Can Christians Have Demons? Examining Deliverance Theology

Music Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Brannum Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Brannum Historical Research at William-Brannum.org and with me I have my co-host, minister and friend, Chenle Ross, pastor and the voice of the understanding, scripture, and truth by Chenle D Ross YouTube channel.

Chenle is good to be back and to talk about deliverance. I've mentioned this a few times on the podcast but we used to go to different churches. You know, I live from everywhere from Indiana, Arizona and South Carolina, everywhere in between and I would go to these churches often without my parents to visit the young folks at one of the churches that were in the main sect of Brannumism and there would be these altar calls where the kids were just scared to death that they had either come to the church.

They had either caught a demon, had lost their salvation, never found their salvation, never had any blanket of security at all in Christianity and I was right there with them. I started reading my Bible. The funny part is I kind of got out of that mindset and it was just simply by reading the Bible and learning that I did have a security blanket.

But there were an awful lot of people who, unlike me, they also did read their Bibles but they really didn't have any security because they might go to Walmart and catch an accidental demon right there from the aisles in Walmart.

In fact, I had this one friend who never would go into Walmart. I don't know if it was because of the demons or whatnot but you could not get him to set a foot into a public store like this.

I had to think about it one day. They just had a so wrapped up in fear about every single aspect of our lives that they basically robbed our lives from us. I don't think you're exaggerating at all about Walmart. I told the story. It's been months ago of one young lady who was a part heavily deep in long term, a faith assembly, Hobart Freeman's church in Northern Indiana. They were, she was, as a child terrified of Masonic lodges that you couldn't get anywhere near one or you might pick up pick up. That was always the phrase.

Just like their hitchhiker in the field. When you walk those little burrs that attach to your pants we call hitchhikers because you literally are walking through the field and accidentally those things attach themselves to the leg of your pants.

And it's a little burr and you have a hitchhiker and they treated demonology the same way that you could more or less Just be somewhere and then accidentally and this was the phrase pick up a spirit So I hear what you're saying John and I think it seems to me from what I hear that you're Your exit from randomism is is was very gradual, you know You probably began to see things early on before you ever We're willing to throw out, you know the entire movement just this this weirdness concerning the teachings in in that background regarding deliverance that everything was so hyper

spooky and Your your Christianity was was nothing secure at all and it involved So much work and so much precaution on your part to Determine if you're saved and if you're saved How can I be certain that I'm saved and how can I make sure that I don't lose what I think I have So yeah, it's just an absolute Train wreck of theology that I don't think has any basis in scripture Last week for some reason we ran out of time To finish the topic I was on and that was simply looking at some of the men who had influenced Dr. Freeman's teaching on demons and deliverance I

have Over the last few months tried repeatedly to emphasize the fact That Hobart God his theology from just a variety of different sources and the reason that I have tried to stress that is I know Having been a former listener of Freeman back in the 1970s and early 80s that he always came across as really intelligent person Who could teach on a vast variety of topics and along with that came the Impression and listening to him that he got all this on his own He never really said now. Let me tell you here's my background

Concerning my struggle with Let's say clothing I was a part of the brethren denomination and their old order and they forbid this that and the other So that's why I've had a struggle in my life over where whether or not I can wear a necktie and this is why I'm bringing all you people into bondage over Sodomite shoes and prostitute purses is this is my background He never said any of that you have to put all of that together yourself And so when you listen to his teachings on deliverance And I was a a young believer but I was a Christian several years before I ever heard Hobart

Freeman. So I had already heard the Derek princes of the world and the Don Bashams and all Roberts. I didn't know who William Brannum was. I'd never heard that name. But you know, a lot of the other people, at least the people who were alive and current in the mid-70s, I was familiar with them.

I had already heard them. And so then when you began listening to Hobart and he starts teaching on demons and deliverance, I then wasn't able to put the pieces of the puzzle together and connect the dots and say, oh, I see. He got this pleading the blood of Jesus' business and it's craziness to yell out. I plead the blood of Jesus. That's just crazy. The Bible, nobody does that in the Bible.

And I'm sure I will catch, you know, hate mail over this, but I'm sorry. But those are the facts. Nobody in the New Testament, when Paul was about to have a shipwreck in the Mediterranean Sea in Acts 27, he and Luke is with him. They don't say, we plead the blood of Jesus against this storm.

People just didn't do that because that's not what it's all about. I didn't realize Hobart had gotten that from Maxwell White. I didn't realize that he had been a big follower of Derek Prince who he ended up, you know, parting ways with because he's a shepherd ship bondage covering teacher. I didn't know that he was friends with Don Basham and was recommending Don Basham's book that came out in the early 70s entitled to deliver us from evil, all of which was a deliverance manual.

So those were some of the names we talked about last time. I want to mention a couple of other names that were big influencers in Hobart's life. One of them was a Baptist pastor in Indiana whose name was Wynn Worley. He was a little bit younger than Hobart and died later than Hobart. All of these guys, you know, live way longer than Hobart's 64 years. But he was a Baptist pastor in Highland Indiana, which I think is up near Hammond, Indiana, which is up near Chicago. Anyway, he had a book entitled Baddling the Hosts of Hell. So I mean, you can tell what that's about, Baddling the Hosts of

Hell. And it almost reminds me of something you would see maybe Saturday morning cartoons or something with these, you know, I don't know these gigantic metal figurines and you've got to battle them and try to smash them. Just the title of the book. I know now, John, I wouldn't have known 50 years ago. I would go, yeah, let's go battle the hosts of hell. But now I go, oh, come on.

Surely Jesus has done something for me. Surely something was accomplished on the cross where I don't have to go and battle these hosts of hell. I know these kinds of cartoon figurines and things are your specialty, so you're probably dying to say something.

You saw it all over my face. I went and saw the Masters of the Universe movie recently, which if you're a cartoon fan from the 80s, this is... According to one of my friends, this is the greatest movie ever. I don't know if I'll go that far, but I too was a fan.

The interesting part is I was not allowed to be a fan in the 80s, as was most of the charismatic movement. Somewhere, if I can find it for this podcast, I'll put it on the screen. I don't know if I can find it.

But there is one of the shepherding deliverance magazines that put out this whole article about how the He-Man cartoon would bring your children to hell. It's funny because if you like nostalgia and you go back and you watch some of the old ones, they all have this moral to the story that's teaching you usually something pretty good.

And sadly, I've listened to a lot of sermons that doesn't teach you something pretty good, so the He-Man actually wins as compared to some of these sermons, which is funny when you think about it.

But they were and are so adamant that you can accidentally catch a demon, and they're the ones who can fix the problem. And I don't know if you have met salesmen like this, but they're the salesmen that they will convince you that you have a problem, then convince you that they have the solution for the problem.

And in the end, they're the ones who wins, no matter what it is. And these guys, some of them are calling artists, some of them are legitimate salesmen, but they're really good at what they do.

If you can convince somebody that they have a need and you have the solution, this is how you conquer the world, especially in the sales world. It goes the same way with ministers. If you can convince your congregation that they are going to catch a demon, but if they come to you for the solution, you're the one who reaps all the benefits and usually all of the tide.

And I have to think long term, the damage done by sitting under these ministers is greater than the damage done watching some cartoons on Saturday morning. I remember watching Batman and Superman when I was a child. I don't have any lasting effects from watching Batman and Superman, but we all have lasting effects from having listened to William Branham and Hope Art Freeman. And isn't that ironic?

The very things they're outlawing did not produce the long term psychological baggage that listen to these ministers did. So when Wurley was the author of this battling the hosts of hell, he also was well known.

Even though he was a Baptist minister, I think he had had some experience in exorcism. And anytime anybody, any minister thought he had been successful in casting out a demon or two, then he became an authority on that subject.

There were Roman Catholic priests who were known as exorcists in the Catholic charismatic renewal movement because they had had, in their mind, some success in casting out demons. And I think when Wurley was one of these, he had other phrases that I know he used in his ministry.

And the reason I'm gonna mention these is because these were the saturated Hobart Freemans theology. So again, like I talked last time, John, about the seed picker or the gutter sparrow. This is what Hobart was.

He was a seed picker just picking up little scraps of second hand knowledge wherever he could find it and trying to mold and meld it into his own theology and then convincing the people listening to him that I'm the only one who knows all of this and I have received all of this directly from God.

One of the phrases Wurley used, and it's a biblical phrase was to phrase the children's bread. And it comes from that story in the gospel accounts where the foreign woman from up in Syria had a daughter who was demon possessed and asked Jesus for help.

And Jesus said, well, it's not me to take the children's bread and to give it to you. And so that became kind of a catchphrase for deliverance and this is where we're going eventually and I talk today, deliverance being for the children of God, for Christian people because this is the children's bread.

So Hobart talked about children's bread all the time. He sometimes would use it in reference to deliverance, probably more often he would use it in reference to divine healing that this is the children's bread.

Another phrase that Wurley was somewhat popular for using was the phrase body ministry. And you can show a picture of one of Hobart's early classic books. I have my little original, we call it the bubble book because it has these bubbles on it.

This pink bubble book called Body Ministry. This is my original copy if you open it. You see that there's my handwriting from, I got this on May the 10th of 1976. And again, when you look on the inside page, you see that this was still being mailed out when Hobart had his home in the little church under the water tower in Claypool.

And then they have stamped down on here the new address. So this is his book Charismatic Body Ministry. And all of this terminology I'm saying came from other people children's bread even though I know it's in the Bible He didn't get that from reading Matthew 15 Hope I got that from when worldly or someone else and the same is true with this body ministry stuff And then a a final person and we'll go to another topic, but a final heavy weight married couple from the 1960s and 70s Were Frank and item a Hammond

Frank was born. I think the same year or the year after Hobart So they were the same age. He lived way up into the 2000s You know, he lived to be a ripe old age, but you have a husband and wife kind of like Tag team wrestling if one of them doesn't get to you the other one will Frank and item a Hammond They wrote John a million copy bestseller entitled pigs in the parlor This was just a huge book back in the early 1970s And you can see the cover is just I don't even know what that cover is, but it's just unforgettable

It's you know, I've never forgotten whoever worked in the art department of that publishing company came up with a great design For the front cover of pigs in the parlor, but let me just read a little blurp here for

Frank Hammond's ministry and you can find this online Hammond taught that Ethical issues, but just listen to what is Possibly potentially demonic Hammond taught that ethical issues such as resentment and gossiping Together with issues such as compulsive eating forgetfulness sexual problems mental illness They all may be calls by demons requiring deliverance ministry and that such individuals may require that deliverance He and his wife item a have been called quote perhaps the most influential practitioners of The deliverance ministry I mean they were just huge again I think Frank Frank and item a had had some early experience with

Casting out demons fancy themselves as knowledgeable on the topic and You know then wrote this incredibly successful bestseller I mean, it was a million copy bestseller back in the 70s I don't know if it's still in print today. I don't know if people are still buying it today But it had a huge influence on people I knew of that book before ever heard of Hobart Freeman and it's a fascinating book. And it's, you know, what can I say? It's, it's very reminiscent of what I remember Hobart teaching that just about anything can be a demon. And so you need to be aware of

this, that and the other. And, you know, people back then, if you look at the title, pigs in the parlor, the title itself is unforgettable. And you say, what in the world? Where do you come up with something like pigs in the parlor? Well, remember, there's a probably the most famous story in the Gospels of Deliverance involved pigs. And that's the Gaterine Demaniac there on the eastern side of the Sea of Galilee. Jesus had traveled over there. He didn't leave the boundaries of Israel very often to minister, but occasionally he did. One of them was the

Siro Finitian woman. I mentioned a few minutes ago up in North and Syria in Matthew 15. But occasionally, he would go to the other side of the Sea of Galilee into an area that we know was called the decapillus. There were 10 Greek cities over there. It was very Hellenistic. It was not Jewish.

Hence, you could find somebody who had a big herd of pigs. You would not have found that in Israel because that was an unclean animal under the mosaic law. And so people back in the 70s, I can remember hearing teaching about demons that they were, I remember hearing them called disembodied spirits. You say, what is a demon? Well, a demon is a disembodied spirit. And this disembodied spirit desires a home quote unquote. He needs some type of fleshly vehicle or house to live in. And so that's why they possess people. And so going back, if we, I think we all remember in

Christian circles, the gathering Demaniac deliverance account in the Gospels, it's in Matthew 8 and Mark 5. The demon Legion asked permission when Jesus was about to cast him out of this poor depraved soul here who was naked and living in a graveyard in an unclean area and cutting himself. And no one could could could confine him. He had incredible above human strength.

So he was obviously quite obviously demon possessed. And they asked permission to enter the pigs, you know. So that's hence the title of the book. And that's often cited, I think, as biblical proof for the fact that demons were disembodied spirits and they're looking for a body to live in.

But I It's say I am totally unaware of any place in the old or the New Testament that ever, whatever call a demon, some type of being that formally had a body and is therefore a disembodied spirit. You know, they never had a body. They're demons. They're spirits. That's what they're called unclean spirits. They, they never had a body. And, you know, if you had John, maybe nothing else to go on in Matthew 8 and Mark 5 and you see these demons requesting permission to enter this man and go into this herd of swine. If you didn't have anything else, you know, you could say, well,

possibly they're wanting to live in a home. They need a body because they used to have a body, which I don't believe the Bible ever teaches. But if you had nothing else to go on, maybe you could say, well, they're looking for a body to inhabit. But, but are there any other,

are there any other reasons why, you know, they could be requesting this. This is just the standard. And I'm always a little bit leery of what is the standard answer you always hear in our circles.

The standard answer is they needed a home. And once they let lost this man as their home, they needed to go into another home, another host. And so they wanted to go into the swine. And the reason they wanted to do that is because they need a home. Well, look, we could just pause and say, I mean, I can sit here and think, are there any other possible reasons why they wanted to go into the swine? One, maybe they just hated pigs. Maybe they just hated, maybe all demons hate all pigs. Maybe that's why they wanted to go in because they went in and they killed them all.

I don't think that's the reason, but maybe that's the reason it doesn't say it is or it isn't. It just says that they did go into them. But look, if they do need a home and this host of several thousand pigs provided enough homes for all of these demons, then it doesn't make any sense that they immediately kill them all. That doesn't make any sense. If they're needing a home, they get permission to enter the pigs. They go in the pigs and they kill them all. Now where are they going to go? I think if we read the narrative carefully, what the demons wanted to do was to stir up

opposition to Jesus. And by killing all those pigs, that is exactly what the narrative goes on to say that the people went into town, told everyone they came out. They're very upset with Jesus and they said, please get out of here, which he did. He got in a boat and went back to the other side of the Sea of Galilee. But this whole pig story, which is a biblical story, I believe 100% It happened and it is fascinating.

This has been the basis for pigs in the parlor and this has been the basis John for all kinds of fanciful ideas about disembodied spirits, demons, people, and pigs. I'm one of these people that make a lot of people mad whenever I start asking questions, but I always ask questions.

I've learned that this is a really useful tool and it makes a lot of people really upset whenever they can't answer them. And at the same time, you have a lot of people who don't ask questions, who give a lot of answers and have not yet thought about the questions that deserve those answers.

And I'm saying that that was as delicately and as nicely as I can say this. One of the churches that we attended, the, you know, we had left this demonology, this mess that we left and we started going to mainstream churches and we found that the infection spread far beyond the, the latirane movement, et cetera.

And one of the infected churches held this big conference, and the gymnasium, brought, invited all the people and they were going to tell everybody how demonology worked. And the, the things that proceeded out of their mouth, man, there's just no way that they stopped and thought about it.

They were literally scaring every single person sitting there thinking that they're gonna catch a demon when they left the building and went to their house. They were talking, one example was demons, they would give you this thing that would make you feel comfort.

Demons are not omnipresent. Only God is omnipresent, which sounds good. And then they would give you the alternative which they had come up with, concocted. There is no biblical reference for this. They said, so what they have to do is they have to network.

They might be inside of your aunt and you say something to your aunt and the demon hears it. So he tells the other demon and by the end of the train, by the end of the chain of people, you might walk into a mall and you might run into a demon right there in the mall because they know you're going there.

And I'm giving an example that was almost like what they said. I don't have the exact words, but the effect was the same. You might catch a demon or you might interact with a demon without even knowing it and you're powerless in front of this demon.

And I get to thinking about it, I've read the Bible at that point, I had not read it as many times as I have now. But at that point, I had read it covered a cover probably two times, three times.

And the summation of what I got was that yes, they described these things that you're talking about in the Old Testament. Yes, Jesus came and rendered all of them powerless and said it is finished.

And then we're living in the New Testament gospel and you don't find people don't document these things like they did back in the Old Testament. So you wonder was it finished to Jesus really conquer death and hell and the demons like the Bible says because you don't find history.

Koreans writing, I watched a thousand demons go into a body of a thousand pigs after Jesus did this, right? So either you have to question whether the people just didn't know, did these demons after Jesus came and died for everybody and conquered the conquer death hell and the demons and said it is finished, did the people just simply not know that the demons existed or did he really conquer everything like he said?

I started to think in the end, it really didn't matter to me, I didn't care to know about the demons, I'm not going to be with the demons, why are we having a conference about demons?

And in the end, I came to the conclusion it was really just to scare people to make them think that the ministers had some sort of a power over the demons, that's the only reason why you would have this kind of thing.

And it started to make me angry, I got a little flushed in the face kind of like I probably am now thinking about why would you do this to people, why would you scare your audience?

For no other reason than to make them think that they might catch a demon on the way out and come to service on Sunday and give me your tithe. Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism, transition through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation?

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Hobart laughed at, he did have a really cute response to the fact, he would say, I have been introduced on stages behind podiums across the country as, this is the man who believes there's a demon behind every bush.

Hobart actually had a funny response to that and he would say, I'd stand up and correct him and say, no, no, no, that is not true at all. I do not believe there is a demon behind every bush.

I believe there too, behind every bush. So he had a great response to that and that was him. That was definitely him. So you've just described of the fear associated with this and just the confusing nature of it all and the silliness of having a seminar on...

Deliverance. And remember, that's what Hobart went to in June of 1966 to Dallas, Texas. It was a deliverance seminar. We're going to teach you guys about demons and the deliverance ministry. And one of the things that Dr. Freeman was adamant about and famous for

was his teaching that Christians are the ones who are in need of it. And see, you just said, you'd go to a deliverance seminar. Well, that's, that's a seminar who's invited as the participants and attend these Christian people. They're not going out in the highways and byways trying to get people. They're getting Christian people there. And Hobart said it's Christians who are the ones in need of deliverance. And I guess he would say, well, so does everybody else out there in the world, but they're never going to get it. But we are going to get it.

We are the ones who are in the body of Christ where the ones in need of deliverance and all Christians are in need of deliverance. So we do have, and he said this a hundred times, but we've got a small clip. We're going to play from one of his messages when he was teaching in the book of Acts, which is a series he did back early 1974. I said in the last podcast or two with you, John, that it was like 60s and early 70s when this occupied at least 50% of his ministry and teaching.

He was just fascinated by it and thought this was a great deal and thought this was a big part of his calling as a minister. And so he would teach on it all the time. And so here we are, he's going through the book of Acts. Okay. He's in Acts 16, which would be

in Philippi. He's traveling through Asia Minor and then he's traveling through Greece. So I just want people to think this is Acts 16. They can turn to their own Bibles and see what is in Acts 16. What, what all could you talk about if you're going to teach on Acts 16? And he has a message entitled Deserning of Spirits because we have the example of the fortune telling young lady who's used by her master. She evidently has some kind of ability to be a sus there or a fortune teller and predict things. So they've employed her and they're making money off of her

ability. She sees Paul and Luke and their other traveling companions and she says these are the servants of the most high God that tell us the way of salvation. So he is going to then teach a message, a whole message. You know, you pull out of the chapter that the versus that deal with demonology and deliverance because that's what you want to talk about anyway.

You know, that's a big part of your ministry. And so this is just a very small clip from 18 minutes and 40 seconds to 18 minutes and 55 seconds. 99% of the people I prayed for for deliverance and I prayed for countless hundreds were Christian.

99% even more than that, probably 99 and a half percent. I prayed for countless hundreds for deliverance from all called involved. A classic whole bar frame and what does he say? 99% of the people I pray for for deliverance or Christians.

99% and then he goes on to say, I think it's more than I think it's 99 and a half percent of the people I pray for for deliverance are Christians. So yes, John, these are Christian people.

These are post Calvary, post Pentecost, post the completion of the New Testament canon of Scripture. You know, this is not, this isn't, we're not talking about Canaanites. We're talking about people post everything in the New Testament.

99% of the people, Hobart says, that come up here and ask for deliverance and that I pray for and that I cast demons out of 99% of the Christians. Now he'll get fancy sometimes and tiptoe around the term possession and he'll say, well now, that's just an academic discussion whether they're possessed, depressed, obsessed with whatever word you want to use.

He would hesitate to say, possess, but if you ever would challenge him, how can a Christian have a demon? He would say, don't sit there in your ivory tower because I have the experience and I cast thousands of demons out of thousands of people and 99 and a half percent of them are Christians.

And then if you don't agree with that, you know exactly John, what will happen if you would want to disagree and not argue but discuss that, then it becomes a circular argument. The reason you don't agree with me is because you have a demon.

When that's not the way these things work, that's the topic, Hobart, you and I, I would like to discuss with you. You can't assume the conclusion and put the conclusion in your premise. We are trying to discuss and decide based on Scripture whether a Christian can have a demon.

And I never got to talk to Hobart about it, but I did get to talk to some of his other ministers about it. And as soon as you disagreed, I'm telling you, deliverance was huge with people.

like Jim Oswald, who was one of Hobart's underlings. I don't even think Jim Oswald is alive anymore, but after Hobart's death, I know he went down to Alabama and just had this huge deliverance ministry quote unquote, and it was a train wreck, what it did to people's lives, and I've heard from them.

There was another man whom I have met personally, but his name was big back in the day. He was never in Indiana. He was always down in Louisiana, and his name was Robert Ellender.

And if you ever heard the name Robert Ellender, then what went right behind that was deliverance minister, not faith teacher, not healing teacher, not manifested sons teacher, although I'm sure he would believe all of that.

It was deliverance minister. And I don't want to say anything at all that would hurt Robert Ellender's feelings or his reputation. I have met him and I love him, and I just think there are things that maybe he should consider about some of his upbringing under Hobart Freeman.

And one of them would be Hobart Freeman's teaching on deliverance. But as I said, it just becomes a circular argument. And this is true with anything, John, with in their realm, if you try to argue against your view on divine healing, it becomes a circular argument.

But this one with demon possession is peculiar because if you want to discuss debate and argue against that, then that becomes their whole method of proving to you that you have a demon. For you to even argue with me, John, oh, that a Christian can have a demon, proves that you have a demon.

And I would say, no, no, no, no, that's a circular argument. We've got to demonstrate that from some other source other than my objection to what I think is your false teaching. You mentioned the people who disagree, they might have a demon.

It's one of the best ways to solve an argument. You know, if you disagree with me, why don't believe what did you say? You got a demon. When I started critically thinking about this, I was left with one of two possibilities.

Either the whole thing was false or the way that they were teaching it to me was false. You had to choose one of two pathways. And I started thinking about just simply the writing of the Bible because you don't, you're not really allowed to critically think about that in these types of circles, but take your pigs example.

So there's a bunch of pigs and they run off of a cliff and you say that they had demons in them. For an author to have written this, he would have just simply written a bunch of pigs ran off a cliff.

He wouldn't have said that they were infested with demons unless he literally saw something to make him write that. That's how the Bible works. They see something, they write it. We've talked about the...

nuances of this, there are things that the ancient world just simply didn't understand in the way that we understand it today, so they could write from their perspective. But from their perspective, even in the ancient perspective, you would just simply write that these pigs ran off of a cliff.

You would not say that the demons went into them unless they saw something. During the days of the Apostles, they're going around their spreading Christianity, and the demons are fleeing just in the name of Jesus.

You don't even have to worry about pigs and being infested with demons. The demons are just running by mentioning the name. And interestingly, if you fast-forward to the movie world, the very thing that the movement condemns, I just watched something the other day, it wasn't religious at all, but they were fighting some scary thing that they didn't know what it was, and they just simply mentioned the name of Jesus in it, streaked and ran off.

John Holley would understand that there's power in the name of Jesus if you're a Christian, right? But this movement wants to undo that and teach you that there is not power in the name of Jesus, that there is instead power in the name of the manifested Son who's there on stage to deliver you from all evil.

He really becomes the replacement for Jesus. And once that thought hit me, as I'm trying to untangle all of this mess that was in my head, what I realized was not only did we have some other religion that wasn't Christianity, we actually had something that was anti-Christianity.

Because if you believe something else is a replacement for Jesus, it is the antithesis of Jesus. Therefore, it was an anti-Christian movement. When that hit me, I started getting very upset because they were tricking people, they're using the name Jesus, they're using the word Christianity to label this movement, and it's just the exact opposite.

And they're using John Biblical passages all the time. Hobart was an expert with stringing together passages. But again, there are passages that are maybe 99.5% of the time taken out of context. And so it became so confusing.

Hobart would list, and so would these other deliverance ministers, literally hundreds, hundreds of characteristics. We read a couple of them from that blurb on Frank Hammond, anything from overeating to under-eating, to drinking too much alcohol, to not drinking enough, to oversleeping, to under-sleeping, to anger, resentment, bitterness, jealousy, gossip, just anything you could mention.

There are hundreds and hundreds of characteristics. And to your point, John, of slowing down and thinking through it, and I'm always happy to do that. I've never just thrown anything out, well, I can't say I've never thrown anything out immediately.

Sometimes you just throw it out immediately. as you know, it's crazy, but it's okay to pause and say, you know, I'll consider that as the truth, as a possibility of being true. And then let me just think through this.

Of course, our movements never allow to do that. It's all received by the spirit, you know, and if you don't have the spirit, then you're not in tune, you're not in step and you probably have a demon to boot.

You don't have the spirit and you do have a demon. But that's never the way real progression of knowledge is acquired. It is by analyzing and questioning. And you can question and not doubt.

You can just say before, I'm going to totally accept that. I have a couple of questions here. And then, so you go to the pigs, you know, you say, well, maybe those demons went into the pigs because all demons hate all pigs.

That is a possible answer. I don't think it's the correct one. But it's possible, right? The text doesn't refute that as a possible reason why they went into the pigs. But of course, nobody likes John in our circles.

Anybody to question anything and to challenge and challenge it in the right spirit. I have used this my whole teaching ministry and I don't know where I first learned this, but it's my little saying called my faithful friends.

And I think I've probably said it on here before, but it goes like this, I had six faithful friends. They taught me all I knew. Their names are how and what and why, when and where and who.

Their names are how and what and why, when and where and who. That's how we learn by asking questions. I had six faithful friends. They've taught me everything I knew. Their names are how and what and why, when and where and who.

If we would practice that more often, whenever we go and sit in a pew and listen to a minister or turn on the TV and listen to a commercial, everything needs to be filtered.

If not challenged, it needs to be filtered and say, no, wait a minute, let me ask this, that and the other about this, because look, if there are hundreds and hundreds of possible demons and they hide behind sleeplessness and apathy and depression and giggling people who laugh too much, I've heard.

They might have a demon, people that don't laugh. They might have a demon. Everybody might have a demon. So when you look at these characteristics, all of us have at least some of these in our lives.

You know, we all have some of these. So yes, then you're to the place that everybody needs deliverance. Everything in your life could possibly be caused by a demon. And look, as soon as you go down that path and as soon as you accept, that premise, this premise, everything, everything in your life could be caused by a demon, then you are left second guessing yourself for the rest of your life. There's just no end to it.

I have a handwritten piece, John, that you can show everyone from Dr. Freeman's own files. As everyone knows, who's listening to this, I have to the chagrin of Freemanite still in the world today. I have all of Dr. Freeman's files, all of his sermons, all of his handwritten notes, everything, and this was a handwritten note of Dr. Freeman's, he was planning on using in some teaching, and I don't know what teaching he ended up using it in, but it was from the end of 12, 15, 1982. This is two years before Hobart was going to die, and it was about a woman

that came up to him for deliverance in a meeting that he held in Boston. Here's my little copy of the handwritten note, but he talks about laying hands on this woman and he's going to cast spirits out of her. He always talked about how they would manifest. Sometimes they don't manifest, sometimes you take it by faith. Again, it was just utterly confusing. You just never knew.

If you had a demon, or if you didn't, and if it had left, or if it was still you, you literally never knew. So he's going to cast out spirits, which would manifest, they manifested coughing, grimacing, contortions of face and hands, tried to remove my hand from head. This is all Hobart Freeman's own personal handwriting. Some were crying, no, we are many. That's borrowing the phrase in Mark 5, the statement made by Legion saying, we are many. Then he lists the spirits in this woman and listen to these, asthma, suicide, lung cancer, tuberculosis, anti-Christ, hate, female troubles

in parenthesis, no period, sorcery, infosima, bowel infirmity. I can't believe this lady is still standing, witchcraft, control spirit, fortune telling, divination, craving suites. He has that underline, craving suites. Sometimes I crave suites. I have eaten more than my fair share of donuts in one setting many times, but I don't think that I have a donut demon. I just don't think that I do. Anyway, craving suites and then he has food.

because he's going to talk about this. And so evidently, this woman drank a bottle of syrup or she would eat a box of brown sugar and just on and on and on, all kinds of, so she has everything from antichrist.

Wow, that's just about the worst spirits you could have to eating too much brown sugar. This same lady has all of that in her and he's going to cast all of these spirits out.

This is this, this was Hobart Freeman's ministry. I am not exaggerating at all. If you listen to his teaching on deliverance, you read his track, you read his angels of light book, hundreds of characteristics, hundreds of possibilities, you could literally have anything and these poor people never knew if they had something or not.

You know, I have to agree with the man on one single aspect, however. If you've ever had a fifth avenue candy bar, they've gotta have a demon in it because every time you walk past that stand that's got him, you gotta reach out and grab one and I'm diabetic, so it's, but the problem is, we trust these people with everything and we trust them to the extent that we think that they can diagnose our diseases.

That's really the problem. I don't wanna go too far with this because it's out of place but we have been dealing with some mental health issues and a family member and one of the more reputable people who holds these conferences started having a conference that you could remote into and I was listening in just to hear, over here, some of it.

And I came to realize that they're much like the deliverance ministers. There are people who really don't have any degree. They try to diagnose everything from their hip pocket but yet there are some things that you can take value in, some of the things that they say and the other things you have to just really stop and say, don't really trust what they're saying there.

Let me go verify that and if you take that approach, even with Freeman, you're not that bad off. You can take what he says which is good and there might be some things. I've listened to it, I couldn't find a whole lot but there might be some things but there's a whole lot that you just say, that man's really full of it.

Let's ignore that part, let's keep the good. And I think if you take that approach to everything you don't end up into the chaos that was made, this person for the mental health issues, they're really good at getting people to recognize that there is an issue to go to a professional so that would be a strength on the downside whenever they get into the diagnosing.

That was one of the critical analysis that I was reading about this person. You don't really want this person who's not a professional to diagnose your issues. The problem is that carries forward into these deliverance ministries, they're the diagnoser, they're the healer, they're the one who peers onto the other side and tells you are they saved, are they not?

There's all kinds of weird things that they do. do. So they're blending sorcery with medicine, with clinical analysis. The whole bit, they believe they're a walking x-ray machine in some cases. And in the end, they're only good for one piece of it. And that piece is, are you saved? Do you have an issue that needs healing? Can we pray for you? And then the whole rest of it, if you ignore everything after that, it's actually not that bad. But the problem is they didn't, they believed every single thing without fact checking it. Yeah, they're Christian ministers. We should

be teaching the Bible. You know, we should try to be an expert on teaching something from the Bible. And they just chased rabbits is what they did. You know, healing, deliverance, sorcery, witchcraft, all drugs come from, you know, from pharmacia, and that's witchcraft.

So, you know, it was just, people were so confused. I can remember hearing Dr. Freeman tell a story. I don't know what message just was on. But I remember the story. I remember the name of someone named Dr. Ware. It was at an FGBMFI meeting, a full gospel meeting in Cochamo, Indiana. And this would have been on one of Hobart's early tapes where literally everything is a spirit. Everything is a demon. And Derek Prince was the one ministering at this particular seminar and a friend of Hobart's, a man by the name of Dr. Ware was

there. And there was a man up front who had come. Derek Prince was very well known for his deliverance ministry as well. And I'm sure there are definitely good parts to Derek Prince's ministry, you know, as well as probably most of these guys. But when they thought they could specialize, as you just said, John, they thought they were experts in everything, you know, from medical science to mental health. And so that would cover the healing and the deliverance area. Then they definitely got themselves into trouble.

But a man came up in the prayer line in this full gospel meeting in Cochamo, Indiana. And he was a smoker. And so Derek Prince cast a spirit of nicotine out of him. I've heard this happen in many, many other places. What was interesting about this time is Dr.

Freeman is relaying the story. I'm relaying it to you. Dr. Freeman relayed it to me. Dr. Ware relayed it to him. You know, all these stories are second, third, fourth, fifth, tenth hand. Dr. Ware said, I was sitting on an aisle seat. And after Derek Prince said, I command that unclean spirit of nicotine to come out of this man and depart. He said, that nicotine spirit, I felt it rush right by my side and I smelled him. I smelled nicotine as he went by me. People hear these stories and they are so fascinated and they are so desperate for

help. And they think, wow, I have tried to quit smoking. And let me just say, I have never been a smoker. I know smokers, and I know that is a powerful addiction. You can call it demonic, you can call it non-demonic.

I know it is difficult to give up. I'm not gonna say it's never demonic, but I'm certainly not gonna say it's always demonic. You know, John, when I'm similar to you, I have read my Bible a lot, and spirits of nicotine, spirits of drunkenness, spirits of gossiping, come out of her in the name of Jesus.

I do see spirits in the New Testament. I see spirits that Jesus cast out that had calls blindness and dumbness and deafness and mental illness. And he said, come out, you deaf and dumb spirit.

And when the spirit came out, we saw that the spirit was gone. The person now could hear and could speak again.

But we don't have a whole lot of that in acts. We don't have any of that in the epistles. I would just warn people to major on the majors and minor on the minors, and make sure we're reading our Bible and seeing what is actually said there.

And what is actually said, John, why do we have all of these warnings in the Old Testament against drunkenness? If it's just a demon, why didn't the writers of the Old Testament say, now some of you guys are gonna get end up getting possessed with demons and you're gonna need them cast out.

Why all the warnings of put the bottle down before you get drunk, put the fort down before you overeat? Why do we have all of these admonitions in what we call the epistles in the New Testament, and they were literally letters to young churches sent by the early apostles.

And what were they addressing 99% of the time? They're addressing the activities of the early Christians. The apostles were saying, don't give in to the lusts of your flesh. They didn't say you guys gotta go through a lot of deliverance sessions.

No, they did not. That is not what you find in the early epistles. As you said earlier, whatever happened to the cleansing and the new creation that happens at the new birth, isn't Jesus enough?

Is there no power in the new birth, no power in conversion, no power in salvation? Paul said in 2 Corinthians 5, 17, if any man be in Christ, he is a new creation. All things are passed away, behold, all things have become new.

Again, I'm not ruling out that there might be a need for some deliverance at some point in somebody's life, but notice how vague I am on that. Because... I've never been through any kind of deliverance session.

And of course, that they would say, well, it shows channel because you disagree with us on all of this stuff. I've never been through any deliverance session. You know, there's power in the new birth.

When a person has been born again by the power of Jesus and by the power of the Holy Spirit, we don't need to make these things so complicated and leaving so many Christians in constant fear and second guessing that maybe I have this problem, maybe I have that problem.

Look at what the apostles have commanded us to do and that is to put down the lust of the flesh and walk in the fruit of the Holy Spirit. And we don't see Paul saying, but 99.5% of you before you're going to be able to do that, you're gonna have to go through deep demonic deliverance first.

If you don't do that, you won't be successful. You never, ever find that in the epistles. You find the whole of the Bible, John, both the Old Testament and the New Testament, telling us to take control of our own life and stop blaming everything on demons.

And that's where I would rather leave people today. And the only thing that I would leave you with is a question, why do the more heavy set deliverance ministers not cast out the demon of gluttony or the more wealthy ones passed cast out the demon of greed?

You don't find that in these deliverance ministries. And I would encourage everyone look up a picture of when, orally, the first man we began talking about. The dude was enormous. And with that, I'm going to go hit the treadmill so people don't talk about me.

So if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at www.William-branam.org. For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

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