against them mentality. So he does take this month off. It's just a little unusual because it's later in the year. But people who are at Faith Assembly should still have been suspicious because they've seen him leaning on the pulpit. They've seen him sitting in a chair because he couldn't stand up anymore to preach.

they've heard his constant references to the whole in his foot. And I would not blame a normal person, John, or a normal minister to reference a cold, a flu, my foot hurts, my back hurts, my dog god, my wife is ill, whatever, because those are normal experiences human beings go through, and it's okay to talk about them. However, he put himself in a different category. He was healed at Calvary. He said, I was healed 2000 years ago.

Okay, if you were, then you don't have a hole in your foot. I mean, by your own teaching, you don't have, that's a lying symptom, by your own teaching. So I would have to definitely fault him for constantly referencing the hole in this foot. And look, people say, Cheno, don't be so insensitive. The man was in a lot of pain. I realized that. And I think that's terrible and horrible. And that's probably why he did mention the hole in his foot. He needed some sympathy from people. We all need sympathy from people who are not feeling well. But you have taught such a message

that you have put yourself in a corner where you don't get sympathy because you're not sick. You don't have a heart condition. You don't have deformed feet. You don't have a hole in your foot. You don't have any of that. According to you, you've been healed. So people, when they saw him take a month off, they should have been suspicious. I think there's more going on here than meets the eye. But look, they also had this accompanying view of positive thinking and confession. I mean, what a trap these people are in. The man is leaning. He's got a hole on

his foot in his ankle and in his foot. One of the medical reports actually said it was necrosis, caused by gangrene that had gone up three inches up his ankle. Necrosis, this is irreversible. This is dead, destroyed, wasted. This skin, muscle tissue is gone. It just doesn't exist. That's what gangrene necrosis is. But he doesn't have it because of positive thinking and confession.

What are you supposed to do if you are his wife and you are soaking and dressing that? You're soaking and dressing something that isn't there, isn't that a normal, perfectly like baby's flesh ankle? Yeah, that's the problem, John. That is the serious problem of this positive thinking and confession. That prevents people from even going down the path of addressing the reality of what poor Dr. Freeman was experiencing, and as I say, those closest to him, his wife, his daughters, his age, the higher up in the pecking order of the ministry there, they would know what this man

was going through. The congregation had a feel for it, but you know, it'd be interesting to poll, John, all the people out there, I think there probably were around 2000 at that time. Parenthetically, I did have a conversation back in 2023, so that's just two and a half years ago with Jeff Barnett, who was one of the main top dog ministers there. I was a phone conversation that Jeff and I had, and Jeff said, by that time, he said the attendance Cheno had been around 2400, but it was probably down to around 2000. There's 400 people that had looked at the

Doomsday call walls, closing in around them, and for one reason or the other, but that's probably the main reason, had decided they were going to leave. But I have to put, even though I understand this is family. This is a dear wife to whom you've been married. I guess that would be 42 years.

I believe Hobart and June had been married. Yeah, they married in 1942 when Hobart was 22, and when June was 20, and we're talking about 1984. This is a long-term marriage. He's got three daughters. He has sons and lawyers, grandchildren. I understand, for sure, the human side of all of this, and we'll talk more about that here in a moment too, and how terrible that would have been for them. But here is the problem with positive thinking and confession, where you think and you confess that what I see is not a reality. I don't have a heart condition. I don't have a headache.

I've got 2020 vision. I don't have a hole in my foot. My youth is renewed like the Eagles. Psalm 103, one to five. He said, he quotes sad every morning. He quotes Psalm 91. No evil will ever befall me. No plague will ever come down my dwelling. Then what are we supposed to do with the facts? What are we supposed to do with the facts? They had been so trained and so manipulated as to look at those things because Hobart had said this and call them lying vanities or call them lying symptoms. The poor people were up a creek without a paddle and there's just nothing they

could do. That's the other thing that really bothers me about all of this. Whenever I think through this event, as it's building up to climax, which would be his death. I feel sorry for everybody involved. I feel sorry for Hubert Freeman because he is truly suffering in ways that I don't think even his congregation really understood both psychologically and physically he is suffering. The rank and foul members, they're suffering because they don't really know what's next. There's this unknown. If he, if something happens and he goes to prison, well, what, how does that affect us? What will we do when our leaders in prison? But take it a step further.

Think about the positive confession. You had this notion that FF Bosworth trained Brannum, Bosworth learned it from Dowie and others. There's this idea that there was this dual atonement. Salvation included Jesus dying for your sins, but it also included healing and they're one in the same. It's in the same bundle. So now you have a faith healer who is the central figure of the cult, who clearly is not being healed. He's got a hole in his foot. Well, now the question to in the back of the heads of the listener who has been trained with his dual atonement, they have to wonder, well, is he saved? Because

he has told us over and over and over again, salvation comes with healing. If he's not healed, is he saved? Is he preaching to us unsaved? I mean, all of those questions are forming in the back of their minds. However, whenever you're in a destructive cult, the cult identity suppresses the authentic self. So inside you, all of those questions are being pushed down. And as we'll get into in some of the aftermath of all of this, afterwards, whenever all of this happens, that's when the question's really surface. And people have to make an act of decision. Do I suppress the questions? Was he really unsaved? Because salvation

and healing are the same? And sadly, as we know, I mean, the cult still exists today, there were people that chose to suppress those questions and continue. Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started, or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism, transition through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation? You can learn this and more on William Brandham Historical Research's website, William-Branham.org. On the book's page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.

You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top, and as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching. On behalf of William-Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.

Another thing I have realized, I don't think I realized it back in those days, but I've definitely realized it as I aged as I got older. When Hobart was teaching the preaching from the prophets, which was a series, quote unquote, on Jeremiah, it was really just to talk normal faith assembly, pet peeve doctrine. And when he was teaching exhortations from Exodus, Hobart was living in his own little, I hate to say it, but his own little make-believe world.

He never went anywhere John. He went from his study to church twice a week and back home to his study where he lived. And he was ill-prepared to deal with the power of the United States government.

But on his messages, you could see how out of touch he was with reality. If they try to arrest me, you know, I'll just preach in jail. He didn't understand what jail was. He doesn't understand.

These are real concrete bars. These are real walls. And the court system, these are real judges who are elected officials and who have power and authority. And I'm sure Dr. Freeman was not living in reality. He would probably have thought, well, you know, if God doesn't just deliver me in front of the judge, you know, by sending a chariot of horses and angels right out of heaven to rescue me. And I end up in prison. Surely, you know, I've read the book of acts.

And, you know, the angel of God just in Acts 12 just came and released the Apostle Peter in a miraculous way. And he was able to go on his way. I guarantee you, those were the thoughts of Dr. Freeman because he was not living in reality. Peter got released because Peter wasn't going around killing people with his false message of healing and positive thinking and confession.

And Paul and Silas got released in Acts 16 because they were truly healing people. I don't find any of those guys saying, well, I prayed for you. But the reason you haven't received your manifestation yet is, you know, fill in the blank 25 words or less. No, when they laid hands on people, they were healed when Paul told that demon to come out of the young lady in Acts 16 and Philippi, the spirit of divination, when he said, come out, the demon came out. He didn't have any choice. He came out. When Dr. Freeman prayed all these prayers, oh, now you take it by faith

and go and await your manifestation. And if your manifestation never comes, and of course always it's your fault. Well, you must have sin and confess sin in your life. Isn't it interesting that none of the apostles ever come along and say now the reason you didn't get healed is you had unconfessed sin in your life. So Dr. Freeman was just living in a make-believe world that he had created in his own mind. Didn't understand what was going on. So let's come to this last week, John, of the week of beginning with December the 2nd 1984, which is a Sunday. Dr. Freeman had been away from the church for several weeks

and you know you could say on the outside if you're if you were a peripheral member and who did not know what's going on. Well you know he always took a week off. So this is just his week off. Again I say I think everyone knew and they were suspicious because of the public announcements about the hole in his left foot. If they had any doubt on December the 2nd those doubts were erased because the entire church was asked to pray for their pastor because he was seriously seriously ill. Well you can't be seriously seriously ill if you were healed at Calvary

2000 years ago. And I'm just going to continue to repeat that because there's some kind of disconnect. There's something wrong. There's something wrong in someone's doctrine to say I was healed 2000 years ago but I'm so seriously ill I need the church to pray for me. There's something wrong with that. Something needs to change. Either your experience needs to change and you need to be healed and then you can go see I was healed or you have to change your doctrine because your doctrine does not line up with Scripture and of course I would vote for the 2nd. I wish everyone were

healed when they were praying then we wouldn't be having these podcasts but that's not those aren't the facts so we are. They were not only asked to pray for their pastor they were asked to go on a three day fast from Sunday to the Wednesday night service in the middle of that week.

The church had never been asked to do anything like that before. Maybe a day fast as a group but a three day fast for all of the membership that's a pretty big deal. And I don't know that people have thought of it like this Sean but I have thought of it as I have watched other people under Freeman's ministry. Freeman himself included who have claimed their healing, confessed it, broadcast it to everyone and yet they aren't healed and in the process of this claiming and confessing they have rejected all medicine, all medical science, all medical help that if you're

an adult, if you're an adult that's your prerogative that's your right to do that. However if you do that Then I don't think the burden of your care should be on any other people.

You have professional people available for your care, and that's called medical doctor. Those are health professionals who are trained, who actually can help you. If you choose not to use them and you continue to profess and confess that you were healed at Calvary 2000 years ago, then you're healed.

It's as simple as that. That should be the fact of the matter, and you shouldn't be placing this burden of your health care on people around you. Now, of course, the people around you, your wife, your children love you, and I understand they love you, and they're going to help you.

I'm trying to point out just the stark reality of the situation that if you want to, let's say, for instance, you want to claim healing for your bad vision, and you can't see well enough to pass the driver's test.

Consequently, you would have to wear glasses to drive, but you refuse to do that because you were healed at Calvary 2000 years ago. You have every right if you're an adult to go down that path.

However, it's no one's responsibility to drive you around. You can't burden other people. You can't make them a victim of your lack of manifestation. That's all on you. If you've taken that upon yourself to believe this weird and crazy doctrine, believe I have received and wait a month, a moment, a millennium for my manifestation, then that's all on you.

Another point I would make here is, I'm sure I know, I mean, it's a fact there had been many, many members of Faith Assembly John who had been sick and who had died. I doubt Hobart Freeman had ever gone on a three day fast for any of them.

I don't know that. I can't prove that. That would be my guess because had he done that, he would have never gotten to eat the last year or two. He had that many people seriously ill and sick and then dying.

So surely people can see where I'm going with this. How is it right, although I understand the human side of it, our pastor is terribly ill. We're going to fast and pray for him for three days, but how is that right?

How is that right to require the members of the church who are mothers raising children in homeschooling them and fathers getting up and going to work? You're asking them as a church body to go without food for three days.

That's hard. I know I don't like to go without food for one day, let alone three days. I'm sure many people, John, were willing to do it and happy to do it. And I understand that.

That's your pastor. And you don't understand the nature of this terribly destructive, manipulative, religious cult that you're in. So I understand when you don't see that, then you're just looking at, this is my pastor, and I love my pastor, and he's taught me faithfully in their opinion and their mind all these years.

And so, yes, I want to fast and pray for him, but I'm just asking in hindsight, and it should have been thought of at that moment, how is it right for the burden of going without food for three days to be placed on the people when, over our teal, he says in that message comfort for troubled times, he said, I have no problem.

I was healed two thousand years ago, I have no problem. If you don't have a problem, there's no need to fast for three days. And if everyone is willing to fast for Hobart, then I just have to wonder was he willing to fast for all the people who had been sick and who had died terrible deaths under his ministry, two other stories, and I'll shut up for a moment here.

And I'm sure there are so many more, John, but two ladies over the last couple of years who have followed the podcast, who were a part of this whole dreadful last month and now last week experience of faith assembly, as we knew it with Dr. Freeman at the helm, the leader behind the pulpit, one of the young ladies said that when she heard this no food for three days, she was a young adult and she was taking a trip to Florida with some girlfriends.

I think I don't know. There were four or five of them, their late teens, early 20s, I don't know their age. And so she tells in her correspondence to me just very, you know, you can't help but laugh at these stories.

You've got these young girls who are down in Florida, you know, probably just trying to relax and get away from Northern Indiana cold and snow and we're so excited. We're going to Florida and there's all kinds of delicious seafood down there and oh no, we have to go on a fast.

So I think the way she told me the story and please forgive me, dear, if I don't have all of these details right because this was a long time ago and I've been told so many different stories, but I think it only lasted for so long.

And then they had some of the little, I don't know, Vienna sausages and a can, they just couldn't last any longer and they had to pop that can open and woof those things down and I don't know that they made it all the way through their three day fast.

And then the second story. is similar and also humorous, but also tragic. This woman, who's an adult now, was only 12 years old at the time, and she had younger siblings. And of course, her parents are going to be involved in this three-day fast.

So it's kind of hard for mom to be preparing food for all the little young, young children. You can't expect a four-year-old to go on a three-day fast. So you still got to provide food for the young children and the family.

That's going to be very hard for mom to do it since mom can eat for three days. So the 12-year-old daughter is somewhat responsible for taking care of the younger siblings. And she told me the story.

She was trying a wonderful young lady, 12 years old, trying to fast three days for her pastor, say, you don't really understand what fasting is when you're 12 years old. But she's trying to do it for three days.

And she said, but I was making PB&J sandwiches for the little ones. And I just couldn't help it. And I just took a bite. And the tragic, that's the funny part, John. The tragic part of that story for this young lady is a couple of days later at church, the following Sunday, when they find out that Hobart Freeman died.

He felt, surely, he died because I ate that peanut butter and jelly sandwich. That's the kind of pressure in burden put by a, in my opinion, a false shepherd on his poor people. That's awful.

I've got a grandfather who, much like me, likes to pull pranks and jokes and he would often go up to people after church and he would say, I really appreciate you, brother. I think you're in the spirit, let's, let's spend a few days fasting and in prayer together.

And you can see the look on their face, nobody wants to do this, man. You don't want to go without food, especially three days. I've fasted it. I don't know if you have ever done it, but let's first three days are killer.

You think you're going to die. But you know, all jokes aside, this is an awful thing that they're doing. It's, it was integrated into the movement. We've talked about this. You had William Brannum and his spiritualism doctrines and you had Franklin Hall and his fasting doctrines.

And those were the catalysts that birth later reign, those two things. You can go back and read through some of that history, but the point is this, they brought the fasting doctrine as though they could summon Jesus.

That's really the key difference between what the Bible says about fasting and what the movement said. They were trying, it was on the fears of World War Three, World War Two had just came and gone.

And there's this period of happiness where everybody felt now or peace, right? But then suddenly all of the fears that it was going to... happen again would come and this would be the big one, this would be the end of the world.

And so what they were trying to do, they were trying to summon Jesus and make Jesus come faster. And Christianity is not like that. Some of the occult religions are like that, but Christianity, you don't summon.

That's what they were trying to do. And they were pushing it, they were building themselves up into the spiritual fervor, where not just in the revival itself, but some of the groups started to have fasting doctrines even for the children.

And that still continues today, there are churches that do this. Like you said, no child wants to do that. No child is even biblically, they're not in the right state of mind to do this.

Fasting is something that not just Christianity, but many different religions do to get yourself into a state of submission so that you can be overcome with the spirit of whatever is the God that you're serving.

It's a common thing, but it has to be a person who's wanting to get into the spirit. It's not the random person who I'm going to make you suffer because I'm suffering too. And that's what this doctrine really comes out to be.

Yeah, and I have fasted John, I've never fasted longer than three days. We've talked about fasting before, where people have said they fasted 40 days, 49 days, one of them. And I said that Hobart loved to quote, no food or water, well, I'm just going to leave that there.

I'm not an expert on 40 day fast because I've never done one. I have fasted for three days. I don't know if I've ever fasted longer. And I believe in fasting. I think you probably believe in fasting.

It's in the Bible. Jesus taught it in the Sermon on the Mount. We're not making fun of fasting at all. Jesus taught it in the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 6. He said, when you fast, don't appear to others to fast.

That's the context in which he is teaching. And later in the gospel accounts, I think the Pharisees came and they wanted to know why Jesus disciples didn't fast. And he said, well, they don't fast because they have the bridegroom with them, but the days will come when the bridegroom has left, meaning himself.

And in those days, they will fast. So fasting is definitely something that is appropriate within a Christian church and Christian environment. As you said, it's in many other environments. But yes, it has to be something that adults do or I couldn't put an age on it if you're 12 or 13 or 14.

And it comes to you in your own mind and your own walk with God and you want to fast by all means. You know, there are no restrictions. There's a whole purpose of the New Testament is that you can't bind people.

There are no restrictions on fasting or praying. You simply do what you want to do. But I do think that it has to come from the person's heart and I think it's so right, John, which you said that we...

These movements tend to think they can manipulate God into doing what they want him to do. And that's just not Christianity. God is sovereign. He's going to do what and when and where and why and with whom he wants.

Then you can do all the fasting that you want. Fasting is good, praying is good. I know one of the things that I always had a problem with, and I have a problem joined at this day of these conferences that all of these groups have, and they say, we're going to have a big conference.

At the end of this month, those three days, you may come prayed up, and God is going to meet you in a way like He has never met you before. We can't schedule the Holy Spirit like that.

He may come there, he may not. He may come tomorrow when you're at home by yourself and you're bed room. You simply, it's OK to have a conference and all get together, but you can't have it under the pretense.

It's the same as we're talking about with this fasting. You can't do any of this under the pretense that we can assure the people, promise the people, get the people pumped up into hoping for expecting to see some great something from God.

I mean, the Holy Spirit is sovereign. He is the Holy Spirit and he moves when and where he wills. We only have a few moments left. So I'm on the evening now, John. They have fasted from Sunday to Wednesday.

Of course, Dr. Freeman is not in the pulpit on that Wednesday night. The fast comes to an end. They have Thursday. They have Friday. They have Saturday, which is December the 8th of 1984.

This will be Dr. Freeman's last day alive on this earth. And we just have all kinds of reports. And these reports are not difficult to come up with. Some of them are in the newspaper.

Some of them are in legal documents. Some of them are in medical reports. Some of them, many of them are firsthand reports. Some of them come from the neighbors who lived around the Freeman home on the corner of Shoe Lake, there in Indiana.

I know last summer, John, I think we put up a lot of pictures of Dr. Freeman's house. Have been in that house. I've been in all the rooms of that house. I have pictures of everything there.

June gave me a tour through the house. Some of the pictures we put up in the past. You actually see June as she's got a pair of gloves on and wanting to show us some little hand carved things that Hobart had done.

So they're neighbors. You know, they're not a lot of neighbors. That house, by the way, still exists. You can find it on Google Earth like you... You can find everything else, but there was a flurry of activity all around the Freeman residence on Shulake on that Saturday of December the 8th, 1984, and the neighbors testified to this effect, especially as evening came and as that night wore on.

There were lots of cars coming and going at the Freeman residence. Now I'm saying this because I don't think that the run of the mill average faith assembly person or maybe even more so those in outlying satellite groups and settings would know the facts of the case.

And we are going to continue to talk about, we're going to end up with Dr. Freeman dead before we're through with this podcast, but the story is not dead. There is so much more to say after that, but to wrap up with this last evening, and again, just remember the people who are following the podcast, we have a lot more to say about it.

There was a flurry of activity, obviously there are relatives, which would mean Dr. Freeman's wife and daughters, there are top ministers, we'll talk maybe more about some of those individuals later, their top ministers, this is, I mean, Dr. Freeman is so bad off that June is having to summon help to the house.

I think she was able to realize and the other people, such as Pam and Kathy, two daughters who were caring for their father at this time, and I'm sure doing the best job they could possibly do, none of them believed in medical science, none of them believed in any type of medical help or aid or medicine.

So it's just, as one medical report has said that we referenced earlier, soaks and dressings, you know, they're soaking this thing. This is gangrene that is, it's irreversible when it's at this point. You can't soak that or dress that in such a way as to make it go away.

Of course, I understand they're simply trying to keep Dr. Freeman as comfortable as possible, and that's when any loved one would do. But they're realizing that this is the moment when the rubber is meeting the road, you don't know how much longer he is going to survive, apart from a miracle.

You know, John, everyone in this doomsday divine healing mindset is literally expecting a last moment miracle. And God simply was not going to do that, and we can see why. But God done that!

That would have validated and justified this mess that had become faith assembly. That was the last thing God would ever consider doing because it would justify this and he didn't do it, which means it wasn't his will for this to happen.

And so I know this and we'll talk about this as it connects to the subject of deliverance and demonology. We haven't even approached yet John, Dr. Freeman's views on deliverance. They are disturbing and profoundly unbiblical as you would probably guess, even though you and I have never done a podcast, we focused on the divine healing side.

The divine healing side was terrible because people actually died. The deliverance side, you can end up pretty messed up, but you don't necessarily actually die under Dr. Freeman's false teaching on deliverance. He had horrifically unbiblical views on demons, Christians with demons, deliverance, the whole business, will spend some podcasts in the future on that.

My point in bringing it up is Dr. Freeman thought of himself as somewhat of an authority on the occult and he said, you know, I've written this book every wind of doctrine and I've written this book, Angels of Light and I've written this little tract on occult oppression.

So he had done a lot of study about cults and the occult and so we had a lot of material in his home. That last evening there was a flurry of activity to get rid out of his house, all of his books which were resource material for him, all of his books on cults, on demons, on free masonry, on anything that they thought listened to the crazy way they were trained to think that they thought might could possibly be the calls for Dr. Freeman's healing not being manifested.

That here this man is a faithful servant of God, claimed as healing, has done valid research on cults, has told on cults and now God is somehow going to not heal him because he simply has these books.

No, I mean what I see there is just terrible fear, fear and not knowing what are we supposed to do. This man is going to die, they're looking for any possible thing they can do to manipulate God into healing him.

They don't understand God as the great Almighty, loving and merciful Heavenly Father. They understand him as you have to have every eye dotted and every tea crossed and if you don't, if you have some sin in your life.

Like, maybe you have a book on Herbert W. Armstrong over on the bottom shelf of you, that allowed demons and their interference in the healing process into this house, and we have to rid the house of all of this before we can expect God to heal him. That was part of what was going on that evening. And with that, Dr. Freeman died later that evening, it's been said by his daughters anywhere between 8.30 pm and 11 pm. Why they're such a big time gap in that estimation, we'll talk about that in the future. Sounds good. And I'm looking

forward to getting into that because there's so much to say about the demonology. I remember my father had this whole collection of red books that were collections of random sermons, one of them was called demonology, the religious realm, or something like this.

I'm told that as my brother was being birthed in the hospital, my dad had this open and was like reading in the hospital of demonology, and the nurses would come in and look at that. Oh my gosh, did he, did he birth the child from Satan, you know, who knows what's going through their head, but the views that the movement has on this is a little bit skewed. I'll just say it like that, but look forward to it. Thank you so much for doing this. Thanks for having me, John.

Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at www.William-brandom.org. For more about the dark side of the new Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.