Kicked Out of Church ...Then She Saw the Truth

Hello, welcome to another episode of the William Browns, I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Brandham Historical Research at William-Brandom.org, and with me, I have my very special guest, Darla Molonson, author of the things I learned after being kicked out of church.

Darla, it's good to have you on and to share your story of being kicked out of church, as the title says. I'm going to be open and honest with everyone, this is a really difficult story, difficult for me, and also difficult to get out there.

To be fully transparent, this story, I listened to it as we recorded and talked through it, and I realized that this was one of the more important stories that I have done, and it really, really needs to get out there, the news needs to get out there, that we need to protect our children.

Just pure plain and simple, we must protect the children. The problem with the story is, there are so many details that would trigger all of the red flags in all of the social media networks.

YouTube, for example, if we were to release this as recorded, it would not get the attention that it deserved, because YouTube would actually limit it. The story is so difficult. So to be fully transparent, I'm actually going back, and I'm re-recording segments, and I'm using different words.

So that it doesn't trip all of the red flags, and trying to protect with some legal risk as well. So there will be sections where you may hear Darla talking, and her voice may jump. I may cut a word here or there out, just so that the story can get out.

This is really, really important. So I'll open by saying this. This is a difficult story that's talking about spiritual abuse, church discipline, alleged abuse of minors, etc. A lot of details that trip all of the red flags, and instead of using that phrase, I'm going to say, simply, we must protect our children.

And when you hear me say that, you know exactly what she's talking about, even if I cleaned it up for the content. And I also understand this is her personal story. This is her story. This is the things that she endured as she went through this.

So she's sharing her own memory, interpretation, and experience. And I'm not trying to do any sort of legal assessment. All I'm simply doing is I want her story to get out there. So I'm being very...

Hosha says how it's released so that people can hear the story, and the name she's mentioning, etc. She's going to be talking about Che on and Harvest Rock Church. Very big churches in the New Apostolic Reformation, and I wasn't there, but this is her story. This is something that really needs to get out. So, the purpose of this is to get the story out, to show the patterns that exist, not targeting the specific individuals, because the churches that she mentions, the names that she mentions, this is part of a broader system that the system itself is flawed. I'm just

going to say it like that. The system is flawed. Pia and I have been breaking down that system, and I think it's time for reform. I think we do need to protect the children.

And so, with that, I'll let you introduce yourself, and tell everybody a little bit about yourself, and we'll get into the journey. But be aware, full transparency. I'm going to be editing some of the statements. Thank you, John. I'm so blessed to be here today. I've really appreciated listening to your podcast. I Pia, who is a friend of mine who's been on regulation. I met actually at the same church that we both ended up leaving. And a little bit of my history. I'm a PK. My dad was a pastor, Southern Baptist pastor. I accepted the Lord as my Lord and Savior at the age of seven.

So, I grew up in the church. The church was very much a part of my

life, the culture of the church, what is expected in the church. And as I understand it, your father witnessed a situation where we really need to protect our children. How did that impact you? He set a foundation for my expectations of the church.

I went off to California Baptist College, which is now a California Baptist University in Riverside California, that's where I met my husband. We have celebrated 45 years of marriage. Shortly after we got married, he joined the military because he was having a hard time getting a job. And while he was in the military, I went through a very personal traumatic time and I had to come to the place that I said, okay, Lord, I'm going to start. It's where one with you. I believe that you love me. And after that, shortly after that, I experienced a baptism of the Spirit

and the Holy Spirit. I know it's kind of the opposite of your story, starting with, you know, the charismatic side, the Pentecostal side, and then moving towards, you know, the more traditional. And my story was a little bit of the opposite. I started out very traditional and then experienced the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

where I basically said, Lord, I'll start a square one with you. You teach me what you want to know. And then I experienced the baptism of the Holy Spirit. And when my husband got out of the military and instead of going back to the Baptist church that he had accepted the Lord in our local area, we actually, I was in nursing school at the time.

I felt, while we were in college, I felt called to nursing. So when we moved back to the Pasadena area, I enrolled in Pasadena City College to work on my R&D degree. And that's where I met Lou Wingle and got involved with the church that he and Cheung on bastard at the time called Abundant Life.

And then they left the PDI, that was under the PDI church movement, which is now soft and grace. And they left that and went out on their own and the church that they pastored, currently known as Harvest Rock Church.

My husband and I went with them to Harvest Rock. And that's where I met Pia and that's where I experienced things. I never, never, never anticipated ever experiencing in a church. So before we recorded this, you sent me some documents and study materials, which I've been looking through.

And one of them really stood out to me that I don't know that I've talked about on the podcast and it is significant. You were talking about, and I think this might have been when you were in Cheung's church, but you said, when a movement claims to be the cutting edge of God, it turns into an issue.

I can't remember your exact phrasing, but that's exactly true. All of these movements, well, they're even called movements because they present themselves as they're on the cutting edge. This is something new, this is something reforming.

And in the end, they resurrect old heresies and call it new, so they're putting this big branding on something that's usually pretty bad. But it is the true. Whenever you are in a group that claims to be the cutting edge, it's almost impossible to question without being a appearance of being rebellious.

Everybody else is doing the new thing, which you're starting to question. They see it as new, most of the people aren't critically thinking about it, and then suddenly you realize, wait a minute, something's off here.

And then that's when everything's turned really bad. That's exactly what happened to me. Right, right. That is, when I met Che and Lowe and first attended the church that they were pastoring, that I did hear that.

And the first thing that so drew me to them was claiming we're on the cutting edge of what God is doing. And I look at that now and I think God is not limited to, he doesn't limit himself to one person or one movement.

He is so involved in every life. He really, he says he, he, um, The scripture that he doesn't want any to perish. I believe as I've seen in my own life how he's pursued me How he's pursued my children, especially after the trauma of being kicked out of church He pursues absolutely every life and he is involved trying to draw that person to them He is just involved in the underground church in China and the the Nigerians that are dying for him being martyred for him He is just as involved in their life as he is in every single life. I believe in the United States

He is involved because he loves his creation and to claim that you are the one thing that God is doing on the earth is just arrogance It's it's unreal and yet at the time my hungry heart Just drew to that because I want to be involved in what God is doing I really wish that I had been wiser But I've learned a lot so I'll get into some of the things I learned Anyway, we were actually with Che on and and Sue and Lu Engel and their church for 15 years We were very much involved and I remember telling the Lord

how How thankful I was that he put us into a church that would always be there for us and and that was our support and our social social foundation and that You know no matter what happened they would be there and I would be able to talk with them and they'd have our back and and then in early 2021 We had a guest pastor and he Richard and I my husband were actually both on staff at the time I had left nursing to be Sue on's personal assistant my husband was the facilities manager and

We oversaw the nursery departments and we were really involved in everything that went on in the church And then there was a guest pastor and I remember where I was standing I was coming up from the nursery getting ready to go sit in the auditorium with my husband and the guest pastor was speaking about The thing about deception is you don't know you're deceived and I'm and I said well Lord. I'm not deceived and the Holy I felt the Holy Spirit said Are you sure and I'm like Kind of took me back and I'm like well, of course I'm not deceived. I'm in among your people

I'm in your church we're worshiping you and again the Holy Spirit just nudged my heart and said Are you sure and so if I so well? All right? God if I'm deceived and something I give you permission to show me

Okay, well He did in a big way May 21st 2021. This was 2001, 25, 26 years ago. That was early in the year, I think probably about March, and then on May 21st, my son came to me. It was in the morning, he had just woken up, and he said, he had a really good dream. And I sat down to listen to him, and he talked about the song, like the fire again, and how he felt free and whole inside. And I was just, I said, honey, I think that's great. And then he said, but the first part of the dream wasn't good. And I said, well,

what was it? And he started expressing to me, he was, remember, he was 10 years old, explicit sexual material that he never should have had any idea of. He, um, and I, I, I was really confused.

And I said, oh, that's terrible. I'm really sorry you had that dream. I have no idea why. And that was the first time that you really learned that we must protect our children. In these movements, we must protect our children. What did that make you feel? I felt that punch. I'm like, I had homeschooled my children. I thought I was protecting them. The only time I'd ever let them just be free and run wild was a church thinking they were safe. And that had not happened.

So the process of working through that, um, with the church and with our family, it was a six-month process. And at the end of it, Che and Sue told us that we were free to go.

They would release us to find healing somewhere else. Um, it was, it was really a struggle because I had never imagined that, um, church would ever treat us that way. I thought they were my social foundation that would just always be there. Um, we tried to work through the issues with them.

And so you learned that number one above everything else, the church really needs to protect our children. That was the first time, as I understand it, that you started to work with people outside the church, authorities, etc. What was it like? What was the difference between working with the authorities and working with the church? We felt actual more pastoral care from the civil authorities than we did from our own pastors. They told us, don't talk about it and just forgive. And I don't know if you've been through a lot of people don't realize how damaging those

two directives were to not talk when you're hurting inside, like your world is falling apart. And, and then to, um, just squash the, just forgive, it's like, well, I, I do want to forgive, but I don't know that I can get there right now. I need to work toward it. So my book deals with not but just forgive and the don't talk about it directive, but also deals with other things that I began to re-evaluate after we were kicked out, the teachings that they taught us to live by.

Now, some of them were good, although I now see that they were more manipulated than they were an honest teaching. I remember Che teaching us about, you know, the servanthood and having a servant heart and a teachable spirit.

And I think those are good things. But now I see he just wanted them to you to be that way towards him. He wasn't exhibiting that towards other people. I have personally witnessed in churches where a really difficult situation was happening, something that really needed to be addressed and in all other areas of life, whether you're in business, whether you're at school, usually there's a process that people follow and it's a standard process.

It's not even anything anybody needs to learn. You just know the right thing to do and you go through that process. In some of these churches, what happens is they overspiritualize everything. And in some cases, they fully spiritualize everything so that the process becomes neglected.

Were there other situations where they started talking, I don't know, doctorally speaking instead of actually functionally doing something? The other one was believe the best. That one really hit me pretty hard after we got kicked out of church because I decided, I didn't want to be like a lot of people that left the church and just leave and leave it up to the pastors to explain why we left.

So I called the people that were closest to and told them why we were leaving. And while I was talking on the phone to my friend, she was relaying the conversation to her husband on the other side of the phone.

And he goes, well, wait a minute, we need to believe the best. And all of a sudden it hit me. It's like, okay, well, if you're going to believe the best about church, what are you going to believe about me?

Where's the truth in believing the best? And so I also addressed that on my book, we need to believe the truth. And we're only going to get that if we go to Jesus and talk to him first.

So I address many of these things in the book. And I feel like I'm actually started a second book that I believe the Lord wants me to address some more of the things that I discussed in the book.

A lot of what you described we had, but we didn't have the same names for it. The, it's odd because they created the structure which was an authoritarian structure. They called it the five-fold ministry.

And basically, you know, you've got the guy at the top and then it goes through the layers. And that evolved later into the shepherding movement, et cetera. But what it was really creating was this bubble around each entity.

And in this bubble, you, you had the touch-knotted gods annoying to touch-knotted the prophet, this kind of verbiage, essentially what they're saying. You can't question the leadership. But they're telling you that while you're trusting us for our leadership, you're in this bubble and whatever happens inside that bubble stays in the bubble, whatever happens in Vegas stays in Vegas when you're in our church system.

That's really what that is. I'm telling you get an STD and it comes home with you. Exactly. You know, the real problem is this, we do need to protect our children, but there needs to be a mechanism from which this can flourish.

This can be widespread. In that bubble where touch not God's anointed, in that bubble, what happens is people go into this thinking that they're under the, there's different names for it, the spiritual covering, et cetera.

They feel like they're being protected by the leader because of that doctrine. However, the doctrine really protects the leader more than it does the people. And so the balance is shifted in the favor of the person who's in full control of the church.

Well, the people in that case aren't protected and we must protect our children. That's a sad truth that really needs to be adopted in the church. But when you're in that mindset, everybody is starting to protect the leader instead of the individual who's really suffering and needs your help.

And what happens is when there is a situation, instead of helping the person in need, they will often uplift the leader and then point fingers at the person who is in need. And that is really, in my opinion, that's really wrong.

I agree, absolutely. We have so many people that have been wounded by the church and that part of the reason I wrote the book was for my own catharsis to work through the issues and to look at scripture and also because I knew that there were others that were wounded by the church and whether the specific lie that I expose in the book is relevant to an individual, most of them will be.

Maybe not all of them, but most of them will be. And the cover up culture we see now, I think is indicative of the church protecting itself,

the leadership protecting itself, instead of dealing with and helping those that have been traumatized. And yeah, I believe, let me just say this, I believe in the fivefold ministry because it's listed in Ephesians, but I don't think we've seen it, not the way God intended it.

And since then, as I said earlier, when we first came back to LA, are the Pasadena area after my husband was out of the military, we went to Harvest Rock Church. And then after we got kicked out, we actually didn't go to church very much for 20 years.

We never really got involved. I would take my grandsons and my grandchildren to a local church, but I would stay in the nursery. with them pretty much for several years. Because my daughter, like some of my children, of my six children, only for really walking with the Lord right now, they've all had their own journey.

And I trust that the Lord's gonna continue to pursue them. That's one of the things that gives me a lot of hope because he cares about the individual. And I believe he's still pursuing even those that have kind of turned their back on him.

And I think that's one of the differences between my book and other books is I still maintain that Jesus is Lord. And I want to know him and I want to know what he means in scripture, not what somebody else is interpreting for me.

Exactly. I mean, everybody can read about the Apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, et cetera. But there isn't that hierarchy in the Bible. When you read that, there is not an authoritarian structure. And that's really the problem, because it leads to all forms of different abuses that can happen in the church.

As I understand it, you also went to another church and you witnessed another situation where the children must be protected. How did the church respond? They said we needed to let it go. And when they would not report her, my daughter went and reported her to the police.

And we got kicked out of another church. So we've actually been kicked out twice. So after that, we're kind of like, well, God, is there any place first in your body?

So then my husband, the Lord spoke to my husband and told him, I want you to go back to where you met me. So my husband went back to the little Baptist church

that he had met the Lord in. And it, believe it or not, it was now a Korean Methodist church. And we've been going since. They've since left the Methodist oversight. They're a little independent Korean church, but they've opened their arms to us.

And the pastor there is like Paul. He, Paul was a tent maker. This gentleman is a general contractor. He continues to work besides being a pastor and filling the pulpit. He lives simply. He spends, it gives most of his money away.

And his time is spent going to other countries helping pastors build their church buildings. Now, he would never claim he was an apostle. He would never claim that title. But he is an example to me of what the five folk ministry is supposed to be.

We, I believe God gave those gifts as gifts, not as titles, not as offices, but as gifts. And we exhibit and live those out when we live it with the servant's heart, not a look at me arrogance.

So I still believe that the scripture is real. I just know that we have not seen what God intended for it. You know, even if you look up the meaning of those words and how they're used in the context they're used, the leadership of the church were basically servants to help build the people up.

They weren't leaders to govern. And what they're talking about when you get in these new apostolic reformation circles is a governance type of situation. And they didn't get it new. It came from all of the layers that we've done in our research all the way back even before random.

They were doing this. And it all came down to this one thing. We do not want you to question us, no matter who the leader is, no matter who the figure is, no matter how much money they were making, they did not want to be questioned.

And in the end, I came to, like you, I understood that the Bible does talk about the pastor's apostles, prophets, teachers, evangelists, but it doesn't use it in the same way that they use it.

They use it in the context of touch not God's anointed. Here the five offices touch them not. They're the ones to govern you. And that's just, it's the opposite of a healthy church. So what I started doing was I started re-evaluating every single part of the structure by this.

Church was meant to serve the people, not people to serve the church. How do these governance structures that they've created satisfy that? And I just started ripping out all of the ones that didn't satisfy it.

If it was intended to govern me, then it was the wrong thing. If it was intended to lift me up and teach me and make me a better person, I accepted it. And when you do that, you're kind of left with, well, wait a minute, the whole system just disappeared.

I agree. Well, you know, I think it actually started back with the Roman Catholic Church when they tried to control everybody, you know, and when they fought against having the scriptures for the common man.

So yeah, you can see it repeated throughout history. It becomes a platform for those that really need human affirmation. And I believe that's one of the weaknesses in, well, in our, the need for human affirmation instead of just being humble enough to serve each other and know that we're all equal in front of God.

And one of the things I really wish that they had taught me was how to hear God for myself, because you talk about the apostle, the prophet, and yet we're called a prophetic people, we're supposed to hear God for ourselves.

I believe God would rather talk to me about me than since somebody else did talk to me. And so it's more important for me to spend time in the word myself and to prayer myself so that I hear God for his direction for me.

I'd love to share a wonderful example of that. January, 2025, you've probably heard of The Eaton Fire that went through. the fires that went through Southern California. On the evening of January 7th, my husband and I, we knew that there was a fire on the other side of Altadena, and it wasn't the first time we'd faced a fire, it wasn't the first time we'd evacuated.

So we asked the Lord, do we need to evacuate, and we both thought, no, you're going to be okay. So, I went on to bed thinking I'd get up and go to work the next day.

My son and my husband and my daughter stayed up to watch the fire, and just before four o'clock in the morning, my son came and knocked on my door and says, mom, we've got to go.

And I quickly got dressed, grabbed my work phone and my personal phone, didn't grab my Bible, which I grabbed my Bible, but I didn't. I grabbed a notebook and another book, and went downstairs, got on my coat, grabbed my purse and my work computer and headed out.

And as I went out the front door, you could see flot embers floating across the ground. And in the year they were flying, and my daughter had told me while I was still in the house for getting the counts, we'll put them in your car, and I thought, okay, great.

Our dog was already in my husband's truck, and I was parked in front of him. And my husband kept yelling at me to go, go. And I'm like, well, my daughter and son aren't out yet.

And I don't have the counts in my car. But as I got it back out of my car and I saw my daughter and son getting into their car. And I thought, okay, I can go.

So I backed out, and it was so smokey I couldn't see, and I said, Lord help, I need help. I don't know where to drive. And when I got to the end of the block, I noticed the big bush to the right, so I knew I was safe to turn left.

So I turned left. I'm within a few blocks, the smoke had cleared, and my husband and his truck was right behind me and our daughter behind them. And we evacuated to our daughter's home in Manerovia.

As we drove, the Lord gave me Isaiah 26-3, I will keep you in perfect peace if your heart is stayed on me. And I said, okay, Lord. And then I asked him, did somebody remember to lock the front door?

Just kind of one of those silly housewife things, you know? We got to our daughter's house, and she said the first thing she noticed when we came in, it was about 4.30, all the smoke.

And her husband is an EMT, so I said, they aren't going to allow us back up. Would you just run by and check on the house? So about 10.30 in the morning, he texted us a picture with two words.

It's gone. And it was a smoke-filled picture with no house. And the nurse and me began to say, okay, what do we need to do? I put my emotions on the back burner and said, we have to have clothes so we can get out of these smoky and get showers and get out of the smoke.

So we loaded up the kids and went to Costco, and we got everybody to change it. clothes and toothbrushes and shampoo and and my husband I picked up a laptop and in the middle of Costco and I'm I'm busy functioning in my nurses mode and my daughter just breaks down and cries and says why does God hate me and I'm like I realize I gotta go slower for her I need and I said he doesn't hate us I don't know why this is happening but he doesn't hate us and we got home and and and people have been dropping off clothes and food and we're

sorting through things and we had received phone calls all day long and one phone call that evening was such a blessing our neighbors daughter called we had not seen our neighbors their house was completely dark we had not heard from them we thought they were gone a lot of the neighborhood had left and their daughter said her mother got up to go the bathroom just before four o'clock in the morning and heard you yelling at each other about going and getting in the car and she looked out saw the danger went and woke up her husband and I believe they're alive

today because we had prayed and asked the Lord do we evacuate and we had waited until we had to and their life today and I am so blessed that we asked the Lord and obeyed what he told us I would like to learn to ask him more specific questions because if we'd ask do we need to pack something up we probably would have not left all the stuff behind but he has blessed us since then too so learning to talk to God and hear him for yourself is really really important have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern

Pentecostalism transition through the latter reign charismatic and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation you can learn this and more on William Brannum Historical Research his website William-Brannum.org on the book's page of the website you can find the compiled research of John Collins Charles Paisley Steven Montgomery John McKinnon and others with links to the paper audio and digital versions of each book you can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements if you want to contribute to the cause you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top and as always be sure

to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching on behalf of William-Brannum Historical Research we want to thank you for your support one of the things that you talked about a few times in a few different ways was fear of missing the move of God and that is something that is really really big to me because we We're held captive by these people who were telling us that we're under this umbrella of protection, not telling us that the protection was for them, not for us, and yet at the same time, they kept talking about this move of God that was coming.

And the problem was, it never really came. They would give hints that something's here, something's here, can you feel it? And then you would try to feel it, and yes, it felt like maybe God's presence was near, but it wasn't the thing that they talked about.

They were always talking, it was like they cared on the stick. They're always talking about the big thing coming in, it just never, never came. And so in the end, you train as a child in that type of environment to look for this thing that never happens, and you begin to wonder, as you get older, well, did I miss it?

What's wrong with me? What did I do inside to miss this thing? And then worse, people who are in that mindset, whenever you leave or whenever they kick you out, they look at you and say, well, that you left because you missed this move that's happening.

And they don't even realize that they've never even made it to the thing that's supposed to come. So they are caught up in their own delusion, and you're caught up in this thing, where, wait a minute, I don't share that same delusion anymore.

Yes, it was, they manipulated with fear to try to control you, and they did it in several ways, and they did it to insulate themselves, as they did it, they insulated themselves from any accountability.

Like you said, it was a pastoral decision. It shouldn't be questioned. I remember being told that.

I also remember being told the pastor has oversight over you as a, to protect you, and I'm like, but you aren't protecting me. That was in the six months from the time my son told us he had been abused to the time we actually were kicked out.

You're afraid of missing the Holy Spirit, whether it's from an upcoming conference, or some life-changing event. Part of that was in believing the best, because they would use half-truths to defend themselves, and not the whole truth.

They would give, they would tell us to give no offense. We need to lay down our lives for each other, and I address that in my book, because my children had learned that they couldn't say no, not without a legitimate reason.

So there was this whole mentality within our, or within the church, and it wasn't just, I experienced this growing up too. You weren't supposed to say no, unless you had a work commitment that couldn't allow you to attend, or you weren't feeling well.

There were some legitimate excuses, but other than that, you were supposed to be there at church for everything, and you weren't allowed to say no. And again, I go back to, I wish they had told us to ask the Lord, what do you want for me to do, and then respect that.

What all goes back to any form of question, is questioning the leader, and if you're questioning the leader, you might- not have the Holy Spirit. In fact, that's one of the things that hit me like a brick wall.

Once I realized what this Holy Spirit was that they were talking about, it was all about your acceptance of the leader. That was what they considered to be the Holy Spirit. If you didn't accept the leader, you didn't have the Holy Spirit. And that just simply wasn't what I found in my Bible when I was reading it. Right. And being able to accept a respect someone's know is healthy. And so it shows the unhealthiness when you can't accept a know. When you have to encourage people using fear and manipulation to be in the church and to do the church work.

Along with that was a scripture he often used. In the day of power, my people will volunteer freely. And I actually found, finally found where that scripture comes from. It's Psalm 110. And yet, it volunteer freely means that they give it out of a heart of passion for the Lord, not out of a heart for the church. And that was used to manipulate as well as, and then the other thing was don't pick up your brother's offenses. They would use that phrase to insulate themselves from accountability. Because God does call us to be, to care for each other and to defend each other.

And to speak up for each other. And so I really, as I looked through these,

I really began to say, okay, Lord help me to see what was of you and what wasn't. Because I know the Lord spoke to me during those years. I grew up, I raised my kids, and I can point back to events where I know the Lord was leading me in that time. And yet he, through being kicked out of church, showed me the mass of lie that I was, and deception that I was functioning under.

He also, Che, preached a lot about covenant relationship. And I think that is what hurt the most because we thought we were in covenant relationship that we would work out. Whatever issues came up with our pastors, only to discover it was all one sided. It was all on his side. If we were able to do what he needed us to do, not if he would take lay down his life and spend time helping us. One of the things that you said that I really started laughing at because I never thought of it actually until you said it is the, you made some comment about how we were

prophetic people, but only the positive prophecies are allowed. Oh my gosh, is that not? So in what I came out of, only the negative was allowed, but it was allowed by the leader. Then after this, if you had anything prophetic to say, it had to be positive about the leader because our leader was dead. Fast forward, I'm going through all of this research of what came next. And it morphed into this.

hang where it's well they call it shiny happy people for a reason you have to maintain that happiness and if you're sad what happens is you don't attract new members so you can't be seen as sad you have to be shiny and happy and when you read the biblical prophets it's both the good and the bad and the ugly yes yes and people are that way no one's 100% good or 100% bad we are and there's been times the Lord's corrected me in my devotional time with him he said Darla that wasn't that wasn't from my heart I'm like okay I'm sorry you know I

mean he deals with who we are the the good the bad and the ugly and in my book and one part of my book I talk about my that attitude of the church has has to be shiny and perfect and I was talking to my sister-in-law who lives up in Northern California in a farming community and she said you know it's not unusual for a farmer to show up to church with some dung on his boots or on the hem of his pants and and he she said that's because he would have gotten ready for church and then something happened with some of his livestock

he had to go take care of it that's what you would expect somebody to do and so the attitude that church has to be shiny and perfect is a big fallacy we have to be ready to deal with people in their brokenness and in their woundings and love them and let Jesus come in and bring the healing to their heart and their soul that he wants and we lose that when we think we've got to always present this perfect picture because that's not the heart of God God's heart is to meet us where we're the most broken and to bring correction

when we step out of line and there were times that that I would have a prophetic word that wasn't all that I went one of the things I shared with you as I actually had a dream about a man in the church who was who was attending the renewal meetings but he was a pastor to another church and I saw his face and I saw above his head are you for 86 which is a designation of the abortion pill and I really think I had a pretty good idea of what that dream meant but I

had to submit it to him that this happened and I don't know what it means but I'm just submitting it to you and letting you work it out with the Lord and he left the renewal meetings for quite a while several months before he came back and I'm glad he came back he needed to work through with the Lord with that dream represented and I think we need to know that God doesn't see just the Good, he sees the bad, he doesn't hide it.

And a lot of ways I grieve for Nar and Che on and those that are involved in such deception right now because they're gonna have to face the Lord. And that's not gonna be a fun thing.

The other thing that you said that goes hand in hand with that, I really had to stop and think about it because there are levels of complexity to the things we're talking about. And this is one of the things that is very, very complex.

You were talking something to the effect of they don't allow you to gossip and basically it's just a means to keep you silent but there are layers of complexity to that. So in my family, we were in the upper tiers because my family knew the central figure.

We had clearly people who were lesser of importance than us in this structure. Sad to say, I never really adopted that mentality because I didn't understand I was supposed to. But looking back, there were three tiers.

And if you look at Dr. Steven Hassan's book, Combat and Cult Mind Control, he explains the three tiers and why. When you're in the upper tier, those people gossip like crazy. I'm looking back and going through the names.

Oh my gosh, look at that, look at that. When you said that, I started playing back in my head, everything that I remember growing up. That middle tier would gossip about everybody and everyone, but the lower tier was being preached at, don't gossip, that's wrong.

That's not the way that God wants you to be. And what it was was a mechanism, like you said, of control. They do not want any of the bad stuff to make it to the outside world because if you do, the outside world doesn't come in.

You can't recruit new members. So they want to contain it, it has to be self-contained. But then from the top, they're going to gossip down. So it's such a weird complex mess. And the problem with that is when you don't, when you aren't transparent and you don't expose truth, you open the door for more rumors and slander.

Absolutely. And one of the things that really bothers me, not only about your story, but also about some of the other stories that I've been hearing from people that I'm working with, leadership will tell just enough details to make the story sound one way.

But they leave out the key details, which makes it sound entirely differently to the listener. In your case, you had a six-year-old son who needed protection. And in this case, it was protection from a 14-year-old teenage girl.

He later informed you, whenever he was 10 years old, that this thing had happened. And she pled guilty when she was 18, as I understand the story. Now, that's horrific. I can't imagine being apparent and going through that.

But then, as I understand it, you were told by somebody who was there that the leadership in the church started saying that you left because of sexual immorality. which made it sound as though this was something that was your fault, and the person who later had pled guilty apparently, if I understand the story right, she was working with other children, is that correct? She had worked in children's ministry. She had babysept for people in the church, and the half-truths that came out, the gossip that came out because they weren't transparent was awful. It is awful. And like I said, we must protect the children at all costs. I don't

care who you are, I don't care what type of scenario you're in. The children are the ones that need protected by any parent in any situation. I can't imagine a healthy church wanting a strategy like this. I think if anything comes out of this podcast, if anything comes out of your book, it's that we need to adopt a platform where people can be protected, and their children especially can be protected. I spend a lot of time talking to my husband and then writing about what real forgiveness is, and real forgiveness is I've dealt with the hurt with the Lord and released the

person that offended me. It doesn't mean I trust them again. Trust is earned. It isn't just flatly given. I like to see, and actually I was taught this from Jay, from one of his sermons, forgiveness is releasing the person. Reconciliation is the process of restoration, which means the person who wounded you realizes they wounded you, and they start to rebuild trust. And once trust is restored, you reach restoration. It's like in the example he used, honestly, the example he used in the sermon, and I remember this, was if you loan lawnmower to your neighbor and they

break it, you forgive them. But if they go and get it fixed again, then they're reconciling with you. They're repairing what they did. But if they bought you a brand new one, a brand new, not vacuum cleaner lawnmower, then they've restored. You'll be willing to loan them anything, because they saw that they did not care for you and your belongings as they needed to.

And I remember him preaching that. Did you try to approach and have a discussion about the situation? We tried after a year after we left to write a letter to Jay and seek reconciliation, and we just got a letter back that said, oh, well, I'm sorry, this happened. And then he went on to defend. He asked for forgiveness, and then he went on to defend his leadership style. So that there was no reconciliation there. Getting kicked out of church is really difficult. And you've written a book on it. I've went through it. I've talked to...

countless at this point, how many people have gone through that, and every case is unique, yet at the same time every case is really really difficult, they struggle. What advice would you give to people who are going through that?

Separate yourself from any continuing toxic relationships, people that want to blame you. Um, and then get alone with God and and do what I did years ago and say, okay, God, I'm gonna start at ground ground one with you, you love me, help me to understand how you love me, because so much of who we are wants to point at circumstances around us and then blame God for it and he, he gives us free will, he lets people make mistakes and we shouldn't blame him for it, but we need we need to redefine within ourselves who he is and who he created us to be.

I am still asking God to show me the lies I've believed about myself, about church, and show me who he is and and he is faithful to do so. Um, and when you're ready, find ask God to lead you back to a church that will honor him and embrace you. I was out of church for 20 years and God never left me.

I never left the Lord. Um, my husband and I did get family counseling because it affected our whole family and specifically our son who needed, who needed healing and health and uh, there's no shame in getting counseling if you need it. Um, it is out there, it's available and ask for, if if you're interested, I'm, I have a website that's going to be coming out shortly, rebuilding after spiritual abuse. I will be available to help, um, if somebody needs, needs to just vent. I don't have answers for another person. I do have a listening ear and a praying heart

and I will lift them up. My website will be effective shortly as well, probably before this is aired. So it's called rebuilding after spiritual abuse. Thank you so much and tell people where they can find your book. My book, the things I learned after being kicked out of church, it has a second edition coming out very shortly and it will be available on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, a Google the title and something will come up for you. Well, thank you so much for doing this. Oh, it's been my pleasure and I really appreciate the variety of folks that you have on

John that I don't agree with everybody, but I love hearing different perspectives and then just taking it to the Lord and saying, okay, Lord, what do you have for me in this? And I really encourage people, that's where we need to be. We can't let somebody else define our relationship with God. We have to seek it on.

individually. Absolutely. Well you've enjoyed our show and you want more information or to share your story you can check us out on the web you can find us at William-Brandom.org. For more about the Dark Side of the New Apostolic Reformation you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.