How Abusive Church Systems Break the Men

Music Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Brandham Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Brandham Historical Research at William-brandham.org and with me I have my co-host and friend, Pia Hugo, former member of the New Apostolic Reformation.

Pio, it's good to have you back and to talk about one of the delicate subjects that I dance around and that is the discussion of men. I actually don't talk about it much because men seem to be in turtle shells that are very hard to penetrate when you talk to them in one of these interviews. Whereas when you talk to the women they open up and they tell you pretty much everything that you want to know.

And so I have to delicately ask the questions and we don't have an example of somebody. So I guess I get to play guinea pig in this episode, but I'll start by saying this.

I'm not your usual male who was trapped in this thing and came out. I actually grew up, you don't know this about me, but I actually grew up reading the Bible and reading Louis Lemore books. And so from reading these books, these westerns, although it's all fiction and I question whether there's a whole lot of morals in it, they did have a moral code for the males in the stories.

And so I grew up with this weird moral code mixture of Louis Lemore and Bible verses and I feasted on things that were moral and wholesome like the end of Griffith's show. Once I started watching it, I would watch how Handy would behave and he always had the right answer. And yet I watched some of my peers grow up and they became very different from me. I'm just gonna say it like that.

Not to say that I'm perfect by no means, but I am an abnormality. However, because I was in it, I can pretty well describe all of the issues that men have and being something like this. And there are many.

So today is your day to play guinea pig with John. I guess we get to do a deep dive on men and you, John. So hello to everyone. I am coming live for John, but this is pre-recorded for your audience, but I am coming live from the Philippines. So behind me is a beautiful scenery from the backyard of our school. So I mentioned...

a few times that my husband and I are missionaries here in the Philippines and we've built a school for the poor kids in this area. I learned of Mindanao Philippines so I know you've got some Filipino people watching you because one of your commenters said whenever I watch your podcast here I think of Le Chon and Pancit he's mentioning Filipino food like okay you're either a Filipino or you just like Filipino food but that's nice that I remind you of Filipino food so I am very honored that I am probably your only Filipino guest I'm assuming and and so pretty sure you've never had

anyone broadcast live from the island of Mindanao so here we are and this is where I'm going to be for the next couple of weeks months actually so anyway let's do a deep dive on the effects of the negative effects I should say there are some positive but a lot of them are negative negative effects of the NAR system on men in general not just you John. So I really wanted to develop in this topic because I do feel that many of the guests that appear on your show and also other like exposure podcasts shows feature women and like you said you know women have no problems

sharing you know their deep dark secrets I should say you know because I think women just more naturally feel like it's very therapeutic for us to just speak from our hearts you know it's not like pulling teeth I've got three sons and one daughter and let me tell you when I talk to my sons it is like pulling teeth like how school fine anything happen no like okay come on like spill the beans what happened I can see it in your face so you know I think we have heard a lot about how women have been spiritually abused how they have been sexually abused

how they have been domestically you know assaulted and these are of course topics that are near and to my heart, but I do not want your audience to think for one moment that, you know, we should not care for the male population. So I'm going to start with this. I think one of the greatest ironies of spiritual, spiritually abusive leadership is that they tend to focus on strong biblical masculinity. You know, you mentioned that, you read, I'm not familiar with those literary works, but I'm assuming. Picture John Wayne. Oh boy, I was going to say.

Face of the Cowboys. I was picturing like cowboys and John Wayne and, you know, nothing phases me, you know, kind of thing. And I think that's very typical. That's not just American cowboy culture.

I think, I mean, again, I'm Filipino. Filipino men are very stoic, I think. And I'm married to a Mexican. So, you know, Latino men, you know, the whole machismo thing, you know, he's a firefighter.

So, again, the whole, you know, the facade, I'm going to call it that nothing can hurt me. You know, I'm a big boy. I'm a tough man. But I call it a facade because deep down inside, you know, we're all tender hearts. You know, we're all needing love and nurturing and caring.

And unfortunately, these are things that are not provided to women and men in some of these abusive cultures. So, I want to bring up an author. You might have heard of her. Her name is Holly Pivic.

Are you familiar with her? I am. So, she has co-written a few books with, with her colleague Douglas give it. I don't know if I'm pronouncing it right. But Holly and Douglas, it kind of like specialized on writing about NAR and all the bad things about NAR. And one of her most popular books is a book called Counterfeit Kingdom. Have you read it, John? I've read parts of it. I've not read the entire book, but I am familiar with it, yeah. So, if I may, I'm going to read a story about a couple whose names are Bruce and Sheila. I don't know if they're the real names,

but it's what Holly uses in her book. So, these are direct quotes. She says NAR Apoll- apostles and prophets, claim great authority in the church and beyond the church, and because of the powerful position they supposedly occupy between heaven and earth, their authority can wreak havoc in the lives of those who submit to them.

So Bruce and Sheila are one such couple. They were fooled for 15 years by their church leader, a man who claimed to be an apostle. And at that time they had no idea they were actually attending a NAR church.

That is typical. You, the audience, you might be in a NAR church and you don't even know it because they don't, you know, the new apostolic reformation is not really a denomination. And of course, John, you know this, you know, it's not like they're baptists, it's not like they're, you know, strictly charismatic.

It's really a movement. It's just a wave of churches and ministries that have really embraced the principles and the doctrinal practices of William Brannum, whether or not they realize it. You know, now I know, now we all know, now your audience knows, oh, okay, none of these are original.

It didn't come from Jay, it didn't come from C. Peter Wagner, you know, things that I was told, you know, or John Wimber or what's Derek Prince, right? NAR has become like this, this bucket, that all these different concepts and principles over the decades have just kind of fallen into.

And so now we have a NAR bucket of false teachings and very harmful doctrinal practices. I'm going to put it that way. Stephen Montgomery refers to it as the converging apostasy. And I just say it was a buffet of bad ideas.

They went through the buffet, taking this theology and this other theology, none of it was really biblical. And it really all started with this. They had an idea that sounded good. It sounded somewhat biblical, but it was slightly extra biblical.

And people tried to figure out, okay, well, if that's the case, how does it work? So they add their own idea and their own theology. And it would morph into a new theology. And then somebody would pick that up and say, that guy went into error.

But what he had was true, let's take that and let's add my own theology. And so that happened. And it just continued to spread like this cancer across the globe until you had this hodgepodge of ideas that really, none of it makes any sense, but people tried to say that it does make sense.

And so people go through the... off a line taking bits and pieces of what they like and in the end all they have is something that's not really that good to eat. So according to Holly, the couple did not feel free to make decisions for themselves.

Where to move, changing jobs, having children, disciplining children, without consulting the profit or the apostle and the senior pastor. And usually the senior pastor is either an apostle or a prophet. So they started out like all couples who first joined a NAR church.

They were loved, loved, bombed. They were welcomed. They were honored. And so Bruce quickly became very loyal to the pastor. And he would volunteer to do all kinds of things without pay, mind you.

And we've talked about that in previous podcasts, how they're just very good at recruiting people to give of their time and their money and their effort. And somehow people just say yes. So the problem started when Bruce began to question some of the apostles' interpretation of scripture.

He was told that he was just misunderstanding the apostle. So it was gaslighting basically, right? So he was gaslit so many times, he just stopped questioning. He just kind of slowly started shutting off his critical thinking skills.

And the apostle would also correct, humiliate and call out Bruce in front of the whole church. He used guilt and fear to control both Bruce and Sheila. But they remain at the church because they believed that this guy was a true apostle.

And all the wisdom he was getting came from God himself. Church services lasted between four to six hours on a Sunday. We've talked about this. And after years of steadfast loyalty to the apostle and surveyed the church, of course, the couple began to burn out, surprise, surprise.

So Bruce said, please, can I take a break from my responsibilities? He started becoming more anxious. He started becoming more depressed. We did a previous podcast, John, about my co-worker at PDI, whom I named Sally.

And same with Sally, right? Like just his work, his performance was deteriorating. Mentally, he realized he couldn't cope anymore. So he begged for a break and the puzzle said no. We can't function without you, you know, cause again, a very valuable volunteer is someone who wears many hats.

Maybe you're doing the soundboard. Maybe you're heading the children's church. Maybe you're worshiping or you're doing all of that without pay. So of course, the apostle told Bruce, well, we can't function without you.

And again, feeding into the man's ego. However, the couple just grew very disenchanted and they decided to eventually leave the church. Now, here's what I want you to listen to carefully. There was an exit meeting.

Not everybody has exit meetings, but apparently this apostle wanted an exit meeting. He said, if you're gonna leave our church, we need to have at least one last meeting. The apostle told him that because he was being disobedient and rebellious, the God would never use him in ministry ever again.

Now, mind you, that is almost pervade him what I was told. When I was asked, I mean, I wish I had the luxury

of being able to leave when I wanted. I was kicked out. So because I was kicked out and they called me rebellious because I divorced my ex-husband. They said that you're gonna be out of God's will forever and forget about ever serving in ministry because the favor of the Lord would somehow leave me.

So the sad thing is that when they left, none of their church friends reached out to them. They were shunned. They were explicitly told from the pulpit do not reach out to Bruce and Sheila because they are no longer part of our family.

So they went through this very painful, lonely process. And unfortunately, that is so typical. You know, that is almost like classic cultic behavior

on the part of their church. So when they were interviewed by Holly Pivic, sorry, they were still reeling from the severe spiritual abuse that they experienced at this church. But at the same time, Sheila was the wife, was also starting to feel very positive. Like, you know what, this is the best thing.

I have my husband back, you know, our kids father is back. She, I think, healed faster than Bruce did. And that's why I want to focus on the bruises of your audience. Because I think the men really have a harder time sometimes when they're within the system. And when they leave, I think women, you know, I'm actually a part of, I'm going to say two support groups of women who have left our churches. One is based on a Facebook page that my friend Shannon shot up to Shannon. She started. And another is in person, you know, and one of my dear friends,

Darla, who, you know, also came out of Che on's church, Harvest Rock church. She and I knew each other from before. And I believe she is or is going to be one of your guests in one of your podcasts.

So I have women friends that I can commissarate with. And like you said, it's a lot easier for us to just open up our hearts and vent and just be there for one another. But my experience with men is they leave church. And they're just, hey, I'm a cowboy, right? I'm just going to ride my horse and I'm just going to ride off into the sunset and whatever. I'm going to just go to the next town.

And somehow they manage to go through the rest of their lives. But I believe that they all have gaping wounds still deep down inside. So I'm going to let you share a little bit about your gaping wound. John, is it true that men really do tend to go go at it alone in their journey of healing? There's so much that I could say. But I think I'll start with this.

Don't think cowboy instead think horse because that's really what it's like for the man. it's more like the horse. Whenever men are growing up, they're growing up with this natural inclination to start a family, to protect, to serve the family, to help raise young kids, etc. That's part of your internal makeup. And you have great ambitions. As a man, I grew up with great ambitions, but like the wild horses that had great ambitions, we were broken. And whenever you think about what the cowboys did to the horse to break them enough to ride them so that the horses could serve

them, that's what was happening to the men. The irony in all of that, and actually the reason why I mentioned the Louis Lemur books, which you got to read days if you're interested in cowboys.

I'll say it like that. They're actually really good wholesome books, and yes, they talk about outlaws, etc. But it does capture something that you don't find much in America. And sadly, in my opinion, religion has destroyed that aspect of men. It really has. So, back to the horses, we were broken horses because we were taught to believe that these abusive leaders were teaching us something that was defending manhood. But instead, what it was really doing was it was promoting control. So, if you were to be a real man, in fact, I've heard this exact sentence.

If you're to be a real man, you must control your woman. So, they were teaching a hierarchy of control. But at the same time, strength wasn't an internal strength. Strength was listening to what the leader told you to be strength. So, you were being trained to be broken, just like a horse.

And so, what was happening is, while they're preaching strength, they're actually giving you weakness, but they're calling it strength. And so, when men leave this, they leave much like a horse would be if an owner said, I don't want you anymore horse, go away from here. What does the horse do? All the horse really knows is how to serve the master. That's what's happening whenever people leave these churches. And sadly, in fact, I have witnessed this firsthand. I've witnessed a person who left one of these abusive churches, tried to adapt in a new church, but the people in

the new church weren't broken like this. And the ministers did not expect to ride them like this. So, it's like a horse who comes to a new rider and the rider says, I don't want to ride you.

You're free. Do whatever you want. The horse knows nothing except to be broken. And that's sadly what is happening to the men. Yeah, very, very tragic. And I'm glad you mentioned that part about how they, you know, they pretend to care about your masculine while simultaneously stripping you of your true masculinity.

So, I've come up with five things. I'm going to call it five things that abusive nor pastors do to the men in their churches. The first thing I'm going to say this way, they replace personal conviction with submission to authority.

So, healthy pastors, like you said, they teach men to hear God for themselves, to make decisions that are wise and to go to God, read the Bible, to gain wisdom. Unfortunately, abusive nor pastors do the exact opposite.

They subtly, very subtly communicate one, you need to trust my discernment. Only I can really discern what God wants for your life. To questioning me is my questioning God. And three, your role is obedience and not discernment.

So, it's exactly what you were saying, John. The second one, the second thing that they do is they undermine the father's role in the home. So, in abusive church cultures, the pastor kind of becomes like the functional head of multiple families.

You know what I mean? You've often described the hierarchical structure of these narrow churches like a pyramid. So, at the very top is like the mini Pope. We call them many things. Then we got narcissistic leaders, but right now I'm thinking of the word Pope.

The Pope, the head of the church, the mini church. And then you've got all these families that cannot function without first listening to the Pope. So, men as they're leading their families begin to ask, huh, what would the Pope say about this?

Like, anybody allowed to do this? Can we move here? Can I get that job? Can I ask for the raise? Like, well, what would the Pope say? Let me make an appointment to see the Pope.

You know, would the Pope approve of this? Now, here are the two big ones. Would the Pope want me to discipline my children and how? And two, how would the Pope, how would my pastor want me to do this?

Want me to do this? to educate my kids. And I'll tell you the typical answer. How do I discipline my kids? Well, we've got a book for you. It's, you know, on sale at the church table for, you know, $9.99, it's called God, the Rod, and your child's bod, which we've already talked about in a previous podcast by the child expert Larry Tomzak.

So of course, you're going to use the rod, right? So even if you yourself, you have an anger issue. It seems like there are quite a few men with anger issues. I'm not going to, I'm not going to venture too far into that.

But, you know, there are quite a few men, I think who are raised by angry fathers and so it gets passed on. So, you know, and I'm not saying women don't have anger issues, you know, we just tend to, we just tend to express our anger a little differently.

But when you put a rod in the hands of an abusive man who can't control his anger like my ex-husband did, then you're putting a weapon in his hands. Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transition through the latter reign, charismatic, and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation?

You can learn this and more on William Brannum Historical Research's website, William-Brannum.org. On the book's page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.

You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top.

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The second question, how do I educate my children? So I'm going to throw that out, you John. What would a typical NAR pastor tell the father? What's the best way to get your kids educated?

So now, interestingly, I'm going to instead of the horse, go to the dog. I have seen people's dogs that are like this. They just cower in fear. Whenever a command is given, their tail goes between their legs, the cower down, and you can tell that that's the sign of a well-beaten dog.

And we, we actually, we have gotten a few. you dogs from the shelter and some of them that we have taken on have had this and it's really hard to correct once this has happened because you've broken their will and the dog that we have now fortunately we rescued her at a time when she wasn't yet that broken she still has some issues but I encourage the dog so that the dog can learn I don't want to beat the dog because the dog will be scared of me I want to show a relationship and connect

with them in a way that a father should connect to his children I'm connecting in the same way I would with my children to the dog the same thing with my children when I'm teaching my children something I'm one of these unusual dads because I will let them make the biggest mistakes even if it's costly sometimes because I want them to learn from that experience I don't want to stand there with a whip and say no you can't do that because Pex Y and Z I usually let them fall and then pick them back up but I want them to see that they too

can pick themselves back up is really the lesson here that's how a father should train when I when I was in the movement sadly our oldest child was there for the other version of me and the other version of me was not like this we were told exactly what you said spare the rod spoil the child all of these things that we were taught and we even had it quite a bit worse than what you're describing in that book because you can go to my website you can type in physical abuse I won't talk about it on YouTube because YouTube will block it

it was that bad but we were raised with that mentality you must beat everyone everything especially the females into submission or you're not a man and so I was trained with that mentality if I want to be a real man I must beat something and the irony for me is my personality is not like this I don't I don't want to be that person so I was I had this internal conflict what this does in the end you talked about the spiritual abuse of the women and how they behave and react men had spiritual abuse too but we had it in a different form we were trained

to distrust ourselves we can't trust the things that we do we can't trust the way that we parent we cannot trust anything except for what this leader says that we must do and how we must behave and if we disagreed with them we had to even submit to that we could not even have a disagreement so one of the problems that develops after this a you become horrible parents obviously but b when you leave the movement even after deprogramming you really struggle to trust yourself and you can't really react whenever there's something that happens you disagree with or even a

conversation you disagree with the sad part for me because the movement merged with politics it became a strong political force course. Well, think about what has happened as the fruits of this. Get on Facebook anytime there's an election and watch how people treat each other in the comments. They don't know how to react with somebody who has a different opinion because they've been manipulated like this. And it is widespread. It's not just in, like you said, it's not just a specific group or denomination. It is spread throughout the church systems.

Well, there's a word for that, John. It's intolerance. And as a former social science teacher, that is the number one thing we teach in our classrooms is tolerance. Acceptance and tolerance for people who are different from you. That's an excellent answer, John, to how do you educate your children? Good for you. I think I'm not surprised that you're a good person, John.

That's why you're a good dad and I'm sure you're a good husband. But unfortunately, like you said, there is just extreme control from the top, right? Down. And that includes how you educate your kids.

The answer I was actually looking for was homeschooling, which goes with what you're saying, right? Because how can you even control your kids to the max? You don't even bring them to school. You don't even bring them to public school. It's one thing to bring them to Christian school, at least they're socializing there. But oh my gosh, public school is the devil's playground.

I have heard that so many times, which is why I laugh because my kids went to public school. And I taught at a public school for 23 years. You know, I'm not saying we don't have our demonic influences, but you know, they're saying better the devil, you know, better the devil, you know, than the devil. You do not know. It was very clear to me the demonic influences I had to battle with when I was a public high school teacher. But man, the devil that's in the church. Oh man, they are very subtle. Those those demonic influences. And that's why we're doing this podcast

because we got to wait people up that the evils are not just out there, right? They're within during us and they're around us in our true circles. But again, I this is the second time I've mentioned homeschooling and I will say it again, I am not against homeschooling. I think there are I know personally of many parents.

who are excellent or are excellent homeschooling parents. And I've also seen wonderful results from kids who are homeschooled. But when the motive for putting your kids in a homeschooling situation is to just keep them locked into the system.

And you're taught by the church which homeschooling curriculum to buy. You know, what teachings to highlight? And you know, it's still basically that Pope calling him a Pope. Well, now he's also the superintendent.

Okay, he gets to decide what gets taught to all the kids. And that is how you keep the system just going from generation to generation to generation. And the father, like you said, even though you had a problem with that style of parenting in the beginning because you were part of the system, you felt you had no choice.

And the same with me. I used to rod. I'm, you know, it's hard for me to admit. I stopped quite soon, okay, because I couldn't do it. I did it a few times. I couldn't do it. I couldn't use that stupid wooden spoon anymore.

But, you know, it's again, one of the us, I think, most tragic results of what happens to men when they just follow these guys blindly. So that leads to the third thing that churches tend to do to men.

Our pastors reward compliance rather than courage. So I like, let's go back to the horse, you know, I like what you said that a horse that is free, that is majestic, that is full of courage.

I've seen wild horses run, you know, and they are beautiful to watch. And you can, they're like fearless, right? They know, you know, no bounds. And they'll jump over, you know, bushes and whatever, rocks.

And I just think that that is a beautiful illustration of a healthy man, full of courage. I mean, Jesus was the bravest man, God, that ever was. And it's so sad, like you said, that the end result.

once a man submits to the authority of a narcissist is a broken horse. So this is what I wrote, spiritually abusive systems will punish real courage, men who want to speak truth, right, men who want to just confront wrongdoing, men who just want to protect the innocence. They punish men with those traits and instead this is what they're taught. Courage can only be celebrated so long as you're benefiting the leadership. So long as you're going with a program, sure will applaud your courage, you know, because what you did actually helped the leaders. Silence is rewarded. So I mentioned this in a previous podcast. I've

been in board meetings. I've been in past pastoral meetings, leadership meetings, where the head pastor, apostle, the pope speaks. And in my mind, I mean I'm just like the secretary, right? I'm just a glorified secretary taking notes. He says something. And in my mind, I'm thinking that's ridiculous. Like we're doing what?

You know, I mean, I'm not going to I can't even think of an example right now, but just just just think of the most ridiculously you've ever heard from the mouth of a, you know, of a pastor. And no one says anything. I'm looking at all the men in the room. And they're all like, yes, amen. You know, like really? And it just, it was dumbfounded. The first time it happened to me. And then I got used to it.

And then now, you know, after a while, I realized that when, when, you know, the leader, the top leader would say, okay, you guys have any questions? That's code for I don't really want you to say anything. Okay. So you're all good. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Okay. That's code for I'm just going to keep my mouth shut if I want my job or if I want to keep my position, right? So silence is always rewarded. And loyalty is valued above personal integrity.

Loyalty is the number one thing that these leaders are always looking for. All right. Let's go to number four. The fourth thing that I think our pastors tend to do is they humiliate the men who challenge them. We already saw that in the example of Bruce. Um, any, way and anyhow, if there is a man who's strong enough and firm enough to say pastor that goes against my personal convictions, I don't think that's right.

What do they do? They will mock you, they will question your motives, they will portray you as being prideful and rebellious, they will strip you. If you keep pressing, they will strip you of all your ministry positions and this is the most painful of all and I want to ask you, John, if you've experienced this, they will isolate you socially.

You're not going to be invited to their games, their basketball games or whatever men tend to do to relax. I was going to say you're not invited to their poker games but maybe Christian men don't play poker, at least they didn't in the dark churches I went to.

But let's just say those Saturday basketball games, you're not invited to those functions anymore. Have you ever experienced that, John? That was actually a huge part of our leaving. There was a point in time in which my grandfather did not, I don't think he fully believed that we were going to leave for good the movement.

And he came out, I'm told, I wasn't there, but he came out from behind the pulpit and said that everybody needs to stay away from John and Jennifer. At this point, the only thing that really I had done was asked a couple of questions, Jennifer being my wife, only had asked a couple of questions, Jennifer had not even mentioned a question.

Like she was just caught up in this because of that subordinate thing that I was talking to about you before, you're in this hierarchy and because I asked a question, nobody can talk to her.

And there's a word for how it made me feel that I don't use on the podcast, but it made me feel bad. Honestly, like that, I think there's one missing letter from how it made me feel.

But it was pretty bad. And what I have come to find out, so you mentioned the men who don't say anything, I still believed at that point in time that we were under a prophet, William Brannum, I believed that yes, there were some issues, I knew there were some issues, we were leaving the church, but I still thought he was a prophet, I really did.

It wasn't until I watched how my grandfather behaved that I realized something is wrong here. And that's when I saw how he behaved and one other family member, which I won't get into that, I realized that this is, this is a cult, this is bad, this is not right.

And I started examining the sermons and I was shocked at what I was allowing my wife to hear. I really was in the climax of the worst possible things. that you could possibly say to a woman, I'm reading a sermon that we heard every year, my grandfather played it every year, two young men who wanted to date young women.

And he would play the sermon from Brandham called Marriage and Divorce, which is one of the most famous sermons in Brandhamism. In fact, if you're in NAR, you are in NAR because Brandham existed, you're in there because of these themes that he had in his sermons, but they don't come out and say it nearly so explicitly.

Brandham came out and he says, you men who can't control your women, and I'm paraphrasing greatly, he said women were made from the very beginning in the Garden of Eden to deceive men. There's nothing lower on the face of the planet.

They're not as low as a dog, they're not as low as a hog. He's saying this and that, I am quoting verbatim. When I saw that, I actually got angry because every single man who's sitting there, in the Louis Lamore books, they would have rose up and they would have slugged him with their fist.

That's how bad this was. You just insulted my wife. You're not going to get away with insulting my wife, but he insulted every female who was in here. But more than that, he insulted the men indirectly, which is, I know it sounds bad and people can hate me for this, but it's actually worse for the man because they did not even earn being disrespected to their face, they said, you indirectly and referring to how they're treating their women.

So they get the indirect insult instead of the direct insult, and they don't know how to handle it. And so the men just cower. And what it finally hit me was, the pastor in these movements have become the substitute father.

But not just the substitute father in a normal, healthy family unit. This is an angry father who has obedience issues, who has anger issues, who has mental health issues, all a wide variety of issues.

You're in that type of environment. And whenever they start lashing out at you, making front of you all of these things as they're doing a spiritual abuse, what you are happening in your head, what you're doing is you're caving to the father who's actually beating you with a whip.

You're in that moment in your head where you're being beaten, men and women in these movements. So what it creates is this dynamic where it's training you how you as a father should treat your family because I as a pastor am treating you my congregation like this.

Yeah, yeah, no, that's perfect. John, perfect segue into the last thing that I'm going to mention here. The fifth and last thing that our leaders tend to do is they make the men into protectors of the community.

institution. And in your case, the message, right, rather than protectors of their wives and their children and just vulnerable people, you know, the Bible is full of verses that says that we need to protect the widows and the orphans and, you know, the poor and the least of these, you know, you do things for the least of these, you do it for me. And yet, why is it that in these abusive churches, it is the exact opposite? The innocent ones, the, you know, the ones that are being neglected and ignored, they're the ones that get shunned. They're the ones that, oh, well, Pastor doesn't like

them. Pastor doesn't like John and Jennifer. So let's not talk to them ever again. Like, where, how do we even, how did we even get to this point? Because the same thing happened to my friend, my, my former coworker from PDI, Sally and her husband, you know, that's, I tried to reach out to them, but by then they were just too hurt, you know, and they just left. So instead of protecting people, many male leaders and just men in the church are conditioned to protect the institution.

They become protectors of the apostle of the prophet of the senior pastor of the ministry brand because it is a branding, right? We need to protect the reputation of the church and the ministry at all costs. And that's why cover up culture is prevalent because we do not want anything to more the perfect image. And, and I know for me, you know, thank you for sharing your personal story that you experience with your family, you and your wife. I know for me when I was shunned, when I became a single mom with three kids, I was desperate for, for a kind word, you know,

just helping hand from some of my former churchmates. And I was kind of shocked that they would just drop me like a hot potato, like I didn't even exist. And, you know, and, and I know, again, for men, they, they experience all of that, like I'll talk a little bit about my ex-husband okay I don't really share his side of the story because of course for me in the 10 years we were married he was the abuser the perpetrator but let's just go forward decades later I'm actually friends with him now I mean I lose that I use that word loosely we're friends we talk

and I have actually learned from him that had we both been part of a healthy church had we both been counseled properly by trauma informed professionals by mental health professionals because he did have serious mental issues you know anger was just one of them he might have been a different man you know but like you said if you already enter the systems broken and maybe already dealing with mental health issues being in this system only makes you crazier it makes you even more depressed even prone maybe to suicidal ideation which we haven't really talked about and I know it's kind of tricky but you know I know of men

who have actually taken that route because the pain inside was just too much for them to handle you know that mental anguish so yeah so I think I'm just gonna end there because you know I really wanted our audience you know to be aware that women are the ones female victims nowadays tend to be more vocal I see them a lot in these exposure videos if you want to call it that but I'd really like to hear more men you know like how how did it affect you and are you still dealing with with all that and and what are you doing about it you know where do you go for help because

that's something that me and my female friends have actually talked about like it's great that we formed this like community of women but is there a similar community for men who need just as much if not more help in this healing journey and restoration journey that we're all in it's really hard because for female the abuse looks different for a man what is happening is you are starting to submit and you're starting to starting to tell your inner self that you must submit, and therefore you must keep quiet.

And I'll say it like this, when a person needs pastoral permission to obey your conscience, something happens inside of you that you can't really get past. It contains you, it controls you, and when you leave, you leave so broken, but you've been trained not to speak.

The thoughts that are coming in your head, the things that you need to say, stand up and say, no, you will not insult my wife from behind the pulpit. People don't say this, they bottle them up, and what happens is there isn't really a way that a support group of men can thrive because everybody is bottled up.

It would be like, if you get a bunch of turtles wanting to talk, and they all go into a shell, which is the first turtle to speak, right? One of the interesting things I've been to a therapist, and I highly recommend this for anybody who is going through what we've described.

There's this fear of what therapy is, and I remember the first time I go in there, you're told, this is the guy who's gonna give you a demon, they're going to rip your mind out, they're going to all of this stuff.

They have instilled this fictional fear in your head, and I thought this guy was like Saramond, the Swarchwerp, he's going to take advantage of me. And all they do, really, for the most part, is they get you to talk.

So for the man who has bottled everything up for 37, I was 37 years in this thing. I had trouble talking for the first few times I go, but what they do is they try to find ways to get you to open up and to speak, and it isn't that they're healing you, it's that you're healing yourself.

Whenever you talk about it, your brain is forced to process what you have for 37, me, 37 years had not processed. I had not processed that I let this person insult my wife from these recordings, but suddenly I'm having to now, oh my gosh, what have I done?

And you start to feel this inward confession of your own sins, because I was a bad person when I was in this. Well, once you start talking and opening it up, they don't really give you advice on how to fix it.

They enable you to work through it yourself so that you can fix it and you can move on. So what I would say as far as a support group for men, first, they should probably get into some therapy.

Then after that, what would happen if there were to be such a group? And I still don't know if it would work. Somebody who has opened up would do the same thing a therapist would do to get others to open up, but in doing so, they might be better off to go to a therapist.

So there are some issues with this, but in the end, the problem is real. Men had the spiritual abuse and it manifested. Fested in such a different way where everybody balls it up nobody talks about these things so I'm glad you got to play Guinea pig with me and get me to open up some

Well, I want to end by sharing something that happened two days ago. So I don't know if you can see there's a Wooden fence right behind me, but beyond that fence is the ocean. I wish you could see the ocean. It's beautiful So we also run a diving resort Here in this this land that we're in which we inherited from my mom and So I learned how to scuba dive at 58 years old. So it's one of my favorite hobbies now. It's never too late Um, and so I went diving two days ago and I saw sea turtle

And I was so excited. They're they're kind of rare in these parts So I started running after the sea turtle because you mentioned turtle so it came to my mind And I started swimming Not run, but swimming after the sea turtle And of course that sea turtles darting away right because he senses danger And my dive instructor holds my fins like pulls me back and says that's not the way you know He's doing through through sign language. That is not the way to do it. He says like like just stay still And you know and just try to like calm yourself

But kind of like in your peripheral vision See what the sea turtles doing so I did I was just still And then I was looking and the sea turtle became curious right And and he flipped around and he's just like circling me and he's like okay I'm not gonna go near you, but you're just sitting there and You know, I can't tell if you're friendly or not, but I'm gonna stick around a little bit So I got to enjoy that turtle a lot longer than if I had Swim after it. So here's my point I

I am married to a firefighter husband now, right? He's amazing He's wonderful But just like my boys when they would come home from school. How was work honey? It was good Really anything happened Not really I mean he's a firefight. He has exciting stories, right? I have learned to wait. I have learned I'm talking to the wives now, okay I have learned to wait and just like okay, here's your dinner, you know, and just I keep my mouth shut because sometimes weird like well, let me tell you about my day honey and blah blah blah blah blah

Like I have learned to wait like are you sure you you look a little worried like you know I think my trauma informed constantly training kicks in and I kind of put on the you know the hat of a therapist even though I'm like a pseudo therapist and I have learned to just wait and let him you know like through his own timing through his own ways express to me how he's feeling you know how his day really went so just a little bit of advice there you know that I think women or you know most most

female females tend to like tell me tell me tell me you know kind of like when I was swimming after that sea turtle and sometimes patience patience is a virtue and I think if we wait long enough and if we're really training ourselves to be good listeners maybe the men will start to open up to us good things come to those who wait thank you so much for doing this thank you John if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information you can check us out on the web you can find us at William-Brandom.org and piohugo-ministries.com for more

about the dark side of the new apostolic reformation you can read weaponized religion from Christian identity to the NAR available in Amazon Kindle and Horrible