Experience Over Theology- Why The Latter Rain Never Ended

Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Brant, I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Brant, at William-Brandom.org, and with me I have my co-host and friend, Jed Hartley, son of a false prophet, and former member of the International House of Prayer.

Jed, I'm a little bit excited for today's episode. This is something that honestly, I can't believe I haven't thought about it enough to do a podcast yet, but it ties into another thought that I had before.

And what we're talking about today is, did the latter reign actually end? Which, if you know all of the history and you know how the movements work and how they're all connected, that's a fascinating question, but I'm going to pose it as even slightly further back.

There was a point in time in which I learned that, see, in Brantom's life story, in Brantom's bios, he claimed in the later versions of a stage persona that he was a Baptist minister, he encountered Pentecostalism, he became a Pentecostal, praise God, and then this thing happened, and it was the post-World War II healing revival. I later learned that he was actually in a cult before the cult. He was in a cult by his mentor, Roy Davis, who we've mentioned.

All right. Davis was creating his own Pentecostal sect, the Pentecostal Baptist Church of God. Davis gets hold off the prison, Brantom becomes this big name, and then I'll find this one newspaper article where Brantom is holding a revival under the auspices of the Pentecostal Baptist Church of God, long after Davis is out of the picture. And the question that I had at that point was, well, was the message, which is what we called our group, was the message just a continuation of what Roy Davis had built. And now, as I think through this, IHOP KC really

is, if you understand it, it's really Brantomism 2.0, which would be a continuation of Laterane, which then would be a continuation of Davis. And if you understand the grand scheme of the hierarchy of things, that puts Davis actually at the top of this mess. So what did the Laterane actually end?

Well, it certainly sounds like no. It's just the answer to that because, yeah, I mean, the very fact that I grew up in a community without knowing any of, when I stumbled upon your research a couple of years back before we had even met and start talking. I was so shocked with how familiar a lot of the pre iterations were of the things that I had experienced at IHOP.

So specifically the latter brain movement, understanding William Brannum, understanding the rhetoric behind it, understanding the prophetic strategy. I mean the use of prophets and the way that the Brannum wouldn't speak and speak about the end times specifically.

I think on your website it led me on this long rabbit hole. This was way back. This is when I was just first kind of unraveling stuff. I had done a lot of unraveling about what I had experienced in my life, but just not knowing how it was connected to the larger scheme.

And I remember listening to a bunch of Brannum's sermons and the eerie way in which it reflected a lot of my pickles sermons and my father's sermons. Or at least maybe not my father's sermons, but my father's rhetoric. And certainly Bob Jones rhetoric. It felt very eerie to be like, oh this is where it came from.

And so I mean certainly in the 90s and the early arts, IHOP was very much the living embodiment of Brannumism 2.0 and the latter brain movement. And it's this whole idea that in the end times there will be this outpouring of the Holy Spirit that shall bring about the Joel's army, the young individuals who speak in tongues and prophesy, dream dreams, have visions, heal people.

And all of that was very much the world that I grew up in. And I am pretty confident. It's different now because as much as I see it from the outside, I'm looking for that from the outside looking in.

I think with IHOP, I think with Bethel, I think that there are at least the core elements of that are still there to this day. And in fact, we might be seeing a weird evolution of it because in the last 10 years, there's been a lot of political dominionism that was always a part of, I mean Roy Davis, like you talked about, was obviously involved with political.

So like at the very beginning, there is there is a marriage between the sort of political movements in the United States and these spiritual movements. So those were not always disconnect. but obviously right now we're seeing a greater manifestation of that, to use, to use NAR language. There's a greater manifestation of that connection between the political and this sort of dominionistic agenda of the latter-ranked movement to bring about the the millennial kingdom and that's that's the whole idea of Bethel where they don't they don't structure around and times theology as much as IHOP does explicitly, but they structure around

millennial theology, which is just the same thing. It's just that this is a new era of when Jesus has returned and I think of their theology, their eschatology is loose at best because I don't think a lot of people there know exactly what they believe of the end times whether Jesus has returned or the millennial kingdom is already here and the reign is beginning and I think that different people would interpret that differently even at Bethel and I don't think that they have like a hard fast doctrine that they have their people adhere to. Unlike Bethel or sorry I'm like

IHOP, IHOP definitely had like this harder doctrine that was malleable and loose and would change every few years to fit whatever prophecies, but regardless I think the overarching themes of the latter-ranked movement are clearly still present today and it's just one of those like it's like the cold, it comes back every winter and you get it again and it's slightly different so it's not the same because it's adapted and whatnot but it and it really does, I mean I think that that's an apt analogy because it is seasonal in a way like all of these movements

hinge themselves on revival and they need new outporns of the Holy Spirit to sort of revitalize their communities and re-indctinate young people because there's new waves of young people and you'll see this, we've talked about this many times before but there's this sort of cycle of young 18 to 25-year-olds or even younger honestly um 15 to 25-year-olds will come to the places like Bethel and IHOP get indoctrinated, give much of their young adult lives, find someone to get married to like much of their early lives will be defined by their time at Bethel or IHOP

or Y-Wam or some of these other similar new apostolic reformation churches, morning star of the like, they will give so much emotional, spiritual,

mental energy to these organizations. Get burnt out, there will be a low, and then there's a whole new revival with new faces that suck in, you know, the next, not even a full generation down, just a half step down.

And I've seen it happen, and it seems certainly, so I think we talked about it last time, maybe we didn't, but I hop right now is absolutely gearing up for their new cycle. So they've tried to weather the storm with everything that's going on with Mike Bickel.

They've tried to distance themselves from Mike Bickel. I believe that we had this one of our previous podcasts talked about this, but everything on their web page has been scrubbed to make it look like Mike Bickel never happened, but yet all of the rhetoric is still there.

All of Mike Bickel's terminology, his hand print is still there. It's all his phrases and weird, like he had a very specific way of talking, and it just clearly just plastered all over the page, straight up lies about the history of how I hop was started, and then Joseph Taylor and some of the other leaders who are trying to rekindle I hop right now, are reopening I hop university, clearly trying to bring in a lot of 16, 17, 18, 19-year-olds who have probably grown up in a very religious, conservative community, probably in a fringe charismatic community

who just have been told not to go online and not listen to someone like John Collins or Mike Winger or these other people who have been talking about all of this stuff, because obviously John Collins is being used by the demonic agenda to tear down the millennial kingdom or whatever it is. Anyway, all that to say is we're seeing it, we're on the precipice of a new attempt at a revival movement that is going on with I hop right now, whether it's successful in the ways that it has been in the past or not, you know,

only time will tell, I certainly hope not, but we've seen this cycle happen, especially with even the, I know that there's a bunch of people probably listening to this and who are like, wow, all of this exposure has been happening recently.

That's not new for this community. Like, happened with Paul Kane, happened with Bob Jones, it happened with all of these different leaders who fell. I do feel like this is, there has been a greater effort and there's been some more sort of exposure, more salient exposure and it's certainly more accessible.

I'll say it maybe like that because I don't want to diminish the work of people in the past who have done a lot of good work to expose some of these charlatans. But I believe now because of technology and because of some of the effort that's been given, like I think that there is greater access to this exposure where people can look up Mike Bickel and Bill Johnson and Chris Falatin and see a whole laundry list of things of being like, oh man, here are the very concrete issues with Bethel or with IHOP.

So I'm hoping that we will, I'm hoping we're seeing the end of the latter right movement. Hopefully the rains are stopping and we're going to get a spell for a while here. But I mean, yeah, the movement is not dead.

I look at it more like we're going to see a low in the time between, it does it again. So you've mentioned so many things there. One of the things that I'll mention is this, when I was studying Davis and at that time, I had no idea, seven mountains band-aid, when I was studying Davis and all of the things that he stood for and I was seeing so many similarities in the church world today and I was thinking this just doesn't, how does this one guy who nobody's ever heard of, who was the head of the clan,

how does he fit into this picture because there's so many similarities. And then once I started to understand seven mountains, mandate, I found this, I think I've shared with you, I found this group called the Supreme Kingdom.

After the clan disbanded, Davis and a few others, they were part of this movement that was starting, it was short-lived, but it's called the Supreme Kingdom. They were rising up specifically in opposition to the things that they viewed with, viewed as problematic with the education system.

So it was really a kingdom who was going to drive out those who were invading our education system. But that exploded into an array of other things. The clan also had, I don't know if you know this, the clan produced movies and they published those movies and churches.

So they were also attacking the entertainment industry. They were deeply embedded in politics. If you go through it, the actual seven mountains, a mandate, every ass, aspect of it was in the Supreme Kingdom, which would have been what Brannum was trained with. Now, combine that with the research that I've done with Steve Montgomery on the converging apostasy, all of the threads of spiritualism, mysticism, all of these things that came into later reign. Well, Davis claimed that he was a converted spiritualist, and he claimed that he knew how spiritualism worked, he saw the difference in Christianity, and

he basically, if you understand what he's saying with this, he's saying that I know what parts of it are real and use for godly good, and what parts are evil and come from Satan, and started integrating the mystery type religion into what Brannum would have been trained in. Brannum took it forward and said, I know how to move bracelets with my mind. I know metaphysics. I have an angel walking on the platform with me. I can take every spirit in this building under my control. What he's doing essentially, and that's just five of a hundred examples, he's basically taking elements of spiritualism and putting them into

the movement. It went into the laterane movement. Now, here's where it gets odd. If you study just the doctrines of laterane, compare it to IHOPKC, no, they're different. Study just the doctrines of Brannumism, compare it to laterane, to today's NAR, no, they're different.

If you understand the agendas behind them, the agendas pushing the whole movement forward, those agendas haven't really changed. They have just taken parts of theology off, added new parts in, changed theology to make it more appealing to the masses. Basically, they've taken this ugly vehicle, and they put new paint jobs on it each time it needed a new paint job. It's madlib prophecies. You remember the game madlib where you would say, okay, give me a noun, give me a verb, give me a, you know, whatever, and then you read off, and you fill them into some story, and without knowing what the nouns are verbs, how they're

connected, you get this, this, you know, usually weird, bizarre, funny story. I mean, that's these prophecies. It's like, okay, take this noun out, take this specific, we have this like template of a prophecy, and we have a template of the intention and the uses of the prophecy that is going to remain the same, but change it out for instead of, I mean, it's funny because throughout Pentecostalism, you know, different people were pretending to be the spirit of Elisha re-incarnated. I mean, you hadbrainum and at least not dowry. There's so many, Frank Sanford, he claimed he was Elijah,

Dowie claimed he was. Paul, I'm went to both of those compounds and then he started claiming that he's the new Elijah, trying to take over science. It just went on and on. I found this one article where it said, the newspaper reports said, when will we stop this nonsense?

I'm paraphrasing, when will we stop this nonsense? We have these people claiming to be David or Moses or Elijah and people just flock to him as though they are. When are they gonna wake up and say that wait a minute, this is not right.

I remember early, probably early teens, we would, I was talking with various, I can't remember exactly who it was, but I was in these communities at one thing, one thing was this big conference that I hop would put on that was, I mean, thousands and thousands of people would come to Bartle Hall in Kansas City, which is a huge sort of conference center.

I literally think that they're probably we're like 100,000 people at one point, at its highest,

maybe more like 60,000, but in that range of tens of thousands of people would come to these giant conferences and these huge conferences still happen. It's just not necessarily one thing anymore. But during those times, I remember getting really into the frenzy of the prophetic and times movement and there was this whole, because the left behind series had come out too and so me and other young adults in this community had really weird and times eschatology that were built by Hodges of things we had seen on the left behind series move, the Kirk Cameron, less behind series movies,

but also stuff that we had been taught at IHOP and we believed that there wasn't gonna be a rapture before the tribulations. So there's all these different beliefs, but I remember there is this narrative about two prophets who will come back and they will be prophets who are there sort of like

John the Baptist was heralding in the tribulation as John the Baptist heralded in Jesus and I remember the left behind series they there's two prophets and they're in front of the Welling Wall and Jerusalem and they start break, I don't have any recollection of why this was, but they start breathing fire when don't have any recollection of why this was attacked by the military and so this is the idea is that there's going to be prophets who could breathe fire and that there's going to be specifically these two prophets, one who was the sort of spirit of Elijah who was reincarnated. And I remember us talking about who's it going to be

because we're so we were so conditioned to believe that we were at the precipice of it. Obviously it was going to be coming from IHOP or at least Kansas City, was that's where these prophets were going and it's going to happen in the next, you know, 5, 10, 15 years so it has to be either one of us and so we were sort of even being conditioned to be like it could be me. I could see in an alternate in a very bleak alternate reality I am out there right now pretending to be the prophet of Elijah because that was what I was like

groomed and conditioned for but I also remember us being like, is it going to be Mike Bickel and then we were like, is it going to be Bob Jones? No, he's too old so we didn't think that it was going to be Bob Jones because Bob Jones was too old but and he passed away shortly after so you know we got that one right but I think so anyway all of that to say the going back to like the madlibs thing it's just you're seeing prophecies about the same prophecy about the prophet of Elijah just the person who it is is replaced every 10 years there's a different person who's

placed in there and prophecies about the end times the date it just changes every 10 years and prophecies about spiritual giftings and healing and speaking in tongues and all of this sort of thing I think that that has evolved too like the manifestations of the Holy Spirit what it looks like you you know you have the Toronto revival where you get these more sozo holy spirit spectacular fun whimsical I mean they are not I think that I've spoken extensively on this but I want to be very clear they are not fun or whimsical or low stakes like they it is very intense real stuff

that that definitely has caused a lot of scarring on a lot of people but the sort of iteration of that movement changed and I mean we're going to when you see it again too there's there's going to be a new generation and there's going to be a new madlibs script for what it what it looks like you know whenever I try to determine did ladder rain continue or did it end the problem that you always run into it This brick wall of history that's not quite written in transparency, I'll just say like that.

In fact, some of it's written completely opposite of what the actual history was, but if you look at the movement in large, the movement spread throughout all of the Pentecostal organizations, and you had some larger organizations like the assemblies of God, they put their hands up and said, no, we don't want this 1948, right whenever this exploded into the big thing, they put their hands up and said, no, this is wrong, we're not going to do it. And if you only look at that one piece of history, you think, okay, what may have stopped in the assemblies of God? But what the history doesn't accurately portray is that there are large

portions of the assemblies of God that continued with it. The assemblies themselves split over it, and so you'd add half of the group still went on with a lot of rain, they became the independent assemblies of God. Then you had like in the state of Indiana, Indiana became a rogue state for the assemblies, and you had people on the house floor in the assemblies of God, defending laterane and brannemism, even though they were still in the assemblies, because they were still pushing the same doctrines. So the waters get really muddied, but if you look at the

core agenda doctrines, I don't know how to phrase that, it's like there were political, religious, all kinds of different agendas that came in in the form of doctrines, some of which you're familiar with, the manifested sons of God. So that came forward, it went through laterane, it became, it was a fundamental part of laterane, went forward into New Apostolic Reformation, so this really didn't die out. So, in other words, you have all of these streams of agenda doctrines that made it into charismatic movement and to some of it, even to the Jesus movement, which gets really weird. I've not yet deciphered how much of it into what extent,

but you had some rogue agents in the Jesus movement, some of which were brannemites. Then you had others, mainstream, who kind of separated from it, but yet at the same time, some of the doctrines came through, many were filtered, but what's weird about IHOP KC is they all just came to merge back in. Why did they merge back in? I can say that Paul Cain was probably behind a lot of it, but not all of it. I lived in Kansas for a while. It makes me to believe that there were enough brannemite, influenced groups, maybe not full-on brannemites, but enough

that were influenced, that they said, we're still standing behind some of these doctrines. Now let's support it, let's build it, let's grow it, and IHOP KC just came to be. Well, and so with Mike Bickle, what I've heard and the context that I have for the community that he grew up in, and I'm talking childhood grew up in, because he very much was when he was like 1890 he already was in creating his own sort of, like he was a youth pastor very young and started, he was very quick to be his own sort of guide and whatnot. But the community that he

was raised in, he, his, from what I understand and what I've heard is that his stepfather was a Freemason, then was what part of one of those, and was the, I think it's called the Stag Grand Stag or something, they have different titles for, and his father had a title within one of these sex and very tightly tied to some of the KKK and some of the, the, the clan and, um, and if you see sort of the evolution of that, it's, you get the same systems and the same methodologies and the same mentalities that are being passed down and it's not super different

people, even, even like it, the, the, you don't have to trace a line very hard to see how these individuals were connected to Branum or whoever you want, whether Roy Davis or, um, different individuals, I mean, obviously and apparently, so not even behind the scenes, like there's so much more connections that we're not aware of, but, um, like I think that for me and someone who grew up in that community, it's easy for me to trace my own lineage and to, if I had started the church, um, it would be very easy to look and say, hey, this is the community that I was

raised and this is the rhetoric that I was sort of taught to believe and you could, I could easily have seen how I would, um, have carried on the latter room reign movement without even totally recognizing what I was doing, just because of the direct lineage and direct, um, uh, uh, doctrinal, um, descent, um, and, and that I was sort of plugged into, um, and that these, we think of, I don't know, we look at William Branum and see black and white pictures and I think that we disconnect it in our heads, maybe not you and, um, but, uh, people who are historians

probably don't do this as much, but I think for me and others who see, it's easy to feel like these things are separated and that what's going on today is very distinct and different than what went on 50 years ago, 100 years ago even, um, but again, it's just direct lineage and you can see how, even with literal sons of the movement and spiritual sense of movement. I mean, you have a lot of trees and apples not falling apart from each other. It's just very direct how it goes down. And these are the individuals who are

leading. It's not a coincidence that Mike Bickle, one of the most prominent voices of the sort of contemporary and times prayer movement, is in direct sort of spiritual lineage to William Branham, that it was Paul Kane and then Mike Bickle and Bob Jones and Mike Bickle. It's very direct and clear. And you have other individuals who are coming up now who are prominent that are still very much tied. I mean, it's a big world and yet these individuals are one step removed from clan leaders and from the Branham original heartbeat that started the entire literary movement. So yeah, it's really not difficult to see how this continues.

Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation? You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, William-Branham.org. On the book's page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon and others, with links to the paper, audio and digital versions of each book. You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute

to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top. And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching. On behalf of William-Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support. When I have the tug of war in my head, did it end or did it not end? I always go back to the core doctrines. And the core doctrines usually push me over the edge that no, this really hasn't ended. So I think through this with me, one of the things that even if you're not in a group

that you would consider to be NAR, if you're talking to a group that says we believe the five-fold ministry, usually what that means and suggests is the laterane version of the five-fold ministry. There is a passage in Ephesians that talks about the Apostles, Prophets, Teachers, etc. But that's usually a flat. There is no hierarchy to it. It's flat. If you want to be a teacher, you can teach, and that's your part of the work of God. If you want to be a- minister, your minister, your helper, your shepherd, that's your work, and it's not valued

any more from one office to another. There is no hierarchy, but in the latter reign, it came with a hierarchy. And usually, the apostle guy, that's who you really want to be, because that's the one that makes the money.

And me, if that is the prophet, and there's this tear, it's really a pyramid scheme. When somebody in one of these movements says, we believe the fivefold ministry, and if you question it, you're questioning Christianity itself, that tells me that you're part of something that came from latter reign, and it's continuing.

Now, if you were to say, John, I disagree with you. I think it should be an authoritarian structure, but that doesn't really make you Christian or not. I'd be like, well, that's a difference of opinion.

But usually they, you watch the comment feed, usually they attack you. If you don't believe this, you don't believe the Bible. All of that comes from latter reign. I think the fervency of belief in these particular situations, too, reaffirms sort of the idea that it is.

It's not just like a offshoot of panacosalism, or panacosalism is an offshoot of whatever Protestant, whatever lines you want to draw. It really, to me, feels distinctly like its own new religion, and because of the fervency and the intensity of beliefs behind these doctrines, you see people who do not think those who deny these certain beliefs are even a part of Christianity.

And this is something that I saw growing up. This wasn't universal within the community, but I remember thinking, you know, people who believed in even something that's as niche and specific as post-trib, pre-trib distinction is there going to be a rapture that was that idea in of itself could cause people to be like, you're not even Christian.

If you believe in a pre-trib rapture, then you're not even a Christian because you are actually believing what is the important things of the gospel. I mean, not even larger if you don't believe this or that, it was one thing to be like, I don't know if Mormons are also Christian, but to look at Christianity and be like, I don't know if this charismatic church down the road isn't even Christian, because they don't even believe this like very specific niche thing.

And you will see that a lot. You won't see it preached from the Pope at a time, but if you press people within those communities, you'll ask them, hey, what are the doctrines that even are, what are the essential doctrines that one needs to believe to be a true Christian?

Within these communities, you're going to get a lot of very specific doctrines that are not what you would totally expect. And so therefore, I think that it has to continue. It has almost been structured so that the latter reign movement is for, I mean, it's either the entire religion itself dissolves and people don't follow it at all.

Like you can't get this sort of reintegration into the larger body of Christ because they have set themselves apart. And this is especially with IHOP and the rhetoric that was annotated into the culture.

It is all of this we set ourselves apart. Well, who do you set yourselves apart from, not from just the world, but from the body of Christ in general? There was the allegory of the virgins and the brides who all have their lamps and they have to keep oil in their lamp and that whole idea, that wasn't separating from the rest of the world.

That was separated from other Christians. What is going to make us distinctly different than other Christians is that we are going to have this end times intimacy with God that is very real and visceral and romantic even and straight up quasi-sexual in nature.

And this intimacy with God was going to be fueled by prayer and night and day intercession that only because only IHOP does that. Everybody else goes home, but we do prayer 24-7 and never go home collectively.

There is always one of us keeping the fire on the altar burning and therefore we are not just a different type of Christian. We are perhaps the only Christians and everyone else is not even going to be saved.

And when Jesus returns, He will spit the lukewarm out of His mouth and say, depart from me. You never knew me because only us true Christians, only us true IHOP Christians are the ones who are burning and on fire for God.

And that is the type, if you convert Christianity through this or you... grew up into it, or even you are radicalized within this from one version of Christianity into this, there's not an easy going back.

It's not like someone who grew up with a particular, you know, academic viewpoint of religion that then shifts based off of new literature that says, oh, maybe I was wrong about this. I was very fervent in my beliefs, but like I have adapted to see that, because there's a method for that.

There's always a method for you using reason and using rhetoric that is, or the evolution of thought can produce the evolution of belief in people, but when your belief is centered around the words of the prophet and the spirit of a particular movement, your entire faith is hinged upon the continuance of those belief systems.

So therefore, I really do think you have a lot of people who are having crisis of faith in these communities, because it's not a matter of, hmm, I was a Christian, and then I believed all of this extra stuff, and now I'm seeing these people like Shambles and Bob Hartley and others who have done horrible things, and just causing me to like question the specific aspects of some of my belief, like really I have seen way more people just stop being Christian entirely, or push it out of their mind.

Like it, there isn't a whole lot of, ooh, let me adapt this, let me fix it, and let me change the sort of expression of Christianity that I believe in. It's, let me leave Christianity entirely, because it is a different faith.

It isn't, it isn't a ornament on Christianity, where it's like, okay, well we all believe the same central doctrines, you just believe a few different things, no, it's not situated that way, it's not ever situated that way, it's always about being set apart.

So the central beliefs of the New Apostolic Reformation community members is distinctly differently. If you remove those central beliefs, all of your Christianity falls apart. Now I'm not saying that people can't deconstruct and find different expressions of Christianity that they then reposition themselves around, but largely I have not seen that be what happens.

I've seen people largely leave the faith entirely. Amen. self-included in my own sort of expression of, like I had to leave, I had to be like all of my central belief systems were built on these particular premises and when those premises broke, I didn't have the spiritual scaffolding to be like, okay, I'm still going to remain a Christian because it just didn't, that wasn't the belief that I had.

And so, going back to Christianity would be a process of almost similar, it wouldn't be a reconversion experience, it'd be a conversion experience just if it's if I was to become a Buddhist or Muslim or Hindu or something like that, it is almost an entirely new process.

Not that I obviously still have a foundation of Christianity and my knowledge and understanding. It's not quite a one-to-one in so far as like, obviously there was a lot of the Bible that I was reading and I understand a lot of the stories of Christianity and whatnot, but I think that it truly is an entirely, the continuation of people's faith is so caught up with the fervent belief of these central NAR doctrines and if those doctrines dissolve then so do people's faith and that's the way that it's designed to be.

There are so many things that you mentioned that I want to do another podcast about. Just think through this. When you read any book on Laterane, you usually say that by and large, the charismatic movement abandoned Laterane and they always go back to what I mentioned, the assemblies of God just rejected it and soon others started rejecting it.

And so what they usually tried to push is the notion that the heretical doctrines that were rejected, that stayed with Laterane and we've moved beyond that. But let's look at some of the core doctrines.

One of the core doctrines for the Laterane movement is that and this was specifically denounced by the assemblies of God that they pushed the idea that experience and revelation took precedence over theology. That was a big reason why the assemblies of God said no, we don't want any part of this.

But look what's happened today. It's almost like they value the experience and the new revelations over any type of theology to the extent they'll ridicule you if you have studied theology. In fact, I have had people on my show who had been theologians and they just get reamed for having been a theologian.

You're taking that spirit of the devil, but that's part of the movement. The movement has continued that. You're taking that spirit of the devil, but that's part of the movement. There was this core theme and this really came back from Davis and the education thing.

There was this core theme that the churches had been invaded, they were becoming apostates, and we instead have the truth. If you're in a Christian church and you're just an average Christian church, you're one of the bad guys.

We're one of the good guys. That was how it was set up, right? There was a period of time, whenever it did shift a little bit, more people were welcoming, but then it kind of closed up even further.

Now, I mean, look at it today, if you're in a high hop, was it that way where they us versus them with regards to other Christians? Oh, 100%. Yeah, I remember bringing that sort of spirit of arrogance

and spiritual leadism to every sort of conversation because in my upbringing, I never interacted with people who were not Christian, right? There aren't, and you need to set yourself apart, I mean, to be, to have radical sort of power and to be a community that is a successful cult

to radicalize your church members. You need them to have villains in their lives that they see on a day to day, like it can't just be these sort of talking about what's going on in different places in the world.

Like you need it, you need people to actually feel like there is a very tangible battle that is going on. And if you make it Christians versus non-Christians, well, that doesn't really work. Maybe in a Los Angeles community, whether it's a multicultural community, where there are people of different faiths and different denominations, or yeah, different, entirely different faiths and not just different denominational communities.

But if you grow up in Kansas City, sure, there are individuals who are of different faiths but largely, like I would grow up in a suburb of Kansas City and every single person that I knew was Christian or was not a very practicing Christian, but would go to church on Sundays or maybe you would occasionally have the atheist or non-Christian, but also that they grew up at least in a Christian community.

There was not anybody who, again, not saying that this was true of Kansas City at all, but just the community that I sort of, the insular community that I sort of was interacting with at my private, you know, Christian schools, they're all obviously Christian.

And so for, like Vickal, and for IHOP to have us be fervent believers, we have to be set apart from the people who are around us. And so therefore, it's got to be versus other Christians.

It's got to be this is what we're different from, and yeah, that was very much the thing. I remember two, this is a slight, well, I didn't even really change the subject, but you remember Vance Bolter, he was the shooter and the Minnesota shooter who went crazy and went after leaders in Minnesota, elected officials in Minnesota and very tragically killed several individuals in Minnesota.

His, we did, we both kind of went into having conversations about him and his upbringing and how he was sort of tied to some of the NAR, and we're lead tied to that same community and Zimbabwe that my parents were a part of.

But I remember hearing his, I went and listened to several of his sermons that were online. And the rhetoric that he was giving was this, he was talking very explicitly about the division in the church, and he was talking about how Satan had got his, his hands on sections of the American church and how the American church needs to be brought back to God.

And it wasn't the United States as a whole needs to find redemption, which that's different type of, I'm not saying that it was worse or better because of this. I'm just saying that that is the sort of nature of his doctrine that he was professing is this sort of like the church itself, that Satan is inside the house and is coming after even the elected, or the elect, those who believe and profess the name of Jesus and it was this very intense sort of, we have to fight against the spirit of Satan that is dividing the church.

But not in a unifying, let us be loving and kind and patient and understanding and let us accept differences of opinions that it wasn't that sort of unifying of like we accept the fact that other people view other denominations, view things differently.

It was a totalizing, totalitarian view of unity where it was like we need to root out the bad beliefs within the church. There are these, Satan's got this. foothold within the church that is causing division and the only way to do it is to root out these bad beliefs and these bad agents. And so I think you see iterations of this in several different arms of the New Apostolic Reformation Movement.

You know, one of the other things that you mentioned was the militaristic aspect of it. It's not just us versus them. They will attack you if you question the doctrines. Well, if you go back in time and you look at what Davis was building, Davis being branched mentor, he was building the next iteration of the wave of the clan. But more than that, he was building political alliances that you were either with that set of politics or you were the enemy. And it became so divisive that when religion mixed in with this, now if you don't view

this politics in the same way, you're a part of Satan's crowd, you're part of the enemy. That legacy has continued. It did continue through latter reign strongly. I've not published this yet. I'm still kind of working through it, but I have recordings of one of the leaders of the working closely with the Sharon orphanage, I should say it like that.

And they were part, they believed the Christian identity to see doctrine. And they were talking about the end of day's race war, which they believed to be coming. Brannum hints at it. He doesn't go real deep with it. But the idea was that we are preparing for an end of day's battle.

The end of day's battle is coming. And you're either with us or you're against us. So if you're a Christian who's cold, stale, apostate, who isn't fighting mad, you're part of the enemy. And that mentality, I think over time, what happened is I think it did begin as a political slash racist agenda. But over time, the racist part got forgotten. The same mentality that we're in a war, we're in a battle. I think that continued through time. And as it changed and morphed over history, it ended up to what we see today. But it's weird to me that the attack still remained

on other Christians. If you're in a Christian denomination and you don't believe exactly like I do, well, you're part of the enemy. You're part of the end of day's battle that I'm going to be fighting. That is the fact that that continued tells me that something is wrong here.

Yeah. And I would say too, I totally agree with what you're saying. I would say that the racism part of it wasn't necessarily forgotten. It just didn't become the, it changed from being the um, pulpit, uh, uh, uh, talking point. And it has more because it's, we still see a lot of that.

The racism latent within all of these different talking points, even even the, the, sort of movement against illegal immigrants in the way that that is clearly based in some

racist beliefs and rhetoric. And particularly, I'm talking about how, I mean, this is probably a whole different video and subject, but about how the NAR movement is attached to some of the anti-immigration movement that's going on in the United States and is fueling some of the violence against people of color who are either migrating or even just living in the United States and have been living in the United States for several generations. Anyway, that's probably a larger conversation, but I think to your point yet, too, that it's just that it is militaristic.

It is very, I mean, talking about using terms like invasion, using terms like, well, invasion in both we are being invaded, whether that's by legal immigrants, whether that's by just the churches, the churches are being invaded by woke rhetoric or different. I'm definitely hinging on some of the political stuff, but some of this is non-political, too,

and just more universal, invaded by demonic forces, invaded by the spirit of the enemy, and yet using that invasion rhetoric to be provide the solution, because it going back to sort of the bolter's thing, there is this idea that we are going to the good people are going to unify the United States and unify the body of Christ and bring about peace and stability to the body of Christ, but doing so is going to be done by eliminating all the bad rhetoric. So again, it's this totalitarian perspective that seeks to weed out differences of belief and opinion and eliminate that

and thus bringing about unity. If we eliminate every perspective that is different than ours, then ha ha. So now we have a perfectly unified church and everything is peaceful. So it isn't, it masquerades as a peaceful rhetoric, very, very, very thinly, because all of the other rhetoric is clearly militaristic and, but it's like unto, I mean, it's similar to actually the propaganda that is used throughout time to condone waging war or waging just any type of violence against people groups or communities or other nations. Is this idea is that through war and destruction, we shall bring about peace and tranquility and it's, yeah, clearly just violence masquerading as

peace. I don't know if you've ever seen the show Boston Legal. It's one of my favorite shows. William Shatner is Hardcore, Die Hard Republican, James Mater, Democrat, and these two guys are best friends and they sit on the top of the top of the building and they solve all the world's problems together as as friends with completely different viewpoints. It's funny because I'm a registered Republican. You've never mentioned what you are, but I can assume that we're like Danny Crane and James Spader, right? We're that type of mentality. I like that show because it shows

that two people with opposing viewpoints can come together for a common good, common goal, and they can work together. Yeah. But by and large, I was listening as you were talking, you're bringing up some political points, just mentioning the subject matter. We'll make people just insanely angry at you. Why is that? It's because of this merger between Christianity and politics, Christianity, and all of these other agendas. They become, they become fighting mad.

And why is that? It's because Laterane taught them that we're in an end of day's battle. You must be mad. You must be angry, angry at the world. And so this is a religion that literally makes people angry at the world. So very glad you talked through this with me. I think there's more that we could probably do, but we'll save it for next time. Thank you for doing this. Yeah, my pleasure. If you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at www.William-Branum.org. For more about the dark side of the new apostolic

Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.