Learning to Let Go of an Angry God: Finding Faith After Fear

Music Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Brannum Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Brannum Historical Research at William-Brannum.org and with me, I have my very special guest, Rebecca McGahey, former member of the message.

Rebecca, it's good to have you on and to finally connect with you. We've tried to connect a few times and you have quite an interesting story, as it relates to anybody who's in William Brannum's message cult following.

You are directly descended to one of the reasons why we can say, truly, that William Brannum was a false prophet and had failed prophecies through your grandfather, which will get into that a little bit.

Your grandfather is the man who purchased the plane that William Brannum told him that he saw in the vision. You'll carry me around in this plane and then William Brannum died. So the plane's out there.

So, so much to talk about, but maybe before we get into that, if you could just tell everybody a little bit about yourself. Thank you so much, John. Like I said, it felt like I kind of get to know you.

I've gone down a rabbit hole now for a few months and have listened to so many podcasts. So like I said, when I go all into something, I really go all in. And so it's been a very eye-opening, I guess, too, for things that I have questioned pretty much my whole life to finally feel like you are vindicated in those feelings.

It's been pretty amazing. So I grew up, yes, very hardcore message, both sides of my family. So my parents were both raised in it. So it was just from the moment you're out of the womb.

This is the way life is. It wasn't like something that my parents came into later. It was just this was my life from as young as I can remember. And it was church every Sunday, three, four hour long churches.

And it was just like I said, very much. But growing up in it, I think I always knew that it wasn't really... I questioned it. I mean, even as a child. And it was something at church I zoned out.

And again, I sometimes laugh because I've been told my husband I was like, I feel like I was a naughty kid. I was always like falling asleep in church. I was drawing. I was always somewhere else.

And now I was an adult looking back. I'm like, maybe that was kind of God protecting me in a way that I just kind of... I just kind of checked out. You know, you go along with things, but you weren't really in it in it.

So yeah, I guess I grew up hardcore, a group around a lot of family. And so when I was from birth to a 10 years old, we lived in Arkansas where my dad's family is.

So we had like a home church, which was at my grandparents' house for my grandpa, led that, my dad's dad. And like I said, it was very all my family, you know, pretty much deeply in it, except for one of my dad's sisters who was not.

But yeah, all my cousins, so growing up, it was like I said, it's just all I knew. And yet, I was also one of the few that was given the gift of going to public school.

So I didn't have to deal with, I had cousins that also went to public and then I had cousins that were homeschooled. But yes, me and my brother got to go to public school and I always think that, you know, a lot of that kind of helped save my sanity in a way because I had that normalcy as far as even though you're different, but you kind of get that to get to be out in the world.

So being raised in it, I will say that, I listen to a lot of these people's stories and I will say, obviously, as we all know, ours are all very different. I was not raised in the super legalistic homes that I think a lot of people are raised in.

I'm gonna call it the best way I can describe is 80-20, you know, it's kind of like they said, the way that you eat food is 80% be healthy, but then give yourself that 20%.

And I think that's kind of how you, my brother, were kind of raised, it was 80-20. So we were, yes, it was strict, yes, we were different by standards of, of course, the world, but when I listen to some of these people's stories, I'm like, oh, my, it wasn't that bad.

My husband will look at me sometimes who my husband not raised in this at all. And he will stare at me and he's like, did you, I'm like, no, we didn't have to do that.

No, we didn't do that, you know? So yeah, I was like, I could go swimming and I didn't have to wear a jean skirt, you know, I could wear like a one piece and some baggy shorts, you know.

So again, you're modest and you're, but versus I had cousins that went swimming and, you know, ankle jean skirts, you know. So my parents tried, I think, very hard to kind of, like I said, it was like, yes, you're different, yes, you're, you stand out by normal standards of the world.

And, but we were given, like I said, a little bit more wiggle room, you know, I could wear a skirt, I could wear my knees could show, you know, I wear cool lots, you know, things like that.

So there was, there was some stuff that like I said, I feel like they, and then I think as we got older, they got a little bit, again, it was hard, obviously, especially, my harder for me than my brother, because we talked about, you know, that the boys don't have to go through quite the, looking different as girls do.

And so like I said, it was, you're different, but they tried, they tried to kind of let us have a little bit. Yeah, but at the age of 10, then we moved to Arizona.

So we moved up to Northern Arizona, up to press. it. So I spent from 10 to 19 living in Arizona, which is where my mom's side of the family is. And so as I kind of briefly told you a little bit, my grandpa's, you've talked about a podcast, you know, it's the one that bought the plane that, you know, Brandon told him to get. And so that is my mom's side. So my mom's side is, I would say a little maybe less strict than my dad's side. My grandpa, my mom's side being having kind of,

I guess, more of a personal relationship with Brandon, knew him, went to his house, you know, so it's very interesting. The two dynamics of both my families were both of them in it. Where is my mom's side? It was because my grandpa, like I said, knew him personally.

It was, as we've talked about, Brandon was very kind of how he preached. It was, do as I say, but not as I do. But then growing up, it was funny, because then even when my cousins weren't allowed to do things, my mom would be like, Oh, well, you know, well, brother, Brandon had a TV and, you know, brother, they went swimming. They didn't wear, so I grew up, you know, it was like, I was like, Oh, that's why we did those things because he did those things. But then I never, it's kind of funny, because whenever I talk to somebody

who's female who escaped the cold, when they talk about their experience and what they went through, it's always about what they dress. It's like this was a religion of how to dress. This is your dress code religion. The dress code God is going to punish you if you don't adhere to the dress code for the guys. It wasn't like that. And I grew up much with some of the same dynamics because my grandfather, obviously, knew Brandon. I knew your grandfather. I'd met him. I can't remember when some convention here in Jeffersonville.

But it's very much like you said, the ones who knew Brandon, they're kind of relaxed with all of these rules. And it took me a long time to understand that many of the rules were actually added by the people later because of the rants. He would get in this Pentecostal rant where he's just angry at the world. And he's blasting everything where everybody's who's listening to that thinking, Oh, well, he doesn't like that. I must not like that too.

And people formed their opinions based off of what this guy who's ranting is voicing as a angry opinion. So the whole thing is just so messed up. Yes, that's that's really it. Exactly. Like you said, so I always find it interesting. You talk about different sex and different churches. And so while, like you said, but even within, you know, families, it's kind of hilarious because it was like, there's still everyone's kind of picks, like you said, they picked their own little areas of, you know, what they want to do, what they don't want to do. And we run with that. So we did the do as I,

you know, did, not as I said, kind of we kind of follow that mantra. I guess that was kind of the my raising. And even more so my mom's side of the family. So like I'm moving to Arizona again, I home school for one year because I actually asked to, I thought that was going to be fun. And then that was horrible. So I said, please put me back in school.

So went back to public school. in seventh grade, and then again, middle school through high school spent in public. And so like I said, I think that always saved my sanity of growing up because I had friends that were in it. Also outside of it is like when we first moved there, I think they tried harder to my mom tried to kind of find groups. We had a church when we first got to like Northern Arizona. Then that I don't even remember but typical that the church dismantled for some reason kind of fell apart and you know

I've some argument over something you know. Don't remember all the dynamics to that but so then it kind of went to home churches and then we would just bounce around but yeah I also grew up so it was we were a huge believer in tapes, preachers or I guess of the devil. You were, you know, unless you had like a different speaker that was a different situation but of course again we have all of our laurels and so but it was always it was pretty much I grew up with sitting in someone's living room listening to a tape and

that was just normal. And like I said I hadn't it's funny I has like said I haven't been a part of it my whole adult life and so when you go back and my husband literally we have been married for almost 19 years and he has not known any part of almost like this side of my growing up and so like said he will listen to the podcast and he will and he looks at me and he asks me stuff and he's like I laugh I'm like would you've married me if you'd known all this? He really didn't I haven't I didn't touch

based on a lot of because like I said I just I think as a kid I kind of again you're in it you follow the rules because it's what you have to do you're made to look different you're made to but again I always had I had good friends I always had like outlets to kind of help you know when I got older I would you know get to school and change clothes at all kinds of friends that had you know they'd bring me extra clothes and I would just change and you just kind of you know rolled with

but yeah as a time that I was an adult I especially I got married really young so I married my high school sweetheart he joined the army like right out of high school and actually got stationed in Alaska and so we knew of course that we were not going to really be able to afford to be together let's get married so I got married at 19 and then moved up to Alaska which was probably the I mean looking back now at our life it was the best thing that could have ever happened because it was like um

you know just part of that growing up and and you need to cut that cord I don't know go live your life you know and meet other people and and the military has allowed us to do that so by we've yeah so many different states so many different places I've gone to so many different church I've known so many friends from all different backgrounds and yeah I've got to just really live a very dynamic life and so I think that that's um it's been really awesome but what I realized I guess where my story maybe is like a lot of people's maybe

It's not, I don't know, maybe it's my own. I have lived outside of this. So again, kind of rejected it as a child, I'd almost say, but really a general rejected it more as I got as a teenager.

Then Mary, my husband, and was like, no, I will never be a part of this. I don't believe this. This is not my version of Christianity. My husband, I was not part of it.

I had no intentions of ever marrying anybody that was, I didn't want to raise my kid in it. Kids, I was like, no, this is not. My story is more of like, I think we carry more baggage sometimes than we realize.

So not living in it, not being a part of it, living my whole life. I spent many years like really running for God, not just believing in Him, but you think of Him as a different

version of God. I guess there's, there's, like I said, there's a weight that we carry, I think. It's the angry God. We believed in the angry God. This God didn't like us at all.

He's going to punish us. Yes, yes, yes, yes, very, yes, very angry, very judgmental, you know, and so like I said, I carried that around. I, when I say I went, you know, through a wild phase, I mean, like, yeah, you know, you go through a really, which I think a lot of people do, of course, you know, really wild, really rebellious phases, really.

And yet, like I said, never, I never went through a, I'm going to say like an atheist period. I never, I tried, I actually tried for a while there to like, you know, maybe it's easier to just not believe in God.

And you know, what's that saying? Like, I don't have enough faith to be an atheist. That's, that's my kind of, it doesn't sit with my heart and soul and it's just not, and plus, like I said, God has been very present in my life.

But I have wrestled and I, like I said, realized that while I've been living my life, I have been carrying this metaphorical little, you know, box around. I move it from state to state, from house to house, and it's like I move it and I set it up in my closet and I don't ever open it around packet.

And it wasn't until about September that I just, last year that I decided to unpack that box. So it was, it was whenever Charlie Kirk got killed, it kind of really affected me and it affected my husband.

We followed him for, I had followed him for a few years and you know, just really, it just hit me. And so I just kind of saw really questioning just my own version of Christianity and the way I viewed things or the way I was, like I said, it was like, yes, I always believe in God.

Yes, I talk to God, yes, I, but again, I was realizing I was still thinking I have to fit in a certain way. So if I'm praying in a pair of jeans, like, well, God, it's God really listening to me.

And again, I didn't realize that I was still carrying this around and I would just deeply really pray. This was like, said, back last fall. Just really, I was like, you know, God, I want to, you know, my husband made the decision that we wanted to get baptized.

We really wanted to be just more ever present, grow together and for our daughter and, you know, But then when I started all this stuff came back and a big part of that I think is like when you tell your parents, you know, we got baptized Granite obviously not in the message church. My parents were very they were still very happy. They were very But we start getting that I think they're hoping that you are gonna you're gonna come back, you know, and So I started getting a lot of little comments more so from my mom and

I just that was when I really started wrestling because I was like, oh my gosh And I and I feel even almost like dumb to say this because I hadn't lived it my whole life like I haven't been a part of this as an adult But I was like am I supposed to go back to like wearing skirts? Is this like in my you know, I said I really sort of questioning, you know And I just I just my really I prayed I was like God you're gonna have to like show me Because I can't follow this unless like you actually believe this man was a prophet otherwise

I can't believe anything that he says because to me he's just a person and You're gonna have to and I mean it's almost amazing sometimes the way that you you said it a lot and When you start reading the Bible yourself Beginning to end something actually amazing happens because you see things through a very very very different lens You're not looking at it through someone else's lens. You're reading it for yourself now and During this time I started in September I have one of those little women's journals that like the Bible in a year, you know kind of guides you and

It was amazing during this time when I was really Wrestling of like okay, what kind of Christian do I have to be because all I know is rules and following, you know ABCD and that's how you that's how you get to heaven. That's how you you know And it was like during that time I kept finding all kind I mean it was like the amount of scriptures that would pop up my little daily devotional I have a daily devote I have a a scripture thing that comes up on my phone I have a daily devotional that I read it was like all of a sudden during this really turmoil

Time in my own brain. It was a lot about you know false prophets and you realize how many times in the Bible that actually comes up Weird

So much to unpack there so people who are listening not everybody and ironically not everybody in the message even is Familiar with this but you mentioned tape churches tape homes this kind of thing We did the same thing what this is all the family gathers together and one of the people's homes and you play a recording from 1947 to 1965 and

There there's some oddities that people don't think about even within the message. They don't think about I remember it was being held at one of our houses and I was Just coming of age out Gosh, I don't know I might have been five years old or something and I can remember like dressed in my P.Js And they might have even been under yours who knows and I remember there was the first time that somebody brought a little girl To our tape home meeting. Well here. I am sitting in my my sleeping, you know I don't know what I was wearing, I'd just say it like that.

But I remember being so embarrassed because she was all dressed up and I'm wearing PJs or whatever it was, probably underuse because I know that that's what we did, which was a violation of many message codes, which is another funny story.

But I remember that feeling and it was the first time that I really thought about, wait a minute, this is an actual church, but it's in our living room and everybody's coming from it.

It's such a weird, weird feeling. Now, years later, as I'm unpacking all of this, and especially as I'm working with the females who have escaped, when the females unpack what they believe and the God that they view, it's a God that's got a dress code, that's really all it is.

And if you read the Bible, God is so much more than a dress code, right? But for the men, other than the underrues, it wasn't much of a dress code, right? So there wasn't much to unpack, but when we listen to those recordings, the recordings that are, they were made during the height of the Cold War, you had all of the political turmoil that was happening.

You had a minister who had been sanctioned by most of the Pentecostal churches because of Latter-Rain. He's angry at the world and he shows it. And so you're listening to an angry recording, you can't help but think about an angry God.

Now the interesting part of this is, I'd guarantee you, I've not asked them, but my parents, if they were still part of our lives, if you were to ask them, they would say, no, brother brand, I'm never taught, I'm angry God.

But see, their version of the God is different than what we got on those recordings. They went to hear actual preaching with actual people. They knew the man who had television in his home, we had a television in our home because he had a television in his home.

And most of the rest of the cult heard the angry version, no, you're the lowest center if you have a television in your house. So it was basically, it was a religion of rules from an angry God being preached from this ranting minister who's angry at the world.

And how can you not think that there's an angry God? Yeah, 100%. Like you said, I can vividly, I can hardly remember anything that was said as a child, like you said, sitting in church, but it was, but that's always what I remember.

It was like, I, again, I think you said, it's like you're being berated, you know, in this, I think the best thing, if anyone's ever asked me about my upbringing or what church was like growing up for me, and one of the examples I've always used, I'm going to go off on a tangent here, but was from Pollyanna, you know, the preacher in Pollyanna when he death comes unexpectedly, it could happen to you, it could happen.

That is literally, I remember as a kid watching that episode, I was like, yeah, it's a church is like that someone that's yelling at you because every time you go, you have something to repent for, which, hey, guess what?

News flash, we all do every day because we're not perfect, you know, but I don't. I don't, I don't know. And I guess I'm like, I'm a hard enough person on myself. The last thing I wanna go to church or even my husband said that.

Again, my husband was raised with zero religion. It's not whatsoever. My husband is one of the most amazing, kind, grace-giving men I've ever met in my life. And he's, to me, he's the perfect example of, what a Christian is, even though crazy.

He wasn't raised with anything, but he evokes this, that's just who he is. And that's what he said. He's like, why would you wanna go to church and be like, yelled at her? Why would you wanna go and be told?

And I'm like, I, exactly, I don't know. He's like, I couldn't go to church like that. Like, he goes, you know, we go now. And he's like, we all need that reminder that's like, hey, cool, you're not perfect.

Neither am I. None of us in here are. And every day we fail. And every day, that's where, cause we're human, you know? And again, but what you're only raised with one, and I think, you know, like, sit in that, it creates a very judgmental, very, again, I know you guys have all talked about this.

And of course, I saw this very much again, even though I have a great relationship with my parents, I always have, still do. I know, like, I know not everyone has that. I know not everyone has that.

And I think that's one thing that I struggled with ever calling it a cult. Even though, weirdly, I have been drawn to cult everything my entire life, every memoir, every documentary, I've watched it, I've read it.

Like, it's always fascinated me. Well, you know, there's a reason. But I fought calling it a cult. And I'm sure there's no people who I feel the same way, maybe, because I didn't lose connection with my family, even when I was going off like the deep end.

I mean, even when I went through my, like, early 20s, like, really rebellious phase. I didn't, my family from grandparents to aunts, uncles, cause no one was like, oh, God, we can't, don't speak to Rebecca anymore.

She's off the deep end. Nobody did that. They might have talked about it. I'm sure private. I'm sure a lot of people have talked about my, you know. But nobody did that. And so I always felt like I had a good support, you know, and there's a lot of love.

And so again, I struggled. I was like, what's not a cult? Because like, I'm not kicked out because I wear jeans. Like, nobody stopped talking to me. But then it's, when you start really diving into what a cult is, and you start getting into more of that dynamics of, like you said, it's like, it doesn't have to fit one specific mold.

But there's a lot of, yeah, because my husband, like I said, he listens and he's like, honey, you wear any cult, right? Yeah. Well, and think about Dr. Stephen Hassan's bite model. Everything that you have mentioned has supported this.

You talked about the dress code. Well, that's behavioral control. We've talked about the airplane, which half the cult doesn't even know is a failed prediction. It's a violation control, right? The thought control, you're thinking constantly, I can't even pray to God if I don't have the dress code.

of this guy. It's thought manipulation, thought control, right? And oh my gosh, the emotional control. We were emotional train wrecks. And here's what's really hard. And I've worked with lots of people who've gone through this. You're an emotional train wreck, but you don't even know it. You bottle it up while you're in the call. After you leave, when you start processing it, everything that you have bottled up for me, it was 37 years. 37 years of emotion comes out instantly. And you start diving in, much like you describe, I'm diving in trying to figure out all the researching what's true, what's not. And my emotions are

going haywire. And every person that I talk to who comes out of it, that's exactly what happens to them. Nope, it is because you, like I said, I always, I questioned so many things, but again, this is where I think the coal aspect really hit me. I realized it. I realized it whenever actually we went in to talk to the junior pastor that actually baptized me. My husband at our church here. And he was asking about the way I was raised. And I was like, oh boy, okay, how do I, you know, and so I said, you know, I was like, oh, you know, who brother

brand him is. And he was like, yes. And it was then afterwards that I realized I was like, I said brother brand him, you know, because that's all I know him as being called, you know.

And that was all you still, I realized I was like, I think I'm still, I'm still putting him a little bit on a pedestal. And again, this has been a man I have not followed. I have done whatever I wanted since the moment I walked out of my parents house. I have had him like, this is weird. So as I said, it's that box I carried it around. Didn't realize it when I really wanted to, I was like, okay, God, I'm done running from you. I want to follow, but I'm questioning this, you know, and that was when the box. So upon my

questioning, upon like you said, reading the Bible, truly from beginning, I mean, you've said it, and it is truly the most empowering thing I think you will ever do. If anyone's struggling, even with just do it, just do it because there's so many things that from what he has said, I mean, I tell you, when I go down a rabbit hole, I do. I become like my own little like documentary, like, I have, you know, I don't even trust you sometimes that you'll say something. And I'll be like, hmm, hold on. I'm going to look that up myself.

And I'm like, oh, my gosh. Oh, my, you know, and then I, then I go down another one because that's how I think I'm like, I can't just believe anyone if they, I got to find this out myself. You know, I got Brian Small's book. I got, I mean, I just really, you know, because I'm like, well, one day, like if my parents, I want to be able to back up in a respectful way, maybe, but I need to, like, I want to know all that I could know. So I again, rabbit hole, crazy. But I, but I just like I said, I started questioning. And so again, going

through all that, reading the Bible, going to church here, talking to other pastors. And I think you've said it. And again, our pastors here have said it in something, you know, amazing, that was like, tall, was like, you know, Christianity is supposed to be simple.

It is not supposed to be the matrix. This is not, what did I call, I can't think of it, like the Da Vinci code, you know, it's, it's not so. It's not so. Yeah.

You know, I have, we're recording this long before this comes out, but I have next week, which will probably be three or four, maybe five weeks before our podcast comes out. Talking about how narcissism and the esoteric type of gospel, it developed from the mystery cults, but it came into Christianity through multiple streams, many of which Brannum was writing on those streams.

And what is a mystery cult? Well, mystery cults were this ancient philosophy that if you were, if you had the secret knowledge that only came from God or that they use the term Sophia sometimes, this secret knowledge, if you had it, you were the elite, the spiritual elite, you were saved.

You had the secret knowledge. Well, this entered into Christianity and formed what's called narcissism. And in narcissism, you had Christians who thought we have the secret knowledge. The other Christians over there, they don't, they're not going to make it.

We're the ones who are saved. And Irenaeus, who was one of William Brannum's chosen church age messengers for the dispensational church ages, condemned the whole thing. And like you're talking about whenever you started reading the Bible, you just unpacked this.

I, I started with the Bible, but I also was reading other things as well. And one of the things that I read were, and I think there's multiple books of against heresies. And I'm reading through all of these heresies and I'm like, oh my gosh, this is, this is condemning everything that I stand for.

And yet it's just narcissism rebranded as the message sold to the people. And the God that it's teaching is not the God of the Bible. No, no, it's mind blowing it. Like you said, and you, once you start, and again, the, see, I went off, that was where I went off another scroll there.

But it was like, that was where I realized that the cult type was this fear of even like looking up Brannum. I realized I had that, you know, and because you weren't supposed to question, well, that's a cult.

Like if you feel like you can't question someone, like who, you should be able to question anything. Something should be able to be, you should go to form a reason, you should be able to, you know, and so like you said during that time, where I'm just really talking to God, and my God, I'm going to be real.

Like I, I don't, I don't want to do any part of the way I was raised. But if that is somehow, if that is the correct way, I will, you're going to have to lead me and you're going to have to show me.

And then like I said, ironically, all this, it's like false prophets, it was like daily on my devotion, it was daily, I was like, all right, I think, you know, okay, I'm, I'm understanding.

I'm going to start. I just came just some, some googling, you know, it just became some, I recently had an Annuncle that I look up very much to, that actually very recently, like with it.

in the last year or two, actually left. And that was a big, you know, to the family. And, but, you know, so even things like that. And so I knew some information they had used.

And, you know, I went down. But anyways, of course, my Googling led me to you, you know, which got, like I said, again, here we go. Whole wrap, you know. For a person who struggles with the squirrel effect, my research, it makes you, it's a thousand squirrels.

How do you even unpack this? Okay. Yes, that was what I had to do. It was one squirrel at a time. And it was very, I heard, I'm not even kidding you. And so you'd be, I'd be listening to it.

And I'm like Googling something else. And I'm going to be in like Brian's book. And I'm like, what? And you're just, like you said, it was just like, you know, and I'm like, even this stuff that I had always, like many things that I had questioned.

But we're like, the more I went into it, you were just like, oh my gosh. Like, how is anybody a part of this? I'm like, get it. I know that could be any, any cult or any religion that can be like put into, but whenever you unpack it, you're like, well, no wonder even as a kid, I was like, this is just kind of like, you know, I don't know, I just, it was, it's been very interesting.

It's like peeling an onion, you peel a layer and you peel another layer and you keep peeling and these layers keep coming off, but then you get to the middle and there is no core.

It's just, there's no substance whatsoever. Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new Apostolic Reformation?

You can learn this and more on William Brannum Historical Research's website, William-Brannum.org. On the book's page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon and others with links to the paper, audio and digital versions of each book.

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So I remember when your grandfather came and I listened to the whole story about the plane and the dreams that was having, there were two brothers, I'm assuming that it's your grandfather that I've met.

But I have somewhere in this room, this collection of all this Brannum stuff. I've got a shrine back here. Somewhere in my shrine, I think I even have his testimony. But he talks about how William-Brannum said, I'm going to take you on one great trip through the end of days and then we're gonna have a tent.

We're gonna fly me from town to town until the tent's planted and see my sect of the cult. We believed because it came from William-Brannum to my grandfather that it's gonna be very difficult to get to this tent.

But. you have to be there, because if you're not there, you're not gonna be saved. When you get there, you're gonna go in this little room with William Brannum, and you're gonna be given your new bodies.

That was our secret, that was our Gnostic belief. That was our secret Moses, right? And then, in the same recording, the same testimony, he starts talking about this dream that he had of how heaven was this pyramid.

And Jesus was in the top room of the pyramid, all of the houses, the mansions that we have, they weren't really mansions, they're just elements of the pyramid, building blocks of the pyramid. And I remember scratching my head, thinking, you know, that sounds a little weird.

And I was probably, I don't know, I think 16, when I first heard this, 17, something like this. I'm like, that sounds a little bit weird. And now as an adult, I'm looking back at that moment, the pyramid thing sounded weird, but the 10th thing where this human is gonna give you a new body that didn't sound weird.

We were so messed up. Yeah, it's, I guess that I think there's a reason that as a kid and a teenager, I just kind of, I just checked out, I don't know, I guess that was a, my, again, I think that was my own protection in a weird way of like, I couldn't, like I couldn't follow it.

And so I couldn't follow all of this stuff, like it didn't, it didn't make sense. So I think like you said, you just check out. And so, yeah, with my grandpa's testimony, again, it was, there was always my whole family, especially obviously my mom's side.

That was just the way it was gonna go. And there was no, and we believed, they believed that my grandpa was just, I mean, he was, he was not gonna pass away, because Brandon was coming back.

They were gonna, my grandpa owns, but you know, I think still has land in Texas, like, oil fields. There was, again, all, it's a little bit hazy. Some of the, all the details to that, but he was coming back.

They were gonna, the oil fields, they were gonna do all that, the plane, the, so my grandpa did, I mean, he physically bought this plane. And there was, it was my grandpa's a pilot and had an airport.

And so when my grandpa got sick and with cancer, and he's, he's dying. And the whole family is trying to get him to make his will. My grandpa has all of these assets. You've, he's got airports, got plane, like, you have to have a will.

And he was literally, I mean, not, you know, dying and was saying, like, no, I mean, I'm not gonna die. He was, I mean, he would refuse to do this will. And again, finally, the family member is, and I think in attorney, finally talked him into, okay, you know, you're not, but you gotta, just do this, you know, just for us to have peace of mind.

So he finally did make or at least sign the will, you know, before he passed away. And so I think, even whenever he passed away, I think I thought, okay, surely this is going to, to make my mom, my everyone's gonna be like, oh my goodness, okay, this stuff did not come to pass.

So we can maybe, we should maybe question just a little bit, even though we love our dad, we love our parents, we love, but maybe they didn't have all the answers either. Maybe they were led astray by, you know, but no, it's a very odd psychological phenomenon that people will almost cling harder, something me and my brother both do not grasp because to us were like, we talk about it a lot.

Like I said, we don't understand the dynamic of why that, well, like I said, I think I had my mom's older sister did kind of finally, you know, start, they started questioning some things.

And again, I think it was more because their kids started questioning things. It was their oldest son who figured out the bridge story was untrue. When he started dismantling it, he would start just saying a few things, you know, planting those seats, like did you know that that didn't happen?

And so like I said, it kind of started them kind of a little bit more spiraling as their kids kind of all left and grandkids were like, yeah, nothing to do with that. There has been, yeah, just so many things that like I said, then for my own parents, I don't know.

Again, I still have so many that are in it that are, and I thought that that was really gonna kind of be an aha moment and that shockingly was not. Because it was, it was for me, even though it was like, but I still kind of was like, okay, yeah, that's, well, he's passed away and none of those testimonies came about along with so many others.

And yet, you know, we're still there, right? It's odd for those of us who had family that was traveling or spent time with the so-called profit. It's really odd. My grandfather, I can remember him saying, and he would get real quiet before he told it.

So you're getting spooked, right? He would spook to people, which is emotional control, an emotional manipulation, but he would do this and he would say things like, brother Brannum told me, he got to make it to that tent and it's gonna be really, really hard to get to that tent.

But he said, when you get there, brother Collins, you're gonna get there and you're gonna see that little room. Well, my grandfather died. I thought like you will have half of the things that he said, that will your Brannum said about him, that he was alive for those things.

Surely it's gonna wake people up, but they don't. They bury themselves further into the sand. Another thing, and this is really sad when I think about it. One of my family, I'm not gonna mention which, but one of my family was dating somebody and Brannum told the, it's a female, told her that she should drop that guy and do this other, get this other guy.

So manipulating the family relationship and I don't remember all of the details, so I may get part of that wrong, but the, the climax of the story was, one day I'm going to be right before the end of days, I'm going to come visit you in Brother Collins Motorhome, and I'm going to ask you how happy you are with this new guy, not the guy that you were with, but the new guy. So now on hindsight, I'm looking back, number one, he just destroyed a relationship. Who does this? What kind of minister does this?

Number two, my grandfather's dead. The motorhome's been sold. I know, I think I know who has it. None of that can come true. And I remember I sat there every Sunday listening to my grandfather tell all these things. I know every face that was in that crowd. Every single person who is thinking about this, they have to at some point be thinking, well, none of that can be true.

So what is the next logical step? Do they think my grandfather was lying about it? I honestly think that they go down that pathway, but then here's where it gets really weird. Those who are in those who know those who know all the lies, when they see somebody like me or you leaving, they actually are happier that we've left because we can't question the things that fully contradict and undermine the entire foundation. So even though I'm doing what I'm doing, there's a part of them that wants me to be away from the people so they don't have to hear it.

Yeah, that's an excellent point. Yes, because they hate to say this, but I mean this is even with my own parent, but they want to live in their own denial. I think, and again, I think it goes back to once again, and very, very common with cults, especially obviously religious, now any cults, it's why all times they frown on religion, or religion, so why they frown on education.

Not so much because education is, again, I'm a very strong person in my beliefs. I can, you know, I've gone to multiple different colleges, actually got my bachelor's from Liberty, which is a Christian university. And so even within that was really awesome in a way because every paper I wrote, every discussion board I posted, anything we had to do, we had to have, obviously have peer-reviewed journals to back up, anything we're going to talk about. You have to be able to back up what you're, you know, you have to support it with actual factual evidence.

Then we also had to pertain it to the Bible because it was a Christian university, and we had to, that almost got me even the same thing, like more a wave, and because it was like, yeah, you know, you can, you can pertain all these where it's still like scientific factual, but what it does is, like you said, the biggest thing to me is that all education is going to make you do, maybe not just believe everything everyone says and just take it as like full, and that's where I think they frown on education. It's not even as much as sometimes of what you learn or oh,

they're afraid you're going to be brainwashed by, okay, sure, there's, but it's more just like, it's just, and again, I think I, again, I came into the world like that. It wasn't like I was going to be, I didn't need...

college, to even like, that's always been me. I question everything. I'm a very, but I'm also very like black and white. I'm very, yeah, you can't tell me something like, I need to be able to be like, okay, prove it.

Let me just, as long as I can see the evidence and you can, I'm like, I got you, okay, I understand that where I can see where you're coming from or give me your perspective, like, but there has to be, you have to be able to back something up.

And I realized that my whole growing up, nothing was ever really backed up. It was just, no, that's the way that it is because brother random said that. Do you know how crazy I looked?

The first time I told my best friend that I've had since seventh grade about the serpent seed because I thought that was, you know, normal. I was like, well, you know, Eve, she was with the devil and she was looking at me like, I lost my mind.

I remember the first time I told somebody, I was like, oh, no, that's a secret that we have to keep to ourselves. So what's funny is I have a very analytical mind. I've always had it.

And I didn't question the message, which is a little bit ironic, but I did have a mind that thinks and I love science. And I'm one of the few people when I heard William Brannum use science to back his claims.

I thought that this was a way to prove yourself, right? What I didn't catch was that whenever it was in his favor, he would use science to back it. And then if it was never in his favor, he would condemn science and sciences of the devil.

And I'll never forget encountering message people who when I talk about anything scientific, they just went berserk. You can't do this, John. Sciences of the devil look at Cain and his seed and his race.

And I'm like, what? And at that point in my life, I knew how science works. They fully were, Brannum was lying, but the people worse, the people accepted the lie to believe that science is such that they come up with some non-sensical theory and you have to adopt it.

That's not how science works. You present a theory and then you have to prove that theory. And sometimes it even present the wrong theory so that you can prove the right theory. So there's a scientific method.

That's what I'm talking about. I knew the scientific method and the irony is, while knowing this method, I wasn't applying it to my faith or my religion. Otherwise, the whole thing would have just crumbled instantly.

Yeah, it's like I said, it's an odd and you're right. When it was in his favor, it was always fine to use that. And again, we can't do that. We cannot do that in any kind of educational, you can't do that.

It has to be all the way around and there has to be a, yeah. So again, like I said, being looked at crazy for serpent seed and then that wouldn't always question myself. And that was always actually probably one of the biggest that I even remember as being younger.

Being like, that's once again, you go read the Bible yourself. And I think something I even talked to, again, my one uncle that has left. I had a long conversation with him one day, and that's why I told him to.

I said, you know, even if that was the case, I said, if Keynes cede that line was that, I said, wouldn't the flood have wiped out that line? Wasn't that, you know, the point?

And so he was like, oh, I hadn't even thought about that. You know what I'm like, but again, we could go to all these, but like you said, even if you were going to use that as a case, but I said, there's so many things that you just, you go back and forth, and I think there was, there was one episode you talked about, you went on something about, about eagles, and you know, they would, they will eat, was it roadkill?

I can't remember it, it was something along those lines that, you know, that was actually one of the first ones that I've done as, I've tried to, I'm trying to plant seeds in my parents' head slowly without just, you know, and whenever I was there, actually over Christmas, whenever I got over being sick and we went there for a few days, and that was one of the things I just mentioned.

They start talking about eagles, and I said something about it. I was like, hey, you know what? They're actually in the vulture family, and my mom's like, no, I said, they know they are.

I didn't actually look that up, and it was just, that was just, but again, these are things that are not, this is a quick Google search. This is a, a chat GBT, like these are not hard things to like look at.

I don't think I've ever told this on the podcast, and I know I'm gonna embarrass my friend to death, but when we first come out of the message, I went through this deep study of alcohol, which I've talked about a few times, wine actually helped me overcome deep depression.

Well, I had a friend who, same thing, he went down the same path, he left the message, and he says, John, I'm coming to Jefferson, going to meet with you, so we stopped at a restaurant, and I had a glass of wine, he had, I don't know what he had, but we're sitting there having left the message, where Brannum is saying that we're like the Eagles, and the Eagles is God's bird, and I had, not two months before this, I had discovered the passage in the Old Testament where it said, these are the birds that God affords,

the Eagle, and so we're sitting there, we're having drinks, and we look out the window, and I kid you not, a bald eagle flew down at that moment, and got something off of the road, I kid you not, you can't make this stuff up, and you're talking about all of the things that we were taught, so twisted and so wrong, some of them I did question, but I didn't question the whole movement.

Here's the irony, this one I questioned a long time ago, and it really undermines the entire basis of the faith, he would often say that whenever the people got baptized in the name of Father Son and Holy Ghost, he said they had to be rebabtized to be saved.

Well, the Bible doesn't say that, and I knew, because even back then in the message, I had read the Bible, I know the Bible does not say that, but... But there is a passage that says, how were your baptize were baptized onto John?

What I did not recognize was that he was twisting the truth just a little bit. They were people that were re-baptized, but not because of the formula John was baptizing before Jesus unto repentance.

And so he was asking, how were your baptize were baptized into John? The reason why I did question it, and I didn't question it like I wanted to become, leave the oneness faith and become trinitarian.

I still kept my message oneness, believe. But I had friends in school who were trinitarian and they were just as solid of a Christian as I was. Yes. And I got to thinking about it.

And I got to thinking, well, if Jesus said to be baptized, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, how can I condemn them when they're doing exactly what Jesus said? And then my mind went there, but I shut it off.

I remember putting that in a shelf. Well, does that mean if Jesus was saying it and it's wrong? Does that mean Jesus was wrong? Was he lying to those people? My mind actually went there, right?

But then I'm like, oh, I can't question that. I'm not going to talk about that anymore. No, you, again, we all go down our own rabbit holes of, and sometimes it'll make your brain hurt after a while.

I did that too again. Oh my gosh, getting baptized in like a modern mega church. Like, I was nervous. Yep, no, I literally, because again, there are so many. And this is where, again, this was where my awakening really happened, because at 37 years old, I had to go, hold on.

I'm carrying a lot more of this than I realize. I maybe have been living my life the way that I wanted to, or I thought that I was picking my version of Christianity, but I realized that I was still kind of holding on to thinking that that was still the correct way.

That was the sad part that I had to finally, I really, like I said, figure out, because I was like, wait a minute. If you're still believing that that's still somehow the correct way, and you're picking your way, but you are afraid that, like, oh my gosh, but what if, like you said, well, God's not gonna listen to my prayers because I'm wearing jeans.

Y'all long it took, I was still wearing, I could only wear a skirt or a dress to church, even going to a mega church where everybody wears whatever they want. I was just, like, I still, I couldn't even, like, I wore jeans every day to work, but I was like, I can't wear that to church.

It just took me, like, over the last couple of months where I could finally be like, well, no, if you don't think that, you know, to finally, like, get into these different comfort zones, and it's crazy, because, like I said, even my husband has watched me.

He's like, you've never re-questioned all of these things. And again, I hadn't even, I thought about, like I said, I just kind of shoved it away. And, but, yeah, the baptism, oh my gosh, I was so nervous.

I was like, oh my gosh, they're gonna baptize me in the father and son, the whole, so I did the same thing. I came home and I was like, open by Bible. And I looked up that scripture and I was like, That's what it says, says baptize in the name of the father, son, and the Holy Spirit.

There is no, that is in like the King James. I have two different Bibles. I have like a study Bible that's a more modern, and then I have a King James, okay? And that is, there was no way you could decipher that.

It was like, no, that's, that is exactly what it says. I was like, why, why were we told, I read it. I read it again. I told my husband, I said, my life right now, I feel like it's a game show of like cult or not, like the, you know, drum roll, and I will literally hear something and I are all think of something and then I'll go, oh gosh, is that actually biblical or is that the way we were brought up?

Not to scare you, but I've been out of this since January 1st, 2012. Every single day that thought hits me, every single day. It's comforting, because I know I'm like, I'm going to be doing this for a while, because again, it's stuff I hadn't, I just ignored it, and then all of a sudden now, and I go to church and I sit in the church and they'll say something and I'm like, oh, and I do the same thing.

Sometimes I have to like look things up or I have to go back, I'm like, oh, that's so not what we were told or that's, but that's, then you go back and I'll look in my Bible when I get home and I'm like, it doesn't say that.

There is no, we were just, like you said, it was just, it was pick and choose and taken. And again, I think another part of this, like coming out of it, because I know again, I love, when you talk to people on here, people that have left, those are some of my favorite, I'm again, probably because I love memoirs, that's always my favorite type of book, says, I love hearing people's stories, and I love hearing, because everyone has a very unique story.

I don't have, like I said, a lot of the anger, I think a lot of people carry and I understand why a lot of people carry that anger, because when I hear some of these stories and like the abuse, what their families do, I understand that.

I don't have that personally. What is hard for me is sometimes, I'm not trying to sound like higher than, but it is kind of hard to, when you know, and you've just taken the time to look into, into, is to kind of respect, or to look at other people that are so adamantly in this, no matter what information is presented to them, and they are going to deny you, or they are going to believe wholeheartedly, and this is people that you love, and it's very hard to accept that, to be like, why can't you not open your eyes for one minute?

I've done that my whole life, I've listened to people that are completely different ideas than me, and I can sit there and listen to them, and be like, okay, you know, I have, like I said, cousins that are, they are full atheist, you know, they want nothing to do with God, and they went through some really awful things, some abuse, some, I have seen people that have gotten, like you talked about, good friends that got talked into marriages, and they were awful people, because they were told, you have to marry someone in the message, and they marry these people, and they're, they're, they're, they're awful,

they can be awful. And again, that's not, of course not everybody, that's not, but... But because you were, again, you're told that like everything has to fit this one way. When people hide under this, this persona of, you know, oh yeah, they go to church all the time and they, and I'm like, that's sometimes can be the worst once, you know, and like I said, it, it angers me in a ways that like I see cousins, I have that, again, they're like, I think petrified to get married and they're wonderful people that have so much to

give. They have great careers. They have great, but I think they are scared because again, if you believe, like, well, if I marry this man and he's a absolute monster, I'm like, even if I get divorced, but I can't ever get married again, I'm going to live my life.

My mom has a great friend who has lived her life by herself because her husband left her, you know, and it just, and there's so many things that like I said once again, I'm like, why is everyone so willing to sometimes live in a, a sense of denial or misery that I just chose to not be in, but then like I said, whenever I finally was like, I'm just, I got to, I got to look into this because I have to be able to live comfortably in this new skin of mine, of going, of, of discovering real Christianity.

And real Christianity is not like the, it's a lot different. Yeah. Yeah. So you have just recently come out of this and it's fresh on your memory. For me, it was January 1st, 2012, so this is a long time for me for somebody.

There are a large number of people contacting me who are escaping right now. For the people who are escaping, what advice would you give them for starting out on the journey? Because this is a difficult journey.

I think the biggest, and I get, I know some people they want to throw God out completely. And again, everyone has a different story. And so I've seen that firsthand, but I would say maybe before you do that, like you said, read the Bible yourself, I'll get emotional.

But go to it, like you, you've talked about this, but try different churches. Talk to people that are not, we're not raised in this. Talk to people that are, like I said, you will find a level of Christianity that is not, it is not we are raised with.

And again, I have a lot of love for my family, but I saw it very, very judgmental. I still see it where somehow there's a hierarchy and, you know, of thinking that you're better than it's not like that.

That's not what Christianity is. And it is not judgmental. It does not mean that you have to accept everything. I do not accept everything, but it is also not my job to think less of someone to put myself above them or to think that I am better than them.

That is nothing because I am so far from perfect. Every day I fail and so far from perfection. So I think the biggest is, like you said, you've said it, I think to try different churches, talk to different people, whether they're different faiths or talk to find a group.

And like you said, sit, read the Bible, go down rabbit holes if you need to. Whatever rabbit hole you need to go down, if it helps you, I needed a lot of those. I needed a lot of, like I said, black and white proof. I needed to be able to feel.

And I just, like I said, I'm just there to say that I finally fill a piece that I have never felt in my entire life. And it took me to get to 37 to finally fill a piece with Christianity of being like, oh, wow. Yeah, God, he doesn't care about all this stuff that I thought he cared about.

It's at the end of the day, like he said, it's like, you know, you have the 10 commandments. You've got what did he say the most important is love God and love your neighbors as I was, you know, and that's those are the most important that he gave us to. And we didn't do that a lot of times growing up. Like you said, it was, so I just, like I said, find, find a good support. And even if it's other people that have left or if it's, like I said, you've, you guys have been a big help

and because a lot of times even are my own spouses, I can talk to him, but they don't always understand if they weren't in something like this. Yeah, it's hard. Well, thank you so much for doing this.

This has been fun. Yes, thank you so much, John. Thank you for having me on. Awesome. If you've enjoyed our show and you want more information or to share your story, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at William-Branum.org. From more about the dark side of the new Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR, Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.