What Happens to Your Faith After You Leave a Cult?

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Boolean Brandham Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Brandham Historical Research at William-brandham.org and with me I have my co-host and friend, Pia Hugo, former member of the New Apostolic Reformation. Pia, it's good to be back and to talk about an unusual subject. This is something you don't know this but I've actually wanted to have this exact conversation that you pitched to me several times but I didn't really know how to do it or who to do it with and I got to thinking about it

after you sent it. It is the perfect time. I have had many people tell me, John, you need to open up, you need to tell them exactly what you believe right now and there's a reason why I don't and that's because of what we're going to talk about in this podcast. There is a point of time between the time you leave a cult and the time that you gain your footing and you find your new life.

There's a time in between where you are wondering on a journey and it is the most difficult time you have ever been on. I went through this, I've talked to many people, I've helped people through this journey and I try very hard not to sway them in their journey. I don't want to tell them their journey for them. I want them to take their journey. So in my podcast you'll find that I am somewhat indifferent and distant because I don't want them to know where I ended up. Instead I want them to take the journey. But I did want to eventually

talk about the journey and who better to talk it over with than you. I am honored John. Thank you for having me again and yeah I I just thought you know what I want to talk about my seven years of wandering. That was the idea I pitched to you and I myself have actually never really talked about it much in public. I'm not proud of those years John. You know I was born Catholic and at 19 I became you know Protestant and as most of your listeners know by now I quickly got immersed in PDI in the 1980s and NAR in the 1990s. So I want to start where we

left off the last time. So I got kicked out of this NAR church called Harvest. Brock Church in Pasadena, California led by my former brother-in-law, Cheon. The year was 1996. So my seven years of wandering started from 1997 to 2004. I hadn't realized it was actually about seven years later I was kind of writing in my journals about it and I just thought I should write a book about that my seven years of wandering. So who knows this might be the beginning of a new book for me but let me start there. So in 1996 I was kicked out. I was cut off from

all my friends, my church friends, and I was a new divorcee and single mom with three kids.

Maybe at some point John I can go deeper into some of the traumas that I experienced as a child. Let me just say that it was sexual abuse. So sexual abuse slash malastation. There were two perpetrators.

None of them were my direct family members but suffice it to say that by the time it started when it was five. By the time I was like 16 years old I had a lot of brokenness inside but I was very good at hiding it. Like I said I was a good Catholic girl. Went to mass every Sunday. Went to Catholic school for my elementary years and I just learned to put that facade like we all do and pretend that you know what it's just my body whatever I'll get over it.

Well when I was 17 years old something very very tragic happened in my family. We lost our oldest brother to suicide. So when my oldest brother took his own life my whole world started spinning and I just all of a sudden had the suicidal ideations. I didn't know. I didn't really connect the abuses of my childhood to the pain I was feeling feeling when my brother died but it was just lots of loss lots of grieving that came up and because I had not been to a counselor you know there's back in the day nobody went to counselors back then. So I did finally admit to my mom

Hey, you know what, this happened to me. And she's like, why didn't you tell me, you know, blah, blah, blah, and I'm like, yeah, that's why I just want to dive, blah, blah, blah.

I was very dramatic for me. So their solution was let's go to the United States. When you go to the US and you'll have a change of seeing everything's gonna be better. You can start on you, start afresh.

That was my mom, you know, we used to call her Pauliana. You remember Pauliana? So that was my mom's nickname. Everything is just gonna be brighter. Or, you know, that little girl from

that Broadway play, little Annie, little orphan Annie. Like the sun will come up tomorrow. You know, venture bottom dollar. Tomorrow, there'll be sun. So, and it's funny, I'm saying this, John, because I just told you earlier that it had rained all day.

I mean, sorry, all night, last night. And I'm looking outside and it's beautiful. It's blue skies, the sun's out. So, you know, sometimes it happens that way, John. Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes the sun does not come out.

And you're left in deep depression. You are left in the darkness. So, when I came here to the US, again, 18, 19 years old, I met this guy, swoop me off my feet, got married.

I honestly thought, and remember, I met Jay on and so on. My brother-in-law and sister-in-law at that time. And they introduced me to Jesus. They introduced me to this amazing movement. So, I honestly felt like all my troubles have been swept away covered by the blood.

I've been saved, I've been healed, I've been delivered. Here we go. So, for a while, that facade of, I have overcome all my trials, the past is now, the past, the new has come.

I fully embrace that truth. And I think that's why I just fell head long into

all the PDI theology and then later the Northeology and all the charismatic stuff. It became my drug of choice. That's how I look at it. It was a heady drug. And I honestly thought that all my troubles were over until I realized that I had married a narcissistic abuser.

In our marriage, no matter what I did, no matter how... how much I submitted, prayed, fasted, did everything my husband told me to do. It just got worse and worse until he became physically abusive.

Then, okay, so now fast forward. I'm now 30 years old. I am now newly divorced and I fell into the deepest hole I've ever found myself in. I felt like I lost everything, John.

And I started getting suicidal ideations again. Now, thankfully by this time, I was seeing a therapist. So, my therapist walked me through. Now, I know you've gone through therapy, John. So, yeah, I'm curious to see if you can relate to this.

But in the very, very beginning, my response when the therapist said, you know, how are you? You know, how are things? Like, oh, it's all great. I don't even know why I'm here. You know, like, can't you see?

You see this smile? Like, I'm all good. I'll probably just need one or two of these and then they'll be fine. And then, she dug into my history about, you know, the child sexual abuse and then my brother dying, you know, suicide.

And then the 10-year domestic abuse that I had barely crawled out of and the cultic environment that I was in. And I got kicked out of. And she looked at me and she's like, whoa, like, you know, she didn't tell me, but in her head, like, this woman is full of denial.

Like, I had this big wall. But she was good. She chipped away, chipped away, chipped away. And then all this ugly emotions came out. Just this rage, this, like, the anger. I remember the anger.

And I was angry at her. I was angry at the therapist. I was doing just fine before you pulled it all out of me. And now I have to deal with this depression. I have to deal with my anger towards all these people who had harmed me.

I'm trying to work on forgiveness. But how can I forgive when what they did to me was horrible? Like, I felt like my life had been ruined. So I'm going to open up a little bit more than I usually do.

Because I feel like it is really important to demystify therapy. The movement by and large has trained people to believe that if you go to a therapist, it's the same thing as going to a witch doctor and you're going to catch a demon and all of this stuff.

And when you actually go, it's kind of like you describe. But after a while, it really syncs in. The therapist is there only to help you talk and make your brain recognize what has happened.

happened to you. All they're doing is they're giving you things, things to jog your memory so that you can put words to your feelings. And once you put those words to your feelings, share your emotions, you break down, you usually start crying. That's usually how it works.

And I have actually had a pretty close relationship with a therapist and he told me that, yeah, usually once it hits that point when they just break down and they can't stop crying, that's the part where they start to heal and they move on. And my cousin Jesse, who was in the brana movement, he escaped, he is a psychotherapist in Florida. He's been on the podcast a few times. He says, once you get to that point, it should only take a few sessions before you get somebody to that point. And if you can do it quickly, then they heal, they move on and life,

life becomes much better quickly. So demystify the therapy first off. But second off, I'll say it like this, with the exception of the sexual abuse, I can relate to every single thing that you are talking about. You had this feeling when you're in the movement. There's a reason why they call it shiny, happy people. You have this feeling like you have to have a façade.

And you keep the façade, that façade is on you even when you leave the group when you've been kicked out. I remember when my whole world crashed to a screeching halt. All my friends had left me, most of my family had left me, cut me off. All my relationships were broken. I still had that façade. And even the first time I went into therapy, I've got this big smile and they're like, you went through all of that and you're smiling. And with it had it not been for a cousin who talked me through it every single week. He would call me every single week. Talked me through it.

I would not be alive today. That's how bad it got. Things were really bad. I'm going to be honest with you. And you go through this. There's the best way to explain it to somebody who's never been through anything like this. There's this technique in the movies whenever they want to show an emphasis on change. And what they'll do is they'll zoom in on the person instantly in the background kind of moves backwards. That's how it feels. It feels like suddenly you came aware that things that you should have understood. You did not. The façade that you're putting up is not real.

Every single aspect about your life is not real. And your world comes crashing down. That's really how it happens. And I'll say this, it puts you into a mental state where first you've left the group or been kicked out or cut off or whatever happened. Then this thing happens and it's even worse than you're being cut off. You suddenly realize that, oh my gosh, not only did I leave my family, my friends, my church, all of these things. Now my world is falling apart. Is the devil punishing me?

That's the first thing that hits you. And then that's really, for most people that I've talked to, that is actually the start of their journey, leaving the church was not, but when the world comes crashing down, that's when they begin their journey.

Yeah, you said, is the devil punishing me? Well, I did not necessarily think that way. I thought it was God, which is worse, right? I thought that the God that I had served since I was a child as a good Catholic girl, and then as a good Protestant girl, again, from like zero to 30 years old, I was very religious, very devout, very like conscientious, never drank, never smoked, never did drugs, I mean, I'm not saying I was a saint, I wasn't, but I mean, I married the first guy that I had sex with, you know?

Like I was, I really took it seriously, that I needed to be this pure and holy vessel. And then, like you said. And to qualify that, we had, they would always go to this passage where God allowed the devil to punish you.

So that's what's going through the back of my mind. It's still God, like you said, but God allowed Satan to do this to me. Yes, yeah, I guess it's safer to say, well, the devil's doing this, but my anger was really directed towards God because yeah, God allowed it.

All this trauma, like why did he allow me to be sexually abused as a child? Why did he allow me to, why did he take my brother? You know, why did he allow me to marry this scumbag, you know?

Why did, why did he allow me to get sucked into this cult? So, but okay, that part, that actually comes a little later. I didn't look at it as a cult yet, as a systemic cult.

I looked at it as a very dysfunctional church. I honestly isolated it at that time to harvest rock church and to chaion. I just thought these are not good leaders. They didn't take good care of me.

So, I went through, you know, all this anger, this grief, this depression, and it pretty much lasted for seven years. For seven years, I did not open my Bible except on Sundays. Now, I still did go to church.

I actually found a more word-based evangelical, non-denominational church. I guess you could describe it as your typical regular church, Protestant church. And the pastors were very strong in the word. And they were, they emphasized character a lot.

My pastor there was a man of solid character. I'm still friends with him to this day. So there were a lot of good things that came out but the hard thing for me was dealing with all these deep seated emotions of anger and depression, despair, and lack of purpose, I guess,

also came in there, right? Because if I'm not a good Christian girl, then who am I? That was my identity for so long.

And then somebody decided, I should go into teaching high schoolers because I had now needed a job. Remember, I was told your role as a woman is as a wife and as a mother and a homemaker.

You should probably be homeschooling your kids. And the idea of homeschooling my kids terrified me, John, because like, I don't know how to teach these kids, but the irony of it is turns out I'm actually a good teacher.

But not at that age, you know? Not at that preschool elementary age. I was a youth pastor. I actually became a youth pastor for a little while while at Harvest Rock Church. And I got along great with the teenagers.

And so when I got divorced, I decided, I'm gonna be a history teacher. So I had my degree in economics. So I could teach economics. I had my secondary degree in psychology. So I could teach psychology if I wanted to.

But what I really wanted to teach was history. And I did not have any history classes in college. So for those seven years, John, I read almost every history book. I could get my hands on.

US history, world history. I just fell in love with history and I realized I was a good history teacher. And you know what history teachers teach? They teach critical thinking. So all of a sudden, something inside of me is waking up.

This part here, this frontal lobe that had been shut down for so long. All of a sudden, it's starting to run again. Like the worrying of the engine inside my brain, you know, it's starting to...

You know, it got a little rusty, you know, I mean, I did well in college. You know, I graduated magna cum laude, but it kind of went dead. It kind of went dead for 10 years while I was with PDI and NOR.

So now in my early 30s, I am having debates with my students. I am having intellectual discussions about philosophy and about history and politics and economics, you know, with my peers, you know, in the history department.

And I discovered a part of me that I didn't even know was in me. My ex-husband, his favorite verbal abuse was, you are the stupidest woman I have ever met. Why did I ever marry you?

I was convinced that I was stupid. And it didn't help that I had pastors telling me, you can't think for yourself. You wanna hear from God, you gotta listen to us. It's okay that you have your own quiet times, whatever.

But if it's not confirmed by a pastor, profit, or a puzzle, then it's not, you know, it's not final. That's not God's final word, because all the final words have to come from the pulpit.

So it took a while, but it was actually, now I look back and you know, those seven years of wandering weren't my wasted years. I used to think that it was, you know, because again, I'm not going to small group meetings.

I'm not going to midweek Bible study. I'm not opening my Bible as much. And I'm just not, I'm just not serving the church.

Maybe I serve here and there, the kids ministry, to help my kids who were in Sunday school. But for the most part, I was living a different life now, John. And most of my friends, shockers of all shockers, none of them are believers.

All my close friends were nonbelievers. They were secular and we were going to bars and drinking. And we were, I know, I did smoke. I saw this smoke because I still wanted to, you know, I'd hit the gym.

That's where I went. I was still into like taking care of my body, but not for religious reasons, right? I just wanted to get back in shape after having three children. And I, I was just living this worldly lifestyle.

And, um, and I, it thinks that a good Christian girl shouldn't be doing. Let's just put it that way. But something happened in 2004. And I had already gone through so much therapy. I feel like I had healed considerably from all my traumas in the past.

And my Christian therapist said, you know, you should go to this retreat. It's not necessarily Christian, but, you know, it's a spiritual retreat. They'll teach you stuff there, like meditation and, you know, just different techniques that are, no one would call them Christian.

I guess you would even call it new AG, I guess. But it's just a way for your soul to get in touch with a spiritual world, but not in a Christian way. Like, I had never been to a retreat like that.

In the past, I would never go to a treat like that. Because, oh, no, no, no, no, that's new AG, you know, like, getting you away from me, Satan, you know, that's all just demonic.

But by now, my mind had been open enough. I was willing to try anything. And my therapist said, yeah, you know what, you're pretty good. I don't think you, you know what, you're pretty good.

And I need to keep seeing each other. So go to this retreat and we'll call it good. And I did. Well, something very unexpected happened at this non-Christian retreat. I encountered Jesus. I really encountered Jesus.

It was the last day of the retreat. I decided to take a walk in the forest. It was beautiful. It was up in the mountains and there was lots of trees and it was like, I don't know, 5 a.m. in the morning.

I felt so peaceful. I felt like I had finally come to a place of contentment in my life. I was now a history teacher. I had been going to my school for my master's degree.

I was going to be an administrator. And everything just looked like it was all falling into place. And then I felt like God was speaking to me for the first time in seven years.

And he was telling me basically like, I miss you. I miss you because I had been doing my quiet times. It wasn't condemning. It wasn't accusatory or judgy. It was just a very... tender moment where he, he said I missed the times when you and I would just talk and then I realized John I wasn't angry at God anymore and the amazing thing is God was never angry that I was angry at him.

I was running away from him because I thought well that's it. I got kicked out of his house. I, I not, you know, I felt, I truly felt like I was a prodigal daughter. You know, I ran far, far away from home. I was surrounding myself with people who did not love him, did not know him and I had just cut off that part of my life, you know, that at one point was so central.

And this time, I don't know, I can't describe it, but I just felt like it was such a gentle, you know, wooing back. The Bible says that he leads us back to repentance, right? He leads us to repentance with his kindness. That's the verse that came to me. Like he was so kind and he was so gentle and I got down on my knees right there in the forest floor and I said, Lord, I am sorry.

I'm sorry I've been away from you. I'm sorry I haven't been reading your word. I'm sorry I was so angry like I just, I'm sorry I did this and I did that. It was just like I was having this confessional right there in the forest and I just felt that presence which I would feel. See, that's a confusing thing. I would feel his presence sometimes when I would be in those big rallies and this, you know, the dim lights and the beautiful music like it was hard for me to distinguish what was really of God and what wasn't. But I knew enough that what happened on that

forest floor was God. That was divine because there was no music, John. At least not here on Earth. Maybe there were violence up in heaven, but there's no music going on. There's no stage lights. It was just me and God and we were having this beautiful reunion. I felt like that prodigal daughter being embraced back. And John, I did not waste time, you know, from that point on from 2004 all the way to date 2026. I really feel like I have a much more meaningful, much more of the and tick walk with the Lord.

It's a lot more simple. I don't need the goosebumps. I don't need the hyper-emotionalism. I just need Jesus. So my life changed in a really good way. I met my husband now in 2005.

He was a, we actually met at the gym before that. But he was just the guy from the gym. You know, like, I invited him to my 40th birthday party. I remember that on a whim, because he's not a close friend.

He's just a friend from the gym. And he accepted right away. And my girlfriends, you know, they met him. And they're like, who is that guy? Oh, he's just a guy from the gym.

And one of my friends, one of my close friends said, no, I think he likes you. Like, oh, no, no, no, no. If he likes me, he would have asked me out a long time ago.

And anyway, he didn't, later on I found out well, he didn't ask me out because I told him I was done with men.

I told him I'm done with dating. So he's thinking, okay, well, I guess I'm not going to ask her out. I guess we're just going to be friends. So anyway, the funny thing is after my 40th birthday party, he did ask me out.

And we did go out and the rest is history. You know, we're celebrating. We got married in July of July 7, 2007. How's that for prophetic? Simple as that. And now I tell my friends, now I just chose that because it makes it easy for my husband to remember our anniversary date.

So next year, July 7, 2027, we will be celebrating our 20th year. So, you know, John, I am happy to say, I'm not going to say I am happy and shiny. Okay, I am not a happy, shiny person.

I have my days. But I wanted to share my days of wandering. And I think I'll stop there and we can continue the rest next time. But I just wanted to really go through my seven years of wandering to encourage your audience, you know, that life doesn't have to stop when you leave the cult.

Because, you know, in the next episode, I'm going to tell your audience how I actually went back to the cult. I decided to go back to NAR in 2020. So that's a different story.

And yeah, after that horrific time in that last NAR church. That's what that was when I was done. Like okay, what was I thinking for me to go back and drink more of that cool aid, you know, but I don't know God had it had his reasons. I'm sure for leading me back to that other nor church But I'll save that for for another day. So yeah, I just want to again say that I'm thankful To you, John, for letting me share my story of my seven years of wandering Obviously I'm very grateful to God that he is the kind gentle

Um, just amazing merciful God that he is that no matter How badly I screwed up during those seven years um He never you know, he never gave up on me and he never left me nor first took me and and um I'm not just like you I'm I can't really articulate what I What I believe in what I don't believe doctrinally, theologically, you know, we can get into those kinds of discussions, I guess at later podcasts, but um What I do know what I what I realized when I encounter Jesus again um in the forest

Is that Following him doesn't have to be complicated You know, it's a day by day step by step hour by hour journey And he's not in hurry. I've heard that before and now I get it, you know now that I'm 60 years old I realize like why was I always In a hurry, you know like in nor it's always the urgency like it's this year The revival is starting this year so you better quick your job you better sell That portfolio and give us all your money because what are you gonna use all that money for that's the stock market's gonna crash

Any moment now like I heard all of these Things um and I think it does something Inside right like it causes you to be anxious and like oh gotta do this and gotta serve here and gotta serve there and And it's all on you again. They put it on you. It's like you have to do this and you know and you're feeling burned out You want to quit and they're like oh, but you're gonna let God down Who's gonna run the kingdom?

Well little did we know John that it wasn't God's kingdom that they were worried about it was this Nor man made kingdom with false kings and the whole falls are oil cord and the whole thing just really needs to crumble down so that we can all serve the real God and seek the real Kingdom.

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I have had more than one heated discussion with people telling me how I should work with the people who have escaped and what I should do so that they don't lose their faith in God.

And the reason it gets heated is because, again, it's their journey. It's not mine. I can't tell them what doctrine to believe, what church to go to, even. I can't tell them even to believe in God because if you have been whipped with a whipped that's named God, all of your life, and suddenly you escape that whip, when somebody says the name God, you're going to think about that whip.

And that's really what's happening here. They're thinking about the whip. They're not thinking about the God in the sky. What I have come to realize is this, there are three things that they really get wrong in these types of churches that we're talking about.

They will tell you, number one, where you go to find God. And so the experience like yours, let's say that can't happen. It didn't happen in a church. It didn't happen with your Christian brothers and sisters.

You can't have that experience, but is God limited to their building or their people? They will tell you, number two, what God looks like. And this one really, this one gets under my skin because it's not really what God looks like that they're talking about.

It's what you must look like so that you resemble their God. That's what it is really when you get down to the, and the third one, and this is the one where it becomes a heated point, is how to maintain God.

I have multiple times got into discussions with people who say, you can't do this, John. You can't let people make their own decisions. They must have a Christian brother or sister with them or they'll leave the faith forever.

They'll be gone forever. Got that limited that he has to work through the ones that you choose and not the people that he chooses And so in the end for me, it's like this They have this box and in this box they're telling you that God's in here and they've poked a little hole And you can see just a little glimpse of what they're saying as God and you go to another church And they've got a hole on the other side Well, those two views aren't the same. They're from a different perspective and then there's a third and a fourth

But when you escape this thing you open up that box and you realize that all of this apostolic network of this thing that they're calling God That's in this box you open it up and it's empty and What is this and more to the point you open it up and there's a whip in there I guess as I you would say it That's what it felt like and so I've worked with numerous people who have escaped and the whip version of God is all they Remember they want no part of it. So if you try to approach them you try to force it

They're going to get actually further away then if you let them make the journey So I just back off I let them make the journey and people who make the journey and come out on the other side They don't always end up in the same place But they end up in a much healthier place than if I tried to push it because I may be wrong in what I even push I in my doctrinal Framework of understanding if it was a mistake of doctrine for 37 years Who am I to tell them what doctrines they must believe I might be wrong

So I tried to tell them well go to the source if you want to know the doctrine you go to the source and 9 times out of 10 You're going to find out that the doctrine that is a Salvation issue for these churches Isn't really in the Bible unless you piece all of these Verses together and try to build something out of it and I've come to the point of my life. I just I don't do this You're not going to tell me to make something make it say something that it doesn't say Yeah, I just want to say one last thing

To this day it really surprises me that where I encountered the real Jesus um was in a Secular new agey spiritual retreat. I mean I was surrounded by Buddhists and Hindu and Atheists and you know meditational Experts and I mean the there were a few Christians I'm not saying that there weren't any Christians one of the facilitators was a former priest, you know um And I think I met like a pastor, you know, who was also one of the participants so It was just this hodge podge of people But one thing we had in common was we were sincerely

seeking truth And Jesus said I am the truth. I am the way. I am the life And so, you know, the interesting thing that happened was I shared my story and some of these people actually started asking me about Jesus. Like, in a very organic, non-like, you gotta accept Jesus in your heart or you gotta go to hell. Like, I have since become a better missionary.

I have since become a better evangelist. I feel ever since I've learned like you to let people just take the journey that they're supposed to take. And I don't try to push them one way or another.

I don't, you know, I'm not there in front of them saying, okay, now go this way, I know that way. You know, like, I, I just support whatever God is doing. I have one son who is not a Christian anymore because he, because of his uncle, to be honest, you know, his uncle, Che.

And he went to Cornell University for undergrad. He took his MBA at Columbia University. He worked for McKenzie. Like, he's this brilliant financial analyst. He is like the smarty pants in the family. And he decided that he is not going to follow the Christian way. And I can't argue and debate with him, you know, I can't, I can't meet him intellectually because I think he's just so, he's just so smart for me. But we have a very close connection, John. Like, we are very close.

Like, like, we, we talk often. And, and once in a while, I'll tell him, I'll tell him about what we do here, you know, in our missions work here in the Philippines. And he's, he's always very interested.

But I really make sure I respect his boundaries, you know. And so I think that even with our own children, we need to let them make their own conclusions, you know, let them do their own research, talk to God themselves. Like you said, go straight to the source. You know, God is so big. Like, he doesn't need our help really. I mean, praying is great. But, you know, I think that's really where a lot of these spiritually abusive churches have gone awry is trying to help God do his job of saving the world. And what they're doing is the exact opposite. I have a friend in the UK.

And he told me that they're church actually led out to go listen to a Bart Irman debate. And if you know who Bart Irman is, he's this guy who he's very, very knowledgeable about the New Testament. He wrote actually one of the textbooks that I have on my desk. It's a great book. He and a Christian scholar wrote the book on the New Testament. But he was at the time in agnostic and he was debating Christian people. But in the course of the debate, through him, you're learning things that you didn't know about the Bible first off. Number two, you're learning that some of the

doctrines don't quite match the record of history. And so you have to kind of, like you said, you have to kind of critically think because he's talking history, they're talking doctrine. And when they don't match, there has to be something that is an answer to this. And what it causes people to do is to go try to find those answers. We in America aren't like this. If you're in an NAR church, they would tell you, if you go there, you're going to get an evil spirit.

That's what's going to happen to you. You're not going to broaden your understanding. You might actually get lured away from the faith. And I will say this. And I think I should qualify this. There is a place for ministers. There is a place for evangelists. But if you remember what those words mean in the Bible, and evangelists is somebody who's spreading the good news. Good news.

Jesus came. He died. We can now be saved. That's the good news. That's what they're spreading. They're not telling body anybody in the cities. You must believe this. We're going to keep pounding into your head until you believe it. They're basically spread the good news. And there's a passage that says if they don't receive you wipe the dust off your feet, go to the next place. And the ministers are, it's the same word as Deacon. They are your servant. But who servant are they? They're the people who come to them to be served. So I've

listened to these ministers who are saying we need to have outreach, which is good. We need to, and they're, they're using language that's basically forcibly convert. We need to forcibly convert all of these people in the city.

That doesn't work. You cannot do this because those people aren't coming to you to be served. They're, they're not under whenever my grandmother, when, when we left the cult, my grandfather came to us after I had already become part of another church. And I just told them, look, I know that you want to do this to me, but you're no longer my pastor. And he still tried and tried to forcibly convert me back into the cult. But it goes back to that, that biblical, that word, the pastor, it is the servant is the person to serve the people. So there

is a place for it. I would, I'll be open about that. But there are people who aren't wanting to be served. And to your point, some of those people, the really good people, genuine people, they're on a journey. But maybe it's just not their time. And if you go to them when it's not their time, then you might do more harm than good, especially If you've been trained under one of these ministries and your doctrine is abusive or abrasive, you're going to push them back further and you may actually hinder them on their journey. So I'm very open to, if I'm working with somebody and I sense that they want a Christian church,

they'll often ask me which church do I go to. I'll never answer this question ever, but I will tell you, here's what this group believes, here's what this other group believes, which one of these fits what you believe, that's how I phrase it. Or I've had people who tell me, I want nothing to do with church ever again, and I'll give them some resources, I've actually given people the Bart Irman resource. What I usually tell those people is, if you're doing this, do it balanced, read something that's pro, read something that's con, and then you can see in between you're going to find some truth.

And what's interesting is, I've actually had more people convert to Christianity after leaving a cult, having gone that path and comparing the two, and I have people who are trying to forcibly convert them, and it's just a weird thing. I'm not bragging, I've not had large numbers, anything like this, but I have learned just simply to let people make the journey, and that's why I kind of stand back. And if you want to go see a minister, if you want to be under Christian church, feel free, that's your decision, that's your part of your journey.

But for me, I just simply say, take the journey, but take it like you said, Pia, take your time, it's not urgent, you don't have to have this fear that God's standing there with the whip, and he's going to beat you, you can do it in your own time.

Yeah, yeah. I wasn't going to share this, but I don't know, I think it fits into what we're talking about here, and then I'll end there. Two days ago, I went to a prison here in where I'm at, it's called Illigan City in the Philippines, and I went to Illigan City, jail, and I met 25 female inmates.

And, you know, how I share Jesus these days, I don't talk about what a great life I have. I talk about how I was abused as a child, I go into detail, I talk about how I lost my brother, I talk about the 10 year domestic violence that I endured, and I, again, I go into detail, because these are women I know can relate.

And when I ask them, do you know what I'm talking about, you know, when you have a husband who's always insulting you or, you know, pushes you to the ground and whatever, and they're like, oh yeah, you know, and they, honestly, many of them started crying.

And, and then I just said, you know, you know how I, I got healed. Jesus, you know, Jesus met me. I told them about my seven years of wandering and I said, you know what?

I was angry. I did things that I wish I hadn't done and I just ended it by saying, I don't care why you're here, right? I don't care about what crime you committed. And I feel God is not looking at you.

Like, oh, you're such a criminal now. Like you're, you know, you're too far gone. And I just said, that's exactly why Jesus died on the cross. You know, because he knows that we are just stinking, rotten sinners that need saving.

And he's here to comfort you. He's here to pour love on you and help you heal from all your past pain. Who would like Jesus to do that for you? And I'm telling you, John, every single woman raised her hand.

All 25 of them, you know, just said the prayer and received prayer and they were crying and they were like, I could sense, you know, and again, I hate seeing this these days because like, oh, God's presence filled the room.

Because again, it's such a cliche, right? Every nor pastor says it. Like he's like, hey, guys, do you feel God's presence and then the drums go to the music and then they dim the lights and like, well, I wasn't feeling it earlier, but now that you say that and now that all of this things are happening, everybody's like, yeah, amen.

Like you get so swept up, right, in all of this. But what I loved about what happened two days ago, there was no music. It was just me and it was just me having a conversation with these women who were desperate.

You said, there's a timing for it. I believe it was the right timing for me to visit and just, you know, simply share the pure gospel. That's all I said. Jesus loves you. That's it.

He died for your sins and he can wash you clean and you can have a brand new start. I mean, that's straight from the Bible. It wasn't a complicated sermon, but somehow it worked and of course, giving God the glory that, you know, he met them.

So I'm really happy that we talked about this John and there was more I was going to say, but it'll have to wait the next time. If you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.

You can find us at www.William-brandom.org and www.piahugoministries.com. For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.