From Hopelessness to Healing: Tools for Recovery from Cult Abuse

Hello, welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at William-Branham.org and with me I have my co-host, Dr. Jesse Collins, former message member and psychotherapist. Jesse, it's good to have you back. We've done so many podcasts on our over-commering series about mental health and there's one topic that we really didn't get to and I really wanted to. I just wasn't yet mentally prepared for it because it is a heavy, heavy subject and it's one that really hits home for me. So this is a topic that I wanted to do with you and I think I

have now healed to a point where I can. But I won the audience. This is a, like I said, it's a very deep, heavy subject. It's not probably a, I wouldn't consider it a family-friendly topic, but we're going to be talking about self-harm and the relationship between self-harm and members of high control groups, high-demand groups, cults. The need for suicide prevention is strong and I think this is something that you and I can discuss and now, like I said, I'm healed to a point where I can. But it also is tied to and related to

something that you have that's very exciting. You've been recently in a documentary and wanted to have you on so that you could talk a little bit about that and then dive deeper into the subject of helping people to overcome the thoughts and the dark place that they're in. Whenever you leave a cult, it's it's difficult time. So thank you for coming. Maybe if you could tell everybody a little bit about your exciting news with the documentary.

Well, thanks John. It's going to be back and I appreciate you taking a time to address this important topic. Last time we talked about those inclined to self-harm and trying to prevent that and I was involved in helping create a documentary called Scene Through the Darkness and it's by Carl David and Frank Ponyko. Scene Through the Darkness is about a series it's a documentary where a series of people are interviewed who have experienced thoughts of self-harm or had loved ones people close to them.

are. So it's an important documentary. It's about this one is particularly focused on military and first responders, but really it applies to everybody who might be thinking of being at that point in their life where they're considering taking action against themselves.

So they have a loved one who's in that dark place. So I encourage you to take a look at the documentary to series of interviews that are cross correlated through through the documentary as different pieces of the interview correlate with each other even though the interviewees didn't even know each other. So it's a it's a powerful piece and I encourage you to take the time to look at see through the darkness if you get a chance. Well awesome that's exciting news it's a it's a good topic I think that is really needed especially in the cult groups that

follow my channel, the people who have been in religious movements that are high demand groups. There appears to be from what I understand a direct correlation between people who are given a traumatic scenario from having been in one of these cult groups and eventually leading into self-harm. We've had a number of people who have contacted me on the website and said that they were prone to this after having been in it. In fact one of the first few people that contacted me whenever my website first launched in 2012 told me that the only reason that they were still alive

was because they had found my content and they began to realize that what was happening to their brain wasn't something that happened to itself it was something that was inflicted by the by the cult that they had escaped and that's just one of I bet at this point I've had 10 to 11 people now who have contacted me and there's probably even a larger number of people who haven't yet contacted me who have gone through something similar and you and I have backgrounds where family members have we've lost family members so this is a very important subject for me I think I

mentioned with you I know I mentioned with one of the other podcasts but towards the climax of my being in the cult I call it climax I don't know what what what she calls this whenever the explosion happened and I decided it was time to time to make my exit things weren't very good and I had not reached the point yet where it was dangerous but we have a cousin you and I who was calling me daily and talking me through it so that I didn't get to that point and my I'm alive today because

of him and sadly we lost him to covid but it's very real to me because because I went through it, I know exactly what it's like. I have other podcast hosts who have also gone through it and it's very real, it's very painful.

I don't know that last time you and I talked, I could have really approached this subject. I've come to a place of healing now where I think I can, but it is very, for somebody who's experienced it, it is something that will, you'll remember it the rest of your life, you'll never forget it, you always feel it, and if you overcome it, you will get to a place where you don't put yourself into a position where you can be susceptible to this again.

So this is a very important topic. I think if we were to attack this, I would want to attack it in such a way where we are talking to people who might be experiencing those thoughts and try to lift them out of it.

That's excellent point, John. Here's the thing is that cults are very controlled oriented and so when and people, organizations that are controlled oriented leave their subjects, few options except compliance. And if you're out of compliance, then you're usually condemned to some type of eternal damnation or being banned from that community and have your social ties cut off and being cut off from your loved ones.

So it's really a horrible choice to have to make if you're going to leave the cult. All of your family and loved ones connections are often cut off or limited and you are quoting, quote, an outcast from that community.

And that leaves people feeling helpless and hopeless. And those are the two main emotions or states of mind that are consistent with somebody wanting to self-harm because they feel helpless, they feel hopeless. There's nothing else I can do.

There is no solution for me. And so I think I'll just hurt myself. And I'll give you an example that the friend of I was a pastor, we both assisted at a domestic violence shelter years ago.

And he was the chaplain for the shelter. And he had a lady come to him that was attending another church and the church was very, very, very against divorce under any circumstances. And the lady was experiencing domestic violence on the daily from her husband.

Apparently pretty aggressive domestic violence. And so she'd gone to her pastor asking, what should she do? And the pastor said, doesn't matter, you know, what he's doing to you, you can't ever leave him. So she came to the chaplain at the domestic violence shelter and asked him. And he said, no, that's not true. You're not bound by marriage to be abused and beaten. You can be safe and you don't have to stay with somebody who's abusing you. And so the lady told him, well, I'm glad you said that because I had already made up my mind that if you told me the same

thing my pastor told me here at the domestic violence shelter, that I was going to go home and commit self-reveal. And that because she felt hopeless and helpless, that there was a way out of her situation. And once the pastor at the domestic violence shelter gave her a way out, helped her with the legal issues, helped her with the finance because all those resources were available at the domestic violence shelter. She had hope. She said, oh, there's a way out. I don't have to live this life. I'm not stuck in this marriage where this person

is beating me and being horrible to me. So once he extended the whole life line, he literally saved life. So that's an example of how powerful hopelessness and helplessness can be, as well as how powerful life line could be. Absolutely. The other thing that I have noticed that the high-demand groups, the cult groups do is, well, two things. First, they like to dehumanize, especially their enemies. If they can take the human element away and you're attacking the the so-called demons inside or however they frame it, you're dehumanizing your enemies.

But then what happens when you do this, there are people within the congregation who may have similar ways of thinking than those who are the enemy. And so they begin to dehumanize themselves. And this is a huge problem. The other thing that the cult groups and the high-demand groups will do is they will often, especially in the more destructive groups, they will present you with the idea that your self-worth is of no value. The cult is of all value, yourself is of no value.

And this combination, when you combine those two things together and you are in that mindset, if you have no self-worth and you have been dehumanized, you start to question your existence. And this is a huge problem. I've had several people, well, handful of people who have talked to me of the thoughts that went through their head whenever this was happening. But I know that a large number of people have gone through both of those things. Where it gets really tricky is some people can go through this and do the research, leave, and heal without much intervention. Some people

just have such a positive outlook. attitude. They just leave and say, I'm done. I don't want any more of this. But there are other people who struggle with it. And it doesn't make them weaker or of less value. People or people. They both have self-worth. But some people need some assistance. And that's something that I think we don't handle very well, even in mainstream churches I have attended. I think that there is a strong need for helping people with these kinds of struggles. Control groups have a vested interest in that dehumization and making people feel worthy if they're in the group, but unworthy and

worth less if they're out of the group. Because if they're out of the group, the control group has lost control over them and that's not helpful to their mission. And so it's really easy to see how it's a very small leap from, I'm leaving to, oh well, and I would use a phrase of pastor and said to someone I know personally, it told me because the person wouldn't give compliance the pastor said, therefore I condemn you to hell as an attempted control measure. Either you do what I say or you're going to hell. Now, biblically, we know that the determination of hell is rendered

to Jesus Christ, you know, not to humans. We can't condemn someone to hell. And when Jesus decides who goes to hell and who doesn't. But in this case, the guy was taking that power to himself as a control mechanism over this person that was talking to me. And that's how some people believe it.

They're like, oh, no, I'm going to hell. And they don't question that this human doesn't have the authority to condemn anyone to hell. But you know, it's very easy, especially in emotional moments to lose logic and reason. Whenever I left, I began studying the Protestant Reformation.

And I came across a large number of sermons by Martin Luther, which I wish I could find that repository again, because I can't remember the exact phrasing. But he said something to the effect that these people are preaching constant fear of hell. And I'm not going to do this in my church because I don't have a single parishioner who wants to go there. Instead, I'm going to preach heaven. And I'm paraphrasing greatly because I can't recall the exact words. But I began to think about that. And I was, interestingly, I was in a mainstream church that almost every sermon,

that's what they focused on. And you just felt so beaten down and broken. And the way that it worked, I started to analyze the structure of the sermons. And interestingly, I was at the same time analyzing the...

leader that I had left, the structure of his sermons, and what they would do is they would break you down to the lowest level and then lift you up as though they were the savior.

So on the one hand you had a cult leader who's doing it. Well, this was just a regular pastor. I would not consider it a cult or a cult leader, but his structure of the sermons was much the same.

And I started thinking about the mental health consequences of doing this. When you break people down like this, it's not healthy. It's not a not a good thing to do. And even so also at the same time, all this is going on. I've mentioned this a few times. We had a dog that I was training.

And I was learning to train a dog. I was researching to train a dog. And it was very, very obvious things that I was reading. Like you don't constantly beat the dog down. You want to give them praise, give them a treat, something uplifting, not breaking them down. And so I'm sitting here in these sermons thinking, well, they're treating us worse than dogs in here. And again, some people can handle it. This didn't really phase me. I just walked away and I decided this church is not for me. I'm going to try another one. But there are people who after being treated

like a dog, they suffer and they struggle. Well, it's human nature to want to be accepted, loved, and appreciated, and to belong. And unfortunately, those natural inclinations that we have that we're born with can be used against us. And while it can be used in a positive way, such as the military does, they take a civilian and they break them down from their civilian thought processes and rebuild them into a military thought processes. And they can develop very successful fighting units, very, very, very successful units that perform very well because they got them to stop thinking in a civilian manner and turn to a military command structure manner. And so you can

get people from all over the country with all different religions and cultural backgrounds and ethnic backgrounds and get them to perform as one unit, all dressed the same, acting the same, doing the same thing. And so done right, these people have they they exit the training with very high self esteem. They're very proud of their accomplishments and often look back on their service for the rest of their life with pride. So that process can be a very positive one. Or if you have, but they don't have even a intent, if you've got even a 10, the process can be a

very negative one. And so that's why critical thinking is so important at every level. Being able to think critically about what is actually going on here and why is this person saying this to me and what do they have to gain, right?

Whose ox is being gourd, the old saying, you know, follow the money is another one. And so command and control can be absolutely misused and abused or can be used for positive. And I think the key to that is in the military version you're describing, there is a breaking down but there's also a building up.

And the building up is the focus, not the breaking down. You break down, you know, you understand how it works. But the the sermons that I'm referring to whenever they broke the people down, the uplifting part wasn't as uplifting as it could have been.

I just say it like that. And especially in the call groups, right? But so people who have been broken down like this, the like I said, the value of self-worth is decreased and people start to feel, if you feel worthless, you feel helpless, what do you do?

And that's really where the mindset gets to that point where it becomes a little bit dangerous. What do you tell people whenever they're in that mindset? 100% reach out, help is a phone call or a keyboard stroke away.

It might even be a friend away. But step out of the organizational structure that's causing the problems. So let's talk a little bit about the post-exit crisis. Whenever you leave a cult, there's a crisis that happens and it's unexpected for a lot of people.

I know it was for me. Whenever I left, I had this glorious idea that I had the information, I had the facts, the facts were definitely worth leaving the cult. And I assumed as soon as I presented all of these facts to the people who were in it, immediately there would be this mass exodus.

And people would leave this into freedom. There would not be this high demand pressure all of the things that we were burdened down with. But the reality is whenever people are under a deep level of mind control, which happens with many of these cult groups, the family doesn't just instantly leave.

They have to go through the same process you did to get there. And it's a quite extensive process. So whenever a person leaves, there's this sudden aftershock. You suddenly, all of your friends and family that you were very close to were no longer very close to you.

In cases like the group that you and I left, there's a deep level of shunning. And that may be physical shunning. Maybe you can't go around. on them, but in many cases it is just an emotional shunning. There's this emotional wall that is put up between you and the family member who's still in the cult. And this is unexpected.

So people suddenly come to terms with, I've just lost everything. What do I do? That aftershock can place people into this dark place you're describing. They're basically they're forced into the dark place. And it's very difficult for people to rise out of it.

So I think it would be good to talk through recognizing what that dark place looks like, especially for people who have left these cult groups. Well, the strongest thing about leaving it in the region that you didn't, you know, as you said, I expect that a lot of people go, oh, wow, we never know. So let's go. But that doesn't happen because so much of their identity is invested into the group. And in fact, I saw someone post on Facebook today about one of those groups is that this person was saying people ask me why I stay when it's so crazy. But I can call anybody and get

them to come over and fix my whatever. I can get help with whatever I can get money if I need it. So this person saw the group as a little bit like problematic, but the benefits of having that network and that sense of belonging was worth more worth putting up with the craziness of the cult. So I think that people really, really value belonging and have an sense that they matter and that people have people accept them and love them and care about them. Even if that love and care is completely contingent upon your membership, I'll give you

another example. I was recently looking at an article on membership in a criminal motorcycle game. And this former member of this called one for centers, guys that are criminal motorcycle games. And he was talking about when how much there they were brothers and had everybody's back and I love you. It was very, very much a sense of belonging when he was in that particular motorcycle club. But once he decided he didn't want the criminal lifestyle.

anymore and he took off his vest which is called a cut and put that down and left the motorcycle club that they wanted nothing to do with him even though they proclaimed that they were his brothers and they had his back for life. He found out real quick that that was not the case that it was completely dependent upon his membership and participation in the criminal biker gang that he remained accepted once he put it down and stopped being in that control group because that's what it is a control group. He was chumped exactly as you said and so even though

this wasn't a religious call it's absolutely similar characteristics you either do what we say or will show you it's very similar characteristics just a criminal biker gang. It's odd to me how many different types of groups are so similar in structure to what we left. When you think of the and I'm wanting to mention the names of these biker groups but you've watched movies about these biker groups and you've seen the structure the internal structure of how they work and especially when somebody leaves all the bikers you know in the movies they come after them but you don't

really recognize that what they're describing in the movies and the television shows it's actually the framework of the cult mindset that these religious groups are built upon. So like I said when I left it was it was quite a shell shock and the the next step that happens after you go through that crisis and everybody has broken you down you suddenly yourself you have an identity crisis.

Your identity has now collapsed you recognize that what you had as an identity was the cult identity and who am I what what do I what do I see myself as how do I improve myself now that I'm no longer part of this who am what is my personality to be there there's so many questions you're filled with and part of that eventually will trigger what is considered complex trauma CPTSD there are different phrases that are now also used called PTSD is another phrase but all of these contribute to going to this dark place. Well it's really important that when somebody comes

out of such an organization that they seek mental health systems because it's very difficult to figure out who you are and what your purpose in life is while you're suffering PTSD or whatever trauma was fostered upon you by the group as you know we talked before in other circumstances right when we come out of the group there's a lot of anger and frustration a lot of emotionality around what the group did to the individual in case this case to you and me, it's very difficult to figure out who we are when we're that upset and so

it's important to with the help of mental health professionals to get to calmer waters before we start making any big decisions about who we are and where we need to live and what we need to be doing for a living.

It's a lot, a lot to work through and it takes time because people that are coming out of cults didn't get in that state of mind overnight. Often they were either raised in it or came to it as an adult, but they've been in it for some time and so they have a cult mindset and so to get out of that takes time and it takes mental health counseling and so finding it and even just finding a appropriate provider who understands that whole world which a lot of people aren't exposed to the whole world and so they can't relate to it, they don't really fully understand it so you have to be

careful in your selection of a mental health provider when you're coming out of cult too. Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation?

You can learn this and more on William Brannum Historical Research's website, William-Brannum.org. On the book's page of the website you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Steven Montgomery, John McKinnon and others with links to the paper, audio and digital versions of each book.

You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top and as always be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching.

On behalf of William Brannum Historical Research we want to thank you for your support. When you leave a cult and you've left this environment like you've just described where I can go to get a rougher if I need a rougher or an electrician, I know people who are like this, they will only use the cult-approved vendors whenever they're in this mindset.

Once you leave that the, along with the mental health providers if you need them, is building a strong community and waiting through that when you're in a dark place is very difficult. Like I said, I experienced a lot of what we're talking about here and when you're in the dark place you really don't want to build a community because your self-worth is gone, your self-value is gone, why would I want to build a community, I'm not...

worth it to the people who I'm building it with. And so you enter in this dark place, this like this vicious cycle that keeps you in the dark place. But as soon as you can break free from that mindset and start building a safe community, that's where your rebuilding of your life happens.

And I focus on the word safe because I have seen people who rebuild communities that ironically are far worse than the cult that they escaped because not everybody who you're around after leaving is a safe person.

So you have to build a safe environment. What is your advice to building the post cult environment? I think you made a really good point there, John. Social support is incredibly important. And you have to build social support with people that you can trust.

And that necessarily would guide somebody to make social connections with people that are not associated with the cult. It's really important that you not keep those old ties as far as rebuilding your social network.

It's not to say that you have to cut off religion in any way in your life. You have to obviously use critical thinking about what's in it for this person? Why are they doing this for me?

Are they doing it out of the goodness in our, or are they just a friend of the extended family?

Social support is crucial, but you've got to be judicious in applying that application to allow people inside. That's going to take time and you've got to be patient. But completely divorcing yourself from the cult in Florence is going to be a crucial part of rebuilding your network.

And the trauma that exists after leaving, are there any tools we've talked about the PTSD before in some of the past podcasts that we've done? But are there any tools or development strategies, mental health development strategies that you would recommend for somebody who's in the dark place?

Well, beginning with reaching out for mental health professionals' assistance, then taking care of yourself physically. A lot of times, cults are not into physical health as much and exercise and eating healthy. There's a real connection between regular exercise and feeling less depressed.

Often when I've got a client who's suffering depression, I ask him, are they exercising or are they getting out? How are they eating? limiting alcohol, limiting exposure to medications unless, you know, they have to have them because sometimes people take medications that's a coping mechanism rather than that they actually need the medication for whatever.

So getting, taking care of themselves physically is an important element because when a person begins to see after, look after their own physical health, it actually boosts their self-esteem. That's why people will come in, you know, you might see them and see a friend and they're like, so how are you doing?

Oh, I ran two miles this morning. There was a fantastic run or they worked out or they went for a long walk, whatever it was that they did. You can tell that they feel good about that they did that for themselves. It's self-care and it's self-love and it's self-value-y.

So getting mental health, help starting to take care of yourself physically and starting to only expose yourself to environments that are positive. Not allowing people in your life who take from you, who are negative influences, Debbie or Donnie Downers, right?

People who have negative outlooks on life, don't allow them in your life. Don't talk to them, don't be around them, don't be a dude with them. Only surround yourself with people who are positive and uplifting and they're not draining you, they're supporting you.

These are some of the foundations of getting your grip, re-gripping your new life that you lost. One thing I've noticed is whenever people leave, even the people I'm describing who are in the dark place, one thing that really helped them is becoming part of a network of people who are just like them, who have also escaped the group.

Once you build these, it's basically building survivor stories. You have people who are talking about how they survived and their situation was, they thought it was a situation they could never break through but they finally did.

So they're a survivor of the cult and the cult trauma. And what I have found that helps the most, once you've been in one of these groups and you try to enter into the quote unquote real world, you begin to think, well, these people aren't going to understand me. I came from this cult world. Now I'm in this real world and you start to see yourself different. You think it's a whole new world.

I use the air quotes around real world because it's still the same world. You were just in a cult mindset that had an alternate indoctrinated alternate reality basically. So sharing the survivor stories I think is key to breaking through.

and escaping the mindset that your self-worth and your self-value is limited. Well, that's absolutely true. And once again, your example cuts across lines. People that were, it's called trauma body. People that have been through shared trauma experiences have a particular bond after they lead that environment. This is true of military, law enforcement, medical, you got paramedics, you know, somebody was, they're talking to somebody who's also a paramedic that they don't know. They have an immediate trauma bond with that person because we'd travel the same road. We get each other in a way that nobody else can.

And so, in a cold and outside of a cold, when you got trauma, high trauma environments, you're going to get that trauma body. And it's invaluable. You see people, you know,

from trauma for a responder type environments or military environments, you see them having their unions years and years later because they had trauma bond. Even though they're not related at all, physically, maybe they didn't even know the person outside of the trauma body.

So, you're 100% right John, the trauma bond is real and absolutely can have a very healing effect on the recovery process because it's a way of a sounding, I'm not crazy, you're not crazy, that was nuts, right? And instead of saying, I was wrong, maybe I overdressed them, maybe I was wrong.

You got somebody else to say, no dude, that was crazy. What we went through should have never happened. And so, you got validation soundboarding. And that's how we find our level as humans by soundboarding off of other humans. So, after you've left the group, you've gone through the trauma, you've started to experience the neglect that you experienced from family members, from cold members, and you start to cope with all of the things that we've talked about. There's another healthy part of this to overcoming this dark place mindset. And that is, you probably have a better

phrase for what I'm describing, but this is essentially what I would call thought reform. You had a way of thinking when you're in the cult and that way of thinking was very negative. I'll never forget the conversation I had just not two months after leaving with another person who was in the same high demand group you and I were in. And I had known that they had left for some time, but as I have a conversation with them, they said, you know, one of the reasons I left is because they were just so filled with negative.

You could not be around them, but what they were negative against somebody else, somebody who wasn't part of the group. And they said, I'm just not like this. I like people. I don't like to be condemning of others.

And that's just one attribute of the way of thinking, but the cult indoctrination gives you a way of thinking that is unhealthy, very unhealthy. And so you have to teach yourself ways to think that are healthy. What do you recommend for this?

That's a really excellent point, John. In my therapeutic practice, I often have people that have very negative self-talk. And they say many things to themselves inside their head. They're very negative about their future accomplishments, with their very negative about their past behaviors.

They're very down on themselves, and usually control groups contribute to that negative self-talk. Because the control group is very condemnatory of probably your natural impulses as a human being and your natural needs and wants, versus the control group needs and wants.

And so people will develop a negative mindset and talk negatively to themselves and negatively to other people, just as you described. So what I do is tell people to become self-aware of their self-talk. It's called self-talk awareness.

And so what are you saying to yourself? Are you being kind and uplifting? Are you being positive? Or are you running yourself down and calling yourself a loser? Are you saying what an idiot you are and how you're stupid and you'll never mount anything?

Because a lot of times these are simple reflections of what the control group told them. And they're repeating in the side of their head, which is like allowing the control group to live rent-free inside your head.

And so you want to be self-talk aware, meaning only allow yourself to say kind things to yourself and uplifting things to yourself, loving things. I say, I encourage them to become their own best friend. I said, if you have a best friend who's gone through a hard time in their life, would you talk down to them and tell them how stupid they are, what an idiot they are?

You can't believe you're their friend? No, you would say kind things, uplifting things, how smart they are, how able to, how they've been through a lot of stuff and overcome a lot of stuff.

And they'll overcome this too and be very positive. So rather than talk badly to yourself inside your head, you want to become your own best friend. Paul kindly to yourself. Support yourself. Be positive about the future. Don't waste your time ruminating about the mistakes of the past. Don't waste your time projecting to dark futures.

Usually the present that is pretty decent, we've got refag, we're clothed, we've got air conditioning and transportation and stuff going on. So might as well think positively about the future and take positive lessons from the past, rather than bring ourselves down.

Another thing that often happens is people from cold groups or in people in general, it's not mental health. They worry about things that are outside their control

and a lot of that wraps around what other people think of them and that's especially true in the cold groups. And so we don't control what other people think of us. And so we have to focus only on things that are in our control because worrying about something that's out of our control such as what other people think of us, such as what's going to happen, is my ball's going to fire me.

Does this person work like me or not? There's a lot of things that can increase anxiety worrying about things that's outside of a person's control. So it's not mentally healthy to focus on things that are not in our control.

So always ask yourself, is the thing I'm frustrated about, whether somebody likes me, whether someone's going to happen in the future or these things that are in our control? If it's in your control, fix it with one, but most of the time the answer's gonna be, no, it's not in my control.

And so when I immediately stop thinking about that, turn and focus on something that is in your control.

There's a prayer actually that's not, not, you know, denomination-specific, it's often used in AA meetings and has been for many years, called the serenity prayer. And the serenity prayer goes, God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, stuff that's out of my control.

Curves to change the things I can, stuff that's in my control. And the wisdom to know the difference. And that's a really good written definition of having an internal focus on control. Because at the end of the day, we can only control what we control.

We do have quite a few things we do control, but there's a vast majority of things that humans waste their time and energy freshly in the bound that's not in our control. This is really important to me in working with people who have left the cult.

Once you're in the group, even if you've never been in one of these groups, say you're just a family member and you see a family member who has escaped one of these. And you start seeing that they just become different.

They become just a little bit off. There are warning signs that people who are with these former cult members and even the cult members that they're going into this dark place, and I think it'd be good to at least mention what these symptoms look like so that other people, if you see somebody like this, they probably need some help. And not just encouragement, this is a dangerous thing we're talking about. So I could go through the list that I have, and you probably have a better list, but there's this intense guilt that seems to come on people whenever they're getting in that dark place.

And it's a self-directed guilt. Even though they escaped a cult, and a lot of the blame could be placed on the cult and the cult leader, they start to feel inwardly like it's their fault. They did something wrong, you know. There's all of these different signs.

What would you say are the top signs to look for? Depression, right off the bat, if somebody seems depressed, they probably are. And talking to them about, how are you feeling reaching out to them? People seeming listless without motivation. Not enthusiastic or excited about anything. Just want to sit, not talk, not engaged. They're not motivated, hey, I'm going here, I'm going to do this. And normal people talk about their future plans. They don't have any future plans. If they're giving away their personal property, this is a watch. I won't need this anymore. And I just don't think

that I've got much purpose. The act of expressing helplessness and hopelessness, but especially giving away personal items. And if you're talking to somebody who's depressed and acting kind of blissfully, kind of giving away their goods or property, talk to the other friends, because often people that are in that dark state will share a little bit with this friend and a little bit with this friend and a little bit with another friend. So if you know there are other friends, talk to them about your concerns about, Billy seems really awfully, have you talked to him?

What did he tell you? And the tool, and you can start putting things together. But I would say that

the main thing is depression, blisslessness, and especially giving property away. Those are humongous red flags. And sometimes they'll tell you, I'm thinking of hurting myself. They'll come out and say it. So don't be afraid to address them. Don't be afraid to get them help.

And don't be afraid to make them mad by getting them help. And they wind up getting big corrected or whatever. They're like, who could you do to me? Well, you're alive, right? Now, you can make choices. But I can't help you if you're not here on earth anymore. It's a really, really, really important science. So the most important part of this podcast, I think, is the need for suicide prevention and what to do to prevent something from happening. Like I said, when people go through this dark place and they're going through all of these stages and their self-esteem, their self-worth, their self-value is at its

rock bottom, there becomes a time when it is dangerous and there is a need to prevent something from happening. What can people do to prevent this? There are resources all over the place and you can simply make an eye on one call. A lot of communities have 2-1-1 information centers where you can get tapped in to help lines. You can receive mental health assistance immediately on the phone. You can be referred to mental health assistance. There's even online programs where you can go texting back and forth with a mental health professional. The resources, the phone numbers and the online resources as well as the in-person resources are astronomical.

And so if anybody's in a bad place and wondering if hurting themselves or if they have a friend who's wanting about that, reach out, do not sit silent and don't be afraid to approach somebody. If you think they're in this state, ask them how they're doing, ask them what you can do.

People that are in the hopeless and hopeless state usually desperately want to talk to somebody about it. They're hurting, they're in pain, they feel alone. And so they're happy to talk to somebody about it. And if you have somebody there, just stay with them and get on the phone and get help. You can call law enforcement or mental health professions to your location to do an assessment of the person or you can do assessment of yourself. People can go to the district to a hospital. What can hospitals say? I'm thinking of hurting myself. As a retired law

enforcement officer, I had people walk up to me and say, Deputy, I'm thinking of hurting myself. Can you please help me? And so I would take them what's called a crisis center or to a hospital if they had substance abuse issues or something going on at the time. Every state has laws that protect those that are thinking of self harm. And here in Florida, it's called a Baker Act, but every state has laws where you can turn yourself in and get help or you can turn yourself in to a medical professional or a law enforcement officer and get help immediately. Like,

turn around, search God, you know, put him in my car, bring him down to the crisis. That's how simple it was. And so the guy got the hopes that he needed a lot of times people that are living on the street or were very street adjacent you might say are often depressed and there's often substance abuse issues involved and financial stress involved and a lot of lack of social supports all those things together go lead somebody down a very dark path and so to answer your question specifically the person who's in need please reach out you can literally google it on your phone

and you will immediately have phone numbers and access to help you can call law enforcement you can go to a medical facility they will get you help because it's on them liability wise if they refuse you help and you you know you will hurt yourself from they refuse to help so they will get you help so I strongly strongly encourage anybody struggling with this reach out absolutely and the normalization of professional help when you're in these groups especially the one we came from therapy of any kind is a lack of faith and that's just I mean even for me still today

I no longer believe this I no longer think this way but in the back of my mind that will always be there because it was programmed for 37 years that therapy is a lack of faith but it is not a lack of faith so I think normalizing the normalizing mental health and normalizing the mental health profession if you are working with one of the people who is a survivor is very important so that they can get the help if they need it so there there's a lot we could discuss on that maybe that will be a podcast for the next time thank you so much for doing this but I'm glad you're doing

guys work keep it up well thank you so much I'm going to put the link to the documentary in the description of the YouTube video if you're watching it on YouTube or the podcast on Spotify etc so if you want to check out the documentary that Jesse is in you can see it from the link that I'll put into the description and hopefully we have given people the tools that can help them if they're in this dark place and if they feel their self-value or the self-worth is at rock bottom they know how to how to get out of it how to how to cope with it and if somebody is watching who knows somebody

who's in this position maybe we've opened their eyes that they should go help hope this individual get help if they need it so very glad that you did this and if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information you can check us out on the web you can find us at william-branam.org for more about the dark side of the new apostolic reformation you can read weaponized religion from Christian identity to the NAR Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Arbor.

Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Arbor. Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Arbor.