Spiritual Grooming and the Road to Freedom

Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at William-branham.org, and with may I have my co-host and friend, Christian Arcy, former charismatic and Latin America. Christian is good to be back and to dive deeper into all of the problems related to these so-called deliverance ministries. I have come to call it stage deliverance because what they're doing, it's not biblical deliverance, usually deliverance is deliverance from sin or from evil, but what they're doing is stage deliverance and there's quite a difference, but want to dive

deeper with you on this and you've sent me this great list of all of the many issues that can come from this. I don't think we'll even get through a third of these to be honest, and each one, like when I got this list from you, I was thinking the first subject is fear of asking honest questions. I'm thinking that's a whole podcast, you know, and maybe we will, but anyway, it's good to have you back and let's go through your list. It's interesting because I was as I was doing the list, I was going down memory lane and realizing that those

that least those subjects either came from personal experiences or watching somebody else going through. So that's a really, really interesting thing. It kind of gives you a really good perspective on how real those things are. It's not that we're making the list out of the blue. And that maybe the most important one here is this spiritual grooming related to fear to fear of asking honest questions. And I'm pretty sure you've been there a lot of times.

What happens when you want to ask something, but in the back of your head, there's this feeling of fear of asking. If you are in a healthy leadership relationship, you shouldn't have any fear whatsoever. So a good warning sign of spiritual grooming is, do I have fear of asking honest questions? Anything could be anything. I mean, related to financial information or related to spiritual guidance or whatever subject it is.

you shouldn't be afraid of asking anything to anyone on your local congregation or organization. Exactly. And, you know, I was thinking as I was reading through this list earlier today, some of these things really are for people who are stuck in limbo. I've mentioned this a few times and I want to say it was like five times in five podcasts that I've recorded in the last two weeks, but there was this time period in which you had the Cold War, you had, the government was actually working with the full gospel businessman and others to try to instill fear into the hearts of

the people that we're in the battle of the minds and you must fight this battle with us, the pentagon, et cetera, was really coming together trying to spread this theme throughout the United States.

Well, the this movement just ran with it and they ran rampant with it. That's really the problem here and coming from people like the speech that I have on the website is from Richard Nixon of all people. It's just a horrible, horrible thing. So they brought the people into this level of fear that Doomsday is coming, prepare your battle, prepare the battle in the mind because the end is here and then they stayed static and continued to be static. And I was using the example from a show that you probably haven't seen, but there was this comedy show where the Civil War people fighting

in the Civil War did not know the World War had ended and so they're still fighting the battles. And this is, you know, it was a comedy show. It was kind of funny to think through that, but it's sad when you think that this happened in many cases in religion because they're still fighting this battle in their mind and they're stuck in limbo and they will continue to fight it until somebody shakes them and wakes them up and say, look, we need to move past this. It's time to move past this. Yes, I totally remember a really interesting story about a person that was isolated from the

entire army in the middle of the jungle living there for many years after the war ended

and believing that he was still at war. So yeah, even though are totally different moments in time and of course it's not that TV show, I totally get it. Now, I'm going to ask you a question that I would love to have your opinion because I think it's happening here in Costa Rica but as well as everywhere else in the world. What are your thoughts on punishing discernment? And what I mean by that is sometimes if it happens that you have like one direction and you've been praying and you've been trying to find the will of God for something

specific and all of a sudden your leader or your pastor or whatever it is that's in charge, what I'm quote, has a totally different direction. What are your thoughts on that? You know, it's odd because I just had this conversation yesterday with a lady and her testimony will come out much later than this one, but she was in that kind of situation and it destroyed her life. I mean, they're pure plain and simple. You can go any direction. My opinion is simply this. If you have a train that's on a train track, you know, where it's going because the track is

there, but these people who are practicing this so-called discernment and it's not even biblical discernment. Desirment is the ability to discern between good and evil, but they're saying they have this thing that is called discernment and then they use it as a weapon. We don't know what it is because it's not even biblical and they will tell you that it might be fortune telling. It might be peering into your soul. It might be and they're going through all of these things that are actually occult practices and saying that it is discernment. Well, you don't know what it is.

So it is like the train going down with no track. You don't know where you're going to end up. Yeah. And again, I mean, a really, really good example of spiritual grooming comes down to this where you're somehow punished in a very subtle way so that you end up doing not what you have out of the prayer and reading the Word of God and looking for the will of God for your life. You end up doing the complete opposite because of the relationship that you have with your leaderships.

So that's also a really big, big issue. Now, we mentioned this in the latest episode. What happens when you need permission for normal day to day adult decisions from your leadership? That's also a good sign of spiritual grooming and high control groups and unhealthy leadership that is not promoting real care. And I'm talking about really basic stuff like celebrations and trips and job schedules and everything. What happens when the thing that you value the most for taking those decisions, for making those decisions is not your own conscious or what this scripture tells you, but what somebody else tells you or the opinion of a pastor or of a leader

or the congregation in general. If you're not able to make your own decisions on normal day-to-day things. That's a good sign that maybe is a high-control group or that you have been spiritually grouped.

I agree. I had this conversation with somebody who was still trapped in that mentality and it's really hard to break people from it. But here in the United States, we have a holiday called Halloween and if you trace the history back, it's actually not that bad of a thing.

It's just talking about a celebration of the change of the seasons. But they do this thing with the kids. They go around and get the candy. I don't know if you have anything even similar to this in your country. But the thing of it is, it has turned into this thing where kids get candy and every kid wants to get the candy. That's really all it is. I got my candy when I was a kid. I did this and I'd come home with sackfuls and I pay the price at the dentist for doing this. But it quickly turned into this thing

where once people started believing that they're battling all of these invisible spirits that they can't see and everything that you do or touch as a demon, they started judging people for letting their kids do this. And somebody actually, I think it was on the podcast.

They kind of got on to me about this. It might be easier on the podcast or I think it was after the podcast. They started saying, well, you did this. That's so wrong. Think of all the evil spirits. And I always go back to Colossians too. Paul is going to the literal temples where the literal demons were. And he's telling people, don't let anybody tell you that you can't eat or drink or celebrate a new moon or Sabbath. If you understand the culture that he's talking to, he's talking literally about food that has been sacrificed

to idols in temples where they had prostitution and they had blood sacrifice and all of these just horrific, horrific things. This is not children getting candy in a bag. This is really bad stuff. But he's saying, you have the power to make this decision. If you want to go celebrate, don't let anybody tell you you can't celebrate. Now, he's also being very clear. If you read through the passage, he's being very clear, not to wander into sin. There is a difference here. But you can go celebrate with your friends. And I look at it like this whenever you're in this type of mentality where people are telling you

that there is a demon under every rock, what they're essentially doing is they're holding a whip over your head and they're saying, you have to do what I say. Yeah. And again, I mean, it's adult decisions that you have to make for yourself. Even if you believe that it's bad or it's good or it's a neutral thing that it doesn't matter, you should be able to make that decision and not feel that you have to decide whatever somebody else is telling you. That's the point that you have the ability to go in prayer and read the Bible and find out for yourself. And if somebody does not

agree with you, I mean, it's okay. Good things on opinions is that everyone can have their own. And it doesn't matter that we're going to get in a fight because you believe something and I believe something else. It just means that we believe that totally different things and it's okay. I mean, this is again, a journey of faith. You learn things as you go and it's your personal faith and it's your personal relationship with God and that's the bottom line. You should be able to make your decisions without the fear of something happening against you with the community of the levers that

you are part of. Now, there's another point that I would like to talk with you. And it's the famous phrase, don't damage the testimony of the church. And it goes to say, basically, don't say anything if something really bad goes on here, we should be able to manage this thing here. Just don't tell anyone because what's so and so going to believe about God. The thing is that they will tell you that you shouldn't say anything because the image that you're going to portray is that God is a bad person because of somebody doing bad thing. I mean, that makes no sense at all.

Absolutely. I mean, when it really comes down to it, the God that they have started to portray in the movement doesn't match the Bible at all. So in doing so, they have invented a new God and they give it all of the attributes that they want. And interestingly, the attributes aren't that good.

If you had your choice to serve what the Bible is talking about in a humble Christian setting, the God who loves you, the God who loved the entire world, so much that he gave his only son, you would want to serve the God that loves you, but they have given you the God literally the God that hates you. I started thinking about this as I was leaving. I just, whenever I left the cult that we came out of, which was the movement that sparked all of this, I get to thinking about that.

I, you know, if and a person told me this, if that's the God of the Bible, I want no part of it. That God is an evil, evil being. And I thought about that when the person told me this, and I thought, you know, it, it's true. They have invented a new God that nobody wants to serve, but they've told you, if you don't serve it, you're going to die. Yeah. And I don't know if you went through this, it's, it's what I call the correction from the pulpit. When somebody preaches a message, that is so specific that you know it is for you,

but at the same time, so generic that they can say, oh yeah, but I was not talking about you, but deep down you know it was you. And to give you a bit of a context, I had a few occasions, I would say more than a few, where I was not agreeing with how things were going and certain things either during the, you know, related to worship or related to any kind of doctrine or anything, I was very open about that, of course.

And next thing you know on Sunday morning or on Sunday afternoon, here's a sermon about that specific thing that I was saying or teaching in my groups or anything. So I knew that, or maybe even a Bible verses

in a WhatsApp chat, anything that I knew, that I knew I was 100% sure that it was about the things that I was saying or something that I said that was openly against what they were doing at the church at that time.

So that is also a warning of spiritual grooming because it's disguised sometimes as a sound teaching or somebody trying to tell you, hey, ultimately what I'm trying to do here is just teaching you and showing you the correct way.

But in doing so, the reality is that you've been, you know, like exposed publicly and that is in no way shape or form a safe leadership or a safe place for you to grow.

It's totally the opposite. I was thinking about that the other day when I was talking through, we had a conversation about just simply the fatherhood, how fatherhood works. And if you read the Bible, there are all these portrayals of God as the father and as the father loved his son, so he loves his children.

Well, that doesn't really work in a movement where the father is not a good father. And I'm saying that bluntly and jokingly, but it's actually the truth because I had the conversation whenever I raised my kids, I am one of these fathers who I just love it to watch them make a mistake because I know that they're gonna learn from that mistake.

Now, I'm watching to make sure that the mistake is not catastrophic because if it is, they might be injured, harm might come. But I love for them to try something new just to see if they can do it and see what happens and watch them make a mistake and learn.

from it, because the next time they, if they learn, they won't make the same mistake. That's a loving father. He wants to, wants to help his children grow, right? Well, they don't want this.

They want to control you so that you don't make the mistake. And then, what it would be like in these movements that do exactly what you're talking about. From behind the pulpit, they ridicule the person who has made the mistake.

Well, picture me as a father and my son does something and I call all of his friends together and I laugh, ha ha, look at, look at what my son done. He is a fool.

That's what they're doing in the church. And then think, think how this makes my son feel. He would want to abandon me as a father. But yet in the church, you don't abandon the preacher for doing this.

Instead, you just put your tail between your legs and your whipped. And I'm guilty. I did it too. When I was in the movement, you get under the such mind control that you can't break free.

But when you do, you look back and you think, why did they treat me like this? I was a grown man when I left. Why did they treat me as a grown man like this?

Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. And that leads me to the next subject here that we have. And it's the issue of the constant criticism of those who left the organization or the refusal to listen to the reason on why they left.

That's a really bad thing because the first thing that's going to happen, if you leave a high control organization, whatever it is, is that they're going to tell you, hey, this person left because he has, like, this is a values how to do it or we don't want to continue any kind of relationship with that person because he did something bad.

And he believes something different that is not vitally called or like they were doing everything in a Bible way, right? But there's this constant criticism of the person who left the organization very rarely.

And I mean, like, very rarely, they go to that person and say, or ask, hey, why did you leave? Why did you decided to part waste with the church? What happened? And the reality is that most of the time we are biased to follow the instruction of a leader that is telling us, this person's no good anymore.

And that's a really sad thing because most of the time if you go to talk to a person who left the any specific church or any congregation, they will give you a valid reason on why they did it.

And that will give you a lot of light to start developing, again, your critical thinking and start seeing. things in a different way. It's funny because every one of these topics that you've given me, I'm thinking back and just recent memory of had podcasts talking about each of them.

But I was thinking through this idea of critical thinking, they do not like this, they do not like you to critically think because when you do, yeah, their whole ministry comes apart. I mean, it's really odd when you think about it.

But I was thinking about this, they will actually preach against people who critically think because in the movement, what I had in the podcast that I recently did, we talked about William Brannum was saying that sin is unbelief.

So if you don't believe you're sinning and that was the coordination that was made, however, the problem is that spread through the ministry because nobody critically thought about what he just said. So it's spread and they're preaching it in churches today that if you don't believe anything, you're sinning.

And I stopped and thought about the child who's with his friends and the other child says something to him. And the kid says, I don't believe you show me, which is very, very common.

This is the first step in critically thinking. If you want to critically think about somebody says, you just say, I don't believe you, show me. So by that concept, by that rule, that child has sinned.

If you really think about what Brannum was saying and what these ministers are saying, what it does is teach us people, do not question anything. Do not question what I say as the pastor, do not question even what other pastors are saying because they might be in a move of God and you don't know, even this is the odd part, even if what they say is wrong, they might be in a move of God.

So don't question what they said that was wrong. And I take a step back and I say, that's the whole problem of the movement, nobody questioned anything. So it just went berserk. You remember the, I think it was the first episode we did where we talk about three different groups of people, the people that were inside those organizations that would be like die hard, you know, members of the organization, they're the convinced people, you're not going to do anything to prove them wrong.

There's a second group, the what I call the awakened people that are inside the organization starting to, you know, think critically and starting to see weird things happening within the church and they're curious about it.

And there's the second, the third group, which is the people who left the organization. Now what happened to the second group, which is the people that are inside of those organizations because the end of this podcast, I guess, and correct me if I'm wrong is helping people within those organizations to realize a lot of the things that are going wrong.

So my first advice and... And I would like to, of course, hear your opinion of this because you were part of the entire process. You leave it. You went through this. So first thing that I would pay attention to it, if I'm the awakened, the awakened group is paying attention to fear and confusion and isolation from family and friends. Because the first thing a high control group would do for you is isolate you from those people that really care. And those people that have no interest in taking something out of you, either time or money or admiration

or whatever it is, if you're being isolated, pay attention to it. When was the last time that you have contact with anyone that was not part of the organization? Are you able to go back to old friends and talk without any feeling of something wrong is going to happen because I'm talking to somebody who's not part of my organization or because they don't believe exactly what I believe. Whenever people do this, whenever they only hear from the people who agree with them, who think like them, they have isolated themselves into this mentality where they will never, ever grow, they'll never progress. One of the

freedoms that I had after leaving the group that we left, I started reading everything, whether it was a person who agreed with me or the polar opposite. And I started watching these debates. I don't know if you've seen these, but there's debates on doctrine, sometimes debates on Christianity. And often I would find that I was learning as much from the person who was polar opposite of my opinion as I was the person who agreed with my opinion. Obviously, I didn't agree with everything of the other opinion, but if we allow ourselves to learn from people, we can learn and grow and we can better ourselves. That was one of the new

freedoms that I had while I was in the movement. I was constrained to be in this box that just never, ever grew. So one of the freedoms is doing this, but also I want to mention you also must maintain your own convictions because if you're studying somebody of the different opinion, you don't want to just jump in head first. You want to very cautiously say, okay, I agree with this statement. I disagree with this other statement because it doesn't really, it doesn't fit my own convictions. If you proceed in that way, you can, you can

better yourself, you can gain more knowledge and you begin to understand everything a lot more clearly because they're all coming from different angles of different perspectives. I 100% agree with that. Seeking outside perspective makes you what I call do the homework because maybe somebody will tell you had had don't agree with that specific thing that you said. It'll make you question whether...

you're right or wrong. I mean the worst thing that can happen is that you go and read the Bible and find out if you if what you believe is right or wrong and there's no bad resolve of going and to read the Bible and trying to find out if you're good, if you're right or wrong, right?

So yeah, and it goes back to the argument of understanding that questions are not rebellion. Like you shouldn't have this idea that if you ask something, maybe a doctrine or a practice of any church, any religious organization, that's not being a values person. That just means that you're drawn to it just to find out if what you're doing is true or not because at the end of the day, we're talking about our relationship with God and eternal life. So it will have a really important consequence. So you want to do the right thing according to what God says in his word.

That's basically it. I mean, that is not a rebellious act. You should be able to just ask questions to yourself and to everyone and find out what is the way that you need to go.

Absolutely. In the end, it's all about learning to live in the world that we are currently in. One of the problems that I have with the movement is there are people who are so heavily minded that they're no earthly good. And on the flip side, there are people who are so earthly minded that they're no heavenly good. There are there is this group of people that I really enjoy being around who are both because you can learn that learn from the things that they have from their own experiences. And many times they will help you in ways that you never really thought you

could help yourself. But if you stay in this other world where you're not even living in the world, your mind is not even living in the world that we're in, suddenly you start to become a zombie.

I mean, in my opinion, you you're walking around in this earth and not really enjoying anything, not even living the life that you could be living happily. Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism, transition through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation?

You can learn this and more on William Brannum Historical Research's website, William-Brannum.org. On the book's page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon and others, with links to the paper, audio and digital versions of each book. You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top. And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching. On behalf of William

Brannum Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support. My best advice to the awakened group that might be listening to us is you can leave any religious organization without living God. That is number one thing that I would advise to anyone because I've been to situations where if there's somebody, you know, talking to me or telling me, hey, I want to leave this church.

I don't think they're doing the right thing. And my, my answer to that is, why haven't you left? You have all the rights to leave any organization. And don't think that you're living God because at the end of the day, you used harder relationship with God. God calls you in a personal way.

And a good example that I use all the time is, and what if for some reason you end up like the movie cast away in a desert island far away with nobody around you. God's going to still be there with you. I mean, it's not like he's going to leave you because you're not going to church in Sunday. You have the ability to leave any organization without living God. And it may sound silly to anyone who has never been into a high control group or any religious organization that is so coercive that it's an unthinkable thing. But it happens. It happens a

lot. I've seen it. What's funny is whenever we left the Brannum movement, I did not know that it was a high control group. And I told all of my family right before leaving. I said, I'm leaving, but I'm not leaving God or Christianity. I'm just leaving this idea that Brannum is so important in my life. That's paraphrase what I said to them. And then suddenly all hell broke loose.

I had no idea that it was going to be what it turned out to be. And my entire family, my wife was shunned from the movement just simply because she was married to me who was leaving the movement.

That's how bad this was. And I'm just one story of many. And it's not as though this is an isolated thing to what you would consider to be the extremist versions, which Brannum is an extremist compared to a lot of the charismatic mania. But even in the groups that you would consider not to be so extreme, they do the same thing without even realizing that they're doing it. And so you have people, you can listen to their stories almost every Friday, people who get completely shut off from the people that they knew, thinking that they're, you know, they're just going to change church, they might

go to a denomination and they thought that they weren't in a high control group. Now, I have left a few different denominational churches. We've tried out a few different ones. Never did this happen.

In fact, we still go out to dinner. We're still friends with people from different ones because they don't treat you like this. They're not in a mind control cult. That's a high control group.

Yeah. And now, let's let's talk a little about the third group, the people who left because that's a really important thing and pretty sure you have a lot of great insights on this. Now, first thing I would like to say is that you have to grieve the loss of the community that you were a part of. And what is really interesting, you have to grieve the loss of certainty.

What happens to a person that was so sure of something and all of a sudden they realized they were wrong and that that particular thing that they believed affected so many areas of their life, their relationship with friends, family, the way they live. I mean, in a lot of cases is a person just realizing that they were part of an ideology that was somehow biblical and in their own kind of way, but had nothing to do with the Bible. So it might sound contradictory, but it is what it is. Now, any thoughts on grieving the loss of community and certainty because at the end of

the day, John, it hurts. It really hurts to understand this. And this is something that needs to be validated and not a lot of people are aware of this. You know, whenever a person leaves, they go through all of the processing of grief much like if you, you can read these self-help pages online where people are struggling after the death of a loved one. Truly, that's what it's like when you leave one of these groups because your entire identity has been connected to the group.

So whenever you leave it, you actually are killing that identity, that thing that's inside of you that's connected to the group. And it feels like the loss of a life. It really does. I felt it. I couldn't eat. I couldn't sleep. I had trouble focusing. I went through all of the signs of grief, the trauma, et cetera. And in the end, I highly recommend going to see a therapist for counseling because you're going through the same exact thing that if your family dies, you're struggling, that post-traumatic stress that you get, it can destroy your life if you let it.

So I process the grief in my own way, but I also recommend that if you need it, and at times I do even still today, go see a therapist, they'll help you talk through it and they'll help you to overcome.

Yeah, and that's also good to know and to say, professional therapy is one more tool. A professional is not coming to give you any kind of, well, of course there's a few bad apples out there, but a professional is a professional.

They started to do this. So if you go and see a good therapist, it's not the devil. You're not going to be seining because you're going to look for professional health, professional health, sorry.

Now another thing is that you have to pretty much rebuild yourself and learning to make decisions again. And losing this fear of being wrong, and which is something is very, very common in high control groups, because you have this feeling of, I'm not making decisions for myself, so any consequence that I have, it's going to be partially on them.

So this feeling of making decisions again, it's really important. As well as, I'm pretty sure you've said a few things about this, reconstructing faith slowly. You don't have to rush it. It's a process.

Go to a different church when you're ready to go to a different church. Go find a community of believers again. Don't rush it. It's a very important thing, but please, please, please don't rush it.

Because what happens, and I've said this in previous episodes, if you're a person who has been radicalized, gassed what's the next thing most probably that you're going to do, find another radical group. Because the truth is that somehow we are easily radicalizable if that's a word.

But it's a very common thing. That's why you have Christians that have been Christians for many, many years, and all of a sudden, they are fears opponent to the Christian doctrine. They become atheist.

They even become, for a different religion, Muslims or whatever. And again, if you have the chance to go see Davidsab, they're those material. It's in Spanish, but I'm pretty sure you can find it in English as well.

That's a really interesting... interesting material. But yeah, you have to reconstruct your faith slowly. It's a process don't rush it. What you're talking about is revictimization, which is a real problem in the movement. There are people who will, in fact, they'll gravitate to other known destructive cults just because they feel so familiar. And if you really stop and think about that, that's a problem. If you gravitate towards something that is destructive because your life has been in something that's destructive, you know that there's a problem here. And people who are on the outside can see it. I am, I'm one of the people who is like you.

I like to take my time. That's one of the reasons why we tried out several different denominations. I didn't want to jump into anything head first. Now, we did take our time within each one that we went to. In some cases, I think it was a couple of years that we stayed in one or the other. But in the end, I was taking it very slowly so I could learn, what do I agree with? What do I disagree with? How does this fit with my overall personal belief set? And is it compatible? That's really the big thing. But even bigger than this, I know

this will anger half the crowd who's been trained this way. I wanted to see, do the, are the people compatible with me? Because this is a community that I'm joining. It's not just, you know, yes, there is doctrine. Yes, there is preaching. They're all of these things. But in the end, it's really meant to be a community because if you really believe that God sent the Holy Spirit to lead and guide you, it's not the minister or the doctrine that's leading and guiding you. You know what I mean? So I look at it quite differently.

But also I'll say this, there are times that I was so troubled by the PTSD that I had I couldn't sit through a service. In fact, I walked out of quite a few because the triggers were going off in my head so rapidly. I was uncomfortable in my seat. And so there are long periods of time. I'm in one right now, actually, where I just have to take a break.

I cannot do it whenever I'm being triggered. Yeah, I totally agree. Now that leads, leads to the one of the next points here, subjects is finding safe relationships and support is one of the key things that you need if you are leaving those organizations. Because at the end of the day, doing everything alone is harder. In this kind of of of situations, you need support from something else because from someone else, sorry, because one of the things that happens is that everyone around you becomes part of this identity or this community.

So if you lose pretty much everyone around you in a split second. you're gonna be not in a safe place to make decisions. So you really need support. And of course, it would be way much better if you find support from somebody who's not part of that organization and that is willing to help you within the process.

Not push you, not tell you what it is that you need to do because otherwise you would be in a different group of the same kind. But somebody who's just willing to listen to you and not judging you, just there to genuinely care for you.

Absolutely. And this is gonna tie to what you said and to what I said earlier. There are people who are triggered so heavily that they struggle. And I recommend you know, people should go to a therapist when they're struggling.

I also recommend against going to a Christian therapist if you've been in one of these destructive groups. And I know I'll get hate me all for saying that. I did the last time I said it.

It is the truth. If you are triggered by hearing things that remind you of what you came from, it's the same, I can't remember the name of the symptom, but whenever you are with an abusive spouse and you try to date again and you feel triggered by just simply being around another man after you've left your abusive husband, it's that same effect whenever you go to a Christian counselor.

I'm told, I actually because of that, I did not go to one to begin with. I instead chose one who is just general counseling and I came to learn, he was a Christian, but he did not advertise himself this way and he works with people who are or are not.

And so I've gotten to know him quite well over the years. I would never have made it this far if I had have gone to something that was triggering me. It would have just, it would have defeated the purpose.

I'll say it like that. Yeah, that's exactly right. I mean, this has to be understood. And this is what is so hard about spiritual grooming and people trying to live this kind of abusive organizations and religions and the entire thing, is that it's so many things at the same time.

So it's the psychological part, the spiritual part, all those kind of thoughts that you have grieving on one hand and trying to start alive on the other, trying to get into new relationships after being so away from that experience for so many years.

Because what ends up happening is that your entire life it's contained within this group. So everything becomes really, really hard. Everything, it's a challenge after you leave those groups. And that has to be validated as well.

And again. We need to understand that leaving a high-control group is not leaving God. If your heart is really determined and fulfilling God's will for you, and if you really want to do God's will and not your own will, God will find a way to guide you because that's faith operating in you. You're trusting in God that you're making a decision that will be beneficial for your relationship with God, for you, for everyone around you, and God's going to back you up. This thing that this fear that comes out of leaving in any kind of organization,

it's actually one of the key factors to know if you're being groomed spiritually, or if you're being a part of a high-control group. You know, I've said this multiple times. In fact,

he's getting to the point where it's like a broken record and almost hesitate to say it again, but when you're in this type of movement, the picture that they have painted of God is not God, and so when you leave, you're actually not leaving the God of the Bible, you're leaving something else. I said it at the beginning, I'll repeat it again, and I'll probably repeat it like a broken record every single time. The God that they're giving you on this silver platter saying, this is the God of love, it's actually, it makes me sick. It really does. And whenever I left,

I thought that this God was demanding, he was going to be urgent. I had to urgently get into something else because I was going to die if I didn't. That was a God of hatred, and I'll go back to the example that I gave earlier in the podcast. I was talking about the relationship between the father and the child. We're told that this is the heavenly father and that he loves his children, but yet we're also told that he hates us if we stray from his will. He hates us. That's really what there, if you follow everything that they say out to its logical conclusion, it is a God

of hatred. I came to think, what about my own children? What if I had a child who suddenly, I don't know, robbed a bank and went to jail? Would I hate him? I would say, I don't like what you did, son, but I love you. I would love for you to come out of this mindset. Get out of prison, do your time. Let's have a relationship. That's how a father of love does. A father of hatred would say, no, I never want you in my life ever again. The sad truth is, because it is a mind control

cult, they paint the God like this, then the leaders in the church, the ministers, they behave like this, because that's how God behaves. They behave like this. They train the parishioners to be like this. So there are many, I've talked to many escapees who they say, that's exactly what they say.

actually how my parents were. They did not have true love for us. They would have abandoned us. And it's so sad to think of this because that is the mentality that they're teaching and it is the indoctrination that they put in your head. So again, it's like a broken record.

I say this so many times, but that is not the God that's portrayed in the Bible. If you read the entire Bible, cover to cover, understand what it is saying, understand the progression. There is a progression if you read the Bible and you understand it. And it's a progression towards loving the children. That's really what it comes down to. I 100% agree with you.

And that's a great example on it. And sometimes you have to repeat it just because it's a great way for people to understand what this kind of groups do. Now, again, maybe your local church is not the problem. Maybe your organization is a great organization. You've never had this kind of issues, but maybe there's someone else who does. And it's a really, really great thing for everyone to be aware of those things because you're going to be able to help in a much better way if you hear something like this, which maybe it's not your experience, but certainly will help

in helping others. Absolutely. And I was thinking as you were talking, one of the things that really bothers me, I mentioned the way that they portray God, the way it's portrayed in the church by the leadership, flowing down to the people. Well, think about just the dynamics of that.

They have a God who's telling you, you must do this, you must be like this, you must be like me, you must model everything after me, you must even to the extent of whatever is my opinion, you must match my opinion. So you get this whole community of people who try to maintain the same opinion. And you know that sitting in those pews are people who have different opinions, but they have to contain those opinions. They have to be in fear that they can't stray from those opinions. Well, now what happens when somebody from the outside says, hey, this looks like a good

church. I want to join. And they come in and they don't share that opinion. Suddenly you have this conflict that arises. I've watched this happen actually. You have this conflict that arises, the people can't get along with each other. And either the new person is going to conform and suddenly try to change the opinion or pretend that he or she has, or they get kicked out, usually preached out from behind the pulpit until they leave. That's usually how that works.

Take this to the broader scale. This has been a movement. If you look at the new apostolic reformation, you've got all of these apostolic networks that are doing that same thing. And they have merged politics.

merge religion, they've merged all of these different themes. Now, get on Facebook. Anytime there's an election, and you watch people at each other's throats. If they were standing together with a bat or a baseball bat, they would smack each other in the head because you don't agree with my candidate. You are evil. Whenever there's an election, I actually turn off all my social media. I can't put up with this. I respect people who have different opinions. I may not agree with your opinion, but I respect it. That is one of the new freedoms that I had. I did not have that freedom when I was in this type of movement. All this to say,

it is so wrong that they manipulate your views on God, their views of your own opinion, and even what I was headed with this is your own personal convictions. They will try to change an altar. Once you do that, you have actually taken the very thing, the very heart of the person, they are no longer human when you do this. You have taken everything about them. Their identity is gone, and that is so wrong. Yeah, I totally agree. Now, let's do something interesting.

Let's do just a quick recap. Warning signs of being spiritually groomed. Fear of asking honest questions. If you have fear, you should pay attention to that. That could be a sign. If the discernment or a different opinion is punished, or if you need permission for normal adult decisions like trips, job schedules, celebration, even if you want to date someone, those kind of things. If you have like this ministry image valued over personal safety, in a way that you know, that might sound like don't damage to test him any of the church.

If you see this kind of thing like his correction from the pulpit disguised as a message for the congregation, something that is so specific that you know it is for you, but they won't say it. If leaving is described as spiritual danger, those kind of things. Now,

what kind of support for the people that are still inside of those organizations, and starting to see different things? Now, my advice would be pay attention to fear and confusion, and if you're being isolated in some way from your family and friends.

If you believe that you are in a high control group that are not sure, please seek an outside perspective of somebody who genuinely cares for you, and does not want anything in return. And remember that leaving any organization, it's not living God. Now, what about the people who recently left those organizations? Okay, you're going to have to deal with grieving process because you're leaving a community of believers that no matter what they believed, it was your community. You were a part of it. And you have to deal with a grief of that.

If you need it, go see a therapist. That's a wonderful advice. Don't think that therapists are from the devil. They're professionals. They will help you out. And you have to understand this is a process of rebuilding oneself and learning to make the decisions by yourself and slowly reconstructing your faith. It's going to take time. You're going to fail sometimes. You're going to have big wins that will make you fear that you're going through this in a great way. You're going to have bad days and you're going to have worst days as they say. But you're going to have also great moments where you realize that your

relationship with God is getting better. And again, find safe relationships. Try to find and pray for people to get around you with just the best intentions of watching you, the valor of again, your trust in God and finding the way that God wants for you. And remember, having a high control group is not leaving God. Absolutely. And I remember back to whenever I left many of these same questions I had when leaving. And for me, they were very troubling.

So hopefully we've said something that can help somebody who's troubled. Thank you for doing this. Welcome, John. And yes, I hope this helped someone out there that needed to hear this. And let's pray in hope that this will be helpful for a lot of people.

Absolutely. Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at William-Branum.org. For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR, Available in Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.