Hebrew Roots, Latter Rain, and the Search for the Original Church

Music Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Brandham Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Brandham Historical Research at William-brandham.org, and with me I have my very special guests, Kevin and Barb Sisti, the host of Pellegrino Walk.

Kevin, Barb, it's good to have you back. I was just thinking the other day I needed to bring you guys back and get caught up on everything that you're digging into. Ironically, I find you're digging into many of the things that I'm digging into, so it's very interesting conversation to talk about the crossing of paths.

But to give the audience a background, I recently had a guest on who was talking about her experience in Hebrew roots. And this is something that, as you're investigating this mess that we came from, all of these different trails of history, there are rabbit trails that you can go down, where you find the weirdest, insanely crazy, non-gospel doctrines that somehow plagued all of these different movements, and yet they cross-pollinated into the main core of Pentecostalism and charismatic movement, et cetera.

One of those is Hebrew roots, and I can't say from my research that Hebrew roots directly affected Pentecostalism, but what I can say is, when you take a layer off of that onion and you go back to Tross Fox Parham, you find that Parham is into British Israelism, you find that Hebrew roots spun off of this weird British Israelism mess, and so they both share a same grandfather, and many of the ideas cross-pollinated.

And anyway, with that, I'll let you introduce it, but there's so much to talk about. Yeah, there's so much to talk about, John. It's interesting that we're on the same kind of trail here, but when I originally reached out to you, this is, I don't know, a couple, well, maybe a year before we even started the channel, I remember I was, we were in the desert, and we were struggling, we were coming out of IHOPKC, and we were dealing with Dominion, like, okay, they're talking about a billion soul harvest.

We don't see the billion soul harvest in scripture, so what's it all about? And so I remember emailing you, and I was like, okay, I've taken Dominion back to like Rush Durni and the reconstructionist, but how far back does it go?

And so it's interesting when you're talking about Hebrew roots, and we're talking about these streams of Dominion in the church. Barbara and I have, uh, prayerfully decided to visit... Spain and Portugal in the fall and Document some of these places some of the places where the lights Templar were and they walked and and some of the historical places that really brought this idea of Dominion to To the church Combine that of course with with Hebrew roots, British Israelism, all the things coming out of the latter rain I don't know it's just this big bullet twine for me now. So it's it's like I can go

And I'm sure you're much better at this than I am, but I could go in any direction at any time and and find those rabbit trails now But but that's what we're doing and then we'll visit the south of France as well We're we're we're going to look at some of the catalytic Influences in France how that grew throughout the year and something that I've been dealing with in a series that we've been doing Called noble lies and that's that's looking at Freedom 250 and rededicate 250 where all these concepts Are right on the stage in front of us and Hebrew roots and it involved with that as well

So yeah, so we're we're definitely on the trail or trails and sun trails and all the things I have a trousers probably accurate Trying to discern where God is moving with us because there are a lot of trails you can follow and we just Our our goal and heart is always to point people back to Jesus of the Bible and so Some of that stuff takes us closer and some of us takes us farther. So Sometimes it's a hit and miss approach, but we think we're we're doing some some things that are really necessary right now

And we're learning a lot um as we go because it's It's pretty involved and it's You know when you said the Cross-pollination John in the beginning it's really interesting I used to hear that term a lot and I hop KC That they wanted to cross-pollinate with the other ministries and bring in all this stuff I'm a good way, but like and so when you said that I was like oh wow I haven't heard that word quite a while But but it's interesting because this is the fruit of that. I really think so yeah Well, and there's another concept that I'm

Starting to investigate how and why and it's in podcasts that I've already recorded that have not yet been released So you haven't heard these but I'm looking at specifically When you have all of these movements that spin off of the main trunk of the core of Pentecostalism Whenever a movement spins off they don't spend off and say we're just going to disregard everything in the Bible What they do is they build a movement based off of some doctrine that they believe to be in the Bible and yes Many of them are in error, but the error is that they don't fully understand and grasp the concepts that are presented in the Bible

And what I've learned is this Whenever this happens there will be core concepts within that structure of doctrine that they're separating for, that you can find a Bible verse that loosely fits what they're saying.

But all of the details that they give to back up the doctrine, they're all extra biblical. And so you can't find the details. And when they're preaching, I grew up with this too. When they're preaching, they will say, why can't the people see it?

It's right here, plain in the Bible. And they're talking about that core foundation. They're not talking about all of the extra biblical details that they've given. So these movements spin off and they get these vast, crazy details.

And the thing that drove me there essentially was, I was looking at the deliverance ministry that I grew up in. And we, I have the advantage because we were in a movement that was literally static from 1947 and 1965.

We're hearing those sermons over and over again. So my mind was stuck in the 50s and 60s. Well, that version of deliverance does not match the spiritual warfare, the spiritual mapping. All of the different weirdness that you see today, they're adding all of these details on top of the deliverance.

And the deliverance version that I had was adding details on top of biblical deliverance. There is a precedent for biblical deliverance, but there isn't for spiritual mapping and demons that are territorial demons and all of this weird stuff.

So in the details lies the error, but in the core concept, there are problems with the way they interpret it. And what I've learned as it relates to Hebrew roots is there was that core concept of British Israelism that was in the error.

It was loosely based off of specific things they read in the Bible. But then because of the error, all of the details spun off all of these different cults. Yeah, exactly. And I do know, John, just from my research, Hebrew roots has grown kind of next to Latter-Rain, adjacent to it, and kind of mixed with it from what I understand.

I believe Gwen Shaw was heavily involved in Hebrew roots in Israel. Derek Prince kind of slides into this a little bit, but I think it did kind of grow up next to it. And it's so hard when I'm trying to look at all this stuff, I always have to keep an open mind, because it's so hard to determine theologies of individuals and whether they're in or out or in Jason or whatever the nuance, especially today, of belief is just incredible out there.

Even if you talk about the NAR proper, there's like this spectrum of belief in the NAR. So it's interesting when you're looking back to Hebrew roots and saying, one of the things that, kind of, I always say this part, but kind of stuck in my crawl from the first time I was looking at Hebrew roots and the one new man, kind of all that coming together, was...

this, this idea of why is, why is this false N.A.R. Church embracing Jewish terms, uh, Jewish feasts, uh, names, so on and so forth. And, and everything Jewish. And I was like, why, why is that? It's, there's got to be something to that. And the more I looked into Hebrew roots, I started to understand that they're really going back. They're using the, the Old Testament a lot for whatever justification they want to place on, on the New Testament sometimes, but as well going back to, uh, really some of the Old Testament customs back to Judaism

to a certain extent. And even when you consider like things like in the N.A.R. where we're here of David's tabernacle or the presence coming back to the temple and all this, again, an Old Testament concept, um, and, and sounds good, but, but the Holy Spirit has already been given at Pentecost, so.

Well, and they give, um, like you're talking about, it, it's a cherry-picked scripture, uh, out of context that is usually the starting point or, or there's a concept that they've interpreted and they've determined and they've created that they go back in the layover scripture. I remember when we talked to Dean Briggs that time, he kept talking about contending prayer is biblical. And I said, I don't see that phrase anywhere in the Bible. He's like, oh, contending prayer, it has to be, it's very different. Daniel, Daniel's a contending prayer. I'm like, you, you can call it that,

all you want. Daniel was praying to God and he had a prayer because he was a faithful, he wanted to be in relationship with the Lord. Daniel wasn't, though, advocating contending prayer and telling us this is how you pray and he wasn't doing a blueprint and he was, he was praying to the God of the universe because he was repenting and asking for forgiveness for what they did in, in Daniel 9.

It's, it's not an instance of contending prayer, um, and we, we do the format and it's, it's actually the story of God. And so we need to be very, very careful how we handle it because it's living and active and and God is still speaking through it through his, through his spirit. And so some of this stuff that we're doing to justify, you know, these terms and the way we do things, especially in the NAR is just, it's egregious and it's, it's beyond extra biblical. It's, it's twisting it and it's turning into something else entirely. Absolutely. I don't envy you guys.

And I'm going to say that openly because I began my journey in much the same way as you. I started theologically. I wanted to understand what is this mess, theologically. And I went down that path probably for five years and as you notice my website and the podcast, everything now is more focused on history than it is.

Theology, this is the reason I came to terms with the fact that it was the equivalent of alphabet soup. It was theology alphabet soup, picture an entire set of encyclopedias and every single word in there is in a bowl of soup and you got to piece it all together and figure out what all this mess is.

You have theologies that are cross-pollinated, theologies that are descended from grandparents and great grandparents and so on. Theologies from politics, from movements, from all of these different things. And I finally decided I'll never wait through that mess. It would take me the rest of my life to even get the first volume of the encyclopedia.

So I started instead with movements and history. And one of the things that I found, I mentioned British-Israelism, that's a key component. But remember, it is an alphabet soup, so you have different components.

British-Israelism mixed with restorationism. So when you combine these two things, British-Israelism says we are the descendants of the lost ten tribes of Israel and that's a new concept. Now we've created a new movement.

Now restorationism teaches we have a church that is an heir, we must restore the church. And we have British-Israelism. When those two mix, we're restoring it to Israel. So you go back and you read the Old Testament. How do I bring in the feasts?

How do I bring in the tabernacle? How do I do all of these things that Israel did? And at its core, that's really what Laterane was. Remember, Feast of Tabernacles was a book written in the Laterane movement.

And that was written explicitly to restore the manifested sons of God, Joel's army. Everything that I hop KC stood for. Well, that comes from the merger of those two movements. Whenever you try to restore the church, we must restore the feasts and when we restore the feasts, then we will bring down heaven.

The problem is, that's not what the gospel says. Jesus will return. It's not something that you do. It's something that he has already done and he will return. They flip the gospel on its head because to restore the church in the way that they put the format, it's literally back to the Old Covenant and the entire New Covenant is for nothing.

Yeah, absolutely, John. We've been... I've got a whole series right now that we've started called to Kunalam, where we're dealing with, of course, the Jewish phrase, meaning the restoration of creation, technically the universe, right?

But amazing, there was a prophecy from the Zohar. And we've been getting into this a little bit, but the prophecy was basically that the wisdom from above would meet the well springs below. And it's really interesting, I've been tracing the restoration movements beginning stone camel, about the 1820s, and really ramping up towards 1840, and then moving into the holiness movement, moving into the Pentecostal movement, and restoring, restoring, restoring, like a big snowball that started...

at the beginning, and it's just picking up everything in its way, and it's not really restoring anything what it's doing is it's Pickeren's esoteric diatrons, diatrons from all kinds of sources, and bringing them in, and I think personally that what we're looking at, the huge problem out there, is this restoration movement.

I think it's much bigger than the NAR. I think its threads are all over the world, and individual theologies, and movement theologies, and all the things, but we've been tracing this. It's really, really interesting, and the correlation to Jewish mysticism, to Kunalam, restoration, restoration movement.

There's a lot of parallels in both of those. Right. It is effectively erasing the need for the cross, why Jesus coming, mattered entirely, and Jesus came to fulfill the law on the prophets, that's what he said, and so, Kevin says it's all the time, we don't have to restore anything, nothing's missing.

The gifts have been there, the things have been there, and so many of these movements and camps are like, we have to restore this, we have to restore the fivefold ministry, we have to restore the this and that, and it's never been gone.

It's been fulfilled in Christ, and there are some things that have always been confusing to me, and as we've been studying, I'm like, okay, that makes sense, because I was like, I don't understand, you know, in the prayer room, and I have KC for Sukkot, they're putting up a tabernacle, they're building one, and I understood that we had messianic believers, and I always attributed it to, okay, we're honoring other people's traditions and history, where they came from as Jewish people, fair enough, messianic believers, but increasingly, I'm like, I don't really think that's what it was about,

like I don't think that all these feasts, and it's not to honor and to remember Israel and honor, you know, that tradition, as much as it's now we're trying to incorporate it, and I went to an event, years right when I got to IHOP, and somebody had asked me if I knew who Joel Richardson was, I said, never heard of him, oh, he's speaking, we have to go, and it was this big, it was called a convocation, well, we just got a comment from somebody, he's like, have you seen this convocation in Kansas City, and so that's

interesting, I think I actually went to one of those, I don't know, five or six years ago, and, but it was about, we must use the Hebrew Bible, we must restore the feasts, we must use the Israel's calendar, and it, it wasn't a group of messianic believers, it was a group of Gentiles who were saved.

and who were trying to then lay over what Jesus did with things from the Old Testament. None of the people in this room, I'm sure there was a handful or whatever, are actually have Jewish, like, their historically, genetically, from, you know, Jewish people, from Israel.

I don't understand why this would be, why do I need to, I don't understand that. And I wasn't trying to be disrespectful. I'm like, I know, I really don't understand why, I don't get that. I don't understand it. And now I'm starting to understand it differently, and it's much more alarming than I knew at the time, frankly.

Well, and it goes back to what I said about the history. So a lot of these errors that you find are from movements that went into error. And here's the problem that I found. It makes it very difficult when you consider this. Most historians and most theologians who study the movements that went into error, study them at the point of their climax of error. So here's a movement, they've went totally off the rails, and here's what they believe, and we disagree with what they believe. But what about the beginning, when they began to branch off of the movement?

You had men and women working with men and women who stayed in the core of Christianity, who were at one time working hand in hand, but their minds weren't in the same place. They weren't aligned. And one half, the half that went off into error, they start bringing in these extra biblical details to support their theme. And that theme is actually aligned with, in some ways, the core of Christianity. So the other person or people, they don't really catch it that their heads are not aligned. Well, over time, this division grows until they split off into a movement,

but at that point in which they split off, they have already infected the core of Christianity, because their extrabiblical ideas are now not just for the people who are teaching about, the people who are listening, they've caught on to some of this stuff, and their heads may go in the wrong place, and they may eventually grow up and be a pastor or an elder or a teacher. And so they're in the wrong place in the core of Christianity, and eventually that may spin off into another movement. So you've got movement, spinning off movements, and children of movements, children of

the core of Christianity, who will later spin off movements. And that is almost fully untapped, as far as studying in theology. You don't really study that part of it, because quite frankly, it's just simply too difficult. That's why whenever I'm doing the connections historically, some of the connections that I have on the website aren't even really destructive, but they're a bridge between the core of Christianity and the destructive groups. And if you understand all of those bridges, you can maybe not identify all of the cross-pollination, but you can see how it might have cross-pollinated. Yeah, absolutely. It's interesting, because

even the restoration movement, John, you know, here's the idea in the beginning, hey, let's let's restore... or the doctrine of the early church. And you look at that and you go, okay, well, let's do that.

That sounds great. And then as you move along throughout the years, you see the things that the Christian church has picked up from the restoration moment. But you also see the cults that were formed from it as well when you start thinking, okay, well, it's my job to restore this.

And if we're going to restore it, then it must be our group that's good. And we're probably going to start a new group that everybody can join. Instead of saying, hey, let's get back to biblical Christianity, I, you know, our group is no different than anybody else's.

We don't have to restore everything. It's like I've been saying from the very beginning, Jesus died, He rose. He has provided salvation for us. If we will be reconciled to Him, He sent the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, okay?

We're pretty much done. You know, we don't need to restore anything. And so that's the big thing. I think this whole idea, every time I hear the word restoration, it's like bells and whistles go off and sirens and all the things.

It's just, it's an immediate trigger to understand why, why is the church talking about restoration so much? Why stuff in? And we've been going off in a direction into the extreme NAR, into a universal stream, the lady by the name of Nancy Cohen.

And some of her, where they take it, they're kind of ascension teachers. So they live in the heavenlies and they go up and down and all these things. You can too. Yeah, everybody can.

It's just like the Sephirothry in Kabbalah. You can ascend it. And so it just keeps getting more and more extreme and we keep adding things, saying that we're restoring Christianity, we're putting out a video where she calls it kosher Kabbalah.

I mean, that means it's okay. I guess Christians can practice Kabbalah now. It's in the church. So these are the things that I'm seeing, studying and looking at the restoration movement. And I am looking at it historically, but I'm looking at the theologies and the theologies are making me crazy and the history's making me crazy.

Yeah, years ago I went to Israel with a, there was 12 of us that went to Israel in Jordan for like five or six weeks. And I went, it was a teaching group with a Messianic Jewish group.

And then my friend and I were the only Christian Gentiles. And I was in a taxi and we were in a lot, a lot. And we were talking and I was with the rabbi and his wife that we're leading it.

And so my friend and I were in the back. the style for us were crammed in the back and I said to him, I said, you know, I'm on this trip or we're in Israel, we're in the land. I said, you know, everybody's trying, I kind of feel like everybody's talking like, like this is the the the pinnacle, you know, Christian is great and Jewish is great, but the the point of the triangle is is and that the messianic and and I was kind of laughing, but I was serious. I said, what do you think? I will never forget and I've talked

to him about it since then he goes, if God had wanted you to be a Jew, Jew, Jew, he goes, I don't allow people to be converted in my congregation on either side because God knew what he was doing and he he made who he made the way he made them and and so when I hear things like restoration the word that I have a problem with is revival, it makes me nuts. I'm like sometimes things should be dead. Nothing needs to be revived. Jesus is still on the throne. It's just confusing to me.

It's making up things to do so we feel important and special. I think that's true. And so, oh, I like your Tartus cup, but I, sorry, little side, but I think that's the thing that is is, that's what it feels like to me is like we don't feel content allowing Jesus to be the savior.

So we have to figure out ways to help him out because we're bored with our role. So we're just going to create some stuff to make ourselves look like, you know, it's like busy work in high school when the teacher had a sub and they just gave you stuff because they didn't teach. That's what it feels like to me. I'm like, here's the thing. Jesus already did it and my job is to sit at his feet and and let the Holy Spirit make me in his likeness and God knows that's going to take my entire life and then some probably because God is kind. So if I die and I'm I'm I'm dead.

If Jesus has a return and it's another hundred years, let's pretend he's still making me into his likeness. Like that's how messed up I am. So it's like that. I know. And so I'm like, I don't need to have some like busy work and some extra homework sheets to do just so I feel important. I got enough going on just looking at the Lord, being in his word and, you know, through his spirit teach me about his fruit and what is what he's like. And that's that's enough. That's enough activity for us. Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression

of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new Apostolic Reformation? You can learn this and more on William Brannum Historical Research's website, William-Brannum.org. On the book's page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen McGo- Humory, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.

You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top.

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As both of you know, I've been studying Chuck Smith, the Jesus movement, all of this explosion into what later became the charismatic movement. And there's actually multiple reasons why, but one of them actually goes back to the Hebrew Roots thing.

So we mentioned Laterane has these huge intersections with Hebrew Roots. They're trying to say and trying to establish the fact that they believe that the mainstream churches have grown apostates and that they have gone off into error.

They're too complicated. We need something simpler. We need something that goes back to the roots. And they weren't saying Hebrew Roots in Laterane, but there were cross-pollination doctrines flowing through it. And so there was this compatibility for anybody who's seeking simplicity in the gospel.

In fact, that was one of the themes that was often spoken in Brannumism as we must have the gospel in simplicity. And they would argue that the mainstream churches did not have this. The interesting part of that, if you take the theological study, they so far overcomplicated the gospel that nobody knew what it was in the movement.

But then comes along the Jesus movement at its birth. You had all of these young Christians who they were starting to reject institutional Christianity for looking for something simpler. They wanted something that was more biblical, more authentic, more like the book of Acts, something they could engage with and feel like they were a part of.

And it's not that they were in error. They were truly seeking something that was going to be more fulfilling. Well, what more fulfilling than this group of people who tells you, yes, all of these institutional churches are in error come to us and we will do it.

And that's really where this intersection becomes critical to understand, because all of the ideas that some of which came from Hebrew roots, some from restorationism, British Israelism, Christian identity, all of this starts to invade the minds of the young people in the Jesus movement.

And when this happens, there's this thing that happens in Pentecostal Charismatic movement. I don't know if you picked up on this one yet. But the speaker often feeds on what the audience wants to hear.

So when you have this vast audience that is really looking for you to talk more about this simple thing and how to come out of the churches, etc., they're going to start tailoring their sermons to fit this because it's more appealing.

So there's this cycle that starts happening. between the crowd and the speaker. Well, it spins out of control if you're talking about doctrines that have extra biblical details. Because now I want to give more details. The itching here is want to hear more and more and more. And so while mainstream Christianity kind of stayed grounded with, here's the gospel, Jesus came, he died. It's very simple. Anybody can believe it and understand it. To yes, they have that, but we need to move beyond this. We can be part of it. We can be active because we have all the details of the gospel that the mainstream churches don't have.

So that intersection just blossomed into error. Yeah, it's interesting. Like, who raises up, who, right? Is it the is it the itching years of the people that's raising up teachers? I guess that's what the Bible says. So I think that's that's accurate, completely correct. I think as but considering Hebrew roots. And again, I haven't looked at the at the Jesus movement. I've been looking at it mostly near its inception. And I've been looking at it where it's in front of us right now. And especially coming out of IHOPKC and some of these movements. But is it just the NAR

emphasizing Jewish names and phrases and everything Jewish and the feasts and the showfars and all the things that we just blending it in or is it is it all Hebrew roots coming into it? These are the things that I'm grappling with right now. But but when you consider like IHOPKC that we came out of as I'm looking back at that and looking at the influence of possibly Hebrew roots and and again, Judaism coming in and being laid on top of the new covenant in the church. David's tabernacle, which is completely not biblical for today, was at the time. But for today, it's not

being embraced by IHOPKC throughout the prayer movements all over the world 24, 7 prayer, the IPC International Prayer Connect. All the prayer movements all over the world. This this blended almost the Judaism, so to speak, understanding the capitalistic and inroads into this and it's just it's overwhelming when you when you look at it and again I'm looking at it today I'm looking at it back then I haven't looked at it in the middle. It's just overwhelming to see you know in an end time scenario as we're moving forward what this could actually do. It's it's dangerous beyond

and it's a very western idea too you know it's it's the more is better thing and we have more to do we have more and and we're gonna dig deeper and we're gonna look you know if you pray for two hours we're gonna pray for four hours and we're gonna do you know I remember you know as I was talking to Kevin I remember or Mike Bickle one time, because we've been talking a lot about finishing well, about running the race in such a way to finish it, and to win it, I'm sorry, not just finish

it, to win it. And so I remember Mike Bickle on stage, regarding Paul Kane at one point, regarding Bob Jones at one point, regarding William Brannum. And every, you know, and I remember him talking about William Brannum, saying that William Brannum was the perhaps the best prophet of the, of the 20th century, he just didn't finish well.

And this was the thing. They just didn't finish well. And I'm like, okay, but that's interesting, because in the Bible, finishing matters. It's not how we start. It's what, it's how we finish. And I remember seeing a Chris Reed video where he actually went to William Brannum's house and doing, like, walking through the house, and he was giving, like, a, like, a narrative about, okay, we're in this room, and this is, and I didn't know who he was.

And this is before, for you and all the things that I, I kind of started to Google some of the people, and I was like, wait a second. What are we doing? And, you know, and that's something that we are so committed to in our marriage as individuals.

And, you know, we'll shut down YouTube and all the ministry tomorrow. If we go sideways in our own devotion to the Lord and, and running the race in such a way that we'll win it.

Again, it's not a works-based, works-driven, you know, that's one of the things that the Esther March thing, they had this big, they erected this altar on stage to Ishtar, right? Ishtar. Ishtar. Ishtar. Nice car.

Ishtar. And then they all took turns with mallets, destroying, I said, so let me get this straight. They erected the altar to Ishtar. They did it. They put it on the stage, and then they took it.

It's just all this stuff that, frankly, is offensive to me because it detracts that it's his story. It's about him through his spirit, you know, reflecting God the Father, the Creator of all. It's not our story.

It's not about me, it's not my adventure. And again, even with the Hebrew roots, it's still about God. It's not about returning to anything other than who is God through Jesus. It's not about recreating Pentecost, you know, and even Peter says, you know, I, with Joel Zarbe, you know, I was, I remember it, I helped, I turned to somebody, they were talking about Joel's army.

I'm like, Peter said, it's fulfilled today. He used that passage at Pentecost and says, this is being fulfilled today in your, in your viewing or listening. And so I'm like, so according to Peter, the pouring out of the, of the spirit and sons and daughters will prophesy, Peter said it happened.

So I'm like, I don't understand. The Joel's army and the the locus. I'm like, that's what it is. It's not positive. It's not. No, the locus time is no positive.

I don't know if either of you ever played with electric trains when you were a kid, but there was this electric track and then between the track was this little tiny piece of brass that you would connect the two pieces together. So the two electric tracks, what the rails would touch each other. And if you're missing one of those little pieces, the whole train would just fall off the track. It never would work. What I've learned is each one of these cross-pollinated doctrines of extra biblical details are required to connect the tracks together. So when Mike Bickle says William Brandham was a good man, but he went into error,

what he's essentially saying is our track requires that little piece that is William Brandham that bridges the lateral range movement to our movement. And you can go right down the tracks as far back as you want to go down the tracks and find the same kind of thing. The Jesus movement, for example, so I wasn't, I want to explain what I said a little bit earlier. I'm not saying the Jesus movement was filled with Hebrew roots, doctrines by no means, but Hebrew roots was just one of those little pieces in the track that bound it together. And if you take that piece out, the Jesus

movement looks entirely differently. If you, I've got to line up somewhere of all the different similarities I found, but things like rejection of the mainstream Christianity, that was part of lateral range that made it into somewhat into the Jesus movement. But go down the tracks further, you find strong Israel ties. And that's because of the British Israelism piece that's in the track.

In times expectations, you can go right down the track and you can find all the way back to Frank Sanford. They all ran to the rooftops and say, we know the exact second, Jesus is going to return. Well, that's a piece in the track. And if you follow that piece out, look at the number of people that have claimed they know the exact minute, hour, day, etc. of when the end is coming.

It's because that's part of that track. And they will all tell you, yes, that man win a stray. But what they won't say is we're going to remove that piece and replace it with the working track.

The tracks are broken. That's really the problem and what I'm trying to say here. When you examine the tracks and you understand that some of those tracks will just lead off of cliff. Well, do you really want that piece of track in your main body, in your line up of track for your train to go down? I don't. And so historically, I just started looking at those pieces. What are those intersection points? And which ones are valid and which ones are not? When you take the sum of all of the ones that went off into error, it gets a little bit scary because you wonder why

people continue and they don't go back and clean up the error. It's like they want to take the end result doctrine and say, we're going to fight tooth and nail to hold this thing that we have that is the result of all of this track.

we're not going to put peel the covers back and see what happened down the track back there. Yeah, and I think that happens all the time. I mean, this is what we were dealing with in the in the movements. This is what we we were going to individuals far before we we ever did YouTube.

And we're saying, why does it look like this? What what is going on? You know, why why does your why do the ends always justify the means? That's that's the big thing. What you were just saying, John, is this whole movement? Once the movement starts, the movement's more important than the individuals. We saw that at IHOP KC. That's why they didn't want to shut it down because it's about keeping the fire on the altar. And and but you see you see this in every particular whether it's a small church in the community. The entity itself becomes a thing and and I continue that and

and I think that's I think that's man. I think that's man's desires. It has nothing to do with the Lord has nothing to do with bringing the gospel. But we see often that these ends always justify the means and and let's just keep this real. It's possible. Turning no matter no matter how we do it.

Right. And it's it's a very interesting too because we've seen that from a corporate standpoint in how it looks corporately. And we would hear things like, well, that would mean that my entire 50 years of ministry was a sham. And we said so. And I'm like, okay, then yeah, be bold and say it was a sham and start a new like what precedent? How amazing would that be? But then we would hear about people's personal legacies and and leaving a legacy. And I'm like, when did that? That's such an American Western like, you know, and then like that. Didn't you didn't you die to that? Aren't you

made new in Christ? Are we new creations? Am I a bonds life to Jesus? And what does that really mean? Because it means that I have I have given up, you know, if my life is not my own. Like that's what it says. Let's let's play that out. If I'm supposed to deny myself, take up my cross.

There's no legacy in that. There's nothing about me in that at all. I've died. And I my life is not my own, you know, I even told Kevin, you know, I pray sometimes and ask God to kind of give me clarity on what's happening. And a lot of times I walk away feeling like, yeah, it's really none of my business. And I'm like, wait a second, my own life isn't my business. And it's like, yeah, my life's not my own anymore. So I, whatever God chooses to do with it, I trust in these perfectly good, perfectly kind, perfectly holy. So he's trustworthy, more so than I am in my flesh.

But it's still that reminder of like, this is not my life. It doesn't belong to me. So to preserve my legacy for my ministry. three and my children and my, you know, so I can be a hero of the faith and have a book.

It's so gross. It's really, really, really not biblical at all. Well, think about what you just said, because it actually proves the point we're trying to make in this entire podcast. It's all about the authority.

When you're talking about what you believe in the gospel, you're putting the authority in the hands of Jesus. And that's what the core of Christianity did. And think of the transition of how it got to where it is today.

It may have started out with something simple, and I don't know. We don't have recorded sermons or statements, but maybe somebody said something like this, I want to know more about Jesus. I want to know the Jewish background of Jesus.

Well, that can fit within mainstream Christianity. So two people can think they're aligned on this type of thing. Well, the person who's often left field may take it a step further. I really want to celebrate the Jewish biblical festivals, because Jesus was a Jew.

Well, that's the point where it starts to get questionable. Maybe they can still be in unison, maybe not. But then it goes on further. The church abandoned those practices in mainstream Christianity is wrong.

So now you're seeing a divergence in the tracks, right? And then it eventually turns out to Christianity became pagan. We need to re-evaluate the structure of Christianity. And in the Jewish customs, they had the high priest.

We need the same thing, but we are under a new covenant, so we're going to have a high apostle. And so they start to do this kind of thing. Well, eventually what happens is the authority transitions from Jesus down to the human, and then the human becomes hell-bent on control and starts controlling the crowd in terms into a mess that should never have been in the first place.

But it all came back with that little slight divergence from what two people believe and their heads weren't quite aligned. Oh, and then it goes so much further, right, John? So it starts out with that like expression.

And then as we move forward in restoration, we see out of the latter end, then all of a sudden you talk about authority, all of a sudden your manifest son, you're perfected. We have immortality, sometimes people are talking about that.

So they take it all to the extreme, and I think that's where man just goes with the whole thing. That's essentially what we're dealing with today with, with all the doctrine in front of us that it is a complete mess out there of theologies and thoughts and ideologies mixed with the political and all the things.

And we try to, we try to slice it up and dice it up and present it, but it just seems like as soon as we do, there's something else that appears that you just go, okay, well, that was yesterday and now it's now it's changed.

But yeah, that progression, and again, I called it a snowball that's picking up things along the way. But whatever it is, I think man is just suited for that. And then the entities that we create are so much more important than us personally.

And like Barb said, and I wanted to comment on that, when we were talking to these leaders, we were coming from the perspective of who cares what your ministry was. If you're seeing something that's off just personally, aren't you going to want to correct it on this side of death?

I mean, that's basically what we're saying. They were afraid. Don't you want to correct it here? Who cares about reputation? Who cares about followers? Yeah, whatever that may mean, if you correct it, maybe people will really appreciate that.

And certainly you'll be speaking the truth. So again, I think that's one of those things that we continue to struggle, because these people were important in our story, in our lives, and they're not around anymore.

And more importantly, they're important to millions of some of them, of other people, who are being deceived. And now, when at first you go in and think, well, maybe they don't understand. And maybe it's, but when you hear somebody go, oh, I understand I'm doing it on purpose, or oh, I understand, and there's too much at stake, then we were kind of going, wait.

I mean, I took for granted that most of them would be like, oh, my goodness. Wow, let's, what can we do? But it's funny, because when you're talking about it, I think about the 650 plus extra laws that the Pharisees had on top of what was biblical.

And I find that, and there's nothing new under the sun. People are people, right? So now the leaders in the Christian expression, they have all these extra things, like instead of fasting for this day, or fasting in your closet, you fast for 40 days.

And then you don't really tell anybody, but you do. And you have to fast, the bridegroom fast that I have, the first Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday of the month, everybody, and it's the wink, wink.

It's not really required, but everybody knows it is. And the more is better. And so now we have to do this, and if you don't do this, then, and I'm like, wait, didn't that already happen?

And shouldn't we have learned from that, when you're adding things to scripture? I think there's a model of that, and it didn't go well. And so, but again, I think that's what we're like in our fallen flesh.

We want to build, we want to be in charge, we want the ultimate authority, we want it to be about us. You know, I've asked so many of our former friends, why is your ministry named after yourself?

Like, why is your name on your ministry? It's not about you. It's like, I mean, to me, that's the biggest red flag. Like, if your name's on your ministry, that should be your starting place, because it's not about you, but maybe it is.

And that's the problem. It is the problem and that's really the final result That's the point in which the historians and the theologians who are looking at a false movement begin to examine Once it becomes about the leader. That's where you'll find all the documentation My point is what about whenever the leader was kind of in unison with the main trunk of Christianity and just started to go astray This is where the cross-pollination happens that you really it's it's undocumented. It really is and so once it gets The point where the leader has named the church after himself

I actually did this exercise when I was leaving Brannemism. I wanted to know when did it deviate from Christianity to become Brannemite and it was in 1945 When he rebranded himself for his second the second or third stage persona He renamed the tabernacle from Pentecostal tabernacle to the Brannem tabernacle So his name got put on the church back in 1945 This is before Latter-ain Developed but that was the stage persona that eventually birthed it. So Latter-ain was literally birthed by a man and Franklin Hall was joining in us too They're birthed by this man who was so full of himself that he named the tabernacle after himself and

Think of the word tabernacle. It was the Pentecostal tabernacle before this So they were ties to British israelism. They wanted a tabernacle and I look back at all of these threads of history. You've got white supremacy anti-Semitism British israelism restorationism you can find so many different isms and The fact that there are that many in the background of this to a movement that literally said and I'm almost quoting verbatim We want simple Christianity. We don't want all these isms and Yet their whole movement is built on top of them You wonder what in the world happen? How did people let this grow into this mess?

It's absolutely incredible when you especially when you speak of it that way Just wanting the simple gospel that right that's what that's what we keep going back to John and even in our Research and all the things that we're doing we always want to Even in some of the videos that we do which is about totally about deception We do want that simple message, but it's it's Jesus with without all of the stuff that everybody wants to put on you We don't want people to go into a movement. We want to pull people out of movements like literally pulled them out of moments

And get them in the Bible and get them with the real Jesus That's the reason why we're we're really speaking and the problem is man tries to dump everything on top of that while Like claiming that this is a simple Christianity or we're going back to we're restoring the church back to the original doctrine We're just not doing that. We just need that we need to come out of all this noise and get in the word time away from it and and understand who Jesus is. Yeah, we've been getting emails and comments and I've been finding myself in the last two weeks writing people who are like so burnt out,

so fried and they're watching YouTube all the time and thing, you know, it it it seems like to me that maybe we you know maybe you need to break maybe you know and I wrote I wrote somebody recently and I just said here you go just so you know we're not trying to build a ministry or legacy for us. So I wrote somebody yesterday yeah if you're looking to Kevin and I we are in perfect people who are going to let you down and we're getting it wrong all the time and by God's grace sometimes we get it right and the only reason we're doing videos is because we feel like

we want to share our journey we're not experts in anything and we're not trying to be we we don't promote any denomination or anyism you know we were even trying to write our what we believe on our website and that you know Kevin's like here he's like I think we need to write what we don't believe too and I'm like yeah what we believe and what we don't and we're not dispensationalists but we're not we're not we're not trying to be in any man-made system because we we just want to follow the Lord and we were you know and so I've been writing to people like you just need to sit

with the Lord get back in the word yourself we're not the authority it's not it's not up to us to tell you what Jesus is like he is enough and he can teach himself and I wrote somebody yesterday I said you know as soon as God tells us this YouTube channel is done we're done like it it's not about follow we don't care like it's it's we hope that this helps some people more than it hurts we hope that people maybe understand Jesus better and can find him easier and maybe know some things to avoid that we fell into and had to climb out of that's our best you know and and

again we're gonna get that wrong and all the time but we're committed to re-aligning our eyes on Jesus refocusing on him and picking ourselves back up through his grace and mercy and and and do it another day you know that's it that's all we got that's why I like what you guys do so much because in many ways it's similar to me I like to connect puzzle pieces and I've got one of these brains that I just want to put the puzzle together and so I have created a platform where people can share their puzzle pieces with me and everybody else who's interested so it's it's a it's a crazy

fascinating puzzle I'll just say it's like that we're working people find you on the internet yeah again the the YouTube channel is a Pellegrino walk so you could look us up there we have a website as well you can find us on Facebook and Barb also does some writing does a blog on substax so you check that out as well.

Awesome. Well, thank you so much for doing this. Yeah. Well, thank you for having us, John. Yeah. It's always good to talk to you. Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.

You can find us at www.William-Brandom.org and Pellegrino Walk YouTube channel. For more about the dark side of the new Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.