Leaving Hyper-Charismania: Mystica’s Journey Back to Biblical Truth

Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at William-branham.org and with me I have Mystica Silverberg, a former member of the Charismatic Movement. Mystica, it's good to have you back and to talk about your journey after having left all of this weirdness. I remember when our first podcast came out, I was getting all kinds of emails. Some of them I shared with you but people were just so interested to hear more about your story and I told you we would have to do it again. It's just taken way too long to do it.

So thank you for coming back. Maybe if you could just take a moment for those who don't know you and reintroduce yourself. Thank you so much for having me and it has been a while but I want to try to make a point to do this at least once a year to share some of this craziness. Well my name is Mystica. I am from upstate New York. I'm a mom and a licensed clinical social worker and I was part of the Hypercarious Menia Circus and out of it and lived to tell the tale.

And there's a lot of tales to tell from people who have left that I have people who are helping helping me deprogram as they help themselves deprogram on the show but they talk through their issues and it was difficult being in this thing but after you leave it's even more difficult to find your way because we were in this weird thing that claimed to had all of the answers and so you never really thought about the solutions to those answers.

You never thought about the solutions that you needed to have and then suddenly we woke up and realized wait none of their answers are quite right and so we had to figure it out ourselves.

Well after you leave you realize that wait a minute the world is filled with questions. How do I answer them all and anyway I'm on the same journey myself. It's never ending. There's a lot of unraveling that has to happen. So in your email you were talking about leaving the works righteous faith and the way that we were so filled with works righteous doctrines. I never really thought about that when I was in the movement and interestingly I had read the Bible when I was in the movement I was reading it and I would come across the works righteous passages and the frame of

reference that we had was so different. I was always working for my salvation and didn't even know it and the more I worked the harder I had to work some more. And there was no aha moment where like I had arrived, it was always something more I had to do, something better I had to do, I had to do things longer, whether it even be spend time with the Lord which isn't a bad thing, but it was like even that wasn't great.

I had to do that for a more amount of times to produce X, Y, and Z to get something to happen. And I was so caught up in that that I didn't realize that's what I was doing.

See they twisted it a little bit for us, it was still works righteous faith, but instead of saying that by doing these works you will become righteous, they would, they actually would say that that's wrong, you shouldn't be like that, which that part I can agree with.

But what they instead did was they would say, if you do these works, you're going to hell. And so it became the opposite of works righteous, but in the same way, they're teaching the same thing.

In other words, you save yourself by the works you do essentially. And we had, we had so many different rules. I remember the first time I went bowling. This is a big deal for me.

And everybody else is like, wait a minute, that's just bowling, you know, what is it? But we were not allowed to go bowling. And I went, the first time I went, I beat everybody with me in there to look at me scratching the head, thinking, how did you do that?

You've never done this before. And I said, I just rolled the ball down and I hit the pins. It's pretty easy, right? I think I got a 180 or 200 something like this. And anyway, for me, it was this new experience.

I've never had anything like it. And to everybody who is with me, they just, it was second nature to them. They grew up doing things that we weren't allowed to do. And that's part of the works righteous faith that we were in.

We had these boundaries of things we could and could not do. And they were directly tied to our salvation. You know, when you are a person that actually desires to love God and be part of his family and be part of that whole thing, of course, you want to do everything that you can that's within your power to be the best Christian you can be.

And you don't want God mad at you and you don't want to not get something because you didn't do enough. So there's no time to think. And of course, they don't want you to think rationally.

They don't want you to think biblically. They want you to think emotionally. And that's exactly how they ran me. And I wasn't working for God. That's the whole, that's the irony of all of this.

I was working for them, the leaders, the more that I did, the more work they gave me. Because essentially, I was doing their work. And of course, they'd always equate that to I was doing it for God, even when it came to tithing and giving.

I was essentially giving it to them, but they convinced me I was giving it to God. I could do a whole, in fact, I probably have done a whole podcast on the tithing. It just, it blows my mind whenever I hear the way that they teach it.

You're giving it to God, but I'm driving a Cadillac and we had this one, we went to this one church and we didn't go very long, but they were they were teaching us the grace passages, which is something that was almost eliminated and excluded in what I grew up in. So I'm, I'm all excited.

They're teaching grace and I'll all have heard his works and they said, we're living under the new covenant, we're no longer under the old covenant law. And everything they said was right for maybe six of the sermons.

And then it was either the six or the seventh. And now I'm going to preach on something that's going to make everybody just a little bit anxious. We're going to preach about tithe and he went down the path of telling us that we had to go back under the old covenant to give our money and then we're out of it again. And I'm scratching my head thinking, what on earth were they doing and thinking? And on the way out, I left in the middle of the sermon, if you call it a sermon, and I picked up

the, the, the financial documentation, which they had freely available. And I, I saw where they had overexpended in one of the new ventures they were building and they needed the money for it. So essentially, I was in the midst of a money drive. And the whole thing, it's just, it's, it's a weird business because your main customer or people who are going to give it to you out of the pocket. And what other businesses like this, which is exactly why I started to figure out, you know, every additional event they would have that would be beyond the four or five hours of church

on Sunday. Because of course, you have to stay until the Holy Spirit is done. You can't leave before that. It doesn't matter if it's eight hours, however long the Holy Spirit wants to go. So even beyond that, it would be, now we're doing this prophetic class and that prophetic class and a class on deliverance and a class to learn what this demon is and that demon is. And, you know, if you didn't, if I didn't, there go because I was a mom and might have to work or might have to take care of the kids, I was

reprimanded. Why? Because if I wasn't a body that was there, you know, I wasn't giving them more money. I wasn't paying their registration fee for that class. And I wasn't showing the internet that a whole bunch of people were here so that you could get more people to come. You know, I was just being used to this marketing tool was to the time, you know, and look, God doesn't need our money. He doesn't. It's not wrong to give, but it is wrong to tell me that if I don't give, then God can't do something and that I'm not giving something to God.

I'm giving it to you. Just admit that I'm giving it to you, and you want to do some things that are for the body of Christ. Okay, don't tell me I'm giving it to God or not giving it to God. You know, there's just a form of mind control.

Absolutely. So when we had our first conversation, you were early in the midst of beginning the journey. And now it's some time has passed. I'm curious to know how much your belief set has changed since our first conversation and this conversation.

Would you say it's the same or would you say you have progressed in one way or another? What is different in your belief set? Nothing. Nothing is different in my belief set. Glory be to God when this unraveled for me, meaning the lies of the hypercharismatic church.

It came unraveled very quickly, and I thank God for that. And I think that's because I was rooted in truth, because I pursued truth. And I had always had, and I mentioned this, I think in our last interview, this running list of questions that I had that never really added up, but no one ever had the answer to, or I just didn't have the courage to ask them.

And there were always things that made me go, hmm, things that I went to sleep at night going, I don't understand. Why would God let, for example, let someone go on after they've given their lives to him and they're born again? Why would he go on allowing them to flop around like a fish on the floor?

Or whatever serpent they were at the time, making all these noises, being an agony, you know, doing all these things that I'll spare the details of, why would God allow that? What, this just doesn't make sense to me, you know, I thought that we were in him, I thought we were taken from the, we were translated from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light and to the kingdom of the sun.

Why is this stuff happening? And I never would get the answer that made sense. And so I think the fact that I never fully gave myself over to these beliefs and always had questions and stayed an individual in Christ is I honestly, and people's prayers, I think is really what saved me.

So yeah, my belief system is the same. I'm Bible focused. I've learned how to exegy scripture instead of isegy scripture. So that's something that I've learned a skill I've learned how to do and my real new church.

But yeah, my beliefs haven't changed. But when I first talk to you, you know, really gung ho about exposing these people. I mean I thought about it all the time. I wanted to expose these people. I wanted to show up at their churches and stand out. I would picture myself standing out in the parking lot telling people don't go in there. You don't understand what they're doing in there. You don't understand and have truth for them and give them something. You know, I had all these ideas about how I wanted to help other people come out of this and how I wanted

to expose them for what they were. And I don't know if it is my lack of courage or if it was God's hand, but I've felt not to do these things other than to do these interviews because I'm really not sure why, John. I'm the more that I read scripture and the more that I understand scripture, the more that I see, and I don't know if this is right, that people in the Bible didn't set out to expose false teachers. They set out to share the truth and to share the good news. People got in

the way and then they were handled. So if I'm out, let's say on the street and I'm sharing the gospel and someone comes up with a false message, then yes, I should expose them, but I've really questioned this spending all this time and energy to go back and expose these places that I was a part of. So that's what I've really changed in my beliefs is just how to deal with the mess that I was in. And I don't know that I've arrived at the right answer, but I know I have my peace.

Well, I think you've arrived at a healthy answer. So whenever I was in a cult, I, there were times whenever we were allowed to watch television and movies for a large majority of my life I was not, but I can remember watching shows, what's a what's a good example? Airplane.

In the airplane movie right before they they get in the plane, they're walking through the airport and they're the guy standing there with the signs, praise Jesus. I can't remember what it said. It was some weird cult and you could tell everybody's looking at them like they're freaks because they're out of place, they're out of character, they're trying to promote their religion.

Once I left an actual cult and started thinking about it, my first thing clinician was to do exactly what you said. Everybody needs to get out of this. I need to stand on the street corner with a sign.

In fact, I'll tell one of my secrets. I almost purchased a row of signs here and locally that was going to expose the whole thing and interestingly the cult did it for me. They purchased all of these signs and they created the most obnoxiously cult identifying signs possible.

Like how will you be judged as one of the signs. Instead of come to Jesus. So you read it and you think, well, that's a cult. So I didn't even have to do it. But that was my first inclination.

But once I stopped and thought about it, my personality is not a confrontational personality. I just, I can't do it. But more to the point, if you do the same thing, if you are out of place, you're out of character, you go to their property, what the sign, whatever it is, you're actually doing the same thing as that guy in the airplane movie. You're out of character, everybody's going to, they're not even going to listen to you. What I have learned over time is, instead, because of the way mind control works, it would not have helped anyway. They would have,

they would have still been trapped. They would have just discounted anything that I said. Instead, I prefer to be a resource to people who have the question before they make the escape. Because usually it builds up to this question internally, hey, am I in a cult? Now I've got the information, they can type it in Google, they can go find it. And I think that's a healthier way to to behave. Now there is a place for people who are doing this type of apologetics that go after people. But I will say that even locally, we have some people that really target the individuals

and they'll go on onto the bridges or downtown. And it's not really that effective because they're out of place. They're not doing it in a way that really is a good strategy, in my opinion.

Yeah, I agree. And I know there'll be people that might hear me say this, because I've had it happen already, who get angry, who are part of, what do they call it, discernment ministries, that's the newest thing. And I mean, John, I don't see that in the Bible. Again, I am not against exposing false teachers, but to call it a ministry and set out for that to be your daily, all day thing. When we're called to share the good news, I just, I, I biblically, I don't see the standard for that. I don't, I don't see that spelled out in scripture. And what I have noticed

since the last time we talked, these places that consider themselves and some of them are my friends. I love them. And I see them doing this, what they call, discernment ministry. I see not good things happening to them, to their mental health, to their ministries, to, I see them really wearing themselves out and not being very happy people that have peace. And you know, I'm a fighter, I can say I have been a confrontational person, personality wise, but the more rooted in Christ, I become, the more I understand that kind of like what you're saying, there's an order,

there's a better way. We're always supposed to walk in humility, the bandit who's Tell us it's the humble and the meat that Chelsea got and not the ones that are yelling and screaming at people.

And I agree with you, I think God's sovereign will will be done, it just will. And if he wants something to happen, he's gonna, the door will be opened for it to happen. And so what I see is all these little opportunities that I would never imagine happening that happen where there is an opportunity for me to share to somebody, maybe someone that's still in one of those cults I was in or maybe someone that's thinking about going in and they'll contact me.

I don't have to look for them at all and it'll still happen, you know? But so that's really the only thing that I've put a lot of time like I don't want to do this wrong, you know?

And these places, they'll be a lot of warfare that comes with doing that, you know? So it's been real, a real hard pill to swallow because I really wanted to go after them with everything that I had.

There's one in particular that I was only a part of for a short while, I didn't even mention it to you the last time we talked. And they're a full preterist within a half an hour from me, not far away, I know a couple of people that are in it.

They don't even advertise it on their website, they believe that everything in the Bible already took place. We're just walking in it that there's no other return of Jesus, he's already returned this second time.

This is a really big deal and they don't even put it on their website and most people don't even have any idea. And that's that's the one that I really wanted to share about.

I'm just waiting for God to open a door to that because that one's super dangerous. You know, whenever I was in the mindset that the world is going to end at any moment, the rapture is coming and this small group of people is going to escape in the rapture while all other Christians are going to burn on the earth.

I was in that doomsday mindset and I thought everybody was and it took me a long time to process that. One of the first churches that we went to after leaving was a denominational church but they had a plurality of elders.

And I was asking somebody about that because it really bothered me. They weren't preaching with the same urgency that I had in the call. And yet the sermon was very similar. They just didn't, I don't think they believed in the pre-tribulation rapture, but it was very, very similar to what I had experienced.

Anyway, I went to one of the elders and I talked about it and he was the polar opposite of opinion of the pastor. And I was scratching my head thinking, how can that be? Can't you? You should be aligned in this, right? This is important.

And... had launched with a third and a fourth, and apparently in the church there were four different views on the way that you read Revelation from preterism to literalism, and I'm sitting here thinking, how can this be? How can you be aligned in this? And the end result was they were not aligned, but yet they believed that it was not as important to their salvation as, you know, hearing the gospel, believing in Jesus Christ, etc. So I went away with that. I started attending different churches and different belief sets, and I found that there's just such a wide variety

of people that believe so many different things. And yet at the same time, there are nuances in those beliefs that make them unhealthy. And like you said, some of them are actually dangerous. What we had, our belief on the end times, was actually really dangerous. Our belief on revelation was, what was that like for you? Whenever, so you were in Charismania, you left, and now you've had a time to think about it. What would you say would be the most, what's the word, the most unhealthy doctrine that you left behind? That is a great question, John. So, and I should have said this in

the beginning when you asked me, you know, kind of an overview, I went from 11 years in a prosperity gospel church. Then I got into a couple of these really odd, like the one I'm mentioning, full preridism. Then there was another one that I couldn't even tell you what they believe it's so odd. I can tell you that the leader who thought she was a prophetess, you know, I'll never forget this started to, well, she didn't come up off the ground, but she was making us believe that she had sort of risen up off of, and her people, her little posse of women that

followed her around, had to kind of help her come down, you know, after that. I didn't even know what you call this stuff. We normal people call it levitation. I want to say that, but yet she really wasn't, but I think she believed she was. But anyways, and then I got into the completely

complete circus is what I always resort to calling it, of hypercarismania, where I got into full on deliverance ministry, and they are, oh, what do you call it? And they believe they're the most elite church going on, and dominionism, and all of that mess. Okay, I'm starting to forget some of the terms as you go down, there's so many of them, but dominionism thinking that we have to go take dominion and seven mountain mandate, all of that I was in. So, and I really truly in looking back, believe that the prosperity church.

really primed me to get into everything else. Of all these other churches, they had all these other slants, from all these crazy, what do you even call them that took place over time? God's generals.

You. God's generals. I could not think of that. And these people that had so much charisma that they created these movements, right? And these movements over time have now caused churches to have these, what I call, slants to them.

And anyways, I would have to say that the one that I wasn't in that long, and the one that taught full preridism was the most heart-breaking to me. I actually still have the messages to this day where I said to the apostle, you're telling me that Jesus already came back.

So what are we doing? What do we have to look forward to? I was heartbroken, and I was beginning to believe it because he had all the scriptures to back it up. Of course, a master, I said jeeter, right?

And I was heartbroken, I was shaking, I was like, oh my gosh, that was really, really traumatic for me. But then of course, I'd say the last one was really dangerous too, because I got into five years of deliverance ministry that I was doing like six, seven days a week, four hours a day, that really took a toll on my entire life.

So that was dangerous in other ways. One was more just heart-breaking. Like, what am I, what is this all for? What do we have to look forward to? Where are we going? You know, where the other one was more just exhausting and tiring, and I could never do enough.

So they were dangerous, but in different ways. And then the prosperity, church was dangerous too, because they taught me you know, that if I don't give to God, if I don't give it my money, what kind of person am I?

What kind of Christian am I? And of course, they were, oh my gosh, million dollar facility, and they always had to make it even better. No, no, no, no, the technology isn't quite good enough.

We can't not have this or that. We need you to go all in, they'd call it. All in campaigns. Give us everything you got. Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started, or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism, transition through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation?

You can learn this and more on William Brannum Historical Research's website, William-brannum.org. On the book's page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen McCummery, John- McKinnon and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.

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On behalf of William Brannem Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support. I was thinking as you were talking, the first conversation we had together was so different than this one now, in a weird way that I'm probably going to embarrass myself because I had the same issue.

Whenever I was in the group that I was in, we had our own loaded language. We said things that if you're outside of the group, you had no idea what it meant. Even if you're a Christian, you had no idea what it meant.

So I left that. I started doing this thing where I'm talking to many other people. I started it as a podcast and people come every Friday and they share their stories. You can usually tell the ones who are like fresh out their language, I don't understand half of the things they say because they're talking about all of these different, different weird things.

I would say things to you and you made the funniest jokes. I think you went on to make comic strips about some of the things that I said because they were so bizarre. Oh, remember, I told you we were dog tags.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah, remember. So I was thinking as you were talking, I'm hearing less of the loaded language. So I'm going to let you embarrass yourself now as much as I just did. Whenever you left this thing and you had this loaded language, there's a point in time, at least for me, when I suddenly realized, wait a minute, I'm saying something that there's no way that this person understands what I'm saying.

Did that thought ever hit you? Did you ever feel like I really need to change my vocabulary? My gosh. So many times. I'm like, they're going to have no idea. Actually, it would happen where I would have conversations with churches that were more real and normal and people in those places that I was kind of, because I was searching of where to go.

And I would say things and they would, using this what you're calling loaded language and they would look at me like I was crazy. And they'd go, no, you don't understand. This didn't happen like in another country.

This happened 10 minutes from here. 10? Do you think it's that for it? It's not. You know? And I, yes, all the time that happened. And I was like, okay, I'm starting to sound crazy.

And I'd be like, trust me, I'm not crazy. Sclaiming to people, I really not. I just really love God. And I really wanted the truth. And these people took me under their wing and they acted like mentors and teachers and they like I was family and, you know, please don't think I'm crazy, I just, it does sound crazy.

I remember the first time it hit me, we had these things that we called them small group, I guess most churches have something similar, they have different names, but we're sitting around and everybody's going around each person talking, you know, individually and came to be my turn and I looked at their faces and I could wait a minute. These people have no clue what I'm talking about. And then the next question, which I'm going to ask you, once I realized that I had the loaded language and I realized they had no clue what I was

talking about, I connected those dots, we had loaded language and that was tied to a doctrine. And that doctrine may have been tied to chains of doctrine. And I found myself going down the path of, okay, I just use a phrase, they have no idea what it was, it meant this doctrine, they have no idea what it was, is it in the Bible? Nine times out of ten, it wasn't and you had to have all these other doctrines to support it. What was that like for you?

Did you have the similar thing happen to you? Oh, yes, again, all the time and I was always trying to think of like, okay, how do I put this in simpler terms for people?

So they'll know and understand what I've been through and it's like, again, it was so foreign to them because there'd be one church that was only ten minutes from another one and they have never heard the likes of some of these things they've been doing talking about, you have to wear dog tags and we've got to take over the seven mountains in order to get to this point, you know, in order for Jesus to return, we have to usher them in and we have to change atmosphere, you know, we have to decree and declare things and all of this stuff

and they're like, and I'm like, okay, well, yeah, let me try to show you in the Bible and yeah, I can't do that. I don't know. Let's get out. They gave us all these papers. Let's put in there and these books. I have them. It's really in there. But it's so hard to keep track of John, which is why I have so much respect for you and the historical way you have broke this down over the years because you're right. This language comes from doctrines that have developed over time, some of them overlap, some of them don't, and just trying to keep track of

that all. It's just mind-boggling. And now I'm talking to you, I'm realizing I have finally forgotten some of those terms and I'm actually glad. I'm struggling because I want to say I'm to make my point, but my brain has let them go, you know, there's no such talk and I just finally became a member of my local church and they preach the real gospel and they know nothing about seven mountain or to decrease and down.

Acclerations and all of it they know not a fat and it's like I For I'm forgetting these terms because they don't exist in my world anymore It's just not biblical and for the record. I just want to make it this clear for the record I swore to myself. I was not going to mention your dog tag So if that church finds out that you wore dog tags, it wasn't me They I've told my testimony. I actually when I became a member which was just a few weeks ago Because I was supposed to become a member before that and I shied away

You know what happened and I'm okay saying this because I said it to them as well Someone knew came in and this is a perfect example that I want your audience to keep in mind when When outsiders come into leadership to a new church And you don't know Everything as far as what their doctrine is you're not positive of their doctrine and all the different ones They've been exposed to it can leak out and Next thing you know you're singing songs that are a little off There's little things being said here in there in sermons that are a little off and no one quite catches it

Because it's mostly good. It's mostly truth and I think that's why the Bible talks in Galatians I think Galatians 3 about a little leaven gets into the whole loaf and So that happened I was almost ready to become a member and someone Said just a couple little odd things that were just a little off and

I freaked out. I was like oh no It's gonna happen and you know and so anyways Come find out John no church is perfect news flash, right and and and if it has good leadership This stuff is gonna get caught and dealt with it's not always perfect and so I became a member And I said to the pastor when I can't become a member I don't just want to come up there and say yes Because they they ask you questions to make sure of what your beliefs are before the whole congregation as they should Right, and so they asked me these questions and I said can I also share my testimony a little bit while I'm up there

I just need a few minutes. Well 11 minutes later I got a lot of it out and I shared and I said some of the things so they're fully aware The I've been transparent about what I've been through and that's usually the best way if you're transparent People connect with you because you're more genuine to them I've had people come up to me and I had people come up to me after that service and say thank you so much for sharing there Because I learned something from what you said or I've had similar things happen and gives me

the courage to talk about it a little bit. So they pretty much know the craziness I went through. So besides the dog tags, whenever you got involved with these movements, there are ways that it changes the brain and you do things and say things that you wouldn't ordinarily do or say.

And then after you leave, you suddenly stop and realize that wait a minute, what they did to me, that that was unethical, what they did to my head. And you name anything specifically that you became accustomed to while you're in it.

And then realize later that before I joined this thing, that would have really alarmed me to have Don or said this thing. I was really affected and I won't say, I guess no, I was not alarm.

I wouldn't have been alarmed by it. But it was really hard for me to wrap my head around, you know, you have to sit with God, this amount of times in order to take these trips to heaven and, you know, have these, get these prophetic words, just because you're not disciplined enough, you're not giving them enough of your time, you're not sitting with him.

You know, I'd get to the point where I would just sit there and I'd time myself, have I sat here long enough and it's just not something that's easy for me to do. I'm a very, you know, I move a lot, I think a lot, you know, and I think that really messed with my head and that was really wrong.

That was really psychological torture to do to someone to think the reason God isn't doing what you want to do is because you haven't spent enough time. You haven't gotten quiet enough. You haven't listened hard enough.

You haven't said this many prayers, you know, and so that was very emotional, I feel like it was messing with my brain, making me think, again, making me think I wasn't good enough. And I would always wonder, how are these people being caught up in the spirit and being taken before the throne, being able to talk to Jesus and, you know, as one told me, he would hang out with Jesus, fly with Jesus, they had a tree house, I kid you, not, they played in the water and splashed each other, I'm not making this up.

And I'd be smiling on the outside and I'd be saying, oh, I'm so happy for you, that's so amazing. And inside I was heartbroken because I'm like, God must not love me. He knows I would want to be able to do that.

He knows I would love to visit him. Why can't I? And that stuff really messed with me, making me think I wasn't good enough for God. So I want to say it was alarming, but it just really messed with my head.

I wanted to ask this question. last podcast we did because I was really curious when you describe the church that literally you're wearing dog tags in, whenever you join one of these groups that are more destructive than the others, usually the doctrines come gradually and there's two different ways that it happens.

The first is they won't, whenever there's a new member in the audience, they actually won't go into the deep, they call them the deep subjects, the deep mysteries or whatever. They won't unload all the doctrines instantly because people would just run screaming.

Instead they give you little building blocks to build up to that doctrine or they're so far out that people can't really connect the dots themselves until after they've been there a while and they're like, oh wow that's a deep mystery and it was there all the time.

Yes. I'm curious. So now this question actually applies to this podcast because I'm curious, how do you see that differently in a church that's not destructive? Are they open with the doctrines, do they have this kind of gradual thing?

Are they very transparent in what they're teaching? So that's on the side of the new but back to the side of the old if you could answer first, what was it like? Did they gradually introduce things or did you just connect the dots later?

And the first one that I was in, which was prosperity, you know what's interesting? I was there for 11 years and the very first service I attended. I remember and I hadn't been church in many years, a friend invited me to church.

Here I was in a mega church, prosperity church and I, and the, it just happened to be. It just was a coincidence that the day, first day I attended, they had given out their statements, you know, to be so transparent on how they were spending all of their money that we were giving them.

And so this service was about going through this document. Here I hadn't been to church in years. Last time I knew it was probably 10 years before that that I had been in church and it was a Methodist church in a very small town and I remembered what it was like there.

And then we're getting this document to read about all their financials and I was like, this is strange and then I remember whispering to someone, is this, they always, like, no, no, no, you just happen to be here at one of our financial disclosure services, you know?

And so actually it was from day one that everything was about money. So I can't say that and didn't disclose it right away and of course that service, any, you know, time for ties and offering, take your money, wave it up and show God what you're giving him from the very first service.

It was about waving your money up. If you have money. Leave it up to God, show them you got it, you know? So, nope, that was right from day one with them and it never changed.

And then I would say those little, the places I was in, just trying to find my way that were these really strange like full preridism and I don't know what the other one even was.

Those were more tricky. They weren't so full on with what they were teaching. And that's why I didn't even recognize it. Those were, yeah, not so right from the get-go, but the circus I was in the last one, basically you would get invited by other people to go and it would always be for the same reason because you're gonna get a prophetic word because that's what you would do.

As soon as you came and it happened to me, you got a prophetic word, the service would stop, you'd be highlighted as this anointed individual who is now there and the Lord wants to speak to you and you would get a prophetic word.

And so it was known to be a place, if you go there, God will talk to you, you'll get a prophetic word. That'd be one of the reasons. Or it'd be because they had four, 12 foot angels posted at every corner and they were the only church around that had an angel posted.

So tall and I would try so hard to see these, John. Hahaha. Services, I sat there trying to pay attention but wanting to see these angels so bad that they swore were there, right?

And the other people could see and would draw and everything, so I kind of see them, just got to stare hard enough, right? And that's one of the things that you and I have in common because we were told at Brandham's church that the angels lined the walls and I would sit there trying to see an angel, I never could see one either.

Yeah, and I think that's because we were the normal ones that we couldn't see these things. But, so I, yeah, so now I'm totally thinking about that. I don't wanna think about that. But he had these ways of marketing and he would say them all the time, like yeah, we have the angels are here, you know?

And again, he would always give someone a prophetic word and they did deliverance ministry there and no other churches around were doing that so that there was these big marketing tools. So you would know that these things were gonna happen and you would want one of them or all of them and you would go.

And it would be full on. There would be no hiding this John, no hiding from the moment you walked in. It was a circus and it was never stopped. It never stopped. It was so bad.

I have recordings that I've gone back and and and place. for people or listen to, and they were like, no, that can't be real. You would hear screaming, crying, agony, uh, children. You would name it, uh, would be in, in these audio recordings and these visual recordings that I have. People laying out all over the place, convulsing, twitching, you know, a prophetic word being given over here, someone crawling up the wall over there, you know, an angel. Like, this, people wanted this because compared to their church, theirs was boring. Yeah, I remember that feeling. I left and then suddenly the church was,

it was calm and casual and there was nobody screaming at me behind the pulpit and, and granted at my grandfather's church, we had to listen to a recording of somebody screaming at you from mind the pulpit. And this guy came out and he's very measured, he's calm and he preaches a calm sermon and I'm like, how do these people get anything from this? I mean, the church that I met now, I have never met a pastor and I said this in my testimony that is as humble and laid back and just gentling quiet and what, it makes him a wonderful leader and, and teacher of the word.

It's just as humility and ability to hold himself that way. And for so long, it was like, ik to me. I was like, can he do a little bit more? Like, move around and do something more with his hands and get a little louder. Do something because I was so used to a performance and getting my emotions going, that that was boring for a little while. You know, I had to get used to it.

It's used to the word of God being enough, John. Imagine that. Imagine going to church to learn the word of God. Now, are you one of the people who are under a spiritual covering? Oh, yes, and how dangerous it was for me to not. What's it like now that you're no longer under that covering?

Oh, geez. You know, it's funny because I would say I've had the most, there's been a couple times where my mind for a split second has gone to, and I'm going to be completely honest for people out there. I should go back because my life has never been so hard. When I was in that, I had so much fun. I had so many friends. I was so sought after, John. I was famous. People called me all the time, emailed me, texted me. We want to hang out with you. We want to do ministry with you. You're so

and not dead. Can you cast my demons out? Can you, you know, and then I went to this quiet, most people can't stand me anymore. They think I'm crazy. They think that I've lost the Holy Spirit, and they've marked me.

He publicly marked me and shamed me and now I've lost most of my friends and everyone thinks I'm Kuku for Cocoa Puffs now, you know. So that was just, it was just really hard to go to that.

So there's better couple times where I kind of felt sorry for myself and I went, geez, my life is really lonely now and really boring and but it's not, but that's what I, you know, that's the enemy, you know.

Gosh, if I just get back into that, you know, I won't fully believe what they're saying, but at least I can be part of it and I can do those fun things again. My head has gone there a couple times and then I quickly, the Holy Spirit quickly reprimands me. No, you'll never go back to that.

I'm also curious, on a more serious note, I'm also curious when you leave one of these things, everybody cut you off, you know how it is. Yeah. I'm curious after this much time has passed, has that anything with that change to people still communicate with you?

I love that you asked me that because that was my soul, one of my soul purposes and wanting to do this and it's not, please don't anyone feel sorry for me. Please don't anyone say like, oh, that's so terrible what they're doing.

You, this is exactly what the Bible warns us of happening. Exactly what's happening is exactly what we were told would happen. We would be persecuted for our faith and people would leave us when we don't think the way they think and we're not controlled by them anymore.

They want nothing more to do with us, you know. So it's happening, but no, these people that claim to be my family would come to my home, break bread with me, talk to me, check out me, call me and one fell swoop with me saying, I don't believe in modern day apostles, I don't believe in modern day prophets and I don't believe a Christian can have a demon in them, in them.

Those are the only three things that I made known had changed in my doctrine. With that being said, totally cut off, never to return. And I've tried to knock on the doors of some of these people that I really did miss, not really knock on their door, but maybe send them a text, maybe try to call them.

No, no, and that's been, it's, it's hard. I'm not going to lie, it hurts still. Yeah, so nothing's changed. There has been really no one in that place that has ever, and what's crazy is I brought a lot of them there. These are my friends. I actually ran into one at the bank the other day and she's in it because of me because I invited her there and she's still in it and she said, hi, it couldn't get away from me.

fast enough. It's hard. I have a lot of people who tell me exactly what you just said. The people just simply never connected. In fact, most of the people I know they they didn't. If you could give some advice to people who are going through that because there are several, what advice would you give them?

Go back to your word. Keep reading. Be part of a real church that has a real mentorship, real discipleship, and the more you get immersed in the truth, the more that the lives and the hurt that people put you through won't penetrate you anymore. They won't have the same effect on you anymore. It's just staying in the truth and reading your Bible and to continue studying and praying. And God does. He has made so many ways for me to heal from this regardless of those people.

Why would I want to be in the lives of people that are in such false doctrine anyway? It's very hard to be in relationship with people as much as I love them. That is very hard, right? To be in relationship with people that are because an argument is going to happen pretty early on as you're having a conversation with them because the doctrine is so crazy. It's so different. So my advice is stay in the truth and continue praying and trust God, not people. Don't put your faith in people.

It's very good advice. Thank you so much for doing this. You're welcome. I had to learn the heart way. Absolutely. Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information or to share your story, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at www.William-branam.org. For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR. Available in Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.