When End-Times Prophecy Becomes a High-Demand Belief System

Music Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Brandham Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Brandham Historical Research, at William-brandham.org, and with me I have my co-host, minister and friend, General Ross, pastor and the voice of the understanding scripture and truth by Chinno D. Ross, YouTube channel.

Chinno, I'm looking forward to today's episode. We're talking about eschatology and intimes, and that is a study that has fascinated me not just because of Hobart Freeman's call, but if you go back in time through all of the different groups that this was built upon, they all have some sort of in-days doctrine that goes to an extreme that is so far outside of the Bible that it becomes destructive.

And you can go back, Charles Fox Parham, the founder of Pentecostalism. He went to study Frank Sanford's cult, and they had a Doomsday date where they all ran to the rooftops and believed that on this very minute, the world is going to end.

And then it didn't end, of course, and they came down from the rooftops. Well, it just kept happening and kept happening, and what happened was the focus became so much on the intimes that they lost focus of the good times. And that's something that, you know, it's probably worthy of a few podcasts, but anyway, today we're getting into Hobart Freeman's version of eschatology, and as it relates to Israel and Doomsday and all of the above, so I'm very glad to talk about this with you.

Well, you know, Dr. Freeman was smart enough, John, not to give a date, and he would say, because he had read his New Testament that no man knows the day or the hour, but he was so creative and crafty and shifty when it came to that.

And I can just remember clearly when I was first beginning to listen to Dr. Freeman, and I knew he was getting ready by the Senate said he said to go down a path of eschatology and the soon return of the Lord, and he would say, no man knows the day or the hour, but, and then there was always a but, but that doesn't mean you can't know the times and the seasons.

And so it just became kind of slight of hand putting the ball under one of the three cups and moving them around fast enough and trying to disguise where the ball was really hidden.

And, you know, originally, I suppose that probably made sense to me. because, you know, I'm literally reading the Bible as Hobart is literally talking about it. No man can know the day or the hour. Well, what about the year? Or what about the month? Let's even get closer. Just says day or hour. What about the month? What about the year? What about the season or what about the general time period? And so he was very crafty with that. And and I think he's not the only one who has used that kind of reasoning. And as I read the Bible now,

when I see that phrase, no man knows the day or the hour, I think that is, it means just what it says in its literary context that you can't predict the timing of the second advent. I don't think you can restrict it today or hour, but you can know that it's going to be February. I don't think that's what the passage is saying at all. I think it's just a short form of no one can know the day or the hour or the month or the year, you know, he can't go into all of that detail. I think it's just an

and abbreviated form of Jesus saying that we won't know we won't be able to predict the coming of of the son of man. We will not be able to predict the second advent. Remember last week we talked about in our first discussion of Freeman's views on eschatology, how so much of his understanding of eschatology was built on the way in which he read the Bible, that he read the Bible as always was written to him and not for him. So when he would see a verse that talked about the last days, literally, I mean, I can see him now literally in his mind. He didn't even think of that being

written 2,000 years ago and written four people 2,000 years ago. I can literally hear him talking and when he would read that himself personally, when he would teach on it, he just thought that was just written to me or to us. So when Peter says in Acts 2 that will come to pass in the last days that God will pour out his spirit, hope I would then turn around and show his own experience in life and what's happened in the 1900s and say, see, see, that was that has been fulfilled. God said, Peter said in the last days, God would pour out his spirit and look, we've seen that happen because

in the last days, which we know we're living in, so it just became a circular argument and it just did not make a whole lot of sense. So I want to talk today about Dr. Freeman, some of his views concerning Israel and the city of Jerusalem. And let me start by saying other share a view of a future position for.

Nick and national Israel. So Hobart is not alone in his belief here at all. And I happen to be clear up front. I happen to share some of those views as well that there is and a future for ethnic and national Israel. And I believe that just based on the whole other subject that we don't do on these podcasts, you know, it's kind of an argument between reformed theology and dispensational theology. But my views are based on just too many old testament predictions that can't in my mind possibly be fulfilled in the church. There are too

many specific land promises with specificity that is so clear that to me it has to refer to a future Israel. And even there they're even reformed theologians. One who has passed in the last decade or so, Dr. R. C. Sproul, who said, even though he comes from the reformed non-dispensational tradition, he said when I read what Paul said in Romans 11 verses 25 and 26, he said, you know, I don't know any other way to honestly interpret that except for Paul to be talking about some type of end of a salvation period for Gentiles, which would be the church. And then we read their Paul said,

and then God said, I'll save all of Israel. So people can disagree on that. And I'm fine with that. I do fall in the camp that where I do believe that Israel, ethnic national Israel has a future in God's plan. So I do share that with Dr. Freeman, but I do not share where we are headed with the rest of this because to me it seems like Dr. Freeman just had such a hyper urgency when it came to him, an urgency in every area of his life. He just, you said this in the introduction, John,

where it seems like, you know, I'm paraphrasing what you said of the good life versus, you know, the second coming, they're all wrapped up in this, where Hobart just seemed to be like a frustrated wandering soul, not content with the normal, regular, peaceful Christian walk on a daily basis.

He was looking for something big. He was looking for the next thing. And that is just plagued Christianity for hundreds of years that people need something that's closer and something that is more urgent than the goal of heaven. You know, that is the Christian's goal, is our goal is to spend eternity with our Savior in heaven. And if you believe it on a regenerated created earth. And that is the ultimate goal. Dr. Freeman, although I'm sure he would say that was a goal. It wasn't really because he just did not believe in death. He just

thinks thought that everything that Jesus did on the crawls, he destroyed him who had the power of death. That's he brews to the devil. He said to the sisters of Lazarus in John chapter 11 on the resurrection and the life. If you believe in me, you will never die. And so he literally took that. If you have enough faith, you will never die. And so he was not really looking for heaven. He was not really looking for eternity. And I think this is characteristic of so much of this movement. As I said, they have needed

a closer, more urgent goal than heaven. So they're just looking for the next big thing. The thing I'll get into here in a minute has to do with Hobart's views on Israel and the city of Jerusalem. There's an interesting study. It's not one that I have done, but talking about the discontent. Whenever this movement began, it began with a discontent. It was on the heels of World War II and they were all expecting a World War III. People just weren't very satisfied. And going to mainstream churches where they're only preaching the gospel, people would say things like, well, that's the ABCs. We need

to move on to the algebra. In fact, that's a quote, almost verbatim from what Brannum said. They were looking for something to appeal to their anxiety, I guess you would say. But what happened is really weird. And it's a study that I think somebody should do. The psychology behind that created a lot of the doctrines that flowed from that. And then people who were just otherwise discontented would join in the movement thinking that this is where you would find contentment. Think of all the ailments. I'm sick. I'm afflicted. Well, if I join this movement, they're going to appeal to that sick and afflicted condition, even if I never,

ever get healed from it. So people were coming just discontented. And what happened over time is as they weren't healed and I grew up in this world, there were people who were just so sickly that they were angry at the world, angry at the outside world. And this was a place where you could venture anger at the outside world. So it almost becomes therapeutic if that makes any sense. It's really it's a study that needs to happen and it needs to be by somebody who's a lot more familiar with psychology than I am. But combined that with the end times eschatology that was

being taught by the movement, we're the Joel's army, we're a discontent people and we're going to form an army and we're going to angrily take over the world. Now fast forward to Hobart Freeman, he's not saying anything new. We are the over comers. We're the ones who are going to overcome this thing. I've got, um, through thanks to you and work that we've done together with all of the documentation. I was reading through a lot of his old testament studies. This is a person who really knew the Old Testament. He knew all of the passages

from which the Joel's army was taken from. But yet he was more content to use the latter vein, latterane version of that eschatology than he was his biblical studies. So take sound biblical principles, flip it on its head, and it appeals to the discontented. That's really how this thing developed. You're really on to something, John, from everything at the start of what you said to the end. Yeah, the angst and someone does need to do a study on this. People are not content with what I said, just the peaceful Christian walk on a daily basis. They're not content with that. They're

they're looking for something else than you went on to talk about Hobart's own life. You know, he was poor and he had all kinds of childhood afflictions and illnesses and injuries. You know, he's looking for a cure. He wasn't finding anything. He enters into the charismatic movement.

The name and enclaim it, health and wealth. All you have to do is say it. If you say it and say it long enough and don't doubt in your heart and confess it and and act on it and endure it, then you're going to get it. Even if you have to wait 25 years like Abraham did for Isaac. Wow. I mean, that is exactly right. And then things don't happen. And so they do become frustrated. And you can definitely hear that in the end of Dr. Freeman's life. And I don't know if that's true in other ministers. But in the end of his life, he was he was bitter, angry man. He had drawn a

circle around himself so small. He was the only one that could barely stand in that circle on his tiptoes. And yeah, he did have a fairly healthy background as far as his training was concerned in Old Testament studies. First, it Southern Baptist seminarian Louisville and then it grace theological seminary, a brethren seminary in Winona Lake, Indiana. And he did have, you know, good principles from that. That's why that is why he was so dangerous because he did know the Old Testament and the new and he could quote and people who were looking for a deeper walk

with the Lord heard all this profuse quotation and reference to biblical passages. And that was spun along with all of the Smith Wigglesworth John G. Lake tales. And it was impossible for the people to pull the two apart and figure what is really biblical and what isn't. And I have listened to enough of Hobart, I think I've listened to more of Hobart than Hobart's died in the wall followers have.

You know, I am listening to this day, unfortunately, just to stay, so it's fresh. So it's not from 40 years ago in my mind, only died in the wall, freemenites are still listening to Freeman tapes.

I guarantee you the ex ministers who, you know, Steve Hill and Barnett, they've long abandoned Freeman's principles they go to the doctor, have insurance, vote, wear Nike shoes, practice birth control, whatever he said, don't do, they don't agree with any of that, but I'll tell you what, they're not listening to his tapes and in listening to his messages, I, as I said earlier today, hear this frustrated wandering soul who is very discontent with his own Christian life and with anything that is available out there.

So when I first started listening to Hobart in 1976, that story occasionally would come up how he was fired from his former teaching position. Let me see if I can give the chronology of this and the actual facts, his version versus the seminaries version.

Early on, when I say early on, I'm talking about late 1960 and early 1970 messages, Hobart occasionally referenced, because it was brand new, it only happened, you know, six, eight years prior to that time period, so it was new in his life.

He would occasionally reference his being fired by his former employer, Grace Seminary. And at the very beginning, when he would, when he would mention that, he would, I would say he would, he took the higher road, I could pull out of my notes that I keep over here to my right, which I won't take the time to do it.

I could pull out the very message and the time stamp on it where he references that, but this is an early tape, an early tape recording. He references that and he pauses and you can tell he is mentally debating and you know, he, because he goes on to tell you what he was thinking, he pauses and he hesitates and you can tell, he's trying to decide should he tell why he got fired or not.

And he just pauses and he's talking and then he said, you know, the Lord just spoke to me and just said, that's enough. I'm not going to say anymore. I'm going to take the high road and so he doesn't say anything.

So you're totally in the dark on why he was fired. By the time I'm listening to him, he is another five, six, seven years removed from that. His, his church has grown astronomically. So you're in a more comfortable position to be feeling killing your oats and feeling like, I'm gonna tell the story because no one can hurt me.

You know, earlier, he was rattling around in a living room with two dozen people. Now he's got several hundred people in the congregation. So he goes on and tells the story and he doesn't really tell any details but he always says it like this.

Well, you know, the reason that I got fired, it was because of my wife. And so that's kind of humorous first of all. You're thinking, where is he going with this? But he's not going her under the bus at all.

It's just kind of a joke, but you're wondering where he's going. And then he says, it's because she wouldn't attend a Christmas party. So we knew what Hobart's view was on Christmas that he did not celebrate Christmas, didn't have anything to do with that.

And there was evidently some type of, you know, faculty or wives of faculty members party and it was around Christmas time. And June chose his wife, June Freeman chose not to go. And so he always traced his firing back to the fact that his wife, June Freeman did not go to the Christmas party.

And of course, that's what we all believe. We thought, wow, man, that's praise God that June stood on her convictions of that anti-Pagan holiday celebration thank God June stood on her convictions and that is terrible that a seminary would fire a professor just, he didn't do anything wrong, you know, he's innocent.

He's like a lamb led to the slaughter, he's blameless. He didn't do anything wrong. This is Dr. Freeman at his best, John, and telling stories where he was crafty, he was shifting, he was not an honest human being.

I hate to say that. I would not have believed that when I was 17, but now I know he was simply not an honest human being. So he traces his firing back to his wife not going to a Christmas party.

The people at the seminary, including John Davis, who became the president, one of several presidents over the years of grace theological seminary and who was also a student of Dr. Freeman's. He was working on the identical degrees when Hobart was there, that Hobart had earned himself and that is Dr.'s degree in Old Testament, Dr.'s degree in Hebrew.

So he was close to Dr. Freeman and new Dr. Freeman. And he is the one in the year prior to Dr. Freeman's death, who was an outdoor writer for the Warsaw Times Union newspaper and who did that three or four part series on Faith Assembly and who was the only member of the media who was granted interviews with Dr. Freeman and went to his...

home and interviewed him. I always was amazed that Dr. Freeman did that because he, for bad, any communication with the media by any members of the church. But, you know, he's so much like the Pharisees in Jesus' day. He would make laws, but then he would find ways by which he could circumvent him. You know, that's why Jesus, I think in Matthew 23, says, when the scribes in Pharisees sit in Moses' seat, in other words, when they are biblically teaching the Old Testament, all that they tell you to do, but don't follow their actions because they say and do not.

And here Dr. Freeman was a clashed example. No member of the church was allowed to talk to the media, but he gave an interview, several interviews to Dr. Davis. So, when you look at what Dr. Davis and what the seminary actually said about the firing, you know, it's way more than you would have realized. And it makes sense. And it didn't have anything to do with June not going to a Christmas party. What university would fire or even would have the ability within a legal setting or contract to fire a husband because the wife didn't show up at a party. If you just think about it as an adult,

you know, no, that is a smokescreen. That is definitely not true. What they said is that Dr. Freeman had earned his degree there, but he was persistently this kind of person who was manifesting this spirit of arrogance. He was combative. He was divisive. He was insubordinate. He couldn't be blatant with it because, you know, he was employed by the seminary, but it was always this undertone that he knew better than the other professors. And doesn't that sound like Hobart Freeman?

That he was smarter than someone else who had earned a degree in that area. Hobart knew more than they knew. And so what happened is they terminated his employment. First of all, he was ex-communicated by the brethren denomination. That's a huge deal. You were ex-communicated. You were no longer officially a part of the brethren church, but then the seminary, which was a brethren seminary, terminated his employment. And listen to this, they not only terminated his employment mid-season, but they bought out his contract. Now there are a whole lot. I don't know how familiar people in listening land out there are with universities and seminaries, but you know, they have

budgets. They have calls constraints they are under. And if you're going to buy out a person's contract mid semester, mid term, mid year, that class still has- be taught because you have students already signed up for that. So now you've got to pay another person to teach that class while you're paying Dr. Freeman who's sitting at home because he's been fired. What that tells me is there were very significant reasons for his termination there at Gray Seminary that had nothing to do with June not going to the Christmas party. So that is, as Paul Harvey would say, the rest of the story.

It is uncanny how similar Hobart Freeman was to Branham in so many different ways. Stretching the truth is one example, but stretching the truth about how it's the woman's fault. It's textbook example of Branham. There was this point in time in which I was studying the history of the Branham Tabernacle, which was my grandfather's church. And I was suddenly surprised when this husband and wife they drove here and they were looking in the archives and they found before William Branham had taken over the church, it was a Pentecostal church. And to anybody who's in the Branham movement, this just blows your mind because there's this life story that

is like the prophetic history of Branhamism. How he rejected the Pentecostal call because of his mother-in-law. He literally said, my mother-in-law made me reject those Pentecostals. This holy roller she would call them. And so for years, I had dodged the Pentecostal call and he blames his wife's death on his mother-in-law's causing this. He said that because I strayed and I listened to my mother-in-law instead of joining the Pentecostals, God killed my wife and my first daughter, killed him in the 1937 flood. So anyway, I'm digging through all this history and they showed me that, wait a minute, he was Pentecostal before he even met his wife. There's no way that

she did this. And so logically, you think, okay, well maybe he stretched the truth just a little bit. Maybe he was Pentecostal but didn't go all the way. You go through these leaps in your mind.

Well, I started looking at the people who visited his Pentecostal church before he married his wife. And these are big names in the Pentecostal movement. He and Roy Davis were apparently trying to invade Pentecostalism and were inviting the big names from Cincinnati, from Indianapolis.

And that's essentially how he eventually got connected with Chaplain Ray Raymond Hoekstra. And because of all of these connections, I started to realize that number one, he's not being honest about his past. Number two, the mother-in-law, now that I think about it, it was more of a joke that appealed to the crowd. I can joke that my mother-in-law caused me to do this and he probably got a laugh out of a few people. But it wasn't true and he continued telling it and it actually entered the mythology as part of his fake history. Well, that's the way with most of his fake history, not much

of it is actually true. And that sounds so similar to Hoekstra. Barton June in the Christmas Party story. People have wondered, I'm sure John over the years, what really happened at the seminary. And of course, Hobart was so, by the time he's teaching in the glory barn, so anti-denominationalism, so anti-Seminary.

He would use that Freudian slip and say, when you go to seminary, I mean seminary, because it was, you know, a pejorative reference to seminary, even though he had training, you know, there. Of course, there's always, he was always the exception.

That's what is just so amazing. And then he had compared himself to Moses. Well, remember, Moses was trained in all the wisdom of Egypt so that he could help you poor, dumb, Israelites slaves.

And Hobart was the same way. Well, God used the seminaries, I was trained in all the wisdom of denominationalism so that I could teach you the errors of all of that. And you know, when you're first listening to Hobart and you're a kid like I was, it all makes sense.

It's all very dramatic, it's all humorous. You know, he just set the table really well for being opposed to the seminaries where actually, you know, he, so much of his teaching on the sermon on the Mount, his teaching on eschatology, by the way, came from grace, theological seminary.

You know, he didn't come up with any of that stuff on his own. He learned all of this, but then would never fairly give credit where credit was due. And that's, you know, it's difficult.

All of us need to try to do a better job to say, you know, and people should realize, it should realize them when they listen to you and I speak on, and we are 100% willing to acknowledge we were born with an empty head.

You know, all human beings were, but for some reason ministers or these big time ones are able to get people to think that they've just always known this stuff. None of us have always known anything.

We were born knowing nothing and we have slowly learned and we've learned from good sources and bad sources. We've learned from all kinds of sources. That's just the way human beings acquire knowledge. This Dr. Davis, the one John Davis who interviewed, Hobart in his home in 1983, just a year before Hobart was to die, which, you know, nobody knew in 1983, Hobart only has a year left.

I don't know if you remember this, Sean, but I told this story several years ago when we went over those newspaper interviews and articles that Dr. Davis wrote, the last time Dr. Davis interviewed Hobart, again, a just blown away that he had led someone from the filthy rags, as he called them, from the media, the newspaper come in and interview him.

The last time John Davis interviewed... When he left, Hobart said, this ominous warning, I just want to let you know, in case you don't, that the last person that spoke negatively against me, they were in a bad car wreck and they died afterwards.

And John, who was a normal human being, John was a great professor. I appreciated a lot of theological work that Dr. Davis did. He was big into archaeology. I think he made 40 or 50 trips to Israel.

He was a great professor. I'm jumping ahead of myself. By the way, John, Dr. John Davis just died earlier this year. I think he was almost 90 years of age. So think of that in light of now, I'm going to backtrack and say what I was going to say.

So Hobart said, just want you to remember that the last person who spoke against me, you know, touched my anointed and do my profits no harm. They love that verse. It was in a bad car accident.

And so John Davis, who as I was saying, was just a completely normal human being who had a great sense of humor wrote in the his newspaper article. He said, I assume he said that for my benefit.

And so here John goes out Hobart is dead within a year. Dr. John Davis lives for another 46 years. That just shows you don't trust any of these ignoramuses who go around threatening people like Dr. Freeman did.

And he's not done all these people, John. They threaten people all the time. And look who is still alive. I'm still alive. You're still alive. Hobart Freeman is long since dead. Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transition through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation?

You can learn this and more on William Brannum Historical Research's website, William-Brannum.org. On the book's page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon and others, with links to the paper, audio and digital versions of each book.

You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top.

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You said I'm still alive and I may be alive hanging on by a thread. Whenever I left the movement, there were a lot of, I don't know what you call them. They weren't prophecies because they weren't from prophets, but there were people who were quote unquote prophesying that my wife would leave me, I would end up dying, I would lose my job, my car, all of this stuff, and you know, it would have made a great country song, had it involved beer, but they don't drink beer, so none of that happened.

I started looking at, when I was looking at Jones Town, and I was looking at, there's a point in time in which the majority of the revival has started to rise up against Brannum and said, we don't want your anti-Semitic and racist stuff, referring to the Serpent Seed doctrine.

Brannum mentions this himself on recording, he said, 300 ministers rose up against him. Well, this was the point in time in which Jim Jones rose up against Brannum, so Brannum was so far beyond the good of Christianity that even Jim Jones, as evil as he was, he denounced Brannum.

And the irony in all of this is Jones said almost the same way that you did, look at Brannum, he came out against me and his heads chopped off in a car rack, mine, I'm still living.

And Jones goes on to his own destruction, yes. But that shows the mindset of the people in the movement. Here the elite, back to the Joel's army theme, where the elite, those who challenge are going to die.

That was the mindset that was being projected in the movement. And I can tell you from experience having been in the movement, that's the mindset of the majority of the people against anybody in the grocery store who might pull the cart in front of them in line.

Well, that person is cannon fodder, they're going to eventually be dead and I'm going to walk out on their ashes. That's the, maybe not the first thought that goes through your head, but you're thinking along those lines, these are evil people, I'm the good people.

And it all comes back to the way the leader is presenting themselves in the gospel. It's not a gospel of love, it's a gospel of hate. And that's whenever I began to realize after the summation of all of my research, I had to come to terms with the fact that I was actually in a hate group.

It had not been nationally categorized as one, but it was teaching people to hate other people. Yeah. Again, you're on to something there, John. You know how much I have been despised over the years by Freeman followers.

And I'm a Christian, I'm a fellow believer, but no, there's no love at all. You speak against their leader or their group and you are quickly isolated. I guess I maybe had never thought of it as being a hate group, but I can definitely see that it probably was because this much, I know, it was not a group that stressed, talked or practice Christian love, they just weren't.

So if you're not that, you know, what do you have left? You're probably the opposite, you're a hate group. There was not a spirit of Christian love. Now, they would say they had it for one another unless you disagreed with brother Freeman, and then you would be on the outside.

I mean, everything goes back to brother Freeman said this, brother Freeman taught that, and brother Brannum said this, brother Brannum said that, you have to agree with the leader. There's no room for independence.

There's no room for questioning. There's no room for challenging. There's no room for just saying you do realize you're an absolute idiot with what you just ought. You know, there's no room for any of that at all.

So back to Dr. Freeman and Israel. So a lot of people do hold to the view that God has a future, even as we speak today, for ethnic national Israel. You can agree with that or disagree with that.

That's fine. Dr. Freeman had more, some more specific things in mind. It'd be one thing just to have, you know, a general view that God is not done with Israel. The promises he may daybraham and the other patriarchs were land promises, and they don't apply to the church.

They're actual land, and it's going to be a great deal. It's going to be Israel's land. He at Hobart had a more specific timetable involved, and it revolved around two things. Number one, and they were both dates.

Number one, 1948. Number two, 1967. And I don't know what brand I'm if he even had any beliefs about this. 1948, the end of the Second World War, Palestine has been a British mandate for a good period of time.

The Turks were in control before the British were, the United Nations get involved. The Zionist movement had begun in Switzerland back in the, let's say the 1880s. There was a migration happening of ethnic Jewish people to Palestine.

What happened in Nazi Germany just accelerated that obviously. The Jews saw, we're not safe anywhere, we need to go back to our motherland, which was an incredible event, and it makes for a fascinating story and historical reading of the migrations happening from, especially Europe, but from around the world, of Jewish people going back to Israel.

And so most people know this story, you know, in the, the United Nations was willing to divide the land of Palestine and give a certain part to the Jewish people, a certain part to the Palestinians, the Jewish people were okay with that, the Palestinians were not.

Whenever the British pulled out, it was pretty much a free for all, you know, whoever wins gets to have the land. And so in May, if I remember correctly, of 1948, Israel fought, you know, it was a war.

She fought the Palestinians, she fought the supporters, the surrounding Arab nations. She declared herself an independent state and became known as the nation or the state of Israel in May of 1948. I'm not saying that's not historical, of historical importance, but some people have, as you will see, if we don't get through today, we'll continue next week, John, they've elevated it to a real high level of importance.

And I'll explain what I mean by that later. And then the second and maybe even the more important event for Hobart occurred in 1967. Remember that he entered the charismatic movement just one year prior to that in 1966 in March, March the 19th, when he goes to McCormick Theological Seminary in Chicago, attends a full gospel businessmen's meeting at the invitation of his former colleague, Dr. John Ray, a former professor at Grace Seminary, and Hobart in June enter into the Pentecostal or charismatic movement in March of 1966.

So literally one year later, you have what has become known as the Six Day War. And Israel had already had her nation since May of 1948, but she possessed very, very little of her capital city, which was the city of Jerusalem.

And so in June of 1967, there was the Six Day War during which, after which the Jewish people were able to take possession of the vast majority of the city of Jerusalem. So you have two really big events.

One in 1948, the establishment of Israel as a sovereign state or nation, which she had not been in, what, 2,500 years, even during the time of Jesus, she was under Roman rule, prior to that Greek rule, prior to that Meadow Persian rule, prior to that Babylonian rule, which began in 606 BC, prior to that she was her own independent Southern Kingdom of Judah with the capital in Jerusalem.

So these are really important dates, 1948 and 1967. And I, in 1976, I'm hearing all these things, I don't know any Jewish history, you know, I'm learning this from listening to Dr. Freeman, tie all of this together.

And some of what he said, I think, was accurate and his interpretation of some of this was inaccurate. Looking back, I had to tell myself, and knowing how hyper urgent and hyper dissatisfied hope our it was, it's just a normal Christian believer.

He's always looking for what is the next thing, the latter rain, the overcomers, the manchild, the healing of my foot, Israel's got her city back. I mean, he's always, so this is huge for him as a person newly introduced into the charismatic movement.

Wow, one year after that, he sees a fulfillment in his mind of biblical prophecy that the Jews have their capital city of Jerusalem back. I know in looking back on what his interpretation of this was, John, that he wanted to believe, obviously, that this was of supreme significance in biblical prophecy, and I'm not saying that it's not important.

I'm just saying that these two dates 48 and 67, especially the latter of these become time tables for Hobart to base all of his eschatology on, which then negatively went on to affect the lives of all of his followers because by his interpretation of what happened in 1967, he is able to convince them that not only are we living in the last days, but we don't have much time left, because of what happened in 1967 that the Jews got their city back.

And so the ramifications of that were, people made no preparation for their future. So Hobart wanted to believe something, he felt he was in the last days, this is gonna happen during his lifetime.

And so now, this hyper connection to the Jewish people getting their city back, and where I'm going with this, if people wanna look in their Bible, it's Luke 21, the second half of verse 24.

I heard this verse all the time, all the time, and it was tied into the six day war of June in 1967. And so if that is the correct interpretation, then guess what, Hobart's right.

They got their city back, whenever they get their city back, that means this verse has been fulfilled, and guess what that means? We're on the door, we're at the doorway of the second advent.

And that sounded good. Just put yourself back in the late 1960s. That sounds really good then, even in the 70s, that sounds really good. For people who are brain dead, listening to us today, we are living John in 2026, so it does it sound.

Too good today, but I'm trying to forget about that for a moment and pretend like I'm living in 1971 When Hobart was saying these things Wow Jerusalem's gonna be trotting down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled times of the Gentiles are fulfilled because The Jews have their city back now Wow And you know he goes on to say other things which I will say Which I think he said completely incorrectly But I didn't know it at the time But I'm but putting myself back to 1968 or 1972 or even when I first heard him in 1976

I'm only nine years removed from the Jews getting their capital city back So you know in those days it made the hair on the back of your neck stand up thinking I Mean I've read my Old Testament. There were prophecies and predictions of the first advent Think if you were living during the days of the first advent now I think I see a prophecy of the second advent So I'm living at the threshold of the second advent and it sounds all good That's why going back to a comment on me last week John. That's why when Hobart is

Relaying this vision someone had of a calendar of the 1970s and those pages flipping over towards the end and the vision becoming fuzzy And the interpretation is you know the 70s are pretty much going to wrap everything up if you had been indoctrinated with his view on Luke 21-24-B Is a fulfillment of the June 1967 Six-Day War I mean he has this soed up so tightly That you you are bound to believe that why why save for the future? Why plan for retirement? Why go get a college degree?

It's all unnecessary because we're living right here on the threshold of the second advent It's funny hearing you talk through this because most of what you mentioned to a follower of Hobart Freeman is something that he brought new and fresh and exciting and Tickled the itching ears But if you go to my website or you just go online to any website that has the voice of healing magazines Open up the 1948 issues and turn towards about the middle or the end of the issue You're going to see they're talking about what's called The year-end prophecy. There's different ways that they titled it

But essentially it had all these schematics of Israel was formed here We have Germany rising here and therefore the 144,000 are coming And when I mention that word it's Riggers almost every group that has descended from the Latter-Ein movement.

They hear 144,000 and all of the doctrines go off. Even in my head, you're taught that it's the End Times Army, you're taught all of these different things. Well, all of that was commonplace, common knowledge.

It didn't take a profit. They just opened up the magazine and they read it. And the magazine itself was a cross-pollination of ideas, so everybody's teaching this kind of stuff. But think about the different views of eschatology just simply for the number of 144,000.

Is it a literal Israel? Is it a spiritual Israel? You've got different pathways to take it and all of those can exist in a Christian, in a healthy Christian church. It's those that take it and say, no, this 144,000 is an End Times Army that's going to come and they're going to invade the nations.

And we, as Christians, are part of this End Times Army that's going to do it. That's where it gets a little bit destructive because how does that play out? You're faced with a question, who's actually in power?

Are they waiting for Jesus to return, like the Bible says? Or are they waiting to conquer so that Jesus can return? And in the end, most groups ended up where they must conquer first and then Jesus can return.

Yeah, John, and you're just anticipating where you and I are going in the future with this for sure. And you said it perfectly, is Jesus coming first, or does this group have to do something first in order to prepare the way for Jesus to return?

And you're definitely right. The latter is Hobart's interpretation. And so you have, what is so fascinating in our, in you and I working on this together is, I'm definitely an expert, quote unquote, when it comes to Hobart Freeman in his ministry.

And I know some, I'm no expert at all. I know some of all of the Pentecostal Charismatic history in the early part of the 20th century. I think you know a lot more about that than I do.

What I have found fascinating, and I hope what Dr. Freeman's followers who listen to this or ex followers have found fascinating is that there is hardly a thing that he taught that was not borrowed, plagiarized whatever word you want to use from people that came before him, including what you just said.

And I didn't realize this. And that is his take on the 144,000. That's talked about twice in the Bible. Once in Revelation seven, again in Revelation 14. And you know I'm teaching a study on Revelation.

We're past chapter seven. We're not anywhere close to chapter 14 yet. I have my own views on that. What I did not understand, I did not know that Hobart had as many connections just in every form and fashion as he did.

And as you have indicated, I do remember looking on your website at some of those voice of healing magazines. And I do remember 1948 and I do remember them making big to-do's about it.

And of course, they're not the only ones. It's not just in charismatic circles, there are plenty of non-charismatic who have nothing to do with the charismatic pinnacle-so-movement, but they're in the evangelical church who are always seeing Russia as Gog and May Gog and they'll look at Gog, May Gog, Mishek, Tubal, all of these words, all of these names in these first few verses in Ezekiel 38.

And so as soon as Russia does anything, I'm talking about Russia today, as soon as Russia does anything today, boom, well that's Ezekiel 38 in verse 14. As soon as anything happens in Turkey, in Germany, in Russia, in India, in China, as soon as anything happens, that's got to be a fulfillment of a verse.

So that is that, again, on that hyper urgency that these people have, nobody's content thinking the fault, I may become a Christian as I did when I was 15 years old, I may become a Christian when I'm 15 years old and live to be, I hope I live till I'm 85, as long as I'm still in good health, and die, and never see the second Advent, you know, because we have just been burst and trained in a society where being alive at the second Advent is just like the most important thing.

And where does a Bible ever teach? That's the most important thing. The most important thing is living a faithful, regular, daily, weekly, monthly, yearly, decade long, two decades, three, four, five, Christian life, and not get to see your shadow touching anyone, healing them instantly as Peter saw.

Not getting to see any of these things, there we are again. People read the Bible as though this is written to me, and I want to see all of these things happen. What happened?

Where did it go, John? Just a view that you can live your whole Christian life and live it honestly, and live it faithfully, and live it to God's glory, and live it with heaven's approval, and not have raised any dead people, and not be alive at the second Advent.

You know, there's something, something about this whole generation in which I have been born and lived that has... just mischaracterize so many things in the Bible. And so people have lost their way in their Christian life.

And it's real sad. And so everyone is looking for, well, maybe as we talk before we got into eschatology, maybe, maybe the problems in my life, while I haven't seen, maybe I have a demon.

So maybe I need to go through deliverance. You know, there are all of these shortcuts that people have come up with rather than just living a lifelong, faithful, consistent, heaven-approved Christian life. And we've been trained to think that that's, there's something less about that.

And it's not exciting. You know, it's not exciting. It's not exciting to come home from being gone all day at work and opening the Bible because there's a passage you were meditating on that day when you were at work or traveling, and you just can't wait to get home and read it in its context.

I oftentimes feel that way. I've thought about a verse. And I'm just real curious, what's the context of that? You know, before I go down a path of knowing what it means, I can't wait till I get home to open my Bible and to read it.

And I just think that's nothing new. And it shouldn't be anything special. It should be something that we all experience, rather than looking for this big conference that's going to be held in some city.

And it's a three-day conference. And it's a 199 registration fee. And if you will come to this, God is going to meet you in such a way and your whole life is going to be changed.

I don't think that's the way God works. I don't think you can schedule the Holy Spirit moving. I don't think that's the way He works at all. I think He works regularly, normally, and in a quiet and still small voice.

The sad truth is most of the people listening to this podcast have been impacted by a high-demand group and don't really fully understand the concept of what that means. The high-demand group is taxing your mind.

Sometimes it's tacking your body. Sometimes it's taxing your sleep. But really, really taxing your emotions. And the greatest taxing of your emotions is fear. This movement was built on fear. And some of the things that they talk about, the Bible does support.

The Bible talks about fantastic things that can happen to you as a Christian. But it talks about the other side too, way more than it talks about the fantastic things. What person in this movement who's expecting to come to a high-demand sermon is gonna sit there while the pastor says, you're probably going to live a boring life.

You're probably gonna get sick. You might get better from being sick. You're probably going to live to a ripe old age and never see Jesus return. You're probably never going to see anything exciting happen in your life.

You may just work, come home, watch TV, go to bed. rest of your life. But God is with you. What kind of a person in the eye to main group is going to even sit through that? But yet, the Bible does support both. It supports the fantastic things that happen in select cases.

And it talks about the things that's going to happen as blessings to you that you can have peace. And that's really, if anything can come out of this podcast from my side, that's really what I want to say is you can have peace.

You don't have to have all of these other things. And maybe we can help somebody find peace. So thank you so much for doing this. Yes, amen to all you just said. Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at William-Branum.org.

For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR. Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.