From Healing Revivals to Deliverance Ministries

Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at William-Branham.org and with me I have my co-host, minister and friend, Chino Ross, pastor and the voice of the understanding scripture and truth by Chino D. Ross YouTube channel.

Chino it's good to be back and to talk about my favorite subject or one of one of the many I guess I would say this deliverance ministry thing that has caused such chaos in the world today. I don't know if you have noticed it but any time I mentioned Derek Prince. Everybody just goes berserk because they think well this is this good guy that left the shepherding movement and I'm thinking the back of my mind after researching this is that guy that helps start the shepherding movement and yes there's some there's some little trivial details in

there but the bottom line for me is what was created with this deliverance thing was a stage version of deliverance. Whenever I left the Branham movement I've mentioned to you several times I read the Bible over and over and over and one of the things that really stood out to me is yes they were able to cast out demons in Jesus name according to the Bible. You can read that very clearly but it wasn't to show the power of those casting out the demons it was to show the power in Jesus name and I kept reading reading that and

comparing to what we came out of and this whole deliverance thing turned into a stage act that was literally designed to make the person a feel like they had a demon whether they did or not be feel like the guy on the stage could deliver them from it and see to distract them of the gospel. Yeah on all three points I totally agree and if you look John early in Dr. Freeman's ministry I would say and this is you know based on when I first began following Hobart and had you know tape lists of his available cassette tapes from say the mid 1970s he had a

section in there on deliverance and I think there are I don't know half a dozen to a dozen tapes you know he didn't he didn't have that many he didn't have that many of anything and he just continued to grow as the next you know 12 14 years went by you cannot find here's the unfortunate thing very many taped messages from the late 1960s and he became care Matic in March of 1966 and the early very very early 70s. He was teaching in his own church under the water tower in Claypool and then moved over to a garage that belonged to the

song leader of his church, Jerry Irvin on Barbie Lake and then shortly thereafter in 1972 moved over to the glory barn. But even though you cannot find that many there are a few and the ones the taped messages that come in say 73 and 74 there are a lot of those that's when they really began recording duplicating and disseminating Dr. Freeman's message those cassette messages because they are relatively early make so many references to you what you know to be what was characteristic of Freeman in the late 60s and early 70s and on that basis I would say that

probably 50% of his ministry may be more in the late 60s that's post 1966 and the early 70s was occupied with this topic of demons and deliverance. He just felt he had this little niche and he had a ministry in this area and there is just constant references on the earliest tapes that are available to all of these episodes of people knocking on the door of his house or people coming to his church or or Hobart traveling to an FGBMFI meeting or going to some other Pentecostal charismatic setting and the topic and the experience would be demons and deliverance

and we need to remind ourselves also work because we're going to look a little more historically today at what Hobart Freeman's influences were we're I mean he didn't just come up with this on his own and as I said to you this morning before we started the podcast he obviously didn't get it from the Bible you know he would think that Bible teachers and preachers get their material from the Bible but in these circumstances in cases so many times that's simply not true but we need to remind ourselves that after he became charismatic march the 19th 1966 up in Chicago

he was invited by the same former grace professor colleague that had taken him to that meeting in Chicago John Ray he was invited by Dr. John Ray to travel down to Gordon Lindsay's Deliverance Seminar in Dallas, Texas that was held over a two week period in 1966 so this was all brand new to Hobart I mean, you know, he's left the brethren church.

He actually was excommunicated. He didn't leave voluntarily. He was fired from the seminary. He was excommunicated from the grace, brethren, denomination for a variety of reasons. Maybe we'll talk about later in this podcast.

Maybe not. But he still considered himself brethren because when they interviewed him at this Deliverance Seminar of all things, you know, that's as far from the brethren churches you can get. This Deliverance Seminar down in Dallas, Texas, they interviewed him as Dr. Hobart Freeman pastor of the brethren church in Claypool, Indiana.

So we just need to remind ourselves that his introduction to the charismatic and Pentecostal world within the first couple of months of him becoming charismatic was to attend a Deliverance Seminar. And we've looked a little bit at that in the past that they were gonna teach the attendees how to cast out devils.

And so, you know, this is Gordon Lindsay. This is W.V. Grant. This is Kenneth Hagen. They were three of the people there, Larry Hammond. Was another well-known person at that time. It was Larry Hammond that Hobart went to Israel with later that summer.

I mean, 1966 was busy for Hobart. And March, he gets slowly spirit up at McCormick Theological Seminary, March the 19th in Chicago, June, two weeks in early to middle June. He's down in Dallas, Texas.

He meets, you know, what you and I know to be famous people in this post-World War II healing movement. They weren't famous to Hobart. He probably had never heard of these people. But you and I know them to be famous.

And he falls right into their laps down there in Dallas, Texas. He meets Larry Hammond. I think Larry might have been a former Episcopal minister and becomes fast friends with Larry Hammond. And Larry says, I'm going to Israel this summer.

Do you want to go with me? So then that's the story we've told before where Hobart claims the trip, the money for the trip to Israel. Half of it comes in in Claypool, the other half, 45 minutes before his plane leaves in New York.

All of these stories that I have told over the last couple of years in these podcasts, these all tied in 1966. And so it was a busy year for Hobart. He's just being introduced to Brannum and Lindsay and Hagen and WV Grant and Jack Coe.

And he hears out John Alexander Dowey, Smith Wiggles' words. FF Bosworth, I mean the big names, the heavyweight names in the let's say the first half of the 20th century, and I'm sure he was also hearing of people like A.A. Allen.

A.A. Allen was another one of these ministers who had, he had received from a wealthy supporter the gift of a large parcel of land down in Arizona. He went on to purchase some more land, and he creates this, I don't know, it was called Miracle Valley, Arizona. He creates this huge Christian deliverance healing complex with A.A. Allen at the head of that.

And one of the things that is interesting, or was interesting about A.A. Allen, people should study up on him. I don't know how much you have put out on Allen, but he what you talking about a stage persona and performer.

I mean, he was just over the top, you know, buying people's testimonies. And I remember reading one story where a man came, you know, this is according to their press release. This is not anything that was done independently, but a man came for healing from cancer.

And, you know, he was eaten up with cancer. A.A. Allen gets him on the stage. Everything is always over the top in dramatic praise for him. The man comes back the next evening in the testimony line with a glass jar with five cancers that he had thrown up into the jar to prove that he had been healed of cancer.

And it's just, I mean, all of this is stage act after stage act. But one of the things that A.A. Allen was known for, maybe a little more than some of these other post-World War II healing evangelist was his emphasis on demons and deliverance.

He wrote a little book in 1963. So this is three years prior to Hobart Freeman's charismatic experience. And in that little book, he has, I believe there are 18 pictures hand drawn by a professional artist of demons that had been cast out of a woman who had 18 demons.

And she had more than Mary Magdalene had. She had 18 demons. And I don't know exactly how this woman was able to see each of these demons as they came out of her. But somehow she did, she was able to describe them to a professional artist. And people can take a look here at one of these demonic creatures.

It's interesting. You have to kind of blow it up and look at what this figure is carrying and he's carrying. a book, a history book. It's the history of something, and I haven't tried to figure out what it's the history of. Maybe it's a history of deliverance ministries in the first half of the 20th century. But here is a picture of what a demon is supposed to look like, and there were 18 of these pictures in AA Allen's book. So I'm just saying this is the background to the neo-pennacallstal charismatic movement in the 1960s that Hobart was definitely drinking

deeply from. I'm trying really hard not to laugh looking at this picture. There was a point in time when Brannum was doing similar things, and he was describing what the demons look like, and there's one instance. He says it looks just like the guy from Ali Hoop in the newspapers.

I'll throw that up on the screen too, but these guys were creating comic acts. That's really all it was, but they were shifting. There's a theme that shifts over time. They were shifting the ministry over time, and where it's really, really odd to me is if you study the real history, not the ones that they give you. The real history is they start with this big public spectacle, get everybody to come, and then finally people just start to realize there's something off here. This is a gimmick they're taking on money. When it hits that point, then it goes to these

private consultations. So Dowie did this in Australia. He had these big conventions. He finally stole the church. It's kind of funny. Comes the US. Same thing. They figure him out. Well, in the end, he goes to these private consultations in these healing rooms, and people were dying by the truck loads, and they would whisk them out at night. We've talked about that. Well, it went from public to private to public to private. Then the latter rain exploded this again. It went to this public spectacle, and people started to figure out, wait a minute, some of these people are being healed

in the same healing lines from city to city to city. I've got newspaper articles of this where they find out this one girl is healed of the same thing in multiple cities. Did she really have it in both cities? Well, people started to figure it out. So it goes to private consultations, and this repeats itself. This spectacle that happens. Again, if you go back to the Bible, the only case in which a human was given the authority to do this that I can find was whenever Jesus is sending the disciples out, show them that in my name, there is power in my name.

That's really the example that we are to glean from that. There isn't a show them that you have the power to do this, and they will bow down to you and give you everything from their pocketbooks.

And, you know, John, speaking of that example, let's follow that through if people want to use that in Hobart definitely did. He said, oh, Jesus sent the 12 out, and he sent the 70 out, and he's sending us out as well. One of the things they were told to do is don't carry any money with Don't carry any money with you.

Don't even carry an extra pair of shoes. I mean, if you want to literally follow that, then make sure you literally follow that. And of course, nobody does. Everybody, it's just, you know, it's just scissors and paste, picking shoes, which parts of those passages that you like, that tickle your fancy.

And, you know, having the power does, but carry no money, wow, I'm gonna be destitute out there. I better not follow that part of it. So of course they don't. And that's my problem, John, with all of these people's attempted use of the Bible.

So let's look a little more than a little deeper in some of the influencers behind Dr. Freeman just so that we have it down historically. And this is not difficult to do. Again, I reference everyone to find the earliest tapes on Dr. Freeman's tape list, which would mean the first ones under each category, because as he taught another message on deliverance, it would just become the next one under that heading.

But one of the people that he was deeply influenced by was a British born in London, lived in Canada, minister by the name of H-A Maxwell White, W-H-Y-T-E, who lived 1908. So he was, he was Hobart's elder.

And there weren't many people with Hobart being born in 1920 that were his elder. But Maxwell White was born in 1908, and he died in 1988, lived to be a ripe old age, born before Hobart and lived till after Hobart died.

He had a church in Canada in Toronto. Dr. Freeman mentions Maxwell White often on earlier tapes. He does not mention him later. It's so interesting that once Hobart became really established and that church in Indiana began to grow from, you know, 200 to 800 to 1200 to 1800,

Hobart took on a totally different tone. He kind of distanced himself from any of the people that he had benefited from in his mind, anyone that he had learned from, and it was just, it was just all him.

God has given all this to me. Without him actually saying, I didn't receive anything from anyone, I got it all from the Lord. That's the way he came across in most of his, most of his later years in his ministry.

But that's actually not true because Maxwell White was a huge influence on him. I copy down just a partial list of some of the books that Maxwell White wrote, and you can tell from the title, what he was all involved in in 1969.

He wrote a book called Dominion over Demons in 1973, the kiss of Satan also in 1970. 33, the power of the blood, 1974, manual on exorcism, and then after he died, either these were manuscripts that were published posthumously or people simply collected some of his things and put a book out in his name.

But in 1989, he had a book entitled Demons and Deliverance, and in 1997, of course, long after he died, there was a book published under his name called Casting Out Demons. So on a variety of messages I can remember hearing early on, this Hobart's ministry was my introduction to William Brannum, Gordon Lindsay, Maxwell White, and everybody else.

I didn't know any of these people, hadn't heard any of them. So I learned of them from Freeman. Of course, what happens, John, when you're young or you're new or you're both in following all of this, when you hear someone dropping all of these other names, and I don't mean that he was named dropping in a bad way, I just mean he's referencing all of these different ministers, then what can you take from that, but I must have been living under a rock because God's been doing this all over the world and look at all these ministers,

ministries, and healings, and demons being cast out. It's like where have I been? So it has a pretty big influence on a young naive person to hear. This isn't coming just from one minister, one church in Indiana because he's referencing all of these other people.

I know that later in Hobart's life, I'd say from the mid-70s on up into, you know, he died in 1984, he talked a whole lot about his radio antenna and his hobby of amateur radio broadcasting.

What is interesting is that Maxwell Hwyte was a communications officer for the British Royal Air Force in World War II and was a very well-known Ham radio operator, so it is just a guess of mine.

I cannot prove this, only people who are probably now dead could answer this question, but it's likely that Hobart picked up his interest in Ham radio operation through Maxwell Hwyte because not only were they friends, but Hobart would reference traveling to Maxwell Hwyte's church in Toronto to teach and to lead.

What is so interesting? You can hear this and then lead his congregation through deliverance, and I'm thinking, wait a minute, isn't this the deliverance pastor who was on the scene long before you? and had this deliverance ministry before you, but Hobart's going to his church in Toronto and leading in mass his congregation through deliverance.

And vice versa, Maxwell White would come down to Indiana and minister in Dr. Freeman's church. One of those books that we just mentioned in passing, probably his most famous book, which was published in 1973, was entitled The Power of the Blood.

You and I did a podcast on this several months ago, John, of the very frequent tendency in Hobart's ministry to teach his people that if you would, in case of any emergency, automobile rack, anything dangerous about to happen, if you will simply scream out, I plead the blood of Jesus.

He got this from Maxwell White's book and his teaching because that's what Maxwell White stood for. He said, we have discovered in our church that there's power in the blood, that there's power in the blood.

And what they meant by that is not what we mean by that or what the New Testament means by that, where when it references the blood of Jesus, it's talking about his death on the cross.

And there definitely was power in his death. It's only through his death that we can receive forgiveness of sins in the gift of eternal life. But these men had turned that into a magic formula that if you'll just yell out the blood of Jesus that no demon can stand before that statement.

Of course, they always have this caveat if you uttered in faith, which then means if they don't flee, then there's something wrong with you. So there was no way to ever disprove what they were saying.

You know, they said whenever they pled the blood of Jesus and things worked, if you pled the blood of Jesus and things didn't work, then that was always somehow, you know, it was your fault.

It was not the fault of the formula. And they had a verse. They also had a verse, Revelation 12-11. And they overcame him by the what? The blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony.

And you know, John, I was talking to someone a few months ago about, maybe it was even before we did the podcast on pleading the blood, but we were talking about that. And he brought up the fact when I was critical of Dr. Freeman's what I felt was a completely unscriptural and biblical use of the blood of Jesus by teaching people to plead the blood, plead the blood over blood conditions, plead the blood over the children who are coming down with some illness, plead the blood if you are about to have a car wreck.

That was always the biggest one because I think a car wreck happens so fast. You don't have time to do anything, except scream out something that you memorized. And that is, I plead the blood of Jesus.

But I told this. someone who said, well, you know, channel, they do use Revelation 12 11 and they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb in the Word of their testimony. I said, yes. But what is interesting is that the people referenced in that verse in Revelation 12 11, who did have the power of the blood and a testimony in their life, the people referenced in that verse end up dead by the end of the verse because it says, and they love not their lives unto the death. So it's obviously talking about Christian martyrs, martyrdom happening during this period that Revelation 12 is addressing.

So I said, I don't know that that's the verse you would want to use to plead the blood because, again, the people referenced in that verse end up dead afterwards. And I told this gentleman, I said, that's a classic example of what I've been so critical of for all these decades.

And that is just hopscotching through the Bible, trying to find not a verse, just half of a verse that says what you want it to say, pull it out of context and ignore the rest of it. So I said, I would watch out pleading the blood on the basis of Revelation 12 11 because you may end up dead before everything's said and done. It's interesting the twists and turns in all of these ministries. Whenever you look at the new apostolic reformation today, you look at all of these apostolic networks and people are caught in the weeds trying to figure out, well, how did this turn

out at all of that turn into let's go charge Washington and try to take it over. But you have to understand there was a there's a strong level of political themes in it and there were many, many other things like you said, the literal blood thing. What was happening is as the ministries were starting to be showmanship ministries with all these big tents, then suddenly the radio ministries took off then the television ministries, what happened is many ministers heard things that got them excited on the radio or the TV and they'd start preaching it and spreading it. And so

you didn't even have to be connected to an apostolic network. You're just simply driving down the road. Let's turn on the radio station as I'm going to my next event. Oh, well, that sounds good.

I'll bet I could use that in my ministry. And it was spreading like wildfire, some of the craziest notions. So the literal blood thing, we grew up and this happened during the height of Branham's ministry, not after he was starting to be sanctioned. He started saying that if I just had what did you say a charge if I just had a charger with one literal drop of the blood of Jesus Christ, how powerful that would be. This coming from a man who was teaching that there were two bloodlines.

So whenever you take that theme that he probably heard on the radio and that the radio guy probably read it from the book you're describing, He heard that and he ran with it. Well now to his audience who's believing in the serpent seed doctrine, the two bloodline doctrine, that means something entirely different than even the guy that wrote it.

But that's how this is morphing and spreading and turning into all of these weird things. And in the end, when you take all of the different things that were taught and you throw them into this bowl and you stir up all of this concoction of doctrines, some of them, like this literal blood thing, is actually the anti-biblical thing that they're teaching.

The way that they taught it was anti-biblical. And they don't even know it, but they're mixing it and sprinkling it and peppering it with Bible verses to make it sound biblical. And so people would hear it.

Well, combine that with deliverance ministry. Now you've got the radio horror shows that are coming on the TV, horror shows, all of the weird things that show spiders coming under your bed at night.

People would literally listen to these entertainment things. Now they're hearing demonology thinking, oh my gosh, I just, I watched Alfred Hitchcock last night. I wonder if that thing's real. And then the minister starts talking about the Alfred Hitchcock thing.

We actually had, I can't remember the name of it, but me and another guy was doing some research into the, it wasn't the national inquirer, but a similar fate magazine. There were fate magazine articles being published in the voice of healing, talking about UFOs and weird things.

That's the level of entertainment that was being blended in. And when you blend in the Hollywood version of entertainment with deliverance ministry, what you end up is this weird thing where it's like Stephen King wrote a book about a preacher.

It's truly remarkable to me, John, that Hobart fell for this stuff. You know, there's something, there was something, there was something out of plum, let's say in his brain, to have been a seminary trained professor, you know, who had read, you know, I don't know, archeological near Eastern studies, you know, lots of boring technical stuff.

And all of a sudden, you know, he falls in to the lap of late or mid 1960s Pentecostalism, and this resonated with him. There's something wasn't right there to begin with. And again, I don't know what it was, but something wasn't right.

I'll leave that right there. Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation?

You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, William-Branham.org. On the book's page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Steven McGummery. John McKinnon and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.

You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top.

And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching. On behalf of William Brownham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.

You mentioned Derek Prince in the very beginning of this podcast. Derek Prince was another big proponent and another big influencer of demons and deliverance in Dr. Freeman's life. There were actually five of them, five of these ministers who ended up banning together and all moving to or ministering out of Fort Lauderdale and Florida and they became known as the Fort Lauderdale five.

And yes, even though they had other emphases at an earlier point in their life, they became known as the Founding Fathers of the Shepherdship movement. And one of these men, the elder of them, actually was a sidekick of William Brownham and that's Ern Baxter.

Ern Baxter was a Canadian minister who ended up traveling with William Brownham. I don't know if he was a right hand man, but he definitely was in the William Brownham Crusades as a fellow minister.

He ends up Ern Baxter in Fort Lauderdale, Florida with the other four, Derek Prince, Don Basham, Charles Simpson, and Bob Mumford. People of whom I heard myself back in the 1970s, I never heard Baxter, but I heard some of these others because they were big time traveling ministers from let's say the late 60s on into the early to mid 80s, especially their heyday would have been the 1970s, which is when I became exposed to all of this.

They actually moved to Fort Lauderdale and began a ministry called Christian Growth Ministries or the Christian Growth Movement, and they had their own magazine, just like Gordon Lindsey had the voice of healing, these guys had new wine magazine.

And it was a very popular magazine, and I subscribed to it in the 1970s, couldn't wait to get every edition that came in, and Hobart Freeman wrote at least an article, if not more than one article, for New Wine Magazine.

And yes, these guys ended up being the founding fathers of the Shepard Ship Movement. And I think what happened in their mind was that there was so much foot loose and fancy free happening in the charismatic movement.

And it was just like the days of the judges. the Bible that every man was for himself. They were looking for some more structure and organization and accountability. I think this is probably somewhat of the origin of the Shepherdship movement and I'm a no authority on that. But they were looking for some type of system of structure and leadership. And so they came up with this and Don Basham, actually, one of these ministers himself was submitted to Derek Prance as his shepherd. So the idea was you had to have some authority figure over you that served as your covering, as your spiritual

covering. What's interesting about all of this? Well, there's several things. Dr. Freeman was close buddies with these guys to begin with. They began teaching the Shepherdship teaching. Dr. Freeman became an opponent of the Shepherdship movement. Did a series of three messages and then a fourth one called updating it where he took these guys to task. And I think some of what he said was right. You know, I don't think the Shepherdship movement was a healthy or Christian movement at all. But guess what? Guess who became a far worse practitioner of Shepherdship than any of those guys ever could have possibly dreamed of? Hobart Freeman. He got to the point where he said

he was the only one who had the end time truth. He was the only one who had all of the end time true. He almost relished going back and foeing under the bus because he is smarter and wiser and more biblical and more faithful to scripture than these guys. Kenneth Hagen, Brandon, the Fort Lauderdale guys, all the guys that he had positively recommended earlier through them all under the bus because they've all gone into air and deception and heresy. But we are standing on the pure unadulterated word here at Faith Assembly. Well, you know, the story of Dr. Freeman,

he told you what kind of purse you couldn't couldn't carry and what kind of tennis shoe you could wear. You couldn't you couldn't have a shirt that has a slogan on it like mine. Couldn't celebrate your own birthday. You couldn't do anything. You talk about and you had to follow Hobart Freeman.

And you could not be in a disagreement with Hobart Freeman or you were not welcome at that church. What is that? But the worst form of human bondage and shepherd ship. You know, he had a nation of people, the Faith Assembly Heights, under him, who couldn't lift a finger without approval of not the ministry at Faith Assembly, but Hobart Freeman himself. So two of these five ministers there, John, Derek Prantner, Don Basham were definitely the two that were better known for their teaching on deliverance.

They all taught on the gifts, they all taught on speaking in tongues, they all taught on healing. Derek Prince was known a little more for his teaching on Israel. He and his second wife ended up moving to Israel and living there.

Derek Prince was known more for his teaching on fasting, but Derek Prince and Don Basham were particularly known for their teaching on deliverance. So I want to, I want us to listen to a small clip from one of Hobart's tapes entitled Methods of Delivering the Oppressed.

And this is a, this is a fairly long message. It is, it is a standard early Hobart Freeman message where he has the audience turned to a passage to begin with, to begin the hour in maybe 25 minutes sermon, but I'm telling you if you want a classic one to listen to a Freeman, how he'll turn to a passage and the rest of the hour and a half message is story after story after story after story.

And it all is not about healing. It all concerns demons and deliverance. And before we listen to this clip, let me just say early on in this recorded message John, somewhere around, I think the eight minute mark, he's telling a story as he frequently does and as he continually did on this tape about some people have gone through deliverance in another state.

And he mentions Don Basham and he mentions Basham by name and he mentions Basham's new book that had just been published called Deliver Us From Evil. And in the back of that book, and that might be a book that is still in print today, Don Basham actually has, if not a state by state, a region of the country, by region of the country, glossary of where you could go to get some deliverance if you live somewhere in that area.

And so he mentions that early on. But then if we could listen to from around 44 minutes to 47 minutes and five second mark. There's such a thing in the fourth place, self-deliverance. You know you can deliver yourself?

Well, I know it, I hope you know it. Jesus said, I've given you power, given us, you power over all the power of the enemy. He's given it to you. You'd be surprised what can come out of you or release you.

He said, these signs will follow them to believe. They shall cast out demons. Well, that doesn't just necessarily mean other people because you can cast them out of yourself. Now, that may be a...

little stretch your imagination or your thinking capacity a little to think that you could do this or that maybe that you even need it. I'm not suggesting you do. I'm saying if you do that you'd be surprised what you can do for yourself. I've heard Basham and Prince both and their deliverance ministers tell of casting spirit out of themselves when the Lord showed them what it was and they knew when it left. And these are deliverance ministers.

I prayed for deliverance ministers friends. I don't name names at that point for the alcohol, you see. And I've seen people change when I have two ministers and I did it faith. But anyhow, well just for an example a couple we stayed with are in deliverance ministry and they said when they first, well I don't mind telling who it was, same people that wanted me to do delivering the other night up in Virginia. And when Don Basham first came to their home was writing on his manuscript for this book. He began to talk about these

things and they'd look at one another. They just received the baptism and they'd never heard anything like this. All these manifestations and so forth and so on. And they really got concerned about it and Basham said you can deliver yourself and sometimes people need help and they took that to heart when he left. They said every night fully go to bed we'd cast there itself or so. And they knew they had problems there. You know like fear and resentment and so forth. And they didn't know anything about this and they just knew how sometimes you come out and the brother, Mr. Wallace, he said for three weeks. When I cast spirit

out for three weeks he says I sleep like a baby and he does. He can eat everything refrigerated and sleep all night and he usually does. He'd a lot and then just… Now he's 70 some odd years old but you'd never know it. But he said when I first started casting these up two or three times every night for three weeks I'd have to get up and go to the bathroom and wretch. And you know he just sleeps right on through the night and nothing to wake up. And you see they were coming out. So you can cast these out of yourself.

So in this clip that we have just heard he favorably, positively mentions both Basham and Prince. So you can tell this is long before the shepherdship controversy or he would never be recommending these guys. But what he is talking about in this part of this long winded message, he just given all kinds of principles and here's how you should do it this way.

But if that doesn't work, try this and every person has a different guilt. And every person has a different ministry, and every need is different. So then if that doesn't work, then you can also try this.

It was just mass confusion. If you really pay attention to what the deliverance minister said, no one did what Jesus did. When Jesus just said, come out of him, you unclean spirit. The spirit came out.

None of them did that. There was all of these techniques and methods, and it was super, super complicated. And I think they made it that way so that if you failed, they could always say, well, you just didn't try the right method.

And so one of these methods that holds our mentions, believe it or not, is the self deliverance method. I mean, where, where in the world do these guys come up with this stuff? He said, yep, he said one other method.

I think it might have been the fourth one here in this message he was talking about it. He said, there's such thing as self deliverance. You know, Jesus said, you could cast out demons.

Well, that doesn't mean necessarily that you cast them out of someone else. You can just cast them out of yourself. So just go to the back room of the house and just say, demon, come out of me.

I command, I am commanding you to come out of me. And he references prince and basham casting spirits out of them. And cells, you know, in a deliverance session. Look, I mean, I know I sound like a broken record, John, but I always say, where do you find any of this nonsense in the Bible?

Where does anybody practicing this? Where is anybody taught that you can cast a demon out of yourself? So this is what Hobart said you could do. Hobart learned it from Don Basham and Derek Prince that if there is no deliverance minister around, you can practice exorcism on yourself.

It's funny hearing you talk about Hobart accepting it and then later condemning it in the broader Brannemite movement. We condemned even the leaders that were leading the shepherd movement. They earned backstreet. You mentioned our backstreet was part of the backstreet Brannem campaigns.

He was not only so Brannem's campaign manager. They were partners until they split. And according to Brannem's publicist leave, they split because they would fly into a country. And as they were leaving, the ministers would say, is it okay that backstreet is taking our women?

And that's a quote. You can find it on the website if you want to look that up. But the ministers themselves need a deliverance. Apparently, and you fast forward to today, they still need it.

But the thing that bothered me, what attracted people to it? You asked that question about Hobart. I've asked it about my family. You can go right down the line. All of your friends, their grandparents, what brought them in?

And what I have learned based on my studies is is that there were gimmicks used to a people who really needed it. Hobart, he had his problem with his foot and who knows what all else that he had.

These people were claiming that you can have immediate deliverance from pain. Whereas if you go to the doctor, they're gonna tell you we're going to put you on this thing that might help you cope.

Well, the people who realize it, I'm gonna have this problem for life, maybe I'll try out this deliverance thing because they're talking about getting healed. And they were putting things in, I wish I could remember the article name in the year that it came out.

In the Voice of Healing magazine, there were all these testimonies. People sending them, I guarantee you their fake, but one of them was this lady saying, praise God, I'm healed of cancer. I went through the healing line and they told me I had cancer, they cast the demon out.

Praise God, I'm healed. I didn't even know I had cancer. And to a person reading it, who's caught up in that deliverance mindset, they're thinking, oh, praise God. And I'm thinking, well, if she didn't know she had cancer and they don't have any equipment there to take the blood test, et cetera, how do they know you?

So the question is raised, what are they doing? But the bigger question is, why are the advertisements instant healings? And then when you went to the actual thing, they would say, now go home believing, don't you doubt it?

Because if you doubt it's going to come back on you, you're healed, go home believing and then be healed later. There was always be healed later, but they would advertise it as, this is an instant thing.

And people were starting to question, and I think that's why it went into the private discussions. Let's have a private discussion about this healing that you're supposed to get and never God. But whenever they would publish the information and these advertisements, it was this instant thing that would attract people like Hobart who had a sincere need.

He really did, he really needed it. He wanted to believe it. And so the only way you can believe it is to take that next step, which is a leap of faith. I'm going to take this leap of faith.

I'm going to say, confess that I believe it. I'm going to claim the blood, all of the different things that they tell you. And in the end, it didn't work. That's the really the sad part.

In the end, it truly didn't work. I mean, look at how we documented Hobart's death. He died, as I've often said, the death of the damned. He died a horrible death. None of it worked, none of the healing, none of the, you know, but the whole deliverance thing was very concerning to me because, you know, and I wonder whether it's over the long haul calls more damage, maybe than the healing.

I mean, healing calls damage. Hobart's insistence on no medicine and no doctors. People went for years without being able to drive because they couldn't pass the... I examined the motor vehicle office and you couldn't wear glasses.

That was a sin. You couldn't do anything that was leaning to the arm of the flesh and you know, some people ended up actually dying if they had a terminal case and quit their medicine.

So the anti-medicine, anti-doctor stuff was bad, was real bad. But this demonic area, John, is so psychological and it's invisible and you can't put your hands on it and you can't see it. I mean, you can see when someone is wearing glasses or not wearing glasses or they're taking their medication or not taking their medication, but this demonic realm is so subjective that I just wonder how much damage to this day has been done by all of these ministers.

Hobart included false teaching on demons and deliverance and we're going to get into Hobart's real weird aspects of this over the upcoming weeks. But I just think he, you know, I've mentioned this before, maybe it, maybe I can mention it again, maybe it went over people's heads.

But I remember earlier in my life, I was reading, studying the book of Acts. That's, you know, the church's foundation, post-Penocal's Acts 2. I was studying the book of Acts, but I was also looking with my, not just my own Bible, my translation, but my Greek New Testament, my Nestle Olin, 26th edition, my Greek New Testament and just looking at some of the words and concepts and there's the most interesting story that told in chapter 17 that you would just, you know, it resonated with me because I was studying and thinking about Freeman's background, but Paul had ended up on his

second missionary journey in the Greek city of Athens. He had been debating with the Epicureans and the Stoics in the marketplace. And they make this, Luke records this one comment that they wonder, speaking of Paul, what will this babbler say?

That's the way it's translated in the King James Bible, this babbler. And I wonder, what is that, what is that word? Because when I see the word babbler, I think maybe someone who's got their tongue twisted or their tongue tied or someone who's just, you know, can't pronounce words or maybe someone who is dripping a little slavas or trying to speak that he's just babbling on.

Actually, that was an Athenian slang term, one of reproach, and it had to do. It could be literally translated as a seed picker, a seed picker and say, well, what in the world is a seed picker?

Well, what they meant by that, if you look at the context, these philosophers, the Stoics, the Epicureans, I mean, this was... the center of philosophy and culture and learning and education in the world then was Athens, Greece.

This is where all the smart people were, or at least the people who thought they were smart. And Paul, Luke even says, they love to do nothing more than either here or learn some new thing.

They were just all into what's the new fat. So they hear Paul coming along and they call him a seed picker, which someone else has said could also be referred to as a gutter sparrow.

This is a retailer of second-hand scraps of knowledge. This is a picker up of learning's crumbs. And that is exactly, I think Paul was falsely accused of that. Paul was a brilliant man. Go on and read the rest of Acts 17 and that's a sermon he preached to the Ariopagites on Mars Hill.

And I think that phrase is a perfect description of Hobart Freeman. He was a seed picker. He just went around as you just said, you turn on the radio and you hear, oh, this person over here in Miracle Valley, Arizona, he has this teaching.

He went around like a gutter sparrow just picking up a little from dispensationalism, a little from grace brethren, old order dress, a little from Kenneth Hagen, a little from William Branham, a little from AA Allen, a whole lot from Derek Prince and Don Basham.

He was a seed picker. That's what people like this are. They don't carefully study the text. They don't have a consistent hermeneutic, they don't have a well-fault theology. It is literally a patchwork quilt of all kinds of variety of things that they have heard from other ministers or have read from their works.

Just to give you a really bizarre example of this, Hobart Freeman did a series of messages. Again, this is dating back to the early 1970s, but he did a series called Spiritual Warfare. I just want to listen to a minute worth of Spiritual Warfare Part 2 from the 43-minute and 43-second mark to the 44-minute and 47-mark.

Living creatures, Ezekiel One, Revelation, have faces like an ox and a lion and a bear and a man, four faces on one neck. They don't look strange when you see them. I mean, they may look different, but they don't look strange.

Because what God creates, He creates perfect. I don't like to tell somebody else's visions, let them tell it, but I do remember Kenneth Hagen telling about one of them. Lord caught him up before the throne.

Now I guess we can all receive that here. He said the living creature standing before the throne of the father, of course no one can look on the father. There was a veil before him, but he was there confronted with Jesus and when he looked at the living creatures before the throne had heads with eyes all around and in the shape of a triangle.

If they're not odd looking when you see what God has made, you see you tried to draw the picture of it, it would look funny. So here's Hobart talking about deliverance, spiritual warfare, as a big subject, spiritual warfare.

We're going to talk about demons and he's talking about all the different kinds of creatures God has made, which is true in the Bible, seraphim, cherubim and angels and then he mentions the living creatures.

The living creatures that we read about only in two places in the Bible, we read about them in Ezekiel 1 and then we see them appear in the book of Revelation, in that book for the first time in chapter 4.

And if you're familiar with those two portions of Scripture, you realize these are very odd looking to us creatures who have four faces on the four different sides of their head and they're described that way in Ezekiel and his vision of them and the Apostle John when he sees them in heaven in Revelation chapter 4.

Well, what Hobart does is he references Kenneth Hagen. He said, well, you know, I don't like to tell other men's stories, I like to let them tell it for themselves, but I do remember Kenneth Hagen telling when he went to heaven, you know, Hagen allegedly died and went to hell and somehow went to heaven also.

I just can't believe these men John were allowed to get away with these stories. These are completely false and fake stories. They told them repetitively and if you tell a lie often enough and it goes unchallenged, you know what happens, it becomes true.

So he had gone to heaven and was before the throne of God and had seen the living creatures and here's the thing that is so fascinating to me that shows Hobart was a seed picker.

He's just grabbing any morsel, any little seed he can find. He's a gutter sparrow. He references approvingly that Hagen had gone to heaven and seen these creatures and they had a triangular shaped head.

Uh oh, well, if they had a triangular shaped head, they can only have three faces and the Bible says that they had four. So I was always amazed how either Kenneth Hagen or Hobart either didn't know the Bible well enough or just simply didn't care that you've gone to heaven Kenneth Hagen and the living creatures, and if he has a triangular shaped head, that means he only has three sides to his head, and the Bible describes it as four. So what are you doing coming back to earth and telling us this garbage, this nonsense? Those creatures in heaven have four sides to their

head. They have four faces, not three, and here's Hobart, the gutter sparrow that he was, picking up that, and perpetuating that same story himself. Literally, I could talk probably for the next 20 episodes about the deliverance issues, because there are so many. But the weirdest one is that they end up scapegoating the demons. I don't know if you've thought through this, but the people, people who are caught up in that movement, the person didn't lie. They had a lying spirit. The demon becomes a scapegoat. The person did not abuse their power. They had Jezebel spirit, Leviathan spirit. There's ways in which they can take the blame off of the human,

and it's usually the elders, the leaders, the ministers, whatever sin they fall into, well, that was a spirit that was on me. That's gone now. You can trust me now. Trust me, because I was delivered of this thing that I'm trying to deliver you of. And then the reverse happens.

If a person starts questioning, they have a questioning spirit, or they have a, there's so many different ways that you do this, but it's twisting the blame so that nobody really takes responsibility in the movement. And what it has resulted in, you can see today, by just simply turning on the news or reading the newspapers, all of these ministries are now scapegoating the demons saying, I'm sorry, I fell to this sin, and you precious sisters, you can trust me in my next ministry after I got out of prison. That's how bad this has become. And it's all because they created this

platform of entertainment. They brought in all of the aspects of entertainment. And then they packaged it in this package with a pretty bow that says, this is the gospel. And it's really not. That's really the problem. It's, it's, you know, if they want to make a movie and show some entertainment, maybe put a disclaimer at the beginning, everything I'm about to tell you is fiction.

But this story will really excite your itching ears, but they don't do that. They say, this is what the Bible says. And it, it really doesn't. So thank you so much for doing this.

And John, to your point, what you were just ending with, we'll discuss that more as we go along. They're still plenty to talk about here. Absolutely. Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at William-Brandom.org.

For more about the dark side of the new Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.