Romans 8, Manifested Sons, and Decades of End-Times Predictions

Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Browns, I'm John Collins, the author and founder of William Browns, at William-Brandom.org and with me I have my co-host, minister and friend, Cheno Ross, pastor and the voice of the understanding scripture and truth by Cheno D. Ross YouTube channel.

Cheno, this is, I will say, out of all the episodes that we've done, this is probably the most important for multiple reasons which you and I have not yet discussed. We're going to be talking about Romans 8 today and to the average Christian who's familiar with their Bible and the passages, they think, oh boy, that's Romans 8. But to the people who were impacted by the movements that you and I are talking about, they're like, oh boy, Romans 8. It carries such sinister connotations with with the way that it was framed. And there's a reason why not many

people know this and I actually did not want to share this with you beforehand because I kind of wanted to see the surprise on your face when I go here. But you can type in Romans 8 in the brand of database and search it and you can see exactly where he starts to talk about it and he talks about it from that point all the way through his entire ministry. I grew up hearing Romans 8, Romans 8, Romans 8. And if we didn't hear the phrase, we didn't hear the book and chapter number, we would hear phrases that were taken out of that passage, you know, that chapter.

So I grew up hearing it over and over, constantly drilled into my head. After leaving, I went to another church, I think I've mentioned this in the podcast, it was something simple like maybe a Christmas or a Easter message, maybe a 10, 15 minute sermon to be honest and I'm sitting here and that trigger point hit and all of the programming in my head went off like an explosion and I actually had to get up and walk out. I could not sit there. It was that bad, that intense.

And there's a reason why it's that intense. Not many people know this and I've not shared this yet on the podcast because you're the first person to talk Romans 8. But in 1949, the assemblies of God cut off Laterane and they said, we're drawing a line in the sand. Laterane is evil. And when they drew that line in the sand, it started to create schisms and divisions and the way that Brannemism framed it, he started focusing heavily on the no condemnation passages.

and talking about for those who have the faith, and then he would extrapolate that into various themes, but one of them was, well, to have the faith, you must have the mystery. And to have the mystery, we've got to go to revelations, we've got to go to all of the dreams that are mentioned in the Bible, the giant, all of these things. He goes there and he tries to piece it together where it frames it to modern events, where he's trying to suggest the Antichrist is here now, you're witnessing it now. And therefore, those who are with me are part of the elect, those who aren't,

in other words, those who took the other side of the Laterane Schism, they're the condemned ones. And with that, I'll let you kick it off. Well, you know, John, anything connected to eschatology peaks everybody's interest. And we have been looking for the last few weeks at Hobart Freeman's various and divergent views on eschatology. And eschatology, for those who don't know, it's just you know, a $20 word, a big word that just means a study of last things. So it would concern in theology, you know, anything that's going to happen at the end of the age, you know, the

rapture, the tribulation period, the millennium, the appearance of the beast, or the Antichrist, the Book of Revelation, the Battle of Armageddon, as people call it, and such things. Those are all matters of eschatology. And I think anything that, for some reason, and this is probably just human nature, but eschatology is more interesting to people than other disciplines of theology.

Doesn't mean it's more important. It's probably not as important as doctrines that concern salvation, the fall of man, the nature of God, and things like that. Those are, if you're going to rank them, maybe they should be ranked higher than eschatology, but eschatology deals with, you know, the number 666 and the beast, and how can people not be interested in things like that? So there are, and I know that this field of eschatology, there are hugely divergent views. There are various camps of people based on their belief of the timing of the rapture, whether the rapture happens prior to the

tribulation, or during it, or after it. We're kind of jumping the gun, but believe it or not, Hobart, a new somebody, here comes my cat. She's not quite into the video yet. He knew someone who, he said was a prophet. I don't know if this was Kenneth Hagen. I don't know if it was William Brannum, he didn't mention the name when it came to this particular topic, but he would say the Lord has shown one brother, there are five aspects to the rapture.

And by aspects, he really meant. He always used the word aspect, so he couldn't be accused of teaching five raptures, but when you got right down to it, that's what exactly what he was teaching, that there's a rapture of group one, then group two, then three, then four, and then five.

So that's jumping the guns, getting a little ahead of ourselves, but all of this business of the return of Christ, which is a doctrine for eschatology and of the rapture, just, it's hugely interesting to people.

The way the matter of doctrine don't seem to be the issues that attract the most YouTube views. You do something on the timing of the rapture, like this guy is a heretic because of his view on the rapture, and you'll get a lot of views.

I don't think we even got to this point in our earlier discussions about the eminency that Dr. Freeman taught, that it could happen, at any moment, but there was a book that came out in the 1980s, and you probably, this was before your time, but you probably have heard of it, 88 reasons why the rapture was gonna happen in 1988, and it just, I mean, it just lit a fire, and you could tell from the title, I mean, surely that is nothing but clickbait, as they say, which probably wasn't a turn back in 1988, but it's just like what advertisers would do,

but here was a man who had done all of this research, supposed to be a brilliant man, and he had come up with 88 reasons, and I don't remember this book back then, I've only heard of it and learned about it since then, because I would never, I mean, even as a teenager, I never would have followed anything like that, because it was just too convenient that there could happen to be 88 reasons why the rapture would happen in September of 1988, and you know, what are we, three or four decades removed from then, so that was obviously wrong,

and when it didn't happen, then he wrote another book that would be an 89, and then another book that would be a 93, you know, they always, but people have never learned, have they?

I mean, people will, there is a, I think he's a false prophet, this guy going around named Jonathan Conn, he's a Jewish, Messianic Jewish prophet, he's always dressed in black, he's on TBN, the interviews a lot, and he's always talking about just really mystical prophetic, things and it always has to do with the Antichrist and the throne of Satan and the mark of the beast, and he's got thousands of people that follow that. So eschatology does matter. I'm not saying that it doesn't matter. Eschatology does matter. Your view of the rapture, your view of the millennium,

your views on these things do matter, but I just don't know that they matter as much as some of the weightier matters that people really aren't that concerned about. Here's the thing to understand.

The names keep changing, but notice what doesn't change. Every generation discovers some scripture that was secretly describing them and they say, this is it, this is us. And then they point to whatever is their conflict and they say, that's it. See, Satan's rising. And everybody who's involved in that conflict, they start to feel familiar with it because it's affecting them. And what's odd about this is if you think of Christianity worldwide, often that conflict doesn't impact Christians and other nations. So they're like, well, why do we care if this is happening in America or whatever

country that this happens in? But that's the way it works because as humans, we like to see a conflict. Think of a movie, watch a go pay for a ticket and watch a movie where you've got this thriller and there's no conflict in it. It doesn't, you can't even call it a thriller because it's not, it doesn't contain a single thrill. You have to have the good versus evil, the good and bad, and all of this. Well, that's what they try to push as Christianity, but it's really rebranding entertainment as Christianity when you do that. And that's what was happening here. So you mentioned

the five raptures. There are people who try to study what you and I talk about in some of my other hosts and say, well, doctrinally, this is impossible. This guy didn't learn from this other guy because he taught doctrine A and the other guy taught doctrine B, but it's all the same framework.

They're looking, they're looking for actual theology, but many of these people really didn't have theology. They had entertainment. Brandham taught the five dimensions, which is slightly different than Hobart's five raptures, but he taught five dimensions. And me sitting there as a kid, hearing Romans 8, hearing Nebuchadnezzar's dream, all of these things that you're talking about, I was trying to piece together, okay, well, what are the other dimensions? What do they look like?

And in my head, I actually have a sci-fi movie playing out in service in the church because they're pitching to me entertainment, but they're using Bible verses. And so I'm connecting that entertainment with the Bible and what I grew up with was actually entertainment. It wasn't the gospel at all, but after I left, I realized, you know, if this were a movie, I wouldn't even pay for a ticket to this. It wasn't that good of entertainment. Well, you know, and I would always argue that eschatology does matter, but I think what we have learned.

is even though eschatology does matter your views about these things, I think every single cult group, even if it's a conservative Christian cult type group, every one of these cult groups, they have their nuanced, narrow, aberrant view, you know, that is non-orthodox, and that's what makes it so attractive to the followers. If they just call it a traditional pre-tribulation rapture or post-tribulation, whichever you want to pick, that all of God's children who belong to Christ, they're all going to be raptured. None of them do that. None of these cult splinter groups do that. They have to isolate, they have to separate their group and the people that agree with

them, the elite people, you know, the overcomers, the man-child, however you want to name them, whatever you want to name them, they have to separate them from just the mass of regular Christians and Christianity, and when they do that, then it does become very attractive for their followers. So we're going to start out early in our interview today, playing a little small clip from Dr. Freeman's teaching in the Book of Revelation. He had an 11 tape series, if I remember correctly, he had 11 tape series on the Book of Revelation. He taught this in a home

setting, so it was in a woman's basement or her living room, and we're going to play a little clip from chapter 13, his teaching on Revelation 13, and so for the people that don't know, Revelation 13 is a chapter that introduces us to the two beasts, the beast that arises from the sea, and the beast that arises from the earth. And their later named, at least the second one is later named in the book in chapters 16 and 20, or 16 and 19 as the false prophet. So you have on your hands here probably the Antichrist and the false prophet. So that is, you know, a fabulously

interesting desirable chapter in Revelation for people who camp out in eschatology, and that chapter ends with, you know, the most interesting reference and the most cryptic reference of all, and that is this reference to the number of that beast. And of course, we're not getting into an interpretation of that at all, but what I, what is fascinating is to take yourself back to 1970. This is when Hobart taught this message. This is long before the days of personal computers. I mean, everyone had, long before the days of cell phones, everyone had a street address, and they had a telephone number.

And you had a Social Security number and there weren't that many people I mean how many people even lived in the United States in 1970 versus you know We're almost 60 years later now versus the number the population of the United States today But we're gonna listen to this clip and then we'll we can talk about it John But it is from the 54 minute 22nd March is very short It's only 45 seconds to the 55 minute and 47 second mark Now he causes all of us great and smart. We're told here to receive a mark

So you need to buy or sell I Don't know what the mark is no one else does But it doesn't have to be anything complicated to bear to be your Social Security number That you notice how gradually maybe you don't notice I'll tell you that everything is not being reduced to your Social Security The time can come When this this can be the mark you have to take that you can either buy or sell without it and The charts will have to be made that those are the follow-up of the Christ will always have to give the number and show it

It could be written out in a sense before you're out in the hand Literally you There's no problem with that it can be and Gotably marked upon you like tattooed me either take the mark because without your Social Security number right now you can't do a lot of things You know that And so it's a very simple process to buy everything if you have low cross There's a bet not your Social Security number and your driver's license is now your Social Security number and everything is coming down to your Social Security number They're not going to have a thousand numbers like they've got now even your telephone number will probably eventually be your Social Security number

So you'll be number your number It's taking this mark in this number and of course like you can't do some things now without giving that number already You're already seeing how easy it is to bring this into Forefocus on antichrist so This should put a smile on people's face having just heard that Hobart's talking about people's Social Security numbers and Because people didn't have many numbers, you know back then you did like I said you had a street address a front phone number You had an SS number you didn't have Passwords and codes to all of these different apps and cell phones and the things that we have today are so

Incredibly complicated so you have to put yourself back in the pre-computer Pre-cell phone days so a Social Security number that's like that's really secret That's a big time number and what Hobart says We if you we just heard that clip he will first of all say I'm not saying that the mark of the beast is your Social Security number And then he went right on to say that that mark of the beast is probably your Social Security number and then he goes on I'm to say that your telephone number, and he says, you know, so security number,

that's important, that's an important number. And he goes on to say that your telephone number is probably gonna become your social security number. And your driver's license is also probably gonna become your social security number.

And I'm thinking like, what? No, your phone number is never gonna become your social security number. Your phone number was in your house. It was a landline shared by everybody in the house, all of whom had different social security numbers, but he has this weird, you know, John, this mystical view, like six, six, six, I can't quite figure that out what that is, but I know it is cryptic, I know it's mysterious, I know it's deep and dark and esoteric, and we all wanna know what it is.

And so, you know, that number six, six, six is three digits. It's not the nine digits of your social security number, but he somehow, I think, was wanting to be on, maybe the cutting edge of the true interpretation.

Now, I think later in his life, he probably would have, you know, poo-pooed what he said on his tape, but he never did go back, he never did take it back. And it is, it is, it is just so odd to think of that within the time context when Dr. Freeman was teaching that, because that would have been the most important number in your life, and it would have been a somewhat hidden secret number.

You don't give that number out to everyone else, but how possibly could your telephone number and your driver's license number and the mark of the beast all become your social security number because we all have a different one.

And yet that number in Revelation 13 appears to be, you know, we're not going down the path of trying to interpret that, but appears to be the same number for everyone. So, what an interesting historical tidbit for Dr. Freeman.

We've had conversations and you are familiar with how the mind works when people have mental health issues. We've had offline discussions because I have family members that have issues and I've studied it quite a bit.

That's why I'm fascinated with psychology. There is a problem that exists with people who develop narcissistic personality disorder where they become the hero and there must be a villain. And that theme, if you look across the different variants of mental health issues, that theme resides in a few of those different mental health issues and disorders.

But most of these ministers, whenever they go down this pathway, they start to develop narcissistic tendencies. It's not that they're narcissistic. the system, I'm not going to psychologically brand them, but they get the tendencies because if you are going to tell the people that you have the answer, you are the Superman for the elect, well, there has to be a villain and you as Superman, you have to know who that is.

So you start throwing out names and numbers and here's the interesting part. I have worn many, many hats in my years of IT. One of them was database administration. I managed the databases for hundreds of hospitals and doctors offices and had to go through all of their details and tried to make them all match out so that the software worked.

Picture this. Your name is Chino Ross, I don't know your middle name, but say it's Alfred, Chino Alfred Ross. I missed it apparently. Well, how many Chino Alfred Rosses are there out there? I'm John Collins, I have a common name, I already know that there are several John Collins is in this area.

There's some who even have my middle name, you have to have what's called a unique identifier. And so people have determined that even that is not, you can't just use a number because eventually you're going to run out of numbers so they create what's called a global unique identifier.

And you have different ways to index and categorize people. The problem is, whenever these people started to do this, they were writing on the fringes of the fundamentalist movement where it was very, very popular and the audience loved it if you condemned something that involved change.

So they introduced the social security number, instantly that's the mark of the beast because now we have a number. But to the people who are managing that database, it was a database even before electronics, they had to have a unique way of identifying the people.

Otherwise, it just simply doesn't work. But they wrote on that, they went to the telephone numbers, what's really funny, Hobart Freeman himself and others who believe that nonsense about now you've got this telephone number, they completely overlook the days like in Andy Griffith, whatever they would call the operator and they had a different indexing system back then.

And they realized that indexing system was not large enough. So they had to redo the indexing system. So was that the mark of the beast, I don't know. But what it is, they try to find the enemy and say that they alone have the insight and that will match all of these passages that are talking about the antichrist that is to come.

And if you take that branding, you're out of the elect. And we know how so many people in the past, if they happen to have been a part of an evangelical church and they move from one house to another and their new street address, just happen to be six, six, six West Main Street that they couldn't handle that, they just couldn't handle that.

Even though the passage in God's Word clearly says it will not be on your mailbox, it will be on your mailbox. your forehead or the back of your hand. So you don't have to worry about what is on your mailbox.

But people, that's why this whole field of eschatology is so fascinating. People just have all of these built-in fears and phobias. And Dr. Freeman Hobart definitely came from a, what is known as a pre-millennial background, another $20 word that just has reference to any type of millennial, either pre-post or omelennial, simply has reference to when you believe a Christ will return with respect to the millennium. So if you see, for instance, a book of Revelation as being more or less written in chronological order, even though there is definitely recapitulation in that book, if you understand it to be in chronological order, then you would see chapter 19 in the events

it records coming before chapter 20. And chapter 19 is the overthrow of Jesus' enemies and chapter 20 as the establishment of the millennium. So Hobart was definitely a pre-millennial and to more to the point, a dispensational pre-millennial. And so some of the views that would be characteristic of Dr. Freeman and pre-millennialism would be, they would see that the world is going to continue to get more evil. It's not going to get better and it's not going to stay static. It's going to continue to grow worse. Satan's influence will spread. Population will grow and the number of

unbelievers will grow. And it's often referred to as a pessimistic view of the end times. I don't think any pre-millennialists would say that it's pessimistic. They would say it's realistic that Paul and, for instance, in 2 Timothy 3 said in the last days, perilous times will come and men will be lovers of their own selves and covetous and boasters and proud and disobedient to parents and all of that list that Paul gives us here. But what was so interesting, John, about Hobart's pre-millennialism and I happen to be pre-millennial myself. But what was interesting about his pre-millennialism

is he has this small element of post-millennialism in it. There is a strange twist at the end of his millennial view. And so what post-millennialists believe, post-mill people, is that the world would continue to get better, not worse. I mean, diametrically opposed to pre-mill eschatology. You've got two different belief systems entirely. The post-mill people felt that through the spread of the gospel and the influence of the gospel and the influence of the gospel and the influence of the gospel.

of Christianity that nations would turn to Christ, that leaders would turn to Christianity and that the world would get better. Hobart completely rejected that. Let me be clear. You know, he was definitely pretty millennial. But he held Roon for this small element of the church, namely himself and his group of overcomers, to get better and better and go out with a bang and help this brings us to Romans 8, help bring about the restoration of all things. So he in his theology, even though he was pre-millennial, he had Roon for an elite group of special people

who had a special anointing, who had special gifting, and they would help write the world. You know, the world that's turned upside down, they would help make everything good and write again. And he based that on a very, very weird interpretation of Romans 8. And I'm specifically referring to say, I'm looking in my Bible, John Romans 8 verse 17 through, I don't know, verse 22, something like that, where there's no doubt about it. We do have the phrase, the manifestation of the sons of God. So when I, when I first heard that, you know, I've often

thought back how I process these things in my early Christianity. I will have to confess it was new to me. I had not heard that phrase, manifested sons with the manifestation of the sons of God, or you know, the other catch phrases in that chapter. You said, you know, they're catch phrases like this groaning creation that's going to be delivered from the bondage of corruption. Those are, those are words that are that Paul actually wrote in Romans 8. But those become the catch phrases that the whole theology is built on. I was a new Christian, you know, not only been a Christian

for a couple of years when I first heard Dr. Freeman. So I'm sure I had read my whole Bible through from cover to cover at least once, maybe twice. But I didn't know the Bible then, like I know it now 50 years later. So when I hear phrases now, I can almost tell you around where that is in the Bible, just because I'm so much more familiar with it. So this phrase manifested sons are the manifestation of the sons of God or delivering this groaning creation.

That was all new to me. I had not heard those phrases in the circles in which I traveled. You know, as I said, I barely knew my Bible. I'm sure I had read And the whole book of Romans, I'm sure I had read all of Romans 8, probably two or three times by the time I was 17 years old, but hearing that phrase was and hearing it in the context that Dr. Freeman taught it.

I mean, it's a biblical phrase. We don't have to shy away from talking about the manifestation of the sons of God because Paul clearly teaches that, but he does not teach Hobart's view of that.

Hobart's view of that was so different and out there and unusual, and we're going to get into that as we progress here this morning, John, with his view of it was versus what Paul's view of it was.

And you know, I don't, it wasn't, it did not become a huge part of my theology like other parts of his teaching did. Although I did believe it, I did accept Dr. Freeman's interpretation, but I do know that one of the things that did bother me was the chapter didn't say that God's sons would be manifested in exactly the same way Hobart did.

But of course, when you're young, you just say, well, obviously I'm just not very smart. The reason I can't see it the way he's saying it is because he's a lot older and he studied his Bible a lot more than I have.

And so I'm sure with more study, I will be able to see it the way he sees it. And I never really did, but it didn't let it bother me, as I said, because this business of the manifestation of the sons of God or the manifested sons of God was not, it just wasn't real germane to my Christian living.

I was very interested in Bible study and all of Bible study. I wasn't just hung up on a couple of doctrines. You could have told me we're going to study First Chronicles. And if you were a good teacher and could explain some things to me in First Chronicles that I did not know or understand, I would have signed up for the class.

I was really just interested in learning my Bible, which probably helped me just not get hung up on that particular phrase in doctrine. Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism, transition through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new Apostolic Reformation?

You can learn this and more on William Brannum Historical Research's website, William-Brannum.org. On the book's page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon and others, with links to the paper, audio and digital versions of each book. You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top. And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching. On behalf of William Brannem

Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support. I had this conversation just yesterday with Bob Scott, and I fully intend to have the same conversation with multiple people to get multiple views, and some people won't touch it with a 10-foot pole, and that's okay. I'll let them skip. You might do it, I don't know. But we had a conversation on the historical biblical precedent for false gods, because it's going to tie exactly to what we're talking about here, and where Hobart Freeman and William Brannem all these guys went with this. Historically speaking, and I'm not talking theology at all, just simply historically in the Bible, if you look

at the Hebrew words that are used, and I use the inner linear Bible, anybody can do this on Biblegateway.com or whatever. There's a period of time early in the Bible, early in the Old Testament, when they believed in a divine counsel, and it says, God, since basically Elohim sits in the counsel of El, and so the biblical version of what the Hebrews believed was very similar to some of the other ancient cultures. Later on, they came to realize that wait a minute, these people are praying to these false gods, and they're powerless, they're doing nothing, to the extent that, I think it's Isaiah, he mocks them openly, and says,

you just watch this guy cut the tree down and make an idol with it, and you can tell that he made it, it's not a God, it has powerless, and it goes on and on to over time, they come to realize that there's only one God, Yahweh, and everybody else who says they have a God, they don't, they're believing in a false thing, and we need to come to the realization of this. The interesting thing, because it ties back to Romans 8, what the laterane movement tried to do, was they tried to re-empower the false gods. There's this weird statistic,

I don't know if you've looked up this or not, but the majority of Christians, if you ask them, are there any other gods besides the Christian God? The majority of Christians will say no, they'll say there is no other God, God is the only God. But in the Pentecostal Charismatic Movement, you'll find, especially among the fringe groups, they do believe in false gods, the false gods have power, and you might accidentally get sucked in by one of them. So they have actually re-empowered these false gods, and that was done away with years before Christ even came to the earth. So it's a very interesting conversation,

I do want to have with multiple people, but where it comes into play specifically is the manifested sons of God. What these guys did, they love to take the King James English and use words that the average person of that era did not use, such as manifestation.

If you were to go into a church, any church, I don't care if it's Pentecostal or not, Were you saved and are you a child of God? The vast majority raised their hand, and then they will say, do you remember the day when you stood up and you made a visible outward expression of this? And they'll say, yes.

Did the church recognize that this was a great thing? Yes. Well, what they don't understand is that is a manifested son of God, the son and daughter of God. Because it didn't say sons and daughters of God, manifested sons and daughters, manifestation, the definition, actually, I'm reading it right here, an outward or visible expression of something abstract, the practice of focusing thoughts, visualization, positive thinking, to bring the goal into reality. So you were saved, you brought yourself as a Christian, you manifested yourself before the congregation through baptism, whatever was your event. And then suddenly, now you're a son and daughter

of God, you fulfilled the passage, right? You can take that same thought, and you can apply it to the passages about the false gods in the 10 commandments. It says, you should have no other God before me. It doesn't mean that the other God even exists. It says, you're not going to have the other God before me. And you can clearly read later in the old testament and throughout the New Testament, there are no other gods.

So if you take that line of thinking and try to visualize a person who is narcissistic enough to say, I'm going to tell the people that there are false gods, I'm the hero who can help them conquer those false gods.

They might accidentally catch a false god if they don't stick with what I say and ignore everybody else. They're empowering the evil for the purposes of lifting themself up. And when I realize this, my whole world changed, I began to realize that I don't have to fear these things. Man, it's already all done. I can look to the things that it gives me comfort in and ignore all of the things that they tried to scare me with.

Well, definitely every time he went to Romans 8 and the manifestation of the sons of God passage, it was always in, you know, an end time cryptic context. It was always in the context of, you know, the end is upon us.

The end is here. We've talked about this in some earlier podcast. You mentioned earlier in this discussion, John, Nebuchadnezzar stream. I just happened to have a quote we want to play from Dr. Freeman's teaching on Daniel chapter two. This also was done in 1970. So again, we're almost 60 years ago. The last few weeks, if people remember, we have talked about Hobart's views on Israel, Israel became a nation in 1948. And by the way, speaking of 1948, that's why the guy came up with 1988 as the date of the rapture because it's a 40 year

generation. So, you know, 40 years, you know, this generation will not pass away until everything's been fulfilled. That's why he selected 1988. Then when Hobart saw Israel, the Jewish people get most of their capital city back in the six-day war in June of 1967.

You know, then he's just, I mean, he is just, he's living in that moment. He had only entered the charismatic movement a year prior in 1966. So when the Jewish people get Jerusalem back in 1967, and then for the next couple of years after that, I mean, he is riding hot and heavy.

Luke 21, 24 said whenever that happens, times of the Gentiles are over. Lift your eyes and look up because your redemption draws nigh. And so along with his teaching came this incredible sense of urgency. You don't have very much time left.

So this is a great example of that from a message entitled, Nebuchadnezzar's Dream, the Book of Daniel, chapter 2, done in 1970, from 8 minutes and 36 seconds to 9 minutes and 20 seconds.

Three years ago now, you saw for the first time in 19 centuries that prophecy fulfilled. The times of the Gentiles ended in 1967, friends, and we don't even know that history is now closing.

We talk like we've got 30, 40 more years and all of that. You don't have 30, 40 more years. There's ever a reason to believe you don't have any more than 70s. And we only say that. That isn't setting dates, of course.

But God has shown too many a calendar with 70 on it and things like the pages fluttering and that's all you see as you go up to about 77 or something. Now that isn't setting dates. He wants to go on up in the 80s. That's his business. But the end is here.

I think I have talked about this a little in the previous podcast without actually playing just this clip and there are others. You can find plenty of excerpts early on the late 60s, early 1970s for Dr. Freeman saying, this is it.

So what we just heard is he's telling these people, he's telling them the very thing Jesus said, don't, don't tell people this is the time. He's telling them he said, we don't have 30 or 40 years left. I'm kind of reading and paraphrasing because I have this quote written out.

He said, there's every reason to believe you don't have any more than the 70s. Pretty easy to say in 1970 because you got all the way to 79 to be proven wrong or right. And we only say that and then he interrupts himself. That's not setting dates, of course, but God has shown too many a calendar with 70 on it and things like the pages fluttering and that's all you see. You go up to about 77 and that's it. And that isn't setting dates. Well, if that's not setting dates and what is that doing? He said that's not

setting dates. If he wants to go up into the 80s, that's his business, but the end is here. So you're sitting in someone's basement in 1970 hearing, you know, he's first of all giving you his interpretation of what happened in the six day war, which he does in the first six and seven, six or seven minutes of this, by the way, of this same message if people want to go and listen to it. He's he's telling them the Jews have their capital city back the times of the Gentiles. When are they going to end? Well, they ended. He said they ended about two years ago. And then he said

three years ago, this is 1970 isn't. That's how you know the date of a lot of these messages. He will tell you the date. So he is so that is so fresh to him, John. He's so excited about that.

He knows it's the end. He just received the baptism in the Holy Spirit. You know, everything is going downhill from here on out. And can you imagine sitting in that group of those people listening to this former seminary professor tell you that many people have seen a calendar of the 1970s and the pages are fluttering, becoming less and less visible. And they only go up to about 1977. I first heard Dr. Freeman in 1976. So I first hear this message in late 1976. And you know, what am I thinking? But you know, and I'm still in high school and my parents are insistent that I

go to college. And I was not going to go to college because that's just a waste of time. Why go to college? Jesus is coming back. Thankfully, I did go to college and did get an undergraduate degree at the University of Mississippi where my parents went to school. And by the way, John, my middle name is Delie, not Alfred. It's got two capital letters. It's a French name. It was my mother's maiden name. So I have an unusual name, Chenot, Delie, Ross, not John Collins. I have an unusual one.

So you don't have to give me a special identifier or number, you know, I'm probably the only Chenot, Delie, Ross, that's in the world living today. So he was very scary for me, scary, but exciting to hear that. I'll...

have a year or two and the second advent will happen. And so when he goes to Romans chapter eight, he's going there with this idea in mind. And so it was all about preparation, John.

You know, that's the big roll call. Hobart was best known for, he became best known for his faith teaching. And then more specifically, his anti doctor, anti medicine, lived I sink or swim, you must trust him and hundreds of people took him up on that and died. And he took himself up on that and died as well. He became best known and best remembered for his faith teaching and for his anti medicine and anti medical science teaching. But his whole goal, the goal of that teaching, the goal of his faith teaching, the goal of his what he called the crucified life. And the

deeper life and all of this, the goal of all of that was to get prepared so that you could be a part of the manifestation of the sons of God. So even though faith, healing, prayer, intercession, gifts of the spirit, deliverance, you know, all of that, all of that was important. All of that was just foundational to get yourself, according to Dr. Freeman's theology to get yourself in the position where you could be ready for Romans chapter eight. So it's like Romans eight. And you know, he would go a few years and say, you know, I know some of you're asking, when is all of this

going to happen? In other words, when is this Romans eight, the manifestation of the sons of God going to happen? You know, some people were probably, their patience was wearing thin. We've heard enough faith. We've heard enough gifts of the Holy Spirit when, when is the big bang going to really happen? It's like it was a carrot on a stick, John, that you just dangle. I mean, here we are 50 years later. It hasn't happened yet, not in the way they said it was going to happen. So it's like a carrot on a stick. It's like, when I was a child, I was born in Memphis and raised in south

Memphis, not very far from Graceland. We used to go sit on Elvis's front porch as kids and get our pictures taken because that Elvis wasn't a big deal. He wasn't as big a deal in the 60s as he became post 77 when he died. But I was born and raised in Memphis and we didn't have, we didn't have horse racing like we have here in Kentucky. But if you would go across the bridge from Memphis to what is known as West Memphis, that's actually not in Tennessee, that is in Arkansas, across the Mississippi River, there was a dog track. My parents were not gambling people. We didn't

have enough money to gamble anyway. They never went to the dog track. But we knew people who would, they'd say, We went to the track and they meant the dog track and those were greyhounds and they would chase after this little bunny rabbit that would pop up on the course and run and would always for some reason outrun those greyhound dogs.

Those greyhounds could really get up and fly and when they thought they were getting close to the rabbit, you know, the mechanical rabbit who ever is operating him would just goosey him a little and he would just take off a little faster.

That's what this whole business of waiting for the manifestation of the sons of God has been. It's dangling that carrot, putting that rabbit out in front of all of these greyhounds in these churches and so you've got people today who are still freemenites, freemen followers, still waiting for, you know, the carrot on the stick and the rabbit in front of the greyhounds, still waiting for Romans 8 to happen in their life.

They say the definition of insanity is to try to continue doing the same thing over and over again and expect a different result. If people understood that that's what this movement was doing from its inception, I mean you go back to the early days of Pentecostalism, right at the Azusa Street Revival, they were saying the same things.

You can actually, even in the newspapers, you can find some quotes of their sermons. I thought the world was going to end right there in 1907, 1908. Well, when Brandham talked about Nebuchadnezzar's dream, at that time the big fear was the communist scare, Russia, and he says, this Nebuchadnezzar's dream, no, I have the secret.

You guys listen, he said, Eisenhower means iron and Khrushchev means clay. I grew up years later after Brandham's dead, hearing sermons about how Eisenhower meant iron. As if that mattered to me in the slightest, the pastor is actually just parading in, like a broken record, what Brandham had said, not knowing that Brandham himself later changed it to, instead of Khrushchev, it was Rome.

He basically just redirected what it was because he had to have the answer of who the anti-Christ was going to be and how all this would play out. The funny part about all of that is, Khrushchev doesn't actually mean clay, nor does iron.

Eisenhower, Khrushchev, if I remember right, it means some kind of a dung beetle or something like this. Khrushchev was dead and gone, so why are they still preaching about it today in 2026? They're preaching the iron and clay, Khrushchev.

It just doesn't make sense. It shows you that there's something wrong. The people, they hear these things and they believe them, but they shut off all critical thinking, and so they get stuck like a zombie in this world that they can never escape from.

It's really, really sad when the cult leader dies, like Brandham, like Hobart Freeman, because those who are still stuck in that zombie mode, they really struggle to get out of it, and they're saying things that everybody around them, like if I were to say this at work, people would laugh at me, do you not know that...

Prushoff died years ago? Do you not know the Iron Curtain came down? All of this stuff? Yes, Russia is a problem today, but it's a different problem than the one that was given in the prophecies.

That's the point I'm trying to make. And they're stuck like zombies, and I can say this with absolute fact because I was stuck like a zombie in this. And people just need to snap out of it and wake up and realize that you have to engage critical thinking or you will believe something until you die that could be completely false and worse than that, not only ruin your life and others, lead people to their deaths like you're talking about with Hobart Freeman.

And John, I never heard that about Eisenhower and Krushchev, but it's interesting how just the pronunciation of a word if it is in any way similar to something in the King James Bible. And I guess he's thinking Eisenhower like the Eisen Iron, you know, the feet are made of part iron, hyzer and clay, Krushchev clay, something like that.

It reminds me of Hobart was, he didn't ever said that, but he was the same with Gog and Magog and Meshach and Tubal in Ezekiel chapter 28 because Meshach, you could see in that, maybe Meshach is Moscow.

And Tubal is Tubalisk, another, you know, Soviet Union, Russian city, but good grief, you know. The Old Testament is written in Hebrew. Now we have this in King James, Elizabeth in English. It doesn't mean that there's any connection because there may be to our ears between Meshach and Moscow, there really isn't.

They just both start with an Elm and the same with Tubal and Tubalisk and the same with Eisenhower and Iron because there's some similarity, we hear it in our, doesn't mean there's any connection at all, but these guys were expert at pulling these things out.

Well, and the funny part about it is, if I remember correctly, and this is something I studied years ago, you have to go look it up, but if I remember correctly, Eisenhower actually did come from that root, but if you think of how things would have played out back then, Eisenhower, whenever he was president, they're likely with something published that said his name means iron and the people could easily see that and they wouldn't critically think and say, well, this crush off really mean clay.

In other words, part of it's true and half truth doesn't make a whole truth. That's the real point here. And like you said, they're throwing out names if they can make it sound similar to a Bible phrase or some thing spiritual in the Bible, they'll do it because people won't critically think to see, is that really accurate or did he just pull it straight out of his butt?

Well, we're getting close. on our time, John. So I do want to play one other kind of for boating clip where Hobart's goals the people in the church is an easy clip to hear because he begins a message with this.

But he's teaching a series in the Book of Romans. This was done in 1976. And he just had a lot of different messages that had to do something with getting ready for preparation. I just grabbed his tape list.

So here are a few titles. Here's one called Living in Two Ages at Once. Here are two tapes called Preparation for Restoration. Here's one called Prophecy Concerning Restoration. Here are two called Preparation for Manifestation.

Here's one called Evidences of Preparation for Manifestation. I mean, he was just going to work you up in getting you ready for whatever this manifestation of the sons of God was all about. And so here in this one entitled Preparation for Manifestation, part one, Romans chapter eight, actually visited the glory bar in a couple of months.

For the first time, a couple of months after this message was given. So I barely missed this message. But from the very beginning of, when he soon as he stands up to preach, to about the two minute and 50-second timestamp.

Praise the Lord. Turn to the eighth chapter of the Book of Romans this morning for our studies in the book. I won't say while you're turning there, God said, let everything be confirmed in the mouth of two or three witnesses.

We have his word in Romans eight for the message that God is maturing his people, those who were submit to it, and that's his maturred sons. I'm going to preach on it. That's two witnesses.

And I sat in there and heard a prophecy right down the line with practical, everything, one to say. Same spirit, he spired the word, gave me the message, and spoke through our brother. But there is a stirring.

God's been dealing with me for about a month. Now, I don't know, we don't need to prove anything by raising your hand. I feel there's something about to break, something about to happen, that there's a great stirring in the heavenlies, and it's been in my spirit for over a month, especially the last week or so.

God has been dealing about us deep in my spirit as when I wondered what it was that he was dealing about when I got the baptism. Since I already knew I had that, I didn't know what it was.

So. That was in the creed and I had to get off to myself and ended up the whole church became charismatic Among other things I think he's trying to tell us that The time is very near to Manifestation maturity He can do a very quick work in you if you're letting and

Some of you and I have to say this is by the spirit who think you may be letting God set you free are yet Not yet free in attitudes and things you believe and things that you're doing

Now that will be clear as we go along But I wonder how many feel a stirring that the spirit is moving. I mean would you

Well, and I see that isn't all of you. That's about half of you So half of you are somehow not hearing what the rest of us are hearing I mean everyone who did not raise his hand Just may be on the verge of missing God Because it isn't just happening as I said to me. It's in the word I'm going to bring some deeper things forth this morning That will really separate between the men and the boys and those who are going to be overcomers and those who are not then we had this Prophetic confirmation as I say right down the line to what I'm going to preach today

Again, just to show everyone how he's Aging people on and urging people towards urgency When he stands up to preach he says that There's been a great stirring in his spirit for the last month That something big is getting ready to happen and then he asked for a show of hand So he's this is right in the middle of their time where they are in the glory barn This is the summer definitely the summer of 1976 and he asked for a show of hands of People out there in the congregation and I can't remember the

Attendance at that time. I'm going to say probably five or six hundred people and attendance in the glory barn Some people upstairs some people downstairs some people having to sit outside listening on loudspeakers There's a good group of people there and he's asking for a show of hands Of the people who sense that saying Over the past months stirring in their spirit. He's getting ready to teach on Romans 8 and the manifestation of the sons of God And about half of the people race their hand And he goes on to scold the rest of them telling them that they are on the verge of missing God

Because the time of our manifestation is almost here It was almost here 50 years ago You know it's so easy to do these podcasts in light of 50 years of the passage of time where none of these things ever came to pass.

Jesus did not return in 1988. He did not manifest his sons in some global way as Hobart was teaching in 1976. We're in 2026. You know, so the people, the half of the people that raised their hands, did they really experience the same stirring that he said he had the previous month?

I'm sure there are people listening to these podcasts or people at least alive today who were there when he said this. Why did they lift their hands? Had they experienced some stirring in their heart?

Or do you just want to definitely be on the same side as your leader since he's had a stirring? Oh, yes, Lord, I've had a stirring. I want to be a part of that stirring.

What about the other 50%, the other 300 or 350 people that did not raise their hands? They got scolded, but guess what? They were the ones who were right because nothing did happen. And they probably felt terrible that they did not raise their hands.

You know, we didn't get as far as I thought we might with our, imagine that, study of Romans eight. But I would just encourage people to go home and read it for themselves, those verses, you know, 18 to 22.

It does mention the manifestation of the sons of God. It does seem like it is going to happen in some type of fairly big context where it does appear that it happens, you know, kind of like John in first John chapter three, I think he references this without using that terminology where he says along this line, it does not appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears, we will be like him for we'll see him as he is.

John seems to say, what we're going to look like, what we're going to be like, we haven't experienced that yet, but we will at the second advent. And that seems to be what Paul is saying in first Cecilonia's four, whenever the Lord returns, he's going to resurrect the dead saints, he's going to change their bodies, going to change the bodies of the living saints, and we're all going to be caught up together to him.

And then something else will happen after that. What Hobart interpreted Romans 8 to say is not so much that God's sons are going to be manifested in this creation, this groaning creation is going to be delivered, but that we are the ones who are going to deliver it.

And this is where we'll get into next week. I think God's sons will be manifested and I think the groaning creation will be delivered from its bondage of corruption. what Paul is talking about in Romans 8, but what I never could find, John, in that passage is us identified as the ones who were going to do the delivering. I think the rest of the Bible in a normal reading would probably assume God is going to do that himself, that no human beings, no group of special human beings have the capability or will be in the capacity to deliver this

groaning creation, but that's what Hobart taught. And how we're going to go about doing that, we'll get into next time. I think I'll end it like a pastor once said, a pastor who oddly enough was critically thinking who had probably unraveled this whole thing in his head. He stood there one day and I was listening and he said, all of these things that were predicted, they did not happen.

And that means brothers and sisters, we're living on borrowed time. And I'm certain, if you're in Hobart Freeman's camp, they're saying something similar to that. We're living on borrowed time because they should have happened and they didn't happen. Well, I'm here to tell you that borrowed time thought can last for the rest of your life if you'll let it. And Chino and I are here to help you not live on that borrowed time and live on real time and have a real life and move beyond these things. Thank you so much for doing this. Yeah, thanks for having me, John.

Well, you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at William-Brandom.org. From more about the dark side of the new apostolic reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.