How Fear and Control Shaped My Childhood

Music Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Brannum Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Brannum Historical Research at William-Brannum.org, and with me I have my very special guest, the son Nadar, full remember of the message.

The son is good to have you on finally to talk about your experience in the message. I've been in contact with people from India who were impacted by William Brannum's cult following. I think you might be the first person on the podcast from India if I remember correctly, but I'm really fascinated to learn more because how it spread in the United States and Canada is much different than how it spread in India, and the belief system, although the core beliefs may be similar, it is quite different. So thank you so much for joining. If you could tell everybody just a little bit about yourself.

Hi, this is the son Nadar, and you know I am from India, from a state called Tamil Nadu, but right now I stay in Mumbai, which is in Narsha for work. And I am from my almost six generations, you know, we were Christians. I think when British came to India, you know, my grandparents, they must have got converted and as far as I know I am the sixth generation, I know Christians.

So I was born and bought up in a Christian background. And second generation in Brannum is basically so my dad, there is a link between Brannum and my dad, which is I am sure you've heard of Paul Acerlari.

I don't know if you know him. I've seen all your podcast, you know, the documentary about William Rannum, life is free, you know, 39 episodes or something like that. So I've seen a picture in your lost podcast. So I thought, you know, there must be something you know about him, you know.

So, so yeah, so Paul Acerlari and his son, David, okay, and my father or friends, so that's how my father is like hardcore Brannum followers. where, you know, till date. And I am also recently, you know, started coming out of it. It's been two months, you know, after watching all your videos, you know, that and doing a lot of research on my own. And, you know, started coming out of it, you know, I wouldn't say that I'm 100 percentage out of it because it's really hard, you know, since I am 28 years old and I was born

and bought up in that atmosphere. And, you know, I will tell you, you know, about my child, you know, how I was, you know, born and bought up till the age of 28 years old, then you will get a better idea for, you know, the history and where I'm coming from, you know, what I have been through.

I'm very interested to hear that. I'm also interested to know what connected your father to Paul Azir Lowry. Yes, we did mention him. He's, he's the person who was connected to Brannum, who was to spread the message to India. And, he claimed that the moon landing was the return of Jesus Christ or something like this. He actually came to the United States, talking about this, weird doctrine. What connected family to him? I'm not exactly, you know, aware of how they become friends, but then we are basically, you could say, long relatives, you know, same surname, you know. So, obviously, my dad had a lot of friends and my great, my grandfather was

all Protestants, of course. And they were, my grandfather was a leader of, you know, church, you know, he used to assign pastors to particular churches and, you know, he used to hire people for, you know, a lot of schools are owned by churches, you know, he used to do all the admin works and he was in a position and my dad was born and brought up with that background and he knows what happens in the, from the administration point of view. It's not, people think, you know, everyone is holy, but then it is actually not, you know, they run behind money. So, my dad is

kind of one of us to come out of his belief, you know, the local church because there is no sincerity in what they do and that's how I think if I'm not drunk, you know, he was inquiring about

he was talking, I mean, he must have been talking to his friends and then he was talking to his friends, he was talking to his friends and then he was talking to his friends.

have given the messages, the books from Brennan, you know. If you will come to my hometown, you know, the entire wall is full of his messages, basically. So that's how he was, you know, caught into this Brennan mission, I would say.

It's interesting. You said that when you're behind the scenes, you see, and it's usually the money. That's one of the things a lot of people who are in the leadership position, maybe not even pastor, but even just leadership. They start to see how things are operating and they realize that this is a man-made operation, very much man-made, and then they hear things from behind the pulpit, the preacher saying, and God did this and that and the other. Well, sometimes it's actually the administrator who did this and that and the other to bring the money in or to set up the scenario.

That's something that it's common to all churches. It's not just Brannemism, but in Brannemism, because everything is over-spiritualized, there's always this aspect of God did this thing and sometimes it'll be a human who gets offended because the human actually did really hard work for whatever was the spiritualized thing. So I can very much relate to you on this. What was it like for you growing up in that type of environment? I was never, we didn't go to the local church and there is no message church nearby, my place. I was born and brought up in a village and

the only message believer I would say from that village is my dad. Of course, he's got a lot of friends and as I said earlier, you know, there we went, Paula Sirvari, all those, so a lot of friends, they do follow Brannemism and when I was a kid, we were not allowed to mingle with anyone in our village. So I have one younger brother and sister, we total three, three children to my dad. And we stayed home the only time that we go out for school. So the van comes in, we go to the school and come back, that's it. So when my dad is around, we can't watch any television.

You know, and a lot of, but I before I, but I would like to be little more cautious in what I say, I love my dad. I love my dad till this day and I will love him also in future.

He was very strict and he used to quote some Bible words. You'll have to be strict with your children and he used to beat us. And when we go to school, teachers used to be a little bit sad about all the markings that we have.

And that was one thing. A lot of things. But I that never was a problem for me because since I was also born and bought up in that same environment, I was thinking that it is the right thing to do.

I also has the same belief system. So I was always, you know, admired my dad, you know, I wanted to be like when I grow up also. And yeah, we were never going to local churches.

Every good thing about my childhood was I've heard in message churches, you know, everyone has day hours, Saturdays and day weekly twice. They just, you know, play the radio and all the followers they used to listen to the message.

But then my dad, he never did that. So every Sunday we used to sit as a family and then we used to read Bible, not the message book. Even though my dad spends, you know, one or two hours reading the message on his own.

But he never read the message to us. He always gave the book and then he told us to read. And so that is one good thing which my dad did, I would say. So every Sunday we used to read Bible.

And so from my childhood, you know, so initially once or twice, you know, we completed the Bible and then I understood the entire Bible, you know, like a storyline, you know, what happened. And as I, you know, got to know about more Christianity.

So as I got older, I used to question my dad, you know, during our Bible study. So Bible says this. But you said, you know, but you are saying this why it is against Bible.

So for example, you know, intercast marriage, you know, I used to tell my dad, you know, a lot of people married outside the people of Israel, you know. And for example, Joseph got married, Moses got married and all.

So my dad is like hot core. How do you say? against Intercast marriage. So and he's against a low marriage also. So only arranged marriage and

Talking to girls is like completely prohibited You know Which I never had any complains I would say but then Eventually I started questioning my dad, you know during Sundays when he was reading bible, you know I used to tell him, you know bible says this but you are You are saying this. What is it difference? Why and then It was so we start bible reading and it is always a human between me and dad and as I got older and then Eventually, I think when I was around 22 or 23 I stopped Um Attending the bible study also even though it was just five of us family member

the reason uh was The me as I served earlier my dad, you know came out of the local churches because there is no sincerity in what they are doing So if you go to local church, it is not like a church in us. I admire a lot of church in us, you know Admir as in no There is there is a lot of uh since I love watch a lot of youtube videos. There is a lot of As you said earlier, you know people go behind money and all that leadership power Not that great but then still they know the bible, you know they read the bible and he tried to teach the bible

And people go to the church, you know they go Um to worship God but then in India Since british came and you know converted people that sincerity is with very few people You know they they go to church for Job and you know they just think that if I go to church and pay some money, I'll be happy for next six days. Yeah, so So God will be with me and so So that that's the mentality. There is no sincere fellowship with God. So that's why my dad came out of The church, you know I came out of the bible reading session because it there is the sincerity is not there anymore

When I was a kid the cure the curiosity and sincerity was not there So it has become more of an argument and I don't agree with him, you know he he used That is because I don't blame my dad that is because of his belief in the message so it's like a mask or It's like a filter, you know, so His belief he has a Um, mask reading the Bible, you know, so, so what is written in the Bible goes through that mask and he gets it through the message. So, um, I'm after looking at your videos, I realized, you know, my dad always used to say,

uh, since I told, uh, I was talking about intercast marriage, my dad always used to say, you know, in the, when God created humans, he, he, they can only every rose will produce rose only and, um, on same kind, you know, and, um, humans.

So, brain, how I think he used to use that example in one of his message, I got an idea of rough idea of what it was because after looking at your post cast podcast, I came to know, you know, he was a part of the couplets plan and white supremacism and he doesn't like, um, you know, black mixing with white. I don't know if it is offensive or not. I'm sorry if it is offensive.

It is offensive, but that's the funny part. It is offensive and he said it and therefore if he is a prophet, why is he saying things that are offensive. In fact, one of the troubles that I have confidentially and now out into the open in the public, one of the biggest troubles I have is I'm publishing all this research about brand on platforms that filter offensive content. It is extremely difficult to do this because I'm directly quoting what the man said and it is highly offensive.

And you should never say these things. And so this has turned into a problem. The interesting part about this. I also know the translators at voice of God recordings, the headquarters. This is one of the same problems they face as they're producing material that goes into other countries.

You can't produce this type of material without being highly censored. Yet they have to produce the message. How do you do it? It's, it's a problem. So I came to realize if you're a translator, you know that he's saying these things because you're trying to alter the offensive and make it not offensive.

But it's such a fascinating history. One of the things, one of the reasons why I've wanted to have somebody on from India, I was early in my research and I was trying to just simply determine was he a false prophet or was he a true prophet.

And every prophecy that I examine it kept changing over time. So the prophecy began one way and it would shift into another way. And I'm going through all of this and I found this place where you've probably heard it. He says, if any one single detail of my prophecy is wrong, I will hang a sign on my back and say false prophet.

Well, then I get to the India prophecy and he says, you mark my words. Whenever I go into India, you'll read in the newspapers of thousands times 10,000s being said. And then he comes back and he says, well, you know, the prophecy of India didn't turn out like it was supposed to so he's admitting false prophecy, right?

Well, fast forward a few years. I'm publishing my research. I'm finally come to the conclusion. Yes, he was a false prophet and he had false prophecy. And he should have hung his own his own sign on his back. I get to talking to a person from India and they say, well, that prophecy actually came true.

And I stopped and I thought about it and I asked myself, well, if it did come true, why was it not in the newspapers like he said and they're ignoring that detail, right? And they said basically that, well, over time, now years later, we have thousands times, 10,000s of message people in India.

And I still question this because I don't think it's that big, which I'll ask you that in just a second. But it all goes back to the twisting of words. You mentioned your father said, which he's repeating, Brannum, he says that, yes, William Brannum was saying these racist things, but we like the rose to produce the rose.

Brannum would say, every tree should bear its own fruit. So we have the white tree. We have the black tree. He had different ways of saying it. That works for a person who doesn't know how to critically think. You say, yes, well, this is a rose. And yes, the next one is a rose.

But the person who's critically thinking goes back and say, wait a minute, we're not talking about roses. We're talking about humans. And humans go back to Adam and Eve. There are only two. So how can you say this? They're only two. So for a person who's critically thinking, and the man says, if one single detail is wrong with a prophecy, I'm a false prophet.

And the newspapers did in print of thousands times 10,000. What do you do with this? Did they ever talk about this prophecy there whenever you're in the group? And also, do you think there's even close to that many people in the message in India?

Okay. That's a good question. Before I jump, answering that question, that was the exact argument I used to make, you know, with my dad. I told you that I was in New Zealand for one and a half years. I was doing my flight training over there. So I met a friend from Papa, New Guinea.

I always, you know, ask question, I question, okay, we are reading this Bible. Where it came from? Okay, 1600s. You know, there is a guy called King James. He, you know, compiled everything. He created a Bible and then it got translated and all that. So I used to do my own research.

And I was talking to him. I was asking him about, you know, in our schools, we study about evolution and all that. But Bible doesn't talk about evolution. God created Adam and Eve. You know, he didn't, we didn't come from one key. So what do you think about that?

And, you know, and we have seen evidences for you know dinosaurs and all that. So, so Bible doesn't talk about it, you know, how do you explain all that? And he was like, he pointed me to someone called Ken Hogan in US. So, I don't know if you know him or not, he is based out of Alabama in US. So, he, his ministry is all about creation, you know, how God created, how dinosaurs, you know, how they're into the world, you know, how everything, you know. So, he used to say, you know, used to quote the same quote, you know, humans are supposed to produce humans, you know,

monkeys are supposed to produce monkey, you know. And when, you know, rows are supposed to produce rows, that is what the God had designed. Not is, there is no distinction between humans, you know, we are all from the same parent, you know. And we'll talk about soap and seed also a little later, but yeah, we all came from Adam and Eve and we were supposed to produce human, not monkey.

That's what Bible says. It is not talking about intercast marriage or interracial marriage among humans. So, that that is what the human, I usually, you know, keep with my dad and obviously he doesn't agree with it and then we used to fight and then there's no peace in the Bible study.

And to, coming back to your question, to answer your question, as far as I know, maybe 50 to 100 people in my state, I would say, follows a message and I would say sincerely, they follow his message. Maybe a little more than that, but definitely not 10,000 of people, you know.

And, and I think you just put it in YouTube and there are a few preachers from India, you know, they talk, they talk about brain amism, there is a picture of his, you know, they hang his picture and they talk about it, they talk about him, but as far as I know, the numbers are very, very less.

And I have visited the headquarters in India, they have an office in Chennai.

I think, vice of God, recording office in Chennai, I visited twice so far. Once I went alone and second I went with my dad, that was your back. one year back I went with my dad and I think 2017 or 18 I went alone when I went to

initially first time when I went to that office in Chennai so they were like I was I was like hardcore I was also a believer you know I was thinking Brennan was the second Elijah you know and I was believing all his messages you know I was believing all his summons you know predestination serpent seeds whatever Brennan seeds I used to believe so I went with that sincerity in my and then when I went the way they behaved I felt a little bit like how the local churches in India behave so same behavior you know and they were giving out iPads and I was like why are you

giving me iPads everyone have phones you know we can just download the table app all the messages you know it comes but there's no point giving me iPads you can give it to someone who doesn't have privilege to own a mobile phone you know so that time I understood something that you know they are also the leadership also a little bit of running behind money I told my dad also but of course you know he never paid attention to all this because of the mask that he was on so

that was little bit like when I went I could sense it was not 100% genuine you know and I could see people behaving in such a way which is based on you know which is behind money and second time when I went they still remembered me after 7-8 years I went back to the office they still remember I think very less people they go and visit the office and of course my dad went he bought all the messages again there's a new copies of all his sermons you know my dad is not a digital person he's like old school he wanted to read from the book so he bought all the

messages again it was one year back since one year back also I was into the message but again to your question then I would say from what I know it's very very less maybe in thousands thousands and like max to max to 5 to 10,000 that's what I assumed I've done some studies, and it's very hard to prove the numbers because a lot of the people who worship random are worshipping in their homes.

So you might have this home family, but if you count the homes, there can't be that many, because if there were enough homes in a city, then the city would have a gathering and the gathering.

They would meet each other and communicate in a church setting. So you have to believe that it's only a small, small number. But that's just one of the things that woke me up was the fact that there were prophecies that had huge problems.

The other thing was ironically, like you said, the money and the culture. I don't know that many people besides you have talked about the culture on the podcast, but when you go to headquarters, it is the sudden shock that not many people experience who have never been there, because they're going thinking almost like Mecca.

I go to Mecca, it's this holy place, everybody's holy, the righteous, everybody's going to be so filled with the spirit, because they're right here in the city where all of this happen. And then you get there, and especially those who come from overseas to this location, and you find the cultures just entirely different than you expected.

In fact, in some ways, it's offensive to the cultures who coming here. And so they leave thinking, wait a minute, that doesn't feel right, it doesn't sit right with my soul. And then they leave.

The irony of this, because I'm an IT, and I work with other cultures. I had a cultural shell shock whenever I entered my first IT role, and I'm working with people from India and Pakistan, and I think we had one Egyptian, all kinds of different cultures.

And I realized that my red neck way of talking was offensive to people, and I had to change my language. So people who are in this movement, who are in leadership roles, should have that same ambition.

They should change their language to fit all of the multi-cultural aspects. But instead, they want to be hardcore, whatever it is they believe and have, and the culture they have, as though it's superior.

And that was really what bothered me when I, when my family moved to Jeffersonville, and I was watching this interaction, after me having been exposed to other cultures, I realized that this person is offending this person.

This person would like for them not to be offended, and the other person just simply doesn't care. And the doesn't care bothered me, it really did. So I'm one of the people who moved to Mecca and realized Mecca is not for me.

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I can relate to what you're saying, you know, when I watch, of course, you are very close to Brannum family, and my chain is like far behind. He was comparing to yours, but then I used to do the same thing when I was in school, you know, I was, so the area, the part I am from, a lot of Christians are there.

So it's like southern, most part of India, okay. So where a lot of British minister, you know, conversion happened. So I was going to a Christian school, most of the students who were there, you know, they were also Christians.

So we used to always argue with them and he used to say, Bible says this, but Brannum says this, you know, this is what it is. Have you ever read Brannum? You should read Brannum.

How can you ignore him, you know, he's the prophet from God, you know, he's the end of your, I always used to quote, you know, Malachi chapter four, right? You know, the prophet, prophet before the day of the Lord, there's a verse, no four, five and six.

And I used to always argue with my friends, you know, and defending Brannum, and they were like, you have Bible, why do you want to read about, you know, why, why do you want, why are you asking us to follow this book, rather than, you know, following the Bible, which is given to us, you know, by God.

But yeah, as when I was watching your YouTube videos, you know, I could always relate what you must have gone through. And more about my childhood, I would say the breaking point for me was, again, it was my dad only.

So it started from little argument in Bible studies, and it went to, so till 12th, I was with my parents, after that, you know, I was in a very home, I was in New Zealand, I was in Abu Dhabi for some time, I was in Delhi, so I was just going here and there, I was being with a lot of people, but then I was also a message really, I never smoked or, of course my dad's rule, I can't talk to girls, I can't go on a date, no alcohol and what do you call it? So I was following all that rules, whatever my dad was saying, but

it was just not enough for him, you know, once I was going out with one of my colleague, so he also works with me, my colleague, and my, so we are friends from 2019 to 2024-25, till date, the incident happened in 2024-25, so seven years of friendship, and of course if they plan for a dinner or lunch, they invite me and then I go with them to have dinner and then we talk about what happens this and there, and you come back, for me that is not wrong, but for my dad, it was wrong, the reason is there are girls also in that group, because fortunately in corporate

world, we have to work with female co-workers as well, so once I went out with one of my colleague, he was he, and then his wife, and one more female co-worker, she was married, okay, so we four of us went for lunch and somehow my mom came to know, and then my mom told my dad, and then my dad called me and then he was shouting at me saying, you know, you are a, you are spiritually dead, so you rather just go crash the car somewhere and I don't come back home, so that is when I was so upset,

because I love my dad so much, and I admire him, because he had done a lot of things for me and my brother and my sister, you know, so he paid a lot of money for my studies, my siblings' studies, so they are all well doing now, by God's grace, of course, but then my dad was shouting at me, saying, you know, don't go, don't, come home, you are spiritually dead and just go crash the car and just die, just for going out with friends for a lunch. And that is when it occurred me. So I didn't rape

anyone, I didn't drink alcohol or went and did something wrong or I was not smoking, I was not taking drugs, you know, I was not doing anything illegal. For something so small, he was reacting, unreasonable look, it's not proportion to the, the punishment doesn't fit the crime, you know. So that is when it triggered me, there is something wrong because the person who is very close to you who you love the most, you know, asking you to go and die for no reason, you know, after you did a lot to the family. I am also a human, you should treat me, I am not saying

that I am perfect, I am also imperfect, no one is perfect in front of God, that's why he died for a person and he, you believe in him and as it is written in the Bible, you love your God with all your hard mind and body and also you love your neighbors. You know, he had forgiven and just if someone forgive you, you know, for even you for 100 rupees, you can forgive someone for at least one rupee, you know, that he had forgiven us for a lot of sins that we had made or in our mind,

a lot of people love God with body, but not with mind and heart, you know, in this is not perfect, this is imperfect, this is also imperfect. So, but God had forgiven all this and it is all about love, but then I was, after that point, I started questioning everything from, you know, the entire childhood, I was never in, so when I go home, it was not love, you know, it was just fear.

My dad would say, this is okay, if I put on the TV, my dad would shout at me, so before my dad comes home, we'll just stand it off and then run and then, you know, pretend like we are studying, you know, so, so this is what we used to do. So, I was just thinking,

there was no love, you know, it was just fear. I know we have to worship and be Lord with fear and also love only with fear or you cannot you cannot you know worship or follow someone or do something to someone out of fear only you should it it should be both you know fear and love so I never felt that love from my child load that's when I realized and then started thinking uh doing my own research and uh found out uh look I I I never knew you you know I came out of that belief system on my own doing my own research and then two three

months back when I was just I've got I've got so I got I had some time I was just you know typing William Brennan false prophet and then a lot of videos came and I saw your videos and started watching all your videos especially your video with uh uh I think his name was Charles Paisley your friend uh he wrote two books I think I bought one book also it's there in Amazon kindle so yeah so I started watching your videos and the poor especially the documentary that you made uh by William Brennan so after watching all the documentary and it suddenly it all you know

started making sense and you know and then obviously I I always used to question my dad about this open seat also because uh we are Christians today in India that is because of the gospel that was you know the lot of people sacrificed their life for our salvation if you come to my hometown there are a there is a compound in that compound there are a lot of symmetry it is all people who died during a conversion you know like when they are trying to preach the gospel and something happened they died so it's like a memorial a lot of British people you know they died

for our salvation but if you look the world from the point of open seat it is like what is the point of spreading the gospel if you are already a son of uh um you know Adam and son of Lucifer what so if you are saved by the birth there is no what is a point you know

there is no point for we wouldn't have if British would have thought the same thing you know be I so open seats, you know, sorry, we are son of Adam and those Indian somewhere on the corner of the world, you know, they are all open seats, why should we go and die for them, you know, if they would have thought, we would have, I would have never became a Christian or I would have never, you know, God would have saved or the salvation I would have received, you know.

And for me, the most interesting part of this, because in my journey, there were a lot of things that I went through in my mind to start to come out of it, learning the false prophecies, learning the way that he just simply twisted truth about himself to make himself seem bigger.

That was really problematic for me because there's only one type of person who does this. And I, it didn't sit right with me, but then whenever I discovered, like you said, the anti-Semitism, the white supremacy, I was thinking exactly what you just said, if you're saved by your bloodline, then why do you even need the gospel?

It doesn't make sense. Only the hate groups do this. And then I started thinking about the other thing that you said, I know many, many people that describe their family relationships the same way.

There just simply wasn't much love. There was only fear in the children to the parents. When I first started noticing that there was a pattern, I thought, well, maybe it's just, maybe there's just a lot of parents who aren't very good people.

But then I started thinking about exactly what you said, the bloodlines, the white supremacy, the hate groups. And then I realized this is a doctrine that breeds hate. So it's children, as it breeds, will continue to breed hate.

When you're in that mindset, you start to think differently, not only about just the gospel and the people, but also even your own children. You want to hate the things that they might do that would be outside of your belief set.

And so you target your hatred at them, thinking that will change them. But that's not the way that Christianity works. Christianity teaches through love, not hate. Exactly. I never heard, you know, my dad talks about gospel or, you know, soul winning.

That I like in the US a lot. People actually believe in God, not for the money, but for a relationship with God. I think that is why United States is still number one country in the world, you know.

It's because of in a country of Sodom, just because of one family, God was protecting the entire country. It's like the few Christians in United States, you know. The blessing of God is still there, I would say.

And within this brannamism or within the people who follow the message, I've never seen someone giving more attention for importance for soul winning or preaching the gospel or feeling bad for your neighbor. Because there is no love, because from a message point of view, it is just, he's just another so upon seed, you know.

But if you remove that doctrine and you look at someone, he's also created like me or he's also created with the same image of God, and he can also be saved. So eventually you will try to influence them with your good works and try to win them over for God.

But then that thing is not there in message, you know, following people I would say or at least, I've never seen that in my dad or anyone who follows the message in my area at least.

And it's like if you read Matthew 23, Jesus talks about people paying more importance to gold and sacrifice than actual God. The sincerity in relationship with God is rather than don't watch TV, don't do this, don't go outside.

You stay inside the house, you do your work, that's it. You should not do anything. It's more about the doing, not the actual relationship with God, I would say. And yeah, it's not, I felt like it is not only a message or a message believing in this thing.

This spirit is there in a lot of other denominations also I would say. For example, as I said, you know, I watch a lot of YouTube videos for my own research or my own understanding, you know, God better.

I came across this, I think Stephen Anderson, he's a part of independent faithful independent Baptist church. something like that. He's his headquarters in Arizona, Phoenix. So he was, he has a lot of kids.

His four elder kids, you know, they just came out and told everyone that my parents were very abusive and you know, they were just, he used to beat my mom, he used to beat us, saying, again, quoting the words from Bible, you know, you should do this to your kid. But for what, you know, if if the kid is doing actual wrong, then you, you know, punish him so that he will not do it again. But then punishment should deserve, like, fit the crime, you know, that that was not there. It is just punishment, punishment, punishment for his own sake. I would say or he wanted the

children in a certain way. And to implement that, if I punish him often, my kids will be like this, you know, some, some believe they have, you know, it's, I would say it's, it's a different spirit or I don't know. So he has nothing to do with the message or any brinjal influence. But still, even though he's from Baptist background, he was also behaving in such a way that it's almost the same way, I would say. His kids, his own kids, you know, came out of his church. They came out of their house and, you know, started telling people about the abuses they were going through.

I feel like that is mainly because people, people as in everyone, including me or everyone, they wanted someone between God and himself, you know, in real Christianity, you don't need that. You, you can have a direct relationship with God. I stay alone in Mumbai, you know, and nobody is there. There is nobody to call me. And but still, I don't feel alone, you know, you can always have a relationship with the God, you know, because this whole spirit is inside you to guide you. And so you just, but a lot of people, they think they should be the middleman

between God and humans, you know, they think just because he follows certain rules and he thinks that he's superior to other humans, you know. And now, I am the leader, so you, I am close to God, this is what God says, you should do that.

And that spirit or that pride, it should not come into anyone's house, head and I think people also should not give too much importance to pastors, you know, you might not agree with me, but then he's also just a human, he, so he's also imperfect.

Church should be something like, all believers gather in a area and then worship God, church should be like that, but then these days, church is like, there's one guy who's superior than everyone and he's trying to preach everyone.

That will always lead to destruction, I think, in over a period of time, you know, because everyone is human, humans make mistakes, so we should be aware of that and we should have a direct relationship with God and obviously you gather with people and don't judge, you know, you love them, like how even though I am imperfect, God loves me, so even though, you know, that you are a neighbor is imperfect, you should love them, you know, you should give them the love that he doesn't deserve, so that is Christianity, I have never seen that in message following group.

If you could give advice to people who are still trapped in the message system, what advice would you give them? I think being faithful to God, talking to God, I think the Holy Spirit will guide you.

You can, there is no one way because everyone is born and born in a different background, you know, I don't know which incident or what incident would trigger you. I think God will create a situation that triggers the question and then just genuine relationship with God if you are trying to have, then obviously I think His Holy Spirit will lead you to the truth.

I can't say one way because I am also trying to figure out how I will tell my brother and how I am going to tell my sister because obviously they will not believe me, they will of course think my dad is right and I am wrong.

So I am also waiting for the answer, you know, time will give the answers, is there any triggering point for you like what trigger do you Like, is that what made you ask that first question?

Is there any incident that questioned your belief system? And how did you deal with it initially when you find out? Because I recently found out. And because that is what made sense for what happened in my life.

And so, is there any triggering point for you? Like, what incident made you question your belief in the message? For me, there were a series of severely traumatic experiences back to back that just were happening.

And it was causing me to be so shaken. And the thought was occurring to me that we're supposed to be protected from all of this. We're told that we are the little bride, we're the elite, we're the ones who will be raptured.

And we're under the protection of God for all of these things that can happen to us. And then they happened. And how do you explain this? And so, what happens is when you have severely traumatic experiences, your brain tries to reconcile what happened with your situation.

Through that reconciliation, I started just as simply examining my faith. And I realized that I didn't really understand why I believed what I believed. And I started looking into it and realizing that I should have looked into this years ago because none of it really makes any sense and large parts of it are just truly false.

So, I went on this journey basically because I had suffered through some trauma. Now, other people who are in the support groups who have talked about their leaving, they came to similar conclusions based off of experience that you've talked about.

Maybe family didn't treat them as they should have, or maybe the people in the church weren't as Christian to outsiders as they should have been. There's usually a trigger for people whenever it challenges their core belief set.

And that's really, if you're working with somebody and you're trying to help them escape, that's what you need to do. You need to find what is the thing that they truly believe most. And is it really compatible with the message?

Because nine times out of ten, you're going to find that those two are usually incompatible. There's not much that is compatible with a hate group. So, thank you so much for doing this. Thank you. It was nice talking to you.

Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at William-Branum.org. For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR.

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