The Cost of Following Thus Saith the Lord

Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Browns, I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Browns, at William-Bratham.org and with me I have Kim McBride, former member of Word of Faith, New Apostolic Reformation and the Shepherding Movement.

Kim, it's good to have you on and that's a mouthful Word of Faith, New Apostolic Reformation Shepherding. I went to a picnic one time and I talked to this guy who I think he described himself the same exact way and he had some very good memories, fond memories of being in each of those things and he had some very triggering troubling memories of being in each of those things.

So he was trying to explain to me his journey and anyway I'm interested to hear multiple journeys and yours I'm really interested because of some of the things that you mentioned in your email.

But maybe we could begin just tell everybody a little bit about yourself. Well I became a Christian when I was in my early 20s and I'm a retired nurse and I think the main, I really don't have a whole lot to say about myself except the one thing that I do want to platform this all on because it affected me so greatly was I was involved in well house meetings, there was a few church meetings but it was NAR Word of Faith, I don't know how to describe it and there was a minister that would come and he was this prophet that would come to our city

and somebody invited me to go to see him and I was going through a real traumatic time during my life. I was in a really bad marriage with my three children and it was their father and we were going through a lot of emotional turmoil and I was always crying out to the Lord to deliver me from this situation that I was in and I went to see this so-called minister the first time I ever went and I was pregnant with my daughter, my youngest daughter and he gave me, he called me up, he called my, he said little lady in the red would you stand up and I did

and he started telling me all this stuff about myself and I just started blubbering, I was just crying and crying and I've heard of cold readings and all of that but which which it may have been but I mean the things he was saying there was no way that he would have known and I just knew it was God speaking to me and so I went back and saw him several more times and he spoke some more of the turmoil's particular turmoil that I was going through in my life, my children even actually got words at one meeting and of course they record it

and give you the cassette tape and I stood on those words for several years and they didn't come to pass quite the opposite came to pass and all of this didn't blow up in my face until I'll tell later what all happened but all of this didn't blow up in my face to where I really had to deal with it all until the IHOP scandal came out because this man he wasn't involved in IHOP that I'm aware of but he talked about the Kansas City prophets this was back in the early 90s like Paul Cain he would talk about Paul Cain's watch stopping and all these kind of crazy things

and you know there's a lot of people who really doubt that things are happening in the revival meetings or in these ministries where they have the prophetic things I'm one of the few people who have also witnessed things that they just knew things that they could not have known and I'm not saying that in a bad way these these were actually good people that this happened to me with but they were caught up in a movement that wasn't good the problem is it seems to be widespread and there do seem to be some tricks involved in some of the ministries so I'll pose it like this

if there is a real thing there's an awful lot of the false thing mixed in with it and so you can't really tell what's real and what's false but you wrap yourself so much up into these ministries that it becomes your everything your life is so intermingled with the life of the people who are involved with it that you become part of the you become part of the system the problem is like you said what if if that system starts to fail what if the prophecies start to fail then you're asking the question well I know this real thing happened to me what about this false thing that's

happening now and people don't really know how to bridge that gap of understanding so a lot of times they'll just say well I'll put that on the shelf I'll think about that later and later really doesn't happen I'm glad that you were able to get out that's the the other whole thing about it is that I wasn't really involved in any kind of a community as far as as a church goes even a community Christian community I was just I was basically unchurched but I was going to these meetings and I just had myself in the Lord and of course I didn't open my Bible much back

then because I was never taught that's what I needed to do. And so I was was relying on these words that this man had given me as though they were thus say at the Lord because when the person speaks they that's how they frame it as though they are saying now I'm going to do this and you know how they do the words and so I relied on those words as though they were literally the word of God which was horrible because you know promised the salvation of my unsaved husband the you know all these promises he would tell

you things of things there's no way that he could have known and then he would prophesy things that were going to happen in the future and the way he would say it he would say it as if it was the Lord's voice and it was a guaranteed promise that there's no way that this is not going to happen and I promise you this is going to happen and that is going to happen that didn't happen at all the complete opposite and my husband ended up divorcing me and of course I was going through turmoil because I had you know told the children we're fighting the fight of faith you know that's

one thing I would I would always remember you know about Timothy being told to fight the good warfare according to the prophecies that were given him and all this and so that what I was trying to do I thought and teaching my children the same way and of course when it all blew up that wasn't good and he ended up divorcing me and the bad part about it is I started going I did start attending a church and I met a man there that used to go to a church that when I first got saved we were

friends with and I had no idea I was still standing on the words from my husband even after the divorce I was still standing on the words still telling the children the Lord's going to save you daddy he's promised this that and the other and we had had a super bad Hellstorm slash tornado they don't know in my hometown and had I had some damage to my house and this man that I met was talking to me we were rehashing old times but he sounded so spiritual he was talking about the cross of Christ everything that I always wished I could hear a man say and of course I've been married to my husband

for 17 years but from the time I was barely 16 and he was more like a father to me than he was a husband I mean he so having him leave my life was a very big trauma of abandonment and so when this guy shows up it was it was not good And he met emotional needs that, you know, and I knew the Lord was warning me to get away from him, but I didn't do it. You know, I just kept on saying, I'm okay, Lord, I'm okay. Well, we ended up committing fornication with this man I did. And then he held the Bible over me and told me,

now we need to make this right. We need to get married and make what we've done make this right in the eyes of the Lord. And I'm like, I didn't know what to do. I wasn't such turmoil. And anyway, we, we did end up getting married. And the next morning, um, after our wedding night or whatever, I can remember sitting in the bed next to him with my knees up in my chest, just wailing because he knew the man that did that I got involved with. He knew I was standing on prophecies for my husband. And it sounds crazy to get involved with him like I did. Uh, but then not only that,

but then I traumatized my children because I promised them that I was, that their dad was going to be saved. And here I married another man. And so anyway, we ended up going to a meeting my, my, uh, side of the family and my husband's whole side of the family was there. And we, we went to meetings down there. They would have meetings every several months that were like nationwide. Uh, you know, people had moved from all over the United States to be there from this person that, uh, it used to be on TBN. And I did look it up. And it was a fact he had been on TBN

and very charismatic, very, uh, he was into the shepherding movement, uh, big time. And uh, anyway, me and this new husband that I married, we went down there. And, uh, you know, when I was very broken and everything and open to the Lord and this man that eventually ended up leaving that place was there. He was a, like a co-minister. He ended up giving us a word. And he, as he gave me in my new husband this word, he said, the Lord is telling me to tell you, uh, that he wanted us to move down there basically. And we did. We came back to our hometown, our house

that I was living in, which he had moved in with me, sold immediately. We went down to the city. If I tell you the city, it will be the name of the church because that's what the name of the church is.

Uh, so anyway, we went down to the church and started trying to settle in and everything. And, um, the start of the abuse at that church was, uh, one Sunday morning, we were in praise and I think the man started.

Preaching already and I was still in such turmoil for what I had done with my children and everything my children were still with me I had gotten custody of them and everything that I got up in the middle of the service and left and it's a small city and You know, I drove our my van home to our where we were staying and I knew you know, he could find a way home I wasn't and my children. I think we're visiting my my first husband for the summer and and Anyway, I had left during the middle of the church service because I was in such turmoil and

then the next Sunday we went to church and In the middle of the service and this was a this was a frequent thing that the the leader did He mentioned he started saying you know the funniest thing happened in the last service and he started saying About how I got up and left in the middle of the church in other words He was shaming me in front of everyone and he looked over at me as he was doing that and as he looked over at me He saw tears in my eyes and he said to me

He didn't he didn't even look at me when he said it He said but he made the statement and do not come to me after this service and confront me or you'll embarrass me and you'll Embarrass yourself and so about I don't know a few days I don't know when it was later. I went made a meeting you had to make meetings with the elders They had a passing under the hand that you had to do and all this before you could even come to the church If you were going to join and you had to have regular meetings with the elders, you know to make sure you could

Buy a car or move or get married or whatever and I had a meeting with the elder and I sat there in the meeting with the elder With this new husband that I had married and I told him the whole story of getting the word and how I ended up marrying this man And he's sitting right next to me and I'm in the presence of this new husband and I'm telling him You know, I know the game you played on me and where I'm at and everything so I'm in such turmoil over at all and

So this elder he said well, let me call the main elder the one that shamed me and so he called him It took him a while. He finally got there. I can't even tell you He had a hair. He's I won't even say what I would like to say, but anyway, he came in he sat down and I was proceeded to talk to him and but I said to him with tears my eyes. I think I was actually crying I said the way that you shame people from the pulpit I said that's sinful. It's not right because I'd seen him do it before me

well, and he stood up on his feet and turned on his heels and walked out of the office and You could have heard a pen drop and I think we'd left shortly after that because there was Like I said, I think the children, my children were still spent in the summer with their dad and hometown.

And I was crying out to God to get me out of this marriage, still believing for this word to come to pass. Even though I'd screwed up, that's how crazy it was. And the man that I was currently married to, he became, I had to get out of the marriage because he was, he would have killed me.

He told me, he only beat me two times, but the last time they did, he told me, he'd get away from him or he would kill me. And I believed him because I'd never been treated that way before.

So anyway, I got out of that marriage and he tried to hold the Bible over me that it was a send to divorce and this and that and the other. But I know that the Lord led me out of that marriage.

I ended up moving back to my hometown, still holding onto the words. And it's such confusion and turmoil of what I've done and just, and trying to get my life all back together. And I went to work, I'm a nurse, I went to work.

And I ended up, in the midst of all this, the first husband was in adultery, had been the whole time he was living with another woman, which was very distressing to me and my kids because he would take the kids with her, the new woman they would go and the kids would come home and tell me what all they'd done.

And you know, it was very distressing. That's a terrible thing to have gone through. And yet at the same time, I have heard testimonies from other people, some of which you've come on the podcast with very similar stories.

It's not that that type of thing is widespread, but the problem is that it is enabled in this movement because of the way the movement, the way that the system empowers the leaders to have governing power over the people.

You mentioned the shepherding movement, some of these things. That was one of the problems and the reasons why the shepherding movement was disbanded. Once you give a person that much authority over another human being, if something happens within that person and they start to have psychological problems, that will manifest in the way that they treat the people under them.

And yet at the same time, there are people who really should not be in leadership. I'll just say it like that, who are in it. And they're empowered, which makes it all the more scary when you think of some of the examples, what you're telling, and some of the examples you read in the news.

And it all comes back to this. One of the things that you said, they're using, thus say at the Lord, constantly in these types of movements. They come out and they say, God told me this and you listen to it and you have to think, well, if God told them, I have to believe it.

You really can't question it. You can't question anything. Well, once they realize that they have that power of you, now let's enter that into your personal life. God told me that you need to do this or God told me we were made for each other.

That kind of thing happens. And I have seen the families. In fact, I'm close friends. with a family that was in a similar situation, their lives were just totally destroyed, because of a minister who had that much power over the people.

That's absolutely the way it was. When I came back to my hometown and I was in all the turmoil from still believing the words and them not coming to pass and I happened to, at the place that I was working, it was an urgent care clinic.

One of my high school friends came in and we used to be best friends our whole time in high school together and she said, hey Kim, it's your birthday today. She said, let me take you out for a drink and I'm like, no, I don't do that, I don't, and I thought to myself, you know what, I'm pretty, I'm going to go, I'm going to go have a drink.

I'm just about had it, you know, and I shouldn't have done it well. The horrible thing that happened was I became addicted and it was not long after that that I was a full blown addict and little did I know, I don't know anything about that world even though I was in it a little while just up in high school but it is very dangerous and it was like Jonah, people all around me were getting arrested and all kinds of things and I ended up getting, they actually gave me some poisons, something and I ended up in

the emergency room and I knew that if I didn't get out of there that I was going to die. So I ended up going to getting myself into a place called New Life for Girls, which is, I don't know if you've ever heard of Cookie Rodriguez, she was, it was, it came out of the David Wilkerson Teen Challenge program type thing for women and I spent 18 months there and the Lord did a tremendous healing in my life and I still kind of was holding on to those words but I was trying to put them out of my life and trying to get my life.

I just did a deep healing, I couldn't remember before I went crying and saying to the Lord, I wish I could go into the foreign Legion, I just wanted to get away to get my head straight and he answered my prayer about letting me get all involved in all of that and so anyway, we ended up, I ended up working again, I was single and my sister and her family were in the town in East Texas still heavily involved in that church, the Shepherding Church and she was pregnant with, I think, her fourth or fifth child, I can't remember and she had a

stillborn, a baby boy. And my youngest daughter back then was getting started to get into trouble and be rebellious and all I can't remember how she was she was 12 or so I can't remember but I just knew The Lord was wanting me to go back to to this city and I did not want to go I did not the Lord was let me know in in prayer times and stuff He wanted me to go back to this city I didn't want to go because I knew going back to the city didn't mean just going back to the city

It meant going back to this church and I did not want to go back to that church, but I said, okay, I'm going so Once I finally got ourselves moved back down there what you have to do is call and make an appointment with The elder the main you know elder that's under the leader and have a passing under the hand meeting And I hadn't seen this person since the last meeting That I had with the former husband he met me out in the forer and I'll never forget he he saw me in the forer and he he put his hand up at me like and rolled his eyes like come on back

Do where he was almost like just just a contempt and disgust towards me and I think he'd been instructed by The main leader don't let this lady back in our church. So But I went in had the meeting Talked very briefly and he pounded his hand on the desk and all he kept saying to me Well, are you ready to submit are you ready to submit and my head was just down He had no idea what all I had been through the past you know two years or whatever that I was Had been there before I put my down my head down

I just had tears coming down and I put my head up and I asked him in tears I said are you still mad at me from the time before and he just started laughing and tried to brush it off and Came over and patting me on the shoulder said no You know, but I had a target on my back when I went back to the place You know one of the real problems with the movement that I noticed was that people who had really sincere We would call it precious faith those who had the the sincere faith the ones who really believe the most

Those were the ones that were exploited the most I'm right Those are the people who they could look at and see well this person is really trying Let's get in their head and that's what they did in some cases Not every church was like that. I'm not gonna say that the entire movement was like this But there were certain people that that was just their psychological makeup if they could see that they could control a person They would gravitate to that person and then amplify that problem with those who should not be in mastery, like the people that you're talking about,

those kind of people, it's like they can sense it in the audience. They will just hone right in on that person, and that person is just seeking God. They're literally there because they're seeking God, and like you, you came back because you're seeking God, and now the predators move in.

That is the most distressing part about all of this, is that all of the people that are there, they came there, they're several that are there, that gave up entire churches as pastors of churches, to come to be a part of this movement they thought.

Of course they make it as though they're elite, and on the cutting edge of what God is saying to the body of Christ, the same thing that I hop did, but I went back, I ended up meeting my husband, and who was the brother of some of the pillars

in this movement that when it first started, and me and my husband got engaged, and I'll never forget when the first Sunday that we walked in holding hands, that up on the stage was the main leader, and the elder that I had been involved with, and the main leader just put his head down and just shook his head in disgust.

So he'd watched us walk in, and he was looking at us, and he just put his head down like, oh, she's a joke or whatever, and that's all fine and good. I remember the Lord comforted me quite a bit of that scripture that says they wagged their heads, they reviled him wagging their heads as they passed by, because that's what it was similar to when all this started, the pain of all this started coming up, but anyway, we were engaged, and we were planning on being married and everything, and this is crazy and this sounds terrible,

but this man, the main leader, he had a marriage conference, I'll never forget this, and he invited, he had this teaching called the Mystery of Marriage. He had several teachings, and I think a lot of his stuff came from what Watchman Knee, he invited all anyone that was married or was engaged, leaving it open to us.

I didn't say this, but this man's wife, the first time that I was there, she, the first wife, she was a very modest, very godly woman trying to submit and just do the best she could, she taught the women, she was very admired by everyone there, and very modest, very taught the women, modesty and everything.

She ended up getting breast cancer. or and it was very treatable because of because of the word of faith. She died a very slow agonizing death of something that could have been treated. You know, she didn't die until February. I think this was diagnosed and I want to say 97 and she didn't pass away until 99 February of 99 and the man remarried in April of 99 and he married a woman like 20 years younger than he was that looked like she came out of a cosmopolitan magazine and nobody batted an eyelash. I mean, she came

dressed. My husband told me about this. He kind of paraded her down like, you know, hey, look what I've got now and it was just, you know, no one batted an eyelash. It was like they could do whatever and nobody would, you know, there, I don't know if anyone left the church then or not, but anyway, going back to this marriage seminar that we went to, it was just when it's like seminar, it was just a meeting, you know, a regular a regular church meeting, but they called it a seminar and and he prefaced the meeting by saying, now I'm going to be having this discussion. We're

going to be talking about marriage and I may be any said, if you ever religious spirit, you may be offended by some of the things that I might say. Well, he had a dry erase board during that seminar. This is sounds too, it sounds unbelievable to even be, it's unbelievable. He drew on the board showing about pleasureing a woman. And I mean, we didn't go back to the meetings, of course, but I mean, the fact that no one in the meeting ever said anything, you know, this was the kind of things that would happen and he would make, I already make statements while I was there before.

I can look out on this, this audience and I can tell you which one of these women I could go to bed with. And, you know, looking back at that now, I didn't, now where I'm at, I would have stood up and say, you just told of the sin in your heart of the lust that you're having, but yet you're making yourself off to be this discerning person that all these people just ate all that up, you know, and it was just, it was just crazy. And then moving on, me and my husband, we continued today, we

continued to go to the church and one day I get a phone call from an elder and I answered the telephone. He said, he said my name and then he said, Kim, you need to submit, he was yelling at me.

You need to submit your life to the Lord Jesus Christ and he was yelling. And I said, and I said his name and I said, what? And he said it again. He didn't explain and he said it again, the same exact phrase. And finally, I started crying and I said, brother, I said his name and I started crying. And I said, what is all this about? And when I started crying, he started laughing and he hung the phone up. And I ran into his wife that evening at the grocery store and I met her. I'll never forget it was in the yogurt aisle. And she was crying. She saw me.

And she said, I'm so sorry, Kim, that and I hugged her. I said, it's okay. It's okay. You know, don't worry about it. It's okay. And then the next Sunday, I went to church and I went up to him and I approached him and I said his name, brother, son, so I said his name.

And I was trying to humble myself. If I've done anything wrong and he just shoot me away with his hand, like get away from me and turned and walked away. And then I went up to his wife to embrace her a minute or two later and she just turned on her heel and shunned me.

And I'm like, so the next Monday, I think it was, I made a meeting and I met with his wife in her office because they have a school there. And I went in her office and I sat down and I sat there and looked across the table from her desk and I said her name. I said, I don't know what in the world is going on. I said, but I am clean by the blood of Jesus. And I don't remember, I was trying to defend myself that I had not done anything wrong to be treated in such a way

that I couldn't figure out why I was being treated that way. And she says to me, her husband, the one that had done it was in the very next office. She could have heard a pin drop. He was listening.

And she said to me, have you ever heard of the sufferings of Christ? Another word saying that going through these things is the sufferings of Christ. And I told her, yes, I know of the sufferings of Christ. And I don't even remember what else was said. There wasn't much said after that. I just got up and left. And I remember calling my former counselor from the program that I used to be in and she said, that's sick. Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic and other

fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation? You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, William-Branham.org. On the book's page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Steven Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.

You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top. And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching. On behalf of William-Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support. The sad part about this is, I know there are people listening, that will say this is an extreme case.

Well, you're talking about a movement that wasn't even connected to mine, and I have, I can put in my mind faces to people who are doing similar things. And I've had other people who were in ministries that also weren't connected, and they have faces that they can put to it.

This movement, this thing that Brannum created, Brannum and Lindsay created this thing, where it enabled people to get ultimate power over the people in their church. And they would say that it was for God, they would use thus say at the Lord all the different things that you're talking about.

This is what spun off into the word of faith movement. They said, we literally have the voice of God flowing through our mouths. It's a new revelation. But then people like this were also in the mix.

And none of the people who had this quote-unquote true revelation even had the power to see that among these sheep, there are these wolves who are going to rise into power. And some of them, I'm not going to give names, you actually mentioned the television station that had it.

But there are people who are connected directly connected to ministers who are in the movement who claim that they have the power of God to see. Why can't they see the wolves? That's really the question that I ask.

Well, we ended up leaving, talking about the message, this man, the main leader, he would have these angelic visitations, that was the other thing that he would do. He would have angelic visitations and he would tell of these things to people.

And the last one that I remember, one of them was at a pizza hut, that he said that he was there with his first wife and the angel appeared again, that he had seen in a while and the angel appeared again and he spoke to the angel and he said, I didn't catch your name the first time, could you tell me your name?

I mean, these are the kind of stories that he would tell and people would just sit there and not, you know, it was just, just blow your mind that no one would question these things.

But the last thing that he said when you bring up the message was that he was in his tent one night, he would take men, this is the other thing, he would take men to a nearby state and they would have men's meetings.

And when he did, a lot of the men's meetings that he went around the campfire was teaching the men how to pleasure their wives. And so the wives, I can remember my sister bragging about how she was so glad that her husband went to the meeting and this is, and he even made the statement from the pulpit.

The wives, the husbands may end up leaving but the wives will stay with me in this group. I mean, you know, and nobody bats an eyelash at any of this stuff. And so we ended up leaving, we ended up moving back to my hometown, I had gotten a phone call that my daughter, from my, from...

from her father that she had attempted to self harm. And I just got in the car and I drove to the hometown. We moved back to where I'm from. And I had found a blog during all this time of a man that had started a blog about all the misdeeds of this place and the abuse that he's done.

He had gone to South Africa and caused much harm down there in families, broken up families. And the other thing, I can remember being at a service there. I don't know if you ever remember that song called Who Let The Dogs Out?

They sing that song and their worship. Who Let The Dogs Out? And then they would chant, release the dogs of war. And they had some of the men and the thing dressed up in fatigues as like a ceremony that they were going to go in and tear churches down.

But and to follow him basically. And on that blog, the blog that I found, I got quite involved in it. There was very few people on it, but the guy that owned the blog, he really liked what I had to say because I had a lot to say because I had studied out all these false things that were going on.

And I was able to, he liked my, the words that I said. So he liked me being on his blog. And it was on a Facebook page and it had my picture. And I had a, you know, a name that no one knew.

And I asked him, please do not let anyone know who this is. And one of the doctrines that they had down there, and I've confronted recently in months because me and my husband, we have a Facebook page and our main goal was to reach people there to get them out.

And I, we put up one of the doctrines that they had was they would use Galatians chapter four where it talks about how that we were under tutors and governors until the time of, you know, how the law was our schoolmaster to lead us to Christ.

But they used, they twisted it and used the tutors and governors phrase as tutors and governors are who you need to be under until you become a full, full grown son. This is how they framed it.

And this how they still frame it. My husband was told when we left the church, someone took him out to eat that was an acquaintance and said, I'm worried about your sonship. You know, if you leave, you're going to lose your sonship.

You know, that's what you're taught there that if you're not obedient, you know, and you're familiar with the way they do that. Anyway, I got involved on this blog and someone on the Facebook page, which the blog was on from the church that had left there, me a friend request. And he, I objected to his friend request and I wrote him a long rebuking reply of why I did not want to accept his friend request of all his mistreatments that he did and his hypocrisy for now wanting to be my friend after the way he shunned

me and the way he was at the church, you know, basically I just confronted the church, the church's misdeeds on Disguise, Facebook page. Well, the blog owner of this saw it and he took a, he took it and posted it on his blog about the church, which put my identity out there.

So everyone knew that it was Kim McBride that was writing these things, which was a disaster because the McBride family is, they have eight children. It was the husband and why my, my brothers, my husband's brother and his wife, they have eight children plus several many grandchildren.

It's a huge family that are in this thing and it's grown over the years. But back then, that's what happened. And shortly after that, just months after they found out who it was that was on this blog because what the man would do is he would record their on live, not live, but he would, he would review their services. They had it on YouTube and he would review the services or a recording. He had some way to get a recording of it. I can't remember if YouTube was going back then or not and he would critique their services and I would be there critiquing with him as well.

But then my identity got put out. They already knew who he was, but I didn't want my identity out. But there it was. Well, months later, my daughter completed her attempt at taking her life. She was gone. And of course, that was the judgment of God on me for speaking out against this leader.

And we didn't hear anything from them at all. Actually, it was a real hard time. But then years later, and I got off that blog after that man did that to me. Exposed me everything. I just quit. I thought, you know, what's the point? I'm not going to do it anymore now that everyone knows who I am. I've said plenty. I mean, I called the man diatrophes, all kinds of things. I expose their false teachings and a bunch of things. And I'm just going through all that. I wasn't going to. So I just backed away from it. And I stayed back to away from it from the longest time.

Anyway, the IHOP came out. And in 2020, my younger daughter overdosed and passed away. And no condolences. Once again, and I don't even think we even told them until my brother-in-law called my brother up one day.

This was the crazy part about it is, I can't remember if I was going on, I don't remember the reason why I started getting interested again and what was going on over at that church, but I did and I started looking the man up and I found out that he was doing a podcast with another man trying to, you know, that's what he would do to get involved with this other group and this other group trying to garner more support for his movement or whatever.

And he ended up getting taken down. Somebody reported to this person that he was on, that they need to get away from him. And I guess they took him seriously and they took the leader of this cult that I was in down.

And I was just spending a lot of time and prayer about it and everything. And the next thing I know, a month or two later, my brother-in-law calls my husband and says, we're wanting to come see y'all.

And they live in East Texas, eight hours away. And when I found that out, I was just like, I said, there is no way. I can't, there's no way that I can have this, you know?

And I prayed and prayed about it and I finally, I got peace and I said, I told my husband, I said, they're not coming, it's gonna work, they're not coming. Well, no, they were coming and they showed up.

And when they did, they pulled into our driveway, I was beside myself, the love of God that came out from me towards them was just, it was supernatural and I embraced them and I just loved them.

And I didn't, we didn't talk about anything for the for several days until one day during their four or five day visit, I did get to expose a lot of things that they did not know.

And my sister-in-law said, she just rolled her out. She said, oh, I just let that stuff roll off my back like water, off a ducts back. I don't, you know, she was very dismissive of it all even though it was quite shocking.

It's in more detail than what I've given you, the things that happened, you know? Because they had all been told a narrative by this leader. You know, they had to have been, been told a narrative by this leader about me, you know?

And I, but I did confront my sister-in-law about their non-condolences of the deaths of my daughters and she apologized somewhat. She just, you know, she didn't seem that sorry but she apologized and I was grateful, you know, I was glad, I was more grateful that I got to tell my side of the story and let them know they've been deceived all this time that didn't change their, the way they thought.

She made the statement though and this was crazy. She said, well, we thought once about leaving. and my brother-in-law looked at her and said, we did, and it was weird. But anyway, they ended up leaving.

They ended up going back to East Texas. And I had a few texts back and forth with my sister-in-law. She was still, it was like they have the mindset there. If you're not part of their group, and you are a Christian that has any kind of walk with the Lord, it's almost like how the elder brother and the prodigal son, they're kind of like the elder brother, like, you know, we've been going through all this for years, sticking with this guy.

And you've got to walk with the Lord, and you haven't gone through us, what we've gone through, staying with this man. It really breaks my heart to hear the stories like yours where there are lives involved.

I have had, I can't tell you how many multiple people have told me that they either had a friend or a family member that this is happening. And the other thing that's really hard for me, I can't even put all of that on YouTube because YouTube does not, the platform does not allow me to talk about that specific subject.

And I'm dancing around the word if you can't tell. But it is widespread in this movement, and it needs to be talked about. That's one of the real hard truths. And at the same time, I have had multiple people tell me, in fact, I wanna say early in my, when I first began this in 2012, was the first person.

They told me, John, I have tried to do the thing that you're describing with your daughter's multiple times. And until I started getting into your research, I never knew that it was the church causing me this.

And this person is thriving today. This is a person who escaped the deep program they got through it. But think of all the people who don't escape. That's really the hard part for me.

And that really is widespread. And I'm glad you're talking about it. And I'm glad you talked about it in the way that you did because I think I can release it like this. It's really difficult for people like me to talk about.

But this is a really hard story. Yes, well, my sister-in-law, like I said, we had texts back and forth a little bit. And then one day, we had our final interaction. And she initiated it and wanted to say that she was sorry for their non-condolence of the deaths of our daughters.

She didn't come out and say the word shunning, but she was basically trying to say that. And she said, she just didn't understand at all. And I was in tears, and I accepted her apology.

And we, over the phone, embraced each other in love. And I told her I loved her, and it was very emotional. And then about a month or so later, I don't know. I'm sorry.

We got a phone call that she was killed in a fiery crash. And we were, of course, just in shock and my husband and me both were like, we're going down there. We didn't get condolences in our tragedy.

We are going to go down there and show them what the Lord wants for us to be is the body of Christ. So we went down there and a large family was there and it was a little bit at a time one by one, the grown up, the grown children, now they were all grown and I'm stumbling around.

They gave me condolences and they apologized for not giving us any condolences at the loss of my daughters, but the fact was it wasn't any of them that we were really that upset about it was there.

It was my brother and sister-in-law because they were too young to expect them to give condolences at the time that it all happened, but anyway. So we went to the memorial service and I was hopeful.

It seemed as though the Lord was healing up our family somewhat and it was really, I was hopeful and I was, I was praising the Lord expecting that there was going to be some kind of healing in all of it and we went to the memorial service about a week later, everyone came from out of town and all over the place and I knew there would probably be some shunning, but I had no clue what it was going to be and I'm sure there were several hundred people there.

I would make eye contact with people, you know, we went in there and we were sitting down and everything and I would see people that, you know, I used to be somewhat friendly with and when they recognized who I was, of course, they'd been 20 years, so of course we've aged and everything, but when they recognized who it was, they were looking at, they would have a smile on their face and when they recognized it was me, they would grimace and turn their face away.

And you know, which that wasn't, that wasn't, it was painful but it wasn't, I expected somewhat that, but the weird part was my husband never had any problems with the charge. He never spoke against him, it was always me.

He was an innocent victim, they all thought that just married this woman that's crazy, they think. So the thing that was so, that was so hurtful is that we were standing there and, and just me and my husband were standing there and one elder comes up to him and grabs him by the shoulders and embraces him and says his name and then puts him at arm's length and looks him in the eyes and tells him how much he loves him and how are you doing, buddy?

We just think you're, we just love you and this and that and I'm standing right next to him. As though they were instructed by someone and I think I definitely think... they were to do this to purposely embrace him and to ignore me because two three people did that back to back the exact same thing and when we left there that day as we were walking out to the car I actually my sister was there because she used to be she went to the memorial service too she moved back to her hometown and when I saw her we we hadn't seen each other for years but when

I saw her during the moment after all that happened I just fell into her arms and started bawling I said you're the first friendly face I've seen in all of this but anyways we were walking out to the car after it was over with me and my husband I've never seen my husband's eyes filled with such anger it frightened me he was so angry but then he my husband and he wouldn't mind me telling you this he's a kind of stuff things emotionally and he did for a long time until we until recently but then months later I put up in the middle of the night on a Facebook page what had happened at

that memorial service and I got a direct message back from the daughter of the woman who perished my sister-in-law and she said Aunt Kim I'm in tears I can't believe that you were done that way I'm so sorry I can't believe and she's a member of the church she said I'm so sorry that you were done that way she was so upset that I was mistreated and then a few days later after the next Sunday service she direct messaged me and said Aunt Kim do you know the pain that you're causing our family and I mean I was just you know and it's it it was pretty much left that way

it never did resolve after that and so that's that's pretty much the end of the story and we're we've got our Facebook page up and we're still trying to reach people but uh they've reframed things they've been confronted about their false doctrine they just reframe it it's still ever since the man the main man uh he had had a heart attack and I'll tell you I I prayed for that man I did I I don't even want I wouldn't even a real Christian in my mind does not even want to see Hitler go to hell you know that's just the the Lord has no pleasure in the death of the wicked

and and I prayed for him then he ends up getting leukemia and it was very fast-active and died and and and and the his his second wife ended up leaving the church but they're still continuing on with their discipleship uh program and they're the way that they've always been but they don't have that main leader there with that fear that kept everyone bound it's not near like what it used to be but the fact that um I didn't get to say this that two different people during all this time one was one of the main leaders that was with this guy he wrote

out a public letter and we have it on our page, separating himself from this leader and saying having begun in the spirit, he's now in the flesh and he is sinning, he is broken up families and all this kind of stuff and I want to publicly say, I do not, he called it out. Unlike people like Derek Krants that went away from it and never said a word, this man went away from it and he had plenty to say, so he wouldn't be associated and then another leader did the same thing, he called him out because he was supposedly this

man's overseer, this man, this leader there didn't have an overseer, he was discipled by the Lord Jesus Christ, although everyone else had to be discipled by them, I'm rambling but thank you for your opportunity to let me say all this, I appreciate it.

If you could go back in time way back before all of this happened knowing all of the things that you would go through, very, very hard things that you have gone through, if you could give some advice to yourself, what advice would you give yourself?

Open the Bible, open the Bible, read the words of Jesus, the words that stick out to me and my main warning to everyone is if they say, here's Christ, there's Christ, somebody anointed, someone that Paul said, hey, what are you doing? Don't follow me, don't follow a Paulist, don't follow Seifas, follow Jesus and that's not me and my Bible and Jesus, we are to have fellowship but the thing of following a man, following a man is the most dangerous thing, well you know that you can do and giving, they usurp the Holy Spirit in your life and that's just don't allow anybody to usurp your relationship with the Lord.

If the Lord wants to tell me something, the Lord can tell it to me himself, I don't need someone else telling me, the Lord says to you, I'm not completely close to that but I'll tell you, I've got a seat belt with airbags when it comes to the charismatic movement.

And for people who are listening who might want to reach out and connect with you or your materials, where do they find you on the web? Well they can find us on our Facebook page, it's Michael Kim McBride, we combined our names and direct messages there, I think all of this John has been for my own healing just to tell it, I don't, as much as I hope that people will come out of it, after all of this, you know it's like a Jim Jones thing, you're in it so deep. They've got so much the other thing I would say they have so much equity in it that

you can't come out of it. You have so much equity that you just can't get away from it. It's a very hard story to listen to, but I think more people need to hear it. Thank you so much for doing this. Thank you, John. I appreciate it very much. Thank you for the opportunity. I'm so I was so surprised that you wanted to hear my story and I appreciate you very much. Thank you for everything you do sincerely. I mean it. Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information or to share your story, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at

william-branum.org. For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR, available in Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.