Why Deliverance Ministries Keep Failing: The Hidden Pattern

Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at William-Branham.org and with me I have my co-host, minister and friend, Chen O Ross, pastor and the voice of the understanding scripture and truth by Chen O D Ross YouTube channel. Chen O is good to be back into kind of wrapping up on deliverance. This episode is going to tie together with a lot of different themes that I've had with some other co-hosts recently. I don't know in the order of the schedule if this comes out

before or after but I had a whole episode talking about narcissistic personality disorder recently with another co-host and actually multiple co-hosts and it seems like there is a connection between a personality disorder and what is enabling a cult leader to do what they do and the sad part about this is the people who are caught in the middle being the ones who are in the pews have no idea that most of what they see is not really spiritual. This guy's got a mental health issue going on and they can't distinguish between the two because we've talked about this before. They have twisted the meaning of discernment in

these movements so discernment isn't actually discerning the spirits of good and evil as the Bible is talking about. It's this health and wealth thing that they tried to create so if people actually were sitting in their pews and had discernment they would say oh I know why that guy's acting like that. He's crazy.

You know we spent the last time John looking at some of what Hobart has said in this ridiculous little track called a cult oppression and bondage how to be set free just it was really weird and his book entitled Angels of Light honest answers to end confusion and the book is anything but that. I think the book if you hadn't read it if you would sit down to read it and you were reading it in an effort to understand deliverance you'd be more confused by the time you got through because the way he lists all of these things just any kind of

anything that you've ever done besides fold your hands and cross your legs and sit in a corner for the rest of your life anything you've ever done probably has some kind of as he would pronounce it occult so kind of occult connection and therefore you would have opened a door. Whether innocently or otherwise, you would have opened a door and you're probably experiencing problems in your life because of something that you have done somewhere in your life. And we ran down the list of, you know, fortune tellers and visiting a religious cult and even experiencing, you know, a traumatic

occurrence in your life. He was really big on things like that, that that would open a door to some type of demon that would come into you and and you would have to have deliverance from that later in your life. I can tell you something else and I've often heard him say, he said, without exception, if you are adopted, you had to go through occult deliverance for being adopted.

Simply because you're your parents rejected you so you can tell where he's going to go with his psycho babble psycho analysis with that. You've got these latent insecurity issues in your life and I'm not saying that a person wouldn't have things like that but I don't think you can call a demon possession or a person needing a deliverance session. Maybe they need and they probably do some really healthy counseling and some really, you know, healthy Bible study because who wants to think that neither one of my parents wanted me and I was put up for adoption. So anyone in that

church, anyone under Hobart Freeman, the sound of his voice who had been adopted knew, you know, I've got demons. I mean, you're already pigeonholed. You're already pigeonholed as a person who has demons because of something you had no say so over and that was it that your parents did not want you put you up for an adoption agency and hopefully a loving couple adopted you. So just about every part, this is the way Hobart would have seen it and said it, of your personality can be a demon.

This is why I don't think any of this could be called honest answers to end the confusion. I think it just creates more confusion. Any part of your personality, your traits, what gets you up, what brings you down, what motivates you, what makes you sad, what inspires you, your inclinations, your quirks, you know, all of the things that we would say are what make you, you, anything that all of these things that make up your personality. Some I'm sure would come from what we call nature and some would come from nurture. That's the age old the

eight in social sciences and in education and psychology, how much comes from nature? That is, it's inherited, it's in your genetic makeup, and we know that a lot comes from that, our eye color, our hair color, our height, and not just physical dispositions, but psychological things are inherited versus how much comes from nurture, and that is, you're upbringing, because depending on the environment, the home setting, in which we were all raised, those types of scenarios have profound influences on us for the rest of our life.

So you could be anywhere from, say, left, if you're anywhere left, hope art would say, of normal, or anything right, of normal, then you probably have a demon. But what is normal? What in the world is normal?

I would say this, I know you're not normal. You're mean to me. Almost every time we have a Monday Morning podcast, we do this little video and audio sound check to make sure everything is good, and here I am trying to be nice, happy on a Monday morning, and I say, John, does everything look good?

And you go, channel everything looks good, except your face. I mean, you're just mean. You're just plain mean. So, you know, you're not normal. I'm not normal, because I think that's hilarious. That doesn't offend me at all.

So there's no way I can be normal. You're definitely not normal. So what is normal? You know, only hope art, Freeman, I think, was normal, and all of the rest of us would definitely be abnormal.

Actually, the way that I put it to you to begin with is I was so glad when you joined the podcast, because before you joined, I was the ugliest man on YouTube. So anyway, all of that aside, I'm glad that you went to the Nature versus Nurture, because I've actually been wanting to do a podcast, a whole podcast on this.

I'm not a psychologist, so I'm waiting for the right co-host to come on who can talk through it with some expertise, but there is a chain of events that happened that is due to exactly that, that led to a whole slew of weird doctrines.

In fact, what you're talking about there with the adopted child, if you really understand where that came from, William Brannum was bringing into the revival movement, the idea that your bloodlines really mattered as far as your Christianity and your salvation.

People didn't catch on that it was a racist idea, and that all of that ideology really came from his mentor who was the head of the clan. They assumed that he was talking in non-racist...

terms, but those themes made it in. One of the other themes that made it in, he had really, really strong, denigrating doctrines against women. And he openly admitted later in his life that he really resented his father because his father was having orgies in Jeffersonville with all of the big wigs in the mob. He openly talks about this. And so a psychologist would hear this and think, oh, well, his disposition against women is directly related to his connection with his father that never was established. And they would go off into explaining why I'm not a psychologist, so I'm not going to go there. But what people don't understand is it

actually has an impact on the bedrock of foundation that was laid in laterane. And then what happened is all of these people built on top of that bedrock, not knowing that many of those things were either anti-Semitic because of the Christian identity or racist because of the clan or just simply human problems because he had psychological issues. And not to even mention the fact that he himself admitted he went mentally insane a few times. So if you have insanity and racism and all of these things combining to create a bedrock of doctrine, then you have people who

are trying to interpret that, but not through those terms. In other words, this was our spiritual leader. He created a bedrock of spiritual foundation. And let's build on it pretending that it came from God and not look backwards at what all what all past created it. The nature versus nurture played a huge impact in this. And nobody really recognized it. Well, my degree in secondary undergraduate was in secondary education. So, you know, you have to, and that was years ago.

So you have to take a lot of child and adolescent psychology classes and, you know, all that kind of stuff. And I'm not, I would not be the one to do the podcast with you on that because you need a you need a professional. Hobart always pawned himself off as a pro, but he pawned himself off as a pro in any area that he talked about. As soon as he brought something up, he was an expert on it.

I haven't heard a lot of William Brannum stuff. I've only heard a few of his tapes. So I would never have known how much, if any, Hobart picked up from Brannum on this type of stuff. You know, I know certain doctrinal things. The manifested suns, ladder rain, all of this. I know he he got that from Brannum.

This other stuff, you know, I wouldn't know. I wouldn't be aware. But he just like to talk about psychological stuff as it relates to demons and the need for deliverance so much. And as I've said, pawned himself off as some type of expert, which he was.

He didn't have any formal training, had training in, you know, Bible studies and Old Testament and Hebrew and, you know, Biblical Geography and, you know, a lot of great wonderful stuff, but doesn't have anything to do with psychology or psychiatry, which are two huge fields. I don't know that the experts, I don't think the experts would ever use the word normal that if, you know, you're this direction from normal or that direction from normal, because as I said earlier, you know, what is normal? They probably would use a term like, you know, healthy. And there are definitely, you know, people that are more healthy, mentally and psychologically than other people. And maybe it's because of some kind of demonic influence, but maybe not too. That's the whole thing. And apart from, you know, what, some supernatural insight, you as a Christian minister, Dr. Freeman, and the little minions.

Minions that came under him aren't going to know, you know, whether that is demonic. For Hobart, it was easier just to assume that pretty much everything was. So you don't need the gift of deserting a spirit. You just know if anybody's different than from me, from the way I see things, they're not normal. And so they probably have demonic problems. So, you know, even your posture, John, he would talk about this, you know, there are people that do this, like I'm sitting up straight.

But he would say now if you sit up Ramrod straight, that's probably a spirit. But then if you just slouch, guess what? That's probably a spirit too. So literally everything could have been a spirit. So if everything could have been a spirit, when do you know when it is and when it isn't?

I mean, he would just roll the dice and say, well, since everything probably could be, everything probably is. So if you had a, if you have a female who wants to, you know, ride horses. Well, that's a masculine thing. So she is probably a masculine-wise female. Or if you have a boy who doesn't want to get involved in a bare knuckle fist fight, he's probably a feminized male. And he talked about that all the time.

If you saw a woman doing any kind of thing that he would say, well, that is more masculine, you know, there are men who love to cook. I'm not one of them. But there are male chefs. So what is that?

They're feminized male. Some of the best known chefs in the world are men, you know, they're a chef, not a chef S. They're male who likes to be in the kitchen, chopping food and cooking. And they're really good at it. And we're really thankful for them. So we can go to their restaurant and eat.

And so you've got a woman who wants to go and ride horses. Well, that's... but my wife spent many of the early years of her life doing she loved horses. So she had horses and, you know, she has to saddle the horse and clean the horse and muck the stalls and break the ice on the pond down at the bottom of the hill in the middle of the wintertime so the horse has had something to drink.

And so obviously she's always in jeans, which that would have been disallowed. I guess if you want to wear a dress and go down there and break the ice in January, that would be okay, but, you know, you just weren't allowed to do things that were not normal, quote unquote.

So speaking of men and women, let's jump onto this little brief side topic, John, see if you have ever heard of this. Maybe you haven't, maybe you haven't, know anything about it. And that has to do with the two phrases, ink you buy and suck you buy.

Do you know what those are? This is, wait until you hear what they are. You probably do know what they are. You just don't know the technical terms, people out there in the audience.

There probably a few people have heard of the technical terms and other people probably haven't. But here goes Hobart. By the way, an ink you buy is a male sexual predator demon

and the suck you buy is the female version. So the male demon rapes human women and the female demon, the suck you buy, rapes male humans. You know, Hobart thought he was an expert on everything.

Where would you even, where would you even come up with things like this? And why would you even care? And why would you have sermons on this when you got the whole Bible from, you know, Genesis to Revelation to teach on, the church, John in Indiana should have fired him.

They should have fired him as the pastor. But, you know, he had set that church up in such a way. He was all big on, yeah, we're not a democracy. We are a theocracy.

We are governed by Jesus. We are a theocracy. We are not like all those denominational churches out there that operate on democratic principles. And that, you know, that all sound, his little book Charismatic Body Ministry is all into that.

The church is a theocracy under its head, Jesus Christ. That all sounds really great and wonderful, but where is Jesus? He's in heaven, where is God? He's in heaven, so he's gonna rule governed his church through people.

Well, if you set it up like Hobart and random was probably the same way. They don't want any boards. They don't want anyone to have any say so. So no, it's not a democracy.

No, it's not a theocracy. See, it's a totalitarian governmental regime, you know, it's an absolute dictatorship is what it is. They should have fired him when he began talking about things like this. So if you listen to his material, you can also read about it in Angels of Light book, the Incubi and Sukubi, Hobart just, he just fashioned himself as this deliverance minister who had had all kinds of experience in counseling.

And so if you ever wanted to challenge what he had to say about Incubi and Sukubi, if you ever wanted to poo poo that, he would try to embarrass you by saying, well, you brother obviously haven't counseled all of the men and women that I have because in my counseling sessions, this is a real thing and I have really come across this.

And I'm getting ahead of myself. I haven't even explained it so, so the, so he would have these counseling sessions with women who would tell him that at night, they had been attacked physically, sexually in their, in the privacy of their bed and bedroom by these grotesque forms, these evil spirits, which went by, I think it's a Latin term, Incubi and Sukubi, and you can study that in back in medieval Roman Catholic history is where some of this stuff comes from.

But that was a demon spirit and less frequently, I guess, he would counsel men who had been attacked by a Sukubi, which would be the female counterpart of it. And if you challenge, you know, the, the bulk of his defense would be, well, look brother, you know, you can't deny the facts and the facts are, these people have come to me.

And if you tried to press on that, then they'd always go to Genesis 6. They'd always go to Genesis 6 and say, remember there, the sons of God, they came down, those are fallen angels and demons and they raped women on the earth and then they produced all of these giants.

And I realize there are a lot of various interpretations of Genesis 6. But what I just described it to say is not at all what it says. People need to go back and read Genesis 6.

It's not talking about sexual assault, whoever you want to make the sons of God. That's the debate. Who are the sons of God? Who are the daughters of men? Whoever you want to make them, they were looking for wives and they married them.

We're talking about a ceremony at the little chapel down by... the Euphrates or Tigris River, these were weddings, these were marriage ceremonies, whoever you wanna make the sons of men. So are you telling me that these demons came down and put on a tuxedo and went through a wedding ceremony and married these women and had children and went to work and then would come home after the wives had baked supper for them and a big loaf of cheese and olive bread?

Is that what's going on? What Genesis 6 said is they married them. So you cannot pull that. What happens, John, as we've often seen, these ministers nut jobs with a screw loose like Hobart Edward Freeman have this idea about incubine, succubine and then and only then, they go to the Bible and try to find some passage to justify it or to prove it.

And so when they found Genesis 6 and it is a very odd, unusual passage, when they find that they go, there you go, there's our proof that demons, which are spirits, you're saying, and we don't we know what's involved in sexual assault, aren't there bodily parts that have to be involved in order for that to happen without being anymore explicit than that?

And so these demons, well, of course they say, well, the demons took on human form, took on human genitalia, they also did that. I mean, do you really, do you really believe that happened?

Do you understand the consequences and the fallout of what you're saying? And they somehow were able then to reproduce a demon with a female and actually have children, as I said, that rape is not under consideration in Genesis 6, but weddings and marriages are.

So I'm gonna leave that right there. I'm so glad you went there, because in a roundabout way, you actually proved my point without even knowing you proved my point, which proves the other point that I wanted to make.

There are a lot of people, even scholars, who don't really catch it because they don't, they don't have the full grasp of the history of the theology that Brannum was laying down. So, sons of God saw the daughters of man that they were fair, et cetera.

There are, like you said, a lot of ways to interpret that, and one of the ways, which is fascinating to entertain the fantasy of it is the demigods thing, because that's what the whole ancient world believed.

I don't personally read it that way, but I also don't read it the way of the bedrock of theology that was created. So, Brannum created this notion, which evolved through a... The cross-pollination of ideas, called the Manifested Sons of God, I don't believe it originated with Brannum, I also don't believe it originated with the people they credit for on YouTube, on Wikipedia, but it was a cross-pollination of ideas.

What Brannum did was he took it a step further and he tried to claim that whenever a supernatural being came down to earth, no matter what type of supernatural being it is, it comes down in the form of a man, and he would give examples like the angel meeting Abraham, and he would say, that was a manifested son of God, but it was an angel, and just weird leaps of logic.

What he was trying to do was to diminish the power of the actual supernatural mentioned in the Bible so that he could elevate the power of the man behind the microphone, which was himself, and in doing this, he was creating a new mythology that was neither biblical nor ancient weirdness, like gods and demigods.

It was his own type of mythology, and when people came and tried to study this and interpret it, yes, Hobart Freeman probably didn't get that directly from Brannum, but think of the cross-pollination that happened after Brannum did this, everybody that you see in these old photographs of the Voice of Healing magazine who were attending their conventions, they picked up on it, they started teaching their variations on it, other variations upon those, and it just continued into this hodgepodge of mythology that does not really match the Bible at all.

Hobart Freeman picked up on the variations that came after Brannum, so that bedrock of false doctrine was laid, and then it evolved, and then Hobart Freeman picked it up. Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started, or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new Apostolic Reformation?

You can learn this and more on William Brannum Historical Research's website, William-Brannum.org. On the book's page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.

You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top, and as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching.

On behalf of William Brannum Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support. When I was literally 17 years old, I'd never heard of Ancubi and Succubi, and so when you hear stuff like that, you think you've been initiated into a deeper truth that you could have never known otherwise.

And that's, I think that's the draw, that was part of the draw of Dr. Freeman. I think that's part of the draw of any of the people that are, if I can say, weird out there, just maybe not healthy, different than the mainstream.

If you can have some gimmick or some trick, it's not anything different than a snake oil salesman. When back in the day, you had doctors who were very limited in their understanding and their instruments that they had, they could only do so much, but then you have a snake oil salesman, and he could do better than the doctors, because he's got magic potions and spells and hexes and roots and things like that.

And it seems like these ministers are so similar, they're not happy at all, and they're not content with a literal exegetical, expositional study of the Bible. For some reason, it just seems to be boring to them, and I don't know why.

I think the Bible is fascinating, it is God's word, and we've got so much that we don't know about it, and so much personally that we haven't had time to study, because we're limited in our time and number of years that we're even here on the earth, to ever think that it's boring or I've got to find something, I don't know, maybe it's just a technique or a tactic to create a ministry, create a following, why people would be interested in that?

I don't know, it's just not my personality. I think if you start creating a ministry that way, then you have to continue to do that. You've got to continue to come up with something new, something different, because people are not going to be happy, because you trained them not to be happy.

Just studying the text of Scripture as it's written. We're in a study in my own life and ministry of the book of Revelation, and John, we've been in it for two and a half years, and we are on chapter 11 and verse 3.

And there's 22 chapters in the book, we're on chapter 11 and verse 3, and we've been doing it every week for two and a half years, because it's interesting, and we're not leaving the text, we're not using the text to then see if we can find something really weird to talk about.

We're just trying to understand what was the Apostle John seeing in these visions when he is recording them, what does he mean, what does God, the Holy Spirit behind him mean? That is once a week in the book of Revelation for two and a half years, and think of all, that's just one of 66 books of the Bible.

You would never get through with all of it. But as I have said, I think Hobart was fast and... hated himself with gimmicks and tricks. It wasn't really that way in the seminary, but when he got hooked up with Gordon Lindsay and Kenneth Hagen, I mean, Hagen's telling stories of going to hell and coming back.

And we know, according to the Bible, there's a great goal fixed, and once you get to hell, you're not coming back. That's just not the way things work. But how is it that a minister of the gospel, such as Kenneth E. Hagen, is able to get away with telling stories like that.

He should have been fired too. All of these people should be fired from their job when they are twisting and perverting the Bible like that. But anyway, as Hobart went on by the early 1980s, he had taught so much on demons and deliverance, but he began this new series that his followers will well remember because it was devastating to the congregation.

It is here on his tape list entitled, deeper deliverance and discernment. Deliverance isn't enough. Desurnment's not enough. This is deeper deliverance and discernment. As soon as I hear deeper something, I go, mmm, I think it's gonna be deeper than the Bible.

The Bible has what it has, and if you've got something deeper, it's probably too deep for me. And I remember listening to the very, and people can go online, you can find all of these deeper deliverance and discernment messages.

The very beginning of the first one, Hobart introduces it along this line. The Lord has been showing me some things that I didn't even know about deeper deliverance and discernment, and I'm gonna be bringing that force to the congregation.

So he's admitting, he didn't even know this. The draw in admitting that you didn't know it is people assume that God has just given you something fresh off the press of heaven. So you have a hotline to heaven, and this is new information.

And so you have titles of things that read like this. Oh, this was devastating John to the people. Desurning and dealing with multiple personalities, parts one and two, where Hobart thought he could discern and teach you how to discern between multiple personalities.

You and I said earlier in this podcast, John, there is an ongoing debate, and it will continue until Jesus returns of how much in each of us is nature and how much is nurture.

And there's no way for any human being to figure that out. We human beings are a complex... layer of countless experiences and observations from birth until now, as well as everything packed within that DNA, that Genet deoxyribonuclic acid, that genetic code in all of us, there's no way that a human being can untangle even the beginning of all of those strands and figure out what has come from nature and what has come from nurture, and then on top of that you've got to figure out and what has come from demonic influence. I've got to find

out where these demons are in my life. He pawned himself off as some little psychiatrist psychologist to be able to teach the people how to discern between multiple personalities. I mean, have you ever seen any of the Hannibal Lecter movies? This whole business of psychology and psychiatry that I have no training in whatsoever is vast and difficult. And so those of us who are who have no training, in other words, who are no good at it because we don't know what we're talking about, we should stay out of that field. We should stay with the

things where we have training, professional education, professional experience. That's where we should stay and we should stay out of these other areas. But Hobart, now he thought he was an expert on everything. Ham radio is just because he liked him. He would talk about complex electrical code like he was an electrical theory, like he was something, and I actually have had people who are, who have PhDs in electrical engineering, who also, I can think of one man in particular, who had a PhD in electrical theory in engineering, who also was a Freeman follower earlier in his life when we had our conversations. This would have been

back in the late 1980s because I knew his professional training. And I don't know anything about electrical theory, so I don't know whether Hobart's on or off. But I knew he knew and I said, let me ask you a question. You know, I know this is your profession and you've heard Hobart throw out his little things about electronics and, and Ham radio. And you know what he told me? He said, the guy didn't have a clue what he was talking about. And I said, you know, that's what I assumed. He always pawned himself off as some kind of expert when really he didn't

have any training in that area at all. So multiple personalities. The devices of Satan and the depths of Satan, he gets that out of, you know, revelation two and three. Deserning dreams. You know, there's, you can pay 995 dollars.

for a six-week class today and go to some prophetic school and they'll teach you how to interpret or discern dreams. And how about this one, John? The seven-headed serpent, closing open doors to medical science. The seven-headed serpent. You know, the serpent on the pole, that was huge. He loved to talk about that. He loved to talk about, just loved to talk against medical science.

It was on one of these messages. I believe it was tape 261, number 8, called closing open doors. There's that open doors again. He loved the phrase open doors. You've opened doors to demons.

I believe it was on closing open doors is the first time that he started saying that MD for medical doctors stood for medical deity. And they just, they got a lot of mileage out of medical deities. And, and so in this series, I'll make a few more comments and I'll be quiet here, John.

In this series that I said just had a devastatingly negative effect on the congregation, because he was talking about multiple person, all this crazy stuff that you just should not be talking about as a Christian minister. And I'm not saying people don't, there are people out there that have multiple personalities. I'm not denying that. I'm just saying, that's not your field.

It's not my field. And you just need to teach scripture. You need to teach the Bible and let people work out their own issues through Bible study prayer and through consulting people who are professionals in those areas instead of the minister. But anyway, here's where he really hit his stride. He placed the people in his church just in the worst possible bondage because it was during this series that he began to make the connections for them and in their minds between perhaps why they have not received the manifestation of their healing. Maybe this is why you

can't see any better and you have claimed healing and you still can't drive. Maybe this is why you went back on your medication. This is why you have not experienced answers to all of your prayers because there are open demonic doors and the open demonic doors. Perhaps this was new for faith assembly. Perhaps are connected to medicines and vaccinations and things that happened to you when you were very, very young. So consequently, you have people at faith assembly contacting parents whom they had already shunned because they're not a part of the church here.

Now, oh no, mom, I do need to talk to you after all, even though I have shunned you because you celebrate Christmas and you wear pants and you do things that are ungodly. Now, mom and dad, I need you guys after all because I need my vaccination record from when I was a child. I need to know what kinds of medicines you had me on when I was two years old and five years old and seven years old because Dr. Freeman said that demons remember these crazy writings of his demons are behind everything and the names of drugs aren't just the name that some pharmacy student came up with.

They're actually the names of ancient demons and until the way you go through deliverance according to Hobart is you have to name the demons by name. You can't just do any whole whole general thing like be gone, get the behind me Satan. You have to name these demons and then delict take yourself through deliverance for them and then be free. So you can just imagine John, you've got these these young people who have not been healed, who have not experienced divine prosperity, who have not had answers to their prayers like Hobart taught you can have.

And now they're being thrown this lifeline. Here is the secret. Here is why it hasn't happened. We're back to the subject of demons and deliverance. You've got to take yourself through deliverance. And so, you know, it was in the first place in their minds a godsend because now I can receive the answers to my prayers. And so they're dialing up mom and dad, finding out the names of the medicines and the vaccinations and then taking themselves through deliverance by saying, you know, I repudiate as demonic the use of penicillin in my body when I was a child.

It was against my knowledge because I was a child, but the devil still was able to send demons into me and I'm going to rebuke them, plead the blood of Jesus against them and be free from them.

And so it was a train wreck, John. People went down this path left and right contacting parents, trying to be set free. And of course, after they went through all of that, do you think that they had any better health or any better finances or no, they definitely did.

When I began my consulting business as an IT professional, I had already accomplished many of the different roles in IT, everything from the entry level engineer all the way up to the CTO, CIO level, and so I could do all the pieces in between. And I made the mistake when I started my consulting business of trying to do all of those pieces, rather than hiring people who are specialized in each skill. It's a big mistake if you've ever been in business, you know what I'm talking about. When you get the right person for the right

job, it's like they say you get the right tool for the right job, you're going to get the job done more efficiently. The problem that I see is whenever these people rise up to a central figure, they think they know everything, every single thing, not just spiritual things, they know everything.

And you're talking about the medication, all of this. I watch ministers telling you how they had this absurd technique that didn't require herbs or medicine or anything to heal their body and God healed them because they did this technique. Well, what they're doing essentially is medical science, but it's incorrect medical science. The technique, maybe it works, but I would say nine times, I'd say 10 times out of 10, I never saw anything of substance there. Where it gets really odd is that the people who are in that mindset and the pews, they start to rewire how their brain

thinks about the things that are skilled and specialized, even the ones that they went to school for. We had a, I'm not going to go into great detail because I'm not a doctor, but we had a person that they claimed was raised from the dead in one of the churches here. And they explained, it was a big long Facebook post, praise God, this person died right there in the pew. God, God came down and delivered them from death right there in the service. And they talked about how a skilled medical professional, a doctor went and pronounced him dead right there on the scene,

then suddenly he's alive. And they talked about how it was performed. I sent this to multiple medical professionals who were at the same level. And they said, that's not really how you declare somebody dead. The person, yes, you can feel the wrist. Yes, they might not show a pulse in their wrist. If that's not how you pronounce them dead, it was not an official death. And yet this person who did this actually could have lost their license for claiming this had it actually got out, that they did this. What they have done is they've dumbed down the skills because they want to say that

if we, if we do anything that requires training in this world, we're eliminating the power of God to do things bypassing our training, not thinking about the fact that God may have helped establish the training programs. So in the end, it's this vicious circle. And sitting on top of that circle is the central figure who's orchestrating the whole thing, making people, I hate to say it, they're dumbing down the skills of the people so that they can look better before the people.

Absolutely. And making themselves rich in the process. this. You know, I also own a custom cabinet business, which I have done for a lot of my adult life. So I've been in construction in all phases of construction. I built this house, my house where we live now. But I was over last week, John, at we're getting ready to move my work from my current location where my business is to a new and better location. And it's just about ready for us to move in. But beside our building, they're pouring a slab for doing all the flat

work for another big building they're getting ready to put up. So they have, you know, that that incredible concrete truck that, you know, has the tube on it. You drive concrete mixers up to it. And they just pour the concrete into the receiver. And then that truck with its suction takes that up, this extended arm that can reach way out far. And it's pouring out of this shoot.

And so you have this man over there. You got a crew that's spreading it. But you've got a man that is holding the shoot. But then you have a, and he's just guiding it, you know, pushing it over here and shoving it over there. And this concrete is pouring out of it. But you have one individual who's kind of standing over in the shade. And he's got a lanyard around his neck. And he has this little box. And it's got these little ways to maneuver things. And he's the one controlling all of that. And so I watched him. I've never done that. And I watched him do that. And I thought,

man, that is really cool because he's having to twist that arm and bend it and pull it towards you and push it away and change the angle. And he's doing it all by remote control. And I said to him, I said, Hey, I, Hey, I want to do that. I want to try that. I mean, he took that thing off and handed to me. I said, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I said, I would bury your whole crew and concrete. I'm sure because I said, I have this favorite saying of mine. You cannot be the man

at his own job. I don't care if he's a mechanic. If he's a roofer, a sighting guy, a cabinet maker, a concrete, you can't be the man at his own job. And yet you aren't exactly right. The ministers in these circles think that they're experts on everything. And they do want to bypass the people who truly are experts. And so what happened with Hobart's teaching on deeper deliverance and discernment is he told them I have the secret and it's all demonic. And so he steered people, he steered people away from counseling. Counseling was an absolute no no counseling is demonic.

You're just listening to he then unsafe people try to give you advice for situations in your life. He was very very much opposed to any counseling And again, he wasn't a professional counselor. Counselors, good ones, and they're good, bad, and in between.

You know, they have professional training, and they may not even have a degree in psychology or psychiatry. I think one of those is a academic degree, one of those a medical degree, but they still have training in counseling.

And then if you have the appropriate degrees and you are a psychiatrist, which I think is a medical degree and a psychologist, which is, you know, an academic type of degree, those people have gone through a tremendous amount of training.

Are they always right? Of course not, but no human being is in any field. You know, do they always get it right? No, are there really bad ones? Are there quacks and crazies out there in that field?

Of course, but no more than there are behind pulpits today. So, you know, roll the dice and see where you want to go.

I think, you know, what I would encourage people here, John, with the end of our podcast today, people do have psychological and psychiatric problems. Some people have them a lot worse than others. I just think you've really put yourself in a dangerous position if you, as a Christian minister, are telling everybody that you have all the answers.

I think some things are caused by a demonic influence and there is some type or some measure of deliverance that's gonna be needed. But I also think, John, that there's just tons and tons of stuff out there that is not demonic.

You can cast demons out until you're red in the face. But the person has issues that need to be dealt with in some structured, counseling way. And apart from that, I mean, I think this demonic stuff is you're just looking for a shortcut.

It's like we said a few weeks ago, where I remember back in the 70s, where people were saying demons were calories. And so if you cast the demon out of the piece of chocolate cake, you cast out the calories.

And as long as you cast out the calories, you can eat the German chocolate cake. I mean, I literally heard people say that that's no nuttier to me than what Hobart taught that everybody who has some little quirk in their personality and who doesn't have something in their personality that other people would say, you know, brother, you're not exactly normal.

You know, I'm sure I have those in my life. I feel like I'm relatively balanced and healthy and normal, but I'm sure I'm not in some area, but I don't think that means I have a demon.

You know what it means? It just means that I'm me and you are you and they are they. And that's the beauty of the human population on the earth. We would not all want to be the same way.

What I would encourage people to do is to read, just read the book of Acts and read your epistles and ask yourself this question in light of Hobart Freeman's teaching, where, where, where in Acts, where in Paul's epistles, where in the other New Testament epistles do you see members of these early first century churches being told they need to go through deliverance?

I just don't see that. I see Jesus casting demons out of people in the gospels. There's no doubt about that. And I don't think the demons just stopped appearing after Jesus ascended to heaven.

But however, we're talking about churches and Christian believers. Hobart Freeman's not out on the street corner evangelizing. Hobart's preaching behind a pulpit to Christian people. And I'm saying, where do you see Christian people in Acts or the epistles being told you need to go through deliverance?

I think what you see in the epistles are two things. And in Acts number one, your conversion experience has taken you from Satan's kingdom into God's kingdom. That doesn't mean all your problems have disappeared.

But you have already been rescued. What does second Corinthians 517 say? If you're in Christ, you're in new creation. All things are passed away and behold, all things have become new. Now, you have to take that relatively because just because you have become a Christian doesn't mean that every personality trait that you should work on has already been all taken care of.

Now what the epistles tell us is that Christianity is a lifetime of learning. And it's a lifetime of growth. And some people grow faster than others. Some people grow slower. Some people have more things to deal with than others.

And some people just don't. Some people who have come maybe from the situation of having been adopted. And maybe they, John, they've been adopted into a family where one of the new parents is an alcoholic.

You know, I can't imagine the trauma that a person goes through in their life with all of that. I can't imagine the trauma of so many of the second and third generation faith assembly people.

They have been through a tremendous amount of trauma. And yet what they were told all along is all you need to do is go through deliverance. And once you go through deliverance, you'll be free.

I think that the human brain and the human personality are just... They're way more complex than the human body. Hobart, Faudi knew everything about the human body. All you gotta do is, you know, claim your healing and you'll be healed, ignore all those symptoms.

Those are lying symptoms from the devil. Think how off he would be when you get to the area of the human brain and personality that are far more complex than our body. I just don't think that any of these ministers had the professional training and they weren't qualified to talk about it.

And so here we go, John, we get to the end of Hobart Freeman's life himself. After all these years of teaching on deliverance, all of his experience, his writing of his books and tracks on demons and deliverance and we get to the last days and literally the last hours of Dr. Freeman's life and where in his case, there was panic.

When you read the stories in the Bible of the saints of all who died of Abraham, of Joseph, of Moses, of Joshua, it was vastly different

than when you read the story of Dr. Freeman's last few days where the saints in the Bible, they died in peace. We're told, having served their generation, they died at a ripe old age.

They died knowing they had accomplished what God had called them to accomplish. They died longing for heaven. They died with afterwards the people having a brief period of mourning and then what happened? There was no trying to raise the dead.

Nobody tried to raise Abraham or Joseph or Moses or Joshua or whenever he was probably martyred, the Apostle Paul, no one tried to raise the dead. People had their brief period of mourning and then they went on with their life.

You contrast that with the end of Hobart's life. There was panic. The last day and the last night of Dr. Freeman's life because of this rampant, unreasonable fear of demons and the occult. The people around him, June, his wife, Kathy, his daughter, other ministers who were brought in, like Steve Hill, like Jim Oleswald, the people that were close to Dr. Freeman there in the last hours of his life, what were they doing?

They were ridding the premises of all of Dr. Freeman's past study material with regard to occult matters and demons and deliverance. Why? Because they themselves had been taught by him so well, they were terrified.

ever the thought, maybe Dr. Freeman is spiraling downward, which he did, died of every disease, everything he said he was healed from. He was a walking dead man, quote unquote, the last days of his life.

They were afraid that if there were any of these occult materials around, that somehow that was opening doors for demon spirits to be there. And so they got rid of all of that, they went down this same path that Hobart had trained everyone to, you go name the demons, you get rid of them, and then you can receive your answer from God.

And it did not make any difference at all in the end of Hobart's life. So I look and say, look, he taught all this stuff, deceived countless people, had people chasing things forever in their life.

It was an endless quest to find the answer why, why God, or my prayers not answered. And Hobart in the end of his life was chasing down that same road of an endless quest.

Why am I dying of all of these diseases? So it's a really, really sad story. And I would just encourage people, don't listen to people like this, but stay reading your Bible. For me, it's this simple, it doesn't work.

You look at all of these guys, Hobart Freeman, there's a reason why the people surrounding him at his death tried to hold back so that the people did not figure out what was happening.

It's because it didn't work. And we've talked about this, might have been the last episode of the one before, FF Bosworth, who wrote the book, Christ the Healer. That's really the precursor to all of this deliverance stuff.

He died in much the same way, and they did the same exact thing. I'm looking at the birth, at the death certificate right now, his brother signed it. His brother knew that it didn't work.

I can't read the doctor's scribble, but there are things that I can read on here contributing to his death was diabetes. So this is a man that claiming that you can conquer diabetes and he's diabetic.

This is a man who knew that he was diabetic likely while he was saying these things. That for me is a problem, but the diabetes led to like everybody else who has diabetes led to the heart disease, the heart failure, etc.

And you can read all of this, you go to my website, type in Bosworth, go to the government document, you can read it. It doesn't work. And yet whenever it doesn't work, and one of these people who are the great sorcerers who are telling all the people that it works dies, they take it to the grave with them.

And then the next person does it till they die. And each time it just doesn't work. So there's a definition of insanity. When you keep trying the same thing and it doesn't work, you might have a little bit of a problem with your brain.

I'll just say it like that and I'll close it there. so much for doing this.