The NAR Revolving Door: How Re-Victimization Happens

Music Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Brannum Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Brannum Historical Research at William-Brannum.org, and with me I have my co-host and friend, Pia Hugo, former member of the New Apostolic Reformation. Pia, it's good to be back.

The audience won't know this, but you were off a week down with the flu, and I got the shingles vaccine, and it kicked my butt. But now I'm back, and I kind of have my voice back. I know that you're getting your voice back, and with the topic we're going to get in today, I know it's your story, but woven through your story is the theme that I've been really wanting to talk about anyway, which is re-victimization.

You get into one of these movements, and you realize something's wrong, you kind of leave for a while, and then you go to something that's just like it. And then you leave for a while, sometimes you go to a third one or a fourth one or fifth one. I've talked to so many people that that is the case, and it's so hard because your frame of reference of what is Christianity and what is the Bible is just so skewed that you try to plug into something that's normal, and you can't really do it.

You got to plug into something that's abnormal, and not calling you abnormal by no means, but let's talk about your story of re-victimization. Yes, let's do that. So hello, John. I know it is afternoon over there, but it is early in the morning here. It is 615 AM, and the sun is just about to come out behind me.

I think I've mentioned it before. The ocean is right there, and instead of being at the beach, I'm here with you, John. That's how much I value our time together. I'm always excited to be here. I'm very happy that it seems like your viewers seem to be getting something from our times together, and I'm looking forward to today.

Just to echo what you're saying sometimes, even when we leave a very toxic religious environment, like the North Church that I was a part of, Harvest Rock Church in Pasadena, California, back in the 1990s, where I'm going to...

today is I actually found myself in another North Church from 2020 to 2024 and I would say that there was there was some revictimization that occurred although I think by this time I was a little wiser a little older I was in my 20s when I was in my first North Church and this last North Church I was in my 50s so I I will get to that but first let's just go back to where I left off from the last podcast since it was two weeks ago so I'm gonna remind your audience and I'm

also gonna remind you John where we were I think the last podcast I called it my seven years of wandering so I got kicked out of that church Harvest Rock Church led by my former pastor and former brother-in-law Cheon back in 1996 so I didn't voluntarily leave you need to understand that John I was in an unhealthy environment but I didn't want to leave when you are part of a cult usually you don't know that you're part of a cult and you just keep drinking the Kool-Aid so I got kicked out in voluntarily because I was in an abusive marriage and I had the audacity to get a divorce

which was a big no-no and I basically was kicked out by by by Che and and I found myself churchless so I found another church not too far from where I lived at that time in Los Angeles and I stayed there for 20 years and as it turns out it it was the best thing that could have happened I really feel God led me to that church because it was more word-based it was evangelical

I got to fellowship with normal people John we were kind of laughing about normal versus abnormal people earlier and what do I mean by normal normal Christians Christians who didn't have a dream every other day who didn't have visions who didn't have visitations from angels in Elijah and David and You know, Peter, there are just normal Christians who had normal jobs, and I realize that I like that environment.

It definitely took off the pressure of having to always be like super spiritual, you know. Like if you didn't have a story where you didn't lay hands on someone and they got healed, hallelujah, or you didn't have a dream, you know, that was prophetic, and God spoke to you, and you didn't have a prophetic word, you would feel out of place in a North church, you know, because that was normal for us, and you know, I was recently watching a video and these young Christians who graduated from Bethel, you know, the school is supernatural.

They were talking about how they would, I guess put a coin against that wall, and they would just pray, and if the coin actually got stuck on the wall, that was a miracle, you know, until one of the students realized, you know what, it actually really does stay because of physics.

There's some scientific explanation for why when you put a coin against the wall, it actually does stick for a while, and there's nothing miraculous about that. It's just nonsense. When you step away from that, as you said, the light bulb comes on and you realize, okay, it's time to live a normal life, so I would say I was in that very healthy, very normal church for 20 years, and that includes my seven years of wandering, you know, it's easy, you know, in a church, it was rather large, I'm going to say 3000 members, so the advantage of a large church, John, is that you can go in,

and you can go out without having to talk to anyone, and that was me for about seven years. I would still go to church, like I said before, for really the sake of my kids, I felt I needed to give them some kind of spiritual foundation, but it wasn't until 2004 that I had a powerful encounter, and when I say that, I know that almost sounds noir, like I had a powerful encounter with Jesus yesterday, that's the problem when you hype everything up, when it actually happens, are people even going to believe you? So you're just going to have to take my word for it, John. It really

was the most powerful moment of my life. Back in 2004, it was just me and God in a forest. And I truly felt God met me there. And it was a very simple question that he asked me, like, are you tired of wandering?

Are you tired of running away from me basically? And I was, I really was. So it was like a prodigal daughter, father moment. I will never forget that. So anyway, 2004, I am back on track.

And if you know anything about me, John, I never do anything half-heartedly. Like, once I was back with God, I just dove right back into ministry. So I volunteered to be the Christian Club advisor at my high school.

By now, I am a high school teacher. And so I was involved with youth ministry. And on the weekends, we would go to downtown Los Angeles. We would feed the homeless. And this was in collaboration with my church.

So I had a homeless ministry for about 10 years. And it was great. Because we kept our evangelistic style very simple.

It was just friendship, evangelism, talking to people, down there. And if they were ready, we had this conversation before. Like, sometimes it's tiny. And there was like, there was a guy named LaSelle and he and I kind of struck a friendship.

And it took a year of every weekend talking to him a little bit.

He would let me pray for him, but he was mad at God because he had a very hard life. But after a year, I just felt that it was the right time. And I asked him, do you want to accept Jesus back into your heart?

Like I did back in 04. And he said, yes. And I had the privilege of seeing him water baptize that my church and he was no longer homeless. He went back to his home.

So not all of the stories were success stories. But we do what we can. We plant seeds when we can. So for me, I kind of settled into a really nice rhythm

of working full-time as a high school teacher. Um, and then doing ministry work on the weekends, um, and then, and then something happened, John. And I think it's because I started going to NAR conferences.

I apologize to the audience. I'm still kind of stuck because you mentioned that you were 50 and you're pointing that to the past. So my frame of reference, suddenly I thought I was in this strange back to the future episode or something, this doesn't make sense.

But, you know, one thing you said, you're talking about holding the coin up against the wall. We believe the weirdest things are minds. And I think the leaders knew this because they by design want you to shut off your critical thinking.

And when you do this, you can do all kinds of weird stuff. I've mentioned this before on the podcast and my family is going to kill me because I'll give away the family secret.

But we went to a gathering of sorts of people who had left the brand. I'm called not long after we left. And I was telling them that my son was black magic. And everybody gathers around like, oh, my gosh, really?

And they really believe this. Like there was no, they had just freshly escaped. There was no critical thinking in some of those faces. Some of them did, I'll admit that, but there were those that like really.

And he walks up and he says, I said, pick any object in here. Tell him to go over there. They can't see the object. And he'll tell you exactly what you chose. And he went and locked himself in a room.

And they told me what it was. I called him. He comes back out and they're watching. I say, is it the ball? Is it the desk, you know, all of these things? And then I got to their object.

That's it, dad. That's it. And the secret is it's black magic. I go through and I point to things and say, is it this? Is it this? Well, the thing right before the object that's theirs, I choose something black.

And so he knows when he sees the black thing. That's the guess of course, it's just a, it's a prank. But people, there are people who are gullible, but there are also people who shut off critical thinking and they'll believe anything.

I had a, when I was in the group, I had this, this trick that I'd do to people. I would tell them, I'd hold out a piece of paper and I'd put a quarter down and I'd take a pencil and draw around the quarter, real, real thick, drawing around the quarter and I'd draw five of them and I'd say, now I want you to roll that off of your nose and hit, try to hit the center one and you won't believe this, but I have enough faith.

I can push it the other way. And so I had people, they'd come and they'd try to do it. They'd roll it off their nose. Well, when they did, the graphite was rolling off on their nose.

And so they would have a black nose and they'd walk around on the black nose. And it's just, you know, crazy tricks, but people who are in that mindset, they fall for the weirdest things and you pick up on that.

Well, once you leave, if you're not careful, and you don't get out of that mindset, you'll fall for something else just like it. And I know I'm mentioning these absurd examples, but some of the things that you go to, like I had one lady that they were telling her that the reason she was sick is because she had some kind of witch and her family heritage or some weird thing like this and I'm, how do you fall for that stuff?

What's because you're falling for things because there is no critical thinking. Absolutely. And that's why I surprised myself, John, because by now, you know, I'm teaching history, I'm teaching economics, I mean, I am using my critical thinking skills every day.

And yet, when a friend invited me to a conference in North Carolina, well, South Carolina, really, Fort Mill, South Carolina, that's where Morningstar Ministries is with Rick Joyner. And she knew I was a Rick Joyner fan.

I told you, I read almost all his books. So I picked up that book again that I had not read in years, you know, the final quest. And it hooked me right back. And I guess I always had a fascination for the mystics.

You know, like you call it magic, nor calls it mystics, maybe it's one of the same. I don't know, but there's just something about the unexplainable, right?

And Rick Joyner has many stories about visitations from heaven and all of that. So I told my friend, sure, why not? Let me fly over there, spend a couple of, you know, thousand dollars and visit you.

And it hooked me right back. And unfortunately, it did not stop there.

There was also the time when I visited Heidi Baker. Are you familiar with Heidi Baker? I am. Now, let me tell you why I liked Heidi Baker, not just because she worked miracles in Mozambique where she was spaced as a missionary.

She loved kids. That was her ministry. And I watched a video of her surrounded by these, you know, these kids in Mozambique. And I had spent time in South Africa as a part-time missionary myself.

And I was hooked. I mean, this is why we have a school right here. I'm sitting in my principal's office. We built a school here in the Philippines because I've always loved kids. So there were so...

about Heidi Baker. So I wanted to see her in person and she was at a prophetic conference in Nashville, Tennessee. So again, you know, I'm giving you these examples because that's how NAR brainwashed I was that I would spend good money to fly all the way to these places.

So I went to Nashville, Tennessee and the pastor over there who was sponsoring Heidi Baker. His name was Jeff Jansen. I'm pretty sure you've never heard of him. He's one of these minor prophets. I'm going to call him that. You did a video. You probably've done more than one, but I've watched one of your videos about minor prophets. They're the ones in the middle tier, right? So you've got the demigods and the top tier who are almost untouchable, unreachable, good luck finding an appointment to see them. Then you've got the middle tier. They're a little

more approachable. They're the ones you can actually go up to them after a conference and you can actually have a conversation with them. And then you've got the lower tier, the leaders down here, the rank and file members and leaders. So I would say Jeff Jansen would be a minor prophet, but he does have a book. I think it's called Glory, which I read, which I found on his book table.

I decided I'm going to find out about this guy. Well, he has a fantastic story. He said he was in two places at once. Talk about fantastic stories. And would you believe this intelligent person with critical thinking skills? I actually said, huh? Could it be? Could it be true that this guy was in two places all at once? And he said that the day is coming in the last days when if you have enough faith, you too can be in two places at once. And I was reading that book like, whoa, I wonder. He also got me curious. And guess what? Guess what happened to Jeff Jansen?

In 20, because I looked him up just for this podcast. I did a little research. I'm like, I wonder what happened to Jeff Jansen. And let me check my nose. I don't want to give you anything false. So Jeff Jansen in 2021, he told his wife, I'm going to leave you and divorce you because I need to pursue my own desires, which even his wife was like, your own desires, like whatever happened to, till death that we part, you know?

Like, are you forgetting your pastor? You can't just divorce me because you wanna pursue your own desires. And then here's the mysterious thing. The next year, 2022, he died unexpectedly. And I scoured the internet.

There is no record of why he died. Go figure, very mysterious. But here's what happened after his death. All of a sudden, because now the person's dead, all these former associates, former leaders, his former wife, all came out and said, it was all fake, it was all false.

None of his prophecies were true. It wasn't true that he was in two places. He made us lie for him, blah, blah, blah. Like, oh my goodness, there you go. There you go, another one bites the dust, right?

You know, I had this conversation, it might have been with you, might have been somebody else, but it's weird because you watch a movie and you watch the ministers that they portray in the movies that are scoundrels.

And you look at what they do and you think, well, that person, they're lying through their teeth, they're just scamming the people. I saw some of those same movies while I was in the movement.

And I looked at it and I laughed at the guys thinking that they're just scamming the people, all while being scammed. And I'm, it's really weird. Whenever it's happening to you, you can't sense it.

But the problem is this, you've mentioned some names and some absurd things that the people are doing in these movements. What happens is this, whenever there is a scandal, there's abuse, there's some wild thing that happens.

Like in that church, I can picture many of those people who would say, well, this church is unhealthy. Look what they did to me. This guy's a false prophet. But they leave the church thinking the church is unhealthy.

They're not critically thinking. So they're not thinking about the structures of doctrine that enabled the unhealthy. And so they don't leave the system. You and I have been talking about the system. They are plugged into the system themselves and they become a cog in this wheel that just keeps spinning and helping to support the system because they're giving their ties, donations, offerings, et cetera.

So they become a minor part of the system. They're not nearly to the minor prophets or the major God prophets, but they're part of it and they can't really see what is happening to them.

That's the sad part, the sadder part. And I'm saying this very graciously because it's hard to tell who is purposefully scamming the people and who is in this category. People who are in the system like that, who believe it, hook, line, and sinker, they get so caught up in it that some of them I'd actually rise to become some sort of a respected figure.

Maybe not a, maybe not a super god apostle by no means, but they will harm other people, not knowing that they're harming them because they're in the system and the system is doing the harm, not them.

So it's really hard to discern, like you mentioned Heidi Baker, I don't know her, I've studied to some extent. I don't know enough to know, is this a person who just got caught up in the system?

I am one of these people I love working with kids. I love kids, I love children. And it's hard to picture somebody who loves children to do something that is malicious. So I give people the better benefit of the doubt.

They got caught up in the system and the system is causing them to do bad things. And then there's some who totally take advantage of the system. And the last example I'm gonna bring up is somebody that almost everyone in the charismatic world is familiar with.

It's hard Bentley. John McKinnon and others with links to the paper, audio and digital versions of each book. You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.

If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top. And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching.

On behalf of William Brannum Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support. It was July 2008. I went to a Todd Bentley conference. Oh no. I'm almost embarrassed to admit it. But remember, I came back to the Lord in 2004.

Four years later, I am just hungry, right? I'm just hungry for God. I've been away from the charismatic world. I'm going to an evangelical church, right? Where for all practical purposes, it was non-charismatic, right?

Which nothing wrong with that. But I have charisma in my blood right by now,

because I had not yet detoxed. So I may have left the system physically, but theologically, like you said, in here, it was still mixed in there in my brain. being my brain cells. The juice, the cuckoo-lead juice was still mixing in there.

So somehow, I was missing the goose bumps, I was missing the hyper preaching, you know, the fantastical story. So that's when I started going back to these conferences. So there's this guy we all heard about in Lakeland, Florida, you know, and he was a healer.

He raised the dead, apparently. And so he found himself, July 2008, this was after that infamous commissioning. I don't know if you saw that, where all the cast of characters were there. Bill Johnson, Cheon, Lou Angle, Rick Joyner, like they were all there, Jim Gull, and they were commissioning the great Todd Bentley, right?

And I'm gonna quote Che here. He said that he had a high degree of trust and appreciation for Todd Bentley's ministry. And he fully supported him as the leader of this new major spiritual awakening.

This is the guy we've been waiting for. And he would be the one to lead us to the great revival that we had all been praying and fasting for. So now remember, I moved to California in the 1990s to be part of the great revival.

So I'm still, I was still waiting for it, Cheon. Like this is it, this is it is coming to California. Maybe he's going to, you know, pass on the torch, you know, whatever. So here comes Todd Bentley and I had to stand in line.

Let me tell you, it was called the Gallant Center. It's part of USC. It's their indoor sports arena. 10,200 seats, almost all filled up that day.

And I sat way up in the bleachers. Because I came a little late. So I was up in the bleachers and Cheon and all of them guys, they were all down there on, you know, the stage and there was Todd Bentley.

So I don't know, like I don't know what I expected of the guy, but they all did a great job of raising our hopes and making us excited. And then one month later, August.

2008, that's when it came out he was having an affair with his staff member and it was found out that he had sexually assaulted, I think, a 15-year-old boy, like years before, like they never vetted him, like he, it was public records that he had a record, a public record of sexual assault and none of these guys bothered to check, right? And here's the thing, Rick Joyner took him in, I'm sure you know the story, Rick Joyner took him in, restored him, like rehabilitated him, I think it only took a year, like yes, he's all good now, you know,

and restored him, only for him to keep, you know, you talk about revictimization, it kept happening, he kept molesting and he kept cheating on this wife, this new wife, I think they're no longer together, this second wife, like it's awful, like Todd Bentley is one of the worst and yet I think somewhere in the world, he's still preaching, you know, so you would think, you would think John, like I've only mentioned three charlatans, right, Todd Bentley, Jeff Jensen, Rick Joyner, you know, you would think that after seeing all these men, you know, who have proven themselves to

be false, I would just wash my hands off the whole thing, but that's not what happened, because here's what happened in 2020. In 2020, the whole world shut down and my husband and I, you know, we were going to a different church by now, I actually got hired in this other church to be their assistant director for their children's ministry and they had a really good school for missions, because by now I was already thinking of retiring early and opening up our school here in the Philippines, so we went to another church where they had a good mission school and they also

hired me, like I said, to help with their children's ministry, so anyway, it was a really good church, very, very balanced, but we were, we were meeting online and like a lot of Christians, you know, you get tired of going to church online, so We found out that there was another church not too far, that that was still open, and it was in our church.

The overseers of that church were Cheon and Cindy Jacobs. Did that raise a red flag? No. Because again, I am still brainwashed, right? So my poor husband who had actually never been to a charismatic church.

We got married in 2007, and we had been to normal churches this whole time. And when I went to those nor conferences, he did not go with me. He always thought that they were kind of weird.

My husband is a firefighter. He's a fire engineer. He has a very analytical mind, and he uses critical thinking. He's like, well, honey, I love you, but I have no idea why you go for those guys' preachers. I'll stay home.

So I managed to convince him to give this narcher to try. I said, come on, let's just go one Sunday. And they weren't extreme. So I think that's what convinced him. I'll give my wife this special favor.

We'll stay for a few months. Well, the months dragged on two years because the leaders, it was a couple. My husband and wife, couple, and they were both pastors. They had both gone to Fuller Seminary, so they were both pastors.

And they considered themselves spiritual children of Luangal and Cindy Jacobs, which will probably be the next topic of our podcast, John. I really want to get into Cindy Jacobs and Luangal, because I have quite the history with them.

So again, that did not raise a red flag because at that time I was also a fan of Cindy Jacobs and Luangal. I was not a fan of Che on because of what he did to me.

But see, in my mind, I isolated Che on. I just thought, yep, he's fake. I know he is. But all these other guys, surely this is not something systemic. It's just a few bad eggs.

Anyway, they were a nice couple. Um, we got to know them and and they actually invited us so by now I'm in my 50s. Okay, John. So I'm now 60. So just so your audience knows.

Um, I stayed there for four years in my mid 50s. So during that time, I already had my critical thinking skills going. So they they made us home group leaders and we had all these young adults. They were like 20 some things early 30s.

And we realized how hungry they were John. That's what really kept us there as long as as we did because, um, my heart really went out to them. They were like sheep without a shepherd. And you know, so we would just teach from the Bible, you know, nothing fancy.

But I just I just had my heart broken over and over because these young people had real problems. You know, like there was one who was suicidal. There was one, you know, who had come from a childhood of severe abuse.

They had nowhere to go, John, because this couple, when you're, see, when you're a nor pastor, there are Sundays where you are not behind the pulpit. You know where you are? You are with all the other nor apostles and prophets. You're in Washington, DC because Lou Engel has another national rally that he's planning.

So they were always, you know, traveling, they would travel with the other apostles. Like, you know, again, if you're part of this nor world, you, you get used to that. You get used to the fact that those minor prophets, because that's how I would consider them minor prophets. You know, they were, they were kind of well known, definitely in, um, in Los Angeles.

And they were always being invited to join the major prophets, right, in their healing crusades and their national rallies. So there was really no one watching these young adults at home. And it reminded me of myself, you know, when I was in my 20s.

So we kind of stepped into that role of being spiritual parrots. I heard these two guys talking, I think it was on a podcast and they were talking about some of the horrific things that is happening with the apostles of the New Apostolic Reformation. It's widespread.

Wide spread, wide spread, sexual things happening and it's, it's terrible. And The way that they framed it, these two guys were talking theology and the way they framed it is, this is a terrible, terrible thing that they have done, but in this terrible thing there is some good because the people will now wake up and see that apostles have fallen because of this sexual thing that has happened.

I listen to that and I thought I don't really agree with that because it's not a good thing. The people who are in this type of movement, who have been trained what Christianity is the wrong way, even though this bad thing happened, they're going to blame the bad thing on the negative experience, not examining everything underneath.

This is one of those weird nights where I'm coming up with all of these weird examples, but I was scrolling through Facebook the other day. I don't get on Facebook like maybe once every six months and so they give you these videos to try to hook you.

Well, they hooked me because there was a guy in I think of South America who took a part of bicycle and he went and got a bunch of cardboard boxes and I don't know how long I miss it.

Must have taken this guy a year to do this, but he turned that bicycle and all of this cardboard into a Ferrari by putting and taping and painting and it looked like a Ferrari.

If you were to take somebody who had never seen a car before, which might have been people in this city he was in, they would say, is this a car? Well, it has a door.

Is it a car? Well, it has four wheels. I see four cardboard wheels. You could not convince these people because they don't know what it is. In the same way, somebody who's in this movement, you've been told that you have to have an apostle, you have to have an a prophet, you have to have spiritual covering, spiritual alignment, all of this stuff and you're not being really taught how different that is from what the Bible is talking about.

So when they leave, they might go to some group that doesn't have those terms. Maybe it's got spiritual father or kingdom leader, all of this apostolic team. There's different names that they use and because the names are different and they don't know what it is that they're supposed to be scared of, they'll go to it.

I have actually seen this in one of the experiences that I had. They didn't use any of those terms, but they were using authority in ways that the Bible didn't say to use it.

I'll just say it like that. I've also studied some of the guys who have done some horrific things in American history, and they're in churches that are usually non-denominational. I'll leave that as a side subject, but they're in churches that aren't using the same terms, but they have ministers that say, God gave me a message for you today this Sunday, and I'm going to give it to you.

That's just not the way that you're supposed to do it. Usually a minister will come out and say, I had a thought, and here's what the Bible says, and let's read what the Bible says.

And I always point back to you. Not something that me, the speaker is empowered by God to give you. It's more what the actual apostles gave us and what they wrote in the Bible.

So unless you come to terms with the fact that the entire structure of the system is wrong, you're going to get plugged into another system. It's that simple. Yeah, and so that was me plugged into another another cog, you know, got unplugged from that big one, but now I'm in a middle, you know, middle medium sized cog.

And we were there for four years, but I'm telling you almost every Sunday, my critical thinking skills were on full alert because having been two more word based churches now, having been trained, my ears being trained to listen to exogetical teachings, right?

Like clear biblical teachings, I could so easily see the contrast between those kinds of teachings and ones where it was all based on prophetic impressions on supernatural occurrences, like, oh, I went to Europe and I saw these miracles blah, blah, blah.

Which again, it seems like whenever there's miracles that they've, they've witnessed, it's always somewhere outside of America because you can't prove it, right? So, so this was, this was my dilemma, you know, now that I'm older, wiser, I'm using, you know, my brain more, I'm really starting to see how unhealthy this church is and I'm trying to help these young adults.

Now, let me say you were saying something earlier about how some people are just get sucked into it, maybe from a young age like me at 19 years old, I already got sucked into it.

I'm going to say this about the wife, who is also, you know, co-pastor with her husband, because to this day she is a dear friend, and so I, in case she sees this podcast, I want to make sure I don't believe she was, I believe she was ever a part of this dangerous toxic system we're talking about. She, she got married into this system very, very early on and got mentored by Cindy Jacobs and Lou Angle.

So, by the time, you know, she was in her 40s, she's now co-pasturing with her husband, but I think even she, started to see like I can't do this anymore because as it turns out her husband wasn't who he pretended to be. So fast forward 2024. So I'm going to wrap up this part of my life. In 2024, I came here to the Philippines. You know, we were doing our missions where I returned in September and my friend, the wife, the co-pastor. She was nowhere to be found, John. She was just gone. No one would tell me. That's the weirdest thing. Where's our

co-pastor? Oh, she's staking a sabbatical. Like sabbatical. Okay. But then the next Sunday she wasn't there again. Like how long is this sabbatical? Anyway, long story short, she left the church and her husband and filed for divorce. She was never going to come back. And here's the even weirder thing. Then I found out that the whole church board stepped down. The entire church board. So we did not have our co-pastor and we did not have a church board. So and no one would tell me what was going on. So, you know, because again, none of the rank and file members are ever

told the real story, right? So I'm like, I told my husband, I am going to get to the bottom of this. So I tracked down one of the board members who was a good friend. We knew each other from the 90s.

We were both under a harvest rock church with Jay on. So I knew her very well. And I got the story out of her. And so I was going to quote this. A former board member shared with me that they believed there had been some serious financial irregularities involving funds designated for the wife's ministry. Because the wife had her own ministry abroad. It was an anti-human trafficking ministry which she was overseeing. And some of the funds that were donated that were allocated for that ministry could not be accounted for. According to this board member, questions were raised with the senior pastor who was now her ex-husband. But the concerns were

never resolved to their satisfaction. And after that, after he left a lot of the young people who were on staff, they complained of spiritual manipulation. intimidation and extreme control by the senior pastor. So by the end of 2024, more than half of the church, including myself and my husband left. And I think now he's still preaching, he's still there. Of course, right? Because there's no accountability. Nobody, everything is, it's so hush hush. I mean, that that cover up culture drives me crazy, John, because it only allows the perpetrator to keep revictimizing others. That's what drives me crazy. So from what I hear,

he has a whole new set of victims. Young people, because there's always young people who don't know any better. And he's still spouting, you know, all these like nor theology, dominionism, end times eschatology, you know, you are the the Joel's army generation blah, blah, blah. And all these young people are are still going to his church. Even though his ex-wife will have nothing to do with him. And yeah, the former board members are also all out of the picture now. And mind you,

a very obvious question would be, what about Cheon and Cindy Jacobs? Don't they know what happened? What do you think, John? Do you think they know? I'm not going to answer that one, but I'll say this.

I had a person ask me one time, is the, do I think the new charismatic movement is dangerous? And that's a loaded question that I really must contain myself. I'll say it like this. There are aspects of it that show great potential for danger. And the biggest of which is even in the name, the people who are speaking and leading the movements have charisma. They have a lot of charisma.

And the movement has become such that if you don't have it, you're not spiritual. That's dangerous. In my opinion, that's dangerous because what happens is say something happens in the church implodes. It's it's a bad unhealthy church and they go somewhere else. Well, they think immediately because of the charisma, well, this new leader is he's kinder than the old one. And yet he may be on the surface, but they're not asking the right questions. Who is the one who can correct the leader if he goes wrong? Say he's kind now. Say he's generous and he meets all the qualifications of a

minister today. Well, what about tomorrow? What about next week, next year? Who's the guy who's going to come in and say, look man, you need to tone it down, you're becoming quite rude to the crowd. The people don't want that, they want the charisma instead because they feel like, and there are even, you can even read some of the statements by these guys, they try to frame it such that the charisma is because they're on fire with filled with the spirit of God and what's coming out of their mouth is God. And they're mistaking charisma for God. That's really where this turns into, anytime you do this, you have

created a new idol, you're worshiping the charisma, more to the point. So who corrects the leader? Well, what about financial transparency? Where do you go to see the books? We've talked about that, you and I, about Cheon and some of the others. Are the independent elders in the building? Are they really independent? Can they really approach the leader and say, look man, you just said this thing, but the Bible says this other thing, I prefer to believe the Bible and I think you should probably read it again. Which elder can do this in one of these churches? You can't because they worshiping

the charisma. The charisma has become the new God of the movement. Yeah. And I guess the next question there then would be like, how exactly do we dismantle this false idol? Right? So I heard this before, so it's not a region, it's not my region idea, but I would like to think of the nor system, like a like a tower of Jenga, not the tower of Bable, but the tower of Jenga. Have you played Jenga?

I have. And the funny part is you haven't heard the podcast yet, but I've recorded two where I use the same example. Okay, well, we're the same wavelength then. I was just thinking of this Jenga tower and with every false pastor or shepherd that gets exposed, there goes another block, right?

You know, there's the Todd Bentley out you go. There's this guy, you know, who was our last nor pastor. Okay, out you go. And as all these false apostles, false prophets keep getting exposed or having affairs, they're stealing from the church. And then you've got the false translations, right? Like, oh, don't read the passion translation, you know? So out goes Brian Simmons, out goes the passion translation. And then every false doctrine, every false, you know, theology that gets exposed and, you know, the Mike wingers, you know, and the other exposers, you know, they do deep dives. And pretty soon that Jenga tower is starting to teeter, right? That's how I see

it right now. Here in 2026, you know, we're all talking about it. Like, you cannot go into the internet and not see that this is what's happening in the charismatic world. It's teetering and I I'm just waiting for that one last block like what is it going to take right the last block like up look at this and Once it's out boom, you know, there it goes and

And that's that's why I'm doing this like I may not have the kind of influence to actually take out a whole Django block, but if I can help to take take out even one Through through your help John, you know through through the help of these exposure podcasts I I want to do my my small part because you may not want to use the word dangerous because You know, this is your podcast. I don't want you getting in trouble But for me, I I can say this personally for me It was a very dangerous system to be a part of I was I was in deep

It took a better part of my my my Christian walk I'm gonna say from the time I became a Christian through Jay and and Sue on who were my spiritual parents 1986 really all the way to 2024. So we're talking almost 40 years and I'm barely Crawling out myself, right? I'm I'm I'm I'm doing catch up. I'm read I'm reading as many articles as I can reading as many books as I can Watching as many of these videos and that's what I would recommend to any viewer out there Who's still deciding like is it all bad?

You know, is it really true that there are no apostles and prophets is it you know Is it true that spiritual gifts are for now and that I am going to take a stand on John Yeah, I told you once a charismatic always a charismatic. I actually still believe in the spiritual gifts but definitely not in the way that That the nor system has totally just warped everything and and made it you know so that it's it's actually harming it's actually harming a lot of people It's destructive There is if you're a Christian and you believe the Christian Bible

You don't believe in spiritual suicide because God is faithful God will always rescue you But that joining one of these churches is the equivalent of a spiritual suicide attempt You're going to basically cut yourself off from God and worship this new leader There is no planer way to say it its idolatry plain and simple according to the Bible. I don't believe that I can help it. I don't believe that you can help it. I don't believe pulling one cog out is the solution.

People need to stop treating every one bad case as one single bad example, one bad leader. You have to look at whether you want to call it system, whatever you want to call it. You have to look at how this is being how these people are being platformed because nobody in the right mind would say I'm going to submit my entire life, my authority, my finances, every single thing to this one individual and not make him accountable for everything that I have submitted to him. Would you go to a bank and say, I'm going to

bet my house that this bank is going to be honest with me on their loan. No, you're going to say, show me the book, show me do you have the money to back it, you're going to go, you do your due diligence, but you don't do that in spiritual things. It's really really odd to me. We have to teach people how to identify not just the system, but why is the system generating logos of good people who aren't really good people, many of them aren't good people. How do they identify a system that is creating this?

And then people say, no, I don't want to be part of this. I one of the last examples, and I've used this a few times on the podcast. There's a photograph out there, a picture out there of this guy standing off of the cliff on a soap box, yelling at all of these people.

Well, he's standing on top of a board that's hanging off of a cliff. The whole crowd is standing on the other side of the board, and he's being demeaning to them. All they have to do to not listen to him is just walk off and then he falls off the cliff. That's really what has happened here. People have submitted themselves and they're holding the leaders up. The moment it all, honestly, the moment the government says, okay, we're not going to give you a tax shelter. That's when it really implodes.

Everybody's going to just run. But until then, the people can do it too. They can simply say, we're not going to take it. Why is where is John? We'll leave it at that for today.

If you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at William-Brandom.org and PO Hugo-Ministeries.com. From more about the dark side of the NAR, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, and until normal.