Inside World Harvest Church And The Word Of Faith Machine

Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Browns. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Browns' Historical Research at William-Brandom.org and with me I have my very special guest, Kenneth Barrager, former member of the Way and current member of the World Harvest Church.

Ken, it's good to have you on and to talk through both the Way and World Harvest Church and everything in between. I'm actually a little bit excited. I've not talked to anybody who had any connection with the Way and I know yours wasn't that much but want to get into that a little bit and deliverance ministry and so many other things.

So maybe if you could begin by telling everybody a little bit about yourself. Well, my name is Ken Barrager. I go back in and I live in Western Kentucky and so I'm currently 60 years old and so I spent 22 years in the military have been around a lot of places.

I tend World Harvest Church in Paduca. I've been there for almost 21 years, started all around September of 2005 when we moved back from the military. I know we first got there was called Grace Church International. We renamed it in 2012 to World Harvest Church of Paduca to kind of, I guess, Mirror of World Harvest Church of Marietta in California.

And the horse that was started by Ed DeFran is now around by his wife Nancy DeFran and their children. And so I said prior to that was Grace Church International. So just to kind of give you an outline where I guess some of my whole type stuff started.

We joined Anway in our 1993 got into that and we got into all the books and the tapes and the meetings and all of that type of stuff. You know, the dream. I mean, they were just always teaching us how to look forward and the object was money.

Okay, I mean, it's almost the same exact plan as word of faith movement. I mean, it's exact. Listen to the books and tapes all the time by all of this stuff. Do all this travel, go to all these meetings and all these trips and it was just constant.

And of course, I got sick during that time. I got positive lymphoma cancer and had to attend treatments, chemo radiation. and treatments for about a year. And I just kind of dwindled out of Amway because nobody really seemed to care that I was going through this at the time.

Or that did, somebody did send me $300 in the mail and honestly, which was nice. And I don't know who that was. But anyway, that was kind of like the first start of that.

You know, Dexter Jagger, he was running that at the time. I mean, we even had a conference down in Atlanta and George Bush senior was the speaker. There it was pretty motivating, you know, to go to that and see that.

But like I said, that was my first cult-like experience. Then in 1994 in the spring, my wife was working the guy that was on my team, his wife. And we were in Fort Campbell Kentucky.

And so she started talking to my wife and teaching her about the way international and Bible study and she was spending time with her. And my wife started planting seeds in me and some of those seeds were about tithing and things like that.

And so we didn't really tie the anybody during that time that she was telling me about it. And so I told them, said, look, I want to go to this Bible study. I want to do this thing because I was having some personal struggles in my life with all the deployments and you know, desert storm, all these, all these types of things.

And so, and this was just prior to the cancer hitting me. And so I agreed to take this Bible course. And I think it was like three or four weeks and we would do it like every afternoon for like three or four hours.

And it was just a really in depth Bible study and we were really excited about it. I mean, we had Dr. Victor Paul Werewell, I know you call him Werewell, but his name was Dr. Victor Paul Werewell.

And you know, he was, you know, linked up with George Lombs of the Lombs of Bible. We had a Lombs of Bible, we were studying all that. And but it was just a really good Bible study and we were just learning a lot.

It was motivating to learn that much about the Bible because the church that I grew up in, I learned things, but it just didn't really learn that much. Of course, my parents divorced when I was about 14 and we just kind of, and my mother just kind of quit going to church.

And so, 1999, we started going to a Baptist church there in Old Grove Kentucky. And that was a good church and we really enjoyed that. And then in 2000, we moved away to Fayetteville, North Carolina.

And we started going to Manage Church. You know, it was kind of an inter-dominational church. I think they believed in speaking in tongues and they would fly flags up, you know, people with the flag dancers up front, things like that.

But it wasn't really weird or nothing that I could tell at the time. Everything seemed kind of normal. The, we became usheres there and when we, you know, we wanted to do our part there.

We went there for about two years. And then, you know, we came back to Fort Campbell after our time. there and we went to, actually we went to Fort Bliss, Texas and we hopped around different churches there until we found one we liked and then we came back to Fort Campbell and we went back to the Baptist Church and we went to before we went there for a couple years.

Then I retired from the military and we went back to West Kentucky and my cousin was attending the church, a great church international and so my wife was very excited about going as it's kind of similar to the things that we had seen at Manna but we really didn't know.

So we were excited and we we went up there and we went to the church and so we became members after probably just a couple of months and we did a couple of church moves and moved out to we're currently located there in West Paduca and so I was an usher there at World Harbor Church and other things.

So that's basically the gist of where we're at now, been there for 21 years. I did talk to a former church member that found out that one of the previous bachelors there at a grace church before he moved was a manna by name is Zach Strong and he had had a affair with a lady there and and it was a big ordeal I don't I don't want to say a big ordeal but his wife didn't really want this to be known because this him being a pastor was his livelihood and so I guess he left the church with over $200,000 to believe

and go start at church and came to Ardon, Missouri. He's been to some meetings since then a few times and he seems like a good guy, I mean everybody I mean there's a lot of people that we see in the Christian faith that that fall from grace even pastors and things like that so then there was another pastor that came in after that and they said he was very mean and just you know wasn't a good person like and he left the church with $30,000 and he had he left he said that was his severance

pay for leaving. So anyway it's just little information you get over the years but I do remember one of the first sermons that we got, don't of the church there in Paducah when it was in Paducah before he moved was it was a church about the one thing I really got from it is who am I to correct the man of God it was basically like everything the man of God said was the way it was and you didn't have any part or way to correct them and it was kind of odd because during that time we had a church locally that you know when I was

growing up they called it the Jim Jones Church this guy kind of looked like Jim Jones and I remember Jim Jones when I was a kid and all of that thing but so this guy kind of looked like Jim Jones calling Jim Jones Church he wasn't a pinnacle of church or anything like that but the guy ended up taking his own life about the time that we got back and I was all the way in I remember all the stories I heard about the church and I was like man this is how he did it this is how this is the recipe that he used to do it but I

didn't wasn't really I guess smart enough to see that at that time and and then I started traveling a lot overseas started working overseas and really didn't really get to know a lot of people in the church for a few years and so I've told her 2012 just to back up but at World Harvard church that's the first time I ever met Ed DeFran and it's the first time I've seen him and I'll see him and his wife Nancy DeFran and he came out and of course our pastor kind of got linked up with him during that time was he became our pastor's father in the

faith as as you hear so much in the Pentecostal purpose so to back back up about that just a little tidbit of information about Jim Jones I had a guy that I was an army with and he was in a great registration in the late 70s in the army of course that is for handling the dead and the dead on the battlefield and getting them to back to the states or whatever and he had he got called out and they had to go down to the Jonestown massacre and he was telling the story about recovering all the 900 plus bodies there at Jonestown and how horrible

it was and he was telling very graphic stories about that and of course he was like a private in the army and you know that's just a first time and a count that I heard from someone that was there you know there are so many different connections you've already mentioned that I want to explore that we actually couldn't fit it all into the same podcast and I'll start with this you you mentioned how I talk about we're willy I did not know how to pronounce the name and I got online and I found different people pronouncing it and somebody

actually corrected me and said that I was pronouncing it the wrong way I was pronouncing a we're will and I said no that's not it it's we're willy and scratch my head because I didn't know I could find both ways and I apparently chose the wrong one because I had the wrong input and I've said it that way for probably five years now since I came in contact but I did come in contact with this because this was one of these weird it wasn't off shoot of branemism but branemism attracted all of these weird different sects and

that was one of the people you can find branem talking about him on recording so you've got all of this weirdness and so you mentioned the Jones connection and you mentioned um I don't know if you mentioned it or if I I mentioned it in one of the previous recordings about this but the church that you're in World Harvest Church is connected to Leicester Somrall Leicester Somrall is connected to the, basically the inception of what started the cascade of events that led to Jim Jones being a Pentecostal minister.

So you've got all of that weirdness, and I mean so many different ties, but the funniest of all that you've mentioned and I really need to do a podcast about this is the Amway Connection.

There's Amway, there's Shackley, there's all these different money-making schemes, these money pyramids. It was just yesterday I recorded with another lady who came out of a similar group and she got sucked into Amway, and I remember growing up, I can't tell you how many different people that I knew that was in this.

This kind of mentality, we weren't even in the prosperity gospel side, we were in the precursor to prosperity gospel, but it bore so many similarities that there were people trying to find all kinds of get rich schemes because God is on our side and we're going to get it by Golly.

And so Amway is one of those get rich schemes. Well if you go back before Brannemism was created, the clan itself was a money-making pyramid. The guys at the top were basically raking in millions of dollars, way back in the 20s, right?

So the whole thing was created from its inception as a money-making tool, but they were packing all of these different ideologies in with it, religion and all kinds of other things. Well once you train people on that hierarchy of how money works, the hierarchy of how religious, authoritarian, control works, all of it fits together in these, it's like gears in a watch.

They're all spinning just perfectly in time to make everybody work and obey the man of God, like you said. So all of these pieces fit together, I would love to explore all of them, but I guess we'll just pick one or two, the victor, we're will, and I'm trying to say it correctly this time, that church does interest me, I've not dug into it as deeply as I want and their background, but what I want specifically, and I'm going to try to get this out of you in this podcast, the framework of doctrine that they had, although it wasn't Brannemism,

it was something that was compatible with Brannemism. And people who get into that mindset, now they're compatible with other different groups that really are working and operating, it's like we're the gears, when I'm talking about the gears in the watch, they'll fit together, right?

You've got one doctrine that fits with this other doctrine and now you've got this gear that turns. And I'd like to explore that just a bit, but World Harvest Church obviously, we've got to talk about that.

We moved into our new church of West Paduk in October of 2012, and of course Ed DeFrain was coming quite often to the church, and he was columnist, we were going to church at our one location, we were sharing with the church, we were going on Saturdays and Tuesday nights.

And of course, And I actually, at times, you know, with Dr. Ed DeFrame, was, was, uh, fun to be around. He was entertaining. Uh, you know, I got to like him. Uh, so, uh, he called us the seventh, uh, seventh day Adventist at one time, because we went to church on, on Saturday. It was, it was kind of funny, but he was, he was laughing joke about that. But anyway, uh, but, uh, we moved out into Alex said in 2012 and we did our church, uh, dedication in December 2012. Well, in Dr. Ed DeFrame's, uh,

travels, he had went to Alaska and I knew his pilot, uh, Mitch Morgan that, that flew him around. And, uh, they wanted me to, they didn't want me to, but they had seen this beaver blanket or, uh, up in Alaska. It was like $10,000. And so, uh, they were, they were telling my wife about it. And so, uh, I said, well, I was a trapper and I, I came back home, I retired on the military and I started trapping because we had a beaver problem on the farm and I started, you know, trapping them. And I said, well, hey, I said, I could probably

help him out with that. I could probably catch enough beaver to make a blanket and, and to back up a little bit, I, you know, when I first met Ed DeFrame, I really didn't trust him because something my cousin says, he's like, I did not trust that man.

And of course, she only went for about maybe another few months and left the church and we don't know why she left. But, um, uh, so I said, well, I'm just going to do this. I didn't really want to. So I'm just going to do this out of faith, you know, and, uh, so I caught, you know, 30 beaver and I took the best 18 and I sent off and had this blanket made.

And, uh, uh, it was very beautiful. We got it in time for the church dedication and we gave it, we presented it to him and, um, like December, 2012. And it cost me over a thousand dollars just to do it.

And it didn't get very, very many people didn't help me out with it. I think I think our pastor helped a little bit on the cost, uh, but didn't get a lot of help. And just to mention all the work that went into that outside the cost of the blanket, it was just, uh, to catch all the beaver and all the gas and all that kind of stuff. And so we presented it to him and of course, they told me I said, uh, oh, well, if you give something to the prophet, they were calling him the prophet, you get a prophets reward.

Now, I never really knew what the prophets reward was, but they were just telling me out, blessed I was going to be by doing all of this and everything. And, uh, so that was just one thing, uh, that I did trying to, you know, you know, always use the term, well, you're not thinking right.

You know, when I was always questioning, well, I'm not thinking right. I'm not thinking about, about these things. And so I just did it. And so, uh, so we became quite close to Mitch Morgan, the pilot and Dr. Ed Friend.

I would, I was going to make and trips to California and I would go to their church. out there. And so he knew me. And so I would see him. And he would talk to me a little bit.

But then he died in October, just a little over a year later, October of 2013 and a plane crash. So I think he was flying out of Texas, the Wichita or vice versa, something like that.

Him and his pilot brother Mitch Morgan died in that plane crash. So then our pastor decided to appoint Deacons and he appointed several Deacons in the church. We didn't have any at the time.

He was concerned about an accident happening in with him and somebody being able to take over the church. And so, so that's what we did. But like I said, I became close to them and the word of faith issues. But and then over the years, you know, his wife, Nancy DeFrancook, but she was already preaching at that time. She was given a lot of meetings and I seen someone I would attend their church out in California in Marietta before he passed away. And so, so she started coming on giving meetings after his death. And so for the last five years,

she's been doing a miracle crusade at our church. And because of the Jesus, the healer, miracle crusade. And of course, after listening to many of your podcasts talk about I think it's FF Bosworth, it wrote Jesus, the healer and all the connections to the clan and just all of this stuff. I mean, it's just been and Jim Jones. It has been, you know, I heard a guy on one of your podcasts earlier today talking about how much he learned about the pastoral background that he did going to his Berean church ministry. And it's just how much information is out there that we don't

get through the church. You know, we, you know, sometimes you like to good the bad and the ugly, you know, I'm a big Western TV buff. And so we know in the Bible that it tells about the good, the bad and ugly with all the patriarchs in the Bible. But we don't get the good, the bad and ugly with all the people in the Pentecostal church. They hide a lot of that and they cover a lot of that up. I know we could, we could just spend days talking about that. So I'm going to talk about

one of one of the ugliest because you said it and that straight out of brandemism. If you give to a prophet, you'll get a prophets reward. Think of me. So I, I ran my own business for 15, 20 years and I had different people working for me, different employees and contractors.

Imagine me as a boss telling one of the employees, if you give your boss a gift, you'll get a boss as reward. And they start giving me stuff. What kind of a boss would I be, man? That's really what he did. He presented himself as a prophet. He says, if you give to a prophet, you'll get a prophets reward. So everybody starts giving them stuff, right? I mean, it's your living like a king, why would you do this?

What kind of religious man does this? And that's exactly what he did. He set the pace by doing that. Because now everybody's watching him do this. And then you've got all these connivers. Some of the people were truly in it, I believe, for good purposes.

They really believed in God. They really were trying to do their best. But you had these other people that really weren't. And they're watching how all of this works and they're seeing these gears move, right?

Huh, you give a profit, you give a profit reward. I wonder what I can get. So they start doing the same kind of things. It's my opinion, and I'll stick to my opinion other people might have the hairs.

But I believe that is how the prosperity gospel actually spun off. Because people started to see how you could do this to people. And they would just freely give them their money. And so the prosperity gospel was birthed.

So one of the things I emailed you about was the fact that Nancy DeFrain, and she talks about this openly, that she bought Amy Simple McPherson's, I guess it's her summer vacation home there.

I guess it's close to Marietta, I'm not exactly where it's at. But she bought that. And after learning and watching many videos about some videos heard about grave soaking, I thought it was kind of odd that in a kind of odd sort of way that she would buy her home.

And I can, you know, I'm a historical guy. I like history. But there's a uniqueness of history. But when you go back and you study, Amy Simple McPherson, the one thing that blows me away that she like disappeared for like five weeks because she was having some kind of affair with some guy.

And she's fake that she was kidnapped and all this. And I'm like, oh my gosh. You know, unless you dig, sometimes you just don't find that stuff. And it's crazy that, you know, when you get around young people, it's not saying young people are dumb or anything.

It's just they don't know what they don't know. And when you get somebody that's 30 year younger then you start telling them stories. And we have this that happen at work. A lot of times where we talk this, you know, we ask this girl about things that she doesn't know.

And so they just don't know what they don't know. And so there's so much history that can get just covered up with time unless there's something written about it. And you have a lot of documentation and a lot of your research.

But like I said, she had the maybe historical uniqueness there. And I just see Amy Simple McPherson as an idol maybe in a lot of these people's minds. Just like, you know, all the God's generals, all of these people are idols to these people.

And I see it within my own church and how they idolize Nancy DeFrain and Ed DeFrain and others in the God's generals. And we know we're not the worship idols. But. Uh, you know, you have to go back to when I was in Iraq in 2004, uh, time frame, uh, we were had the opportunity to visit some biblical sites over there.

You know, they claim that there was a tomb of the prophets there in Kirkuk, Iraq, and I went to it a couple of times, supposedly Daniel was buried there and Mishak, and I think Hosea.

And also there's a place they're called Baba Gerger, which means Father Fire, and they say that that's the original site of the fiery furnace. It's just, it's, uh, methane gas or gas just comes up out of the ground and it burns all the time.

It will be in a different location every day when you come back and you can stand right out in the middle of it. It's kind of, it's kind of unique, but I think they had a furnace there, possibly if that's the site.

But anyway, the, the, the chaplain that was there, the Catholic chaplain that was explaining about the, uh, why Daniel was there and all of that. But, you know, one of the stories that we heard that the, the bath party back in the 60s or whatever, is they came in and they got the Cuxus bone, the tailbone of Daniel, and they pulled that out of this tomb and all these big natural disasters started to happen and it really scared them.

And so they put it back. And then you have, you know, we're talking about Graysocking, then you have the story in, in second Kings where it talks about where Alisha, they buried him in the tomb.

This guy died and they put him down with, within the tomb and he connected with the bones of Alisha and he was brought back to life. And then, uh, so I don't know if there's, uh, then you have Moses where it talks about how his body was to be, his grave site was to be secret and God buried him there.

And it was to be secret, not to be a, like a shrine or a religious idol, uh, for them. I'm just assuming that. And you'll see a lot of other things about bones in the body like, you know, Daniel's bone or, uh, Joseph's bones was brought out of Egypt, but that was just something that he asked him to do because he was a son of Israel and he just returned to Egypt to the Promised Land or not Egypt to Israel.

Um, so there's, I don't know if there's something in ancient, you know, culture that's something about the bones or, or of profits, uh, I haven't done a lot of research in that. I don't know what you, what you know about that.

I've mentioned a few times on the podcast that I'd love to go over to Louisville, Kentucky. I live just right across the river. So I can soak on Colonel Sanders grave and learn how to make better fried chicken.

But it just simply doesn't work. You know what I mean? Yeah. The, I've studied it a little bit, but not from the Christian aspect because this wasn't, this isn't really a practice that you find a lot of in Christianity.

You do, if you read through the Bible, you've mentioned some passages. There are some that kind of sound like this, but usually it's with the ancestral cults in the end. Astro cults, they worship the dead.

There's all these celebrations, and you can get blessed by the dead. It's one of the reasons why some of the horror films will talk about the dead, and they come back to haunch all of this kind of stuff.

Well, that comes from that lineage. It doesn't usually come from a Christian lineage, but it is fascinating. And what happened is, during the spiritualist craze in the United States, as everybody's trying to communicate with the dead, and this actually gets quite popular.

So our author, author Conan Doyle, came over to the United States to do seances, and that's why we don't have so many Sherlock Holmes books. But it was a widely popular craze, and there were certain people who tried to capitalize on that for the benefit of, or the so-called benefit of Christianity.

One of them being William Branham's mentor, and we have evidence that William Branham himself went to one of these spiritualist camps. So you can see it's kind of merging and evolving. Well, the way it shifted was that Christianity can do these things because the ancient spirits of evil can do these things.

If they can do it, we can do it too. And it just kind of evolved into this weird thing where now you see people, you've probably seen the videos of the, they come here to Jeffersonville, and the so-called Branham's grave, trying to catch something.

And one guy says, who I feel the power or something like this, and I've been there. I know that you don't feel anything when you're there, but there are people that do it, and there are people frequently, I'll drive by that pyramid too, and I'll see people either bowing down, praying to it, or all kinds of weird stuff.

Although it has decreased a bit now that, now that it's become known that this was a cult, but it doesn't seem to be a Christian practice, I guess, at the bottom line. Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started, or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism, transition through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation?

You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, William-Branham.org. On the book's page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio and digital versions of each book.

You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top.

And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching. On behalf of William-Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.

You know, I was watching some videos about Benny Hinn and he goes and visits Catherine Coolman's grave, quite often. And... So I don't know if he lays down on the grave or not, I didn't show him doing that, but he's even said, I think he even said in the video that he goes there and visits quite often.

You have to wonder why does he go visit her grave? I mean, I don't know. But it just seems kind of odd. So I do know that Benny Hinn is kind of this Southwest Believer's conference.

He has been doing there with Bill Johnson from Bethel and of course Kenneth Copeland, they're all there together. And of course Nancy DeFrain is attending that. And I was watching in the one where Kenneth Copeland, he said that he was gonna die at 120 years.

I think his birthday is December 6th, but he predicted that he would not die until 120 years, December 6th, 2056. I think that is the actual date that he predicted. So, but anyway, it's just some very interesting things about the bones and things like that, or frequent places.

We know that people like to go to the Holy lands of walk where Jesus walked and visit those sites. I mean, I can see that. But it was kind of odd because when you watch Kenneth Copeland, he's always talking, he'll be talking and he'll say, oh, Father, what's that you're saying God?

And he's like his God's talking him up there while he's preaching. And so, it was kind of funny because we've had several,

we had Jerry Saville come to our church a couple of times. Of course, he died here a few years ago. But Nancy DeFrain ended up getting his plane and that he had. And so, he was always up there telling stories about giving and how he give here and give there and how he's given planes away and all this stuff was just like a psychological preparation to get people to give in the end.

And it's just all, it's just talks so much about money. But anyway, I thought it was kind of odd that Kenneth Copeland being so spiritual and having discernment and all of this thing, he kept telling Nancy DeFrain that when he would meet with her, that you need to get a plane, you need to get a plane.

And he didn't even know that she was going to get Dr. Jerry Saville's plane. He would have thought he would have known that if he was that spiritual and connected. But there's several things that Nancy DeFrain quotes that I've heard over the years.

She always uses the quote is how you respond. All right. And that's what's going on to the service, whether it be healing, whatever it is, slaying the spirit and you're experiencing the flow of the spirit, I remember going to her church and she would go down the aisles and grab the, everybody would join hands, and she would grab the hands of people.

And when she grabbed the hands, everybody would fall out in the seats and I would be holding the hand of my eye. I would, fall out. So it's like, what's, what's happening? Why, you know, why am I not feeling something or where you feel like a jolt of electricity is going to go through you? And so, and so she, you know, I kept thinking about that. It's how you respond. And so I remember one time in our church, a hands relayed on me and I thought, well, I'm just going to respond. I'm just going to fall back and let them catch me. And I did. And I felt no different, whatever. But the people

were observing and they said, Oh, boy, you were really slain in the spirit. You were just slain and I'm like, man, how far from the truth is that? You know, they just, it's like people see that and they believe it. And so, you know, I just kept thinking, how was it responding correctly?

And so I just kind of learned that that's just kind of a word of faith coup-laid, you know, that they put out there. You know, another one that you always commonly says is money is always the issue. And I see this as a double-sided issue because I think the biggest problem of money issue is on their side, okay? Because you have the money and they want it. And they're going to do whatever they can to convince you to give it by the end of the service. And they're, I mean, they're going to do different tricks to try to get you to do that. We, if the deliverance conference

or deliverance conference, at the Miracle Crusade last year, there was a guy who was playing the keyboard up there. And he said that he had gotten $50,000 for his time working for different ministries for, you know, for, I guess, pay, you know, $50,000. They have this thing called the double-up offering. And I think it's unlike that Thursday or Wednesday or Thursday. So you're going to save your offering and you're going to give double the amount for the offering.

And so he had this $50,000 check. And he gets up there on the keyboard and says, hey, says I got this $50,000. I'm going to give this $50,000 back to the ministry and I'm going to add $50,000 to that. And I mean, it's just constant brainwashing of people to get them to give money.

And I mean, that was just a blatant thing to get people to get money. And one of the things that really got to me was she got it there. And she was, to me, it was like she was bragging.

She's like, I have four houses. And I'm like, oh, wow. And so, so what am I, why do I need to give you any money if you got four houses? And, but they don't ever tell you what they do with the money. I mean, I don't know. But I mean, I guess she's got the house there, Mirrietta, that she originally had with with Docker Ed DeFrain. And she has an Amy Simple McPherson's home. And she has a house in Texas. And I think to be close to Kenneth Copeland. And I'm not sure where else she

has a home. But she always uses that term money is always an issue. And I think like I said, it's always seems to be a very issue. Another term that she says all the time is all the money you make is not your money. Okay. And she uses that all the time, like, Hey, you should give us your money. It's just a constant psychological preparation of the mind that all your money is not your money. And so you need to give me your money.

You need to offer your money. And this is not just the tithe because we're supposed to tie through our local church, you know, which we do, but they want everything above and beyond that. So, you know, one of the things that she said during one of the church services was, yeah, if you're giving an offering, if you don't have anything to give, just put an empty envelope into the offering thing. And so I'm thinking, well, when I was at work, so if I know that John, John over here, he's having problems financially. And I look over

and I see John putting something in the offering. Well, hey, John's having a hard time financially. He's believing for a breakthrough financially. So if he's going to give, well, I'm going to definitely give. And so I'm going to give. And so it's just like I said, it's just psychological preparation. And that's really the gimmick, right? If you can convince the people that the money is not their own, that it's God's, but then also convince them that you are the interface between God and man. Well, you give God your money. You're going to give these leaders the money.

A gift to a prophet gets a prophets reward. It's really the same exact concept. They just spin it in different ways. And I still, I'll go back to what kind of person does this. I could never have done that in any situation I can think of. I would never have done that in normal situations.

But more than that, if you're outside of the church world and you're in a situation like this, I mentioned my employees a few minutes ago. Picture yourself as the employee in your boss asks you to do this. You can be like, heck no, man. You can pay me if you want. I'm not going to pay you.

That's the mindset. That's the critical thinking that you have when you're not in the church environment, but in the church environment, you shut off all critical thinking. And more than that, they want you to shut off critical thinking. They want you to block your critical thought. Because then if you can block their critical thought, you can get right into their pocketbook.

That's where the come is. You're not thinking right all the time. I was always wondering why I wasn't experiencing all of these manifestations of the spirit. I really didn't understand. They would explain it. Of course, they'd say it's how you respond. Am I supposed to go running around the church? I'm going to still start dancing all crazy. You feel like, and I've heard a lot of people in the comments section. People say, you have a lack of faith because you don't experience these things. People are damaged by that. A lot of people are leaving Christianity

because of those instances that we're talking about. One of the things that our pastor, used to always give, we would have a pastor coming down. He was from New Albany and Indiana by the way. And I found that quite ironic that he is a word of faith preacher in New Albany, Indiana, which is right next to Jeffersonville, where William Brandham started. And I found that kind of ironic that that's the location there. But anyway, he would give, he would always talk about honoring the prophet. And how are you going to honor the prophet when he comes here? And it's a psychological preparation. It really comes down to the offering.

You know, your mind starts wondering, well, how can I honor the prophet? Well, I can give him some money. You know, that's the easiest thing and let him do with it what he wants.

And so you always hear that. And of course, you'll hear, oh, you can give, you can give $100 and you'll be blessed. If you get, if you give a thousand dollars, you'll even be more blessed.

And it always seems like a lot of times that he's offering. They really like the thousand dollar offering. You know, of course, they're going to have to change that to something because of the way, you know, it's getting, you know, the cost of things. But I mean, I've just seen a lot, I've written a lot of notes on these things. And like I said, your podcast have opened my eyes to some areas and just what I've experienced in life. You just seemed like there's just, I mean, you know, it comes to me that the American people are probably the most scammed people on the

face of the earth, just all the scammers on the internet and phone calls and things like that and our churches. I mean, it is with with the word of faith movement with all the people down the Pentecostal line. I mean, we were just scammed so much. It is really pathetic. And I guess that's, I mean, I just look at animals in the modern snake old sales room. And I've heard you talk that before and I've come up with that on my own in my own mind. But it's good to, you know, when you start watching some podcasts and things to know that what you're thinking,

your critical thinking is in line with lots of other people. Okay, it's very comforting that you're not crazy, that you're thinking is, you know, right, that it's is in line with normalcy. That's one of the beautiful things I think about the social media. None of this really would have existed before you had all the people listening to podcasts and the Facebook where people are commenting. It's ironic to me that once that began to happen, you started seeing preachers who are preaching against Facebook and against Twitter, these kind of things. That's the devil. That's where the devil gets you. Well, no, that's where people can communicate and they can each learn

to critically think together. That is the devil that they're referring to. Well, I like, you know, Chenle Roth, sometimes he talks about the scriptures and how they, you know, misrepresent scriptures, Do that and then you go back and then the one that they use quite often is it is talking about the false profits and the false teachers that are coming to steal and destroy it's not really talking about the devil. I know that stuff is of the devil, but they use that scripture that it is, you know, that's the devil they're talking about but it's talking about the false teacher and the profit and in sense it's talking about them.

They're telling you about them, but they're they're deflecting that is the devil and so that's just kind of how I see that. You know, and for me, one of the real things that I see is just devastating. When you look back at the way all of this began, we've talked about the spiritualism that entered into it, you've got the money making schemes that's entering into it, you've got the mindset where the people are there to serve the leadership instead of the opposite direction.

It's one of the things channel Ross hits pretty hard, I think, whenever he's talking. Well, in that environment, they don't really care so much about the people who are in need, yet it was a healing revival attracting people who are desperately in need.

These are the people who are in most need in the country and they're coming into these things, being told that if you believe, if you positively confess, you can be healed of all these diseases and afflictions and the battery average of the actual healings was like 5%.

It was next to nothing, but you have all of these masses of people coming believing that if I can just get my family there, they won't die, things like that, and yet people did die. And for me, that is just devastating to think what a family would go through.

Yeah, they always use that scripture where the woman with the issue of blood, if I can just touch the garment, his garment, I can be healed and they use that scripture a lot. And that's just like these people who are traveling for long distances to these healing meetings where these people, they say they have special endowments to heal certain things, and so they travel there.

And I think that requires a lot of faith to come there. I mean, obviously they've spent a lot of time in sickness with their problem. It may be, I mean, even if, you know, when I went through chemo and radiation for a year, I mean, that was a long time for me. I mean, that's a long time. It was quite miserable.

And so when people go years with this issue, I mean, they're looking to get healed and they have the faith to get healed, but they don't get healed and they say, well, it's your lack of faith.

You know, we have two people in our church that's been for probably 10 years or better, and the one boy has been, he's been crippled since birth. I mean, he can't function at all. I mean, he can't speak. He can't see. He can't hear. I mean, he is just an invalid.

And we have another guy that was injured in an accident. I think he was 25 years old. And he was injured. That's a injury similar to what Christopher Reeve had, you know, following off the polo pony.

And he can walk some... times, but it's just very hard for him. But they go up to the healing line many times. And it was just about every time we have a special meeting where healing line is formed and they'll go up. And it's been several times that they'll pray over them and they'll pray that they'll be healed in Jesus' name. But then they'll say, well, what you need is a miracle? And that's the hardest thing I haven't been able to understand. Well, I thought any healing was a miracle. You know, explain it like, well, not just every

healing is a miracle. And so I have a hard time wrapping my head around how they explain that. But these, I mean, these men are still in their real tears today. And I mean, I hope they get healed. I would love to see that. I mean, I would love to see them get up and walk normally. I mean, that would be a great thing. I mean, what glory could God get from that? You know, seeing that. Those things really bothered me. And worse, you found that they were giving examples of people who were healed who actually weren't so

that they could boost your faith so that you would give them the money. And then you could feel like you're going to be healed because this other guy was healed to find out that the other guy wasn't was just devastating. I remember when I was going through the newspaper articles, just reading some of the accounts, even the most famous healings in the movement, the person died of the diseases that they came to be healed of. And when I, when I discovered this, I was like, this, this just can't be right. Why are they telling people they're healed when they're not? And it all comes back to if you can convince

the people to believe and not believe in God, but believe in you as the healer, there's no telling what you can do to this person. They're always telling stories and their meetings and things, but they tell stories about how people that have, you know, pins and rods and screws and stuff in their body, how they'll just dissolve. And how some person had like a rod in their back and they prayed over them and they went to the doctor. And it was a hinge in there where the rod was. So it would bend. And, you know, just outrageous

claims like that. But there's no, there's no proof. There's no X-rays. There's no doctors coming in and saying, no affidavits that are written, no witness statements or anything to verify any of this stuff. I mean, I, I hear all the stories all the time, but it's just telling the story time, time again, doesn't make it true. And, but I've never witnessed any of this stuff except, you know, I did witness the leg lengthening one time. And it was a guy. He was about 90 years old in our church and he went up and he said, and

so it was a minister there. And, and I actually, I was standing there and I seen the leg lengthen. And I told a friend of mine that I worked with later. I said, hey, I seen this. And he goes, no, you know, that's a trick. He says, there's got to be something to that and some kind of trick or whatever. Well, then listening to your podcast, if that's an old magician's trick.

you know, of course, magicians, what do they do? They pass around all their tricks to full people. And of course, so then our pastor was like, well, the last healing crusade with Nancy DeFran, that she imparted to me a, you know,

an endowment to lengthen legs. And so he says, is anybody in here? And he hadn't used any, he kind of said, I haven't used it. I've kind of, it's been six a month ago.

I haven't used it at all. And so he called people forward to lengthen legs. And when I heard that, I was like, oh, man, this is the trickery or whatever. But there was a young man that did come forward.

And he had had a parachute accident. And he had, you know, Army, we called it a, you know, a partial malfunction where you have any lift capability, you come in, you crash down. And he injured his one leg.

And he had a bunch of surgeries. He got processed out of the army. I'm sure he got 100% retirement on that. And he said he went through all these surgeries and I did take, you know, medication drugs, you know, for the pain.

But he went up there and our pastors, you know, didn't know anything about it. But, you know, supposedly he was healed. And I hope he was healed, you know? And not to take anything away from him.

But the leg length thing, you know, I did an internet search later on. And I found that 60 to 90% of people that said to have one leg longer than the other, okay? Now, most of the time, it's just a minimal amounts of inches that it's, you know, a difference.

Some may be one inch or more. But yeah, I wish that really turned me off right there when, you know, he said that. And not to discredit the healing for the young man. I'm happy and I hope that is true and accurate and good.

So do you have any advice for people who are trapped in this kind of movement and can't get out either they can't critically think or they're just simply, they can critically think but they're afraid to escape?

What advice would you give them? I remember when we first joined the church and the pastor got up there and talked to me. One of the things that he advises for us is to not follow any other doctrine or talk to anybody else from another church to, you know, don't listen to any other preachers, anybody outside your camp, basically.

And I think that's dangerous. So I would think that if you have questions about what you're being taught, you know, one thing that I did learn in Dr. Victor Paul Wormel's teachings is he says that it's always fine to ask questions.

Okay, you can ask questions and it shouldn't be a problem. And so, but with questions. Here, I mean, they always have the same answers to come back with, but I think you need to go to another pastor from another denomination and ask them some questions about what you're thinking.

And of course, there's so many podcasts on these days and YouTube videos about this type of thing. I would say that there's probably a lot of people leaving the word of faith church, churches and others.

But just seek guidance from another source, you know, when I was in the military anytime we collected intelligence information, we had to do multiple sources. We had to get two or three sources to verify information, just like in the word, it says two or three witnesses, you know, in the Bible, you have to get two or three witnesses to verify something.

And so that's what I would advise someone to do. Well, it's very good advice. Thank you so much for doing this. Well, thank you. If you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.

You can find us at William-Branum.org. For more about the dark side of the new Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.