The Martyr Culture Of Charismania: Inside A Movement Of Fear

Music Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Brannum Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Brannum Historical Research at William-brannum.org, and with me I have my very special guest, Franny Nance, former member of IHOPKC, Kerasmania, and more. Franny, it's so hard to bundle everything that you told me into one simple introduction, so maybe I'll just let you introduce yourself and tell everybody a little bit about you and your experience in Kerasmania.

Yes, thank you, John. Grateful for this podcast. I just want to say a thank you for letting me tell my story that this has been an awesome resource for me and just the various guests you've had on. I kind of feel like I've, I just, it feels like a community and can totally relate.

I grew up in, my parents became Christians when I was a baby, I'm the oldest in my family, and then from that they just jumped like headfirst into the charismatic movement, so I was born in 82, so really like the 80s, 90s, and I love my parents very much and still close with them, but they're still very much in that world. And really like what, there was never like, oh, we go to this church or it was fundamentalist, it was very much like the emotional highs. So jumping from like, the crazier the story, the crazier the quote manifestation,

or this is where the revival is happening is where we would end up. And you know, if, if there was pushback, usually the response was like, well, they have a religious spirit, they don't want the Holy Spirit, we need to find a more extreme church. So we, gosh, I grew up in Virginia, I live in California right now, but grew up in Virginia, and we did, in the 90s, went up to Toronto for the Toronto blessing, quite a bit, morning star, we were close to morning star of like Bob Jones and Rick Joyner, so we would do that. We were pretty often,

we were pretty close to that, I'm trying to think, yeah, whatever was happening, whatever revival, whatever fringe, charismatic church, and not even necessarily church, my parents to get to the point where they're like, it's no longer in churches, it's too religious, we're going to meet in a group or something like that.

Usually, it would attract interesting characters. There was one woman you had on the podcast, and I wish I could remember her name, but she talked about growing up in a commune, and I mean, I didn't grow up in a commune, but I related to a lot of what she said where they would talk about, like, deliverance or just the intensity of, it was just engulfed your entire life.

So that's kind of the foundation that I was raised on that was very much like, I have a feeling, so if I feel depressed, it must be a coven of witches are, you know, cursing me instead of, like, I'm sad today, you know, like, that's really kind of the foundation for it, or it's like, you know, if someone was mean to you today, well, it could be because you opened the door to the devil, so you got to, like, I would, like, be, you know, an elementary school thinking back, like, okay, did I touch something that's not of

God? Did I say something or, or if it wasn't that, then it was, you were so, like, anointed and chosen by God that the devil's trying to take you out, and so he's attacking you, and so then I'm like, well, I don't want that.

Yeah. Yeah, so it was just, there's always a deeper meaning, there's a demon behind everything, you know, it was like, well, maybe you're having this problem because eight generations removed from you, this prophet is picking up that there was a murder, and so now the sin is going down, and so you need to repent.

Yeah, I mean, yeah, so, and when we were younger, I'll end on this, when, you know, my sisters and I were younger, and again, my parents were very, their desire, they love God, like their desire was to serve God, and raise us how they believed was the best way.

So it certainly don't fault them, but it was, you know, we had to, when my sisters and I would fight, they would put us in the corner and make us pray in tongues, or, you know, until the Holy Spirit changed our heart, or, or something like that.

So it was just, it was very experiential. It was going to banyhen conferences. It was, you know, like, let's pray for healing. Let's tell you on hands, let's, you know, do spiritual warfare, like, we open the door to the devil, you know, let's go through these prayers again and repent of generational curses, and this is what I was going to say.

I remember saying elementary or middle school saying, well, doesn't the Bible say that Jesus became the curse of the law, you know, like, once and for all, and I was like, well, just say the prayers, you know, like, if there's always something, and so that's, that's kind of what I think my parents were always searching for, especially my mother, they're, you know, there's more, like, well, now here's this certain curse where, you know, a special name, and now you need to repent of this, or you have free masonry in your background, so you need to repent of, so, yeah, that was kind of the...

foundation of my upbringing. So no surprise, I ended up it. I have KC, I was like, I am so glad you introduced yourself like this. You gave me a thousand talking points right off of the bat.

And some of them are, like I try to find common ground with the people that I talk to. Not everybody was in the brand I'm called, but I found that there are so many different connections that are the same.

And I try to find common ground, but it usually takes me like, I don't know, 10, 20 minutes into the podcast to do it. You immediately gave me a common ground and you mentioned the commune lady, which was a brand of might.

That was, I think it was the interview with Deborah Tibado you're talking about. But it was horrific. And what you're describing, I've often thought about this, but I haven't really formulated how to say it in words.

But the group makes you have this atmosphere of instability. And when you're in this atmosphere of instability, where your normal Christians will go every Sunday to a church and they realize and recognize that the church is the body of Christ, the people, not the building.

And what we came out of, the movement itself was the church. It was a movement. And when you're in a normal church, there isn't a movement, there's a church, and you look to Jesus.

In the movement, you look to the movement and you look to the history of the movement. So they walk all through these prophetic histories and you mentioned there's a prophet, some guy long ago talked about a murder, whatever it is.

It's that way you're looking for something that makes the movement make sense to you. That's really what it comes down to. So you're not rooted in a local church. Even if you, I've known people who were in the movement who went to the same church forever, but they really weren't rooted in it, like other Christians.

You're not rooted in the church. You're following personalities. You're looking for them to be your shepherds and there's this strange addiction to the new move. You're looking for the next thing because you're caught up in this movement and what it has is not fulfilling.

So you look for the next thing that that one might be fulfilling. That might be the end of days. The end of days revival, whatever it is. And so this, it turns into an addiction, really, when you think about it.

Yes, I would agree 100% with that. That is, it's like an emotional fix. Like you need your, like an addict needs a fix. It's very much, I feel low. I need to go, you know, and I, you know, I'd still attend church to this day, but I, and I have a relationship with God.

I believe in God. But I, there is definitely like a lot of caution with like worship music or certain language or what it, you know, because it's like, it was so ingrained that there had to be like an emotional rhythm.

or activation, like, you know, like because this, whatever this profit prophesied and it, you know, I like to hear it. So, and I feel good about it, so it must be true. And, you know, well, then it didn't come to pass. Well, you didn't like pray it into existence or, well, maybe they saw this or maybe they maybe they meant that or maybe it's for late, you know, there's just always, there was just a constant reasoning away. And I think listening to your podcast, and I listened to Steve passons, the cult podcast that he does, the bite model and combating

cult mind control. But something at you said that really stood out to me and you say it often, but it's just it trains you to turn off your critical thinking. And I just that phrase is really stuck with me of like turning off your critical thinking because it's funny. So my parents really invested in all three of us, like my sisters, like, you have to go to college, you know, history, you know, whatever, like that was very important to them. And so was this like competing, I don't know, it's like you turn off your brain for your spirituality. And any sort of reason

or logic is, you know, just it's lack of faith or yeah, I don't know, not true. I don't know. Yeah, it ties into all that. So, you know, I've often thought about that because now that I'm out of this thing, I have friends who have been in a normal Christian church all their life. And they will tell many of them will tell me they have never had an instance in their life where they did not have critical thinking, even in the same church service. In fact, this was odd to me whenever, you'll get this because you came out of the same type of movement in IHOP KC. There's this end of

days focus. The end of days is urgent. It's coming. It's immediate. It's now. And everybody has to be aligned to have this type of focus. You all have to be in agreement of how the end will play out.

The very first church that I went to after leaving the movement, they had a plurality of elders, which was, I actually agree with that, but it was unusual for me, you know. So I go in here and I'm talking about the end of days because I'm still hard focused on how is the world going to end, right? And I talked to one of the pastors and he told me what he believed. And oddly enough, it aligned pretty close with what I had believed. Only he didn't have a end of days profit in that scene. So I talked to another one and it was polar opposite. And I was like, wait a minute,

how does this work? How can you to have different views? And I talked to the other, there were four. I talked to the other two. Everybody had a variation of different views, some of them opposite, some of them close. And as I'm talking to them, I came to realize, wait a minute, they're not an alignment. How does this work? Well, they were critically thinking and analyzing what they believed and why they believed it in the Bible. And they were free to do that.

And that freedom is something that I never had. So when I I mentioned critical thinking. It's largely because of watching that. I saw the power of what it was in the freedom in it, and yet at the same time, they weren't doomed to hell because they had the difference of opinion.

Right, yeah. But I have come to the conclusion that part of the reason why people shut off their critical thinking in the in Charismania, it is an entertainment form of gospel. Think about entertainment.

When I'm watching a movie, sci-fi movie, fictional movie, I know it's not real. I just turn off my thinking. I know internally it is not real. And even the true stories, true crime stories, I know that they're taking a lot of liberties.

So I just, I don't even critically think about what they're doing. And oddly, some of the things, if I were to critically thank the movies, don't quite line up in their, in their portrayal of what happened.

The church has become quite the same way. It's an entertaining gospel, and it's an entertaining society. So the people listening, they just don't really critically think, is inwardly they know something's off. Another way to look at it, I started looking when I saw the tent revivalist.

I started thinking of it much like you would a carnival. These carnivals go from town to town to town. Well, the people who go to the carnival, they shut off their critical thinking. They know that they're magic tricks and other things going on.

The audience. But the entertainers, it's a totally different thing for them. They go from town to town to town, knowing that what they're doing is wrong, but yet it appeases the people. And you have that same exact mentality, I think, within some of these movements.

They don't really, leadership doesn't believe half the stuff they say, but they watch what it does to the crowd. Yeah, no, I agree with that. I think too, just listening to your podcast, I read your book, and then just diving into, listening to other people's experiences, and then reading a lot of the history of the movement.

I read this book called Cults Like Us by Jane Borden. It was really good. Just, it focused more on like the Protestant religious influence on American politics, but what's my point? It was helpful.

Oh, because as I'm listening to your podcast, and there's another couple, sorry, I don't remember these people's names, there's another couple you had on, and they mentioned Lewingle and whatever movement, and that I was like, okay.

So, okay, so I have one story to touch on, really is just how these movements glom onto like current events, or like a big event that happens, and how they're all connected. Like I think that's been listening to this too, it's another point, I'm like, they're all connected, and they're, but they like to not, they wanna be associated with each other when things are good, but like with Shawn Bulls or whatever, when it's not good, we don't know him.

And it's just, it's so frustrating, but. In the 90s, when the Columbine high school shooting happened, I was a junior in high school, and that sort of began, like, that's when I was first introduced to who Louis Angle was, and this was in like the Northern Virginia DC area.

There was a bunch of like, they're having youth rallies. So it was just the whole lore around, and again, I feel sorry for the grieving families, but it was like, they wrote books, Michael W. Smith had a song about how, you know, this young woman had a gun to her head, and they asked her to deny Christ, and she said, no, you know, like, I believe in Jesus, and they killed her for it.

Would you say, you know, would you, Louis, it was that very, which, if you've researched, that's not a true story, like, you know, F.E.I.s gone, you can look it up or whatever, they've gone back, and those, that's not true, based on eyewitness accounts, like, and again, sorry for the grieving family, but what happened was it turned into this whole like martyrdom movement.

So again, the other lady you've had on your podcast that was in Y-WAM, who I think is now a psychologist or whatever therapist, I, you know, when she was talking about martyrdom, I'm like, these people, it's like a theme, like, they, they find the youth.

So I'm what, millennials, zenial, well, apparently when I was being raised, and that's, you know, my parents really, you know, reinforce this in us, like, you're the chosen generation. You're the generation that's going to see Christ return, like, and so there's this obsession with, like, being the chosen generation, youth.

And so these, in my opinion, grifters, you know, come around, they hold these youth rallies, they raise money, and there's alter calls, and it's very emotional, and it's, it was leading up to, they're doing these rallies leading up to the call, which was in 2000, like, in DC.

And so I got, like, whipped up into that, and it was like the same time when DC talk came out with their book on, like, martyrdom, or like being a martyr, I mean, so like, I related so much to your guests when they're like, yeah, I'm like, I'm going to be a martyr for Christ.

I mean, I, I remember my dad sincerely saying, like, well, if someone was, you know, threatening to kill you or torture you, and I had to deny Christ, I would hope that I would stand firm in my faith.

And I was like, oh, that's so, you know, like, that's crazy if you, you know, think about it. But that's kind of like, we were in that, like, it was very emotional and like, very, like, yeah, turn off your critical thinking, very authoritarian, like, say, yes, and a lot of that preaching was, you know, instant obedience, God wants your instant obedience, he wants 100% from you, like, he gave everything you need to give everything, you know, so it was just like shame of like, I didn't read my Bible to him.

like I, you know, I'm so sorry God, but in those youth rallies in high school, there is a youth minister, which I don't really know if I say names, but he's not that well known right now, but he had a massive campus ministry in the 80s, Maranatha campus ministries.

And if you read kind of like Delvin to the history of it, there are some cult-like control issues in that. So I think like his board forced him to step down. He took his family to Russia in the 90s to do ministry and came back just in time for the Columbine shooting and all these rallies. But I ended up in college after my freshman year in college interning for him, which was sort of like the beginning of like, but I was so trained to be like a good faithful girl soldier that, yeah, it's looking back now. I'm like, oh, yeah, that was really screwed

up. So I mean, I'll stop here. I could keep going. Yeah, there's, I mean, there's just so many problems with it. And honestly, so the Marva culture, I didn't go that deep with Jenny when we're talking Y-Wam, because I still believe it or not, I'm still untangling that in my head. We were taught that God was the father. God loved us like a father. We're the sons and daughters of God.

We're love like sons and daughters. But yet the version of the God that they painted was one that wanted you to be martyred. It's one that didn't care if you suffered and died. And trying to unpack that, trying to untangle that, it reminds me, you've seen the movies where there's like a suicide bomber and he goes, and I'm willing to die for God. And he takes, he takes his own life.

It's that kind of religion. It's not, it's more like Islam. It's not like Christianity, what they're teaching. And it took me even after Jenny had that conversation with me. I'm still untangling that. And I suddenly started to just, okay, let's logically, let's critically, thanks for this. Let's walk through it. I have children. If one of my children were to say something that might offend me, what I want them to die for it, you know, and so you start putting yourself, I hate to do this, but to critically think about it, they have put you in a

position where you literally have to put yourself in the position of God to even undo it. And the fact that you're having to do that is somewhat heretical. So they have put you in this really, really bad position. So I'm sitting here, I'm trying to weigh in the balance, okay, what does the Bible say about it? What do, what do I believe about it? And what have they done to my head? That's the circle that I take. And it all comes down to critically thinking. And as I was going through that, I started thinking about Martin Luther and the Reformation. He had to have gone through those

exact same circles to even start the Protestant Reformation. Everything they had taught him about God. I was the same exact way him breaking free from it was the same pain that I had and internally he had to have had all of those same thoughts and had he not taken that leap of faith and stood out and said, no, I'm not going to put up with this anymore.

We wouldn't even have the Protestant religion in the first place, so it's it's it put you in a bad place. I'll just say it like that. Yeah. Yeah. When I interned for this youth minister, I was his only intern and it was I was 19.

So it was sort of an eye opener, you know, you go and they tell that's another thing too in this movement. They tell just fantastical stories like and it's, you know, you're like, wow, I want to do miracles like that or and again, I'm they do this to young people and it's really.

I don't know. It feels very wrong, but so yeah, I interned for him and he was real jerk like I can remember my name. You know, it was very like money focused and like it was very much like I kind of like in it to I don't have experience with Bethel, but like that honor culture type of like honor the anointed man of God.

And this youth minister, I remember thinking so naive because I was like, gosh, he's friends with Rick Dwinner and all these other spiritual like Bob Jones, like don't they speak into his life like, do they know like how mean he is or you know, whatever.

But again, I was very naive because they don't really speak into each other's lives or no, they don't. And it's like one of the things that I've thought through and there was a movie, I wish I could remember the name of it, but they had this old junk of a car and the guy painted it up, made it look pretty, sold it for a lot of money and the people driving it realized, hey, this car is a piece of junk.

Somehow he gets it back, he paints it a different color, sells it to somebody else and he's just reselling the same junk over and over again. I wanted to find that movie and I've just, I've kind of given up, but if you're in the audience and you know what it is, send it to me.

But I started thinking about the revivals and the revival history. It's much the same way when you examine a revival and then you examine the next one, they're not that much different. They have different stories, different tales, different people, different faces, but it's really the same thing.

And I actually wanted to ask you that because I was reading down the line of what all you sent me, Toronto, Blessing, Morningstar, Todd Bentley, I hopped the call. How different would you say these are?

Are they vastly different or are they somewhat similar? They're very similar, again, that's when I heard like that couple interviewed talking about it and I'm like, you know, there's always, they go after the youth, it really is, like they go after the young people and it's like, you're almost deified, like you're young and if you're charismatic, you know, that's a lot of prophecy, it's a lot of...

ocean, but then like when you age out, like I remember being like 22 or 23 and feeling like a loser. So I was like, Oh, I guess I missed the call or I wasn't faithful enough or, you know, and just felt very wandering. And if you, and this was like when I was out at IHOP, KC, and if you go to them with that, it's, they flip it. It's there. I would say the biggest thing that has been the most eye opening for me was in 2020, I worked for, I was a director of operations for a real estate brokerage. And this guy was, you know, Professor Christ,

the really strong Christian. And it was one of the most toxic work environments I think I've ever been in, where someone, and that's what coming out of that learning, what is a communal, what is communal narcissism? What is the definition of narcissism? What is gaslighting me? Like the actual definition, you know, spiritual bypassing all, because there was things it wasn't like clicking like my brain with short circuit where I'm like, you pray and you quote Bible scriptures, but then when like your top producer is having an affair with, you know, another person, it's all of a sudden I'm gossiping, like, and it's my fault. And I just, it was so

damaging, you know, by the time I left, because I was just kind of like, what happened? And so I think there's just, I'm like, I keep ending up whether it's a job or, you know, a church in these like groups where it's like the person looks great and they profess Christ and say all the right things, but the closer you get to them, what they do doesn't match what they say. And when you, you think you get lured in because you think like, oh, we're friends, you know, and so then you mentioned that and it is like flipped on you. So I had left in 2022 and by the time the

stuff with Mike Bickle came out, because I used to always be like, well, you know, Benny Hens, sucks, Todd Bentley's terrible, you know, all these guys suck, but Mike Bickle, he's, he's the one, he's so humble and look at this and he, you know, whatever, whatever. And then when the stuff came out about him, I just believed it immediately, just based on my experience of what I'd experienced at work and then just growing up, I was like, I 100% believe this, like, the person that puts on the image of like, I'm so humble or whatever, but then just the destructive mind games that go on

behind the scenes, especially the closer you get to the leader and the way they deflect on the other people. And I would say, that's what that to me is a hallmark of, I'm sorry, charismatic, I have not, I've yet to see, maybe this is, you know, people might get upset, but I just, yeah, I haven't seen...

good fruit. And I think just the more you know, like I have friends who are very dear to me that, you know, believe in the gifts. And I'm not saying I don't, I just, I have not seen it used in a healthy manner. I mean, my mom, like, loved Shawn Bulls. She should talk about it all the time. Shawn Bulls, Shawn Bulls. He's got such a bright spirit, blah, blah, blah. And then this stuff comes out. And I'm like, oh my gosh. But, you know, a lot of people felt their life on it, like their foundation, their who they are, their identity.

So it is easier just to go along with it or ignore it than like have to grapple with like, if I'm believing a lie for, you know, all these years. Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new Apostolic Reformation? You can learn this and more on William Brannum Historical Research's website, William-Brannum.org. On the book's page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others,

with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book. You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top. And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching. On behalf of William-Brannum Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support. I remember growing up, I kept watching this video.

There was one video in particular of William-Brannum that would watch over and over. My grandfather had this old reel-to-reel video projector and he would play it for new guests who came over, but it was Brannum being interviewed. And I look at it now and it was actually marketing material, but he was interviewed and he was talking about his life story and just different details.

And we thought he was such a humble person. How could this humble person have done this great thing for us? I hate to say that's how we thought. And then even after leaving, I had a problem with this because all of these ministries were built on this. I knew now it was false, but how could he have done this? He was so humble. And it took me forever to unravel that because that's part of the indoctrination, humility. He's the most humble person ever, right? But you stop and you think about it. He's the most humble person who is going to heap the wrath of God down upon the people.

He's the most humble person who is your mediator between God and man. He's your most humble person who there were sex within the Brannum, it's my grandfather's sex belief. He was actually God tabernacled in Branum as human flesh.

Is that humility? I don't think that by any nature of ways that you twist it, there's no way to make it, to twist that and make it say humility. But yet every single group that spawned off of it, they all, just like you use the word humble, they all will do this with the leader.

And what it is, they have painted, they have created the perfect hero mold and then started to put people in that mold. As one person either dies or gets caught in some horrific sin, well here's the mold, you take it, you're the humble guy, you next guy, you're the humble guy.

So when you talk about IHOP culture, I know from talking with Jed and others that they had this, but I look at Bob Jones and he was like, almost perfectly the Branum mold, and he's teaching Branumism.

So you begin to wonder, is it by accident or did they really come up with a set of standards? This is what we're going to do when we create a new hero and we're going to worship the hero.

Yeah, no, I was gonna say too, I grew up hearing about, my mom will talk about this profit that knows your phone number. He can just say it. You know, like he's got such a clear prophetic word.

Well, she's talking about Paul Kane. So by the, you know, I went out to IHOP, gosh what, 2004, I went to graduate from college and I did the night watch. I did the, I was like, let me find the most extreme thing that I can do, you know, because I graduated college and I was like, gosh, I'm a loser, you know, I'm not married, because that was part of it too, you know, like gotten a prophecy when I was like seven.

Like, God's got your house. I mean, just, that's insane, but the point was very primed that like, for some reason I had it in my mind, I needed to be married and then like, God's going to launch me into this amazing ministry, whatever that is, I don't know, you know, like that's kind of how it was.

I just want to say side note, the, I lived with some ladies, some girls, my age in college that are still very different, so to say, and there are Christians, but they were really the first people that I was close with that weren't insane, or I care's magic, you know, like just that intensity and I remember this one, my one room, like I shared a room with her and she's a believer and like, you know, had problems, but she, there's a lot of internal peace and I didn't have that, like, and I was like having a hard time grappling with that

because I'm like, well, I didn't think, I didn't use the term super Christian, but I'm spirit filled, she is not. I have the baptism of the Holy Spirit and I know how to do warfare, I know how to break generational curses, whatever, why am I tormented with, you know, I had an eating disorder and a lot of anxiety and she is not, you know, if just there was a lot of that where it's like, doesn't, you know, so you can try to like argue it away with yourself like, well, she's not anointed like I am, but I, you know, by the time I finished college, I ended up out

at IOP Casey because I was like, this is the next extreme thing. This is what's going to launch me. God's call blah, blah, blah. And of course, like the end of the age and just the extreme language of like, you know, his song of songs. And then again, it's on praying on the youth. It was whatever, they're big like New Year's Eve rally and the worship music. Like that pulled me in. I don't play and I don't sing, but there is, I love and appreciate music. And so there is that element to it. And they look cool, you know, they're

creative. And so, and it's sort of like a welcoming like, okay, I can fit here. And so that began just, and it's, it's really like brainwashing yourself in a sense because you're, yeah, you will read the Bible, read the Bible, you know, or be praying, fasting. It's just this like intensity of like keep going, keep going, keep going. And at the same time, that ministry also just attracted weird, I mean, what was I say, I went to it, so I guess I'm weird, you know, like, but just some really unhealthy people to this, like, there's

one guy that was in my crew track or whatever, who is creepy and I know has done bad things

with women. But like, he's, he's like, you know, I'm doctor blah, blah, blah. And speaking it, doing the circuit, I'm speaking at different churches, like, I'm, you know, and that's what a lot of these people do in order to get cred. They like glom. Oh, a bobby Connor, whoever, morning star, annoyed, you know, I was kind of mentored by him and they kind of claim that because like, who's going to go call bobby Connor, you know, or whoever, the brick joiner, they don't know. And, or they might be like, it's like a celebrity.

It's like, you know, you walk around, they like, you met Ben Affleck once, but you're like, oh, Ben Affleck, you know, mentored me or whatever. And it's like, are they going to find that no, you know, and the people church opt. So it's like, you can't hold them accountable.

And if you do try to hold them accountable, then you're, it's an attack from the devil, your gossiping or jealous, you know, you're jaded, you know, check yourself. It's, it's, it's always turned back on you. And so I think that I hop was so, that was, it was such, like the more I look at it, it was such a brainwashing cult of breaking you down in every possible way. So my intern director that led us that I got to know at the time was Stuart Griefs, who was like, my vehicle's number two now or whatever. And I mean, I revered

him, you know, I was like, oh, he's so wise or whatever. But looking back, like the stuff he'd say, you know. it was mean. It was just like mean, you know. Um, and I mean, remember once he was like, people call this a cult, you can leave.

He was like, who's stopping you? You know, just like stuff like that. So you're like, Oh, okay, well, it's not a call or just zeroing in on people, like whether they favor you. And if you look, I, I definitely came up.

I'm very impressionable. So it was like, you know, basically, how can I use you like, um, whether it's like narcissistic supply? I know I'm using these buzzwords that trigger people sometimes, but it's, it's true.

It's like, this makes me feel good that you are coming to me for special knowledge and for, for counsel. But yeah, I was, I tried to make it work after my internship out there ended, which if you think about it, how ridiculous, like, hi, I'm going out to this place and praying at night.

Like I'm switching my entire schedule to pray all night. Um, but yeah, I mean, they definitely had like a cast system too. It was very much like if you're on the worship team, like you're special, if not, you know, you're a nobody.

But yeah, I mean, it was definitely like this intensity, but it was such a mind game because it was like, it was mean. They're like, you know, do this, do that. But we're not asking you to stay. I mean, we're trying to send people out to go like you should go. But, but at the same time, the, the more holy thing to do is to stay and pray and like raise support or whatever.

But so it's like almost like an abusive relationship in a sense where like this person's like desperate for acceptance, love, whatever. And it's, and they manipulate like, um, they're belief in God, like something that's so precious and, um, tender to a person like your spirituality and your relationship with God. And they use that to keep themselves in power and to continue to feel good or continue their movement or whatever it is. And I just remember being, I was like working at Starbucks and Kansas City is trying to make it work to stay out there. And, um, but I just didn't want to raise

support. I didn't feel good about asking for people to like give me money. Um, and then I, you know, also remember at a group leader who she was like on support and she just had no money and people out there were so poor. And she was like, the other day I found a piece of gum in my car. And it was such a miracle. And I savored that piece of gum. And I remember like looking at a friend of mine, I'm like, I don't want that life, you know, but you feel guilty.

Cause it's like, well, this is, this is the right thing, you know, to be at the feet of Jesus and to be praying in his kingdom and be ready for the end times movement. Because like the deeper you got into it, it was very much like an end times cult. And, you know, spreading that message, they've kind of come to you with like, oh, the love of Christ with like the song of songs. And then lure you in.

deeper you get, it's very much, you know, yeah, an end times call. And one last thing before I stopped. One thing that really stood out to me because this was the issue I had with my employer. He was very stingy with money. Like he wasn't flashy. He did not drive fancy cars or have a big house or whatever, but there is something about him that hoarded wealth. And I was aware of the books. And so, you know, we had a lot of hard workers. And that was not a thing. Is there's a lot of chaos? And it would trickle down, but it was never

his fault. It was always our fault. And I remember always advocating like, we need to pay this person more, you know, we want to keep him like for the growth of business. Oh, if I had a million dollars, I would pay everyone, you know, but I don't. We have to, it was very shaming. And so I'm like, oh, I'm so sorry, you know, how dare I, you know, ask that.

And I remember hearing whoever Mike Bickle's director of operations was, her name is Elizabeth or something, but she was telling her story. And she would point out to Mike the numbers and say these people here that are faithfully serving are hungry, you know, like they're poor. Like this is below poverty. Like basically we have money. We can pay them. And he would like be evasive and, you know, whatever. And so to me, I just, I, I believed it. And it's like, and you could write that off because he's not driving flat. He's not a bany

hint. He's not dressing crazy and whatever. But he's still hoarding the money. And he's not caring for his people. And if you point that out, you know, you're jealous, you're gossip, you're causing division, you know, of the devil. And it's just like, just pay people that are like, like value people that you say you value. And instead it's like, no, so you have these poor, broken people, you know, that come and just like faithfully serve and, you know, whatever. Meanwhile, the leadership gets, you know, like Mike Bickle, they get to do whatever they want. And, you know, there's no accountability.

It's really sad. That's part of the reason I've had partners tell me that I need to ask for money whenever I do the podcast just to keep things going. There's a lot that goes on behind the scenes. And I don't do it. Haven't had to do it yet, fortunately, but one of the reasons I don't is because these people have been robbed blind. They're escaping cults and the cult leaders have robbed them blind. And I know exactly how they did it because I, you know, sitting in the upper tiers of this thing, you can watch them play on the

harp strings. And oh my gosh, there's a mass shooting, get involved, get involved with your money. That's usually what ends up with, right? And I just know all the techniques. I could do it. I could do it. Well, I could probably make a heck of a lot of money if I did, but I'm not going to go there. It really, it prays upon the people in multiple ways. And the money's not even the biggest problem. The other thing you mentioned, it's almost uncharted territory. I don't know too many podcasts that go deep with this. I intend

to in the future. But the connection between the spiritual warfare concept and myth illness. Those two go hand in hand. You alluded to it some, but these people who live in a world where there's always these demons surrounding them and they can either fight them or they can do the wrong thing and the demon will attack them and they might, you know, if they get in a car wreck, it's because the demon finally won. Well, you live in that world, you live in a world of paranoia and that's that wreaks havoc on your brain. There's so much instability. Even

right down to the elemental, the fundamental doctrines of in time urgency, that's creating an instability world for you. Mentally, you are unstable and you have this demon paranoia, so you combine instability with paranoia. What do you get? The further you go with this, it's just, it's like building blocks of insanity and once you get to the top, you are, I know people like this man. If you were to have somebody do a psychopath on some of the people who have gone through all of the motions and they fully are indoctrinated in this thing with somebody right out

of a psych ward, you're going to have a difficult time saying who's crazier. I mean, it's really that way and it's uncharted territory. I think it needs to be tapped into. I think more people need to expose this. I'm trying to be careful because I mean, or my parents are really going to hear this. I don't, I doubt it, but that was the, what is the term? Like the air we breathed was, you know, I remember, and that was something that stood out to me too, that someone, you just said it and then someone else that you've interviewed before, it attracts mentally ill people

and then it intensifies the mental illness. So, you know, there was a woman who, you know, my mom found her and they became really good friends and I mean, we all had anxiety every time she came around because it's like, well, what spirit is she? I mean, I remember I'm like 18. I got like Dave Matthews band like his new CD or whatever and she was like, oh, there's demons everywhere, you know, was like losing her mind and so I'm like, oh my gosh, you know, it's like throwing away the CD because I'm thinking like, oh, I brought demons in, you know, or she'd like start hacking and

be like, you know, open a window, there's demons everywhere and I'm just like, and that's kind of how we grew up, it was very much like we would hear stories like my, my parents like to tell stories, you know, it's like, well, this person was praying one day and Satan showed up and then, you know, he stopped praying and was like, oh, it's just you and went back to praying and I'm like, I'm six, seven, eight, I'm thinking, please, I don't ever want that, you know, just that, those types of things where it's like, you know, here's all the, basically telling ghost stories like that you

would see in a horror film, but you know, those are, we're not allowed to see horror films because that's satanic, but I'm going to tell you these horrific, very terrifying stories and tell you they're true. Um, and then, And yeah, it's like, so kind of run with that.

But I would say like, there's another lady that my parents have friends with. And she actually has a, I don't know if you've come across her. So like, I don't know if you're familiar with like the Elijah list, like that.

Oh God. There's this woman named Kacker. I just have to call her out. And she travels around and talks about the number of times she's been to heaven. And how amazing heaven is and how, you know, and I've tuned in because I have to hear.

So she's been on the Elijah list and, you know, the guy hosting it's like Sharon from Kansas wants to know, what does David drive a chariot in heaven? And, you know, and I'm like, this is insane.

And so then she's like, well, you know, he, or something like, does he drive a car? And she's like, well, he loves driving a car. But, you know, he really loves driving is his chariot.

I mean, he just goes everywhere. And people soak it up. Like I, I am shocked. That's what, you know, she sells weather sticks. They're like staffs that you can like pray, use to pray against weather.

Like, you know, but it's that. I think the longer you're in these movements, the more you just are like, you break your own critical thinking. Like you're saying, you're just like, well, you know, and then I, they all feed off each other.

And there's no accountability. And so, like, you're not exposed to sane people. And I would say that the, my girlfriends in college, one of them actually became a therapist, a psychologist. And he was always like, see a therapist, you know, like, no.

But yeah, the connection between spiritual warfare and mental illness. I mean, it, it really, you are correct. I would say that it definitely needs to be studied because it is destructive and it is terrifying.

I would say, you know, to this day, my sister's and I, we can watch any murder movie or, you know, here to crime. But anything with like a spiritual element, it's just, it's terrifying because it just reminds us of that, like, you know, anyone could be a witch.

If you see a crow, that could be a witch. Mass is a crow, a black cat is spying on you. You know, it's very much like, I remember, you know, I had acne in high school who doesn't.

It's like, well, someone's cursing you, you know, like, it's almost out of, there's a movie in the 90s called The Craft. And it's like these high school girls that were witches or whatever. And I mean, that's kind of like what we believed.

It was like, this is real life. Like, you know, but yeah, I would definitely say it was like, I was terrified to leave the house without, I remember being, you know, I didn't put all my armor today.

So like before leaving the threshold of the door, stopping and being like, okay, helmet of salvation. Rest plated righteous. You know, that whole, it was almost like an OCD tick. You know, I mean, if you think about it, like,

yeah, sorry, I'm rambling, but you talked about that. And it's like, I mean, my sister self rings up. She's like, remember that lady that mom and dad were friends with that said that God had given her special authority to call down judgment on people.

I was like, yes, you know, it's like, yeah, it's kind of growing up with that. It's like, oh, well, God gave me special power to call down judgment. And it's like, okay, you know, yeah, it's really bad.

Because what happens is people, they live in this cultural fear so long that they finally disassociate. And the leadership is aware that they disassociate. So they can sell them weather sticks. They're not living in reality.

They're living in a fantasy world. Yes. So you've talked about all of these places that you've been. How were you able to get out of that fantasy world? Oh, I love this question. I would say, and this is why I just, I believe in God so much.

And, you know, I could be me overspiritualizing, whatever, but through time and relationships with steady kind people, I have found healing. So, God, thank God, I married a normal man, you know, it was like, this is weird, but when after we got married, we moved to DC, and I was attending a church that it was Anglican, and they definitely believed in the gifts.

And, but I just remember, I just married and, you know, I think I was having a nervous breakdown. I was crying all the time, crying, crying, crying, crying. Well, how's it been to know what to do?

I, you know, it was like paranoid. And honestly, more I've learned the more, you know, I've learned about like complex PTSD, borderline personnel, you know, that whole, so it's kind of that hysterical emotion.

So I'm kind of like, I was exhausted from like, I hop and just my up, like going, going, going, going, going, going, going, going, feeling like a failure, somehow missing it. But anyway, I would cry all the time.

And at the church that we were attending, they offered healing prayer. And so I was like, I'll do anything. And so I met with the pastor's wife. And I mean, she spent hours with me.

And at the end, she was like, have you ever considered seeing a therapist? I was like, what? You know, I was like, well, I've seen a Christian counselor, and she's like, no, no. She's like, not a Christian counselor.

She's like an actual psychotherapist. And I was like desperate enough because I was raised very much the therapist, you know, that whole, like, they're going to plant memories in there. You know, not of God, like, they're going to push medication on you.

It's very, so scary. Like, it's very paranoid. Raise. and much not to trust anyone. But she was so kind and tender and had spent so much time with me, and I trusted her. And so she said, you should see a therapist.

And she's like, in fact, here is a person that you, I recommend, that I recommend everybody. And so I ended up seeing that therapist. And she was a believer, but she didn't advertise herself as that.

And it was very, I mean, it's been years. But gosh, I'm 44. That was when I was 29 or so. It was just like walking me through, whether it's EMDR or just talking through stuff.

And that sounds unhealthy. It doesn't sound like God or whatever. A trusted person. And then she encouraged me to try SSRIs or Medicaid. Of course, that was Satan. And I know people have strong opinions.

For me, personally, it helped me. I believe that. But it really was, honestly, it was fighting for my health. And I would say having people outside the movement that cared for me and that there was some where I wanted to keep that relationship.

I'm like, I feel unhealthy, and I'm exhausted. And what I've been doing is not working. Even though I'm told, they had an answer for everything. It's like, oh, you're gay. Well, you just need deliverance.

Oh, you have an eating disorder. And I think the eating disorder thing for me was really hard because when I entered for that youth minister, I confided in his wife. I'm struggling with this.

And she counseled me. And then I came back with the same issue. And she's like, they didn't understand. You should be free of this now. A lot of shame in that. I think in the more charismatic movement, they have an answer for everything.

Everything's boxed in. They don't know how to deal with nuance. And so if you are still struggling with an issue, it is your fault. And that wasn't the case with other people who I trusted, who were Christians and non-Christians, too, but that were just kind and offered like a steady year.

But also a very upfront, that is an unhealthy relationship. Or that doesn't seem you should consider blank. And so I think, honestly, it's been therapy. And really, after having my own kids, and I still struggled with kind of making sense of what was all that, prophetic words.

I have KC. You're going to be in ministry. And really struggling with, I guess, I'm a big loser. I somehow missed God or whatever. And it wasn't until I was in that work environment where I went back to work.

And I was going to a Presbyterian church and experience the same. a type of toxic environment and was able to really,

it was seeing patterns, like honestly too. I studied history in college, it was my major, and somewhat it's curious, like I think curiosity is kind of frowned upon in a lot of these, so but I think being curious, like why do they think like that?

Or I mean, even with current events, it was like, I remember, and this seems unrelated, but it's sort of like 2015, when there was like the Ferguson, Missouri riots, like it was a lot of issues with race, and I also remember being like, why, you know, let me read about it, or whatever.

And I think that curiosity, the enjoyment of like reading history, my other sister was a history major, and so is that like talking about it. I mean, we studied like Cold War history, so you kind of see like patterned systems, and you start to like, connect the dots.

And it's being honest with yourself, it's like, okay, like this is not working. Like it's the constant, I'm repeating the same cycle over and over again, expecting a different result, and it's not happening.

Let me listen to this person's experience, I'm curious, you know, what healed them. And so, yeah, I mean, I've done one thing that was really helpful was dialectic behavior therapy. It's like just a group therapy.

It's really basic. It's like, Halt, H-A-L-T, are you hungry, angry, only tired, or whatever. It's like for emotional regulation. And I thank you for letting me talk this out, but I really think that that's kind of where I've landed is like, try, I mean, you're never gonna be perfect, but that emotional regulation, that there is so much peace and like steadiness in that, kind of like, okay, I'm feeling this way, I'm aware, why am I feeling this way?

Okay, and then being able to like settle yourself and then think logically about a situation, or it's okay, I'm gonna put that on the shelf, you know, I don't know that, yeah, and I think just fighting for, you know, I want to have a good relationship with my husband.

So being emotionally erratic and seeing a demon everywhere, like, that's not helping our relationship. And I don't want my children, you know, I want them to have a steady mother, that, you know, I'm not perfect, but like, hey, this is, and I don't want them to grow up with like, this terror of like the end of the world, you know, because that's kind of how we grew up, it was very much like, well, hopefully Jesus comes back soon, I remember being like, well, I don't want him to come back, like, I kind of want to, you know, live,

and then you get to IHOP where they're like, oh, you're not getting raptured, like, you're living through this hell, you know, and it's like, I hope, that you're close to him, because it's gonna be awful.

And you're just like, oh my, so it's funny, because my kids, you know, again, my husband was not raised that way at all. And my kids don't have that. And so my oldest came home from youth group, and he starts asking me about the rapture.

And I was like, how do you know about that? You know, I'm thinking like, and he had just said, he was like, well, in my small group, one of his friends brought up, like, please pray for my dad, because he's not saved.

And I'm afraid that he'll miss the rapture. And I was like, oh, buddy, you know, trying to explain kind of like what that is. But I felt for that kid, because I'm like, that child is carrying that torment, that like the rapture is real, and his dad is gonna burn in hell if he doesn't, you know, and so I'm just, there's a lot of that destructive, if you stop and think about it, it's like, and God is being enough, in my opinion, he can hold that.

Like, he's not, like, he can handle you, questioning your faith, you know, sinning, or whatever it is, like walking away, or just like being curious and asking questions, and it's like, but, you know, okay, like he's still God, like, so, whatever.

But yeah, I would say that just the kindness, and that's for me, it's like, I feel like, I hate using that term, because I feel like I have always said God's kindness, but where just time and time again, just have, I've looked back over the years, and just the, on my own fighting, but just the resources, like your resource, the podcasts, the various books I've read, and then just the relationship with solid people, who I can, yeah, you can trust, that let me hear their perspective, you know, and they're still my friend, if I don't agree with them.

So, yeah, whereas, you know, it's very cult-like in the Charismania. Yeah, it's so different to have a religion where the God is not powerless, and the God is not narcissistic, and won't just might you dead if you question her, or do anything like this.

So, I'm very glad you got out. Thank you so much for sharing your story. This has been fascinating. That's so amazing. I'm actually wanting to hear more. I'm actually sad that this is ending, so thank you for doing this.

Well, I'll be happy to come back. So, thank you so much for letting me share, I really appreciate it. So, I've never done this before. So, it's definitely part of the healing journey as well.

So, awesome. Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information or to share your story, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at william-branam.org. From more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR.

Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.