Deliverance Ministry, Discernment, and Common Sense

Music Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Brannum Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Brannum Historical Research at www.William-brannum.org and with me I have my co-host and friend, Franny Nance, a former member of Charismania. Franny, it's good to be back and to talk about my allergies.

My allergies are flowing right now. You can hear it in my voice. And there was a time and a place in this world when I would have thought the demons are out to get me.

Yes, because my allergies are attacking my body, the demons are grabbing me. And I never would have really stopped and thought, well wait a minute, the pollen counts high. All of the different things that you can naturally look at.

And anyway, we both just happen to read the same article today about all of the Charismatics who were just like I was at one time thinking, every demon is out to get us. We're in a spiritual battle, this is spiritual warfare. I'm in God's army.

And so I thought it would be good to talk about that today. Yes, so funny this morning I pulled it up. It's in the Atlantic and it's called the demons of Maryville. A growing number of Charismatic Christians see themselves as waging a spiritual battle against the forces of Satan.

Sometimes those forces are right across the street. And so as I was reading it, I'm just scrolling through and that's just thinking like this is, you know, again, I don't know about the author or something.

And the Atlantic has had some pretty good pieces about the NAR and the Charismatic Movement. And it is written, I assume, by an outsider, but people who have researched. And so us being insiders, I just want to say like we were insiders.

You know, I was in there and truly believed when raised from birth that we were in a spiritual battle in that, you know, you are waging a war. And then in the Bible, you know, there's always these focus on that.

But reading the articles, it's interesting. So it was like, okay, the pastor of this church, he and his wife went to Ranny Clark School Global Awakening, where they got their training. And so I'm like, of course, here it is.

There's the thread, the through line. And even in the article, which is one book, I'm not sure if we've talked about, which is sort of like one of the... Bibles if you want to say of deliverance is the pigs in the parlor book. I can't remember who wrote it, but That's kind of like the manual that people refer to and that book was also referred to in the article But it just had me thinking as I'm reading it. It's

If you remove yourself from it, it is absolutely bizarre I was almost laughing because the you know woman who had the bookstore across the street that this church decided that they were at A spiritual war with was like what is the demon of Lillith? You know They had all these and then if you read the article they talk about like well It's this spiritual principality and it's a Norse god that came from this and then we need to have a prayer walk and pray against that and so If you read it, it's kind of like

Where in the Bible does it? I who are these demons that they have these names and these principalities and that's That is where I grew up or grew up in that that they're Were these people that had special knowledge?

You know like oh my gosh God spoke to me in a dream and There's this principality demonic force that is you know keeping you in bondage and it's this is the name and we need to declare war and pray against it and and That is one of the most unhealthy ways to live and I would say that because one being raised in it You know growing up everything had a spiritual element to it You know my little sister loved horseback riding and loved horses and she had a necklace that had a horseshoe charm on it

That was evil, you know she tripped up the stairs and it was like well You're wearing that necklace. We need to throw it away destroy it

There there was always some portal and so if you live in that environment where it's like a constant You have to constantly be on edge that Anything you touch anywhere you turn that there is An open door to the devil to have access to your life It makes you paranoid It's like and it does attract other mentally unwell people In sheer life and like I said my parents had befriended a woman that she since passed away But I believe really had suffered from I think she had borderline personality disorder again. I'm not doctor Deep deep trauma from growing up in role or two in concentration camps that was never dealt with and so just

Sort of lived in a diluted world and these this charismatic deliverance ministry that movement and amplifies that. It gives people looking for meaning or purpose. You know, you could be a nobody and all of a sudden, like, oh, look at you, you have purpose because you sensed the demon of Lilith and now you guys are waging a campaign against it in a war.

But again, I'll pause after this. But what I noticed growing up in it and then being at IHOP and then just, it was constant, like, a war. I was waging war in high school.

You know, it was after Columbine. It was like, look at the evil forces that are trying to destroy this righteous nation, America, and kill the youth. You know, we need to be battling for the souls.

And so I was a junior in high school. And at the time, I was at boarding school, a long story, but. And I had decided, you know, I had been influenced by Luingle, Bob Weiner, who ended up interning for.

And it was, you know, what happened in Columbine and, you know, the devils after the youth were the chosen generation that's going to usher in the second coming. And so I mean, I look back on that and I didn't have a lot of friends there because I'm sure they thought I was crazy because I was always like, I'm so very, I would anoint doors with oil.

I was like, always trying to start a Bible study. I would prayer walk the school. You know, I was determined that I'm going to bring revival to this school and, you know, by the end of my junior year, I was exhausted.

People thought I was weird. But in this environment too, the more people think you're weird, that's, it's almost like that affirms like, oh, I'm on the right path because people think I'm weird. And like, that's just the devil trying to attack me, to discourage me.

And so it's just a feedback loop that kind of keeps you in it. But the thing I'll end on was, so it's high school, that intensity, college, luckily I kind of dial it back some because I had some like nice Christian friends and I was sort of out of my home environment where it gave me a minute to sort of be like, hmm, something's not right.

And this whole time I am thinking, because we're in church reading the Bible and I'm like, didn't Jesus conquer this? Like, why are we still fighting this? But by the time I went to IHOP and then finished IHOP, I was exhausted.

Like, I didn't know I was like, there's something wrong with me, but I was burnt out. And that is what these ministries are, these deliverance, these focus on this intensity of a spiritual battle.

I truly believe what it does to people, it's just like a cult, like where it wears you down and wears you out. I've mentioned this in passing before and I'll probably mention again, but I want to describe how much this movement and its spiritual warfare.

Doctrines have taken the church backwards in time to the primitive to the I don't even know how to say this in a non-insulting way But I'll just say we've gone backwards. I'll leave it at that and you can let your mind wonder The example I gave before was leprosy leprosy we know from The advances in medical science it is a bacteria and when you remove the bacteria you remove the leprosy Whenever you kill off the bacteria it may have attacked your nerves your skin your The lining of your nose. There's there's different places that attacks

But we know the bacteria causes it and we know that in the southern states it's a little bit higher transmission rate because of I was reading that I didn't even know this until today. I was reading armadillos is one of the main carriers of this Down in the south, which is kind of funny But it spreads from human to human through a lot of skin contact So it's not like you're standing here and a demon can get out and transfer to another person You literally have to hug them and you have to start touching them because it's bacteria the bacteria has to spread from you to the next person

Well in the Bible times the bacteria Was unknown the they did not realize what cause leprosy They just Deemed it a a evil spirit the evil spirit has come and the priests would pray over the person who was the leprosy and leprosy was You know widespread back in the ancient world because they were very unclean bacteria grew In many different places and they didn't really know what it was or understand it But they did pray for it Here's the difference between now and before a cares media went wild And I guess transferring back in time to what cares medics are today

God honored the prayers of the people who prayed for leprosy knowing that you know gods all knowing he had to have known it was a bacteria He doesn't care how you pray about the leprosy you prayed pray the prayer faith and you got healed well In today's world Yes, you can still pray but we can also give you some antibiotics and you can kill this thing off. It's pretty simple In the days of John Alexander Dowey whenever This the prototype for the faith healing movement that would come He started saying the medical sciences of the devil these are truly demons. We're spite we're fighting the spiritual battle

And come to my faith healing and give me your money And don't give your doctors the money because I'll give you the better healing the the godly healing and then people still continue to die I don't know if there's a number of how many people had leprosy, but it is a real thing It's a it's a bacteria that if you read the Bible it very clearly says this is a demon take it a step further If you read Leviticus 14 I think it is. It talks about when your house has leprosy, and literally it's talking about mold,

but it talks about when the infection comes into the rock, you call the priests, and the priest will pray over it. Now, nobody in today's right mind, even the people in the spiritual warfare, would look at mold in their house and not go get some bleach or call some professionals to clean it out. They would not call the preacher to come to the deliverance ministry, hey, come deliver my house from leprosy. But it's because they have taken things so far out of context that they don't allow the growth of human knowledge. And by doing this, you're actually

limiting God's power to heal you. God has, if you consider God all knowing and omnipresent, omnipotent, eternal, as people progress through time and their knowledge increases, you have to believe that if God is in control, He's also swaying the direction in which the medical science can go to help people. So we live much healthier lives than they did back then, and leprosy is almost unheard of in this today's world. But you hear things like this, they'll take a passage out of context and say, look here, this says that this is a demon, so therefore it must be a demon today.

And yes, that sounds good. Yes, people can believe and they can shout a man, but they're not going to tell you that, well, also if you have mold in your house, that's a demon. And we need to gather the church around your house and condemn the demon of mold that's in your house. Exactly. I think too, people want a quick fix. And maybe it makes people feel better because they're spiritualizing it.

But I just, in my experience, and I think in the natural world, and I would say this is how even you believe God created the world. There isn't a quick fix, and it's like you could even read the Bible, you know, I was reading the Bible project, someone sent me a video about ecclesiasties.

And it was just really interesting, because it's like, you know, there is nothing new in the sense, you know, and this is a biblical book, like, you know, it's in the Bible. So there is, it's not new.

You know, life is, it's not, I'm not trying to be depressing, but I guess my point is that a lot of these spiritual gurus and deliverance ministers, all of them, they offer you an easy out or like a quick fix. It's like, oh, you're addicted. Like, well, we just need to cast out the demon. And I'm like, no, like, that doesn't, it doesn't work like that. I mean, I have heard stories of people that were like, well, I was prayed for, and then I never touched alcohol again or whatever. I'm great.

Like, I'm, praise God, you know, but that's not reality for everybody. And so I think when you try to present it like that, then people start to think, well, what's wrong with me? Like, I've been prayed four million times. And so then it, you know, you try to find, well, maybe it's another demon or, you know, maybe there's a generational curse in your background. And so we need to pray against that. And so you waste your time and energy and exhaust yourself constantly trying to identify the source of your issue. When honestly, sometimes some, some ailments or mental illnesses or whatever don't have an answer. Like,

people die. It's like it, unfortunately, people suffer. But also, many people have overcome addiction or other illnesses or whatever it might be by accepting reality. And looking at the tools that you could say God has given us or the other smart people that God has given them a brain and helped develop whatever steps it might be in order to find healing and work through that or get free from whatever addiction it is that you might have. And that takes boring work that doesn't give you that dopamine hit if I'm making sense. Because at one point in this

article, it talks about the couple that started this church. This is referring to one of the pastors of the church in the Atlantic article. So she began gathering what she called spiritual intelligence. She kept track of what demons had been identified during deliverances at the well church. As she drove around the area, she told me she made note of Masonic lodges, tarot card readers and anything else that made her feel uneasy. She paid attention to her dreams. But it's just sort of that like it's giving giving people a purpose or a mission. And it's not reality. It's not

real. And sometimes life is boring. And sometimes we have to accept that. And I think that people in the charismatic movement don't want to accept that. And it's the same if you step outside of the church itself and you just look at like political movements or I don't know. Other causes that people kind of like pick up and obsess over whatever it might be. It's kind of like that's it's the same thing. It's like it's not real. Like you're, you know, like you're not going to like fix this, you know, overnight or whatever. But I think some people want that meaning or that purpose. There's

something wrong with it per se. But honestly, it can lead into pretty unhealthy behavior that then keeps people stuck in a feedback loop and keeps them in their distress or mental illness or whatever it is. And then sometimes it makes it worse. But I'm just, you know, it also keeps the money machine going. The power machine. I'm sure these Again, I don't know these pastors, but I'm sure they feel very special and like that they are God's chosen and you know, they honestly made themselves, anointed themselves saying that God told them or whatever. And you know, that's been my opinion unhealthy as well. It's like you're,

you know, it's not difficult either. It's like God doesn't need you. I'm glad you brought up addiction. So I've got in the back room, I've got a handbook by Randy Clark talking about all of the wonderful ways that you can deliver demons out of people, deliver people from demons. And it's got everything from delivering you from the sin of alcohol or addiction to hiccups. And I'm just going to pause and say, if you believe that hiccups is a demon, you probably need to go see a therapist and understand the problems that you have. But the

sin of drunkenness is a sin that's mentioned in the Bible. But the addiction to alcohol and liquor isn't really mentioned in the Bible. Because again, back in the ancient world, they really didn't understand what even addiction was. So you'll find people who were gluttonous, who were wine bibbers, etc. But what's really interesting is you don't find anybody who is being delivered of the demon of addiction. And you don't find any of the apostles or disciples casting out the demon of addiction. But you do find it in the modern stage acts of deliverance ministry. And so

one of the things that I've learned to do is clearly separate the two. You have deliverance that's in the Bible and usually it's deliverance from sin. It's not intended to be used in the way that they do. And then you have stage deliverance, which is this thing that is ongoing and it is theatrical. When Jesus cast out a demon, it was instantly gone. People were instantly cured.

There wasn't this go home and believe or it might come back on you or go go in faith believing and confess it. Because if you don't confess it, you're still going to have the demon that's infected you. Jesus didn't say any of this. He said go home, be healed. You're healed. Boom. And it was done. But the theatrical version loves things like addiction because it is an ongoing suffering. And there are people who overcome. Usually they overcome because they have been delivered and they have gone through a series of steps that is found to be working for people who

have any sort of addiction similar to theirs, five step program, etc. You also find people who don't engage in the five step programs or any of the other therapies who just solely name it and claim it. And then it continues and continues because they haven't really done the work to help deliver themselves from addiction. And that's really one of the key things. They want you to have something that is ongoing theatrical that hooks the audience. See this person, they've been delivered, but they're still struggling. Watch them. Watch them. So everybody's got their attention on them. And then if they ever

do get over it, they're an overcomer, they become the part of the stage show, it's really weird how all of that works. But in the end, it's like this, they don't have the biblical version of deliverance and they're really grasping extra to say things or demons that aren't.

You cannot find anywhere in the Bible somebody that's cured of the demon of hiccups. I don't even know if hiccups is mentioned in the Bible, I don't think it is, but that's the level of weirdness that this goes because, again, I'm trying not to be insulting, but it is crossed over to an edge that is peering very closely to insanity.

I think I'll say it like that carefully. Yeah, no, I would 100% agree with that and it's interesting about the addiction piece too, what I've seen, someone very close to me had a really awful, like, you know, very severe eating disorder that was consuming them and they became a Christian and were, you know, God delivered, they say, you know, they didn't go to therapy or whatever program they needed to go to.

This person probably should have been an impatient, just without severe eating disorder was. Well, God delivered me, you know, I don't binge and purge anymore, but my argument would be, okay, you're not doing that behavior.

But in my opinion, this person still had an eating disorder because there was that obsession still, it was transferred then to health or, and when I say obsession, like, I mean, obsession level of like, hmm, you know, what, you know, nutritional supplement, do I need to take now?

And it was thousands of dollars on nutritional supplements. And then that same, because the eating disorder or the addiction itself, it's usually, it's a manifestation of, you know, again, not a therapist, but just after, whatever complex trauma or whatever it is, you know, it could, you know, some people say it's biological or whatever.

But, you know, like, you're not just delivered, it's still lingers. Like, if you talk to someone who is a recovering alcoholic, you know, they would say, you know, again, other people I know who they're recovered from alcohol, they don't drink anymore, but they talk about how they need to be either be in a program or something, but always being aware of it, not being torn, but just being aware of their proclivities and their weaknesses, because again, that can transfer.

There is that, you know, where, if they're not aware, it's to something else. So it's, you know, well, now, you know, I'm addicted to be a foreigner. I don't know. I'm just trying, I'm thinking through like what I've seen where people claim, you know, I've been delivered from this addiction, it's transferred to something else.

And I would argue too, even the person in my life that I know that was delivered from this eating disorder will, it... then was transferred into nutrition, but also the obsession with like the spiritual warfare charismatic where it was like the dopamine hit of like, you know, in an eating disorder of the binge or the purge or whatever it is. Now I'm I'm feeling low and depressed. Well now I need to go to this other speaker. I need to buy this other book about, you know, this particular principality that's influencing this or I'm, you know, focusing that attention on another

thing that keeps them stuck in some sort of addictive cycle versus when you are, you know, working through healing and getting, you know, out of an addiction a lot of times it is sitting with that discomfort, the emotional discomfort, you know, working through it and not using something in order to, you know, calm that uncomfortable feeling. It's it's sitting in those emotions and moving through it and, you know, this the charismatic deliverance ministry they it's destructive and that it keeps people trapped and stuck in those cycles. And I think it's I think it's evil.

Like I've I've really come to that conclusion where, you know, the people at the top who run these ministries, you know, no one people don't want to hear that because they're they profess Christ, you know, they pray they say they read the Bible and that they love God and they love people.

But you don't get that high up and stay that long in these types of ministries and take people's money, you know, and keep that power without having some awareness of what of what you're doing.

At some point you do need to step back and, you know, ask yourself a question like, is this helping or hurting people? And a lot of times these people have spent decades, you know, they've built their lives ministries, person, hotel, whatever. And it's a great cost that they would have to that they would lose if they really looked at the impact of their of their ministry and what it's doing.

It's called integrity as an accountability. And they don't want to do that. So they keep themselves in the delusion. It's my opinion. They keep themselves in that delusion as well. But I truly believe that those people that are high up and Bethel global awakenings like they know what they're doing.

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On behalf of William Brannum Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support. So you went from addiction to food, and I'm going to just address the elephant in the room that nobody talks about, and you can watch the comment feeds go angry at me.

But one of the problems that I see with the whole movement and the way that they have done this, you don't find the things that they're talking about in the Bible specifically, but they will twist words and phrases to make it sound like it.

So drugs, for example, you're not going to find drugs spoken about much in the Bible, because it wasn't as widespread today. You do find liquor, alcohol, spoken about, but usually it's just the drunkenness of it.

They were drinking wine because the water was in pure, and Paul said, drink a little wine for your stomach. People were drinking alcohol and intoxicating liquor, but there were some who were abusing it, and the abuse of the liquor was sin.

And so they don't really say you have a demon. They say, literally, you have taken too much of this stuff, stop doing this. That's all it really took. Well, the interesting part is if you do the math on the percentages, and I don't have these numbers, somebody else can run them for me, when you don't apply that to alcohol, but you instead apply it to food, it's the same issue.

There are people who are just eating way too much, and there is the sin of gluttony. People were just getting large for no reason other than they like to entertain their stomach. And I know in today's world that's taboo, you're not supposed to talk about people's size, but I'm separating two things here.

There are people who just simply eat because they want to eat, and they grow, and they grow. And there are people who have metabolism problems, issues, thyroid issues, et cetera, and they can't help it.

I'm not talking about those people. I'm talking the ones who over-indulge. Many of the preachers, and I don't, again, I don't have the math on this. You can do the statistics, but many of the preachers who preach this are fairly large.

And I'm just going to say it, I know some of these people. And I know that it's not a thyroid issue because I have seen their plates at the buffets. And in fact, I think I myself entered into this sin of gluttony because I was watching how they ate, and I modeled my eating after what they did.

So I too sinned now. Did anybody come up to the Deliverance Minister and said, Hey, you have a demon. Look at the size of your plate, man. You are over indulging. It is the same thing.

It's just two different substances. One is drugs and alcohol, one is food, but the sin, mission and the by-boy is the same. And again, I know I'll get hate mail, put it in the comment feed, it's fine, I'll take it.

But the issue is the same and they don't treat the gluttony as a demon because they themselves usually are the ones doing it. Yeah, 100%. And I would say that with greed too, and money.

And you know, your status, it's the same thing. And they can live, I've seen it, they can live these double lives and they can spiritualize what they like. You know, it's like, well, you know, well, sure, I'm probably eating a little too much, but you know, we're gathering together, the brethren and where the Lord is and we're, you know, ministering to people and so I'll do better next time.

Or there's always that, or the youth minister that I interned for, Bob Liner, he was like a big prosperity gospel person and you know, God wants us to be wealthy. God wants us to, you know, whatever.

And so, you know, I got this Armani suit, got a deal, or I don't know, I'm kind of going off on a tangent. But just when you said that about food, I think it's the same thing with greed, like with money as well.

And I'm not condemning anyone that has money or people that, you know, I like nice things too. You know, I work. But it's, yeah, there's that where like certain things are sin or a demon, but then the things that they like are not simple and it's not a demon or whatever.

And yeah, no, I just, you sang about food sort of making me think about that. And I guess I just keep drawing people, want to draw people's attention too because it's just, it's so hard to believe.

It is the system that is broken that keeps producing these people. And it is hard for people to wrap their minds around that someone would take the Bible, proclaim Jesus and do destructive things like this.

But you have to be able to step back and look at the system as a whole and the people at the top and really question, where do they get their authority? Why are they still in power?

And I'm seeing, you know, these contradictory behaviors and have been in this movement long enough and close to the high ups long enough to know something's not right. That's why I've really enjoyed your podcast.

with Pia, you know, when she talks about that, like the high ups and seeing kind of behind the scenes and yeah, I'm not trying to sound like conspiratorial or paranoid or whatever, but I just think that it's okay to ask questions and use your brain and critical thinking and like, gosh, I'm seeing this, this isn't, doesn't feel right.

And a lot of times those people that do ask questions are labeled demonic or you have a demon. It's like you're oppressed by a demon. You have a demon of doubt. And I remember that as a kid being, you know, tormented and like terrified that I was going to burn in hell or do something that was doubtful or would grieve the Holy Spirit.

So deeply, you know, that the devil would enter me and then there'd be no hope. There's very much that, like you have to keep up this intensity in this movement, you know. And that's why I think with the intensity of like this, we're in a spiritual battle.

It keeps people trapped. You stay out of fear or it makes you feel special because it's like, oh, look at me, I'm special. I'm in a spiritual battle. I have special knowledge. You know, I know what most people don't know and I'm spending my days, you know, whether it's at IHOP KC praying for, you know, Israel or marching around and casting out demons and per-walking people's neighborhoods and, you know, I was just sort of thinking to, you know, my, I have three kids and I'm not tuning my own horn or saying I'm great or whatever.

I'm just saying they have a very different upbringing than I had. There is like zero concept of like, you know, a demon around every corner or being, you know, afraid to like touch something goes somewhere that I may have brought the devil into the house that is now tormenting my parents or, you know, what not, there's just not that concept.

We, you know, we go to church like, obviously, we, you know, want them to read the Bible but also want them to be thinkers. What you and Pia have been good at pointing out are the double standards.

Yes. Thank you, double standards. That is the word. In the deliverance ministries, those run really high people because they have manipulated people to turn off the critical thinking. These deliverance ministers can just have as many double standards as they like and nobody catches it.

But one of the thing, you know, I mentioned the gluttony, but there are many other sins mentioned in the Bible pride is one of the sins. And you almost can't find a deliverance minister that's not filled with pride.

But what they like to do is the sins that they can point at the audience, they'll point at those and say, those are demons. People who have anxiety, you have a spirit of fear.

People who are human and their hormones are raging like all, especially the, you know, in ages 20 years, years old, you have a spirit of lust on you. And it's just simply their hormones are raging because of their age.

Person with depression, you have the spirit of heaviness, I think they call it. There's different ones. But flip that around. If they would just critically think in the audience and say, well, wait a minute.

This leader is being really rude and harsh, but he's not calling that a demon. He's bold. They'll use different prideful terms, I guess you'd say. People, a person who's controlling, who is really manipulative and controlling, let's say he's just protective.

We're under the spiritual covering. And you mentioned the greed. Well, in the prosperity gospel, that's just simply, well, he's walking in prosperity. Look at this guy. He's doing God's will and God is rewarding him.

But you can't really have it both ways. You either accept that everything that is mentioned as a sin in the Bible is a demon, or it's not. You can't just divide and say, well, the sins that I have as the deliverance minister, those aren't demons, but you have the demons, right?

My favorite one is Jezebel. You find all of these deliverance ministers saying this person has a Jezebel spirit. It's usually against women in the Pentecostal circles. They'll talk about the women because of the way that they dress, et cetera.

Usually it's critics. And if you're a critic, you have a Jezebel spirit. Basically, anything that I want to insult you with, I'll say, that's a Jezebel spirit. But think about the reverse of that.

Think of the Ahab spirit, the guy who's passive. You don't find too many people with the Ahab spirit. You're too passive. You're allowing things to come in that should not come in. And honestly, if they had have just done that part of it, excluding everything else, you're too passive.

You're letting evil and idolatry come into the religion. It might have warded off most of this that we see today. Yes, you're seeing that. I think the word Jezebel is actually mentioned in the Atlantic article that I'm talking about, the Jezebel spirit.

And it's really funny to say it's spirit of Ahab because I was going to say in circles, I grew up in that you have a spirit of Ahab was used as an insult, like, you have a spirit of Ahab because you let in the spirit of Jezebel.

And so it's like this whole, it's just circular. But yeah, everything was a demon. It was like, be on guard that if someone's lustful

or lusting after you, or if you have a lustful thought, I remember growing up, it was like, if you have a lustful thought, it's you know, you either have a demon of lust or maybe you're in an environment where it's lust where there's a demon of lust and you need to get out or someone near you has a lustful spirit and you are picking up on discerning that.

Like that's what is also really destructive too is that quote unquote discernment that people have, you know, like there's a level of like having intuition. and you know, or kind of like, uh, wisdom.

But when people get into like, well, I'm discerning this and like you can discern anything you want on anybody. And a lot of times what I have seen and I've seen this in myself too, sometimes you are discerning something and you're projecting something onto someone else.

It might be a trauma that you've suffered in your life or you know, I, something that I've worked through, I'm 44, I'm still working through it, but what I've noticed is, you know, is very hyper-vigilant growing up, you know, on edge.

And I can't, I can read a room. I can read a part, you know, and I'm, and then in order to, it's a learn, I'm mechanized, I've learned in order to protect myself, I will, you know, adjust to the mood, the atmosphere of the room.

At the time, like I, you know, in the, when I was in the, the movement, I would be like, I'm discerning this, you know, spirit or whatever, okay. Now in my 40s, something I've noticed is that, what I've worked through in therapy too, is that hyper-vigilance that I developed in childhood that helped get me to my adulthood, that did serve me was a helpful tool.

It's now not helping me anymore in my life, you know, it's getting, you know, not getting me in trouble, but it's like, it's hindering me. You know, I'm so hyper-vigilant in certain situations where it's just gets in my way at work, or I'm reading into a situation that's not really what it is.

And so I'm, it's been interesting to me, I've been having to kind of undo and relearn in that area of my life. And so looking now at the, you know, charismatic, the spiritual warfare, that discernment is destructive.

And it has, like, that got me in trouble a lot as a kid. Like, well, I'm discerning this on you, and I'm thinking, I, no, I, you know, I just like disagreed with you.

And it's like, no, I'm discerning that you hate, you have as like a hatred of God, you know, because you are talking back to your mother. And it's just like, and I think growing up in that, it did develop something in me where that hyper-vigilance and like on edge that I'm going to get accused of something that I haven't done, but someone who is quote, spiritual that is anointed has discerned this on me.

And they've decided that I have this. And so, you know, you know, I need to watch my back or being how I am, like, I was raised, you know, I'm a good girl, I'm a people pleaser.

You know, I want to please and make it. So I'm like, oh, I guess I have it. I guess I, I've opened the door. Gosh, Lord, forgive me, you know, I don't, I don't want to grieve the Holy Spirit.

And I'm so sorry, I brought this evil spirit into the house. And, you know, looking back on that and just thinking that's insane. Like, and that's unfair to do to a person. It's like when you, as something else I've learned too, it's like when you have a good gut reaction or an emotional reaction to something, like something like, oh, that's wrong or but probably the thing you need to do is let me think through this why, why am I having this emotional reaction to that and a lot in these movements they don't have that.

It's like, well, I've been trained, you know, I've been told, like, this is discernment and I'm sensing, you know, the devil and it keeps those people trapped and it's really, it's crazy. It is insanity inducing. It's not the real world and, you know, I'll say this one thing, my parents, I was talking to them and they, she told me, they said they started going to a normal church, normal. And she, it's been interesting talking to them because it's a quote, normal boring church, but she's like, gosh, you've had the most wonderful time getting to know

wonderful people in our community and, you know, gosh, we wasted so many years at this other, it's a really crazy church that they were at, which was very, you know, intense and charismatic and you know, we felt so isolated and now and I was just like, yeah, sometimes like boring and stable, like that's the healthy and you, you know, if you get to, you live your life, like you, you can enjoy your life, like you can operate in this world, you don't need to be in constant fear.

Without even knowing it, you have built me up to the main point I was trying to build up to.

When you're in these deliverance ministries, you often throw around this term discernment. And it means nothing like the Bible talks about, not even remotely close to it, but they will use it and there's different ways they'll use it, discernment. The favorite one during the healing of rivals was I can, I can discern the names and addresses that you wrote on your card when you put your prayer card in the basket. Well, think about how discernment works, discernment, like you just said, in many cases, they're labeling common sense discernment. And it's really, that's probably the best example because if you, if you try to categorize the two, common sense is simply saying,

did this thing really happen? And discernment is, did this thing happen because of God? Those are the, those are the two differences and that's the biblical difference. But they have taken it where they have domed everything down to this elementary level where even just, even common sense is kind of taboo in the movement. You're not allowed to have common sense because you can't think for yourself and always go back to the example of two children. Two children, one child says something, the other child is critically thinking and says, I don't believe you show me. Well, what he just

did was doubting, but that was the first, step of common sense. The first step of critical thinking is to doubt. That's what your mind literally has to do, but yet doubt is unbelief. And what, I would say, the most brilliant thing that Brandham did as a con artist in the revivals was he convinced the masses, and I'm talking about the audience, the ministers, the evangelists, the discernment ministers. He taught them all that unbelief itself was sin. So the child who sits there and says, no, show me first. I don't believe you. Well, that child was sinning according to that logic, but yet that's the first step of

common sense. And so if you have common sense to take that first step, you must doubt. And if you doubt your sinning, so you have a demon in this type of ministry, what it has done is it has reversed the people's way of thinking to such an extent that they can't live in the real world where everybody else lives. And they get around somebody who has common sense, who is thinking logically, and they're like, oh, you must have the spirit of discernment. I've been told this, and I'm just using common sense in the podcast. I don't have any gift or spirit, but people have

said, John, you have the spirit of discernment. And my response is, well, do you really understand what the spirit of discernment actually is? Yeah, I do think that discernment, that word is weaponized. It's interesting. You say unbelief. I mean, that really is one of the roots of how these people maintain control and how people stay trapped. Like, you know, at youth minister, I work for Bob Weiner, you know, would always talk about like the sin of unbelief. And, you know, that's what holds you back. And, you know, look at me, grace, grace. I, you know, I just have so much

favor and I believe in God's grace and whatever that I just got upgraded to first class. I got this deal on this $3,000 or a Monty suit. I got, you know, and so then I'm like, what's wrong with me?

You know, I didn't get upgraded to first class. I must have, I must have unbelief. You know, it's, that's what it comes down to. It's like, I guess I have a spirit of unbelief. I must have too much doubt. There must be a demonic oppression. This person must have a demon like the flight pretendin' or ever because they didn't want to upgrade me. It's spiritual warfare. You, you can make everything, you know, either a sin or a demon or or something other than just like I'm just living by my life. I'm not entitled to first class for free. You know, I was, um, but,

you know, and that, I would say that was like that youth minister's personality. You know, he was a big spender and wanted, you know, enjoyed getting deals and, you know, in, in another life, I think he wouldn't have been a youth minister. He would have been like a really good salesman.

I mean, he really, like, that guy could bring in a love offering like no other. And yeah, you know, I would say like his character behind the scenes, who's a big jerk, like it's not nice, like very unkind.

And that was kind of my first, I was 19. And I was his only intern, he could not even remember my name, he kept calling me intern. And so, and I remember I was just so flummoxed by it because I, in high school, I'd go to all his youth rallies with Luingle and all that.

And I was like, this man is so anointed. And I was just like, gosh, his character does not line up with what you would think a Christian would. And he was on, he's on the board at Morningstar and like all these other people.

And so I was like, gosh, he's good friends with Rick Joyner. Like don't these people speak into his life? Like maybe, and you know, the longer you're in it and the more you see, it's like birds of a feather.

Going back to the double standards, this is the one that angers me. And I've, I've had a few podcasts where I turn red in the face and I feel flushing as I'm talking now.

But the mental health issues and the way that they target people who have mental health issues is the worst thing that they can possibly do. And here's where it gets really interesting as a double standard.

They will point out somebody who has a mental health issue and they'll say, you have a demon on you. And rather than let them go to a therapist, many, and many of the churches that are practicing this, they'll say the therapist have a demon.

Because once you go there, you'll come out of our flock. Not realizing that there's, there's a high level of crazy here. That's why the therapist is probably recommending that something happened, right? You need a change in your life.

But there are different types of mental health disorders and different types of mental health issues. Some of which might just simply be burnout. Somebody who's in the crowd may just be totally burned out, but they have a demon on them.

And you can't go to the therapist because that therapist will give you a bigger demon, a worse demon. You need to stay under our anointing, under our spiritual covering, and get further burnt out.

So this person just gets sicker and sicker in their mind. But take the reverse of that. Take a minister who is having ministry burnout. It's the same exact thing. He has the same exact mental health disorder, but that's glorified.

Person who has that, well, that spiritual warfare, he's fought the spiritual battle and he's weary from the battle. That's usually how they say it. Well, the person who's weary from the battle and the congregation has the demon.

The deliverance minister who's weary from the battle is glorified. Yeah, or the person in the congregation has a demon and they need deliverance and they need to come these conferences and read these books.

But the minister is being spiritually attacked because he's so anointed or she, whatever. So anointed that the devil is trying to take them out. And so we need to doubly pray for them or whatever it is.

Like give them more money, more time to rest or something like that. I think about that with Todd Bentley. And I'm not trying to feel sorry for him. Just saying he kind of fits that stereotype.

In a sense, I don't know like his background and it's like extreme, becomes a Christian, has whatever manifestations or some sort of charism charisma that the leaders elevate him. That's kind of what happens.

It's like they see a person that has some kind of genus igua or something where it attracts, and it's like we can, whether they're consciously thinking and they're subconsciously, we can elevate this person and then whatever, make money off of them or we can elevate them, it keeps the movement going.

But what happens is like you're just saying it's another broken person that should not be in a position of leadership at all period that needs their own level of healing, but they use that person, lift them up, they go on these like, I tender in like all over the world and hours preaching and praying and then they are burnt out and drained and then they have a fall, whatever it might be, Todd Bentley, the sexually harassing people or whatnot.

And then that person goes through another shame spot. It's like, oh, this person sinned and they fell and now, well, we need to just restore them because it's almost like the machine, the system itself is like, great, this moneymaker's down or this person that is keeping this movement going, like we need to restore them back or whatever.

But it's more, they're more concerned about the move of God or the work of the ministry and not the person. Like it's not like, you know what, this person came out of this like really traumatic or whatever abusive background, drug addiction, I don't know, probably shouldn't be, you know, elevating this person immediately on a platform like that's not good for them.

Like they need to, you know, heal, they need to live a normal life, they need to, you know, whatever. And then they're also by doing that or opening the door for other people to receive abuse at the hands of this person or, you know, like, well, I had this crazy, you know, experience or whatever.

So I need to be launched into full-time ministry and then it's just like a cycle of people being burned out, falling and now we need to restore this person. I don't, I just, I think it's, it's pretty awful like when you think about it because it's like, you know, Todd Bentley was quote unquote, you know, restored and then had, you know, another quote, fall again.

And it's just like, my God, like let this person go. Like they need, they need probably inpatient therapy or whatever it is and to not, like you're saying, like not being this movement, but that's also what, like with the therapist piece two and I sometimes even see this outside the church where it's like, but it...

Growing up, it was like, well, a therapist or a counselor, like, they will get into your mind and they will, you know, control you. And that is they will, you will turn away from God, they'll implant things into your brain that will, you know, make you hate your parents or whatever it is.

And it's so it leaves you terrified to go to anything outside of the church. And that's like what these, the deliverance, the charismatic or whatever, it's just like, it's like, we'll try this next program.

Well, now I need to go to our deliverance school. Once you read this book, instead of like, we can't help you, like, because also if they tell you that we can't help you, then their ministry is illegitimate and then they don't have a platform anymore.

So like you were saying, they just have to keep people trapped by like, well, this is the next step. Well, now this prints well. Look, you're so anointed that this principality is now coming against you.

So we're all gonna have to, you know, really pray against this or or what not. So as a person who has caught up in the deliverance ministry like myself, but you were in a more modern version, what advice would you have for people who are stuck in that?

Start asking yourself questions. Like, where am I seeing things in my life or in these ministries that have contradicted? I think there's a level of like, where, you know, I was like, I know it all.

Like, I have read the books. I have been to the conferences and I am still, I feel exhausted. I'm still tormented. I don't know what to do, you know, with my life. This is after college, you know, I don't have, quote unquote, my purpose.

Like, and I am tired of fighting whatever this spiritual war is. And at the older I got, the more the people in that movement, they don't value you. You know, they want the young people, they, you want this intensity.

And I think, too, it's like over time, you're kind of like, what they said is contradicting itself. Like, this person isn't a spirit-filled Christian. Like, that's how I'd say, I'll look at other people who I'm like, well, gosh, this person isn't a quote unquote spirit-filled Christian.

They're just a normal person and they do not have the same mental struggles as me. And I don't want to keep thinking that it's because I'm so anointed, like, that the devil is just attacking me.

That feels exhausting, too. Like, there comes a time where it's like, I'm so tired and this is not working. And I need to be brave enough and willing to step back and try something different.

And honestly, it's like finding people who have been in this situation. It's reading books, like books, like there's a really good book by a guy named Wade Mullin. Something's not right, or I think that's the name of the book.

It's excellent. And he's very gentle and loving. thing, but it starts to peel back, like, you know, if you're feeling something might not be right, it's not, you're not a bad person, like follow that threat, like I think it's okay and it's safe to fall. And I want to say to what helped me as well, um, I was, you know, listen to podcasts like navigating narcissism or learning about covert narcissism or covert Christian narcissism, spiritual abuse. But the one person that actually kind of helped me was Steve Hassan with, uh, you know, combating cult mind control. And the thing that attracted

me to him was that he was in a religious cult, came out of it. It's now like a psychologist and helps people come out of cults, but he still maintains his religious faith. He's Jewish.

And I think for me, I was like, okay, because it is scary because you're like, well, everyone who's quote unquote deconstructing is not a Christian, you know, they like hate God. There's no religion. And I'm like, I don't, you know, like I was scary. I was like, I don't want that, um, you know, willing to like entertain that thought, but that feels sad to me. And so for me, for him, I'm like, this here's an intelligent person that went through this that came out and yet still maintains a faith in God. And so for me, I kind of anchored

in that. And so I would look for, you know, people's experiences or stories that were similar to mine that, yeah, seemed stable. I think I looked for that too, like stability, you know, being bored for a little while, going to a church and being around people who, I see them, they love God. Like they are trying to follow the Bible, but they're not like intense care, asmatics. And that's okay. Like just being willing to like, I don't have all the answers because what's been happening is not really working for me. And so let me, you know, within the parameters of quote unquote normal church or whatever, it's like, that's

okay. Like in sort of telling yourself, if I want to, I guess I can return to this, but I didn't. So what's very good advice. Thank you so much for doing this. Yeah. Thank you.

I love our conversations. I appreciate you letting me come on and chat with you. Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information or to share your story, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at William-Branum.org. For more about the dark side of the new apostolic reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Orbool.