The Danger of Personal Prophecy

Music Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Brandham Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Brandham Historical Research at William-brandham.org, and with me I have my co-host, minister and friend, Channel Ross, pastor and the voice of the understanding scripture and truth by Channel D. Ross YouTube channel.

Channel, it's good to be back and to talk about personal prophecies. I grew up in this weird world where I wasn't really at the bottom with a rank and file member, and I wasn't really at the top because I didn't have any money.

But there's this weird tear in between the central figure and the rank and file member where you kind of see what's going on, and you're in the know, but you know just enough to be dangerous. And my family was in that section, so we saw some things that were weird.

My family, most of them stayed in it. We did escape my immediate family, my wife and my kids, but we saw personal prophecies. And these things were outlandish. I'm just going to be honest with you.

We heard about personal prophecies. We had legend of personal prophecies. We had everything, the greatest one for me was, no matter what I do in this life channel, I am saved. I have a get out of jail free card. I could do whatever I want. This man, William Brown and prophesied to my grandfather, all your children and your grandchildren will be saved.

And my grandfather wasn't the only one that he did this to, so we all had get out of jail free cards. And there were people, he told one guy that, now whenever I come back, I'm going to drive, drive around from coast to coast, and I'm going to have the biggest tent ever. And I'm going to need you to help me fly it around from city to city.

Can you get me an airplane? And the guy bought the airplane after Brandham died, expecting Brandham to come back. The plane set out until I think it's no longer mobile out in Arizona. I can't tell you how many million dollars, I mean this was one of those big jumbo jets.

It was a million million dollars and more way back then. And it's set there waiting on personal prophecy to be fulfilled. And that's just two of the weirdest ones I could go on for probably the next hour and a half. But needless to say, personal prophecy is the most dangerous, the most absurd, and quite frankly, the stupidest thing that I've ever encountered in religion.

Well, we were talking the last time you and I got together and did a podcast, Sean, about personal prophecy. as it related to Hobart Freeman's ministry. I think in the past weeks prior or months prior to that, we had given the history of how Hobart's charismatic ministry came to be. And that was through personal prophecy. When in June of 1966, he had traveled down to a Gordon Lindsay Deliverance Seminar and had been prophesied over by the prophetess Anna Schrader. So it's very interesting to look in the next few years of Dr. Freeman's teaching ministry when he is now back in

Indiana. He regularly taught against personal prophecy. I think he had he had enough experience and probably enough common sense to know and to have seen a few cases where Person A is giving a word from the Lord. That's the way they always phrase it. I have a word from the Lord for you, brother. Do you want to receive it? And you know, who in their right mind would say, no, I don't want a word from the Lord. So they've already got you hooked by saying, I've got a word from the Lord for you. And I think Hobart had seen maybe some problems with that.

And so he frequently taught against it. And whenever he taught against it, I thought it was good. I mean, he would use 1 Corinthians 14 and verse three saying prophecy is generally not prediction. It's generally not to direct people's lives. It's for edification, exhortation, and comfort. So I always found it fascinating, John, that he taught against it yet his ministry was based upon it. And he himself frequently practiced it. So the only thing I could figure is, well, maybe ministers are an exception. You know, maybe rank and file members in the church are not allowed to give or receive personal prophecy. But since Anna Schrader was a

prophetess, quote unquote, and Hobart was a minister, then she could prophesy to him his future ministry. And then he could prophesy to other people. And so I know in our in our previous talk together, we had a fairly long clip that people heard on from a message entitled ministering by the spirit. It was done in the glory barn in 1973, the second half from what I can figure of 1973. And I say that the second half because one of them, the wolf.

We listened to in one of the highlights of that tape or that message. It really wasn't a teaching. It was Hobart giving words of knowledge, prophecies, tongues and interpretation, personal words to people, was whenever he gave a personal word to Bruce Kinsey, who just happened to be his son-in-law, married to his middle daughter, Kathy.

And that word to Bruce called him into the ministry as a prophet. And I don't know how many people who are Freeman followers today remember that or maybe they don't even know anything about it, but that message is available on YouTube.

You can go listen to it yourself. You don't have to just hear the clip we played. You can hear the whole message or it's not a message as I say. It's just Hobart having words of knowledge and all of these things for people according to him.

And as years went by and I put the pieces of the puzzle together, I realized Bruce had just been recently converted. He had just been saved, I think, that year. And he was one of those so-called hard cases.

He had married Hobart's daughter, Kathy. Kathy was not supposed to be dating an unsaved boy. So she had to do all of this, by her own admission and by Bruce's admission, he had to do all this behind her parents' back.

June didn't even know they were married whenever they got married. So Kathy is out sneaking around by their own admission. She met a guy at a pizza parlour, she thought he was cute, I guess.

I don't know. And ended up dating and ended up marrying Bruce. And Bruce wanted nothing to do with religion, especially not this charismatic version of it in the glory barn. So for Bruce to have gotten converted, and I think Bruce was born again and say, and now a member of the glory barn, that was a feather in Dr. Freeman's cap.

Here my son-in-law has been converted from heathenism to Christianity. So I just think it was all in the spirit of the moment of that year that now Hobart feels like he has a prophecy to give a brand new Christian, save not less than a year, that he's calling him into the ministry as a prophet.

Well, we know that never realized itself, never materialized later on, you know, within 10 years, Bruce was actually leaving the church because he no longer agreed with all of his father-in-law stuff. But something else that I wanted just to mention in that very same YouTube message, entitled ministering by the spirit, later on in that message, because Hobart's giving words to different people, Bruce and Kathy.

Steve and Pam somewhere around the 41 minute mark, we're not going to play this. People can go listen to it for themselves and you'll see why I'm telling this particular story. Dr. Freeman just says, all of a sudden, brother, research, it's your teeth. Well, the reason I say that is because the research couple, Georgian Lillian, were a very well-known couple from way back early days under Freeman's ministry at the glory barn. And I'm going to tell the story the way it actually happened, but I'm not going to reveal any details of research. What can I say? Relatives

that I have talked to having done these podcasts with you. The research were pretty important people, at least the parents were. And so they've children, grandchildren, other relatives. So I won't say which relatives, but I have talked to research relatives and I don't know if they're still following the podcast, but I'm really curious to know, did they realize what Hobart said to their dad, George, brother, research, it's your teeth. My connection to the research is very interesting, John. And it goes back very early. You know, I first learned of Hobart Freeman in 1976. And I immediately that summer in August made a trip to the glory barn.

So in my trip to the glory barn, I was able to meet some people and you know, I was 17 years old, but I was able to meet some people. I never met the researchers, but I heard about this wonderful missionary couple, George and Lillian research, who were missionaries to the Central American Company or country. Back then it was known as British Honduras. I think later in the early 1980s, it became known as Belize. And George and Lillian about whom I have nothing but good things to say.

So if research relatives are listening, don't worry, I don't have anything bad to say about George and Lillian, because I found out who they were. I was able to get their address. And I thought, how cool you got missionaries down in British Honduras carrying this faith message, this healing message, Freeman's message down there. And I knew they were from Cherubusco, Indiana, which is up in kind of like the North East corner of the state. And I thought, I'm going to start supporting them financially. Now I didn't send much because I'm a kid, I don't have much,

but I'm going to start sending them money. And so I did. And then I would receive a postcard, which was just very cool for us. and teen year old to get a postcard in the mail from British Honduras, and it was from Lillian research.

And she was just a lovely, very well-known part of that church, very well-known for doing a lot of cassette tapes geared towards children. So she had like a children's teaching ministry, and yet they were missionaries in a central American country.

I wonder when Dr. Freeman said, Brother Reeser, it's your teeth. He said, God wants me to pray for your teeth, and I'm sure, you know, George was there. He was, you know, back on furlough or something from missionary duty down in Central America, and he went up for the healing of his teeth.

I don't know what that involved, was he missing teeth, did he had cavities? I don't know, relatives, descendants, children, grandchildren may know, but I wonder what happened whenever he was prayed for. I did find out from talking to Reeser relatives that, and they are welcome to correct me if I'm wrong in my memory on what they said, but that George Reeser did unfortunately continue to remain a loyal follower of Dr. Freeman's.

And if I remember correctly, did die from some disease, I don't know what it was, but it was not, it was not a happy death or a happy ending. Lilian, his widow, ended up marrying, believe it or not, Don Nye, who was the person who had allowed faith assembly to build, to erect their new church building on his property.

This was done nice. Third wife, because his first two wives had died of illnesses. I can't say whether treatable or not, it depends on when you call the illness. And so I guess my point in telling that story is, I think George and Lilian Reeser were really good Christian people.

And like so many people who have followed Dr. Freeman or NAR today or whomever, they just got hooked up with a wrong character. And here they are going through, I don't know what, you know, as a missionary in Central America, that's not the life I get to live.

I live in a comfortable home in the United States of America. That was a big ordeal to go and do something like that. And especially do it under the influence or the auspices of a message like Dr. Freeman's.

And then for Dr. Freeman to say, Brother Reeser, it's your teeth. I hope that he went up and got prayed for and his teeth were miraculously healed. My guess would be he went up and was prayed for and they probably weren't.

And then he had to struggle with why they weren't. Well, it's definitely not Dr. Freeman's fault. It's definitely not the message is fault that we've been told. It must be my fault. There must be sin in my life or I must have a lack of faith.

So when I look at myself, John, here 50 years, literally 50 years later, from when I first heard of the research and then I learned how things ended up with them and you put all these pieces together.

There's just so much dysfunction and so much trauma has happened in all of these people's lives. I mentioned before that these personal prophecies can become dangerous, but also mentioned they could be absurd. And I'll read you something that happened in the prayer lines of the ministry that Hobart Freeman was referencing.

Whenever he said William Brandon was God's prophet, everybody who was part of this movement believed this. And even if they did not believe his doctrine, they believed that when people approached him on the stage, the power of God flowed through Brannum into these people.

That was widespread belief, even though that, you know, some of them didn't adhere to the doctrine, but this lady approaches him and he's, he's giving personal prophecy during the prayer lines. And I think that's the part that most historians miss because they think if you are a historian sympathetic to Brannum or Brannumism or in AR, any of this thing, you believe that that's not really personal prophecy.

That is something that's for the whole people. It's for the edifying the body of Christ to come through this healing line. But this lady brings her husband up to William Brannum and to be prayed for.

And the way it worked, you would put in a prayer card and you might write your name and your address and he would tell you your name and your address like any of the gimmicks.

But sometimes they didn't really fill out what he, what the disease was or the affliction was in full. And so Brannum had to, I guess the word is guess what it was.

So the lady comes up and he starts talking to the person and he's trying to get, you know, get a little bit, a little bit to know him so that he can cold read.

I think it's what was happening. And he starts praying and says, and now he can hear, he can hear now. Can you hear me? And he starts talking and the lady, you don't hear this in any of the history books, but the lady it says in brackets, the lady says he isn't deaf.

He has hardening of the arteries. He can't talk. And he says, can't talk. Well, he's sure doing a good job of it now. And the lady says, well, there are a lot of words that he can't say.

He can say some words, but not all words. He struggled. In other words, he is, he's afflicted. He's struggling. And they actually got an argument and she finally says, look, it's not his hearing. In fact, it was his hearing and his speech.

And so the conversation shifts where he's trying to, now he's trying to walk back what he said that it's not the healing. Well, that was a personal prophecy and that's one of the absurd ones because it really does nobody any good The guy left more confused about well, does God not know what I have?

This is kind of silly and I wonder if when George Research walked out of the prayer line He was more confused and when he went up. I mean you know he's expecting his teeth to be healed and whether they were or not I don't know but speaking of William Brannum We've got a wonderful clip. We will listen to here in a moment It was on a message entitled the gift of faith which Hobart taught in the glory barn The same year that he had that ministering by the spirit by the Holy Spirit. This was in 1973

Dr. Freeman was heavily influenced by William Brannum And to this day we have people pushing back saying no, he was an influenced by Brannum and And I guess they're just I mean, they're just denying the obvious and the obvious isn't isn't You know my opinion versus their opinion It's just go listen to the any of the cassettes from the any of the messages from the late 60s through the Yeah, I don't know the first half of the 1970s Hobart continued to believe in Brannum, but he began Post 1975 trying to distance himself a little bit

Um, not because Brannum was Now teaching weird things Brannum had been dead for 10 years It's probably Hobart was becoming a little more concerned about his own reputation So I better I better still stay with him as God's prophet He always said his famous statement was I don't care what anybody says I believe William Brannum was God's prophet But then he would distance himself from some of the teachings that He had heard from Brannum cassette tapes because Hobart was trying to refine his own theology But in this in this message Entitled the gift of fate. He's going to talk about

William Brannum Which we'll listen to here in just a moment I'll just kind of introduce it with what I'm saying now and he's going to tell one of these famous Colorado hunting stories And what's interesting is This is just one of maybe I don't know six or eight or maybe ten Different stories on this same message the gift of faith or Hobart always did very little Bible teaching It was use a verse and then tell just incredible stories And I'm sure I was This was one of the early tapes I heard because When I was first began listening to dr. Freeman in 1976

He didn't have just a whole lot of tapes. He didn't have the tape list that he ended up with When he died in december of 1984 so the gift of fate from 1973 He would have been one that I listened to, and it was simply fascinating.

So he tells that William Brannum, this great man of God, he said he had hundreds of thousands. Those are his words of people healed in his prayer lines, hundreds of thousands of the gift of the word of knowledge.

And Gordon Lindsay was his crusade director, and Gordon Lindsay said, William Brannum never missed it, never made a mistake. So this is what we are being told. This is the buildup to hearing stories of this famous prophet, William Brannum.

And we have played an earlier clip, it's not on this tape, where Hobart Freeman said, William Brannum, William Marion Brannum had the greatest ministry in the history of the Christian Church since the time of the Apostle Paul.

So that's what he thought of him. So if we can, John, let's hear this. It is from 35 minute, 30 second mark through 38 minute and 47 second mark. And William Brannum said, when that anointing was there, the gift of faith was always operating in his ministry, and he couldn't doubt.

He said, when the anointing was not there, I'm like a baby. He says, I can't do anything, you know, as far as those tremendous miracles and things that took place in his ministry, literally hundreds of thousands of people healed and hundreds of thousands of manifestations of the word of knowledge and Gordon Lindsay, who was his crusade director in all those early years.

In fact, most of the time up until, say, in the middle 50s, our late 50s, I suppose, said that he's seen it operate tens of thousands of times. He never once ever made a mistake in diagnosing a disease or casting out a demon or anything he said always came to pass.

And he was under that anointing. So he said one time the Lord taught him how this gift of faith operated, and he was up in Colorado. He would take a month off. He had minister, you know, very hard, and then he wouldn't take a week's vacation.

He'd take a month or two and go up there, get him a horse, and he was quite a hunter. Woodsmann, and he said, he's one day in the woods, wherever he was in this particular area.

And I think it was Colorado, that doesn't matter, this particular time. But he said he was out squirrel hunting in the season when there were no squirrels, you know. They just seasons they don't even come out.

But he was just out, you know, in case he might see one, because he liked to be out in the woods, and he said the voice of the Lord came to him. He said this anointing first came on him.

He couldn't figure out what it was for, because he was out by himself, miles from anybody. or as the Lord came and said, whatever you speak, I would do.

Well, what do you do? Play them all, the people in the first Baptist church and little rock, ock and saw, be saved or.

That the moon will turn to blood or what, you know? He said anything you speak. Now friends, he didn't say anything but. That happened once before when he spoke the word about somebody to be saved.

And they just, I think it's one or two William Brown tells them. He said, just to see spoke it, they just, they fell on their knees and repent it. And they didn't even know what was happening.

Just to see spoke it, they just, they fell on their knees and repent it. And they didn't even know what was happening. He just decreed two people would be saved. They fell on their knees and repent it.

And he, I mean, they didn't hear this. He was doing it under this anointing. And so then he asked, well, what he said, he said that I decreed that three and this is out of the square.

So he was in three gray squares come out on that limb. And then I hit everyone with the first shot with his rifle. You ever shoot the squirrels with a rifle? That's a pretty good trick.

He went out there money. You don't think it is? Go ahead and try it. Now there are no squirrels. And he said he had no sooner spoken the word until a gray squirrel came out on the limb.

Plunk. Plunk. Plunk. There we go. So, you know, when you carefully listen to this story, it's a hunting story, a squirrel hunting story with William Brownam out in Colorado. You carefully listen to it.

There are just so many red flags. You know, Freeman wasn't a hunter. I am a hunter. I was raised in the woods. My father was a hunter. He was a fisherman. I spent, I've spent my whole life since I was old enough to hold a gun or carry a fishing pole, either on the water in the woods.

And you can tell when a story is being told by somebody who has never hunted and doesn't know anything about hunting or guns. And by the way, let me just pair in that eclaim, getting ahead of myself.

But say this, remember that at the, one of the last two messages Hobart Freeman ever preached, he came out with this new, great revelation that overcomers are not allowed to hunt. They're not allowed to have or use weapons of death, weapons of death, weapons of destruction.

And that's one of the reasons that Bruce left, Bruce Kinsey left and just calls a lot of problems. So I find this interesting, Dr. Freeman that this is a truth that Christians can't use guns.

And yet William Brannum was the greatest minister since the Apostle Paul. But man, he was sinning in his life all the time because he was always going hunting somewhere. So you know, stuff like that, John never made any sense.

to me in Hobart's life. He was so contradictory. He'd say one thing one year and contradict himself, you know, five years later. And you could never make heads or tails of it. But he said that that William Brownham is out. He'd take a month off and he'd go to Colorado. He'd get a horse and then he'd go squirrel hunting in the woods. And then he'd say, now this, you know, when you hear the story, you just laugh, this, this was the time of year when there were no squirrels. Well, then why is a guy hunting then, you

know, an experienced hunter like Brandon would know, this is not the time, but there's always squirrels. Squirrels are always in the woods. Now, there might not have been hunting seasons back in those days. Today, we have seasons. This is when fall, squirrel season opens. This is when summer squirrel season opens here in Kentucky. But Hobart said, because he's trying to make this story be as dramatic as possible. So he said, so he goes, he's got his rifle. He's in the woods. And this is not the time when you'll normally see any squirrels. And so God tells him that whatever he says will come to pass. So this

is the gift of faith operating. You can just say whatever you want to say. And it will come to pass. And so what William Brandham said is, I want three squirrels to come out on that limb. And I want to hit each one of them with the first shot, plunk, plunk, plunk.

I think is what Dr. Freeman says. And then Dr. Freeman says, and with a rifle, and now if any of you know, that's really hard to do. No, that is easy to do. That's the way most people go squirrel. Now, you can shoot them with a 20 gauge shotgun, but a lot of people love to go to the squirrel woods with a rifle. So Hobart telling the story is very telling to me as a lifelong hunter. I can tell he doesn't have a clue what he's talking about. But anyway, here comes three squirrels out on the limb and plunk, plunk, plunk. He gets all three. And so this

is Hobart's background to gifts of the spirit. This is a way gifts of the spirit are supposed to operate. This is a way God speaks to people. This is a way, you know, the gift of faith operates, you know, in this bizarre way for a man who, I think William Brandham probably was an experienced hunter. I don't know if he wasn't, you can contradict me here in a minute, John. But you don't, I mean, you don't need God to tell you and you don't need any help killing squirrels. You just go out and go squirrel hunting. You know, it's not the gifts that we see in the Bible that are

for the church's benefit and that are to actually help people. So I don't know. It's just totally amazing to me and looking back that in the adult male, a seminary professor with an earned doctor.

re-enttheology fell for stuff like this. It simply amazes me. I don't know if you've ever been squirrel hunting, but there's a point in time when you're sitting there waiting for the squirrel, and yes, you do hunt it with a rifle, you can't hit the dang things with a pistol unless they're really close to you, but you're sitting there and you're waiting and you're seeing nothing, because those things sit on the other side of the tree, and so you're sitting there hoping that they don't notice you, and you may sit there, and there comes a point when you say,

okay, I'm gonna give it like 10 more seconds, and then I'm gonna get out of here, and you count the 10, and then you say, well, I'm gonna give it another 10, and those like me who are impatient, you just can't sit there forever, it's boring, right?

I have a strong suspicion that he was the boring type of person, he liked the big game hunt where he would go out and pay an excursion team, and they would take him, and you can find photos of him doing this, though, they're taking these jeeps, and they say, all right, right there's a whole herd, you can't miss, and he's getting these big game, right?

Well, he goes squirrel hunting, and what's funny about it is the story grows over time. He tells the story, and like anybody he's sitting there, and he says, oh, Lord, I can't find a squirrel today, please have a squirrel show up for me, and maybe one showed, maybe one didn't, I don't know, I've made the same prayer when I was out hunting, because you're sitting there just waiting forever, but the funny part is he embellished the story and it kind of grew over time, and oddly, it grew into the word of faith movement.

If you really trace the roots of this, he's saying, I can speak squirrels into existence, and he tells the whole movement, well now everybody's, well, we should all speak, what can we speak next, and they start doing it, and then Hobart embellishes it even further, and the things that you say are just crazy, I'm sitting here, we have pair trees out in my front yard, and the squirrel's just demolished the pairs by the time the crop is ready, so I would give anything to find a place where there isn't a squirrel year round.

There isn't, I've lived from coast to coast, there really isn't a place like this, but if it exists, that's where I'll plant my pair trees.

Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started, or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism, transition through the latter rain, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new Apostolic Reformation? You can learn this and more on William Brandham Historical Research's website, William-Brandham.org.

On the book's page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.

You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top.

And as always, be sure to... Like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching. On behalf of William Brannem Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.

We need to listen, John, to stories with discernment, right? When I was 17, I'm not listening with any discernment, I don't possess any discernment yet. I'm just fast and aided with it. I'm trying to learn the Bible.

I want to know what God's Word said, and so I see one of the gifts of the Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12 as a gift of faith. Well, what is that? Oh, well, here's what it is.

You can just name it and claim it. If you want three squirrels to come out and just do it, I don't know that I ever tried it. I'm sure if I did, it didn't work because that's not how you use the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

That's not what they're for. And anyway, I was an experienced squirrel hunter. I normally didn't sit, John. I'd walk. I'd love to walk through the woods. And if you can find a good Shagbar Kickery tree, that's where you hunt in the fall because they're going to be up on the top, cutting those nuts, and you're sitting underneath the tree.

And literally, the pieces are falling down like rain all around you. And because there's still a lot of leaves on the trees when they're cutting those hickory nuts, you've got to be patient until you can get a sight of them.

But speaking of when they're on the other side of the tree, when they go on the other side of the tree, I just had several limbs or rocks or something beside me, and I would pitch them over on their side of the tree.

And that was scared of the squirrel to come around on my side of the tree, and they were easy picking. But in listening to that, yeah, I know it's just amazing. How did someone, it tells me a lot about Hobart Freeman.

There was something not right about the man. We've already kind of documented that regarding healing and money. He was very poor and he was very sick and afflicted. So that's why he desperately needed to believe the word of faith movement.

I mean, he desperately needed it and held on to his belief to the day he died. And what have we seen in earlier podcasts? He was not healed of a single solitary thing that he had claimed, confessed, professed for years, for 18 years he had professed.

And he was not healed of a single thing. There's something else in the man's mind, though, when you consider the level of education that he had to fall so quickly for stuff like this, I mean, I had to give myself some latitude.

I was 17 years old when I heard these stories, and I'm not listening to these stories delivered from a hillbilly, from Berksville, Kentucky, I'm listening to these stories delivered from someone with an earned doctor's degree in theology that you would, as a 17-year-old think, surely this man knows.

what he's talking about. And I think that was such a cell for Dr. Freeman's ministry to not have been a hillbilly, to have this education and then still to believe all the hillbilly stories because you're saying, wow, with this guy who has all of this training believes this, then surely there must be something to it.

And that's what was attracted to me because what Hobart was coming along doing, he was saying, you have been raised in your denominational churches, hearing what God is not doing anymore. I'm here to tell you what God is doing.

He's healing the sick, he's raising the dead, he's opening blind eyes and he's bringing three squirrels out on a limb for your hunting pleasures. This is what God is doing today. So that was very appealing.

And I guess I probably would think John, I have the feel that people in our audience are maybe sometimes hearing us say, what God is not doing today. And I don't mean to come across with what God is not doing but I surely don't want to tell people God is doing something when he isn't.

I don't want to say he's raising the dead left and right and people are turning water into wine like the people down in Indonesia claim they were and Mel Tari's book like a mighty win.

When I don't think those things are happening at all, it's just not been verified. If there is a resurrection of the dead, it's probably an occasional thing. It's not something that every Tom Dick and Harry can just go do.

And yet that's the way it is being presented today. And so this business, the personal prophecy, I can even share some more of how it affected me. And the church that I was in, I was in Memphis, Tennessee when Hobart first, I first heard of Hobart.

He came there in the spring of 1976. And then we just happened, my little band of fellow teenage charismatic former Presbyterian church member believers, we were just, we just happened to find a church there in Memphis.

It was on Sweeney Road, sat right beside Memphis International Airport. And it was pastored by a man. I don't think he's even alive anymore. Pastored by a man named Ken Hall. So, and maybe we will talk in the future when we can have time to talk about the ministers that came out of faith assembly, the satellite outreaches that church had and then what happened post Dr. Freeman's death.

But this was somewhat of a satellite church. I would put satellite in quotation marks because he did not carry Dr. Freeman's. tapes on his table in the back of the church or anything like that. But he was a pastor there.

If I remember correctly, he had at least a master's degree from a Southern Baptist seminary, I think down in New Orleans, a Baptist seminarian, Louisiana. Poor guy couldn't teach a lick.

He would go to passage in the Bible that were miracle stories. He loved to talk about David in the mulberry trees. When you hear the rustling in the mulberry trees, the Lord is with you.

And you know, we're trying to figure out, yeah, that's a wonderful biblical story and miraculous biblical story. But how do I fit that into my life? You know, what does that mean? So you're literally thinking, do I need to hear? I don't, first of all, I don't have any mulberry trees in my yard.

But secondly, am I supposed to listen to the rustling in any leaves? I don't even know why you would continue to teach on that because he wasn't trying to show a miraculous thing that happened in the life of David. He's trying, you know, to teach us that we need to have miracles in our life.

And so the reason I bring this man in his church up is because he had, I'll never forget, two particular ministers come to his church. And I was a member of that church at that time. I was probably 18 or maybe 19 years old. One man's name was Roger Teal. He was a prophet from England.

And I've never been able to discover any other things about Roger Teal since then. But the other person is someone you can easily go online. I don't think he's alive anymore and read all about him.

His name was Stanley Rankin, R-A-N-K-I-N. And he was a prophet. Both of these are prophets, you know, personal prophecy. Remember, he was a prophet from San Antonio, Texas. And what both of these men did in a satellite faith assembly influence, Hobart Freeman influence church.

What both of these men would do is they didn't teach, they didn't preach because they're prophets. And what do prophets do? Profits don't teach, they don't preach, not according to them anyway. They prophesy. So a long line would form up in the front of the church and you would go through Roger Teal, then Stanley Rankin, at another date. They were not connected at all, would lay hands on your head and prophesy and do what and give you a personal prophecy.

What they always said is a word from the Lord. And so the minister Ken Hall, who was the pastor of this church, he would advertise on Christian radio. There's a Christian radio station out in Collier'sville because I believe the manager of that Christian radio station, he and his wife or members of Ken Hall's church here in Memphis.

So you put out all this advertisement and our little church, which was really small. I mean, it was less than, I don't know, 40 people, maybe less than 30 people. Our little church would swell because of this advertisement.

So you've got people from all kinds of, you know, assembly of God churches, people that would normally go to your full gospel business men's fellowship and international meetings. They would see, oh, Prophet Stanley Rankin from San Antonio is going to be at this church.

So you're the population inside the four church walls would swell and all of these people are there to stand in line and to get a word from the Lord. And I went through the line myself.

I don't remember being in Stanley's line, but I probably was, but I remember being in Roger Teal, he was this tall skinny. He reminds me in thinking back of, of Ikebaud Crane in the headless horsemen.

He just reminds me of that kind of, he was then over long crooked nose, tall, slender fellow, but he was a British prophet. So he laid hands on it. And I don't remember all of what he said to me.

I remember some of it. The reason I'm mentioning this is I think these things, John, probably still occur today.

And they can influence you if you don't watch out, not only then in the decisions you make in your life, but sometimes these little, these little episodes can influence you for the rest of your life.

And it's not the way it should be. We should have our Bible in our hands. We should be sitting before ministers who are teaching us exegetically, they're expounding expositionally on what God's word says, with the author meant, with the original recipients, how they took the message, that's the meaning of the text, whatever the author meant, and whatever the original recipients understood it to mean, that's the meaning, that's never the meaning today.

The meaning is something personal for us. And so I look at Hobart influenced by Anna Schrader, prophesying to him. He goes on to give personal prophecies to others. That tells everyone that this is okay.

So then I'm a part of a church who has a minister who's influenced by Hobart, who invites in to prophets who don't teach or preach, but who run people like a herd of cattle through a personal prophecy line, and then we all receive these personal prophecies, and then what are we supposed to do with these words that we have received?

You know, usually, Usually I focus on the minister during the podcast because they're usually the one who is manipulating the crowd and that is the case with personal prophecy, but I want to focus a bit on the people because there's another issue here that not many people think about and that is the people who get involved with this kind of thing, these personal prophecies, there is a concept and business called monopoly and years ago there used to be one phone company and as the rates increased increased increased, eventually the government stepped in and said, okay, you need to print the competition to keep prices low. We all need the telephone, right? So there is this situation where you have to have business enterprises that are in competition to keep everybody happy, but the government tries to separate itself from religion and in religion, it's kind of weird because the types of people that get so caught up in this and go continuously to hear their personal prophecies

are the same types of people that would also go continuously to the fortune teller down the street and see what the crystal ball says about their future. They get so caught up and is my business going to succeed? Is my marriage going to succeed? Will this boyfriend work out or should I ditch him and go to this other boyfriend? And they get so caught up in it that their mind is more focused on the unknown future than it is the Bible.

And at the same time, the ministers are telling them, you're not allowed to go to that fortune teller, that fortune teller is bringing Satan into your mind and your body, your soul. They rob your souls, come to our fortune telling instead. That's really what they're doing because these personal prophecies, yes, there are some that are probably not fortune telling, but I would say the vast majority of them are people who are coming because they want to know their future.

And what good fortune teller who is standing behind a pulpit and talks you in private is not going to tell you your future if that's what they paid to come see. So they end up doing it. And here's the problem. None of them are prophets. So what they say fails, they picked the wrong card or they their crystal ball was just a little bit smoky when they were up there and it fails.

So what happens is the person comes back, that prophecy wasn't right. Oh, but sister, you have sin in your life, don't you? You did the wrong thing and God took it back. They will do whatever it takes to reinterpret the meaning of whatever it was that they said that they pulled straight out of their butt. I've used that phrase too much now, I think straight out of their butt, but that's really what these people are doing. And they're calling it God.

So whenever I hear these personal prophecies, I think about the minister, but I also think about the people because I was in the same movement and I never wanted to know my future. I felt like if I knew my future and I'd read enough science fiction books to know that that's a bad idea. But if you know your future, you're going to make decisions that you wouldn't otherwise make to try to enhance or avoid some of that future.

So it changes your life leading up to that future and it can destroy your life. And time and time again, you read books or watch movies about this. So I never wanted it, but I had friends who did.

And now you can listen to our stories, podcasts that I do, the series on Friday. You can hear a person after person after person with personal prophecies that failed. And the minister just put it back on the shoulders and said, this is your fault.

And we can end right there. You stole every bit of my thunder, but I love it. And I was going to say, John, it's some ministers fault for being the clowns on stage. And it's our fault.

It's a people's fault for wanting to submit to this, to participate in it. Again, I was 18 or 19 years old. And you just don't have the critical thinking skills. Then my minister was not that good of a minister, Ken Hall.

But I couldn't move to Indiana. So I knew he had gotten the message, quote unquote, from Hobart, so second hand, good enough for me. But yeah, I would never go through any line for a personal prophecy now.

But yeah, I went right up to the line. Uncertain, you know, you know enough about the Bible to know, I don't see any of these kinds of situations in the Bible. You know, I don't see prayer lines.

Number one, where you just line up and the minister slaps his sweaty hand on your sweaty forehead. But even worse than that, I don't see people lining up for personal prophecy. It's just not in the Bible.

But you just don't think. You just go ahead and participate in it. But yes, what I was going to say is just what you said, the reason that the membership in the church would swell when these people would come is people are seeking not knowledge of the Bible.

They're seeking a word from a fortune teller. Absolutely. There is no difference. None except one calls himself a minister and the other calls herself a medium. But there is no difference. You are trying to predict something about this person.

So there is no difference. In my mind, in going to a fortune teller, going to have your tarot cards read, going to some little smoky, dark rooms place where someone's going to read a crystal ball for you.

And these clowns on stage will oblige the people who are coming through the line. It is, so it does remind me of what Jesus said, not in this context. But when he said, it is the bull.

find who are leaders of the blind. And I'm sure, even though I'm not immersed in NAR at all, I know very little about it because I have no interest in that. I would much rather study serious biblical literature and the Bible itself than be a part of that, but I'm sure that this is a big deal still out there today where you go for personal prophecy and direction for your life is given.

Advice is followed. Oftentimes with disastrous results. I mean, you can make life altering decisions through personal prophecy. And it's not always a minister, you know, I've seen and heard of too many cases where some brother or some sister in the body the Lord's given them a word for you.

And they'll say, I mean, it's always baptized in this terminology. The Lord has given me a word for you. Do you want to receive it? And as I said earlier in this podcast, who would say, no, I don't want any word from God.

I don't want to hear from God. I reject all words from God. No, no one would say that. So they've already couched it in such a way. What are you supposed to say? You know, no, I don't want to hear from God.

So the person says, yes. I mean, what you should say is, look, I don't trust you as having a word from God and I'll listen to the Lord myself. So no, thank you. I will pass on that word from the Lord.

Look at, according to what has been published and it's all over the internet, what happened with the fall of Mike Bickel and the Kansas City situation there. According to what I have heard, I'm not privy to any of this information firsthand, but the women that Mike Bickel allegedly prayed on, they have come out and done their own interviews and Mike Bickel, and this is just standard fair, John, just as just run of the mill, this is the way you do it.

He would have a word, and so I think a word to one of these women was, the Lord has shown me that my wife, I believe his wife's name is Diane, and this is all public knowledge.

It's on other YouTube videos. The Lord has shown me that my wife, Diane, is gonna die and you are gonna be my new wife. You know what? Well, what woman probably half Diane's age, what young woman would not want to hear that if you're a part of this intercessory prayer movement that's gonna reshape and redefine the whole globe.

Mike Bickel is at the head of that- at and you will get to be Mike Bickel's wife who wouldn't want to hear that. Now that's an extreme example for sure, but still that is an example of how these people will manipulate and you're so right, John, once a word has been given, then the person for the next few weeks, months, maybe years tries to figure out what they need to do to make that come to pass or why it simply failed and it didn't come to pass.

And then you are also exactly right. If you ever go back to the minister, well, I didn't tell you that it had 17 conditions on it here. I just gave you the word and here are the 17 conditions.

He waits to see whether it ever happens. And sometimes a word is kind of vague. You know, it's kind of like going to panda express and getting a fortune cookie and cracking it open and reading the little thing.

It says probably one day next week, something good will happen to you. Well, it probably will. Or it might say something bad will happen and that will probably happen too because that's just the way life is.

Some weeks have some good things and some bad things. It's no different than that. It's no different than reading something from a fortune cookie. And I would just caution people, not caution them, just tell them flat out, throw all of that stuff away.

Every single bit of that is garbage. Don't go get personal prophecies from anyone and don't give personal prophecies to anyone. Just read your own Bible and point other people to the Bible. I was thinking as you were talking, I used to go out to eat with this guy and we'd go to Chinese restaurant and he'd open up his fortune cookie and he'd always make a joke.

And his funniest one, I think, was he said, made the flies of a thousand cattle and fast your armpits. We went to this one Chinese restaurant and I opened up my fortune and I kid you not.

It said, you are going to have a really bad day and it was the worst day. When I left there, from the moment I left that restaurant, for the whole rest of the day, every single thing that I touched went wrong, everything that I did went wrong and I've thought about that over the years.

The fortune teller, the fortune cookie that I got is more accurate than most of these people who are fortune telling from behind a pulpit. And I got it. It didn't cost me but $7.

It was a lunch rate fee to Chinese restaurant. If you want something that's more accurate, you might go to the Chinese restaurant and get a fortune cookie. But these guys that are using it for manipulation, like you mentioned, the example.

There are other people and you listen to the story on Fridays you can hear person after person after person, they're all saying the same thing. They're either falling into depression after all of this comes to pass that they realize that the guy on the stage was just manipulating them.

Nothing that they said was real and it suddenly hit me. Oh my gosh, none of this is real. They lose their faith. They have... maybe they were given a quote unquote word of the Lord that told them to go invest or told them to do this that or the other and they suddenly found themselves in financial hardships broken relationships. I will say this the moment any minister I don't care who it is what they're talking about the moment they get into a relationship between a young man and a young woman they have crossed a boundary into I will never set foot in that church again and I've always been

that way if you do that you are so wrong but there are people who will do that and they'll get with the wrong person and suddenly the course of their entire life has been ruined just because one guy wanted a little bit more money in his pocket so in the end this is a harmful thing this is not a good thing and I think that if you want if you want fortune telling you probably instead need to get counseling and get out of that mindset because none of it works even the fortune cookie that I mentioned it's not a good thing so thank

you so much for doing this thanks for having me John if you've enjoyed a show and you want more information you can check us out on the web you can find us at William-Brandom.org for more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR available on Amazon, Kindle and Audible