Revival Parenting- The Family Damage Nobody Talks About

Music Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at William-Branham.org, and with me I have my very special guests, Vicki Nees and Charles Lee, former members of a high control group. Vicki Charles, it's good to have you on and to share your story about being in and leaving a high control group.

Maybe if we could begin by telling everybody a little bit about yourself and we'll start with you, Charles. I was the oldest of four children. In 1960, my parents and my oldest brother and I went down to the altar to give our lives to Christ. My dad before that was an alcoholic, a cigarette, three and a half pack of day smoker, and he was not a very good guy at all.

But after December 9, 1960, there was a marked change in his attitude and his dedication to being honorable and Christian-like. I will never betray him for that. He just was a wonderful spiritual-changed man.

I have a lot of heritage that's been staying with me for a minute forever, so I can't complain about that part. It's just all the other stuff. Yeah, the devil's in the details with all that other stuff. Vicki, how about you?

I'm Vicki and I was number three of four children, the only girl, three boys and myself. Things were a little bit different for me. I didn't get the physical punishment as much as I got the emotional and mental stuff going on, but we'll get into that.

I got married when I was 18 years old. I left home shortly after I turned 18, as did my older brothers. The Lord brought a wonderful man to me. It was the only way it was going to work, as if the Lord brought him to me because I was so damaged.

There was just a lot going on, and I knew that if God didn't bring him to me, it wasn't going to happen. We were married 40 years when he unexpectedly passed away almost seven years ago. In the meantime, I have to credit him. His name was Ed.

I have to credit him for helping me to grow into the person, the confident person that I am to... day because I can remember him telling me not long after we were married that he grew up in a home. His mother was a Christian, but his dad was an atheist. So he grew up in a home where there was love, but I grew up, but they were Christians, you know, his dad.

But he said, you grew up in a Christian home where there was no love. And he helped, he had so much patience and understanding with me. And he really helped me to come to grips with my upbringing and to be able to lay it at the cross and continue with my life. And I'm forever grateful for that. I like how you put that because we are all products of our own experiences, good or bad. Sometimes the bad experiences shape us in good ways. And ironically, sometimes the good experiences shape us in bad ways. But we, in the end, we are

products of our experiences. The problem is when you're in one of these high control groups, they manipulate those experiences or they will target your experiences and exploit them. And so they're contributing to the shaping of your person because they are engaging in and city's ways into your experiences. Sometimes they don't even realize they're doing this, but that happens. And what happens with this is sometimes it leads people in directions that are very unhealthy. And I'm going to be very clear up front. This is one of the more difficult podcasts that I'll be doing. The subject matter is very, very difficult for me. And it really

hits home personally. So I'm going to try to open up and contain my emotions. But this is a subject that nobody really talks about. Whenever you're in one of these high control groups and it manipulates you and your parent, it sometimes can change and alter the way in which you have relationships with your children in a very, very negative way. And as a child growing up in this type of environment, I can assure you that it makes it very difficult for the rest of the child's life. So we're going to get into that a little bit, but hopefully something that we can say can

help someone who is trapped in this kind of environment. Correct. And if this helps somebody else to spend through something like this, you know, that's the whole idea and point of this whole conversation to us. So as the oldest member of the family and now the patriarchs, since my parents are gone, I feel a heavy responsibility to try my best to help my siblings to make right decisions and whatever. And my sister has been so instrumental in taking care of our brothers in his situation here. You know, strokes are not nice things. You know, and being a strong tractor, I realized he was,

like me, for 16, 17 years to see him in the conditioning is now it hurts. It really hurts. That's our parents right there. I didn't plan that, but there it is. they're here with us. It changes the dynamics a bit. So, as I mentioned, this is a difficult subject. We're talking about parenting whenever you're in a high control group and when you're in a situation where the family unit is not as important as the cult is. And so, the children become valued less than the cult mentality. It's sad as that is, that is typically the way that

this plays out when you're in one of these groups. So, let's talk a little bit about, go back to your childhood. Let's talk through this authoritarianism, how it impacted you. What was childhood like? When I became a Christian, we started going to a church in West Palm Beat, or Lake Worth, called the Bethel Temple of the Sonless of God. It was started by the famous music and songwriter, Ira Standbell. He sold a twin engine airplane to start the church.

And his brother-in-law was the first of those the pastor. He was the first one we ever had. That was John Wilkerson, who is a David Wilkerson's uncle. David Wilkerson's uncle. Well, Ira was there at the church several times to show us new songs that he had just written.

So, they've been a really source of strength for me through the years. That's where I fell in love with Southern gospel music. So, what can I say? I'm trying to be as transparent as I can every time that I talk to anybody. I don't have any secrets, so to speak, other than inappropriate one sometimes. So, I had to be careful. But growing up, my mom and dad, I think they really didn't know how to show love. They'd been beaten down so much by their situation. So, you know, where are we going to learn differently from that because that we were in that environment.

So, it was tough. Yeah, I mean, they didn't, there was no love shown, there was no mercy shown. I can remember sitting around the table because all we had was each other. We weren't allowed to be around other people or other kids. We were very much sheltered. And so, if we got to get one at the table, I mean, there was obviously we were doing something wrong and we would get put down for that. We would get yelled at or even smacked. And I mean, if you spilled on accident a glass of milk or something, I mean, you would get punished for that. It was like the unpardonable

sin. It was like you knew matter. Well, you were always on eggshells. You never knew. You were, it was just rebellion on your part. Yeah, we were, we were always rebellious. That was their famous word, you know, you're being very rebellious. And it didn't matter what we did.

It was never right. Dad was very strict. He, he really beat the boys terribly, especially my brother Tommy, the one that's got the mention now. You see this? Yeah. That's a stainless steel metal ruler that my dad used in the printing shop and whenever I would do something wrong I would get a hundred wax and I had to count them. If I missed the count I had to start over with that metal rod. Yes. And now my brother Tommy if you know anything about offset printing there are there's a cutter paper cutter and it has a

resin rod down where the blade comes down and when they would get old dad would have to replace them. He would take the old one he would use that to to spank us with and you know my brother Tommy used to get a hundred five hundred a thousand wax. My brother would he got to the point where he wouldn't even cry anymore. That's how catalyst he became and you know it's very sad in his situation now as a 59-year-old man with severe medical problems to when he has an accident or he makes a mistake he'll sit on the side of the bed and he's

reverting back to that childhood memory and he he sits there and acts like he's gonna be punished and it's just very sad that you have to console him you know like that but yeah it was it didn't matter what we did you can't remember ever going outside and playing baseball or throwing a frisbee or anything we lived in Florida. It's just so hard. We had a podcast some time ago on the revival history series talking about what was happening inside of a commune that we called the park in William Brown was message compound and it's horrific the

things that they were doing and it included many of the things that you're talking about. I haven't really mentioned this a lot but I have family members that were doing similar things with their children and it it's really hard to talk through. They I have family members that were actually locked inside of a travel trailer in the blazing heat just as punishment for days on end and things that just should not happen to children I'll just say it like that and leave it. I have other family members the doctor investigated just a normal checkup but saw that the rear end had been you could tell something was physically

happening to the child I'll keep it G rated and say it like this and it turned into a big mess because the doctrine spear the rod and spoil the child just they take it to extremes. Now that was the the William Brown message cult and people say well that's just isolated to that that's that's not that that's not that common among the Pentecostal groups the fundamentalist groups but what I have seen is it is largely swept under the rug. The difference is, in the Brannum group, the park was swept under the rug. Not many people knew about it until, you know, in the last decade,

some of the news kind of broke. But in the larger organizations, there are so many different ways in which this can be covered up. And it's usually isolated to, well, this person just is not doing things in the way that they should. But remember that William Brannum was the foremost leader of the post-World War II healing revival.

If you go to my website and you type in physical abuse on the website search, you'll find a page where he is advocating for it, strongly advocating for it, not just children, but also wives, etc. This is wrong, but that is what was being taught in the movement.

As the leader, he was respected in his doctrine. So when he said do it, people were doing it. And it, it ranged to some pretty, pretty violent things. He was actually talking about using two by fours. So this, this is terrible. Whenever you're in an authoritarian group, the problem is because the parents are under such authority and they're such structure and

control, they feel like they have to do the same thing to their children. And so instead of raising them in a healthy way, they raised the children in an authoritarian way. Was that, was your experience as well? Yeah, we weren't allowed. Everything was regimented. On Sunday afternoon, you had to take a nap, whether you wanted to or not. It was nap time. And I mean, it was yard work or housework or cleaning or cooking or taking care of your sibling. You know, it was, there was no no joy at all. I was the oldest daughter for William Brannum because I was her backup.

Yeah, he's 10 years older than me. I'm, I'm the oldest of all four. And I babysat. I took care that babe, changing diapers, washing clothes, washing dishes, just about everything. So when he left at 18, guess who you've got to take over? So my brother to this day calls me mom, you know, because I was like a mother to him because I, I did a lot of that nurturing because mom wasn't, wasn't there? She was busy. I know that there are people listening who say, well, that's just chores, man. Everybody has chores. If you're a, if you're a child, you should have chores, right?

But the problem is this, when you're in a high control group, the central figure is showing authoritarian dominance over the rest of the group. That cascades down to the elders in the group. And then the elders, because by design, they're in that structure, they have to in, in turn, be that way to the members of the group. Then the rank and file members, they as family units, they start doing the same thing to their children. So it becomes more like a drill sergeant type parenting than it does actual parenting. And whenever it turns to that,

level. The children aren't doing things to help out because they want to help out or because the parents are teaching them how to, you know, take care of the house, et cetera. They're doing it because they're being manipulated and controlled in the same way that the parents are. It cascades down from level to level to level. The really hard part about all of this is, the parents often don't know that they're doing this because that's just the way it is, that's the way everybody else is doing it. When you're in that group think mindset, everybody in the group is doing it, that becomes normal. And so outside of this looking

in, if you were never in this type of environment, you have to understand that it wasn't normal. This wasn't normal at all. And because people who are parents are doing this to their children, even after they leave the group, they don't understand that they have severely critically impacted the child's lives. And again, I won't go too far with the details, but everything that you've said resonates with me because I understand fully what you're talking about. Yeah, it's very true. And you saying that I took care of my mom after my husband died.

I moved back from, I lived in New Jersey for 40 years. I moved back to Florida to take care of my mother in her last 16 months of her life. And I can remember sitting there one day because all of us were together, my brother, all three of my brothers, and I were sitting at the kitchen table. And I just said to her, I said, mom, I said, you know, it would really be a good thing if you could tell my brothers that all that happened and the things that we endured as children. If you could just say, you know, we made mistakes, you know, own it, you know, at least

acknowledge that there were mistakes made. And her immediate response was, I was following your dad. He was the one in charge. I was submissive to him. And the leader's wife was dealing with the same thing. And I said, mom, you both should have called the police. It was abuse. And I'm sorry that you can't acknowledge that it was abuse. But she was just following blindly my dad. I mean, that's what she was taught to be submissive that he was the ultimate in control and whatever he said went. And it was a real difficult thing to maneuver through, especially as we got older

and dad became, you know, because they had a Christian bookstore print shop eventually, they they opened their own Christian bookstore and print shop. And of course, we had to work there. We didn't have a choice. And dad also was a volunteer chaplain for 45 years in the local jail prison system. And he would have more love and care and time for those inmates than he did for us children. And we saw that as we got older. We noticed that, you know, You know, it was just we were just employees and that's and my husband did say that one

time he says you didn't raise children, Mr. Lee, you raised employees and you know, it was it was true. It was very true. I was on 74 now. I just turned 74 and I don't remember any involuntary hugs from my dad.

Somebody had to shame him into getting a hug from my dad. That's the other thing that not many people talk about or think through. In these types of groups, they often try to demonize everything and they will turn many things sexual that are not and I'm trying to wait cautiously with what I say here, but they will, for example, you mentioned the hugging in our group, they demonized hugging, they demonized any form of affection and turned it so sexual that if you were a man who walked up to a woman after the service and you gave a person a hug, it was a sexual

thing. You were invading the, you were lusting after the woman. That's really what it turned into and it's just disgusting when you think about it. I was a little uncomfortable whenever I started going to real churches and people were hugging people.

I was like, wait a minute, this feels wrong, but that's how it was and it creates a very unhealthy relationship because even the parents to their children, sometimes they, the things that they're teaching in the group, they actually apply to the family unit.

So hugging in some, I know other families are the same way, hugging was off limits even for your own daughter if you were a man in the group. This is wrong. This really changes the way that the dynamics of how a family unit can function.

But worse than that, as the child develops and grows up, it leads to all kinds of problems, especially with regards to marriage, how did that affect you? Did that impact your marriage at all?

Well, my husband and I were first, the first five years we were married. We had some difficulties. I mean, obviously he came from one end of the spectrum and I came from the other and we had to learn to grow together and I just had a lot of hurts and a lot of things.

My father didn't even give me away at my wedding. My grandfather, his dad ended up doing that, which was a blessing. But we went for some counseling and I can remember just knowing that I had to forgive them, that I had to accept them for who they were, that the Bible says to honor.

And so I chose to honor and respect them for their place in my life. It didn't mean I had to agree and it didn't mean that I had to be okay with all the things that had happened, but that I didn't have to let those feelings control me anymore.

And I turned to corner after that and God gave me such a love and love for them. And my husband was amazed that I... It was, I just loved them and couldn't do enough for them in like, help them with bills or come down and help them with things or whatever, little things along the way in life.

And I'm just so grateful that we were raised the way we were because it's created me to be the person that I am today. And I'm very conscious of, even with my own children, I have two children, a son and a daughter.

And the first few years were a little rough for me because I was under that authoritarian rule. And that's all I knew. And my husband had to come alongside and teach me where the middle ground was that we had to, we couldn't be all, you know, you got to do this, you got to do that, but bring some fun into it.

And I'm just grateful that the Lord brought the right person to my life to help me with that. Because I was kind of a mess. I mean, I was ready to get married. I was okay with that part of it, but being a mom and all the things that come with it, that was difficult, but we did it.

And my kids are 44 and 42 now, so. Yeah, like I said, it's just really so sad. The parents don't realize they're doing it, sometimes the children, they don't realize what's happening. And it's unfortunate for everybody involved.

Sometimes, and I'll say this with caution, but sometimes even the leadership don't realize what they're doing to the people because they're just caught up in that environment. It was in the healing revivals. Brandon was the foremost leader.

His doctrine was spreading. He was seen as a teacher, which is odd because he often mentioned, I don't know what's in the Bible, but I know they author real well. And yet, he continued to teach the Bible, which was really odd when you think about it.

But many of the things he were teaching were like these doctrines where you have to keep your children in line. They must do exactly as you say otherwise. They're insubordinate. It was awful. And it spread all throughout the revivals.

Did your family have any contact with the healing revivals? I was listening to one of your podcasts last night about the wine healing. And I'm like, wow, that brings back a lot of memories.

I mean, we weren't allowed to take title mall. We weren't allowed to take ass friend. We weren't allowed to do. I mean, if we were sick, we just had to tough it out and pray.

Yeah. We saw a Allen in tent meetings when we were kids. That was just, anytime there was a tent meeting come through, we were there. The tent revival tent was right across the highway from where we had the church that we went to.

It was in the Polo ground's mall, the Polo ground down there in West Long. And it was a big event. Yeah, when he would come, and then Stable Wilkerson came there a couple of times to do, you know?

We had Casper and Coolman came down to West Palm Beach and to the Palm Beach works a quick call. It's a lot of touring. Yeah, it's a leaky tip. And I was one of the members of the choir behind her singing.

Yeah, wherever the parents went, we went. We didn't, you know, there was no, you know. But I think one of the takeaways from learning to be submissive from my mother, because she did teach me, you know, I watched her and I, you know, I learned, it was subservience, it wasn't submission, it was subservience.

I didn't get to go to my, I was at my sister's wedding, but I didn't know all that in, you know, stuff that she was going through back then. That makes me sad that I wasn't more involved because being her big brother.

Well, he was dealing with a lot on his end too, so we won't go into that. It's another story. I know I got it back. I learned to guard my heart very young. I didn't just accept everything, even like today.

I don't, I don't, I'm very careful about prophetic words and all the stuff that's going on. I just, I, it has to resonate with me. I don't jump on the bandwagon. I don't jump into the crowd.

And case in point, I'm sure you've heard of WV Grant. Yes. Well, my grandparents were big supporters of his and gave him a lot of money over the years. They would be appalled now if they knew who he really was.

But I can remember going to, it was the Soul's Harbor church. And he was a, he was here in West Palm. And I was in a line to get prayed for. Everybody, you know, was going to get prayed for.

And I was just a, like 14, 15 years old. And I was in that line and the closer I got to him, the more uncomfortable I got. And I just decided that I was going to step out a line and I wasn't going to let him pray for me.

Now, I am ever glad that I followed that intuition, that Holy Spirit nudge to step out of that line because he really, he was a mess. Yes, he was. My dad was very involved with the full gospel businessmen.

You've talked about that, you know, he was. He was a secretary. Yeah, he was a secretary in the local branch. And of course, Deamus Shikarion would come to Miami a lot. And my dad was very involved with that.

And of course, and there's women's a glow. But the biggest thing was a big five. We were very, that the big five back in the day, a month for the shepherding movement. It was the shepherding movement.

The leader was the, he was the end all. It was his choice. I mean, you know, if you wanted to buy a car, it had to go through him. You know, the men sat on one side, the women sat on the other with the children.

My mother had to wear a hat to enter the building. You know, no, no, no, no, no, no. No, it was all like clear. I never, my husband bought me my first pair of slacks that I ever wore because I was, I was wore dresses in my whole life.

even working out in the yard and everything, much like the Amish, you know. And so yeah, I mean, there's just so many things that, I mean, I think one of the joys that we had was we would go to the migrant camps and sing.

And that was like a night out. We enjoyed that. We just, you know. Those people were just so sweet, they were just so loving and so appreciative of our coming, you know? But, you know, when that, I don't know if you remember back in the day that it was prophesied that a tsunami was going to hit Florida.

And that, yeah, it was back in the 70s, early 70s. Yeah, we had canned food underneath our beds and all over the place. I mean, mom and dad took everything to such extreme, you know, and they just listened to whoever, whatever, you know?

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As I mentioned before, I can relate to many of the things that you're talking about. And the things that I can't directly relate to in my own experience, I can put faces to within the movement that I came out of.

The way that the authoritarian leadership flowed downhill into the parents and to the family unit, it was devastating, especially as a child. You grew up and you just can't believe that this happened to you.

If you escape and you're able to unwind and unravel all of that stuff in your head, you're thinking, why on earth did my parents do this to me? But I don't want to lose sight of the fact that the parents, many of them are good people and have no idea what they're doing.

In fact, some of them, I would say, want to do the best for their children and some of the things that they do that wreak havoc in the minds of their children for the lifetime of their child.

They think that they're doing that because of God. They think it's a godly thing that they're doing. I want to talk to you that a little bit and I want to talk a bit about the character.

So you mentioned your father. Let's talk to your father a bit. Would you say that your father was a... person who was a compassionate person. You know, he was always so, it was always about other people, he was very compassionate.

People would come in the bookstore and he would have long conversations with them. I mean, if you came in and brotherly was standing there and you got into conversation, you were going to be there for a little while because he was a talker.

And you know, I'm grateful that it was what early, Tommy was born in 67. So it would have been 68, 69 that Mom and Dad left the cult. It was called Christian Revivals, it was in West Palm Beach, Florida.

And it was two brothers, Gordon and Curtis Gentry that started it and they were the heads. And when Mom and Dad left, I think that what made them leave was Dad went into, he was there working late at night and he had gone over to the pastor's house, which was on site and they were having a steak dinner.

And here we had two steaks, we had government commodities that people would bring to us. We would have leftover, day old bread from a bread store that somebody that worked there would bring to us.

I mean, you know, we had, we never went to bed hungry, but we never went to bed. Can't say that. Can't say that because my dad, whenever he would get to a point where if I did something that really made him mad, I would go without a meal.

But there were days when I had no meals, a whole three meals, I was restricted for meetings. Yeah, and I can remember, you know, when I was, after they left home, my two older brothers, the reading outside was left to me and we had a pretty decent yard and a lot of fruit trees and things like that that my middle brother had put in the ground.

And so there was a lot of weeding to do and I really did not like weeding, I did not like being out in the heat, I just did not like that, but that was my job.

And so on a Saturday morning, if I didn't get out there and do it before my dad had had enough, he would send me out there in the morning, he'd get me up at six o'clock in the morning and he would say, you get water and nothing to eat until the weeding is done.

And however long it took me to get that weeding done, sometimes it was late in the afternoon, all I could have was water. And that was just the way it was and you didn't argue.

And if you did, if you got, if you got mouthy, you got backhanded and I'd find myself looking up off the floor, you know, and there was no patience, no understanding, no care or concern about your feelings, your feelings didn't matter.

It was all about there was no mercy, no mercy. Yeah. It's really just awful. I mean, there are people listening who think, oh my gosh, I can't believe a father would do that too.

the child. But yet, at the same time, this was a compassionate person. So think of that dynamic, how that works. The cognitive dissonance when you're in the group will make you do things that you wouldn't ordinarily do. And it just wreaks havoc with the children. I can't even imagine what it would be like for you having been in an environment like that where you actually miss meals, having grown up in that environment. How did it, how did it affect you? Like, do you still hold resentment? You know, everybody's got to make the decisions on their own have how

they're going to deal with it all. I know that my faith in God has been 100% the strengths that I've had to deal with a lot of this stuff. And so, you know, I'm blessed. Yes. I agree. I mean, I, you know, there's just so many, so many ways we could have gone the other way. We could have been very disrespectful. I mean, you know, when I told my mom and dad that I was getting married, they were like, you know, wait a couple years and, you know, because they wanted me to work in the store. And I'm like, no, this is God putting me in this direct. Well, then they called me

rebellious and then they refused to come. And that's okay. I forgave them a long time ago for that. And I know it was one of their regrets, but it's okay. I, I just feel like sometimes you just got to take it. Like he said, you don't argue. You don't, you don't try to plead your case. You just kind of go with the flow. I mean, you don't become a doormat. You don't do anything like that. But at the same time, it's, it's like for the cause of Christ in my life and who I am and how I reflect him. Sometimes you just got to let some things go. And you

ought to forgive and move on and make the best of the situation. And although it was rough and there was, there was a lot of espiritual abuse. I had a little bit of essay and the other degree from a, my employer at the Christian radio station. That's another whole story. But at 15, I became a DJ at the Christian radio station because of my dad's influence, you know, with his programming and stuff. And, and I was an on air personality and I thoroughly enjoyed doing that.

And I did it until I got married. But the boss was not, didn't have really good intentions. And he called himself a Christian. So, you know, I mean, there's just, you know, you just got to take the good with the bad and spit out the pits. That's what my grandfather used to say. And I, you know, as hard as it was growing up as difficult as it was because there was no pleasing mom and dad. I mean, I was a straight A student in high school. And the day, the night I graduated, my dad and mom were always late. They were notoriously late to anywhere they went because they had to

do this or they had this had to be done. I had a grand entrance. Yeah. So anyway, so they came to my graduation and my dad had to park out by the street. because there was no parking left.

Well, somebody had thrown a beer bottle and broke the glass on the back car window. It was a station wagon. And I can remember him saying in front of my aunt, God rest her soul, she's in heaven.

She kept me going, my aunt Lorraine, she kept me going through high school and said, you're gonna be 18 soon, just hang on. She kept me going. Anyway, when he came out and he saw that, he goes, well, if I hadn't been here, I guess that wouldn't have happened.

I mean, what a thing to say to your daughter that's just graduated high school. I was salutatory in of my class. And I had never done anything by today's standards to bring any shame or dishonor to my parents.

I had never done anything like that. And to know that that's how my dad really felt. I mean, that was, it was very crushing. And it's like you could never be good enough. You could never do enough to gain their love or acceptance of who you are.

When dad was on his deathbed, unfortunately, I wasn't here. I was a, I was a professional truck driver for 18 years, 17 years. Well, I wasn't around very much. You know, I'd call him on a phone and do whatever.

But Mickey told me a story that will let her tell it about on his deathbed. After all he did to try to promote the cause of Christ, you know, when he became a Christian, this is what he said to my sister.

Yeah, he was, he was a track pastor out there. He passed out gospel tracks, printed them. He would go into the stores when my mom was shopping and he would roll them up and put them down in eight, six packs of soda.

He'd put them in there or beer or beer or he'd put them in the coat jackets or whatever. And he was always a witness for Christ. And he always had a jacket on because he had tracks in there.

But on his deathbed, after knowing 45 years, he was in the prison system, all the people that I know he had led to the Lord, he looked at me and he goes, I hope I'm good enough to go to heaven.

I hope I make it and I looked at him and I said, Dad, you have crowns in heaven, the amount of people that you brought to Jesus, I said, when you see him face to face, he's gonna say, well done.

And I just reassured him that it wasn't about what he had done. It was about what Jesus had done through him. And, you know, it was just sad to see your dad in that state, you know, to say something like that.

But you know, cause he had dementia too. And so you know that even in that, that he was reliving or thinking about things that had happened. Yeah, it is sad. I've talked to people who's parents.

were in hospice and you know they they can't help what they were in that's part of their life experiences they can't help the fact that they get sucked into a authoritarian cult or that maybe they were born and raised in it like my parents were born and raised and the group that we came out of my parents can't help it and the things that have happened that shaped my life experiences largely are a result of the way that they did their parenting but their parenting was largely a way of the movement and that's really where you have

to put the focus I could I could be very angry at some things but instead I focus all of my attention on the movement because it was the movement that actually caused most of the neck maybe not all but most of the negative things that I have in my past and everybody that I've talked to who has escaped that's really the case with all of them you have to put the blame where the blame is and it's usually on the movement sometimes not even the leader because the leader gets caught up into the mind control as well so you

have to separate what is a problem because it was a cult what was a problem because of parenting and then kind of work through that and it's it's really really difficult I know it's difficult I wrote a letter to him my parents forget when it was I was up in North Carolina in the 80s I wrote a letter I mean it was a long letter and I poured my heart out explaining different things that that happened trumped with them through the years and I sent it to them and I never heard a word about it from them they never responded to that letter my

grandparents and my aunts and everybody else knew about that letter because they were very appalled and I would write such a letter one of the things that I said to dad was dad you should be grateful for God's grace because you've been visiting these prisons all these years with people being abusive to their kids and all that you should be in jail because you were that way too and you should be grateful to God that he had mercy but that never was responded to that never said yeah that's the thing you know after after a few

years when we finally started talking because we weren't we weren't allowed to be around our relatives because they didn't want us to tell them what was going on it my grandmother my mother's mother said if she had known some of the things that were going on my aunt my cousins even my cousins were like if we had known we knew it was hard but we didn't know how bad it was we we would have done something you know and and that was a thing it was that was the control you were to be seen and not heard we were not allowed to express

ourselves if we did we were rebellious if we talk back if we tried to stand up for ourselves that was not okay we were not allowed I was not what you'd call a rebellious child in school Either, you know, I was the very much tried to file all the rules as the first born, especially.

However, when I did get called on the corporate about something that I had done, whether in purpose or inadvertently, when I got home, my parents assumed that I was guilty and would punish me severely.

Now, even now, going back to what we did, felt I tried my best to live a circumspect life, I tried to do what's right, I tried to think about things before I do them.

But yet, some days, there are days when I just don't feel like I'm worthy, you know? Am I really going to go to heaven, you know? And that's really the result of being inside of a group where the emotions are being toyed with and manipulated.

It was always this, it was never that what Jesus did was done on the cross once for all. It was literally, it was done once every Sunday. You go and they play with your emotions, they say, are you going to make it?

Are you sure you're going to make it? And they make you question your own salvation. And some of the adults who are more solid, maybe that's okay. I actually, I'll take that, no, it's not okay.

But to the children, it is devastating because to the children who are trying to find their footing and trying to understand life, well, if you keep ripping the floor out from under them every single Sunday, they're going to not be solid in their faith.

And then that continues to compound as you get older, you question everything. And there are many, many people who are just like you, you continue to question it. We were always, as children, we were always going to the altar or having to confess our sins.

I mean, there was no assurance of salvation. It was, oh, you messed up today, you're going to hell. You better get on your knees before you go to bed and you better ask the Lord to forgive you.

I mean, that was, I looked at God as my father as this dude up there waiting for me to screw up so he could throw a shoe at me. Yeah. Yeah, it was not, it was so difficult, so difficult.

Yeah, it is difficult. Even for your parents, again, the parents don't realize what they're doing. Was your father ever able to come out of this? Well, dad was not very much able to break away from a lot of that training per se.

I know one thing. When we were at any church we went to and attended for Sonny's School, our biblical training was very strong. We learned scripture, we learned how to, you know, to serve things.

Definitely. And that's been the most wonderful benefit that I ever could ever think of. I mean, you know, what are you going to do? I mean, you're in this clouty mud pit and you've got to try to find a way to do it.

get clarification for things. So thankfully, you know, like we'll listen to things on podcasts and stuff that just does not bring true. And my, my dealers go up really quickly. You know, everybody pats their backs on these certain quote-unquote profits. They just, eh, that, you know.

Yeah, I mean discernment is, is a huge thing that I took away from our childhood. I learned to test the spirits. I learned to guard my heart, like I said earlier. And, um, you know, I'm grateful for the way I was raised, but I'm grateful for where God's brought me from, uh, 1985. My husband, I went for some deep counseling and it totally rearranged my life. And it brought joy and it brought peace and it brought the assurance. And we went on to be worship leaders and, um, also, uh, use pastors. We were use pastors at the church where my husband got saved when he was 12.

Um, and there was joy in serving others. And if I learned nothing else from our childhood, we did learn to serve. We did learn to have a servant's heart to be, um, thoughtful of other people's feelings to be thoughtful of, um, where people are in their life. And, um, I, I don't know that mom and dad did taught us that on purpose, um, because I'm not sure. I mean, my mom was could be compassionate, but she could also be very, um, harsh with people if they, especially if they came against her or my dad or, or were critical or something. I mean, she didn't take criticism

very well at all. And so, um, if nothing else, I've learned to be very compassionate, um, to other people's feelings to try to, I mean, I don't jump headlong into, um, friendships or, you know, social gatherings because I'm, I'm just, I have to read the room. I have to, I have to know what's going on, where people are coming from. And that could be a positive or a negative, I guess.

Um, but the friends that I have, I've had for a long time, I have some friends that have already gone on to be with the Lord. I always gravitated towards older people because, number one, they had wisdom, but because I was probably looking for a mom and dad figure, you know, in, in my life.

And so, um, yeah, I, I, I'm grateful. I'm, I've never been sorry for how it was raised at the time you are at the time you're like, I can't wait to grow up and get out of here.

But I'm talking about as an, as an adult looking back, it shaped me to be the person that I am today, and it shaped me to, To be compassionate and caring and thoughtful of others and to show Jesus in a different way. We had one pressure relief Situation that we always went to When we get around the dining room table we could drive my parents not should we were cracking jokes and all kind of stuff No, and when there was four of us it was hard, you know They couldn't figure out which one is yes the leader

It was funny though. It was fun Bless your home and then when we got to be adults when we go out to dinner and we'd start this stuff There's nothing they could do and we could just cut loose cut loose

So you've had a very difficult story. This has been emotional for me I I don't talk about it much But I can relate to many of the things that you describe here and it does have an impact for the rest of your life That's really the sad thing. In fact, there are some people who I have on the podcast and you can kind of sense it If you've been through something like you're describing and somebody begins talking and you can watch them Just kind of veer away from the elephant that's in their room You know what's going on behind the scenes. You know that they to have experienced what you're describing

It is more widespread than anybody realizes it is dominant through this type of Cultish environment and it's really sad On both sides from the parent side from the children side. It is really really sad So these people they become adults some of them escape even after escaping. They're still plagued by it They're that elephant is still in their room and it haunts them It's really really difficult if you could give some advice to those people who are still struggling With the way that the family dynamics was ripped out from under any sort of normal structure the way that the cults have impacted these lives

It's horrific. What advice would you give to people who are still struggling with this? Well, I know for one thing that over the years I have been very very desirous of finding people that are older than me to help me Mentor me and and how to live my life and be a good example to those around me I have always respected elderly people Now I are one so to speak When we went to the nursing homes as kids I Was had such compassion and love for those people because I could see they were the closest to eternity

And they needed to be evangelized and they needed to make sure they knew the plan of salvation and I was glad to be there You know, there's a lot of people out there that are hurting and I live in a retirement community now where people are just clueless There is a dementia or Alzheimer's or physically unable to do stuff and I feel so very compassionate and so worried because I feel in adequate to help them.

Most of them are totally setting their ways to the point where nothing's going to change them. And I struggle a lot with that one. Could I feel inadequate? But I still just keep plugging along, because I know that the eternity is forever.

So I try my best to try to find an opportunity somewhere to be of help. I would say my biggest thing that I would say to someone that has been through this kind of situation and growing up like this, you first have to forgive.

It's not necessarily for the person that hurts you. It's for yourself, because it frees you from being put in a box and being beaten up all the time. You have to let it go.

You have to give it to Jesus. And Jesus is the only answer for any of our trials and tribulations. And with that, when the forgiveness comes, there's such a release of your spirit, your inner man, the stuff that has held you in an entanglement.

It just frees you. And from there, you can blossom and be the person that God created you to be and find friends, find people that are like-minded, find people that have been through the same situations, talk it out, share your experiences.

Don't be afraid. I mean, I thought a lot about this while I was waiting for this day to come. The Bible tells us to honor our parents. And I don't believe anything we've said or today has been dishonoring to our parents.

It was our story. It was truth. It was the way it was. And the best way to honor them is to show the forgiveness of Christ and how, even though it was tough, and we had rough days and rough moments, and there were times when you just didn't know how to respond or whatever.

God can bring you through that. There is hope. There is grace. There is unmerited favor that none of us deserve. And even though life is hard, and we go through things, his grace is sufficient.

And he, even as a widow, of almost seven years, his grace is sufficient. Do I like my situation? No. But I've learned to blossom in it and try to be thoughtful of others that are going through something similar.

I mean, I was young. I was only 57 when my husband passed away. But there are so many other people that I have it worse than I ever did. And so I'm just grateful.

for the cross, for Jesus, his sacrifice, and for forgiveness, because to me, that's truly where it's at. My parents, my mom was in the hospital for, I don't know what it was to sit with, but dad and I would have to go up there two, three times a day to visit mom, because he was worried about mom.

I was getting ready to leave to go back to work, my truck to school back, and so was at the last time I was going to be with my mom, with my mom and dad, while she was in the hospital.

And I don't know what happened to make me say this, but do you remember the show of the movie The Shack? Yeah. I have learned since then that that was not all scriptural, but it was an allegory.

And I was a truck driver and I was sitting in my truck with my CD player, blaring the audio version of that book, and I'd be driving down a road and tears just pouring down my eyes because it brought back so many feelings.

And I would cry out to God and just ask Him to help me forgive my mother and dad for all the things that they had put us through. And I finally got a release from that, and I was standing at the foot of my mom and dad, my mom was bed, dad was standing there, and I said, you know, I'm getting ready to leave.

I got to go back to work, but I want you to know something. I wrote you a letter that poured my heart out about how I was feeling about all the stuff that we've been through so family.

I said, you never acknowledged it. You never, you know, even made any attempt to discuss any of those issues that I mentioned. Well, I said, I have chosen to forgive you, you know, you did what you knew you had to do and you did what you did because you didn't know any better.

So it's, you know, so I said, I forgive you. And I don't know how long it was before dad passed, but I hadn't really had a relationship with them at all. I talked to them on the phone once in a while, but it wasn't, you know, all that gung-ho on talking to them.

But when my dad died, I started calling my mom every morning to check with her and check on her. And I missed that because, you know, we got a chance to talk and share things and just laugh.

You know, so I missed that part. So as long as you have them keep control, keep with them, don't reject them because it's not good, you're not going to get it back. All I have now is memories.

Well, that's very good advice. Thank you so much for doing. Thank you so very much John for your time for listening and hopefully it helps someone move a little closer to Jesus if they're not already there. That's what it's about. Well if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information or to share your story you can check us out on the web. You can find us at William-pranum.org for more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation you can read and weaponize religion from Christian identity to the NAR, available in Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.