Leaving vs. Healing: How High-Control Religion Follows You Into the Workplace

Music Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Brandham Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Brandham Historical Research at William-brandham.org, and with me I have my co-host and friend, Franny Nance, a former member of CARESMANIA. Franny, you are aware of this, we've just talked about it, but to the audience, I've been having multiple conversations with multiple people about healing and what it means to heal before you move on because this is a process when you're coming out of one of these groups. It's really, really difficult,

and it makes people go through all kinds of levels of pain. I know it did me. We had this conversation recently where you need to heal and move on because it's like if you're in an abusive marriage and the abuse of spouse has been abusing you, everything looks like the abuse of spouse once you move out if you move too quickly.

Well, if you're in an abusive church and you move out and you go to a new church, every church is going to feel abusive if they get just a little bit too strong in certain areas. So that's one avenue of healing, but there's this other avenue that I want to explore with you, which was your idea and a good one at that.

What about, whenever you're going through exactly everything that I just said, but it's applying in different places that you didn't expect, such as the workplace. There are elements of manipulation that you had in the church movement that honestly, pieces of that, you can start to feel when you're in the workplace and it may not be for any destructive reason.

It's just that people have similar personality traits, but you're hypersensitive to those traits. And so it makes work different, very difficult. It makes relationships difficult. And anyway, I wanted to explore the difficulties that people have beyond all of the other discussions that I've been having and try to help people with moving on in their lives.

Yeah, that's a great introduction and I will, you didn't ask me to do this, but just a plug for your other podcasts that you've, episodes you've done with other guests talking about their healing process.

And then just your ongoing series that you've had with, I think Chinno, John McKinnon and others, they're really good, just sort of talking about the history of a lot of these movements, because it does prime you to see patterns. You can draw pictures.

or else between your life. And I've reached out to you because I'm about this specific topic because sort of growing up in this environment, a lot of people will tell themselves, well, I didn't grow up in a cult necessarily.

It wasn't, I can leave. It wasn't what you think of as the stereotype of a cult, but growing up in this type of high-control movement with that, and I say with the special flavor of Charismania, especially as a kid, it really primes you, like it changes your brain, it for other high-control, whether it's relationships, or you just find yourself being attracted to those specific destructive behaviors or groups

until you can heal or start to identify patterns. And so I think, and I say that a lot by identifying patterns, but I wanted to speak to something personally a few years ago that I found myself in, and I had mentioned this before, but a work environment that closely, as I, you know, the longer I was in it, I realized how much, you know, once I left, how closely mirrored a lot of my childhood, my family system, churches that we attended, you know, I kind of found myself asking, how do I keep ending up with these people,

or ending up in these types of environments, and it really is what sort of, you know, I'd been in therapy for years, and I hadn't been attending a NAR church or anything like that, but it was leaving this toxic work environment where it really opened my eyes and was able to find language to put to, basically, what I had been experiencing my whole life, and why I had been stagnant in therapy.

You know, I've been working on things, and you know, I kept finding myself in similar patterns, and yeah, so that's why I wanted to kind of speak to that because the, how do I say this?

It's the foundation that I see that's laid for a lot of parents that do this for kids in these movements, because they are, they use very radical, intense language, you know, end of the age, revival, you know, 100% instant obedience, you know, not questioning God and any type of doubt on belief, you know, that's opening the door to the devil, you know, you want all that God has for you, keep yourself pure, holy, beyond fire, you know, like go for God, tell people about God, if you're not telling people about him, you know, winning souls for Christ, like, you know,

you're damning people to hell, and God's going to be disappointed in you. So there's a lot of that intense language, and it really does get embedded. it in you, if you're growing up and it's in the music, the songs that are sung, it's in the preaching, the stories that are always being told, actually one of your podcasts that you recently released, I think it was you and Chinno, you guys are talking about the stories.

It's less about the actual Bible, it's like they may throw out a scripture, but then it's the stories. And so a lot of that that gets in there and primes you and as well, if you're in a movement where they heavily emphasize prophecy, the prophetic discernment, back it's in there too.

So there really is this whole, like you're the chosen generation, be intense for Jesus, God's gonna use you, has a mighty plan for your life and it's this intensity of trying to find that.

And so that's kind of where I'm sort of going with this or being primed with that revival language that give you all, all these prophetic words, growing up around it, seeing the adults in my life, talking about at the end of the age, Jesus is coming back, God's gonna use this generation, everything's a demon, discernment, intuition, whatever.

And now looking back, sort of learning, like these are a lot of people's trauma responses, it's not discernment, it's, there's a lot of undelt with or unhealed mental illness.

And sort of led me and primed me for these groups where I'm looking for, okay, I need to find my calling, like where's, I need to, I'm not finding it here, where I would end up at a intern for youth minister, Bob Winer in, what I was 19, in college, and then jumping, you know, then that being exhausting and draining.

And so then jumping to IHOP KC was there for looking for my calling and trying to find it out and trying to be good and do the right things and exhausting myself with that to jumping into Amway, which we talked about in our last podcast, you know, until, you know, finally, you know, with this work environment that, you know, I'll talk a little bit about the patterns.

It really took that to kind of see, oh my gosh, sort of looking at the patterns and then trying to figure out, okay, I need to find another way. This is really such a big conversation.

It's actually much bigger than this one single podcast. I've actually been looking for the right personality to do this, it's not something that any, a person who's adept in discussing psychology can handle, but there really needs to be an effort to help people with their personalities after they have left a personality called.

That is something that I've looked on the internet as just simply an untapped area of... expertise. There needs to be somebody who can do this and I'm actually putting the call out there if there's somebody listening who feels like you're a good person to do that contact me on the website because I really, really do want to do this. I had a conversation just last evening with a person who had left the personality cult that I came from and this person had a very similar issue to what I hear a lot of the others saying. They don't

really know how to do relationships after you leave a personality cult because everybody has the same personality. You're all kind of alike and that's the way that these cults develop the central figure, whether it's an apostle or a prophet or whoever it is. You're trying to mimic that personality. When you leave it, you suddenly feel disconnected and you want to connect with people.

And so this person I was talking with last night said that he had this problem because he would just follow people around like a puppy dog wanting so badly to have a relationship with him and they're like, what are you doing man? Get away from me. You're just, you're not handling relationships in the way that other normal people, and I'm using that, we're very, very loosely, normal people who have not been in a personality cult would handle it. And it really comes down to this. It wasn't just a set of doctrines that define the church. That's why you can look

at a personality cult and you can say this isn't really about Jesus because it's not about the doctrines. It's more about the identity formation system. When you join it, you're given this identity and it has to match the system. Otherwise, we'll kick you out and you go down to the church down the street, right? So it's changing your identity in such a way where revival culture, for example, when you're a child in revival culture, it's not theology that you're experiencing. It's the atmosphere. I mean, the atmosphere of revival culture, right? So when you leave this, you're stuck

with the idea that you were destined for something because that's part of the personality and prophetic words, for example, you mentioned that, well, those can actually become identity assignments. This is who you are. This is what God is going to do for you. Well, take that to your direction in the workplace. Well, I'm destined to be a great leader. But what if you're not? What if you don't even have the personality traits or even the skill set to become a manager in the organization, but you're trained to believe that you must be destined for more? I had this conversation with

Cheno just, I don't know, a week ago, I guess. There's not really a lot of churches in this new apostolic reformation that tell you, now, you're going to have a normal Christian life. You're going to live long and nothing exciting is really going to happen to you. But you're going to be blessed because God love you. And when you die, you're going to go to heaven knowing that you lived a very life and nothing really exciting happened. That's not a sermon that works really well in NAR. But what about the person who goes to work? You're going to go to your job and it's

going to be very mundane and you're going to work nine to five and you're going to be bored out of your mind because you're doing the same thing every day, but you're going to get a paycheck and you're going to live happy because you have a paycheck. You see how those two can connect. When you feel like you're destined to be something greater, you're never really satisfied with what you have. And so as that forms into your identity, now you carry that with you everywhere you go and your identity is actually blocking you from having a

happy fulfilling life. 100%. Yeah, and it's that intensity. There's this conditioning where it's there's this, you know, emotional high where you're trained in this type of environment that you know, having an emotional high experiencing an emotional worship, you know, whether it's like joyous or crying or whatever it is that equals, you know, I'm in right standing with God. So hype equals I'm in right standing with God. So you get used to seeking that like and you get used to condition to look for that same language where it's sort of like an external confirmation. Like, oh, I got a prophetic word. This person called me out. They saw me,

they saw my hunger, you know, I, you know, so I'm presenting as very hungry, desperate for God. Like, I'm the most, they're not thinking you're special, but the same time. It's like that, it's like a confirmation, like, okay, I'm special. And those leaders, like, it's very easy if you're looking on the crowd and you're seeing people, you just pick anyone out and say, like, I see your hunger and, you know, say like a general word of encouragement to them or to everybody.

And so it's that external validation. And they, it's embedded in the preaching and in these movements and in the books, like just this, it's an intensity. I mean, because I remember, and I just want to speak to, I think Mike Bickle is probably one of the worst. And that's why, you know, when I, I mentioned this work situation because that boss is very similar to a Mike Bickle.

I think a lot of times when we leave these movements, we get very conditioned to like, we look at a Benny Hinn and we're like, oh, he's ostentatious and flamboyant. You know, you give your money, look at these expensive cars, he drives. But a lot of these leaders, like a Mike Bickle, are very manipulative and deceptive in that, in that term, like vulnerable narcissist or covert narcissist, where they have a lot of double speak. They present his humble and they'll say stuff like, you know, because Mike Bickle used to say that, like, oh, you're not special. He didn't say,

like, oh, you're not special. But it was just kind of like, oh, God wants us to live an ordinary life. So he'd say that. But then the whole culture at IHOP KC, and I would say a lot of these church movements, like Harris and K.

as media, N-A-R, they know it's bad to be like a biny hint. You don't want to look flashy, but at the same time, so you say out of one side of your mouth, like, oh, God wants you to go out into the world and to work place, but then they reward the intensity.

Like a loop, he always had a looingle come or whoever, and it was this intensity of like, wow, this person, they're working a normal job, but wow, they come up here to IHOP KC and labor in the place of prayer for hours, and that, so that conditioning really does prime you that I would say looking for an external validation, like, because you can't trust internally, like, you're looking for the leader, the anointed one, I'm in this, you know, atmosphere, and then two, you know, it's, then when you start to question, like, you're set, we always say in this podcast, you turn off your critical

thinking, you're like, gosh, well, that seems to conflict, like, you're saying that we need to go work a normal job, but at the same time, like, we need to spend hours on laboring the place of prayer, because Jesus is coming back soon, what is it?

You know, which one is it or, you know, bringing, so it does, there is like a disconnect, disassociation there. So that opens the door to another conversation, which also could be a greater podcast or series of podcasts.

I'm fascinated with psychology. I have been for years, ever since I realized what they did to my head, I wanted to know how they did it. And one thing that I've learned is really, really difficult, but was kind of easier for me than other people leaving these movements.

I started, whenever I left this brand of cult, I was in my own business, and so I had a consulting company, I was working with different organizations, and I got to see and experience the small organization, which might have two or three to five people, the large corporations that had a CEO and CIOs and all of these layers of people, everything in between.

So I had the opportunity to experience multiple levels of business structures. There's one thing that Bob Scott says, and he said it in his book too, about IHOPKC, that's actually accurate. Most of your C-level figures have an A-type personality, and some of them are even narcissistic, and that's true, I've encountered this, and those people are very much like this.

But when you leave a destructive group that is led by a narcissistic personality, and that personality becomes part of the identity of the group, you are very uncomfortable about somebody who has this. So I was in organizations where I simply could not work with the top level figures, because they had this disorder, and I was hypersensitive to it.

And worse, I knew the way that they could manipulate me, because I had been manipulated for 37 years. I was successful in that because of the way that my business was structured. I would...

tell them what I required and I could put people in between us or I could hire somebody to be in between us. So I didn't have to deal with it, but not everybody can do this.

There are people who are in organizations that they just have a really strong personality conflict with their boss or the people above them and what do you do with that? You've been conditioned that to believe that these people will manipulate you and then here's where the line gets really sketchy.

I read one of the things that I read when I was leaving the cult was this book by Edward Bernays, propaganda. Highly recommend anybody, read it. It's talking about how you achieve mass persuasion, this kind of thing.

Well there are elements of manipulation that are all across the business world, especially in sales and marketing. They want to manipulate you to buy their product. Is that bad? I don't know. It's not something that I feel comfortable with now that I have been abused by manipulation, but at the same time I have bought products that I was manipulated to buy.

And I like some of them. I really do. So you're going to experience some of the things that hit you very negatively in the church world that you just see everywhere. It's on television.

I remember talking with people who were telling me that they just can't watch TV because the commercials are sending them subliminal messages. When you first come out, there's this weird conspiracy theory mindset that you go into.

I believe some of what they said until I started learning psychology and I'm realizing, no, that's not exactly what's happening. They are feeling that manipulation that is in the marketing. And that's one of the things that we, as people who escaped these high demand groups, we all feel it because we were manipulated.

But you have to determine what are the areas of healthy manipulation if that is a thing. And those that are really destructive and you have to be able to set your boundaries. So for me, I had to learn to put up boundaries and admit to people openly, whenever I had my consulting business, I actually fired clients that I just simply couldn't work with.

So I could put up a boundary. Not everybody can do this if you leave. You're in the workplace. Sometimes you have to have your job. Yeah. Yeah, I would say too. It's interesting how it conditions you.

I was conditioned very much to, you know, any sort of, that's why these terms, it really has been so helpful to find definitions to terms or find the language. So for example, the book by Wade Mullen, something's not right, it was a great one just to put language to what you're feeling, but the same thing of the term love bombing.

And I know a lot of people, quote unquote, overuse these terms. But there's a lot of that that primes you to then continue to find yourself in these situations. And I think until you really step out and try to heal, it's like, gosh, why am I attracted to this type of personality or what is it that keeps drawing me into these types of groups, let me figure that out.

And that's why, to another thing you pointed out in one of your podcasts, which I thought I 100% agree with and think it's actually very helpful advice. When you find a therapist, you seek a therapist, you want to find a good one.

Sometimes it takes a little while, but I made a point not to go to a Christian therapist and no, they did not talk me out of my religion, that's not what they do, that's unprofessional, they're not trained to do that.

And I have the benefit, I have a very good friend who's actually, she's a therapist, but it's helpful because it's an outside view that I think that is healthy to train a person, they're licensed, they're on a board, they have to follow certain protocols.

So in order to work through your church experience and what's God, what wasn't, what was that, that actually was very helpful for me because I keep talking about this working thing. I just, when I had gone, decided to go back to work after I had my third child, I ended up working in this organization where the leader was presented as very humble and like a really strong Christian and just this all-shocks, I'm just a homeschool country boy, whatever.

And it was a friend that got me the job there and I started as his, the owner's assistant, just like doing admin stuff and was really snowed. Like, wasn't particularly attractive or anything, but I just was like, oh, he's so nice.

And he was always like praying and quoting scripture and I just want to serve people and love people, whatever. And so I, he presented himself, now I have the term, a vulnerable narcissist, just like very innocent and so I remember thinking as the more I worked for him and he eventually promoted me to the director of operations, but I would notice people in his organization that were friends or family and I'm like, they're using him.

And so I would look at everyone else, but the leader, the person at the top, where he was in charge because they present themselves as like, well, shucks, I don't know. And so really it was over time.

I kind of wrote notes to keep me on topic, but my point is that the leader presented himself as a really good guy, used Christian language and any time I would, there was always someone else's fault, he would deflect too.

And I'm like, yeah, that person's, whatever. So any time I would raise any kind of issue, with the organization, a lot of times my concerns would get reframed as me gossiping or as me not shutting down gossip and how he was disappointed in me and what not.

And because of how it was raised and in these various organizations, I needed, like I like to be affirmed as like the fixer, the, you know, I'm, you're doing an amazing job and what not.

And so when I'm getting this feedback that I'm causing division or, you know, bringing in gossip, I was just like, oh my gosh. And so, you know, I work harder and I stayed there for a few years, but it really, it led me into exhaustion.

You know, finally, my husband was like, you know, this is going to cost us our marriage. You don't quit this job. And it was really exhausting and draining and, and I think the, the harder I, I worked the longer I stayed, you know, the worse it got and the worse I felt about myself.

And again, no one saw the leader for who he was until, you know, the closer you get to him and you see it. And if you would, to point this out to anybody, they think you're crazy, jealous, manipulative.

But I would see how this man would twist words, deflect back onto other people. And there was just so much chaos and confusion. The closer you get to the top, but would never take any kind of accountability.

And so anyway, I left just exhausted, destroyed, you know, luckily I was able to jump into another job. But my point was that I kind of came out of that thinking, what the heck was that?

And that's what then led me on my journey with what is complex PTSD, what is narcissism, what is gaslighting, what is love, what are those terms? And then hearing other people's stories and then being able to connect those patterns of like, because when I was working for this company, you know, at this point, I, you know, I wasn't going to an NAR church and I hadn't really grappled with my upbringing in the sense of like, what is, what is the care's mania, what is, what are all these prophecies?

I just kind of threw them to the side. But as I'm working here and I'm starting to see things work out and there's all the spiritual language being used, some of those old prophetic words, I was like, well, maybe, maybe this is what, you know, maybe this is my calling.

Like, it started to get that high of that. So I do think it's interesting, if you grow up in this, you do need to grapple or not even grow up in it. Like, you've been a part of it.

You do need to grapple with what was that, all these spiritual gifts or prophetic words or whatever, because the residual that still can stay there. But my point being is that after I left this organization, it was a year later that the Mike Bickle stuff came out.

And I 100% believed it, the minute I read it. And it was interesting because for years, even after I left IHOP, I left in 2005. And I would just always use Mike Bickle as an example of like a great...

leader, because I was like, well, he's not been a hint. And look at him. He's still humble. He makes all this money and whatever. And then, you know, all these allegations come out with their true, I believe, you know, a legend. And I was able to draw that parallel with my old boss, because he was just like that, like, you know, or, you know, evasive and, you know, presenting in a certain way that throws people off the scent or makes you question, because you're like, well, maybe I'm not really, but I guess I'm wrong.

Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transition through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation? You can learn this and more on William Brannum Historical Research's website, William-Brannum.org. On the book's page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.

You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top. And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching.

On behalf of William Brannum Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support. You have a way of bringing up topics that I really want to explore, and you don't even know that you're doing it. One of the things that you just brought up is something that I really haven't talked about much, but I really, really wanted to. And that is Christians in the workplace. And I know I'm going to make a lot of people mad to go ahead and hate me for it, but I'm going to tell you straight up that all of the laws that have been passed

about the governance of religion in the workplace, I'm fully on board with. I really agree with this. And here's why. What you described is something that is a common problem that anybody who has escaped an abusive religion can identify with. There's that one person who's usually a boss who's overbearingly Christian, and you feel like you must gravitate to them because they're the one who's outstandingly Christian in the organization. But there's that one little aspect of it that really makes you uncomfortable, and you never can put your finger on why it is. And you start to feel inwardly guilty. Why am I uncomfortable?

This person's obviously a Christian. The problem is that what they're doing, when they're doing this, not only is it in violation of a few laws, it is very, very manipulative. Think about the ones who are not Christian who are in the organization. How do they feel about this? And I know that's going to step on some heads. So think about it. Think about slightly differently. There are 40,000 Christian denominations, and that's probably greater than that number.

Now, each one of them has doctrines that you don't agree with, and that's why they formed their own denomination. When somebody's doing this, they're actually of a different religion than you. That's the uncomfortable part you're feeling.

I don't really connect with that, but they're Christian. I must connect with them, but what they're doing is they're trying to manipulate you into their form of Christianity. Yes. This is a huge problem, and I will be straight up.

I have no problem somebody expressing I'm a Christian, but when they're overbearingly Christian to manipulate others to become Christian, number one, that doesn't work in the first place. That's not how you would attract somebody who's not a Christian to be one.

Number two, it is really only for show for the people who are of a different Christian faith to bring them into your version of it. That is manipulation, pure plain and simple. I've experienced this, and I have a unwritten rule whenever I was getting clients for my contracting business.

If they opened the door and said the word Christianity or Christian or Jesus more than five times in my introduction speech, I never signed a contract. I would walk away from it because they were gonna try to do that to me, and I just don't have time for that.

I wanna focus on business. If I wanted church, I would go to church. I don't do that in the workplace, right? And I know again, there will be people that hate me for it, but if you've been abused, you're of a mindset that you have to think of it like, what if this was an Islamic person who was doing the same thing to me?

Would I be as open to them praying to Allah and wanting me to, encouraging me to pray to Allah? I'm not Islamic, I don't want that. I would just push that person away. Well, if they have a different doctrinal framework, it's kind of the same thing, you just don't recognize it because you've been manipulated to believe that it's either on or off right or wrong, this person has it or he don't.

Yes, that is so well said, exactly. Cause there were times where we have some serious HR issues and it was very much like, well, if we fire this person, how are they gonna hear the gospel?

And I'm like, what? I mean, just bizarre language. And yeah, I don't think it's not healthy. It's incredibly destructive to have. And it's very unprofessional. And I 100% agree with you. But there's reasons why we have this separation that's important.

But I think this intense care, I keep saying intense care is mania, but it really is. It primes you that it has to infiltrate all parts of your life. And that's, it used to irritate me like, I still see it.

It's a lot of Christians are like, oh, kingdom business, kingdom this, kingdom that, you know, whatever God wants you to prosper and have a kingdom business. And it's just this, you know, bringing, you know, God, He's listened to all of your business or whatever.

And it's like, why can't you just be a normal person? Or just, you know, not have to like scream it from the mountaintops what you are. Or you don't have to like say I'm a kingdom business, but it's just kind of like I'll, these are the ethics of, you know, morals that I guide my life, you know, I'm looking at the Bible.

So I will live that way instead of, you know, screaming out loud and having to feel like you've got to convert everyone to, to what you believe. There's another problem that really was strong for people who came out of the group that I came from because we were in a destructive cult, a very destructive framework that was a doomsday cult.

And some of the charismatic NAR groups, like you mentioned, Mike Bickel, IHOPKC, they have this strong doomsday focus or strong end of time's focus. And it's really urgent. It's urgent that you do it now, you must be now, everything is now, now, now, now.

And that's the marketing. You get, that gets into your identity like you were talking about earlier. There's a problem with that when you enter the workplace because you still have that identity. And everything is now, it's me, I'm the special one, I'm the chosen one.

You're looking for the greater paycheck, the greater position, all of this stuff. Exactly. I know people who are self-employed, who are disrupted by that mindset because they want to go after the get rich quick schemes.

Everything must be now. I must have this big paycheck now, who world is about to end. And they lose focus on the slow and steady to build up their business properly. And so I've watched businesses actually crumble because of this.

In fact, I hate to admit it that I've had that happen to me as well. It was just part of my mindset and part of your makeup and identity. When you're in an actual workplace that has a corporation structure and a corporate ladder, it makes you want to jump up that ladder several different wrongs instead of going properly up.

And there are people who actually do it. I'm one of the people also who jumped from the corporate ladder from entry level developer, all the way up to CIO and a corporation. I did make the jumps.

But the problem is when you do that, when you skip wrongs of that corporate ladder, you're not actually getting the experience that you need to do the job properly. When you do make the jumps.

So there were situations I would find myself in that I had no clue how to handle just because of this. It really was a detriment to my career. And I know that there are other people who share similar experiences with their workplace environment.

But that instilled sense of urgency is destructive, not only in the church, but also everywhere, every aspect of life. Yeah, the instilled sense of urgency. And then this, I mean, I would say I'm guilty of it, of this entitlement of, you know, I'm anointed.

I am a believer and God has a call in my life and he's coming back soon and he wants... us to prosper in order to establish his kingdom, your own earth, and whatever, prepare the way for him.

And it is that, and again, it's not, so I wouldn't say the opposite is, well, I leave these destructive groups and I have to really rebuild who am I? What is my identity? Well, I'm not like, I'm not saying I'm a piece of garbage, nobody, but, you know, but when we were attending the Presbyterian Church in Virginia, it was really great.

So I remember, it was very steady, stable, and there was a sermon that just sort of talking about, it was a series, just about renewal and, you know, God renewing all things and just, it's such a gradual process, you know, it's just a eternal thing in a sense of the renewal.

It's not an instant, you know, happening or whatever. And I think a lot of what these charismatic, and they are people, they've really latch onto this intense language of, you know, taking the kingdom by force and, you know, God's kingdom and they ignore, basically, like the sermon on the mount, or like my fickle, they talk out of both sides of their mouth, saying, oh, sermon on the mount living, and then the closer you get to the leader, and sometimes, you know, you need to see that too, whether it's a work environment or church, the closer you get to the leader,

you start to see the things that are making you question, like, wait a minute, you keep talking about sermon on the mount living, but then you do this. And then if you bring it up to the person, they twist the words and flip it back on you.

And that's what kept happening in my work environment. And one person I would love to talk to would be, I think she was the former director of operations for Mike Bickle, her name is Elizabeth.

Elizabeth, if you're out there, we'd love to talk to you. Cause she, I was listening to an interview of hers, and she would talk about how, you know, she would see the books and then present to Mike, you know, we've got people who are raising support that are giving their all, and they're like living in poverty, you know, and it's just true.

People at great sacrifice, I mean, who have families, you know, felt very cold and just, they had no money. And so she was trying to say, look, we need to pay people. So there's nothing I have was built on free labor.

People that volunteered their time, you know, giving. And he would, you know, through, I love the term word salad of another friend that coined this term called Confusion Spray. Like when you try to talk to someone about something, she would say, like, it was the same boss.

She was like, I tried to talk to him, and he sprayed his Confusion Spray and I ended up leaving his office agreeing with him. And so that's, you know, and when Elizabeth Herder was telling the story, she's saying how he immediately started saying, oh, well, you know, if I had a million dollars, we could pay everyone and, you know, this, we can't in all these excuses.

And when she said that, it was like ding, ding, ding. Because that organization where I used to work, it wasn't. Christian, but we grossly, in my opinion, didn't pay people well, and I'm thinking even selfishly, like, you want this organization to keep going, we have these good people that we've trained.

We need to pay them. And he would say stuff like, well, if I had a million dollars, you'd just this evasive language. And so when I heard Elizabeth say that, I was like, man, there is a pattern to this type of personality.

And that's why, you know, I do encourage people. Like you were saying, you don't want to be paranoid, you're not looking for, it's the same thing. If I'm not looking for a demon around every corner or a conspiracy, but there is a level of, you start to see a pattern in your critical thinking, the little, you know, in the spiritual world, we'd say the checks in your spirit or whatever.

It's like, it's not using that language, but there's a little, like, hum, pause that you have, you explore that, like, because you can, you start to see patterns and that is when you can start to identify patterns, you could put language to these personality types or not to, you know, put them in whatever, but just to help you, so you can identify, okay, I keep getting attracted to this, I keep ending up in these types of situations.

So now in my work, such, you know, I'm looking for stable structure, you know, if someone says, like, we're like a family here, I'm going to leave, it's like, that's a red flag to me, you know, things like that.

And like you were saying, if there's like all this Christian language, you're getting like, you know, bunched with, like, from the moment of beginning, you know, meeting, that's when it's kind of like, okay, ding ding ding, red flag, you know, here's the patterns that I've experienced, even though I seem to be attracted to this, because it's comforting, you know, I, I need to leave, or I need to find another way.

So you use the phrase confusion spray, I use constipation of the brain and dilute the mouth, because that's really what it is. But what you're describing actually is really important that people get, because, so you talk about the martering complex, you're starving yourself, you're not getting paid, well, think about this, that when people leave, it isn't just leaving that makes them safe, leaving isn't the same thing as healing, you leave, but you have been in a system that has trained you to live in an unhealthy way, to think in an unhealthy way, you are still,

things like hyper vigilance, you're still suffering with those things, and so you're attracted to other people who are hyper vigilant, to other groups that are, you're looking for this urgency, what if you go to a church that doesn't have that urgency, you think, well, those people just aren't on fire for God, and it's not that, it's that you have a different level of urgency than the other people have.

But that carries with you everywhere you go, unless you're healing mentally and psychologically shoes that they psychologically implant it in your head, you're still going to be sick. Think of it not psychologically. Think of it like somebody gave you the flu.

Well just because you walked out the door doesn't mean that you left the flu back in the house. You still have it. And so people often confuse leaving with healing and it's not so simple as that.

You do have to heal. You have to learn. There's a lot you have to learn and you have to relearn how to be, how to have interactions with other people in such a way that is triggering, is triggering your true identity to come out, not the identity that they have programmed into you.

Yes I would say that that is 100% true and that has been true for me. And I think also having to face a lot of it too, like I had mentioned, you know, a left eye hop, you got married to a normal person.

We keep saying normal. I'm saying it ingest. I keep using the word normal too, but I get what you're saying. It's somebody who hasn't been affected by all of this mass. Correct. Yeah. Who hasn't wasn't raised in this.

I didn't really know. And so I think, but my point is that instead of, I think I just tried to ignore it like, what was that? You know, and sometimes there aren't things you don't have an answer for everything.

But I see now my ignoring, you know, not really grappling with what I believe or what was my experience at IOPKC, what was my experience growing up, what was my experience interning for the youth minister or being, you know, what do, like, what is this prophecy, what is that?

Just sort of ignoring it. It, I believe for me personally, it primed me to continue in these high control destructive groups or relationships. And that's true for when you're trying to heal, like you're coming out like that, it's that's going to happen.

But it really wasn't until in this work environment, after I left, and it was just kind of a mess, where I was thinking like, you know, I haven't grappled with the quote unquote prophetic words I got.

And I really had to go through and be like, this is not true. And it is, it's depressing, I mean, it can be devastating to kind of go back and look at those old journals and what you believed and why it can be embarrassing.

There was a lot of shame, but at the same time, because that, it kept me, because I held on to that and didn't really face it, I believe it kept me in this destructive work environment for longer than I needed to, and made a lot of excuses because of that, like, well, we're going to get this payout and, you know, like, look, we're helping people and God's going to, you know, use this and we're going to make a lot of money and, you know, for God's kingdom and blah, blah, blah, and, you know, really having me thinking, like, well, maybe

this really is, maybe. It was true and trying wanting it to be true because it's like making sense of it. Like, maybe I went through all this because it is true and looking back it's like, well, no, for me, no.

It wasn't. You know, there's a lot of personality, you know, unhealthy, you know, coping skills on my own and learning. And so I think something that I'm grateful for is it was hard going through it, but at the same time leading me to, you know, I found your podcast listening to other people's stories and their healing journey.

And really, through therapy, finding my own internal piece, and again, it's not perfect. I obviously still have to work, but I want to say, not necessarily internal piece, but emotional regulation. I think that has been one of the most distressing things that in my life, why even being attracted to these charismatic groups or a charismatic figure that says all the right thing, it's that, you know, I don't know how to regulate my own emotions.

I need someone else like externally to do it. So if I'm feeling low, that's what we would do. Let's go to a worship service, you know, this person's in town and you have this wild worship and you're crying and whatever, like dancing, blah, blah, blah, you get that high, you feel better.

So you associate that with, well, I just need to keep going versus I feel low, it must be a demonic attack, I must have opened the door to the devil, scenes attacking me, whatever, you know, I need to pray harder, I need to go back to this church, I need to ask for prayer, I need to have deliverance, I need to listen to this worship music over and over again, instead of like, let's, you know, it's all distractions, instead of for me, it was like, what, let me, you know, what, maybe I am depressed, maybe I'm sad, you know,

maybe I'm just tired, like there's a lot of that too, where this doesn't have a deeper meaning, or this is some greater spiritual meaning. And yeah, and I just, I do want to speak to people that might be in this position or sort of questioning, that, you know, I really did look for people's stories too, that they weren't like, I left a high control church and now I'm an atheist and hate God.

Like, that was hard, I didn't want to hear that. Like, in nothing against that for anyone, I wanted to hear stories of people that were able to either maintain a faith, or, because I needed that.

So honestly, it was Dr. Hassan, Steve Hassan, who's, you know, went back to his Jewish faith or whatever. So I'm like, okay, like, you can leave these destructive groups, but still, you know, have faith or something like that.

The way you said that actually brings up another interesting point that could make a full podcast. It isn't just learning after you leave. When people leave, they feel like they suddenly have to learn everything or relearn everything, but they never stop and think about the unlearning.

part. You mentioned Dr. Stephen Hassan how he connected with his faith. Well, that's something that you had to have unlearned before you could go there because you would never say that you should pay attention to how a Jewish person connected with their Jewish faith. When you're in this type of movement, you're like, I have to de-convert this Jewish person. He needs to come to my belief set. But the way that people connect with their faith, it is, it can be healthy.

And I understand that there are some logical and theological issues with this, depending on the religion. But the point I'm trying to make is this, there are certain things that you do have to unlearn because we have been trained in a very, very unhealthy way. Think of it like this.

If you were in one of these hyper-vigilant churches with all the spiritual warfare, you go to the minister and you say, I feel really afraid. He would say something like, you're checked in your spirit or you have the demons are out to get you. What have you done?

It's usually something that you have to do to conquer it. And so they put you into action because quite frankly, one of the manipulation tools that is used, if you can engage the person into something active, they will not even critically think. They just go after the action.

But what if this was your child that comes to you and says, Mom, I'm afraid? You would never say, well, you're checked in your spirit, little kid. You would say, well, why are you afraid?

And you get them to stop and think about it. And so you have to unlearn what it even means to be afraid. What is causing the fear? Is it something that is legitimate? Is it a legitimate fear?

Maybe it is spiritual. If you're a spiritual person, well, how do I know it spiritual? What tells me that it is spiritual other than I'm simply afraid? Most people who are afraid, they would say, well, maybe it's dark. And maybe I just watch a scary movie, something like this, right? But you have to unlearn all of this training. And then some of it, you do have to re-learn, but some things you have to just totally throw out. Unlearn this nonsense, throw it out.

There isn't really a replacement for that kind of nonsense in some cases. No, it's interesting being a parent. You mentioned parenting.

And there are times where I'll talk to my sisters and I'm like, my kids have no idea. It's like, you know, if they're, I never wound my son when he was, it was the summer school attended. And he was like, mom, I feel so like sad or depressed. I don't know. And I'm thinking, you know, I was talking to him. I was like, well, I mean, you're nostalgic. It's the, you're used to being around all your friends at school and it's the end of a school year. Now it's the summer.

You know, I used to feel that way when I was a kid. And again, I'm not minimizing his feelings, but I'm also like not overspiritualizing it. Like, you know, for it was for me where it was like, okay, well, the devil must be attacking you. There's a covenant of which is concentrating on you because you're so anointed or did you open a door?

is someone jealous of you. And now you're picking up on that jealousy. So it's always this like deeper meaning versus there is a level of peace in that it's like, I'm human, this is a feeling, the feeling will pass.

That's that. And I think like you're saying, there's a level of unlearning. I don't have to identify every little thing and have some spiritual root to it that it does take time. There's this really great book called Falling Upward written by a Catholic priest, Richard Rohr.

And he talks about two halves of life where you have these tools that you develop to get you to midlife. And they served you well. So you mentioned hypervigilance. I would say that tool served me very well.

And I would argue that a lot of people in the Charismatic Movement have who are hypervigilant. They call it discernment. But it's honestly hypervigilance. You can see patterns read the room. And I would say that hypervigilance did serve me well like through my childhood up until midlife.

But what I started to notice is in my professional life, and even in my marriage, it was actually very detrimental, the hypervigilance. I'm reading into things that are not there. And then trying to adjust or whatever.

And I just remember my husband being like, I can't with this. He's very, I am who I am. There's not a deeper meaning. I just have bad day. Or the same thing at work where it would lead me just super stressful or I would just read into a movement that my boss may have done or said or throw a line and then took it to an extreme.

And then it ended up, it's just, it's been detrimental to me. So this book by Richard Roer was so helpful because he was saying the tools they get you to your midlife, whatever, they served you.

They got you here. It's time now where you're noticing what's not helping you anymore and might be a detriment. And the unlearning, he calls it falling upward, sort of an unlearning of these old tools.

Thank you, you helped me get here. However, now I need to learn a new way of in your second half of life and whatever that might look like. And so for me, it has been, OK, this isn't serving me anymore.

I need to find another way. And for the audience who's listening, Franny is no longer hyper vigilant. She's hyper focused because the moment you mentioned covering of wishes, I'm sitting here. I'm fighting back after it.

I don't know how you kept from looking at me and lapping. I will be honest with the audience. If that's part of your indoctrination, you have to unlearn that thing because that's one of the more absurd.

things that's out there, but you know, there's so much more we could talk about. I feel like we've just skinned the surface, but the end result of all of this, if you take nothing else from what we've said, it's simply this, you have to learn that moving on isn't healing. You have to heal and move on. You have to do both.

And sometimes it's unlearning, sometimes it is relearning, sometimes it's learning something new, but for the most part, it's just simply re-evaluating. Back to the child who comes up and says, I'm scared, Mommy, what you do is you teach them to evaluate why they're scared. Why do you feel this way?

And you mentioned therapy and therapist, and I'm with you. I do not recommend somebody go to a Christian therapist. I know I may offend some Christian therapist out there, but if you've been in a cult, unless you go to a Christian therapist that has strong cult experience, you will fail. And I've seen it fail time and time again.

There are some that have it, and those probably are good ones, but if you can't find one that has cult experience, I would recommend to avoid it. But they will tell you the same thing. You have to evaluate what you're feeling and why you're feeling it, because nine times out of ten, it's something that they have put into your identity that's not even part of you in the first place.

So much more we can talk about. We'll put, say it for the next episode. Thank you so much for doing this. Thank you. If you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.

You can find us at www.William-Branum.org. For more about the dark side of the new Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR. Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

www.William.org www.William.org