The Revival High That Broke Us: Burnout From Charismatic Worship

Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Browns, I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Brandham Historical Research at William-Brandom.org, and with me I have my co-host and friend, Franny Nance, former member of Charismania. Franny, I've been talking to you for, I don't know how many weeks it's been now, and each time I talk to you I think back to the way it was whenever I was growing up, because growing up we had these experiences that we felt something.

Everything was there, you felt like it was a move of God, or when you're in your teenagers you think, oh my gosh, this is magic. What's happening here? And then after you get a little bit older, even while you're still in it, it changes.

Your experience and your perception of those experiences change. But then after you leave and you start to detangle all the mess that was there, you start to wonder, okay, how much of it was God, how much of it was manipulation, how much of it was just the Atrix. And the more I dive into some of the new modern, new Apostolic Reformation churches, and the Modern Charismatic Movement, I start to wonder, was there any God, or how much of it was the Atrix, and I wanted to talk this over with you and try to, I don't know, try to untangle the mess of what it's like to experience, quote unquote,

God in these modern services. It's funny, because like you were saying you're raising it, so was I, so that's all I knew. And you know, my parents were, you know, revival junkies or whatever. So it was like, we're going to Toronto for spring break, you know, for the Toronto blessing, we're going to Morningstar, we used to live like not too far away from there, so we could drive.

And it was always just like long worship sessions that would sort of like get you, you know, entering the throne room, all that language, you know, we're going to enter the throne room, going into the third heaven, it's like all these buzzwords. So yeah, I don't know, like looking back, you know, in my own healing process and growth and learning, I've had to sort of like, well, what, what was that? Like was that deliverance? Was that, that I experienced like, you know, and I've gone back and look, I'm thinking like, have I seen a healing? Have I seen?

You know, like I've seen people like manifest, you know, but have I seen like an actual like limb grow or have, you know, this person that went through deliverance, well, they still have the same problem or I don't know, like we haven't followed up with them.

So in my own personal life, it's like, well, I went to this Todd Bentley conference and, you know, he's screaming fire. It's like, and we're all, and I'm shaking and screaming, you know, and so I'm like, what was that? And I think a lot of times too, it's hard, like as a human, you don't really want to admit that maybe it wasn't God, like that I was manipulated. And I, you know, I was vulnerable and opened myself up to that and then allowed, you know, that to happen. And I think too, I think a lot

of, you know, people get offended by that. And I'm not, I'm not saying that your experience wasn't of God or whatever, inauthentic. Like, it's probably real. I guess my challenge is to those folks like, you know, was it God? I don't know. I just like looking at the mechanism of it.

Like, well, yeah, it's, you're in these services. And so they tell you like, oh, that's the power of God. Well, no, I mean, and so you just buy it. You're like, oh, okay, well, he said as a power of God, it's this, you know, person or whatever. But if you actually, and then if you question it, like, you're, you might have a demon. Like, I think that's how a lot of these things get you trapped.

It's like, I can't ask questions like, well, what happened to me? It's like, I don't, I don't even know what that was. And it's like, maybe that wasn't God. Oh, well, then it was demonic. Well, I don't really want to be labeled as demonic. And also, if you are manifesting and, you know, wildly worshipping these systems, like these churches, ministries, they really reward people, the more theatrical, the more dramatic, the more, you know, wild you are, like you are rewarded, you know, if like, wow, that person is really close to God or, you know, look at that. Like, this

the, you know, I don't know if I'm explaining it correctly, but I just think for me growing up in it, I was conditioned to believe that like, we stay, we worship, we get in these long, like worship sessions and you're, you know, crying out in your desperate and you're just, you're opening yourself up. And so, yeah, these do, you do get whipped up until like an emotional frenzy. And then you have a preacher preaching and telling you that this is God and like, and so there were people that were like, I don't feel anything like I don't, so I guess maybe God doesn't love me because I'm not,

I'm not feeling anything, you know, like maybe they're not easily manipulated. So they're like, I'm not feeling anything. Yeah, it's such a strange and unusual question. I have re-examined all of it from all different types of perspectives, from a historical perspective, psychological, and ironically, a rock and roll concert kind of changed my mind, and you're going to laugh at me.

I'm not going to give the name of the group, but I grew up listening to nothing but the old 1950s and 1960s gospel, which was outdated and no fun, and I did enjoy playing it, but after I started to experience real music, I was like, I want to go hear something different.

And so I didn't know the names of any of these groups, ironically. There were some groups that were locally and coming to Louisville in this big convention center, so I got some tickets to a group that I've never heard just to go hear them.

I went there. I think I took a couple of my boys with me. I don't think my wife was there, but it was a band and you would laugh at me if you heard the name.

But- I have to say the name. I'm not going to say it. The emotion, the hype, the euphoria, just the experience of being there. I was on cloud nine. This was one of the greatest moments of my life while I'm there.

And then towards the end of it, as I'm getting tired, I'm kind of like, it's okay. This is nothing like I've ever heard before. And after I left, I started listening to that same band on Spotify, and I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm not sure I really like these songs, although they did have a couple good ones.

But the moral of the story is this, while I was there in this massive crowd of people, everybody's clapping, they're all in this euphoria. They're bringing to you an emotion that you can't really contain.

And that's how crowd pleasers do. That's part of the charismatic personality is somebody who can engage with the crowd and get them all excited. Well, when you're in that type of environment, it can be a rock and roll concert.

It can be a Christian meeting and a Christian event. You're going to experience the same thing, no matter what. And so after that, I started critically analyzing every service that I went to at every church that I went to, and I go into a service, and instead of just getting into the crowd pleasing hype, whether it was a small crowd or a big crowd, I started to instead think about, okay, what is their technique, how are they doing with my head, and when you do this, it changes the service entirely.

The point I'm trying to make is, if it were the rock and roll God, I would be in there believing God has just come down in our midst, right? And the same way with the Christian services, I would be there like, oh my gosh, I feel it.

I feel the power going through me, but it's not really that so much as it is the connection to other humans that you're feeling. And yes, maybe that could be God. but in my experience this was more of a psychology based on the charismatic presence and the stage presence that they were doing. No, I would 100% agree with that. I think just based on you know, Benny-Hen's services and yeah just the the various and it's just the church, the format itself is and I've had to like question that too like the dark you know the dark room, the atmosphere they're preparing it and I think a lot of times too it's

it's so built into the system though it's like everything is is quote unquote godly it's like oh no well we're preparing the atmosphere for you know god to come down or something like that and it's like well you're just preparing a concert you know for for people to come and it's like um you know a lot of times too if we'd be at a church and the worship wasn't that great you know my parents like this church is dead we need to leave or or whatever um and I do remember like growing up it was always like really amazing like if the pastor would get up and say you know we're just

gonna continue to worship today I feel like the Holy Spirit's telling us just to worship and so like the whole service would just be worship and you know I remember my parents love that so much but then I'm thinking like well they almost do this every service it's like so if I was a pastor it's like I don't have to prepare anything I can just say like well the Holy Spirit's telling me that we need to continue to worship and you just like have a worship service the whole time um so yeah but I I guess I have in this like I my brain looks for patterns that that's just how you

know I I think that's interesting I like looking at patterns that's why like history it's why I studied it and so like even in my own experience and through like church or religion I just curious like looking at patterns and so someone who isn't another church or excuse me not church but just a different religion or I've honestly seen the same patterns in my research in carismania as the new age movement which has been really interesting to me people who are you in the new age like self-help you know guru type you know movement or whatever talk about the same

experiences like the same manifestations the same type of like clearing your like entering in clearing your mind and so I remember like I would bring that up I'm like well this person and they're like well that's counterfeit that's not of God you know this is of God I'm like well who was deciding that like you know it's like so then for for me like as a young person trying to even there's no like source of truth like there's no what am I trying to think like this is the source of truth so like like, you know, this experience is the same as in the church as the same as like this

experience this person has as like, you know, in yoga or something like that, but like I'm told that that's evil, but this is not even though it's the same thing. And it's like, well, that's a demon manifesting, but this is the power of God manifesting on you. And so there's no, it's just, it's always changing. It's always based on, you know, the people in power, the person in charge. And if you ask too many questions, well, then you must have a demon too, or you don't have faith or whatever. And so, yeah, we keep yourself trapped that way, but also I think too in these services as well, like, I mean,

that's how, yeah, they get you, you lower your inhibitions, you go in already, like, a lot of these people are looking for healing, you know, they've got like hard things in their life going on. And so people want answers, they want healing, they want a miracle. And a lot of these play, they promise you miracles. They all promise you miracles, you know, just enter in, you know, just worship, give your all or whatever. And so if you think about that, like outside of like a religious church, if you are, I don't know, like a government

leader is telling you to like just just, you know, open your mind, like, open your heart to what I have to say or whatever, like, you know, a lot of people would start questioning that. But I think in church, you're just like, Oh, you know, I trust this person, this leader and this minister, and they're anointed. And, you know, you know, my pastor's brought this I tender at minister and to speak. And I'm conditioned now, you know, like to when I come to church and they start lowering the music, the lights and start like playing

the music, the drum starts going. And, you know, like that we go up to the altar, we all, you know, open our hearts. And like, that's what I've been taught that that is how you worship God and surrender yourself to him. And then your inhibitions are lowered. And so you're kind of ready to absorb whatever you're, you're told or, yeah. And so people do get whipped up. There are like many studies like, you know, I mean, anyone can, can research it or look it up where it's like this group mob mentality of just like where everyone's getting whipped

up and they're all like, you know, crying or shaking, you know, and people like, Oh, they're shaking under the power of God. And it's like, well, no, but I just know they're manipulated. It's like and they lowered their inhibitions and are, you know, sort of whipped up in this group thing. Well, an interesting part about that. A lot of people who attend these types of services are filled with anxiety either from having been under spiritual abuse or simply by life, you know, and there is, there are many studies that talk about how meditation can help calm your anxiety and it works.

I've done it myself. When you get into one of these services and they start doing the prayer meditation, you actually start to feel better. So you can be in the group and you can start to feel better.

Does that mean that it's God? Well maybe your meditation is on God. But at the same time, you could go to one of the local, I don't know, meditation classes and our YMCA has some various classes.

We could go do something like this and we could feel some of the same feeling. Does that mean it's from God at the YMCA, I don't know. But for me, the bigger question is whenever they're doing this and they're taking things that you can, you can critically examine by comparing to the outside world, the non-Christian world.

And you can have some of the same emotions, same experiences, same hype, but they tell you things in these meetings like, you're only going to find that stuff here. You're only going to feel like this here.

God is moving here. God's not moving in the church down the street. Well the problem is, I started hearing these things and I went to the church down the street. I started to feel it and I'm like, well, wait a minute.

And especially the Catholic church, they're cold and formal in the Catholic church and they all bow down to the Pope is that's what we hear from the, at least from the services that I grew up in.

I've never been to a Catholic service, but I'm certain from talking to other Catholics, they go through the same motions. So they're going to feel the same thing and to a Catholic they'll say, well, I feel God in our services and it's no different than a Protestant feeling God.

The question really comes down to, are you actually, are you actually making a move of God happen when you do this? Are you just using a tool that God gave humanity to help calm themselves and to help become a better person because in the end, that's really what it should be about.

However, whenever you're in some of the modern charismatic movements, they put a, they stress an urgency in most of the revivals. So though start out with this meditation feeling, this calm, welcoming feeling, then they get into the meat and the heart of the subject matter, which raises your anxiety more.

And then at the end of it, there's this call to Jesus that brings you back into the meditation state. This is something that I analyzed, crazy analysis through different services that I'm looking at, different movements, and they all match that same pattern.

Because if you can bring the heart up to this, I don't know, this anxious state and your heart's pounding from the things they're saying, then suddenly the altar call or however, however the church does it or the event, where you start to feel that peace and suddenly, oh my gosh, the spirit has moved down upon us, we're blessed.

us. And you listen to the speaker doing this kind of thing. In the end, for me, it's really just a crowd manipulation tool. But what I have found to be odd, some of the speakers, the ministers and evangelists, they're just so accustomed to doing it. I don't think that they realize that it is having that effect on their crowds.

I told my husband once again, because he didn't grow up in this. And so it's just very foreign to him. And we did try to attend a non-denominational church. And we moved out here. I was like, well, let's just try. I have like a great kids program. But it was, when you go in, the lights dim. And then they have like, they have incredible musicians at the church. Like, and they are, they look pretty, you know, they sound amazing. And the music is incredible. But I'm sitting there and it's loud. And like, you can hear the

drum banging and like, everyone's there. And it's like the worship leaders like enter in, enter in. Like, give your heart to God. You know, God wants to heal you. God loves you. Did it. And I think that the worship leader is genuine. Like, but that's how he's been trained. You know, like, he's a worship leader. Like, that's how in the charismatic movement, like, I, this is how I'm going to drum you up, like to get you whether he genuinely means it or whatever. But I was talking about, it's like, I can't be in this because it's

almost like an addict. Like, it's like, I can't be around this emotional hype or whatever because it's, it's not healthy for me because I don't trust like what feelings, like the kind of feelings that elicits in me. And I was telling my husband, I was like, you know, I, I could be like in these environments, like, if I didn't have ethics or conscience, like, I could be the next, like, I could say, I'm a prophet. Like, you, you can't. Like, I grew up in it. I've been around it enough to know. I like intern for the Nitener

and minister, seen it. Like, I, I am, I'm also like hyper vigilant, like, just my own background or whatever. Like, I can use the lingo. I, and could say, like, you know, let me pray for you, like, and say it in the, the cadence that, that they have said they, you know, I have this prophetic word or I'm feeling that the Lord is telling me this or that. Um, and I, I could abuse, like, that's how these people abuse power. It's like you attract and like broken people or whatever people that want to feel special, that, you

know, you get a lot of attention from being anointed by God or whatever, or like, you get a high off of like, wow, I, I prophesied over this person. I laid hands on them and spent all this time, like, praying for these people and, you know, for their healing or whatever, and then, I mean, it's just like any guru, like that's why I say, it reminds me of influencers or gurus that you see on social media, you know, like that they have their platforms or whatever, it's the same thing.

And so that's when I kind of, when I'm saying, like you look at patterns, it's like, well, who put this person in charge and said that they were anointed by God? Like this person is doing, you know, the same things and we're giving a lot of like authority to this person, like you're opening yourself up to them, and in these environments with people who truly, you know, there are people who are really broken that they are desperate for healing.

They, you know, they do have like mental illness, you know, there's, or whatnot. And so they come into these environments being promised, like you just need a touch from God, like God will heal you, you need a touch from God or whatever.

And so they do come in, they lower their inhibitions. And so there is that like atmosphere too that does kind of like pick up of like, you sort of like go off the energy of other people and send to the whole crowd as whipped up.

I mean, it's the whole thing like group think from people talk about like the mob mentality, you know, or it's like all of a sudden everyone like, you know, freaks out and, you know, what happened with this like, peace and history, like, you know, I think about like, sometimes with like, mobs in the south or actually all across the country that, you know, they all got whipped up and would unalive a person, you know, just because the, you know, one person accused them of something and then everyone, yeah, you just get sucked into that.

And so it's the same thing, I think, with, with Charismania in a lot of these services. And honestly, I'm trying not to be like, you know,

judgemental, but in the same time, like, I really think that these, this whole system itself and the whole like charismatic movement, these churches, these ministries, I think they're disingenuous. Like, I think that it's unhelpful to, I mean, I know like a lot of people are like, well, like I, you know, found freedom.

I'm like, I just know, like, you know, I don't, I don't think they're helpful. I don't think that, I actually think it's, it's pretty destructive and we're sort of like, keeping a group of people in power with, you know, their, their money, their power or whatever.

And then they choose like the next anointed leader and then throw that person out or whatever. And it just keeps the whole like, grift and cycle going with people trapped and, you know, going to healing service after healing service.

I remember there was a family friend of ours, their son had spined a bifida, born with that and they're believers. And I just remember the amount of healing services they went to and like many hymns or whatever when their son was young and it was like, you know, God's gonna heal him.

I see him walking, I see him, you know, whatever. This is like back in the 90s. And I, you know, at one point, which I think was wise, the parents were like, we're done.

You know, like, and they, you know, attended a nice little Presbyterian church and they actually started a foundation for, you know, their son and other people that suffer with the same illness or whatnot.

And, and I remember like people in our community judged them really harshly, like, well, they just didn't want it. Like they didn't hold on long enough to have the faith that, you know, God said he was gonna be healed.

It's like, at some point, like you can't keep, like whipping your, it's exhausting. That's what I'm trying to my point. You're going to service after service. Like, okay, I'm praying hard. Like, maybe my healings now, like I need to hold on to my healing or my deliverance or, you know, the anointing or whatever God has for me.

And I, you know, these parents, it's exhausting. It's like, I have a kid with like special needs. So we got to live in the real world and focus on now. And that young man is still has spina bifida, but he went to college.

He has a job. You know, it's like, there is that versus a lot of times these movements, like the Charismania, the NAR, these prophets, ministers, whatever, like they keep you trapped in this like cycle.

You know, Benny Hinn wouldn't have a job if people were actually healed. It's like, if people were actually healed, he would not be in business, but that man is still in business because he knows how to, he's charismatic.

He knows how to sell a brand like, and people feel good when they go to his services and, you know, whatever. And when you come off of the emotional high and you start to feel depressed, well, they have a word for that too.

The year being oppressed by the devil. So I need to go back to the service, another service, another minister to get another touch from God and get filled up again, or whatever instead of like, well, let's look at the root.

What got me to start thinking outside the boxes that, you know, I have to live in the real world. I have a job, I'm married. Like, I would like to have children, you know, I have kids now, but at the time, and I have friendships with normal people, I want to keep those friendships like help.

Like, what do I do? Because I can't keep going to all these like worship services, you know, looking for emotional healing or whatever it was. And it honestly was just like the boring answer, which was like, what is stable?

Like, what is peaceful? What is just normal? you know, it's like I'm not depressed, like I just got myself whipped up into an emotional frenzy, like let's move through this emotion. All right, we're good.

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What's interesting about it is I have had to study how bipolar disorder works to try to help my family member. When you learn the ups and downs, the ebbs and flows, the highs and the lows, and start to apply that to the context of having been under indoctrination by a central figure of a cult, the two are actually very similar because you get up into this manic phase where everything is God, everything is a demon trying to attack you, everything is making you anxious, and then there comes this law after you make peace with all of this, you go to church, well suddenly

there comes a time whenever it's just boring. And I hate to say it, but boring is a natural human thing. You're supposed to have this, right? But when you're in this type of movement, you can't really have boring church. You have to have something. There has to be an enemy to fight. And when you're in a bipolar state, once you go to that boring phase, you're off of your manic phase, well now you start to drop into the depressive phase. So you get really deeply saddened, you get all of these heightened emotions, you start to feel just awful, you feel like something's wrong with you,

and then you bounce back if you're in the bipolar realm. Well in the religious realm, once you hit boring church, you're like, well God's not moving, what's wrong? And then you start to become depressed, God's not moving, I don't feel you're getting my life, I don't feel God, I must have done something wrong. And then you go down into the depressive phase. So in effect, what they're doing is they're introducing a bipolar-like mentality inside of your brain. And you can't just have a boring church, which is really odd now that I am out of this and I'm starting to think about it.

Boring it. is a state that even in our world today, we've got so much entertainment and YouTube and I can flip through channels on my TV. There's like 2000 channels, man. There's never a moment.

I don't have something to entertain me, right? So whenever you're at that level of being entertained, you don't know how to process boring. I remember when I was growing up, there were times that we would just sit in a chair and we might have a conversation, but we might also just sit there because boring was something that every human should have.

It brings your brain down to a point where it can start to process things. And in today's world, the children are struggling because they don't have downtime to process. When the religious world, it's been that way for decades.

People just are in that hype and in that movement. When you're doing this and your brain is not allowed to process, you also can't critically think because your brain gets so tired and then you go back to church and it tires it out more.

In the end, there are people I think who really suffer from actual mental health issues because they stay in this so long that their brain, which is a muscle that starts to get tired and it can't really function in the same way that it did in a normal boring church.

Yeah, no, that's true, it's funny. We've started going to just a local episcopal church that's like right up, we can walk to it or whatever. And it's my kids actually really like it because it's just the, I mean, the people are so sweet.

It's a bunch of older folks, but they like it because it's just a short service. It's the routine. They have the bulletin that's like the whole service basically on there so you can see.

But for me, there's something that I enjoy about that because it's like, it's a liturgy. It's reading the Bible. It's a short message. And then we do communion every week. And it just goes through the whole like on the night he was betrayed, that whole thing.

And so I think a lot of people that I talk to, they're like, how are you still a Christian? And I'm like, it's been a long road. But I think that there is, you know, you can find, I mean, again, a no judgment towards people who are no longer believers.

But I think that's what I was kind of looking for too that's honestly led me to Dr. Steve Hassan or whatever. When I was sort of going to this deconstruction and sort of like, what was this?

Was I as an occult my whole life? I'm like, you know, basically, like it's, you know, wasn't. I think it's hard for us because we're, you know, I'm like, well, I wasn't like a member of the people's temple, like Jim Jones or whatever.

And that's how I think a lot of these charismatic churches do that as well, like we're not occult, you know, like you can leave anytime. I mean, it's like, you use the same tactics.

But back to Dr. Hassan, I appreciated him because when he came out of the moonies called, which if you listen to his ex, which I know you guys, or colleagues, or whatever, but like if you listen to his story, he has the same experience as I care as Mania.

You know, he talks about Glossolalia or the music. That's what he said, he says he misses the music, the most from the moonies. And this was, he got out in the 70s. So I thought that was interesting.

Like he's talked about the music and the community and that piece. But what encouraged me to continue on is that when he got out of the cult, he returned to his Jewish faith. And so I'm like, okay, you can be out of the cult, like Kars Mania, whatever.

And you can still have a faith. Like that doesn't mean, you know, because that's sort of like, well, is there no, because there are unexplainable things in the world. You know, God is, is big.

If you believe in God, like, there's wonder, you know, there's mystery, whatever. And some of that, we're not meant to know. You know, I don't, I don't know. You can just enjoy it for what it is.

And so that there has been a lot of me deconstructing, quote unquote, reconstructing and kind of sort of exploring and finding that. But it honestly has been getting, well, mentally, like that, that truly is, it's, I relate so much to people who grew up inside of cults and then have stepped away.

And then it's kind of like, what do I do now? And kind of figuring out what's truth, what's not, what was real, you know, what wasn't. And so we're, you know, I have some good friends that they love good worship music.

And they feel that they connect to God that way, but they don't, they didn't experience what I did. They don't, they didn't have that extreme charismania. So I'm like, well, that's good for you.

I can't do that. I cannot, like, because I don't trust what it does, it, there is a level of mind control in that. And so there is this gray area. I feel like I'm navigating with faith, but also not getting sucked into that.

And I really think if you step back, I keep saying patterns. I just, I see it so much in everything. You mentioned like just with not, not being bored and, you know, there's always something going on to like stimulate you, whether it's on your phone or I recently took social media off my, just completely, a couple of months ago, just because I'm like, I can't, it's too much.

Like I'm not bored or, you know, or thinking or I'm being influenced by that. And it just made me think about, like that's, Yeah, you don't ever give your brain a break and I think growing up in this in the Charismatic Church, you don't give your brain a break.

You don't like just, honestly, people don't have fun. Like they don't do, you know, everything has to have a spiritual purpose or there's a spiritual intensity. It's this intensity. I mean, I was like that.

It was like this, you know, intensity, like in the, you know, laboring in the place of prayer, like, confessing, now we got a fast, you know, and there's always like, you're saying, you also mentioned this urgency and I think a lot of times these movements, like the, not, I keep saying movements, it's the NAR, it's all these.

And what irritates me too is when you say the NAR, they'd be like, we're not NAR, like no one wants to be accountable. Oh, we're not, you know, that wasn't us, you know, and that's how like this system has been structured because it's like, we're not NAR, we don't claim that or, you know, shambles, like he's not a part of us, like, it's like, give me a break.

Like you guys have hosted him and like made money off of him, so please, you know, now he doesn't serve your purpose, so now you're distancing yourself. But you see it now, like just in the broader culture, like I'm blown away by the influence that the NAR

and the people within their have in our political system, now, today, like compared to, you know, in the 90s, when I was in high school, again, at a Lewingle conference getting whipped up, you know, like Jesus is coming back, like, you know, we need to, you know, bring justice and do a silent prayer siege against this abortion clinic and, you know, we have a curse on the land because of this and that and this and that.

I mean, they have a whole crowd of fervor, you know, whipped up and these people, they just need bodies and they use, like, especially they pray upon young people, they use the youth, they glorify youth, they use them in order to serve their purposes, whatever that might be, whether they believe in their ministry or not.

And they sort of pray on that and then when people like me get older and I'm like, I'm exhausted, you know, like, I, you know, what happens? Like I don't even know, like what way to think and then you feel like a big loser because you're like, well, I'm not, I didn't usher in the second coming of Christ and I'm not like having healings, it's like actually have to have a job and live in the world.

Yeah, they don't, there's no tools for that. They have no use for you anymore. And I see that happening again where it's like, think after what happened to Charlie Kirk was, it was disturbing to me because I would start to see the same figures getting to the youth talking about persecution, you know, the second coming of Christ, we need revival and I'm just like, oh, here.

we go again. And so I think that's where in this I just I challenge people like just allow yourself for a minute to think who who benefits and you know look at the patterns of history and you know look at look at yourself and be okay with like asking questions like what if I don't participate in this I don't know there's always like you're saying this is urgency it's this life and death and I think that's how they keep you you you you stay stuck and you stay trapped and then the cycle keeps going they keep making money you know they keep their power um and until the next round

or the next cycle um comes up but I do find it interesting especially the people you've had in your podcast it's the same same characters Che on low angle you know the Bethel people that you know vineyard whatever it is it's just like gosh there's those names again so I'm going to embarrass myself just a little bit I um I did something stupid a few years back and I was trying to get healthy and I I did actually lose quite a bit of weight and I was fighting pre-diabetes I got a I set up a treadmill desk and so I would walk on my desk and had my keyboard set up my

monitor and I was walking and reading about other people who are doing the same thing it was like this get energized get active kind of thing and there's this website that talked about people who are walking enough steps on their treadmill that they had actually walked around the length of the globe multiple times and I'm like wow I want to be this person so I set it for you know you set it for low mileage per hour it's like one or two miles an hour and then you just walk so I was walking six seven hours a day which which wasn't the right way to do this if you're

going to do this don't do what I did so I'm walking six or seven hours a day and you know first week I I feel fine I'm pretty tired actually after I'm done but after about two or three weeks I was walking one day and I felt odd it didn't feel like there was any injury but I felt odd early on like one hour into it and I went to full six hours I think it was and after six hours I'm walking the whole time I did you know most of my work and then I turned the treadmill off and step down

whenever I did I felt flat on my face my legs actually couldn't hold my body up

and I live and I worked downstairs so I was walking upstairs I couldn't make it up the stairs I actually had to take a knee and it was difficult and I learned real quickly that your body can take a lot of pain and a lot of abuse and you may not even know that it's happening if it's happening very very gradually so that's what happened to me I think I tore one of my calf muscles and so It took a long time to heal, but I learned in that moment not to do this.

Don't let your body go slowly and slowly into your pain until you can't make it through. Ironically, as I was processing all of this, I had the same type of thing happen to me from a mental perspective.

The first time I met Dr. Stephen Hassan, I was going through the decompression phase whenever I first started working with him, and I was working with him for somebody else, not for me. Some learning through him, how to help other people, and kind of piecing all of this together as I'm going.

I was going through a decompression phase because my body, my mind was doing what my body did on the treadmill. I had gradually, through 37 years of my life, been indoctrinated, been taught this urgency, taught this fear, condemnation, all of the things that they teach you in these movements.

I did it for so long. I didn't realize the effect it was having on me mentally. I was a mental wreck, man, and whenever you leave this, what he describes leaving the moonies was severe and extreme, but I started to realize I had the same thing just in different ways in a different levels.

I was suffering the confusion, the grief, the betrayal. He felt shame for leaving. The biggest one for me, you felt like you had a loss of identity because your identity was tied to that group, and it was in the moment that I discovered that tie, that connection between, okay, my identity wasn't mine.

It was given to this group, and I started to just entangle my identity within the group so that I'm not, when I leave, I'm not the same person anymore, and the group is not the same group because it's all kind of woven together.

I thought about this multiple times. We tried a few different churches after leaving, and I'd go to a church, and I would stay in it long enough to really become part of what I was in, but then when I would leave, I felt the sadness because I had made close friends, connections, but I left with my identity, and that for me was the biggest thing.

I still was the same person after I left this whenever I was in it, and some of the friends who I left behind are still my friends. I'll still go out to dinner with them and whatnot.

Your identity is so molded and shaped into this. Now combine it with everything else that we've said in this podcast, the emotions, the hype, the euphoria. When you're in that level of euphoria, and your identity is tied to the group, then if you suddenly leave it, all of that that you thought was God is wrapped up in your identity, and your identity is left behind.

So people leave, and they think, oh my gosh, I've left God. I left God behind, and it's really sad what they've done to the people. And in the end, it's all part of the psychological turmoil that they have created unnecessarily because of trying to keep you in this hype.

Yeah, that's interesting too. You're talking about the walking. You've even realized you had injured your body. And I think that's the same thing. I think people like me, when I've had discussions with, you know, my two sisters and we've talked ad nauseam, you know about this. And, you know, they're still believers. They all go to Presbyterian churches. But just kind of like, what was that? And I think a lot of it was like coming out of it like you're saying. And there's a gradual, I don't even think we realize it because it wasn't this dramatic, like, I'm leaving this cult. It was sort of this slow,

unraveling in a lot of years of like, what was that? Or, gosh, I feel sad. I feel, you know, did I miss God? Like, did I not fulfill, you know, and then there's like, no, I didn't like, do I believe in God still? Like, what, you know, a lot of that. And then having to, it's definitely been like a process. Like, you're saying figuring out who am I? Like, what, do I like how, what, how do I act? Like, what, yeah, who am I? And I think that, you know, I don't even know how to feel. Like, is this a real emotion? Like, was that

God? Or is that not God? Like, did I just have a bad day? Like, you know, there's a lot, it's almost like a child, like, relearning like, I'm one therapy modality that was really helpful to me was DBT, dialectic behavior therapy, which sounds really fancy. But honestly, it was just like, group therapy, basic, like, here's the emotion wheel. What are you feeling?

You know, it's like when you have a distressing emotion, you know, it's just sort of this, like, and a lot of people in the group were diagnosed with like borderline personality disorder that I was in the group with. And it was fascinating because they're describing stuff. And I'm like, do I have borderline personality? You know, I mean, just because it's like the same. But it was interesting. There's a woman in the group who was in her 60s. And, you know, she'd been, she's like, this is my eighth time doing DBT or whatever. And there's another young lady in the group who's in her 20s who this is her first time. And she was

diagnosed with borderline in this older woman's diagnosis borderline. And it was really interesting to hear them share their experience and, you know, what sets them off. And the older woman was like, you know, well, when my boyfriend broke up with me, my 30s, I, I, I slash his tires and bashed in his windows or whatever. And she was like, but then over time, you know, with like DBT and working on like my, you know, I don't do that anymore, you know, or whatever. But it was like the point was, like, I'm feeling...

this way, like why, you know, like maybe I'm feeling it, like just a logical reason, like I'm tired, I'm hungry, you know, or whatever, and just sort of like working through that, like I don't need to follow the rabbit trail of this intense emotion, like this will pass.

And I think a lot of times in these service like churches or whatever in this movement, a lot of broken people you're attracted in there because you are looking for answers, like you want healing, you want deliverance, like this young lady in this DVT group, she's like, I've wrecked my life. She's like, I lost a job because like, she was horribly abused as a child. And so there's a lot of trauma and a lot of grief in that. And she's like, I lost my job because I punched my boss. So it's like that extreme. And so, but the way for freedom,

which you know, I believe is not like having hands laid on, you go through deliverance, and you hop from service to service, it's like I have to deal with these distressing emotions, I have to face the trauma that I went through and then do the boring hard work of step by step, you know, it's like I'm not going to swing up and down, it's just sort of like, not that you don't feel like, but it's like not every feeling has a meaning, you know, it's, it's it's not a demon, it's not like God, you know, proper sign that we need to move across the

country. It is just like, it's a feeling, like it's data, you know, like it's not, doesn't define, define me. I don't know if I'm making sense, but I think that for whatever reason, it's such a basic thing. I have found healing and freedom in very boring, stable, basic answer. It's like, it's not extreme. It's not like the angel of the Lord appeared to me and spoke to me, blah, blah, that didn't, that never worked for me. Like, you know, and I think those people that have continued in that way of life, I think their, their nervous systems are exhausted. I don't know

how they're continuing in that. And yeah. I am so glad you brought up borderline personality disorder. I've been wanting to talk about that. I can't tell you for how long and it's, it's never really come up in a way that I can do it justice. And in the last, what do we have 10 minutes or so here now? I don't know that I can, but I was watching interestingly one of these shows, one of these old black and white shows might have been the three stages. And the person was reaching out to grab maybe a cookie. I'm vaguely remembering what this is. And I'm picturing

this old woman on the other side with this big wooden spatula smack in the hand every time that he reached out. And he kept trying to get it. She kept smack in his hand. And over time, he realized that if I'm going to reach my hand out, she's going to smack my hand and he stopped doing it. That's a trained mechanism, right? You're trained not to reach your hand out because you're smack.

Picture your hand being smacked for 37 years, and then suddenly you walk out of the building. You're never going to reach for the thing again for the next, who knows, 20 years. If you ever do, you're never going to reach out because you remember your hand getting smacked.

We in the group that I left felt like if somebody had this diagnosis, this was a curse. You were cursed by a demon. Demons have infected you. It might be for the rest of your life.

It's not really like that. It's a trained disorder. Your emotions, your actions, your history, your personality, and your circumstances all contribute to your personality, and it may contribute in a bad way, and you may end up with a disorder, and you have to work through processes to correct that over time.

So people who are in a movement who is continually manipulating their heads with things like the world is about to end, we must be prepared. You're going to eventually start to mold and shape their personality.

That's why when I said the identity was wrapped in, that's exactly what it is. Well, the problem is, some of the leaders are very obnoxious whenever they speak, and they themselves have a tremendous personality disorder, and they're introducing that disorder to the crowd.

So the crowd over time, they start to adopt it, and then they start to show similarities in their own personalities. You've taken the cult's identity, and the identity had a disorder, as weird as that sounds.

Well, somebody who, like for me, who is in this for 37 years, all of my personality flaws that I can trace back to the group are very, very difficult to correct. I still say things, I do things, I take actions, that after I do it, I'm like, you know, that's not right.

That's not how people should behave, but that's the way we be. And the point I'm trying to make in this very quick rant that I have is that you can be in one of these groups, and they can give you a personality disorder that takes years to actually correct and overcome.

Yeah, also interesting, I wish we had talked about this earlier too, because I think that's where, you know, I started to, you know, because I would do years of therapy, and I would still have the same, like, response, or like, you know, my husband, I would get in the same argument, or I'm like, why can't I, like, I've been in therapy, I'm like learning else.

It wasn't until a few years ago, I started listening to this podcast called Navigating Narcissism or whatever, and she interviewed a young lady named Stephanie Foo who wrote a book called What My Bones Know, and she talked about something I never heard, which was complex PTSD.

And I was like, that is what I have, you know, I have, you know, people, you know, roll your eyes. But no, it's like and that it's really interesting now with like a lot of the studies and I'm a good friend that's a psychologist who She was saying that they're kind of moving more towards not diagnosing people with borderline personality disorder But more like complex PTSD like it's something you can work through and heal So it's like what you were saying. It's you know, you're not like well, you're stuck with this, but these groups You know, whatever they would probably call it a demon, but like you you don't heal

It keeps you stuck in reliving these like Little traumas or you keep you stay in the same Cycle of the borderline, you know, the highs and the lows that I'm sobbing one day and then I'm euphoric the next day Like that and that's why when I was sitting in these groups and I'm hearing them describe They're you know, they're like I'm diagnosed with borderline personality disorder and here is the way in which it manifests and I'm like Okay, that could be me and I also see every person that I've ever been around in this Charismatic movement that's have these wild swings that say oh, that is the Holy Spirit

That is Jesus or that's a demon attacking me Like this is spiritual warfare. We have this urgency or whatever and it's like no like that That's a mental illness And and so I think that's what reading about it reading people's experiences Even outside of the church and sort of again seeing those patterns in my own life and But also the hope of seeing like You know you we're always growing and changing and it is biblical It's like God talks about working your faith You know working out your faith like Jesus talks about that. It's not like

You know, whatever like it takes time like you know we're human and so I think there was a level of like freedom for me Hearing you know that older woman who was diagnosed with it talk about Over time healing working accepting reality And like moving through it where she doesn't have those wild swings or reactions anymore and Yeah, I think in these movements especially we could I'm sure you'll have people that could talk about this too and you can Research it on the internet, but it's like Bethel has something called like sozo like they're interhealing

Which is pulled from Randy Clark's deliverance ministry or whatever And those like if you read about it like those things are so destructive It's so like it should be outlawed like in a sense because it just it keeps They're not trained like and they keep a person with like a borderline or trauma that has like experience like a lot of traumas in their past They have mental illness stuck in that and attribute and it makes it worse because they attribute it to like spiritual things like My salvation, me not burning in hell, is connected to whatever, they teach in these, so

anyway, that's a rabbit trail going on. Yeah. It's such a mess. I mean, really, we probably should do a full episode talking through that because it is very similar and I don't know if people realize how connected it is, but I have personally been to CA therapist multiple times and I recommend if you have been impacted by this group or anything similar, it's probably good to go through and just, you know, it's like going to a doctor, find out what's wrong, see what help we can get and move on through your life.

You can suddenly start to feel better and life becomes much better, so thank you so much for doing this. Yeah. Thank you. Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.

You can find us at William-Brandom.org. For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR, available in Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.