Inside Faith Assembly: A Minister's Journey Out

Hello and welcome to another episode have the William Branham Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at William-Branham.org and with me I have my very special guest, Chuck Davis, form a member of Faith Assembly. Chuck it's good to have you on and to have you share your story about your experiences in Faith Assembly and I feel like we know each other only we we've just met today so it feels funny but we have this this unusual bond because I grew up in this faith healing divine healing cult and you did too and although

they were different leaders there were so many similarities that we just you know we connected pretty well and you connected with Chinno and he's excited to hear this so he's probably gonna push that I get this out as fast as I can so anyway good to have you on maybe if you could start by just telling everybody a little bit about yourself. Sure John and thank you for having me on and yeah I heard from Chinno already this morning wishing me well in the podcast. I probably should start with a little bit of background information I think

context is so important whether we're looking at scripture or people's experiences within the church. I'm from a little college town in Salem, West Virginia, North Central part of the state interestingly enough it was headquarters for a denomination called Seventh Day Baptist and so as a kid I grew up people mowed their yards on Saturdays and Sundays and I didn't think a thing about it but it's been interesting with hindsight seeing what I've observed growing up in the EUB Evangelicale and I'd rather church my grandparents raised me because my mom she won't mind got pregnant in high school and they crossed over into

Maryland and got married and anyway my father was an alcoholic and that didn't last very long and the reason I'm telling you this part of the story is because once I got under the faith teaching and claim promises you'll see what happened so anyway my granddad was a barber in the small town everybody loved him he and my grandmother were just the greatest role models as far as living out you know every day practical Christian faith they weren't overly religious we prayed over our evening meals my grandma read the daily bread devotional every day But that was about it. You know, they were involved in the local church. And so then when I was about 14 years old,

some of my peers had already gone forward in one of those revival services that you're familiar with. And they were after me to, you know, give my heart to Jesus. And would you rather have a lot of gold or go to heaven? And I thought, that's a dumb question.

Anyway, I remember as clear as day. Oh, by the way, our little house there in that little town was between the Creek and the railroad tracks. And my grandmother was always keeping an eye on all of us grandkids for the railroad tracks and the Creek. And anyway, spend a lot of time on that Creek bank with my BB gun. And you know, it's funny. I grew up in the same way. I am a tech nerd. I'm a person who is not a wilderness man by no means. But we were raised in that mindset where, you know,

you're mimicking the central figure. So I too had a BB gun later. I had a rifle later. I went hunting. And I did all of these things that, you know, had I had my life to do over with. I would have never done in the first place because I'm not a hunter. And that's, but that's the way I grew up. And I can relate to a lot of what you're saying. Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, it's just amazing again with hindsight, how much, you know, our culture of influences and affects us. So I was walking. Thank you for that

insert because now I'm back on track. My granddad and I were walking the railroad tracks to church. And we were talking about what's it mean to become born again to be a Christian. And he said now, and now Chuck, he said, it has to be your decision. Don't let peer pressure, you know, influence you. It's something you have to decide. So that night, I decided, oh, and by this time our little eub church had merged with the Methodist, I believe, 1968. And I saw even as a preteen, even the trouble that caused with the big denomination swallowing up our little church

and sending, quote, unquote, liberal ministers from the seminary that we did not appreciate. Anyway, they finally sent us a good conservative evangelical. But anyway, that night when I went forward, I thought, you know, is that big curtain up there with the picture? Jesus is that kind of split?

Am I going to see the Holy of Holies? I didn't know what to expect. And of course, I didn't feel anything. But I think even at that time, the minister said, well, this is something, you know, you just have to take my faith. And I'm like, okay, everybody congratulated me. So trying to fast forward

the other transitions I saw in our little church was when some of our youth and our youth fellowship leader received the charismatic experience. And that caused a lot of turmoil as in many churches.

But I thought I saw it as a positive thing, especially among our youth leader, who was always She's late. She never is late anymore. It just seemed like, oh, and then she was leading kids to Jesus in the Sunday school class. And the more Methodist minister at the time did not appreciate that. You don't get saved in Sunday school. You wait for worship service to come forward. No, they don't. They want to be the Moses that led God's people out or whatever it is that's going through their head. Now, you were, unlike some of the youth who were

who were born and raised in Hobart Freeman's sect, who could not go to college, get an education. You were one that went to college before, correct? What, what was that like for you? It was a small American Baptist affiliated school called Alderson, Broadess. Alderson's the town in southwest Virginia where Martha Stewart ended up spending jail time. But anyway, little college, they were, I think, maybe the first in the nation to have the physician assistant program. I was there as a chemistry and math major. Almost became engaged to a Baptist missionary's daughter, her mom and dad were teachers over in what was Zaire at that

time, Africa. But anyway, in that kind of dove tails into my story, faith assembly, church, and Lafayette. But you know, John, I was very, as a young person, 19 years old. I was just very, not really disillusioned, but lacking direction. That's the best term, lacking direction. So, my prayer at that time was, God show me your will for my life. Well, there was a young man by the name of Victor Felix from Puerto Rico who just seemed to exude joy and love and, you know, give you the shirt off his back and I thought, man, I want to, you know, have some of what he's got.

Sounds harmless enough. So, this school required an off campus job experience in your related field of study. And so, my mother had remarried and moved to Kokomo, Indiana. And I thought, well, this would be a good time to spend the summer with her and my siblings and step dad. And so, I sent out applications, the Indianapolis, Lafayette, all over the place for a job related to chemistry.

So, you write at that age where you're trying to get your footing, you're trying to find your pathway in life, putting out the job applications, which job am I going to get? All of the unknowns, usually that's the prime target for one of these groups to recruit people into their body of, you know, whether it's a cult or not. I'm guessing that's whenever this guy reached out to you and you started coming to church? Well, actually, it was the first Monday night that I came home from work, June 6, 1977, eons ago. And I was renting a room from a little old lady who had two houses

and rented out bedrooms to students. Again, those aren't there anymore on Chancel Hill. a parking garage. But as I was sitting down in her little kitchen table to eat, this fella came by the by-way and said, where are you going? He goes to church. I said, a Monday night, he goes, yeah. And I said, can I go with you? Because by this time I thought my Sunday school teacher who had received the charismatic experience was teaching us, if we wanted to know God's will, it would be through his words. So I wanted to study the word of God. He goes, well, you're welcoming

me said, but we get, you know, we get kind of wild in our worship. And I said, that's okay. I got a Pentecostal Uncle or Uncle in Kokomo, church guy, Cleveland, Tennessee. And, you know, I've seen strange happenings up there. So I went with him to our overcomers assembly above that little bookstore. I forget second, third street, something like that. But we would go upstairs and about 200, 250, 300 sometimes, mostly produce students. And Bruce Cansey taught that first Monday night.

And I still have a copy of my handwritten notes from that night. Plastic message of what faith is, Hebrews 111, all of the promises of God, yes and amen. And I thought, well, this is pretty cool.

And of course, before that, Rich was the brother's name. He played piano for the worship service. And he had me sitting right up front between these ladies with their dresses and dwellies and tambourines.

I thought it was pretty cool. And of course, it was scripture after scripture after scripture on, you know, promises and faith. And so I went on that evening with Rich. And we both sit back down with that table and he said, so you want the baptism only spirit? I said, yeah, I think I do. I think I do. And so we held hands. He prayed a prayer and encouraged me to speak in tongues. And I, to this day, I'm just telling you my experience, not trying to say it was God or not God. But I felt

that tingling coming up my arm. And all of a sudden, it took encouraging, but I started, you know, speaking in what I thought was an unknown tongue. And wow, okay. So I just went, we both went back to our separate bedrooms. And I just kept praying in the spirit as the saying goes. And eventually, to come full circle, I saw where Bruce said one of those promises was household salvation.

Where she know he wrote a book about it. And that's a whole other story that Chino is going into. But I thought, you know, Lord, and I didn't have the, you better pray specifically. I just prayed a general prayer. If there's anybody in my family, not say, would you say that was June, 1977. I went home for the 4th of July weekend. And my grandad said, Chuck, your dad, my biological dad, called from the way hospital he was.

Let's get off the bottle and reconnect with you. And I was like, praise God, this thing works. This message works. And again, with hindsight, was that God? I hope so, but I'm not gonna insist, you know what I mean?

I just, and I also think I've come to the point where even in the midst of a cult, he can still move among his people. What do you think? I'm of the same opinion.

There are things that have happened that I just simply can't explain. And some of those that you want to believe it's God, maybe it's not, maybe it's coincidence, but I'm also of the opinion that there aren't a whole lot of coincidences.

There are things, there's a greater power that isn't control. So if you're believing this, then yes, you can believe that. But I too, I look back at some of the experiences that I had and the cult, like it or not, it was destructive, it was dangerous in many ways.

I still have mental health issues from it. And yet at the same time, it molded and shaped who I am today. I would not be the person that I am today. So some good, some bad.

I just accept the good and I try to work through the bad with my therapist. Amen, yes, amen. I love what my favorite therapist said. When Debbie and I, we've been to a handful in marriage counseling and other types of counseling.

But my favorite fellow was a name here in Indianapolis called Wayne Pribble. And at the time, Debbie still felt a lot of her health needs were a spiritual demonic oppression. In this Wayne Pribble, he's retired in New Mexico.

Now, he had been involved in some of the melody and charismatic stuff. So he was somewhat familiar with our background. And he said, Chuck, you know what? He said, because I told him I said, Debbie, he thinks she needs extra-sism deliverance.

And he said, you know what, Chuck? He said, I can work with her in that paradigm. And that was a new word to me, paradigm, a person's belief system. And of course, my first thought was, brother, you better watch out.

You know what happened to those people that tried to cast out demons and do Jesus? I thought, you better tread lightly. But that was a light bulb moment for me, a revelation. And I just, you know, I thought, wow, this guy's so, I mean, why be bothered so much with theological doctrine?

And something Freeman used to say was, what was it, something about, if you've experienced firsthand a demonic, you know, it'll change your theology. Yeah. So, you know, I, after going back to school and finishing my degree, which, again, part of the call was discouraging college degrees.

Lafayette was somewhat of an exception, because Debbie actually made me a list. I haven't shown it to Chino yet. I think she came up with maybe 20 young men because women particularly left their education to have babies.

work at home and submit to their husbands. But no, Debbie came up with a list of 20 young men who finished their degree at Purdue, became engineers and other types of work. They ended up being the ones who would support the rest of us who were barely getting along and couldn't buy groceries or pay bills.

So that was a little different. It's a little bit of a difference there in Lafayette. Yeah, that's what I've been told. One of the things you mentioned, I want to pause here and emphasize, you're talking about marriage counseling. And I think that's so important for people who have been in these types of groups and they finally get out because not everybody can go through it together and remain together in the same way that they were from before. And with good reason, which, you know, it's another discussion for another day, but your personality has been hijacked.

And so the person that you're married to might not actually be the person that you are married to after leaving the cult because the personality's changed just a bit. And I think it's critically important if you start to sense that there is that tension or that difference.

Get marriage counseling and it can help improve your life in many ways. Just to throw this in during our counseling, Debbie and I did the old Myers-Briggs personality test. And she was an ESTJ, you know, extrovert, logic, judgment, whatever. I was totally the opposite, INFP, feeling, intuitive. And so when we came across a Christian book, the title was, when opposites attract and attract was exed out in red like blood. And it said, when opposites attack.

So, oh my, we've had fun along the way. I mean, it's not always been, you know, roses, but uh... I had to do one of those tests for a client. I've mentioned this, I think, on the podcast, but the afterwards the, I don't know what the person's role was on staff. They called me and they said, John, do you realize that your empathy is off the charge? I said, you will literally kill yourself to help another person. And you've got to be careful with this, man. And I'm like, well, they, uh, that's me pretty much. Oh, one of the things that I've learned and I learned

this from Dr. Stephen Hassan working with him. You can take the test when you're in the cult and you get your personality types. You can take the test after the cult and you may even shift an entire category. You can take it again after you've deprogrammed and you may shift to a new category altogether. So as you're going through this, the cult has impacted your personality that much that you're not even the same person after you leave and escape. That said is so true. And with Debbie and I, after being married over 40 years, well, even before that, maybe 25 or 30

out. You rub off on each other too. And we both kind of came back toward the middle if there is such a thing. But yeah. So anyway, After that Experience of reuniting with my dad who by the way remarried had two more kids. I met my dad side of the family if the first time they were very physically affectionate and hugs and And I just really appreciated them. I'm still in touch with them my dad passed away And this is one of those ironies even though he was quote unquote delivered and he gave God the credit at all

A big Help for him overcoming alcoholism was And again not that the denomination matters in some ways it does But he married a free will Baptist woman a free will Baptist He became an elder in the church, but she really took good care of him But the irony is he gave up alcohol He never gave up his cigarettes and he died in his mid fifties of lung cancer with two small children And you know, it was just just a shame that it happened the way it did But it's one of those ironies that I don't even try to figure out or explain or let it bother me

Yeah, I've thought about that quite a bit this this whole faith healing thing It's it's really like a rabbit's foot type God type religion because you you rub the rabbit's foot a little bit You get healed and then you're scared of the next thing that's gonna come because that's the devil and it's coming to attack you and Sure enough, you're gonna get the next thing and the next thing might actually kill you and then those who die whenever they're in In this movement, they just kind of forgotten that that didn't work in that case, but it's gonna work in my case

You know what I mean? So anyway, I came back finished the summer at Great Lakes is a lab tech Made some great friends. I had loved going out to eat after church You know, we had our Sunday morning meetings with a local farmer who had more of a pastor's heart than I think maybe even Bruce Kinsey on Monday night Bill Fouts was a local farmer and he he had a good heart And then Bruce on Monday nights and then Friday nights Dave Hardy Who ended up staying in the apartment that I stayed in with my what would have become my brother-in-law? How west and

and When things weren't going too well for me after leaving the call

Sometimes I was kidding sometimes I was serious. I blamed him my brother-in-law. I said why did you? Hook me into this call because I went back to college in West Virginia and How and a buddy of his they visited me and and you know what I was thinking about this this morning so many of us are And maybe more so in our younger gears, but if you're not getting that love kind is an affection in your own family You're looking for it elsewhere And I think a lot of people to get caught up in calls whether it's Mormonism, Brannanism, Freemanism, whatever

You know, you're looking to be accepted, to be included in an our case, to be elite. I can admit that now. You know, and for me, that's one of the really sad things because exactly what you said, you're, you're always seeking a faction, people who like you, people who treat you like family.

And when you're love bombed into a cult, that's the feeling you get. But once you get inside, it changes over time. And you start to feel less and less of this, especially in the more destructive groups, because they're, I hate to use the word spying, but it's like the preacher preaches this doctrine of all of the things that you should never do.

And you got everybody watching. Are you, are you doing the things that he says you're not doing? And then they talk about it or they scold you and it just doesn't feel like family.

There's no real connection there. And like you said, people are seeking that connection. Well, then the cycle happens because when you're seeking the connection, that's whenever the cult can prey on you. So you get sucked inside.

And then this vicious, this vicious cycle keeps happening. And the sad part about it is the people that it's happening to, they're usually really, really good people. Good, good people, good hearted people. And I've heard Chino say the same thing.

You know, we were very sincere. We were just sincerely wrong. But we would go out to eat afterwards. And again, with hindsight, I think I spent more money on eating out food than I put in the little offering box at the back of the church.

Yeah. So Dave already back to Dave. Good guy. You know, I would get anonymous. We always try to do things anonymously. But I would get envelopes with my name left in the mailbox coincidentally right after he went back to faith assembly up north with a 20, you know, or $30 or he was leaving me a little bit of money.

Because I would actually fix him breakfast on Friday or Saturday mornings before we drove down to New Albany for a house church there. And he said two things to me that stuck with me.

First of all, and you know, scramble these eggs quite so long. They're a little dry. Yeah. And then the other thing was going down to New Albany. I was playing guitar and leading songs and he said, Chuck, I don't want to be the Holy Spirit in your life.

But could you please ramp it up and play a little faster song before I get up to sleep? Yeah, sleep. Yeah, to speak. He said you're putting people to sleep with these slow worship songs.

Whenever I wrote, I moved around from different church to church in our call. When I moved back here, my grandfather, he was so strongly against the fast songs. And man, I just came from the south.

I was listening to music down in Georgia. Everybody's stomping their feet and clapping their hands like a hoedown. And I come here and some guy wasn't aware that it was against church policy to clap your hands and my grandfather stood up.

You could see the anger in his face that some guy in the crowd has clapped his hands and Well, we were singing, I'll fly away. So if you can picture this, he brought the speed down to where the song probably lasted 15 minutes.

We were singing it that slow. And it was painful. And that's the level of control that these people have over the people. Oh yeah, and I'm sure you've heard it. At some point, it fades assembly, Dr. Freeman felt that minor chords were not good.

Yes, we had to avoid the minor chords. So yeah, every little tiny thing, you know, it was my goodness. I'm trying to picture somebody who, you know, they're off the street. There's this church on the corner.

I want to go visit it. They walk into faith assembly and hear a whole sermon against minor chords. I mean, it like screams we are a cult. You know, one time my grandparents were concerned that I wasn't a cult because they were reading some of the newspaper articles of what was going on at faith assembly and let me quickly insert if I can get myself back on track after inserting it.

As Debbie and I have learned more about things that went on in our Lafayette assembly, it breaks our heart because we were not aware of it while we were in there. It was kept hidden.

It was swept under the rug and it just breaks my heart to hear the pain and death, not often, but once is too much, you know, especially when it involves children and it just broke my heart.

But my grandparents came up to visit Lafayette assembly and I'm not sure if it was Bruce that night or who was teaching. But they were, my grandma told me later after the meeting, she said, Chuck, I was looking around and saw all these, you know, babies in their car seats in the aisles and whatnot and all the exuberant praise and clapping and worship and she said, I just thought to myself, this reminds me of being at a basketball game.

And she said, no longer had I thought that to one of the ladies in your church spoke up and said, does say it the Lord, I am well pleased with your praise. Do not people of the world cheer and clap at sporting events at that?

My grandma said, I'm glad I wasn't thinking anything bad about your church. Yeah. You know, I've mentioned this too. The part of my coming out of this was, I went down to one of the churches down in Georgia and I was there in the auditorium and I had a son who just couldn't sit for those two hour services, you know.

So I carry him downstairs. This particular church had a men's room where you could, the men could take their children down there, which was unusual. And I get down there, I'd never been down there and I go down, there's this nice leather recliner and leather couch and legos everywhere and a big flat screen TV on the wall.

And I'm, this is pretty nice. So I let the kid play and I'm kick back, you know, watching the TV with my hands brought behind my head. And suddenly, the thought hit me. This really looks like a bunch of a stage act that everybody's hyped up in this emotion and the...

the preachers trying to play on their emotions. That thought went through my head and I was still in the called and it wasn't long until I snapped out of it and I'm like this is just wrong.

Oh no absolutely yeah because as I've heard you talk on your podcast that music has such a powerful effect. So since we're talking a little bit about music I'll go on another side story tangent. When I was in junior high in high school I took a little guitar lesson and my granddad blesses our barber. I'm probably thinking now that as good a man as he was he may not have reported all this cash in comfort taxes but he's always saved up enough to take my grandma on vacation and they would let me tag along and but after my guitar lessons I was asked to join a little garage

band actually by the Baptist preacher's son and my granddad blesses our he took me to the music store and I ended up he ended up helping me buy a nice Gibson SG cherry wood finish humbucking pickups and I mean it was a sweet guitar and then through the newspaper we found a fellow selling a twin reverb amp head and a custom built speaker cabinet and we went you know and he paid cash for everything. In fact my stepdad recently said yeah your granddad would pull a wallet out of his left pocket with fives and ones and another wallet out of his right pocket with 20s and 50s and

another like a third wallet with hundreds. It's like I don't carry that kind of cash on me these days but anyway cash was king back then and I'll interrupt you right here it's funny because I know people in the brand of cult that was like this when you're in this conspiracy theory mindset where you think the world is ending the government's going to crack down against the cults we have this thing against the government right and it's widespread not just brand of my it's not just Hobart Freeman it's widespread and they will purposefully evade their taxes because they don't want to

fund to the government that's the way this works. I'm not going to mention names but I have them and they should do the same thing. Oh yeah and you know I even remember when I first came to Lafayette and I can't remember now if it was before or after getting into the cult but I didn't want to use an ATM machine. I was afraid of electronics and technology course now I love and embrace it all of course we all have a little concern maybe about AI but back to the guitar story Debbie's going to laugh when she hears this she knows the story. I had a crush on one of the

gals in the church in the cult and and I won't mention names either people from that church you'll know exactly who I'm talking about But short, cute little gal and she is believing God for an acoustic guitar and I decided I was going to trade in my 74 Gibbs and SG for an acoustic guitar for her and I regret it today, but I did and I and I gave it to her anonymously You know, I made sure you know she got it without any connections back to me and and she ended up marrying a Brother from Canada tall handsome fella, you know and wrote off into the sunset

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And as always be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching On behalf of William-Brannum Historical Research we want to thank you for your support You know you're talking about the guitar and it made me think back to my years. I was probably Gosh, that's probably 14 15 and the cult when it began My grandfather gave me my first guitar and I learned to play it just almost instantly that night I was playing off-ly away on it and As I grew older it got to be a game. I would go into a music store

I would just pick up a random instrument that I'd never touch before And I would see how long would it take me to learn how to play this That's it there and pick on it until usually by the time I left the store I was playing whatever instrument I picked up and got to be quite a bit of fun. Well a little bit later probably

It might have been 15. I built this contraption my friends called it the Collins wire But basically I had gone to yard sale and I bought a bunch of old old junk I bought two old tape decks Telephone a few other things and I took them all apart and I made this thing that was my recording studio And so I'd record into one I would play an instrument and sing Then I think you had to go the opposite direction. So I'd record into the other one while the first one was playing And I would add another instrument and another voice and in the end I had a four-part harmony full band

And I was giving these recordings out and You know most of the churches I went to I usually had a couple in my pocket Well the adults were just you know loving it. They like the music. Although I listened to it recently It's not that good, but if you're in the Pentecostal religious Jen and you can play and sing, somebody's gonna listen to it.

That's usually the way it works. And I'll never forget this girl walked up and she said, can I have one too? And my heart grew so big and nothing happened from it. But you get that, you know, you get that entertainer of contaction.

Oh boy, I can impress the girls, right? Nothing ever happened so it didn't impress her that much apparently. And again, the music wasn't that great. But years later, I had people in South America who came to me and they were bringing one guy brought the actual cassette tape that he had gotten years ago from somebody else.

And he said, I've heard you, John, you play this music. I've listened to your songs all the time and I'm like, wow, I had no idea and I'm in other countries. I'm famous, right?

And then after I left the cult, it was kind of funny because this guy walked up and he says, I've got your music. And I said, wow, you do. And this was a guy who's still in the cult.

And I thought, well, that's a good way to begin a conversation. Now we've got something in common. And he says, I don't agree with a single thing you're doing. I'm like, oh, oh, at that point I had fully exposed random as a false prophet, all the prophecies that have failed, all of the doctrines where they came from, some of the clan information.

At this point, I'm like his number one enemy, but he says, I don't agree with a single thing you do. And I said, well, I'm sorry. And he says, but I do like your music.

So music connects people in ways that I think it's very powerful, it really is. And that's one of the things that I do miss about the religion, the music was really, really good. But you're mentioning all of these names.

And Chino and I have been going through the whole series in the podcast and names like Bruce Kinsey. I've heard that name over and over and over again, but I've heard him from Chino's perspective of all of the cult-related stuff and to hear the personal side.

It's just, this is entertaining to me. Here's a little insight into Bruce Kinsey and how different he was from his father-in-law. At some point, probably after the guitar, I shared, and again, regretfully, my heart with her that I thought she was God's choice for my wife.

And she was upset because by this time I was acknowledged third tier five-fold minister in the church. So she went to Bruce and said, Bruce, what am I gonna do? This five-fold minister believes I'm to be his wife.

And in other prophetic churches, he would have probably tried to give her a word or say, well, you better marry him then. But no, Bruce said, well, how do you feel about it? He said, do you reciprocate the affection that it could say?

No, he said, well, that's your answer right there. And I just thank Bruce for setting us both on the right path, the right trail. Debbie, by the way, this leaves me down another, it's all connected, trail.

I was sharing this apartment in Lafayette with her older brother, how and I'd love to get him on your podcast I want to get him to meet up with me in Chino sometime because he lives down in the summer shade area of Kentucky and He's a good good guy, but He's still I won't say Or if he recorded but anyway Not all of us have been totally deprotored. I thought just say that So he was finishing up electrical engineering degree at Purdue and so he finished and then his youngest brother Came to live at the apartment and it was fine with having me as a roommate. I got along pretty much with everybody and

And so Brad he was a little different though. He didn't Just do everything as would be expected. He he wore tight jeans with You'll skin cowboy boots. He collected different types of cowboy boots and And he he kind of had a little bit of a Sontor in his walk and I'm sure we all probably thought he had a spirit of pride, but we all didn't didn't know it But he was sontor up front to the microphone and the Lord shows me. There's a lady here with the two things You know he he felt like he had to order knowledge. Well, that didn't go very well with Bruce for some reason or another

Probably because he didn't fit you know the look the mode and Bruce told him you know I don't think that's word of knowledge and anyway Brad ended up leaving the church before he did I was uncomfortable with him now. I appreciate it. He

He was stripped of a near right off of anybody he talked to he wouldn't let you just Whatever the word is I have trouble with my vocabulary anymore, but you know false impressions false whatever You know he would just cut right through it and we'd even talk about So how much of Bruce's message tonight? Do you think was annoying to 60% half 80 90 But while that Brad and I were rooting together. He started dating against church rules A young gal freshman over for do tiny little thing I can remember her name, but I won't say it

She's from Ohio Roman Catholic background, but He was actually trying to witness to her about the Romans road and being saved and he said chuck every time I bring up the Bible or Jesus to her she goes into a trance. I'm like what the heck you know and And he's like he's like I can't bring her over to the apartment when you can pray for Like well, let's talk to some other brothers and interestingly enough. I should I didn't say well Let's take her to the leadership You know, it's like well, let's get some other brothers to pray and I'll fast a few days

We'll see what happens and but he brought her up the apartment and she said on the couch, I remember it clears day. And he and I were in office chairs in front of her and he tried to get her to go to Romans, we had our Bibles with us.

And yeah, her eyes glazed over and she went there anymore. Or if we start speaking in tongues and rebuking spirits and at one point God's honest truth, John. And again, I'm to the point now where I think some of this, if not all, can be psychology.

But at the same time, I don't wanna dismiss the spiritual realm and the reality of demons. But this little girl got up off of the couch. Brad was over six feet tall, lift and weights, probably taking protein drinks will say.

And she started choking him. She put her hands around his neck and he could not get her hands off of his neck, like she had supernatural strength. And I'm just over here praying in spirit and I go to touch her, lay my hand on her shoulder.

And I don't know if I touched her or barely touched her, or whatever, but she just sunk in the floor, like a wet rag. And of course, I wanted to think, oh, that's pretty cool, but I knew I'd better not think that because then pride would enter in.

So, but she went on the floor too long, few minutes or whatever, when she got up, she goes, how do I get here? And we told her and she sat back on the couch and we let her through a prayer of salvation, baptism of the spirit.

And to this day, I've never seen a person's count in its change. Because again, during the time she was in a trance, she actually, we didn't record it, but she actually spoke in guttural voices.

She said, well, and she would go, she would flip back and forth from, I'm gonna kill you to, hey guys, it's just the three of us here, you know, and try to seduce us.

And you know, we're just closed our eyes, braiding the spirit, whatever. So anyway, that was the only time I felt like that was anything I ever experienced, close to the reality of demonic possession and deliverance.

She went back to Ohio and her Catholic priest said that couldn't have happened because these guys were not Catholic exorcists. You know, it's funny how many different religions have this kind of thing. There's a, and I go back and forth, I know on the Pentecostal Charismatic side, it's casting out demons, but if you look at the psychology behind it, well, the Hindu priests can do the same thing.

Are they casting out a demon? Or are they injecting a demon, you know? So there's this real gray area, but having had family that had mental health issues and watching how the countenance can change, the thoughts, the speech, all of the different things, whenever there's an issue.

And then carry that forward just a little bit. The Pentecostal Charismatic movement will say that the mental health issues are also demons. And so yes, if you go in that circle, it is, but does the medicine cure the demon?

I don't know. So I kind of go back and forth, but. I've never witnessed exactly what you said of what witnessed a few things similar. And in the end, for me, it's like this.

If it works, I'm all for helping somebody, if you can help somebody. And if it makes them worse, then you have to ask some questions. And in the way that is done in the charismatic movement, I've actually seen both sides of this.

I've seen it get much better. I've seen it get much, much worse. Yeah, and that goes back to that therapist, as Tonya Bout, that talked about working with people in the belief system repair time that they embrace.

And Debbie and I now know of friends who were in the call that wouldn't take an antidepressant, for example. And after escaping, would get on a mild antidepressant and just improve their life tremendously.

And so yeah, I totally agree with that. And someone recently I told my bottom line now is somewhat, I guess, I'm more of a utilitarian. And that's what you were talking about. If it works for them, if it doesn't harm other people, God bless them, you know, I mean, it's not very orthodox maybe, but you know, I just, I think there's such a great freedom and I took my freedom too far.

When I took a few years in West Virginia to sew the wild oats, I never sewed as a young man in vibing in moonshine live music and dancing. I won't say loose women, but dancing with women.

And my friends here in West Virginia say, Chuck, you are so blessed that Debbie is such a saint to have put up with you through all of that. So, I'm so thankful for her, she is a sweetheart.

Oh my gosh, but yeah, I mean, the freedom I was trying to allude to was not feeling like God's gonna strike me with lightning if I say the wrong thing, think the wrong thing.

When I went through my theological faith crisis, I just said, you know what, even if there's no God in no afterlife, I still have to get along right now, day to day. Thank God I didn't stay there, but yeah, I still believe in God.

And I also probably have compartmentalized things and have that, what do you call it, cognitive dissonance or whatever, but I'll tell people, I still believe in Jesus in my heart, but my brain doesn't always agree.

You know, and that's something that not a lot of people will talk about, and especially if you, like if you've never been in this kind of background and you go to a church where there's a minister who is unfamiliar with how that background can affect you, they will take it to extremes, but that's a real problem because the God that you were taught isn't the God of the Bible.

And so as you're connecting with your spiritual, And you start to read the Bible and you start to make those connections and you realize the difference That's fine But then you read that one trigger verse from the Bible that takes you back to the other God and you're like, I don't know about this Your head will I'm still I've been out we left January 1st 2012 I still have that kind of thing happening to me. Maybe not daily anymore, but it's frequently Something that helped me well a lot of people helped me along the way

When Debbie and I and in the timing was I guess worked in our favor You know Debbie and I married in June of 84 fremen died in December of that year I threw out my whole time in the Lafayette church called I always felt and had a heart to be a missionary in Appalachia and That's one of the things that brought Debbie and I together when she started coming up on Sunday mornings and Bringing cookies and pie and fixing meals for her brother and I She was winning my heart and she took interest in my family photos from West Virginia fact our first date

Wasn't a date, but it was a group event of I don't know six or eight young people from the church we took a whitewater raft trip in West Virginia and That I call that our first date. We did whitewater rafting together so but Yeah, so then we yeah, we had our first two Babies at home with a midwife in Lafayette then we had two more with them midwife and a medical doctor in West Virginia who had delivered a bunch of babies in Africa on the mission field and She delivered our first fourth child in the home she brought her nurse with her and so you know, this was part of our

Getting out and away from the cult like thinking Accepting help from medically trained people and

So I think where I was trying to go with this story is

The people who helped me during our time in Parsons, West Virginia, Texas County a Local Methodist pastor named Tal Road truck. He and his wife were spirit-filled Ministers and they had a little home group and this was the first United Methodist Church So the church was not charismatic or pinocostle and He really helped get Debbie and I back on track got me back in school Prior to that We were working with a church of God Cleveland Tennessee pinocostle church in the same town But I got in trouble there because Brother Rhodes bless us art He and I would go fishing and have a great old time,

but he had, I forget which somewhat famous quartet came into our little town and their giant bus and sang and he sent them to the basement while he made the appeal for money offering for them.

And here I am in my spiritual pride and I stand up and this was not the custom in that church, but I stood up and I said, let's say at the Lord, I'm not here for your pocket books and your money, I'm here for your heart.

Oh, I gotten so much trouble. So anyway, they didn't really say a lot, but when I showed up the next Sunday morning to take the youth to their Sunday school class I was teaching as they were dismissing the classes, the youth will now go to their class with sister roads.

It wasn't for their truck anymore. Anyway, yeah, how road truck and here's the irony with how. He believed in divine healing, but his theology was going to be with Jesus was the ultimate healing.

Well, to me, that still doesn't make logical sense. To me, healing is being cured of your illness. But the nicest kind is most Christian main, you're everyone in a past way early with a wife and children of stomach cancer.

That's so sad. And you know, it really doesn't matter if you're in the divine healing crowd or if you're in a divine healing cult or if you're in one of the churches that is against this sort of thing, or if you're in between, like it sounds like how it was, it doesn't matter.

You're still going to have a body of people, some of whom are going to be sick, some of whom are going to die of their sicknesses, and others who get better. It's just a, you know, it's a fact of life because we're humans and we live in human bodies.

Anyway, how is a good guy? And he helped me back on track to finish my bachelor's degree and he warned me at that time. He said, Chuck, I'm getting ready to leave the Methodist Church because of their stand on social issues.

I'm going to join the CMA, Christian Missionary Alliance. Yeah. Which I'm learning more about through your podcast. And he said, do what you can in the Methodist Church, which I may, I went as far as a licensed local pastor.

First in the West Virginia Conference and then out here in Indiana. So I end up with a couple little churches in Anderson, Colonial United Methodist that again, are any of the ironies as to my most recent knowledge which had been years ago, folded for lack of attendance, hopefully not because of me, and sold to a full gospel group.

So you are a pastor in the Faith Assembly, Sacked and one of the satellite groups. And you have now experienced both the cult life and the non-cult life as it relates to church, worldviews, et cetera.

What advice would you give people who are leaving the cult and they're trying to find their pathway? Yeah, that's a great question. And again, I don't know who it was. I heard, say recently, maybe Chino, maybe you.

whoever. One size doesn't fit all. I am still a big believer in trying my best and would suggest others try their best too. And it's confusing, especially when you're just leaving a call, but I won't say be let of the spirit. I'll say be led by your heart, by your intuition. And I liked I watched your podcast last night with Laura Lynn, I think her name. And she was talking about the difficulty of going back into a church after leaving a call. And that you might just want as what happened with Debbie and I in a healthy way, find

a nice home group somewhere, you know, find some healthy Christians that you can meet together within a home. I just love the intimate setting of a home group. And there's no denominational hierarchy to, you know, rob you of the ties and offerings and force doctrine upon you, but find a good, a good fellowship. Some of our friends when they left Lafayette went to a mega church Ashley, which I've never been comfortable with. A small town guy and anything huge mega. But grace community church here in Carmel, Indiana, again, the emphasis upon grace and the cried all families I'm thinking of found a healing environment there in that church. So it's

not like you can't find a healthy church that understands where you've been and help you. And you don't want to probably wouldn't be comfortable with the term deprogramming as you're leaving. But just heal, heal your wounds. There will always be scars. But yeah, just find like-minded, kind, generous, non-judgmental people that you can fellowship with, read your Bible, study the Bible, share opinions in a safe space. Well, that's very good advice. And one thing I'll add to it, which you've already mentioned, if you find one of these places, one of these churches that has the home group concept. And you start meeting in the homes of each other. It's really hard to have

an authoritarian figure in a home. Because if they start to act like that, you just go to a different home. Because as people, you can recognize the, you know, some people are flawed and have have some issues. I'll just say it like that. The irony of what I just said is if you're in a cult and you go to a cult church and somebody starts to do this, you get sucked in. So it's such an odd balance. And it just goes to show that when, when you are aware of your surroundings and you can critter critically think, you'll make a good decision. In the home group, somebody acts up,

you go to a different house. You should do the same thing in a church. So that's, that's all I do. But anyway, this, this has been fun. Thank you so much for doing this. Certainly.

If you enjoyed our show and you want more information or to share your story, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at www.William-Branum.org. For more about the dark side of the new Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.